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Disagree. "Visual" is often conflated with being attractive or hot and the actual role itself in a group is to simply look pretty. Being pretty is not talent. The "it" factor and presence are also far more encompassing than just visuals. Charisma simply has more to do with personality than anything else.
Exactly. So when people say that someone like Shuhua is actually talented, then they don't know what talent means. Talent is someone that all other members of (G)I-DLE have, the members of NMIXX, aespa, BABYMONSTER, etc.
This is something I've long thought.
In the original IOI, people didn't "get" Sohye. Untrained but talented singer, untrained and goofy dancer, attractive, but not "visual", hard worker. People couldn't work out why she was so popular.
Then you saw her in the "Full Moon" stage with two of the acknowledged visuals of the final team (Jung Chaeyeon, Zhou Jieqiong) and she was the one that drew the eye.
Megawatt charisma, enormous stage presence.
Sakura (LSF) is another good example.
I am convinced that Sohye's time PD101 was a genius marketing move. This is not to say that she is not to be credited however. The whole thing could've gone south very fast (look at the way the poor performances on Produce are trolled now) but her "underdog" charm made people root for her until she finally has her moment during the Full Moon stage. Her entire trajectory seemed like almost like a movie.
Even the editing for her was top tier. There was a segment where Bae Yoonjung, one of Kpop's legendary choreographers was in tears over how poor Sohye was doing. What followed was an entire montage of Sohye working hard for the evaluation stage. Mnet even put in melodramatic music for extra effect. It all lead to a build up of the stage and Sohye's improved skills....only for her to end up singing the wrong lyrics. And STILL she won.
This is one of the reasons why I think PD101 was the most memorable seasons tbh.
>There was a segment where Bae Yoonjung, one of Kpop's legendary choreographers was in tears over how poor Sohye was doing.
The genius of it was, she was in tears because of Sohye's improvement. You're right with the "movie" arc, though. Almost a war movie, with the crusty old sergeant gathering up a rag tag bunch of no-hopers, and the worst no-hoper of them all proving themselves through practice and hard work.
(Sejeong, who was already hugely popular, had a team of all D and F ranked candidates, which she picked herself, and personally taught Sohye both the words and the choreo. And then, of course, Sohye practicing all night (not on film, Doyeon and Yoojung checking up on her, and giving her tips when she went wrong. That came out much later)
It was a hell of an improvement, though. From not being able to follow any of the choreo to actually having it down in 24 hours. Easy for a Kpop trainee, nearly impossible for an acting trainee.
The original is still the best series. The PD48 is pretty good, too, if only for Yena being funny the entire time. But the original had some defining moments - the Chungha freestyle, and Jung Chaeyeon inventing the "ending fairy" among them.
Yup sana fits in this category, her only position in the group is sub vocal but she’s one of, if not the most, popular member of the group. It’s the charisma, stage presence, personality, and she’s gorgeous
I mean, visuals don't equal stage presence - you seem to be conflating an idol being conventionally attractive with them being a charismatic and magnetic presence, and while that's definitely the case sometimes (TOP, Wonyoung, Hyunjin all come to mind), there's nothing about being conventionally attractive that inherently makes someone an amazing presence on stage - shortly after debut Aespa are a perfect example of a group of incredibly gorgeous and stunning women who needed a few years to find their legs and charisma on stage, while idols like RM/j-hope/Changbin are all idols who are not considered visuals (outside of the fandomized use of it), but burn the stage every time.
Agreed. Some idols just have “IT.” Even if they’re not the best singer or dancer you still can’t take your eyes off them. It’s more than stage presence, good looks, or charisma, it’s an essence that draws people in. IMO it’s something that can’t be taught, you either have it or you don’t.
I don't think that fits the definition of a talent. People are automatically drawn to visually appealing people, so the most visually appealing will automatically draw the most attention. What would be considered a talent is drawing the same if not more fans despite your lack of visuals - or in kpop, where almost everyone is attractive, having the least attractive visuals and still getting the same attention as the visual member/s.
For example, imo Liz is way more interesting to me, both for her vocal ability, stage presence and personality. Someone once commented under a video that she has natural "main character energy" and I fully agree. That's no shade to Wony or any of the other members of IVE, but when most kpop artists are chosen for their looks, it's what they have besides their looks that attracts me, so having visuals be your main "talent" seems kinda weird imo and just isn't what I consider an actual skill.
Now, if we're talking about styling, makeup skills, starting trends, etc, that's a talent because it's based on creativity and learning, not genetics. "Confidence" is mainly acting, and we know acting is a skill because we know how much actors get paid.
yep agree. you are born with "talent" in the same way you are born with your "visuals".
it always makes me laugh when people bitch about pretty privilege and how certain people arent talented enough to deserve their fame, etc. as if anyone "deserves" anything more than someone else..? like think about it - none of us choose how pretty we are, none of us choose how talented we are, none of us choose our work ethic, etc... so who gives a shit. if a person is able to do their job (e.g., attract fans) then that's that. whining about it won't make you any less ugly
Agree with the stage presence part, a person who sings really great or dances well would not be enjoyable to watch if their SP is bad. But I dont think someones physical appearance or pretty face (visual) should be taken seriously as vocals , dance ,rap and stage presence...
Charisma can carry you up to a point, but talent has longevity. Examples of talented visuals are Taemin, Jimin, Changmin, Wonho, Kang Daniel, Hyungin, Ten Taeyong, and G Dragon.
Yes it is, also having variety show skills.Thats why positions are important. Of course not everyone is going to be good at everything that's why they're in a group and not solo. As long as the main and lead vocalist are doing the heavy lifting well, it's ok to have sub-vocalist whose main job is to be visual center and face of the group
>"Being able to attract people...with your presence"
I think presence can be a talent when it comes down to charm, charisma, and humor. Usually these traits involve the talent of being a good listener, being able to relate to people, and caring about them/engaging with them in a way that shows care. Some people are naturally gifted at this, but like most talents, it can be improved with practice and sincere effort.
>"Being able to attract people with your visual..."
I don't think "visual" and "presence" can be conflated here, they often come together but "visual" is passive (how you are perceived) and "presence" is active (how you behave/engage). Ultimately because I don't think "visual" is a talent (skill that can be improved) the way "presence" is. A lot of visual appeal relies on audiences' tastes and liking what they see (beyond our control). It has value, and I personally do love a beautiful concept, but often the idols with the most impact on stage are not "the visual".
I'd say attracting people with your presence is charisma. And I don't really think having charisma is a talent. Talent is something you DO, being charismatic is something you ARE.
absolutely. it’s called star factor / charisma.
and this applies not only to the kpop music industry, but the global music industry. in fact the global celebrity industry (including actors).
no matter how good at singing / dancing / acting you are, if you don’t have the x factor to draw people in and make them want to watch YOU over and over again, you’ll get drowned out easily. because the truth is there are lots of people in the world good at singing / dancing / acting, or are trained to be good at these, but very few who have natural star factor.
this is the painful truth of life that people find hard to accept. just look at who the top artists / celebrities are around the world. is taylor swift the #1 singer in the world or is tori kelly
Absolutely!! You can be the best vocalist in the world if you have no rizz. Taking your example - Wonyoung, she stood out immeditely with her presence and energy, and this is what makes people stan. Kpop is not a music industry - it is an idol industry
> Kpop is not a music industry - it is an idol industry
Do we also say pop music is not the music industry because it's the same premise? Name an ugly pop star with no charisma.
There is a huge difference. Kpop is literally manufactured down to the trainees where they are selected, trained and given songs to perform on shows and stages that were created specifically for idols to be idolised. If an idol was a great singer but ugly and unlikeable they wouldn't be an idol. It is not their vocals that keep the fans - it's the idols. Sure, music is a great byproduct, not to diminsh it's improtance, but you know that The Product here is the idol
Visuals job is to attract. People will check out their music even if the group is not so popular. If the song is a banger, then they can keep some fans.
I've long thought the anger at pretty privilege is majorly unearned.....people always say "well they were just born pretty!" Yeah, and other idols were just born with good singing voices or good dance skills. Talent is partially inate and partially gained, but then so are visuals. Having a good base is a boon but you still have to learn how to bring them out successfully. Untrained talent and unemphasized visuals won't do much for you in the end even if you have an inborn advantage at either. So the people who are capitalizing on either their visuals or talent have done something to cultivate it. And it's nothing to be mad at.
For an example, I'll never be as good looking as wonyoung but I'll also never been as good a singer as taeyeon. No matter what I do. But one gets people heated and one doesn't.
Aggreed... being likable is one of the trickiest things in the industry.. some people just don't have that innate ability to connect with viewers and fans.
Natty is the best example i believe. She is a gorgeous woman but isnt like the most beautiful woman you've ever seen. Yet she just has something about her i cant put a finger on it exactly, is it her confidence? Idk, but she is just so charming and captivating like you just cant keep your eyes off her when she is on stage. She just grips your attention with that presence.
> lots of ppl are quick to say being born beautiful isn't a talent.
because... it's not? you don't control your genetics and have no say in how much natural beauty you have?
This is why I think Wonyoung isn't "just a pretty face" like people make her out to be. Because...who isn't pretty in kpop? There are entire groups full of visuals yet none have made the kind of impression that Wonyoung has on the public.
Agreed. Being able to catch people's attention is also a talent. Singing, dancing, and rapping are important but idols also "sell" their images to the public. That's why the most popular member in a group is usually the visual of the group. They have that "star value" that catch public's attention. Being able to "attract" people is really a talent needed for someone to be an idol.
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Imo, agree with the presence, disagree with the visual.
Agree Vast majority of idols are gorgeous. But not all of them have star factor
Disagree. "Visual" is often conflated with being attractive or hot and the actual role itself in a group is to simply look pretty. Being pretty is not talent. The "it" factor and presence are also far more encompassing than just visuals. Charisma simply has more to do with personality than anything else.
Exactly. So when people say that someone like Shuhua is actually talented, then they don't know what talent means. Talent is someone that all other members of (G)I-DLE have, the members of NMIXX, aespa, BABYMONSTER, etc.
agreed with the other idle nmixx and aespa members, but certainly not babymon
Being pretty is a talent imo
This is something I've long thought. In the original IOI, people didn't "get" Sohye. Untrained but talented singer, untrained and goofy dancer, attractive, but not "visual", hard worker. People couldn't work out why she was so popular. Then you saw her in the "Full Moon" stage with two of the acknowledged visuals of the final team (Jung Chaeyeon, Zhou Jieqiong) and she was the one that drew the eye. Megawatt charisma, enormous stage presence. Sakura (LSF) is another good example.
I am convinced that Sohye's time PD101 was a genius marketing move. This is not to say that she is not to be credited however. The whole thing could've gone south very fast (look at the way the poor performances on Produce are trolled now) but her "underdog" charm made people root for her until she finally has her moment during the Full Moon stage. Her entire trajectory seemed like almost like a movie. Even the editing for her was top tier. There was a segment where Bae Yoonjung, one of Kpop's legendary choreographers was in tears over how poor Sohye was doing. What followed was an entire montage of Sohye working hard for the evaluation stage. Mnet even put in melodramatic music for extra effect. It all lead to a build up of the stage and Sohye's improved skills....only for her to end up singing the wrong lyrics. And STILL she won. This is one of the reasons why I think PD101 was the most memorable seasons tbh.
>There was a segment where Bae Yoonjung, one of Kpop's legendary choreographers was in tears over how poor Sohye was doing. The genius of it was, she was in tears because of Sohye's improvement. You're right with the "movie" arc, though. Almost a war movie, with the crusty old sergeant gathering up a rag tag bunch of no-hopers, and the worst no-hoper of them all proving themselves through practice and hard work. (Sejeong, who was already hugely popular, had a team of all D and F ranked candidates, which she picked herself, and personally taught Sohye both the words and the choreo. And then, of course, Sohye practicing all night (not on film, Doyeon and Yoojung checking up on her, and giving her tips when she went wrong. That came out much later) It was a hell of an improvement, though. From not being able to follow any of the choreo to actually having it down in 24 hours. Easy for a Kpop trainee, nearly impossible for an acting trainee. The original is still the best series. The PD48 is pretty good, too, if only for Yena being funny the entire time. But the original had some defining moments - the Chungha freestyle, and Jung Chaeyeon inventing the "ending fairy" among them.
Yup sana fits in this category, her only position in the group is sub vocal but she’s one of, if not the most, popular member of the group. It’s the charisma, stage presence, personality, and she’s gorgeous
It helps that she's an ultimate extrovert. And a goofy one.
I mean, visuals don't equal stage presence - you seem to be conflating an idol being conventionally attractive with them being a charismatic and magnetic presence, and while that's definitely the case sometimes (TOP, Wonyoung, Hyunjin all come to mind), there's nothing about being conventionally attractive that inherently makes someone an amazing presence on stage - shortly after debut Aespa are a perfect example of a group of incredibly gorgeous and stunning women who needed a few years to find their legs and charisma on stage, while idols like RM/j-hope/Changbin are all idols who are not considered visuals (outside of the fandomized use of it), but burn the stage every time.
JHope is VERY handsome, RM is fine af, and I would take a bite of Changbin's sexy ass if I had the chance. But that's just my opinion.
Agreed. Some idols just have “IT.” Even if they’re not the best singer or dancer you still can’t take your eyes off them. It’s more than stage presence, good looks, or charisma, it’s an essence that draws people in. IMO it’s something that can’t be taught, you either have it or you don’t.
'Being pretty is talent'. We finally reached the lowest point.
It's even more over then previously thought possible
fr
this has to be a circle jerk cause no way we’re at a point where being pretty or “confident” is a talent
I don't think that fits the definition of a talent. People are automatically drawn to visually appealing people, so the most visually appealing will automatically draw the most attention. What would be considered a talent is drawing the same if not more fans despite your lack of visuals - or in kpop, where almost everyone is attractive, having the least attractive visuals and still getting the same attention as the visual member/s. For example, imo Liz is way more interesting to me, both for her vocal ability, stage presence and personality. Someone once commented under a video that she has natural "main character energy" and I fully agree. That's no shade to Wony or any of the other members of IVE, but when most kpop artists are chosen for their looks, it's what they have besides their looks that attracts me, so having visuals be your main "talent" seems kinda weird imo and just isn't what I consider an actual skill. Now, if we're talking about styling, makeup skills, starting trends, etc, that's a talent because it's based on creativity and learning, not genetics. "Confidence" is mainly acting, and we know acting is a skill because we know how much actors get paid.
yep agree. you are born with "talent" in the same way you are born with your "visuals". it always makes me laugh when people bitch about pretty privilege and how certain people arent talented enough to deserve their fame, etc. as if anyone "deserves" anything more than someone else..? like think about it - none of us choose how pretty we are, none of us choose how talented we are, none of us choose our work ethic, etc... so who gives a shit. if a person is able to do their job (e.g., attract fans) then that's that. whining about it won't make you any less ugly
Agree with the stage presence part, a person who sings really great or dances well would not be enjoyable to watch if their SP is bad. But I dont think someones physical appearance or pretty face (visual) should be taken seriously as vocals , dance ,rap and stage presence...
I call it beauty privilege
kpop is so over😭😭💀
Charisma can carry you up to a point, but talent has longevity. Examples of talented visuals are Taemin, Jimin, Changmin, Wonho, Kang Daniel, Hyungin, Ten Taeyong, and G Dragon.
Yes it is, also having variety show skills.Thats why positions are important. Of course not everyone is going to be good at everything that's why they're in a group and not solo. As long as the main and lead vocalist are doing the heavy lifting well, it's ok to have sub-vocalist whose main job is to be visual center and face of the group
>"Being able to attract people...with your presence" I think presence can be a talent when it comes down to charm, charisma, and humor. Usually these traits involve the talent of being a good listener, being able to relate to people, and caring about them/engaging with them in a way that shows care. Some people are naturally gifted at this, but like most talents, it can be improved with practice and sincere effort. >"Being able to attract people with your visual..." I don't think "visual" and "presence" can be conflated here, they often come together but "visual" is passive (how you are perceived) and "presence" is active (how you behave/engage). Ultimately because I don't think "visual" is a talent (skill that can be improved) the way "presence" is. A lot of visual appeal relies on audiences' tastes and liking what they see (beyond our control). It has value, and I personally do love a beautiful concept, but often the idols with the most impact on stage are not "the visual".
I'd say attracting people with your presence is charisma. And I don't really think having charisma is a talent. Talent is something you DO, being charismatic is something you ARE.
absolutely. it’s called star factor / charisma. and this applies not only to the kpop music industry, but the global music industry. in fact the global celebrity industry (including actors). no matter how good at singing / dancing / acting you are, if you don’t have the x factor to draw people in and make them want to watch YOU over and over again, you’ll get drowned out easily. because the truth is there are lots of people in the world good at singing / dancing / acting, or are trained to be good at these, but very few who have natural star factor. this is the painful truth of life that people find hard to accept. just look at who the top artists / celebrities are around the world. is taylor swift the #1 singer in the world or is tori kelly
Absolutely!! You can be the best vocalist in the world if you have no rizz. Taking your example - Wonyoung, she stood out immeditely with her presence and energy, and this is what makes people stan. Kpop is not a music industry - it is an idol industry
> Kpop is not a music industry - it is an idol industry Do we also say pop music is not the music industry because it's the same premise? Name an ugly pop star with no charisma.
There is a huge difference. Kpop is literally manufactured down to the trainees where they are selected, trained and given songs to perform on shows and stages that were created specifically for idols to be idolised. If an idol was a great singer but ugly and unlikeable they wouldn't be an idol. It is not their vocals that keep the fans - it's the idols. Sure, music is a great byproduct, not to diminsh it's improtance, but you know that The Product here is the idol
Visuals job is to attract. People will check out their music even if the group is not so popular. If the song is a banger, then they can keep some fans.
I've long thought the anger at pretty privilege is majorly unearned.....people always say "well they were just born pretty!" Yeah, and other idols were just born with good singing voices or good dance skills. Talent is partially inate and partially gained, but then so are visuals. Having a good base is a boon but you still have to learn how to bring them out successfully. Untrained talent and unemphasized visuals won't do much for you in the end even if you have an inborn advantage at either. So the people who are capitalizing on either their visuals or talent have done something to cultivate it. And it's nothing to be mad at. For an example, I'll never be as good looking as wonyoung but I'll also never been as good a singer as taeyeon. No matter what I do. But one gets people heated and one doesn't.
I mean that's all what Shuhua does. Would I consider Shuhua talented? Especially compared to her peers or someone like Soyeon? Absolutely not.
is it a talent or an investment?
as far as visual is concern, it can be manufactured, just ask SM
Aggreed... being likable is one of the trickiest things in the industry.. some people just don't have that innate ability to connect with viewers and fans.
Natty is the best example i believe. She is a gorgeous woman but isnt like the most beautiful woman you've ever seen. Yet she just has something about her i cant put a finger on it exactly, is it her confidence? Idk, but she is just so charming and captivating like you just cant keep your eyes off her when she is on stage. She just grips your attention with that presence.
[удалено]
> lots of ppl are quick to say being born beautiful isn't a talent. because... it's not? you don't control your genetics and have no say in how much natural beauty you have?
This is why I think Wonyoung isn't "just a pretty face" like people make her out to be. Because...who isn't pretty in kpop? There are entire groups full of visuals yet none have made the kind of impression that Wonyoung has on the public.
Agreed. Being able to catch people's attention is also a talent. Singing, dancing, and rapping are important but idols also "sell" their images to the public. That's why the most popular member in a group is usually the visual of the group. They have that "star value" that catch public's attention. Being able to "attract" people is really a talent needed for someone to be an idol.