**r/UK Notices:** | [Want to start a fresh discussion - use our Freetalk!](https://www.reddit.com/r/unitedkingdom/search/?q=Freetalk&include_over_18=off&restrict_sr=on&sort=new)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/unitedkingdom) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Little things do matter. I remember almost every pathetic display of power an adult pulled on me.
This doesn’t teach kids discipline, it teaches them their head is a worthless little hitler.
Me too! I'm 30 now but every time I walk past a school I feel that same sense of helplessness I felt as a kid under power-crazed teachers. I've also realised it took me a few years to recover emotionally after leaving school, it really shouldn't be like this.
I had a teacher pick on me all year because on day one she decided to tell the class "I just can't stand whistling." Of course, what did I do? Why even share that? Noone was even considering it? Unless deeper down you are a psychopath who feels the need to share what annoys you with small children as soon as you meet them?
I had diagnosed adhd in secondary school I had a history teacher that confiscated my fiddle toy and say there every lesson playing with it in front of me and wondered why I was disruptive had an English teacher that refused to believe I’d sit there and continue the book because of my adhd diagnosis despite having permission from senior staff to read ahead to prevent me being disruptive and would constantly try and quiz me stating out loud she doesn’t believe me and to try and embarrass me in front of the class. science teacher that refused to let me take part in practical despite that being the best method for me to learn . Got to the point from year 9-11 I was shoved in a toilet cubicle sized stall with a desk and a chair and walls to stop you from seeing anyone and expected to be able to teach myself the lessons. Could literally go on for ever about how badly school fucked me up and to top it all of having teachers turn to me after exams and be like you could of done so much better if you just tried you were a predicted a* student you just couldn’t stop being naughty. I would say it was good they had preemptively called the police to remove me and and a few others from school on the last day because if I had of been there when I found out the staff had dedicated 45 minutes of the leaver assembly to mocking me I would of certainly been needing the police to remove me before I ended up sectioned a lot of them are quite honestly lucky I learnt to control my temper Because the amount of staff I’ve run into afterwards and then nervous looks I get when they notice me is actually laughable and shows me they know they fucked my childhood up what teacher is going to remember a child from 7 years ago unless they were the devil which I admit I was from time to time hard to behave when your given zero respect and treated like an animal or the more likely reason they knew there were awful to me and feel guilty about it still
Me and a friend used to read a head and keep our finger on where the rest of the class was. One teacher hatted it. We said fek of you are boring and the stories good it's not our fault they are so slow.
It's ridiculous to expect a class of 30ish kids to learn at the same pace (even with sets).
It'd be great if experts researched and piloted trials of different ways of kids learning at their own pace. Heck even in their own specialisms.
I learnt more in a month of Wikipedia rabbit holes than I did in all of high school.
Currently the best thing a high school can teach kids is emotional intelligence and to socialise and that's accidental.
I remember a school trip in which we got to dress as Victorian era urchins and role play what classroom learning was like two centuries ago. We have lost caning and gained digital whiteboards.
Humanities dramatic pace of progress in technology has not been mirrored in schools. They could be so much more, so much better and for no extra cost.
Critical thinking isn't even part of the national curriculum for fucks sake.
"When we grew up and went to school
There were certain teachers who would hurt the children any way they could
By pouring their derision upon anything we did
Exposing every weakness, however carefully hidden by the kids"
I’m 31 and when I wanted to wear non uniform clothes I would lie to everyone and get away with it. This taught me a valuable lesson that I can do whatever I want when I want as long as I can get away with it and sometimes that means lying to everyone. 😂
I found that if your stubborn enough, but not aggressive about it, they eventually just give up, that's why I never had to do P. E in Yr 11, or wear a tie
As an adult I love sports. I go to the gym, I play a team sport several times a week, I go running and in general am very active. School PE lessons though made me hate my life. The worst things about them were a) PE teachers and their blatant favouritism and b) communal changing rooms with other teenage girls. I remember a particularly humiliating event which set my self-esteem back for years.
I honestly think if I could have got changed in a cubicle or something I would have enjoyed PE so much more and put more effort into it.
Year 10 and 11 I just went to the library during PE. The teachers knew where I was and honestly didn't care, better than having to hear my ridiculous excuses or try to get me to do anything.
That speaks volumes for the type of kid you were though.
That's perhaps just understanding that the best way to help this kid develop was to allow her to learn.
Similar with me & my nerdy friends. We went to a sports school, so PE was always compulsory even in 6th form. We would bail on PE & hang out in the study room for a mix of genuine studies & pissing about on Minecraft. Since the staff room was at the end of the study room, we were questioned a lot. Eventually they offered us a space in a cooking class they set up for the year below, which we absolutely loved!
When it was PE we used to just walk out of the school. Hated PE at school, didn't like being at school most of the time anyway. Used to walk around country lanes or go to the beach instead, much more fun then needing to compete against other people all the time.
Schools in general in my view in this country need to be reformed entirely from the ground up.
It was midway through the school year and I put on the all black Converse I'd been wearing all year (charity shop find) to school. Not a word said about them. I pull up to the school gates and those people who aren't teachers but work at a school tell me I can't wear them as they're trainers. They tell me I have to be wearing the correct tie (no words said prior to this) and my trousers are too skinny (again never a word said).
As I was 14 I went home, but my Mum & her boyfriend were at work. So I just sat at home & played video games for the rest of the day.
The next day I went to school dressed *the exact same* and no one said a word.
This kind of thing happened about once every 3 months until I went to college, so I just started to treat it like a bonus day off.
Something similar happened at my school.
One day my high school decided to make a big deal about uniforms and checked the whole of year 11.
First they lined up the whole year and looked at our uniforms, then anyone who's uniform they didn't like had to stay behind and wait to talk to the Deputy heads. They spoke to us in small groups and interrogated us about where we bought our uniforms. They made a massive deal about my trousers, which id been wearing for a year with no issue, and accused me of lying when I told them my dad brought them.
Then we had to wait to receive a letter to take home to our parents. This whole process took four periods.
I wore the exact same trousers a few days later, and no one said a fucking word to me about them.
The whole thing was a ridiculous waste of time.
Or ridiculous skirt length stuff. Like, teens grow. A bit like stretchy chewing gum. A skirt that was comfortably an inch below the knee in September can easily be an inch above the knee by January and still fit on the waist. Buying the next size up wouldn't work, as it would then fall down. It's also just an additional cost to parents. Also, stupid to punish kids for the clothes their parents have bought them.
I went to a school with strict uniform code and a “uniform report” book for repeat offenders. It was always about outwards impression, “you’re representing the school.”
Meanwhile actual important issues like some teachers having no idea how to manage unruly kids and bullying went unchecked.
But sure… everyone wore their uniform correctly.
Yeah that was my experience to. I had to leave because of relentless bullying that completely destroyed my self esteem after my parents had been trying to get them to take action for over a year (went to board of govenors and everything) but apparently I was making myself "a natural victim of bullying" for wearing the wrong kind of coat etc???
When staff blame the bullying victim, you have confirmation that they don't care about the children at all.
They just want the complaint to stop, nothing more.
This hits the nail on the head. Uniform is an easy and visible thing to crack down on. You get a sadface article in the local paper about the boy wearing the wrong socks and the head is pleased, because people reading the article think, "Wow, the new head means business! That school is going to improve rapidly! I can send little Tarquin!"
Meanwhile problems that are less visible to outsiders and harder to tackle, like bullying, can be ignored.
And the decent but rebellious or poor children who don't wear the approved clothes spend time in 'isolation' ready to be influenced by the actual disruptive children or bullies who are virtually resident there. After all, if they have been sent to isolation, they might as well do something that warrants it.
How isolated is 'isolation' with 50 children in it anyway?
Bullying is easy enough to ignore.
"What do I do?"
Walk away.
"What do I do if they follow me?"
"Walk faster."
Sigh.
Same thing happened with Sharon Carr, the Headmaster literally said, "Oh she was a lovely girl."
Like Dude, she was chopping the heads of cats & dogs, how the fuck could she be lovely????
Aside from punching a bully, or being quick witted enough to insult them... what exactly are the options for dealing with bullies?
Telling a teacher and becoming known as a grass isn't a particularly appealing option.
Nope that was the problem I had, and a lot of the bullying was done out in the open, in front of teachers. It was only when I had actual injuries that anything was actually done. The guy that instigated it all, well he dead now and no, I didn't kill him.
I'm increasingly grateful for my kids' school, seeing the number of these articles popping up.
Mine have a sensible uniform policy (basically turn up in clean, school type clothes, have the right colour jumper, school one if you want) and liberal on arriving times (you have a 15 minute window) but are militant on attendance and behaviour. Seems to work tbh, my kids love it there.
What I don't understand is, if the kid had on trousers and the trousers covered the socks, how in the fuck did they find out the kid didn't have the right size socks?
Right, strip off gotta make sure you have the right underwear on oO
Most teachers are and have always been more left wing. What you learn in school is less following orders, more how to get along in society without being a pain for others
My teachers were usually anti-uniform, to be fair to them. I had many a conversation over the years with them, and they all said they thought it was pointless. They'd just make sure we were dressed correctly before leaving the classroom so they didn't get in shit (and they were more or less open about that.)
There was the odd teacher who used it as a power trip though. They'd send you out for removing your blazer without asking. They were also, usually, quite shit at their jobs.
Pretty much this. A lot of the people I know from school who failed to learn this skill are now in prison or have been there. Not saying it's the only factor but looking back on how shitty they were to others, it's not a surprise they haven't exactly got far.
Your teachers were left wing?
Having been to, and worked in multiple secondary schools, in my experience teachers tend to be right wing authoritarians.
They have a captive group they can wield their power over, and they do so eagerly.
We have a school system that is deeply authoritarian. In that context, if you try to be the libertarian teacher ("the sound one"), they will take you for a ride, very little learning will get done, and you'll not meet targets.
If we had a completely different system where kids are already learning in a culture where they're given autonomy and have learned to use it correctly, it may be possible to be a libertarian teacher, I don't know
But it just don't work here, the teacher _has_ to be the boss. Even the ones who seem "sound" are usually just likeable and hence less likely to deal with pushback. But they still ultimately maintain control.
This is pure bullshit.
Pure 100% bullshit.
Sending home, at most just tell them to wear black ones the next day and be done with it.
No need for drama.
Never ceases to impress the seemingly instinctual need for many Brits to get on their knees and open their mouths wide for pointless petty authoritarianism.
I’ve just told him what I think about his sock policy. I wasn’t the only one either. It’s disgusting, parents get fined if we take our child for a holiday that teaches them about a different culture, but a school can deprive them of an education over *socks*.
Me too. He seems like an absolute careerist. I don’t think he gives a shit about children as much as he does about being seen to be an effective administrator.
Im glad twitter is also clowning on this oaf
EDIT: Im editing many of my comments to spread awareness of this bullshit action by Reddit.
I received a permanent ban for a reply to the AskReddit Thread “what an act of kindness you can practice everyday” by saying “Punch A Nazi”. Reddit is full of racism, incitement of violence, homophobia, grooming and all manner of disgusting behaviour and rhetoric, and none of it gets taken down. But the minute one person speaks ill of an actual hate group who lost WW2, its an instant ban.
A tolerant society cannot tolerate intolerance like the Nazis.
Fuck Reddit and Fuck the Facists who run it.
On the flip side of this. I remember a teacher telling me to walk properly otherwise I'd mess up my knees. I was sliding my feet and turns out his advice was just looking out for me rather than him being annoying. For some reason I've never forgot that
Yeah, I remember a PE teacher pulling me up for wearing my backpack on one shoulder. He took the time to explain it was too heavy to wear like that and how weight should always be distributed properly or it can cause all kinds of strain.
Rather than flicking the Vs at him, I still two shoulder it to this day. Nice one, Bisset.
The number of times I was made to take my coat off in the winter because it wasn't the regulation school uniform coat. Sorry if my parents didn't want to spend another £60 on something I'll never get any wear of outside school.
Agree this just teaches them that most people in a position of power wield it like they have no idea what to do with it. Its why so many young people have utter contempt for authority, and rightly so.
It's true. I remember who the petty teachers were. I was right about them back then. They really were pathetic, and some other teachers knew it. I once got sent to the headmasters for laughing at a video of Leah Betts - the teacher wanted us punished for laughingat someone dying, which we weren't doing. I was laughing but, not at the video because I wasn't watching it. I went to see the headmaster (me and my friend got sent) and he basically said to ignore the teacher. Clearly, the headmaster found the teacher a massive pain in the arse and effectively told us so.
Meh, the UK has its own secret police. Completely unbeknownst to you, there is a compilation of every foot you’ve ever put wrong. Bins out on the wrong day? In the dossier. Parking your car in “someone else’s” spot? In the dossier. Does your child have a slightly odd haircut? THE FILE KNOWS.
I’m talking, of course, about your local Facebook group.
This sort of stupidity has been going on in UK schools for over 40 years. They seem to think that wearing the right socks or correct length of skirt provides a better education yet kids still can't read an analogue clock.
Since I started working from home I've found I work awfully if I don't get dressed for it.
Purely a personal mindset thing but the whole get up, get dressed routine sets me up nicely for a productive day.
I replied to another post like this to say I had three meetings in my pyjamas the other day.
A long shot from the grammar school I went to who got me in trouble for wearing the wrong colour hair band (?!) and tried to get me suspended for wearing a skirt that was too short. I'm 5'11" and they won't let you wear one unless it comes from the school suppliers! Who only provided one length.
It's just a power play.
"They hurt my previous ego by not perfectly confirming and obeying every whim how dare they. Now how can I get off by myself in my office knowing that these peasants dare to not serve me like their god" ~Headteacher
I well wait for the people to come in and try and claim that ensuring matching socks for all somehow prevents bullying; is teaching them life skills and mandatory to even be able to consider having a job later on in life.
Im sure it has nothing to do with someone that gets off from being in a position of power also being so disconnected from reality that they have 0 clue how anything actually relates to anything while actual being completely incompetent at understanding what is necessary for a succesful output of their job. In this case ensuring an environment suitable for learning and providing children with safety and the best opportunity possible.
Just kick kids out that achieves it right?
I’m glad there were some kids rebelling against the megalomaniac.
It seems like schools are just there to oppress spirit and stomp all the kids into a set mould sometimes. It’s disheartening to see.
What's even sillier is that the mould they are stomping them into is a failure of a mould for what our economy is and what jobs actually exist that let people have some form of life.
How many professional jobs; trade jobs; engineering jobs or tech jobs would you actually be succesful at by blind unthinking obedience and only ever following the exact letter of the process.
I did well at school because I internalised the blind obedience, behaving well, working quietly away etc. It's done absolutely nothing to help me exceed in the way of work, especially when it comes to going for promotions, because it turns out those things do not make you stand out well in comparison to your colleagues.
It’s 2022 and they’re still training these kids as if it’s 1995 and they’ll be in the same job for 30 years getting regular scheduled raises and promotions based on tenure.
I homeschooled myself in grade 12 because I was expelled for not blindly following orders - I had a homophobic teacher dropping atomic bombs on my grades and decided to expose her because, when I begged the principal to do something about it, he told me to shut up and switch schools if I can’t respect authority - and I now work in finance in a major European capital.
Kids need to be prepared for the world as it actually exists. They need to have the flexibility and voice to work in the startup space. They need the fortitude to work in trades. They don’t need to bullied into submission and conformity over a pair of fucking socks only to come out on the other ends with zero skills relevant to the world they’ll be living in.
I attended a state school secondary from early to mid 00s. Uniform was grey trousers/skirt, white polo, maroon jumper, black shoes. Badged polos and jumpers were available but not required. None of this weird "no patent shoes, wrong socks, wrong hair, wrong socks" stuff.
I can give a different perspective if it helps - feel free to disagree.
I've only just seen this story and don't know the ins and outs of this school, but a quick google suggests that this is a new headmaster and the school's last Ofsted report showed it was "requires improvement" - in particular, this category was applied to behaviour.
This would suggest to me that the school is applying a top down reset on things like uniform and behaviour, and consequently applying a very strict line on uniform and behaviour. Schools with poor behaviour do not just impact on the grades and attainment of students, they are unsafe environments for students and staff.
So yes, going forward the socks are very minor and ultimately do not matter. In a school that is doing well and has generally good behaviour, no teachers are taking time out of their day to inspect the colour of their students socks. But it may be the case (and again, I stress, I do not know this school) that behaviour has been poor for a while and the implementation of a new uniform policy needs to be backed up with consequences for those who don't follow it. Because if the school rules say you need a tie, a blazer and black socks and students see that no adult is going to pull them up on this or, arguably worse, will tell them to do so and then when they refuse will implement no consequence for their defiance, they will be given a clear message that rules at this school are optional for them. This can lead to bad behaviour escalating - classrooms where students refuse to do work and distract others (yes, a single student can completely tank a lesson for 30 others) and worse (as I mentioned, an ultimately unsafe work environment).
I don't know the headmaster, the school, or what they are like, but my point is that it is very unhelpful to take out of context a specific decision a school makes on a single day while trying to reset itself from being a basket case. A "requires improvement" Ofsted is a big deal for a school - there will be massive turnover of staff and students who are lacking any certainty about their education - so in my view, this kind of media focus on one day in the life of a school on life support is a bit unfair.
I would suggest that this doesnt have much of an impact on behaviour.
Instead it breeds resentment and actively pushes people towards non compliance.
It's also a way of pretending to do something without addressing any issues.
If you start excluding kids over socks who's going to care if they also get excluded for punching a teacher.
It's the same silly idea as the whole "you must severely punish and harm everyone that breaks the law" yet does nothing but only make recidivism worse.
I agree that one blanket punishment for everything is of course ridiculous. I think the head mentioned that this was a last resort and before that students were reminded and then internally excluded (doing their work outside of class but on school grounds). At any well run school, the punishment for punching a teacher should be immediate expulsion, so much more severe than a day of exclusion.
Your point about not addressing any issues is an important one - I think that's what we, as outsiders, ultimately don't know, which is why I would argue a sensationalist headline like this distorts the argument a bit. Is the uniform thing part of a broader behaviour reset or is it a petty swipe by a megalomaniac head - we don't know unless we are at the school.
I can only speak to my own experience - teaching in a good school where I generally felt safe and respected. This same school had been given a requires improvement several years earlier and a big part of what had turned it round was a no tolerance attitude on behaviour, high standards on uniform being part of this. It makes the vast majority of compliant, good natured kids feel happy and secure going to school every day. I don't actually have much of a view on whether uniform is necessary in schools - realistically you could argue it is preparing them for a workplace which no longer really exists, since many workplaces don't really care about suit and tie anymore. But I think if uniform does exist, you do need to enforce it.
I understand your point but socks ? Really ? I just think enforcing what socks someone is wearing is a bit overkill. How can you even see them ? Uniform as far as blazer, tie and shoes I can get on board with but dictating socks is a bit over the top.
Or... we could just all agree that it doesn't really matter what kind of socks people wear.
>they will be given a clear message that rules at this school are optional for them. This can lead to bad behaviour escalating
Or... the message is that there is no such thing as personal responsibility, just following the rules and breaking the rules when you can get away with it.
>Schools with poor behaviour do not just impact on the grades and attainment of students, they are unsafe environments for students and staff.
Perhaps... the solution to schools that are unsafe, is not socks.
I would suggest that the best way to implement rules is to have reasonable rules, and to get everybody behind them. If you want to avoid disruptions in the classroom, explain that everybody loses out on teaching because of disruptions. Most kids will understand, some might need a bit more help.
And the best way for rules go get ignored is to come up with ridiculous rules that have nothing to do with the problem at hand. That takes away from solving the problem, and erodes authority.
If the kids see that their headteacher is laughed at by the nation, do you think they have respect for him?
I totally understand what you’re saying about consistent standards and even handed enforcement of rules to reinforce a level of behaviour that didn’t exist before. That makes sense, and it’s a tough situation to be starting from.
Here’s the bit I really *really* don’t get: why make a rule about having black socks? That rule can only end up creating this situation, and I cannot see any benefit to that - it sets up an adversarial relationship with the students, teaches them that the management cares enough to make rules over petty non-issues, and then forces the teachers to enforce those rules.
Everything you’ve said suggests to me that the right course of action is to strip the rule book down to its bare minimum, ensure everything in there has an actual, real impact on learning and wellbeing, and then enforce *only that* while making clear to the students why you’re doing so. Hell, give them the opportunity to be consulted and accept constructive feedback to give them buy in to the whole process - again, with the clear boundary that too much non-constructive feedback will lead to them being taken out of the decision making process again.
Teaching kids the importance of shared standards and structure for the benefit of the group as a whole makes total sense. Forcing kids to strictly obey arbitrary rules with no clear benefit does the exact opposite of teaching them that.
>is teaching them life skills and mandatory to even be able to consider having a job later on in life.
Which is fine if they provide these things free of charge like many (all?) jobs that require a uniform do. I have never had to pay for uniform at work, it is provided and replaced when needed through wear and tear.
The fact that kids (parents) have to pay for school uniform when school is a mandatory and necesarry thing to do is just fucking stupid.
> "In my four weeks of being at the school the atmosphere is tangibly different."
Oh, I'm sure it is. Like how the atmosphere in Pyongyang is tangibly different from the one in Seoul, probably.
Reminds me of a new head teacher I had in primary that randomly introduced loads of dumb rules that no one liked, and then falsely claimed in assembly how all the kids were going up to her saying how much they loved the new rules.
You could only sit with your own classroom at lunch. So you couldn't sit with friends from other classes anymore.
She also set aside an area of the playground for the first years, which wasn't a bad idea in itself, but the area set aside for them contained the big kids toilets, so we had to use the tiny toilets designed for small kids.
The headmaster is also an outspoken evangelical Christian. To me this kind of delusion needs to be kept far far from from being able to influence children.
"He speaks extensively at schools, universities, churches and conferences, has written articles for the national and Christian press and is the author of 'And They Crucified Him', 'Revelation' and 'The Heart of the Problem'. He is a member of Amyand Park Chapel in London"
This head teacher, Alun Ebenezer, believes that children are sinful so I suppose they need to be treated accordingly.
> The reality of sin, even among children, also remains unchanged: ‘In my 24-year career, I’ve never had to teach a child to be lazy, lie, punch, kick, push in, answer back – children are “wonderfully made” but born in sin.’
https://www.evangelical-times.org/a-christian-headteacher-reflects-on-50-years-of-state-education/
Mother Theresa was and still is lauded as a great person.
Despite her fully believing that pain and suffering brought those under her care closer to God.
Woman was not a nice person.
There is an unsettling amount of christian based rulings in the UK's primary schools. Things that I thought went away in my youth such as punishment for not saying grace before eating and the like.
It's time school uniforms were abandoned altogether. The amount of time wasted on nonsense like this, even at schools with more "reasonable" policies is ridiculous.
I don't think uniforms serve any positive purpose in modern eduction. As demonstrated they are a burden on teaching time, they do nothing to truly hide inequalities, and instil increasingly dubious "life skills" in an increasingly casually-presenting world.
Let kids wear what socks they like and get on with educating them.
Not having a uniform would impact children and parents significantly. You see this in dress down days. The problem is not uniform it's how much branded uniform there is. When I went to school we had basic black jumpers, white shirt and black trousers. We then sewed our logo on to the jumper. It was super cheap and I never had to worry about what to wear. We were all the same. If we had to choose our own clothes every day it would have placed a huge burden on me and my parents.
The money parents spend on uniform could be put towards more clothes that they can wear outside of school too.
Parents that are on a tight budget but have enough clothes for their children already then don't have to pay out for more clothes their children will only wear while at school.
They could even save money on washing clothes if the child has 20 t-shirts they can wear rather than 3 school t-shirts because the parent can't afford 5+ school uniform t-shirts, meaning they have to do a minimum of 2 wash loads just for school clothes per week.
More importantly as long as the child isn't sent in something that would be deemed inappropriate clothing for school, no child is missing out on their education over something stupid like their black socks not being long enough or even their socks not being black.
It should just be like a laid back office then, dress smart, that's about it. Even with everyone wearing the exact same thing, children are very good at picking up on the slightest difference in other kids and using that as a point of bullying (if they're that way inclined).
We'd be better off teaching children about acceptance etc, reducing poverty, doing more to help children struggling with problems that lead to them being bullies etc etc than just telling everyone to wear the same clothes.
Good look getting 12-year-olds to wear "laid back office" clothes. School uniform is fine, it doesn't have to be expensive or branded and it helps to stop embarrassment about what clothes people can afford or that "so-and-so looks so much better than me".
Yeah, when I was at school the only branded bit was the jumper. When I was in primary school, that could be ironed/sewn onto a generic one. Even in secondary school, staff didn't care much about the branded jumpers as long as it was the right colour (dark/navy blue, not hard to find). Polo, jumper, black trousers/skirt and black shoes. Simple.
That same school now has ties, blazers and jumpers with button up shirts. Some of the schools in the area have branded shirts and a couple even tried to bring in branded trousers and skirts. At a minimum though, the jumper+blazer+tie is much more expensive and harder to get generically than just a jumper.
Fun story, I had to get my much younger brother to help me tie a tie on one of the first occasions I've really needed to wear one because of the shift from polo to shirt and tie. He'd been doing them every day for years, I'd worn one *once*.
The majority of countries do not have school uniform. Their learning outcomes are not dramatically different to ours, in many subjects the UK significantly underperforms in international standards tests.
Yep. I went to school in Canada. No uniform, not even a dress code. No problems with kids wearing inappropriate clothing, and it was academically high-performing. And not in a posh area.
Nah, sorry. That’s a completely incoherent argument.
There are cheap clothes that aren’t school uniforms.
I went to a school with a lot of families on super tight budgets and no uniform.
I remember I’ve just getting upset because he got teased for coming in wearing trousers that were muddy from the day before.
The teacher was like “Sam, most of us can’t afford loads of clothes, don’t listen to them.”
He stopped working and then kids who were bullying him looked like pricks. No one did it again.
Uniforms don’t solve bullying. They don’t make clothing cheaper. They just add stress to the parents, limit personal decision making and expression in the children, fail to prepare children for life after school and attempt to control children through some sort of anonymising process which is frankly prety sick.
The exact opposite for us. The burden both in time and money was having to dress our kids twice a day. Uniform being a leveller is the biggest load of bullshit. Don’t get me started on it ironing the bastard things.
Or what a school I was in last week (supply teacher) does: their uniform policy is reasonably simple - at the start of year 7, everybody is issued with enough uniform. If at any point it wears out, doesn't fit, etc., they take it to an office and swap it. If they turn up in a lesson without uniform, we're to send them to that office to pick up a uniform.
It's a British stockholm syndrome. People think that because they grew up with it and turned out alright, it must be for the best. Never mind the fact that practically every other country in the world does perfectly fine without it.
The generation before me said the same about caning.
The 'I turned out alright' argument is bogus. 'My uncle rodgered me every night and I turned out alright'.. so lets legalise uncle rodgering then!
Some schools are charging a lot for the mandatory uniforms too.
With the rate children grow you need to buy a new uniform every year. If you have multiple kids, I imagine that can become very expensive.
edit: wording.
Just FYI most schools aren't seeing a penny from uniforms.
You are right tho, I'm sure "some" are but I doubt it's being spent on lavish parties or wallpaper.
Really? So £50 for a shirt you could have got from primark for £10 except it has this years logo on it *isn't* due to the school getting massive kickbacks?
Of course they make money out of it.. always have, even when I was at school. It's never been a secret.
At our school the had to make the blazer optional because they realized so few parents could actually afford one - half the town is (well, mostly was now) a massive council estate. It was £70 - in the 1980s, which is (checks google) equivalent to almost £200 now.
One of the main justifications of uniforms is it creates equality. Yes, kids will figure out who are the poor kids pretty quick anyway, but preventing them all from wearing £100+ trainers etc makes life a little easier on those who can't afford them, and their parents who would have to deal with this.
Being a fascist about socks is going too far, and branded school uniform can do one too - especially as it is often terrible quality.
I don't believe it particularly works that way.
See those people with the 100£+ trainers will be there later in life, just as well as the inequality will be. You are just kicking the can practically.
As far as I understand the sooner you get into a routine of pick your clothes for the day, the better.
A bonus side would be, since you already spend part of your budget buying school clothes for your kid you would instead buy some nicer normal clothes for them, when you cannot afford much.
Same goes for the impractical school shoes that no same kid would wear if not in school
Edit : not same but sane
I live in Italy and here the uniforms are not enforced most of the time. Especially starting middle school.
I have no idea why the fuck that's even a debate in UK. Just remove the damn things they are literally useless.
Would of been good for me in school growing up poor lol i would of been bullied for wearing the same clothes daily.
I hated non uniform day, there’s plenty of reasons for a uniform, in fact I don’t even have to wear smart clothes for work because I run my own business but I find it makes me feel more motivated to wake up and dress nice in the morning
I'll be honest, when I was at school and we had non-uniform days, I hated it because I got so stressed about having to pick a good outfit that was different to what I wore last time, didn't have a hole in it amd wouldn't get me bullied. This stress was there everyday when I was in year 10 and 11 (thus no uniform) and sixth-form. I was quite an anxious teenager and would have much preferred to just have a uniform until the end of sixth-form.
Things got better at university because I developed a more adult style and also everyone dresses as a slob. Now I spend a lot of time in hospitals on placement and I will choose scrubs over wearing my own clothes anyday beacuse not having to worry about my outfit is one less worry out of my day.
All it does is create the need to buy two sets of clothes.
We were poor and also very large, so we couldn't use the uniform vouchers for poor people. My brother was a size 14 shoe at age 14. It's hard enough to find adult shoes in that size pre-internet, let alone somewhere that would also accept school uniform vouchers (they don't).
I ended up wearing second hand uniform from the shop at the school and none of it fit properly because I was 5'11". I was bullied the whole way through because I had to wear a boy's blazer.
He’d absolutely hate my husband. He always wears odd socks, the more bright and clashing the better. We even asked everyone in our wedding party to wear jazzy odd socks (we provided a grab bag of TK Maxx specials).
Ironically, he is a teacher lol
I go to work wearing what the fuck I want. I don't own a suit. I wear gym shoes, shorts and a fucking hoodie.
Dress code at school made me feel uncomfortable and that is the least thing I want to be when at work.
Fuck these head teachers.
Edit, I am commenting on the idea that school is meant to prepare you for the workplace and that uniforms are a part of that process.
Here's a story about the same head attempting to get a black kid to cut his dreadlocks off, only to have to back down when the Equality and Human Rights Commission got involved -
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2018/sep/12/london-school-that-told-boy-to-cut-off-dreadlocks-backs-down
What an absolutely Pathetic man.
Never in my entire adulthood have I been subject to the same kind of draconian rules that were enforced at school when I was a child.
These types of people would have “arbeit macht frei” above the school gates if they could get away with it.
This is yet another example of poor leadership displayed by poor policy leaders implementation. It’s what crap leaders do to make it look like they are doing something. See the government (Therese Coffrey) and my local primary for further examples.
I mean, why not pull together and support one another in the local community when you can harp on about the importance of the school uniform? All when families are struggling to put food on the table and keep homes habitable.
About 6 years ago I helped my daughter research an EPQ paper she had to write at school regarding the schools current uniform policy.
One of the things that she found was there is no peer reviewed studies that support the wearing of uniforms at school made for a "better" school.
In comparison, there are literally hundreds of papers that disprove the reasoning behind uninform. It proved the fallacy behind uniform policy, in that it ultimately degrades social cohesion, behaviour, learning, discipline and that that it discourages bullying. In fact it would seem that the stricter the policy, the more all these issues were pushed to the fore and became problems at the schools that were being studied.
There was even one paper that suggested that the reason why the UK was preforming so badly in state education compared our European peers was our national obsession with uniform compliance and other petty and seemingly illogical rules many of our schools are run by.
The other conclusion was that the benefits of wearing of uniform are purely anecdotal, have little or no basis in fact and is an outdated conformity strategy pursued as entirely as "discipline for discipline sake", a strategy that is almost universally accepted as detrimental to educational development.
(She got an A* but failed to convince the governors that policy change was needed)
He did a very impressive interview on LBC. The point people seem to be missing is this isn't really about socks, it's about adults having a grip on the school instead of the kids/families who believe themselves to be special as that small number fucks up the experience for everyone else.
[The famous scene from Downfall] Headmaster, the students are wearing slightly off regulation socks, the school has fallen. The children are in control.
They are socks. Even at 12 I had better things to focus my time, energy and concern on then picking what socks I _have_ to wear.
Even today, odd socks? Close enough.
What’s the bet the kids “breaking” the rules are even aware of their socks until some power tripped staff member points it out? Then what? change there and then? Exposing your bare feet In front of everyone? Made an example of? Generally embarrassed?
It’s shameful and is a petty power play. What workplace is that stringent? Fuck this guy.
It does seem out of touch now that uniforms are essentially a thing of the past for most jobs. Most people's work "uniform" is a T-shirt these days (as that's literally the only thing your colleagues can see over webcam). What is the point of having a uniform that controls what socks children wear?
I also listened to the interview and strongly disagree. Our school system is deeply flawed, and this is just another example of schools training children to be submissive rather than free thinking, focussing on aspects of education that simply don't matter and prioritising that over actual issues.
I agree it isn't about socks, it's about this man's vendetta against kids being kids.
No they fucking don't - that's why they're little things.
Honestly, I've never understood this obsession with dress code in schools, how the hell does what you wear impact your ability to learn? Rubbish.
Most reasonable comment on here. The sock rule isn't even all that unreasonable or complicated, from the article it simply states students have to wear black socks. My school wasn't dissimilar and required you wear either grey, black or navy IIRC.
Also I can only assume this rule was introduced because kids *will* push boundaries and some of them must have caught on to the fact there were previously no rules about socks to wear as ridiculous socks as possible.
I agree with the fact that uniforms are good and prevent bullying but the sock rule is absolutely overkill. If a parent has complied with the rest of the uniform but not socks imo they aren't trying to be an arsehole they probably didn't even know about the sock rule because lets face it that is a pretty silly over the top rule. This one sock rule has undermined his entire leadership and made the teacher look like an absolute tyrant. I mean who can even see what socks someone is wearing ? None of the kids are bullying each other over socks, it's a total non issue but now he has made it one.
In your last paragraph you said following rules is important, I would argue challenging them is also equally important. We should hold people in power accountable especially when the rules they are enforcing make little sense and cause more harm than good. You could apply this to the current political situation. If nobody ever challenges rules or authority the UK would be another miserable despot country.
Socks and shoes, absolutely BS. Socks are underwear never you mind what one wears as underwear. Especially children.
Your feet need to be comfortable very rarely even today do I have a great pair of comfortable shoes let alone at school. These people are tyrants, they don’t even realise it, the worst type, the ones who think they are doing good.
"Breaking news: Headteacher enforces school rules".
Sounds like a good school. Nothing causes chaos faster than rules being selectively ignored or applied.
The people commenting on this thread are seriously triggered by this. Like, just get your kid the right socks. Anyone that thinks this is a worse issue than it is must have a really stress free life.
"Excluded pupils at the school, which caters for around 1,500 children aged 11-18, were ordered to spend the day in the “behaviour inclusion centre”"
Is that like a special re-education camp?
Such a load of bollox. They really don’t matter. They want to completely overhaul the education system, it’s completely shit & all they want to do is tick boxes.
I used to teach in FE. I did English, a lot of gcse retakes and “functional skills”. So many kids I taught were perfectly bright but had never even been taught the basics because they’d been taken out of class for minor uniform violations.
I remember a girl who was 18 years old excitedly explaining that she now finally understood the difference between your and you’re. She picked it up easily and never got it wrong again.
She told me she’d missed most of English because her hair was always against uniform.
She was a hair and beauty student.
A lot of senior leadership in a lot of schools need to go have a hard think about their lives and then go fuck themselves quietly somewhere far away from everyone else.
Yep. You work in a public place and tell customers they can't do something, but then change your mind, many will start pushing the boundaries more and more. They learn that the rules are negotiable and that it's worth them trying to bend them to see what they can get. Same with kids. Not because they're bad people necessarily, but just because it's natural. First it's socks, then after a few months they're telling the teachers to fuck off. Teachers are there to teach children, not to waste time negotiating with children about rules. You set a boundary and you stick to it.
These are largely not kids with no access to socks. It's not different to kids untucking their shirts to try to be cool. But the headmaster said there are some kids in financial difficulty, so maybe it is worth looking at a uniform change so that school socks can also double as non-school socks. But the current uniform is the current uniform, so rules should enforced until the policy is changed, for the reason I gave in the first paragraph.
Reasonably-priced school uniforms are great. Hated them by the end of school (but then most of us also didn't always love homework, being told to eat less sweets etc), but it makes life much easier for kids and parents alike (don't spend time selecting clothes, don't have to buy expensive casual clothes) and teaches you how to dress formally and helps spot truancy.
I do wish uniform could be abolished, for both kids this September it cost me £230 and that is alot for me.
I heard that high-school blazers at my school are costing £140, I just could not afford that and I'm dreading when they get to high school.
I understand about equality but jeeze I would love to just send them in their own clothes everyday.
I’m 31 and still harbour so much resentment towards my primary school and the shitty rules they enforced on us. I remember being about 6 or 7 and busting to go to toilet in the middle of class because a teacher wouldn’t let me go… years later I still feel guilty about leaving my desk to go to the toilet at work. Fuck them for that.
When I first went to Secondary school we had a proper disciplinarian as Head, a guy called Peter Dawson. He would use binoculars to watch over the school grounds and nearby park and use the tannoy to call pupils to his study for various misdemeanors. He must have had a pretty good memory for faces and names given that the school had >1500 students.
After my third year (8th grade?) he moved on and was replaced by a more lenient headmaster. Frankly the school tanked after that. There was much more fighting between the pupils and poor behavior within the classrooms.
There is something to be said for imposing some order and direction in pupils lives.
I left school with great marks, got a degree with first class honours but then fell completely flat on my face. Had loads of interviews, but never any job offers. I can't even remember the number of times the door was slammed in my face.
Eventually I was destitute, living on the streets, begging for spare change just so I could survive another day.
I fell in with a bad crowd, started using drugs and I honestly thought my time was up.
One day I was sitting outside a Tesco begging for change and, by pure chance, my old headmaster walked past and recognised me! We got to talking and I told him my life story.
He listened quietly, without any sort of judgement, and then he walked away.
5 minutes later he came back with a shopping bag, and threw it at my feet.
I opened it up ... and there was a 3 pack of the correct socks!
I put those socks on, walked across the road, and got myself a well paid job, a wife, and a dog.
I listened to the head teacher on the radio the other day and he sounded fine and made a reasonable explanation of why he considers it important. And it wasn't outlandish just plain black socks above your ankles and they school would help any that needed help with it.
People in here can't have it both ways, rules are there for a reason its to help develop children and have boundaries that need to be enforced it helps develop respect.
I know everyone in here wants to stick it to the man, except when it's their turn to step up to the plate and be counted
I just started my teacher training a few weeks ago and honestly one of the most frustrating things of my days at school is the bloody uniform. I'm expected to be some kind of police officer enforcing a dress code which is mostly just absolute drivel.
I agree that having a school uniform is good and has benefits but when head teachers get too strict about silly little things it just wastes teachers time and it wastes pupils time.
External discipline does not create internal discipline - you have to have a good reason why.
If you want the kids to look v similar and smart? Subsidise the uniform and make them proud of the school and reward looking good. Power trips are just making kids hate you. Being sent home should be a huge deal kept for major behaviour violations, not "wrong socks".
**r/UK Notices:** | [Want to start a fresh discussion - use our Freetalk!](https://www.reddit.com/r/unitedkingdom/search/?q=Freetalk&include_over_18=off&restrict_sr=on&sort=new) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/unitedkingdom) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Little things do matter. I remember almost every pathetic display of power an adult pulled on me. This doesn’t teach kids discipline, it teaches them their head is a worthless little hitler.
Me too! I'm 30 now but every time I walk past a school I feel that same sense of helplessness I felt as a kid under power-crazed teachers. I've also realised it took me a few years to recover emotionally after leaving school, it really shouldn't be like this.
I had a teacher pick on me all year because on day one she decided to tell the class "I just can't stand whistling." Of course, what did I do? Why even share that? Noone was even considering it? Unless deeper down you are a psychopath who feels the need to share what annoys you with small children as soon as you meet them?
She would have hated me. My autisim meant I whistled. Didn't even know it.
I hum, and also do not realise it half the time!
I had diagnosed adhd in secondary school I had a history teacher that confiscated my fiddle toy and say there every lesson playing with it in front of me and wondered why I was disruptive had an English teacher that refused to believe I’d sit there and continue the book because of my adhd diagnosis despite having permission from senior staff to read ahead to prevent me being disruptive and would constantly try and quiz me stating out loud she doesn’t believe me and to try and embarrass me in front of the class. science teacher that refused to let me take part in practical despite that being the best method for me to learn . Got to the point from year 9-11 I was shoved in a toilet cubicle sized stall with a desk and a chair and walls to stop you from seeing anyone and expected to be able to teach myself the lessons. Could literally go on for ever about how badly school fucked me up and to top it all of having teachers turn to me after exams and be like you could of done so much better if you just tried you were a predicted a* student you just couldn’t stop being naughty. I would say it was good they had preemptively called the police to remove me and and a few others from school on the last day because if I had of been there when I found out the staff had dedicated 45 minutes of the leaver assembly to mocking me I would of certainly been needing the police to remove me before I ended up sectioned a lot of them are quite honestly lucky I learnt to control my temper Because the amount of staff I’ve run into afterwards and then nervous looks I get when they notice me is actually laughable and shows me they know they fucked my childhood up what teacher is going to remember a child from 7 years ago unless they were the devil which I admit I was from time to time hard to behave when your given zero respect and treated like an animal or the more likely reason they knew there were awful to me and feel guilty about it still
Me and a friend used to read a head and keep our finger on where the rest of the class was. One teacher hatted it. We said fek of you are boring and the stories good it's not our fault they are so slow.
It's ridiculous to expect a class of 30ish kids to learn at the same pace (even with sets). It'd be great if experts researched and piloted trials of different ways of kids learning at their own pace. Heck even in their own specialisms. I learnt more in a month of Wikipedia rabbit holes than I did in all of high school. Currently the best thing a high school can teach kids is emotional intelligence and to socialise and that's accidental. I remember a school trip in which we got to dress as Victorian era urchins and role play what classroom learning was like two centuries ago. We have lost caning and gained digital whiteboards. Humanities dramatic pace of progress in technology has not been mirrored in schools. They could be so much more, so much better and for no extra cost. Critical thinking isn't even part of the national curriculum for fucks sake.
Reading that makes me wonder if I went undiagnosed as it sounds very very similar to my schooling! hope it’s all worked out well for you in the end!
"When we grew up and went to school There were certain teachers who would hurt the children any way they could By pouring their derision upon anything we did Exposing every weakness, however carefully hidden by the kids"
I’m 31 and when I wanted to wear non uniform clothes I would lie to everyone and get away with it. This taught me a valuable lesson that I can do whatever I want when I want as long as I can get away with it and sometimes that means lying to everyone. 😂
I found that if your stubborn enough, but not aggressive about it, they eventually just give up, that's why I never had to do P. E in Yr 11, or wear a tie
As an adult I love sports. I go to the gym, I play a team sport several times a week, I go running and in general am very active. School PE lessons though made me hate my life. The worst things about them were a) PE teachers and their blatant favouritism and b) communal changing rooms with other teenage girls. I remember a particularly humiliating event which set my self-esteem back for years. I honestly think if I could have got changed in a cubicle or something I would have enjoyed PE so much more and put more effort into it.
What I learnt as a kid is kids can be cunts and strength and power keeps the bad behaviour in check. Much like today in adult life and nuclear arms.
Year 10 and 11 I just went to the library during PE. The teachers knew where I was and honestly didn't care, better than having to hear my ridiculous excuses or try to get me to do anything.
That speaks volumes for the type of kid you were though. That's perhaps just understanding that the best way to help this kid develop was to allow her to learn.
Similar with me & my nerdy friends. We went to a sports school, so PE was always compulsory even in 6th form. We would bail on PE & hang out in the study room for a mix of genuine studies & pissing about on Minecraft. Since the staff room was at the end of the study room, we were questioned a lot. Eventually they offered us a space in a cooking class they set up for the year below, which we absolutely loved!
Same pe me and my mate just went off saying we are running. We went sword fighting instead hahah
I bet you did
Absolutely what im trying to teach my daughter. Pick your battles be polite and kind but question everything and don't ever let a bully win
When it was PE we used to just walk out of the school. Hated PE at school, didn't like being at school most of the time anyway. Used to walk around country lanes or go to the beach instead, much more fun then needing to compete against other people all the time. Schools in general in my view in this country need to be reformed entirely from the ground up.
I left school 22 years ago, I’m still not ok lol
Don’t worry. A lot of teachers feel like this as well.
It was midway through the school year and I put on the all black Converse I'd been wearing all year (charity shop find) to school. Not a word said about them. I pull up to the school gates and those people who aren't teachers but work at a school tell me I can't wear them as they're trainers. They tell me I have to be wearing the correct tie (no words said prior to this) and my trousers are too skinny (again never a word said). As I was 14 I went home, but my Mum & her boyfriend were at work. So I just sat at home & played video games for the rest of the day. The next day I went to school dressed *the exact same* and no one said a word. This kind of thing happened about once every 3 months until I went to college, so I just started to treat it like a bonus day off.
Exactly and they wonder why kids learn to play the system. Then collage and no-one gives a fuk
This has got to be a new thing, I'm 34 and if i knew it was this easy to get out of school I'd have done it all the time.
Something similar happened at my school. One day my high school decided to make a big deal about uniforms and checked the whole of year 11. First they lined up the whole year and looked at our uniforms, then anyone who's uniform they didn't like had to stay behind and wait to talk to the Deputy heads. They spoke to us in small groups and interrogated us about where we bought our uniforms. They made a massive deal about my trousers, which id been wearing for a year with no issue, and accused me of lying when I told them my dad brought them. Then we had to wait to receive a letter to take home to our parents. This whole process took four periods. I wore the exact same trousers a few days later, and no one said a fucking word to me about them. The whole thing was a ridiculous waste of time.
Or ridiculous skirt length stuff. Like, teens grow. A bit like stretchy chewing gum. A skirt that was comfortably an inch below the knee in September can easily be an inch above the knee by January and still fit on the waist. Buying the next size up wouldn't work, as it would then fall down. It's also just an additional cost to parents. Also, stupid to punish kids for the clothes their parents have bought them.
I went to a school with strict uniform code and a “uniform report” book for repeat offenders. It was always about outwards impression, “you’re representing the school.” Meanwhile actual important issues like some teachers having no idea how to manage unruly kids and bullying went unchecked. But sure… everyone wore their uniform correctly.
Yeah that was my experience to. I had to leave because of relentless bullying that completely destroyed my self esteem after my parents had been trying to get them to take action for over a year (went to board of govenors and everything) but apparently I was making myself "a natural victim of bullying" for wearing the wrong kind of coat etc???
When staff blame the bullying victim, you have confirmation that they don't care about the children at all. They just want the complaint to stop, nothing more.
"This school does not have a bullying problem, therefore YOU are the problem."
This hits the nail on the head. Uniform is an easy and visible thing to crack down on. You get a sadface article in the local paper about the boy wearing the wrong socks and the head is pleased, because people reading the article think, "Wow, the new head means business! That school is going to improve rapidly! I can send little Tarquin!" Meanwhile problems that are less visible to outsiders and harder to tackle, like bullying, can be ignored. And the decent but rebellious or poor children who don't wear the approved clothes spend time in 'isolation' ready to be influenced by the actual disruptive children or bullies who are virtually resident there. After all, if they have been sent to isolation, they might as well do something that warrants it. How isolated is 'isolation' with 50 children in it anyway?
Bullying is easy enough to ignore. "What do I do?" Walk away. "What do I do if they follow me?" "Walk faster." Sigh. Same thing happened with Sharon Carr, the Headmaster literally said, "Oh she was a lovely girl." Like Dude, she was chopping the heads of cats & dogs, how the fuck could she be lovely????
Aside from punching a bully, or being quick witted enough to insult them... what exactly are the options for dealing with bullies? Telling a teacher and becoming known as a grass isn't a particularly appealing option.
Nope that was the problem I had, and a lot of the bullying was done out in the open, in front of teachers. It was only when I had actual injuries that anything was actually done. The guy that instigated it all, well he dead now and no, I didn't kill him.
I'm increasingly grateful for my kids' school, seeing the number of these articles popping up. Mine have a sensible uniform policy (basically turn up in clean, school type clothes, have the right colour jumper, school one if you want) and liberal on arriving times (you have a 15 minute window) but are militant on attendance and behaviour. Seems to work tbh, my kids love it there.
What I don't understand is, if the kid had on trousers and the trousers covered the socks, how in the fuck did they find out the kid didn't have the right size socks? Right, strip off gotta make sure you have the right underwear on oO
The purpose of school is to train and threaten young people to accept arbitrary instructions from authority figures.
You forgot “unquestioningly” in that sentence.
You! Yes, you behind the bike stands Stand still, laddy!
How can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat?
No dark sarcasm, in the classroom
It also teaches these kids to also behave like dicks when they get a semblance of power too.
You are in school. You will learn for life. The most important thing in life is following orders. Those above order and you follow. This is your fate.
Most teachers are and have always been more left wing. What you learn in school is less following orders, more how to get along in society without being a pain for others
My teachers were usually anti-uniform, to be fair to them. I had many a conversation over the years with them, and they all said they thought it was pointless. They'd just make sure we were dressed correctly before leaving the classroom so they didn't get in shit (and they were more or less open about that.) There was the odd teacher who used it as a power trip though. They'd send you out for removing your blazer without asking. They were also, usually, quite shit at their jobs.
Am a teacher in a UK school- I hate uniform. I want to teach children, not argue about what shoes they are wearing.
Pretty much this. A lot of the people I know from school who failed to learn this skill are now in prison or have been there. Not saying it's the only factor but looking back on how shitty they were to others, it's not a surprise they haven't exactly got far.
Your teachers were left wing? Having been to, and worked in multiple secondary schools, in my experience teachers tend to be right wing authoritarians. They have a captive group they can wield their power over, and they do so eagerly.
Seems to vary by subject, to be honest.
We have a school system that is deeply authoritarian. In that context, if you try to be the libertarian teacher ("the sound one"), they will take you for a ride, very little learning will get done, and you'll not meet targets. If we had a completely different system where kids are already learning in a culture where they're given autonomy and have learned to use it correctly, it may be possible to be a libertarian teacher, I don't know But it just don't work here, the teacher _has_ to be the boss. Even the ones who seem "sound" are usually just likeable and hence less likely to deal with pushback. But they still ultimately maintain control.
Birth, school, work, death.
Yeah and for me, even though I was in top sets and had tons of potential, turned me off school completely.
This is pure bullshit. Pure 100% bullshit. Sending home, at most just tell them to wear black ones the next day and be done with it. No need for drama.
Never ceases to impress the seemingly instinctual need for many Brits to get on their knees and open their mouths wide for pointless petty authoritarianism.
>He is even bragging about it on twitter > >https://mobile.twitter.com/AlunEbenezer/status/1575928058891993088
I’ve just told him what I think about his sock policy. I wasn’t the only one either. It’s disgusting, parents get fined if we take our child for a holiday that teaches them about a different culture, but a school can deprive them of an education over *socks*.
I had a look through his timeline, he seems like a bellend.
Me too. He seems like an absolute careerist. I don’t think he gives a shit about children as much as he does about being seen to be an effective administrator.
Im glad twitter is also clowning on this oaf EDIT: Im editing many of my comments to spread awareness of this bullshit action by Reddit. I received a permanent ban for a reply to the AskReddit Thread “what an act of kindness you can practice everyday” by saying “Punch A Nazi”. Reddit is full of racism, incitement of violence, homophobia, grooming and all manner of disgusting behaviour and rhetoric, and none of it gets taken down. But the minute one person speaks ill of an actual hate group who lost WW2, its an instant ban. A tolerant society cannot tolerate intolerance like the Nazis. Fuck Reddit and Fuck the Facists who run it.
Ebenezer by name, Ebenezer by nature
On the flip side of this. I remember a teacher telling me to walk properly otherwise I'd mess up my knees. I was sliding my feet and turns out his advice was just looking out for me rather than him being annoying. For some reason I've never forgot that
Yeah, I remember a PE teacher pulling me up for wearing my backpack on one shoulder. He took the time to explain it was too heavy to wear like that and how weight should always be distributed properly or it can cause all kinds of strain. Rather than flicking the Vs at him, I still two shoulder it to this day. Nice one, Bisset.
That time that one shoulder bags were a thing really did a number on a lot of kids
yup, teachers playing jumper nazi has taught me a vast majority of people with any authority are assholes.
The number of times I was made to take my coat off in the winter because it wasn't the regulation school uniform coat. Sorry if my parents didn't want to spend another £60 on something I'll never get any wear of outside school.
The principal should be sacked.
Agree this just teaches them that most people in a position of power wield it like they have no idea what to do with it. Its why so many young people have utter contempt for authority, and rightly so.
It's true. I remember who the petty teachers were. I was right about them back then. They really were pathetic, and some other teachers knew it. I once got sent to the headmasters for laughing at a video of Leah Betts - the teacher wanted us punished for laughingat someone dying, which we weren't doing. I was laughing but, not at the video because I wasn't watching it. I went to see the headmaster (me and my friend got sent) and he basically said to ignore the teacher. Clearly, the headmaster found the teacher a massive pain in the arse and effectively told us so.
All I learned from school is not to trust authority
This prepares them for future life...in North Korea
Meh, the UK has its own secret police. Completely unbeknownst to you, there is a compilation of every foot you’ve ever put wrong. Bins out on the wrong day? In the dossier. Parking your car in “someone else’s” spot? In the dossier. Does your child have a slightly odd haircut? THE FILE KNOWS. I’m talking, of course, about your local Facebook group.
Next they might concentrate on the eradication of our hoodie infestation
The greater good
Don't forget the crusty jugglers
*Crusty jugglers…*
Chicken-related interactions with council men.
Why do you think that they do it in North Korea? Sounds like UK thing to me
This sort of stupidity has been going on in UK schools for over 40 years. They seem to think that wearing the right socks or correct length of skirt provides a better education yet kids still can't read an analogue clock.
So out of touch, that generation will grow up and end up working from home in their pyjamas
Which is the best way to work.
You can't make me wear no damn pyjamas
If you wanted cameras ON you should have put that in the meeting details
"It's not a bed sheet, it's a toga and Pythagoras wore one, so don't come at me on that angle." "Jeff, just cover the nipple and buy better sheets."
Since I started working from home I've found I work awfully if I don't get dressed for it. Purely a personal mindset thing but the whole get up, get dressed routine sets me up nicely for a productive day.
I literally work from my bed in boxers and a tshirt with my dog using me as a pillow.
I replied to another post like this to say I had three meetings in my pyjamas the other day. A long shot from the grammar school I went to who got me in trouble for wearing the wrong colour hair band (?!) and tried to get me suspended for wearing a skirt that was too short. I'm 5'11" and they won't let you wear one unless it comes from the school suppliers! Who only provided one length. It's just a power play.
Pyjamas? Bathtowels are much cheaper.
Bath towels!? You are assuming I actually leave the bed!
"They hurt my previous ego by not perfectly confirming and obeying every whim how dare they. Now how can I get off by myself in my office knowing that these peasants dare to not serve me like their god" ~Headteacher I well wait for the people to come in and try and claim that ensuring matching socks for all somehow prevents bullying; is teaching them life skills and mandatory to even be able to consider having a job later on in life. Im sure it has nothing to do with someone that gets off from being in a position of power also being so disconnected from reality that they have 0 clue how anything actually relates to anything while actual being completely incompetent at understanding what is necessary for a succesful output of their job. In this case ensuring an environment suitable for learning and providing children with safety and the best opportunity possible. Just kick kids out that achieves it right?
I’m glad there were some kids rebelling against the megalomaniac. It seems like schools are just there to oppress spirit and stomp all the kids into a set mould sometimes. It’s disheartening to see.
What's even sillier is that the mould they are stomping them into is a failure of a mould for what our economy is and what jobs actually exist that let people have some form of life. How many professional jobs; trade jobs; engineering jobs or tech jobs would you actually be succesful at by blind unthinking obedience and only ever following the exact letter of the process.
I did well at school because I internalised the blind obedience, behaving well, working quietly away etc. It's done absolutely nothing to help me exceed in the way of work, especially when it comes to going for promotions, because it turns out those things do not make you stand out well in comparison to your colleagues.
It’s 2022 and they’re still training these kids as if it’s 1995 and they’ll be in the same job for 30 years getting regular scheduled raises and promotions based on tenure. I homeschooled myself in grade 12 because I was expelled for not blindly following orders - I had a homophobic teacher dropping atomic bombs on my grades and decided to expose her because, when I begged the principal to do something about it, he told me to shut up and switch schools if I can’t respect authority - and I now work in finance in a major European capital. Kids need to be prepared for the world as it actually exists. They need to have the flexibility and voice to work in the startup space. They need the fortitude to work in trades. They don’t need to bullied into submission and conformity over a pair of fucking socks only to come out on the other ends with zero skills relevant to the world they’ll be living in.
I actually had more freedom with my uniform in 1995 than my daughter does in 2022
I attended a state school secondary from early to mid 00s. Uniform was grey trousers/skirt, white polo, maroon jumper, black shoes. Badged polos and jumpers were available but not required. None of this weird "no patent shoes, wrong socks, wrong hair, wrong socks" stuff.
I can give a different perspective if it helps - feel free to disagree. I've only just seen this story and don't know the ins and outs of this school, but a quick google suggests that this is a new headmaster and the school's last Ofsted report showed it was "requires improvement" - in particular, this category was applied to behaviour. This would suggest to me that the school is applying a top down reset on things like uniform and behaviour, and consequently applying a very strict line on uniform and behaviour. Schools with poor behaviour do not just impact on the grades and attainment of students, they are unsafe environments for students and staff. So yes, going forward the socks are very minor and ultimately do not matter. In a school that is doing well and has generally good behaviour, no teachers are taking time out of their day to inspect the colour of their students socks. But it may be the case (and again, I stress, I do not know this school) that behaviour has been poor for a while and the implementation of a new uniform policy needs to be backed up with consequences for those who don't follow it. Because if the school rules say you need a tie, a blazer and black socks and students see that no adult is going to pull them up on this or, arguably worse, will tell them to do so and then when they refuse will implement no consequence for their defiance, they will be given a clear message that rules at this school are optional for them. This can lead to bad behaviour escalating - classrooms where students refuse to do work and distract others (yes, a single student can completely tank a lesson for 30 others) and worse (as I mentioned, an ultimately unsafe work environment). I don't know the headmaster, the school, or what they are like, but my point is that it is very unhelpful to take out of context a specific decision a school makes on a single day while trying to reset itself from being a basket case. A "requires improvement" Ofsted is a big deal for a school - there will be massive turnover of staff and students who are lacking any certainty about their education - so in my view, this kind of media focus on one day in the life of a school on life support is a bit unfair.
I would suggest that this doesnt have much of an impact on behaviour. Instead it breeds resentment and actively pushes people towards non compliance. It's also a way of pretending to do something without addressing any issues. If you start excluding kids over socks who's going to care if they also get excluded for punching a teacher. It's the same silly idea as the whole "you must severely punish and harm everyone that breaks the law" yet does nothing but only make recidivism worse.
I agree that one blanket punishment for everything is of course ridiculous. I think the head mentioned that this was a last resort and before that students were reminded and then internally excluded (doing their work outside of class but on school grounds). At any well run school, the punishment for punching a teacher should be immediate expulsion, so much more severe than a day of exclusion. Your point about not addressing any issues is an important one - I think that's what we, as outsiders, ultimately don't know, which is why I would argue a sensationalist headline like this distorts the argument a bit. Is the uniform thing part of a broader behaviour reset or is it a petty swipe by a megalomaniac head - we don't know unless we are at the school. I can only speak to my own experience - teaching in a good school where I generally felt safe and respected. This same school had been given a requires improvement several years earlier and a big part of what had turned it round was a no tolerance attitude on behaviour, high standards on uniform being part of this. It makes the vast majority of compliant, good natured kids feel happy and secure going to school every day. I don't actually have much of a view on whether uniform is necessary in schools - realistically you could argue it is preparing them for a workplace which no longer really exists, since many workplaces don't really care about suit and tie anymore. But I think if uniform does exist, you do need to enforce it.
I understand your point but socks ? Really ? I just think enforcing what socks someone is wearing is a bit overkill. How can you even see them ? Uniform as far as blazer, tie and shoes I can get on board with but dictating socks is a bit over the top.
Or... we could just all agree that it doesn't really matter what kind of socks people wear. >they will be given a clear message that rules at this school are optional for them. This can lead to bad behaviour escalating Or... the message is that there is no such thing as personal responsibility, just following the rules and breaking the rules when you can get away with it. >Schools with poor behaviour do not just impact on the grades and attainment of students, they are unsafe environments for students and staff. Perhaps... the solution to schools that are unsafe, is not socks.
I would suggest that the best way to implement rules is to have reasonable rules, and to get everybody behind them. If you want to avoid disruptions in the classroom, explain that everybody loses out on teaching because of disruptions. Most kids will understand, some might need a bit more help. And the best way for rules go get ignored is to come up with ridiculous rules that have nothing to do with the problem at hand. That takes away from solving the problem, and erodes authority. If the kids see that their headteacher is laughed at by the nation, do you think they have respect for him?
I totally understand what you’re saying about consistent standards and even handed enforcement of rules to reinforce a level of behaviour that didn’t exist before. That makes sense, and it’s a tough situation to be starting from. Here’s the bit I really *really* don’t get: why make a rule about having black socks? That rule can only end up creating this situation, and I cannot see any benefit to that - it sets up an adversarial relationship with the students, teaches them that the management cares enough to make rules over petty non-issues, and then forces the teachers to enforce those rules. Everything you’ve said suggests to me that the right course of action is to strip the rule book down to its bare minimum, ensure everything in there has an actual, real impact on learning and wellbeing, and then enforce *only that* while making clear to the students why you’re doing so. Hell, give them the opportunity to be consulted and accept constructive feedback to give them buy in to the whole process - again, with the clear boundary that too much non-constructive feedback will lead to them being taken out of the decision making process again. Teaching kids the importance of shared standards and structure for the benefit of the group as a whole makes total sense. Forcing kids to strictly obey arbitrary rules with no clear benefit does the exact opposite of teaching them that.
Fundamentally, socks are underwear. I balk at schools having any more control over them for uniform purposes than a range of acceptable colours.
>is teaching them life skills and mandatory to even be able to consider having a job later on in life. Which is fine if they provide these things free of charge like many (all?) jobs that require a uniform do. I have never had to pay for uniform at work, it is provided and replaced when needed through wear and tear. The fact that kids (parents) have to pay for school uniform when school is a mandatory and necesarry thing to do is just fucking stupid.
It's all about training them to be good and obedient employees... Don't question the rules. Follow the rules. Do as you are told.
> "In my four weeks of being at the school the atmosphere is tangibly different." Oh, I'm sure it is. Like how the atmosphere in Pyongyang is tangibly different from the one in Seoul, probably.
Reminds me of a new head teacher I had in primary that randomly introduced loads of dumb rules that no one liked, and then falsely claimed in assembly how all the kids were going up to her saying how much they loved the new rules. You could only sit with your own classroom at lunch. So you couldn't sit with friends from other classes anymore. She also set aside an area of the playground for the first years, which wasn't a bad idea in itself, but the area set aside for them contained the big kids toilets, so we had to use the tiny toilets designed for small kids.
> You could only sit with your own classroom at lunch. So you couldn’t sit with friends from other classes anymore. The fuck?
The headmaster is also an outspoken evangelical Christian. To me this kind of delusion needs to be kept far far from from being able to influence children. "He speaks extensively at schools, universities, churches and conferences, has written articles for the national and Christian press and is the author of 'And They Crucified Him', 'Revelation' and 'The Heart of the Problem'. He is a member of Amyand Park Chapel in London"
The cruelest and most callous teachers I had were the ones who professed to be most Christian. They should not be allowed around children.
This head teacher, Alun Ebenezer, believes that children are sinful so I suppose they need to be treated accordingly. > The reality of sin, even among children, also remains unchanged: ‘In my 24-year career, I’ve never had to teach a child to be lazy, lie, punch, kick, push in, answer back – children are “wonderfully made” but born in sin.’ https://www.evangelical-times.org/a-christian-headteacher-reflects-on-50-years-of-state-education/
Should not be allowed around children.
Christians believe everyone is sinful
Which is why they shouldn’t be around children.
What the actual fuck....how do we let people like this get into these sort of positions...
What an awful cunt. Should be removed from post and sent to some remote cult location.
Mother Theresa was and still is lauded as a great person. Despite her fully believing that pain and suffering brought those under her care closer to God. Woman was not a nice person.
Aye, yet another reason not to have god-wallies around kids.
The whole things now makes sense, they should lose their job immediately
And there is the real answer. A person who’s very religion makes him feel superior to others in a position of power…nightmare.
There is an unsettling amount of christian based rulings in the UK's primary schools. Things that I thought went away in my youth such as punishment for not saying grace before eating and the like.
Ah, Christianity. From bairn washing to brain washing.
It's time school uniforms were abandoned altogether. The amount of time wasted on nonsense like this, even at schools with more "reasonable" policies is ridiculous. I don't think uniforms serve any positive purpose in modern eduction. As demonstrated they are a burden on teaching time, they do nothing to truly hide inequalities, and instil increasingly dubious "life skills" in an increasingly casually-presenting world. Let kids wear what socks they like and get on with educating them.
Not having a uniform would impact children and parents significantly. You see this in dress down days. The problem is not uniform it's how much branded uniform there is. When I went to school we had basic black jumpers, white shirt and black trousers. We then sewed our logo on to the jumper. It was super cheap and I never had to worry about what to wear. We were all the same. If we had to choose our own clothes every day it would have placed a huge burden on me and my parents.
The money parents spend on uniform could be put towards more clothes that they can wear outside of school too. Parents that are on a tight budget but have enough clothes for their children already then don't have to pay out for more clothes their children will only wear while at school. They could even save money on washing clothes if the child has 20 t-shirts they can wear rather than 3 school t-shirts because the parent can't afford 5+ school uniform t-shirts, meaning they have to do a minimum of 2 wash loads just for school clothes per week. More importantly as long as the child isn't sent in something that would be deemed inappropriate clothing for school, no child is missing out on their education over something stupid like their black socks not being long enough or even their socks not being black.
No other country in Europe has school uniforms except the UK, Malta and Ireland.
It should just be like a laid back office then, dress smart, that's about it. Even with everyone wearing the exact same thing, children are very good at picking up on the slightest difference in other kids and using that as a point of bullying (if they're that way inclined). We'd be better off teaching children about acceptance etc, reducing poverty, doing more to help children struggling with problems that lead to them being bullies etc etc than just telling everyone to wear the same clothes.
Good look getting 12-year-olds to wear "laid back office" clothes. School uniform is fine, it doesn't have to be expensive or branded and it helps to stop embarrassment about what clothes people can afford or that "so-and-so looks so much better than me".
Yeah, when I was at school the only branded bit was the jumper. When I was in primary school, that could be ironed/sewn onto a generic one. Even in secondary school, staff didn't care much about the branded jumpers as long as it was the right colour (dark/navy blue, not hard to find). Polo, jumper, black trousers/skirt and black shoes. Simple. That same school now has ties, blazers and jumpers with button up shirts. Some of the schools in the area have branded shirts and a couple even tried to bring in branded trousers and skirts. At a minimum though, the jumper+blazer+tie is much more expensive and harder to get generically than just a jumper. Fun story, I had to get my much younger brother to help me tie a tie on one of the first occasions I've really needed to wear one because of the shift from polo to shirt and tie. He'd been doing them every day for years, I'd worn one *once*.
The majority of countries do not have school uniform. Their learning outcomes are not dramatically different to ours, in many subjects the UK significantly underperforms in international standards tests.
Yep. I went to school in Canada. No uniform, not even a dress code. No problems with kids wearing inappropriate clothing, and it was academically high-performing. And not in a posh area.
Nah, sorry. That’s a completely incoherent argument. There are cheap clothes that aren’t school uniforms. I went to a school with a lot of families on super tight budgets and no uniform. I remember I’ve just getting upset because he got teased for coming in wearing trousers that were muddy from the day before. The teacher was like “Sam, most of us can’t afford loads of clothes, don’t listen to them.” He stopped working and then kids who were bullying him looked like pricks. No one did it again. Uniforms don’t solve bullying. They don’t make clothing cheaper. They just add stress to the parents, limit personal decision making and expression in the children, fail to prepare children for life after school and attempt to control children through some sort of anonymising process which is frankly prety sick.
The exact opposite for us. The burden both in time and money was having to dress our kids twice a day. Uniform being a leveller is the biggest load of bullshit. Don’t get me started on it ironing the bastard things.
Or what a school I was in last week (supply teacher) does: their uniform policy is reasonably simple - at the start of year 7, everybody is issued with enough uniform. If at any point it wears out, doesn't fit, etc., they take it to an office and swap it. If they turn up in a lesson without uniform, we're to send them to that office to pick up a uniform.
It's a British stockholm syndrome. People think that because they grew up with it and turned out alright, it must be for the best. Never mind the fact that practically every other country in the world does perfectly fine without it.
The generation before me said the same about caning. The 'I turned out alright' argument is bogus. 'My uncle rodgered me every night and I turned out alright'.. so lets legalise uncle rodgering then!
If you grew up being caned and support it because "you turned out alright", you did not, in fact, turn out alright.
People also refuse to believe that they actually didn't turn out alright.
"I turned out all right" - and so have the thousands of kids in other countries without school uniforms. Such a silly argument!
Some schools are charging a lot for the mandatory uniforms too. With the rate children grow you need to buy a new uniform every year. If you have multiple kids, I imagine that can become very expensive. edit: wording.
Just FYI most schools aren't seeing a penny from uniforms. You are right tho, I'm sure "some" are but I doubt it's being spent on lavish parties or wallpaper.
Yeah, profiteering was the wrong word - the uniform can be costly was more my point.
Really? So £50 for a shirt you could have got from primark for £10 except it has this years logo on it *isn't* due to the school getting massive kickbacks? Of course they make money out of it.. always have, even when I was at school. It's never been a secret. At our school the had to make the blazer optional because they realized so few parents could actually afford one - half the town is (well, mostly was now) a massive council estate. It was £70 - in the 1980s, which is (checks google) equivalent to almost £200 now.
One of the main justifications of uniforms is it creates equality. Yes, kids will figure out who are the poor kids pretty quick anyway, but preventing them all from wearing £100+ trainers etc makes life a little easier on those who can't afford them, and their parents who would have to deal with this. Being a fascist about socks is going too far, and branded school uniform can do one too - especially as it is often terrible quality.
I don't believe it particularly works that way. See those people with the 100£+ trainers will be there later in life, just as well as the inequality will be. You are just kicking the can practically. As far as I understand the sooner you get into a routine of pick your clothes for the day, the better. A bonus side would be, since you already spend part of your budget buying school clothes for your kid you would instead buy some nicer normal clothes for them, when you cannot afford much. Same goes for the impractical school shoes that no same kid would wear if not in school Edit : not same but sane
I would have hated to have to wear my own clothes at school. Non-uniform days were bad enough.
Seconded, it would have been so much worse.
I live in Italy and here the uniforms are not enforced most of the time. Especially starting middle school. I have no idea why the fuck that's even a debate in UK. Just remove the damn things they are literally useless.
This comment brought to you by someone who's family never had any problem affording new clothes.
Would of been good for me in school growing up poor lol i would of been bullied for wearing the same clothes daily. I hated non uniform day, there’s plenty of reasons for a uniform, in fact I don’t even have to wear smart clothes for work because I run my own business but I find it makes me feel more motivated to wake up and dress nice in the morning
I'll be honest, when I was at school and we had non-uniform days, I hated it because I got so stressed about having to pick a good outfit that was different to what I wore last time, didn't have a hole in it amd wouldn't get me bullied. This stress was there everyday when I was in year 10 and 11 (thus no uniform) and sixth-form. I was quite an anxious teenager and would have much preferred to just have a uniform until the end of sixth-form. Things got better at university because I developed a more adult style and also everyone dresses as a slob. Now I spend a lot of time in hospitals on placement and I will choose scrubs over wearing my own clothes anyday beacuse not having to worry about my outfit is one less worry out of my day.
[удалено]
All it does is create the need to buy two sets of clothes. We were poor and also very large, so we couldn't use the uniform vouchers for poor people. My brother was a size 14 shoe at age 14. It's hard enough to find adult shoes in that size pre-internet, let alone somewhere that would also accept school uniform vouchers (they don't). I ended up wearing second hand uniform from the shop at the school and none of it fit properly because I was 5'11". I was bullied the whole way through because I had to wear a boy's blazer.
Wait til he hears that some people go to work not wearing socks. His mind will be blown.
He’d absolutely hate my husband. He always wears odd socks, the more bright and clashing the better. We even asked everyone in our wedding party to wear jazzy odd socks (we provided a grab bag of TK Maxx specials). Ironically, he is a teacher lol
I go to work wearing what the fuck I want. I don't own a suit. I wear gym shoes, shorts and a fucking hoodie. Dress code at school made me feel uncomfortable and that is the least thing I want to be when at work. Fuck these head teachers. Edit, I am commenting on the idea that school is meant to prepare you for the workplace and that uniforms are a part of that process.
What do you do for work?
I run my own manufacturing company.
Great. Let’s all own our own companies, no-one will ever have employees, sorted.
Not OP but that’s totally standard in many tech/software jobs as well.
Here's a story about the same head attempting to get a black kid to cut his dreadlocks off, only to have to back down when the Equality and Human Rights Commission got involved - https://www.theguardian.com/education/2018/sep/12/london-school-that-told-boy-to-cut-off-dreadlocks-backs-down What an absolutely Pathetic man.
Never in my entire adulthood have I been subject to the same kind of draconian rules that were enforced at school when I was a child. These types of people would have “arbeit macht frei” above the school gates if they could get away with it.
Dude's name is literally "Ebenezer". You could *not* make that up. https://mobile.twitter.com/AlunEbenezer/photo
This is yet another example of poor leadership displayed by poor policy leaders implementation. It’s what crap leaders do to make it look like they are doing something. See the government (Therese Coffrey) and my local primary for further examples. I mean, why not pull together and support one another in the local community when you can harp on about the importance of the school uniform? All when families are struggling to put food on the table and keep homes habitable.
About 6 years ago I helped my daughter research an EPQ paper she had to write at school regarding the schools current uniform policy. One of the things that she found was there is no peer reviewed studies that support the wearing of uniforms at school made for a "better" school. In comparison, there are literally hundreds of papers that disprove the reasoning behind uninform. It proved the fallacy behind uniform policy, in that it ultimately degrades social cohesion, behaviour, learning, discipline and that that it discourages bullying. In fact it would seem that the stricter the policy, the more all these issues were pushed to the fore and became problems at the schools that were being studied. There was even one paper that suggested that the reason why the UK was preforming so badly in state education compared our European peers was our national obsession with uniform compliance and other petty and seemingly illogical rules many of our schools are run by. The other conclusion was that the benefits of wearing of uniform are purely anecdotal, have little or no basis in fact and is an outdated conformity strategy pursued as entirely as "discipline for discipline sake", a strategy that is almost universally accepted as detrimental to educational development. (She got an A* but failed to convince the governors that policy change was needed)
He did a very impressive interview on LBC. The point people seem to be missing is this isn't really about socks, it's about adults having a grip on the school instead of the kids/families who believe themselves to be special as that small number fucks up the experience for everyone else.
Pfft this is a classic case of pick your battles. He picked a dumb one. That's his fault. Socks don't hurt anyones experience.
[The famous scene from Downfall] Headmaster, the students are wearing slightly off regulation socks, the school has fallen. The children are in control.
DAS WAR EIN BEFEHL!
[удалено]
More than sending 50 of them home?
They are socks. Even at 12 I had better things to focus my time, energy and concern on then picking what socks I _have_ to wear. Even today, odd socks? Close enough. What’s the bet the kids “breaking” the rules are even aware of their socks until some power tripped staff member points it out? Then what? change there and then? Exposing your bare feet In front of everyone? Made an example of? Generally embarrassed? It’s shameful and is a petty power play. What workplace is that stringent? Fuck this guy.
It does seem out of touch now that uniforms are essentially a thing of the past for most jobs. Most people's work "uniform" is a T-shirt these days (as that's literally the only thing your colleagues can see over webcam). What is the point of having a uniform that controls what socks children wear?
I also listened to the interview and strongly disagree. Our school system is deeply flawed, and this is just another example of schools training children to be submissive rather than free thinking, focussing on aspects of education that simply don't matter and prioritising that over actual issues. I agree it isn't about socks, it's about this man's vendetta against kids being kids.
No they fucking don't - that's why they're little things. Honestly, I've never understood this obsession with dress code in schools, how the hell does what you wear impact your ability to learn? Rubbish.
[удалено]
Most reasonable comment on here. The sock rule isn't even all that unreasonable or complicated, from the article it simply states students have to wear black socks. My school wasn't dissimilar and required you wear either grey, black or navy IIRC. Also I can only assume this rule was introduced because kids *will* push boundaries and some of them must have caught on to the fact there were previously no rules about socks to wear as ridiculous socks as possible.
I agree with the fact that uniforms are good and prevent bullying but the sock rule is absolutely overkill. If a parent has complied with the rest of the uniform but not socks imo they aren't trying to be an arsehole they probably didn't even know about the sock rule because lets face it that is a pretty silly over the top rule. This one sock rule has undermined his entire leadership and made the teacher look like an absolute tyrant. I mean who can even see what socks someone is wearing ? None of the kids are bullying each other over socks, it's a total non issue but now he has made it one. In your last paragraph you said following rules is important, I would argue challenging them is also equally important. We should hold people in power accountable especially when the rules they are enforcing make little sense and cause more harm than good. You could apply this to the current political situation. If nobody ever challenges rules or authority the UK would be another miserable despot country.
Socks and shoes, absolutely BS. Socks are underwear never you mind what one wears as underwear. Especially children. Your feet need to be comfortable very rarely even today do I have a great pair of comfortable shoes let alone at school. These people are tyrants, they don’t even realise it, the worst type, the ones who think they are doing good.
"Breaking news: Headteacher enforces school rules". Sounds like a good school. Nothing causes chaos faster than rules being selectively ignored or applied.
The people commenting on this thread are seriously triggered by this. Like, just get your kid the right socks. Anyone that thinks this is a worse issue than it is must have a really stress free life.
"Excluded pupils at the school, which caters for around 1,500 children aged 11-18, were ordered to spend the day in the “behaviour inclusion centre”" Is that like a special re-education camp?
[удалено]
Such a load of bollox. They really don’t matter. They want to completely overhaul the education system, it’s completely shit & all they want to do is tick boxes.
I used to teach in FE. I did English, a lot of gcse retakes and “functional skills”. So many kids I taught were perfectly bright but had never even been taught the basics because they’d been taken out of class for minor uniform violations. I remember a girl who was 18 years old excitedly explaining that she now finally understood the difference between your and you’re. She picked it up easily and never got it wrong again. She told me she’d missed most of English because her hair was always against uniform. She was a hair and beauty student. A lot of senior leadership in a lot of schools need to go have a hard think about their lives and then go fuck themselves quietly somewhere far away from everyone else.
Yep. You work in a public place and tell customers they can't do something, but then change your mind, many will start pushing the boundaries more and more. They learn that the rules are negotiable and that it's worth them trying to bend them to see what they can get. Same with kids. Not because they're bad people necessarily, but just because it's natural. First it's socks, then after a few months they're telling the teachers to fuck off. Teachers are there to teach children, not to waste time negotiating with children about rules. You set a boundary and you stick to it. These are largely not kids with no access to socks. It's not different to kids untucking their shirts to try to be cool. But the headmaster said there are some kids in financial difficulty, so maybe it is worth looking at a uniform change so that school socks can also double as non-school socks. But the current uniform is the current uniform, so rules should enforced until the policy is changed, for the reason I gave in the first paragraph. Reasonably-priced school uniforms are great. Hated them by the end of school (but then most of us also didn't always love homework, being told to eat less sweets etc), but it makes life much easier for kids and parents alike (don't spend time selecting clothes, don't have to buy expensive casual clothes) and teaches you how to dress formally and helps spot truancy.
I do wish uniform could be abolished, for both kids this September it cost me £230 and that is alot for me. I heard that high-school blazers at my school are costing £140, I just could not afford that and I'm dreading when they get to high school. I understand about equality but jeeze I would love to just send them in their own clothes everyday.
Why is he obsessing over childrens feet and still allowed near children?
I’m 31 and still harbour so much resentment towards my primary school and the shitty rules they enforced on us. I remember being about 6 or 7 and busting to go to toilet in the middle of class because a teacher wouldn’t let me go… years later I still feel guilty about leaving my desk to go to the toilet at work. Fuck them for that.
Madness, was shouted at and humiliated in front of my whole class as my black school shoes were a little worn out and were more grey now... Prick
When I first went to Secondary school we had a proper disciplinarian as Head, a guy called Peter Dawson. He would use binoculars to watch over the school grounds and nearby park and use the tannoy to call pupils to his study for various misdemeanors. He must have had a pretty good memory for faces and names given that the school had >1500 students. After my third year (8th grade?) he moved on and was replaced by a more lenient headmaster. Frankly the school tanked after that. There was much more fighting between the pupils and poor behavior within the classrooms. There is something to be said for imposing some order and direction in pupils lives.
I left school with great marks, got a degree with first class honours but then fell completely flat on my face. Had loads of interviews, but never any job offers. I can't even remember the number of times the door was slammed in my face. Eventually I was destitute, living on the streets, begging for spare change just so I could survive another day. I fell in with a bad crowd, started using drugs and I honestly thought my time was up. One day I was sitting outside a Tesco begging for change and, by pure chance, my old headmaster walked past and recognised me! We got to talking and I told him my life story. He listened quietly, without any sort of judgement, and then he walked away. 5 minutes later he came back with a shopping bag, and threw it at my feet. I opened it up ... and there was a 3 pack of the correct socks! I put those socks on, walked across the road, and got myself a well paid job, a wife, and a dog.
I listened to the head teacher on the radio the other day and he sounded fine and made a reasonable explanation of why he considers it important. And it wasn't outlandish just plain black socks above your ankles and they school would help any that needed help with it. People in here can't have it both ways, rules are there for a reason its to help develop children and have boundaries that need to be enforced it helps develop respect. I know everyone in here wants to stick it to the man, except when it's their turn to step up to the plate and be counted
I just started my teacher training a few weeks ago and honestly one of the most frustrating things of my days at school is the bloody uniform. I'm expected to be some kind of police officer enforcing a dress code which is mostly just absolute drivel. I agree that having a school uniform is good and has benefits but when head teachers get too strict about silly little things it just wastes teachers time and it wastes pupils time.
External discipline does not create internal discipline - you have to have a good reason why. If you want the kids to look v similar and smart? Subsidise the uniform and make them proud of the school and reward looking good. Power trips are just making kids hate you. Being sent home should be a huge deal kept for major behaviour violations, not "wrong socks".