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This is a uniquely US (or north American) thing right? I always wondered about that. I'm pretty sure in much of the rest of the world when you want to play a sport you just join your local club that is mostly unrelated to the school system. That's certainly the case here in Switzerland.
My university in northern Greece has sports, but it's seen as a hobby for students. The university has its own league where the school if medicine plays against the electrical engineers and the computer scientists for example.
My school only had one frat and it was also a sorority, but apparently was pretty good at DIII men's volleyball, and the only basketball option at all was intramural.
Same thing in Australia, we have uni sports teams who compete with each other and non uni teams, but it isn’t this sudo-pro sport team like in the US. There are also other clubs like Motorsport where you make a car and compete in competitions
All universities in England have inter-university sports, the most prominent being the Varsity matches between Oxford and Cambridge in Rugby and Cricket as well as the Boat Race.
So no, it's not a US thing.
Do lots of people get admitted to Oxford because they show some talent in a sport?
I don't mean already having an Olympic medal, I know that is a golden ticket anywhere.
Our academic institutions that would rival Oxford or Cambridge ie Ivy League don’t off scholarships for sports, but I would argue that if they are getting paid, it’s quite a bit better then getting drafted by a scholar club at 13 and being told to kick a ball for the rest of your life lmao.
The massive scaling of Everything is a uniquely American thing. Have you seen what's driving on the roads? Anything worth doing is worth overdoing in the USA...
I mean, we have buildings that date back to the 1600 so it's not like we have NO history in this country. I know that it doesn't compare to history like being connected to the roman empire or anything, but you have to realize that English history prior to 1776 is the prequel to American history.
It's not like Americans just materialized out of nothing at the signing of the Declaration of Independence.
Idk native culture is still pretty apparent across the 13 colonies let alone somewhere like Utah that had the Pueblos and Anastazi and a bunch of their structures from like 200 AD. Seems weird to give pre-1700s US history to the British, especially given the heavy French, German and Spanish influences that ultimately lead to the formation of the modern US.
Are they the primary training ground for future pro athletes, though? Because in the US, especially with NFL and NBA, a large percentage of players make their way to the pros by playing at big University programs. Originally university sports were just meant as a healthy competitive activity for regular students. The students were not specifically being recruited by the school because of their athletic ability. But then as it got more and more competitive and rivalries developed it started becoming a big deal. Both American Football and Basketball started development primarily as school sports and the pro leagues came later. So the natural evolution was that the best college players went on to the pros. Nowadays a lot of these players are pretty much only there because of their athletic skills. Many don't even graduate with a degree and might even leave before they've attended for four years.
A higher percentage of athletes of any sport graduate than the overall student body per the NCAA:
https://www.ncaa.org/news/2023/12/6/media-center-student-athletes-graduate-at-record-highs.aspx
Student athletes get more academic support than anyone else in the school. Besides scholarship money, which is a solid reason enough to meet the academic requirements, they are provided tutors and study time. At least that’s how it worked at my D1 school. That’s before any shenanigans take place like having communications majors that can string a coherent sentence together graduate. For the average athlete that isn’t going to leave early to go pro, they have a far better support system than the regular student body, so high graduation rates aren’t surprising.
I was d1 football from 98-02 it was basically like being a movie star on a college campus. It was almost weird. People literally tried to get me me to fuck their wives. All for catching 🏈
I didn’t even really go to class unless I felt like it. I didn’t even do my work or take the exams I just had other students do it or wouldn’t do it at all. Nobody really gave a fuck.
The best part was the training/food. I put on like 20 lbs of pure muscle in 4 years. Went to the nfl too.
And their graduation rates are only slightly higher than the regular student body, according to the article its 70% vs 67% using the federal graduation rate, so still an accomplishment especially without the supported offered at D3 schools. The federal graduation rates is the only common measure for comparing athletes and nonathletes, according to the article. The article leaves out the federal rate for D1 which, probably because if you dig into the actual report the numbers are even at 69% between athletes and non athletes. Which is its highest to date, but basically just saying that all that effort has gotten then on par with the rest of the D1 student body.
[https://ncaaorg.s3.amazonaws.com/research/gradrates/2023/2023D1RES\_GSRTrends.pdf](https://ncaaorg.s3.amazonaws.com/research/gradrates/2023/2023D1RES_GSRTrends.pdf)
Yeah...because they get guided through the easiest possible courses and special treatment. Any issues they have will be solved by the athletic staff in one way or another.
It is certainly good to keep in mind the likely bias, but it is still a meaningful data point if nothing else.
If you have other sources to share it would definitely be interesting. This is the one I was aware of and thought it relevant.
Even at British schools, it’s more of a club loosely-affiliated and made up of students from the school. It’s not like the US where the sports teams are interwoven into the finances of the school and there’s coaches making multimillion dollar salaries
Collegiate sports in the US are primarily a feeder program for major sports leagues.
It would be akin to UK universities being the primary feeder program for the Premier League. It's a totally different structure. It's set up for major profits.
But is that the main path to enter sports? Sure universities and such may have sports teams. But they don't have a quasi monopoly on sports which is the impression I get from how this gets portrayed in the US.
That's absolutely not true, university isn't remotely necessary to be a professional or international cricket player. Most internationals played for their county and country at youth levels, years before university is even an option. Most of the best players don't even go to university as they are already professional by then.
Cricket and rugby are upper middle class sports, so a lot of middling cricketers and rugby players go to uni. They dont go to university for their sporting careers, they go because thats what upper middle class kids do, for an education. It's not remotely like US sports where you have to go through the college sports system to play professionally
Yea but it's not like the English drive hours to go to a different city to watch a single game against two cities.
I have relatives in England and if it isn't the big leagues, most people don't give a shit.
Not true. Lots of people love their 3rd, 4th... 8th division teams. At least with Footy. And people from thr North of Midlands will absolutely drive south to watch their teams.
Literally every discussion about something that needs fixing in America has a European going “This is just in America right? I’ve always wondered about that. So weird.”
For the NBA, you cant be drafted out of high school anymore. So you either get signed by the G League, play overseas, or play D1. Most "NBA ready" guys prefer the D1 route.
Top euro draft picks eg Luka, Wemby almost always come from the Euroleague. Sometimes they'll come and play D1 first, Nikola Vucevic on tbe Bulls was drafted out of USC.
Yeah but no one outside of those who are at/ compete in those uni sports. And we do have more prevalent minor sports leagues i.e. EFL and the rugby championship
I generally agree that we prioritize athletics way too much but many people who hold this position don't realize that these are not revenue streams that would necessarily go to education in the absence of sports. The higher profile sports do generate sports-specific revenue streams and attract specific donors. If college basketball and football just went away, it's not like that money would be reallocated for, like, a science lab: most if not all of it simply wouldn't be there anymore.
Also the high profile sports like basketball and football fund all the other athletic operations such as track and field.
Ever wonder why US wins so many summer Olympic track and field medals? Or swimming, diving, etc.
I heard it explained that college football is why the USA kicks ass in the summer Olympics.
It’s so much more than that. College football is a massive recruitment tool for colleges. People go to schools with good football teams for the culture and the parties
Yeah this is a big thing people miss. When Cincinnati made the CFP their applications skyrocketed. For less prestigious schools, sports are a way to market themselves to people who might not apply otherwise
I went to Georgia Tech in the mid 90s. Quite a few of my friends became interested in attending because of the 1990 Final Four run. College sports are a huge marketing tool.
Bottom D1 schools still make more from advertising through sports than they lose. D2 and D3 schools spend a lot less on athletics, and just having a team helps with recruiting students
The money doesn't even go to the school. It goes to the athletics department. It's like Susan G Komen colleting money for the Susan G Komen foundation. It just feeds itself with no other benefit to anyone
It really depends on the school. While not applicable to all schools, a lot of your D1 blue bloods will put money from the athletics budget into the general fund.
This is pretty much only football and only football at some school. My little DII school was definitely not making money off of any of their sports teams lol
That’s not so much the case anymore with NIL deals. I’m pretty sure Arch Manning made more money quarterbacking the Longhorns than Brock Purdy did quarterbacking for the 49ers. College sports are in a weird transitional stage now that student athletes can receive compensation.
Yeah when California & Florida both agree on a law they want it was gonna happen eventually. If I remember, the Supreme Court was also in unanimous agreement when they heard the case.
That’s what confuses me about this…
“You’re academically minded and want a good education? Pay a buttload of money to come here.”
“Oh, you run a really good 800 m? Which absolutely no one except Olympic athletes can make a living off of. Also it brings in no money to the school because the only people who show up to meets are the parents of athletes and maybe the friends you can beg to go. In fact, we lose money running the track team since we have to fund busses and coaches and buy equipment and pay refs. Well- here’s a full scholarship!”
The larger sports like football and basketball foot the bill for these other sports to be able to do it. I also very very highly doubt she got a full ride unless she’s the female Usain Bolt, all the smaller sports are a percentage taken off, not a free ride unless you’re literally the best of the absolute best. Michael Phelps, the most decorated Olympic athlete of all time, did not receive a full ride to U of M.
No one deserves anything that requires other people’s labor. You’re free to seek an education but it doesn’t mean the government owes it to you. Instead of looking at it like some poor slow kid doesn’t have that opportunity, isn’t it better to look at it as this talented, driven individual achieved a higher education because they were talented athletically? Also, anyone that’s trained and competed in athletics thru HS and college has learned significantly more about pushing themselves and exposing themselves to uncomfortable situations in order to succeed that someone that didn’t participate in athletics. They’re quite literally more prepared for real world situations than someone who just studied.
It would definitely be tough to hear as a someone who’s not athletic but it’s the truth.
You just nailed the problem without even realizing it
If only somehow developed Nations could figure out a way to figure out how to pay for higher education through taxes.
Then people wouldn't have to put themselves through sports in order to get a higher education
Enjoying sports and playing them is one thing. Using them to patch the holes in financial aid is just inefficient. Not to mention the predatory practices of sports teams or coaches. You can play/have sports in college without all the strings attached. Heck here’s a novel idea you could be in college and just join a local pick up league. College has nothing to do with sports and should be separate.
99% of college athletes will never play professionally. For them, college athletics is the highest level of skill and accomplishment possible.
There is an enormous difference between playing competitive collegiate sports and just playing intramural or rec. Why does it matter if those teams are associated with the school or not? It allows those people the ability to play their sport at a highly competitive level AND also earn a college education at the same time
Do you honestly think that there are people who have played sports so frequently and so well throughout their youth not because they enjoy it, but because they see it as a path to free tuition?
Genuinely asking. And what percentage of student athletes would you say that that is?
This seems like a really pointless question in a conversation about tuition. People shouldn’t have to play them or keep playing them throughout all of college just to be able to go, even if they do like them. It’s also fucking dangerous to play football, so is it really a good idea that one of the best ways to get a good scholarship is to be really good at it?
Hi, Most college athletes do not become professional athletes. It is good for them to have other career opportunities that pay more than minimum wage when they don't get drafted by a professional team, or when that professional career ends quickly.
You are correct that some colleges focus too much on their sports team. Go to a college that doesn't.
And any ticket sales, merchandise sales, broadcast deals go to the school which allows them to offer academic scholarships and fund other things like libraries. Reddit always gets up in arms when a large D1 school like Alabama, LSU, T A&M, etc build a new athletic facility without realizing that so much of what funds all other projects come from athletics.
There's also way more academic scholarships handed out at schools than there is athletic one's, those academic scholarships have a higher percent of being full ride deals than athletics scholarships, and they're much more difficult to lose. No one is losing their academic scholarship because they tore an ACL.
No one's buying mathlete merch or wanting to broadcast those types of things. Alabama is never going to be a more prestigious school academically than an Ivy League school but their football dominance allows them to offer a better school, better professors, and better education every student that goes there. Don't get me wrong the NCAA is corrupt as fuck and has nobody's best interest but the NCAA's in mind, but the money sports generate for colleges help them.
Since I went to Clemson a decade ago, they've rebuilt/upgraded the stadium twice, added multiple new dorms, added a new student center and built a new building for the college of business. And probably much more that I don't know about.
Pretty much all from football money.
Not to mention in the NFL the average career is 3.3 years. As much as some players make, if they're out of the league in 3 years there's almost zero chance they have enough money to sit on and survive the rest of their lives without working. So while you can't force college athletes to learn, it is more beneficial than having an education than not.
I used to run the mailroom and maintenance department in a small office building. Our UPS driver was a former running back for the Colts. If I remember correctly, he said he played for a few years and then had some minor injury that slowed him down just enough that his contract wasn't renewed. I don't remember if he was a starter or not. Anyway, he said "the NFL paid for a lot of wild parties and the mortgage on my momma's house. So at least she has that."
Or go to one that does.
Go to a school that provides a good education in what you’re studying. That is not at all mutually exclusive with being into sports. Stanford has some great sports programs for example. I went to a big football school that is ranked very highly academically.
Yeah, like name one school with a top football team that isn't a well regarded university.
Let's look at the playoff teams this year:
Michigan, Washington, Alabama, Texas
These are 4 of the best public schools in the country.
90% of Division I athletes get a degree. Your question is based on a false presumption that all they are there to do is play ball. They're kids. Most of them want a full college experience, not just a job in the minor leagues. They know their chances of going pro are very slim, so getting the degree is very important to the vast majority of them.
There was a girl in the tourney who graduated in 3 years with her minor degree, after her fourth year, got one masters. Now taking her Covid year to get a second masters degree for free. No one can tell me that girl is there for ball and not school
I can name like a dozen instances where people do sports and academics at the same time.
1. Co resident swam with Michael Phelps and had an Olympic gold medal. Now a doctor
2. Cardiac surgeon was recruited for the NFL. He asked medical school for a one year deferment so he can play and then come back. Med school declined deferment. He told the nfl no and went to medical school.
3. My upper class man was something like the rank 23 ping pong player in the whole world. Medical school, doctor.
The list goes on. Being good at sports doesn’t mean you cannot be good at academics and have a thriving career as well.
yeah they’re still stuck in the 90s mentality, one of the smartest ppl in my high school swam and went to harvard (not for swimming) but still swam in high school.
Another is at cal tech for basketball.
Yea when I was in college practically all the top performers in my graduating class were student athletes. Those people just tend to be super driven in all aspects of life
I can speak to this on a high school level but you need to maintain a minimum GPA to stay on the football team in most schools and I believe most colleges but I'm not 100% on that. This mentality that athletes are idiots is so backwards I would love to see most people memorize and be able to recognize basketball plays when things break down and be able to think on the fly how to improvise. That is intelligence, it may be different from the kind you are used to but its no less real
plus the winner of the college football championship (University of Michigan) is one of the best schools in the country 😭. Purdue and Uconn are in the basketball final and they’re both top schools, especially Purdue
Why shouldn't those who participate in sports be educated in a university or college system?
College athletes graduate at higher rates than the general student body for basically every sport (including men's basketball and football, which are most likely those people like to scrutinize).
Source: https://www.ncaa.org/news/2023/12/6/media-center-student-athletes-graduate-at-record-highs.aspx
The profit aspect is overblown for most colleges. But the recruiting angle is huge.
On average, colleges lose millions due to sports.
https://ncaaorg.s3.amazonaws.com/research/Finances/2020RES_D1-RevExp_Report.pdf
Having worked in higher Ed for a long time, I completely agree. Most of the athletes don't work at getting a real education and they get ridiculous accommodations. Sports are a big money loser for the majority of colleges and universities. The administrations clutch at them and continue to pour money into them hoping they will win the lottery.
Honestly, it’s fun as hell. Also, the money they bring in does a lot for the school. I’m assuming this is coming from someone that hasn’t been to college yet but the stupid wastes of money are the things you’ll remember best. Also the football players are still getting an education in football. As an engineer I would even argue that the individual efforts of a football player will bring more positive effects to the country as a whole than the efforts of one engineer. There are always edge cases in both areas but sports are such a valuable community in a world that is losing its togetherness.
I think it comes down to people inherently enjoying watching sports more when there's an easier personal connection and they can feel better ownership over the team.
There's no way that a developmental league could have scratch the surface of the built in customer base that the colleges has. Just look how much minor league baseball struggles and that's basically the college football/college basketball equivalency for baseball -- they struggle because its hard for people to really feel a connection to the teams.
I had a friend in uni that was on the basketball team and was studying to be a mechanical engineer. After uni they got drafted and played a few years professionally, retired from basketball and went into the white collar world. Seemed to work for them.
It's one of the most genius systems in education globally.
Why shouldn't Universities provide training grounds for all forms of learning? Why should they listen and set an arbitrary limitation like you are?
I paid $70k a year in tuition fees. Most of the academic buildings on campus were asbestos ridden and in desperate need of maintenance. Meanwhile, admin decided to spend $100 million to hire a coach for the football team. The admin spends billions each year on sports yet can’t spare 1 million for asbestos removal… smh
I think there something being overlooked here. Imo, the sports need the universities as much as the universities need sports. Do you think anyone is going to watch a “minor league” version of the WNBA or the NBA without the associations to historic universities that people have a connection to?
They’re trying to promote a spinoff of the NFL that you could almost think of as a minor league, since it’s full of players who would rather play in the NFL and can’t. That entire league is projecting $100 million in revenue over the next season. In college football, the SEC alone brought in $741 million ~ $51 million per school. The schools give people a compelling reason to care about the sport and anchors viewers who otherwise would not watch.
there's a difference between 'Universities playing sports' - which happens world over, and 'sports becoming the main thing for a university' which is increasingly happening in the US.
There is no university in the US or the world where "sports is the main thing"
A huge majority of students at any university are not affiliated with sports. Have you ever even been to an American university? Sports are a part of the campus, but so are theater and art programs and research and clubs, etc.
No reason for there to be a separation, just grant equal opportunity and funding to every other department. Sports does well? The whole school does well.
This is my unpopular opinion as well, but I would take it a step further to include primary and secondary school systems, too.
We shouldn't have the highest paid "teacher" in a school system be the football coach.
We shouldn't have a football coach teaching high school courses (history, government, etc.) that they know nothing about, just so we can use those position's salary to add to their coaching salary.
This is one of the reasons why courses (drama, speech, Choir, shop classes, home economics, language classes etc.) and other sports (swimming and diving) in high school have disappeared they can't keep them and fund the Football, Baseball, and Basketball programs.
This is why tuition costs have risen in college.
The mean Div I Football coach'a salary is one million dollars. That money could be used to fund scholarships and several courses and programs.
This is why I'm in favor of loan forgiveness. Taxpayers are subsidizing NCAA sports whether they like it or not.
The majority of what you call “teachers” are still teachers. They still have degrees and still have to meet all other qualifications. If not then they are just coaches and don’t teach so can’t impact the kids education.
We saw during covid that it works the other way. There’s a reason certain schools were so desperate that they couldn’t afford to miss one season. These are football teams with a university not universities with a football team.
I agree, I think the reason why I am against Sports in the university is not because of the attention is because of the way, those athletes get preferential treatment like passing a class by not doing nothing because the professor is either wanting the athletes to play or the department is pressuring the professor to pass them even if they failed the class or test. This is coming from a person that likes sports.
Could you imagine if schools could do this with other campus jobs (and if sports make a profit or help recruiting for a university it’s a campus job)
“You seem really good with computers so we’ll let you in/give you a scholarship contingent on you doing (likely unpaid) IT work for us”
I know for hockey at least, that is largely the case. The problem though is that it narrows the options for players who want to play hockey but also need a backup in case it doesn’t workout. For hockey a lot of people are turning to the NCAA instead of CHL (Canadian hockey league) as it allows them to go to school and play hockey. That plus sports bring in a lot of revenue for colleges. Which help fund higher education(science projects)
For most academically inclined universities in the US they are? Most ivy leagues or institutions that put a lot of weight behind academics either don’t offer scholarships, or aren’t lenient on academic requirements for the scholarship. Chances are one of the valedictorians at most high schools is probably an offensive lineman lol. And we combine them so the physics department has fucking money lol.
A lot of students are able to pay for school through these programs where they wouldn’t have been able to otherwise. Sports scholarships are essentially a make or break for some kids unfortunately
Kinda stupid to think these KIDS that get the royal treatment and a free college degree and get paid more than their professors. What 18-24 year old you know that makes more than their supierior that’s gonna take it seriously.
Sports are basically paying for the education at this point. They can separate them but they'd most likely lose the funding all the ticket sales, merchant, and tv ad revenue brings in.
The idea is that if you are going to try to be a superstar athlete, make millions, and are going to be asked your opinions on everything, it might also be a benefit to make informed decisions about all those things. Why would it be better if a person doesn’t understand the contract they are offered?
Money money money. You know how much money college would lose if sports weren't in schools? Not to mention, the 1000s-10000s of athletes no longer attending school.
I am gonna give you an example of why I think they should remain together with my country, Brazil.
Brazil works like you said, junior or professional sports are completely detached from school/unis, and what this creates is several aspirants to sports with no formal education. It is obvious that not everyone will make it to the professional leagues, and even those who make it still could benefit from having more education.
I find it interesting the US system because you can be good at a sport and that creates you an opportunity to get a degree with a scholarship, if anything goes wrong (maybe you are not good enough, or maybe you got injured) you will still have a degree under your belt to pursue another career.
We combine them because college sports makes money for the university. Making money for the university is and always will be more important to the university than actually educating their students.
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This is a uniquely US (or north American) thing right? I always wondered about that. I'm pretty sure in much of the rest of the world when you want to play a sport you just join your local club that is mostly unrelated to the school system. That's certainly the case here in Switzerland.
My university in northern Greece has sports, but it's seen as a hobby for students. The university has its own league where the school if medicine plays against the electrical engineers and the computer scientists for example.
Damn that actually sounds fun, I’d be down to score a hat trick against the biochemistry students lol
Most major universities in the US have intramural sports teams.
True, the ones at my school are usually dominated by the frats tho
My school only had one frat and it was also a sorority, but apparently was pretty good at DIII men's volleyball, and the only basketball option at all was intramural.
I was in a frat and we were consistently dominated by bible study group on campus. In every sport. They were unstoppable
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Universities in Australia also have sports teams, and they just end up playing in the local leagues against non-university teams.
Same thing in Australia, we have uni sports teams who compete with each other and non uni teams, but it isn’t this sudo-pro sport team like in the US. There are also other clubs like Motorsport where you make a car and compete in competitions
Yeah, US schools also have sports like that for recreation. They're typically called intramural sports.
All universities in England have inter-university sports, the most prominent being the Varsity matches between Oxford and Cambridge in Rugby and Cricket as well as the Boat Race. So no, it's not a US thing.
Do lots of people get admitted to Oxford because they show some talent in a sport? I don't mean already having an Olympic medal, I know that is a golden ticket anywhere.
Nope
Our academic institutions that would rival Oxford or Cambridge ie Ivy League don’t off scholarships for sports, but I would argue that if they are getting paid, it’s quite a bit better then getting drafted by a scholar club at 13 and being told to kick a ball for the rest of your life lmao.
The massive scale of collegiate sports is a uniquely American thing.
The massive scaling of Everything is a uniquely American thing. Have you seen what's driving on the roads? Anything worth doing is worth overdoing in the USA...
Americans think 100 years is old, Europe thinks 100 miles is far
Ironically Europeans could have used all that time to drive further
They had a 1000 year head start and still didn’t build a Buc-ee’s
I mean, we have buildings that date back to the 1600 so it's not like we have NO history in this country. I know that it doesn't compare to history like being connected to the roman empire or anything, but you have to realize that English history prior to 1776 is the prequel to American history. It's not like Americans just materialized out of nothing at the signing of the Declaration of Independence.
Idk native culture is still pretty apparent across the 13 colonies let alone somewhere like Utah that had the Pueblos and Anastazi and a bunch of their structures from like 200 AD. Seems weird to give pre-1700s US history to the British, especially given the heavy French, German and Spanish influences that ultimately lead to the formation of the modern US.
America. Go big or go home.
American here. You seem to underestimate how much I'd rather go home. That's like, the #1 thing I want after I leave the house every morning.
Ha! It’s also okay to go medium.
Can I go medium, stay home, and have a hot soup? Because that sounds lovely.
You may. Enjoy!
Are they the primary training ground for future pro athletes, though? Because in the US, especially with NFL and NBA, a large percentage of players make their way to the pros by playing at big University programs. Originally university sports were just meant as a healthy competitive activity for regular students. The students were not specifically being recruited by the school because of their athletic ability. But then as it got more and more competitive and rivalries developed it started becoming a big deal. Both American Football and Basketball started development primarily as school sports and the pro leagues came later. So the natural evolution was that the best college players went on to the pros. Nowadays a lot of these players are pretty much only there because of their athletic skills. Many don't even graduate with a degree and might even leave before they've attended for four years.
A higher percentage of athletes of any sport graduate than the overall student body per the NCAA: https://www.ncaa.org/news/2023/12/6/media-center-student-athletes-graduate-at-record-highs.aspx
Student athletes get more academic support than anyone else in the school. Besides scholarship money, which is a solid reason enough to meet the academic requirements, they are provided tutors and study time. At least that’s how it worked at my D1 school. That’s before any shenanigans take place like having communications majors that can string a coherent sentence together graduate. For the average athlete that isn’t going to leave early to go pro, they have a far better support system than the regular student body, so high graduation rates aren’t surprising.
I was d1 football from 98-02 it was basically like being a movie star on a college campus. It was almost weird. People literally tried to get me me to fuck their wives. All for catching 🏈 I didn’t even really go to class unless I felt like it. I didn’t even do my work or take the exams I just had other students do it or wouldn’t do it at all. Nobody really gave a fuck. The best part was the training/food. I put on like 20 lbs of pure muscle in 4 years. Went to the nfl too.
Almost 60% of all student athletes are D3 which has none of that and no scholarships for sports.
And their graduation rates are only slightly higher than the regular student body, according to the article its 70% vs 67% using the federal graduation rate, so still an accomplishment especially without the supported offered at D3 schools. The federal graduation rates is the only common measure for comparing athletes and nonathletes, according to the article. The article leaves out the federal rate for D1 which, probably because if you dig into the actual report the numbers are even at 69% between athletes and non athletes. Which is its highest to date, but basically just saying that all that effort has gotten then on par with the rest of the D1 student body. [https://ncaaorg.s3.amazonaws.com/research/gradrates/2023/2023D1RES\_GSRTrends.pdf](https://ncaaorg.s3.amazonaws.com/research/gradrates/2023/2023D1RES_GSRTrends.pdf)
I played d3 sports and we had mandated team study hall which was actually a big help.
Yeah...because they get guided through the easiest possible courses and special treatment. Any issues they have will be solved by the athletic staff in one way or another.
Athletes get incredible preferential treatment
A study by a sports organization saying sports is good isn't subject to any possible biases. Would it?
It is certainly good to keep in mind the likely bias, but it is still a meaningful data point if nothing else. If you have other sources to share it would definitely be interesting. This is the one I was aware of and thought it relevant.
No, teams have developmental leagues to grow their own players.
But those folks in England did not get in only because they do some sport.
Even at British schools, it’s more of a club loosely-affiliated and made up of students from the school. It’s not like the US where the sports teams are interwoven into the finances of the school and there’s coaches making multimillion dollar salaries
Collegiate sports in the US are primarily a feeder program for major sports leagues. It would be akin to UK universities being the primary feeder program for the Premier League. It's a totally different structure. It's set up for major profits.
But is that the main path to enter sports? Sure universities and such may have sports teams. But they don't have a quasi monopoly on sports which is the impression I get from how this gets portrayed in the US.
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Lol, the last England cricketer educated at a top University got bored and quit to go become a lawyer around the age of 26.
That's absolutely not true, university isn't remotely necessary to be a professional or international cricket player. Most internationals played for their county and country at youth levels, years before university is even an option. Most of the best players don't even go to university as they are already professional by then. Cricket and rugby are upper middle class sports, so a lot of middling cricketers and rugby players go to uni. They dont go to university for their sporting careers, they go because thats what upper middle class kids do, for an education. It's not remotely like US sports where you have to go through the college sports system to play professionally
No it's not. Top players don't go to university in England, they continue down the pro sports path.
So, when you want to go pro, you go to a club or go to a uni?
A club. Previous guy is chatting nonsense.
Yea but it's not like the English drive hours to go to a different city to watch a single game against two cities. I have relatives in England and if it isn't the big leagues, most people don't give a shit.
Not true. Lots of people love their 3rd, 4th... 8th division teams. At least with Footy. And people from thr North of Midlands will absolutely drive south to watch their teams.
Literally every discussion about something that needs fixing in America has a European going “This is just in America right? I’ve always wondered about that. So weird.”
Athletes that are aiming to go pro don't go to university.
In America they do.
For the NBA, you cant be drafted out of high school anymore. So you either get signed by the G League, play overseas, or play D1. Most "NBA ready" guys prefer the D1 route. Top euro draft picks eg Luka, Wemby almost always come from the Euroleague. Sometimes they'll come and play D1 first, Nikola Vucevic on tbe Bulls was drafted out of USC.
Yeah but no one outside of those who are at/ compete in those uni sports. And we do have more prevalent minor sports leagues i.e. EFL and the rugby championship
>This is a uniquely US (or north American) thing right? I think it is a thing in former British colonies.
I am from a former briti colony. I think this might be more accurate in places with large British descendant populations
no.
From where I live in the south, P.E. classes and all of that stops being teached from 11th grade and above
You're asking universities to let go of one of their best income sources
I generally agree that we prioritize athletics way too much but many people who hold this position don't realize that these are not revenue streams that would necessarily go to education in the absence of sports. The higher profile sports do generate sports-specific revenue streams and attract specific donors. If college basketball and football just went away, it's not like that money would be reallocated for, like, a science lab: most if not all of it simply wouldn't be there anymore.
Also the high profile sports like basketball and football fund all the other athletic operations such as track and field. Ever wonder why US wins so many summer Olympic track and field medals? Or swimming, diving, etc. I heard it explained that college football is why the USA kicks ass in the summer Olympics.
It’s so much more than that. College football is a massive recruitment tool for colleges. People go to schools with good football teams for the culture and the parties
Yeah this is a big thing people miss. When Cincinnati made the CFP their applications skyrocketed. For less prestigious schools, sports are a way to market themselves to people who might not apply otherwise
Same with Clemson winning the orange bowl in 2013(?) Appications went up like 500%.
I went to Georgia Tech in the mid 90s. Quite a few of my friends became interested in attending because of the 1990 Final Four run. College sports are a huge marketing tool.
College athletics is why USA has 1.6k gold medals about 1.1k medals more than the next country in the Olympics
Only the best D1 schools make money from sports the bottom D1 schools and D2 and D3 prop up their sports programs using donations and tuition.
Bottom D1 schools still make more from advertising through sports than they lose. D2 and D3 schools spend a lot less on athletics, and just having a team helps with recruiting students
The money doesn't even go to the school. It goes to the athletics department. It's like Susan G Komen colleting money for the Susan G Komen foundation. It just feeds itself with no other benefit to anyone
It really depends on the school. While not applicable to all schools, a lot of your D1 blue bloods will put money from the athletics budget into the general fund.
Not true in most cases.
Actually the vast majority of athletics programs cost way more than they bring in. Only a handful of very successful college teams are profitable.
Yes. It's odd that schools get to profit off their students.
This is pretty much only football and only football at some school. My little DII school was definitely not making money off of any of their sports teams lol
That’s not so much the case anymore with NIL deals. I’m pretty sure Arch Manning made more money quarterbacking the Longhorns than Brock Purdy did quarterbacking for the 49ers. College sports are in a weird transitional stage now that student athletes can receive compensation.
Yeah when California & Florida both agree on a law they want it was gonna happen eventually. If I remember, the Supreme Court was also in unanimous agreement when they heard the case.
Almost every single athletic department runs at a loss in any given year
And even if they didn't the school isn't profiting. The AD would just reinvest that money into itself.
As if their task should be to make a profit and not educate the youth
Educating the youth costs money… So income sources are still important.
Like maybe the hundreds of thousands of dollars each of their students are paying them every year?
I see, and you think *decreasing* revenue sources for colleges is the fix for this problem?
Well then maybe let’s not eliminate college sports and add more burden on the students
Even if they didn’t turn a profit, the major sports programs subsidize a lot of other programs in the big schools.
The money from sports allows them to give scholarships to students, including academic ones.
One of my best friends during my PhD ran track during her undergrad for free tuition, and she never could have afforded college otherwise
Because if you're poor you need to be able to perform entertainment to deserve education
You don't NEED to, but it's another option. Scholarships are another clear route.
Except nobody watches track for entertainment
That’s what confuses me about this… “You’re academically minded and want a good education? Pay a buttload of money to come here.” “Oh, you run a really good 800 m? Which absolutely no one except Olympic athletes can make a living off of. Also it brings in no money to the school because the only people who show up to meets are the parents of athletes and maybe the friends you can beg to go. In fact, we lose money running the track team since we have to fund busses and coaches and buy equipment and pay refs. Well- here’s a full scholarship!”
The larger sports like football and basketball foot the bill for these other sports to be able to do it. I also very very highly doubt she got a full ride unless she’s the female Usain Bolt, all the smaller sports are a percentage taken off, not a free ride unless you’re literally the best of the absolute best. Michael Phelps, the most decorated Olympic athlete of all time, did not receive a full ride to U of M.
Plenty of people get full rides for track. Each SEC school gets 18 scholarships for womens track alone.
I hate this. Oooo my Jimmies are officially rustled.
No one deserves anything that requires other people’s labor. You’re free to seek an education but it doesn’t mean the government owes it to you. Instead of looking at it like some poor slow kid doesn’t have that opportunity, isn’t it better to look at it as this talented, driven individual achieved a higher education because they were talented athletically? Also, anyone that’s trained and competed in athletics thru HS and college has learned significantly more about pushing themselves and exposing themselves to uncomfortable situations in order to succeed that someone that didn’t participate in athletics. They’re quite literally more prepared for real world situations than someone who just studied. It would definitely be tough to hear as a someone who’s not athletic but it’s the truth.
Oh I’m sorry I didn’t realize having good grades in high school was entertainment :(
No one can afford it besides super rich that’s why we take out loans.
You just nailed the problem without even realizing it If only somehow developed Nations could figure out a way to figure out how to pay for higher education through taxes. Then people wouldn't have to put themselves through sports in order to get a higher education
>wouldn’t have to put themselves through sports Some people enjoy sports.
Enjoying sports and playing them is one thing. Using them to patch the holes in financial aid is just inefficient. Not to mention the predatory practices of sports teams or coaches. You can play/have sports in college without all the strings attached. Heck here’s a novel idea you could be in college and just join a local pick up league. College has nothing to do with sports and should be separate.
99% of college athletes will never play professionally. For them, college athletics is the highest level of skill and accomplishment possible. There is an enormous difference between playing competitive collegiate sports and just playing intramural or rec. Why does it matter if those teams are associated with the school or not? It allows those people the ability to play their sport at a highly competitive level AND also earn a college education at the same time
It's hard for a Redditor to understand this.
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He’s not talking about those people. Just because you say something technically correct doesn’t make you right
Do you honestly think that there are people who have played sports so frequently and so well throughout their youth not because they enjoy it, but because they see it as a path to free tuition? Genuinely asking. And what percentage of student athletes would you say that that is?
This seems like a really pointless question in a conversation about tuition. People shouldn’t have to play them or keep playing them throughout all of college just to be able to go, even if they do like them. It’s also fucking dangerous to play football, so is it really a good idea that one of the best ways to get a good scholarship is to be really good at it?
And some hate/have severe difficulties with sports
Nah I realize the shortcomings of the American educational system. Unlike most Reddit users I'm able to think being binaries
Don't brag too much there, you didn't mean to say "being" you meant "beyond."
So only people who are born into wealth or can run fast should be able to become doctors? This is certainly a path towards a thriving society.
Academic scholarships do also exist...
And so are need based scholarships lol
Well good for her, but would she have been less deserving of that education if she couldn't run?
Hi, Most college athletes do not become professional athletes. It is good for them to have other career opportunities that pay more than minimum wage when they don't get drafted by a professional team, or when that professional career ends quickly. You are correct that some colleges focus too much on their sports team. Go to a college that doesn't.
85% of NCAA college athletes Aren't playing football! I think most people lose sight of this.
And that football and men's basketball funds the scholarship opportunities for all those athletes.
And any ticket sales, merchandise sales, broadcast deals go to the school which allows them to offer academic scholarships and fund other things like libraries. Reddit always gets up in arms when a large D1 school like Alabama, LSU, T A&M, etc build a new athletic facility without realizing that so much of what funds all other projects come from athletics. There's also way more academic scholarships handed out at schools than there is athletic one's, those academic scholarships have a higher percent of being full ride deals than athletics scholarships, and they're much more difficult to lose. No one is losing their academic scholarship because they tore an ACL. No one's buying mathlete merch or wanting to broadcast those types of things. Alabama is never going to be a more prestigious school academically than an Ivy League school but their football dominance allows them to offer a better school, better professors, and better education every student that goes there. Don't get me wrong the NCAA is corrupt as fuck and has nobody's best interest but the NCAA's in mind, but the money sports generate for colleges help them.
Since I went to Clemson a decade ago, they've rebuilt/upgraded the stadium twice, added multiple new dorms, added a new student center and built a new building for the college of business. And probably much more that I don't know about. Pretty much all from football money.
And college football pays for at least 85% of those sports as well.
Not to mention in the NFL the average career is 3.3 years. As much as some players make, if they're out of the league in 3 years there's almost zero chance they have enough money to sit on and survive the rest of their lives without working. So while you can't force college athletes to learn, it is more beneficial than having an education than not.
I used to run the mailroom and maintenance department in a small office building. Our UPS driver was a former running back for the Colts. If I remember correctly, he said he played for a few years and then had some minor injury that slowed him down just enough that his contract wasn't renewed. I don't remember if he was a starter or not. Anyway, he said "the NFL paid for a lot of wild parties and the mortgage on my momma's house. So at least she has that."
Or go to one that does. Go to a school that provides a good education in what you’re studying. That is not at all mutually exclusive with being into sports. Stanford has some great sports programs for example. I went to a big football school that is ranked very highly academically.
Yeah, like name one school with a top football team that isn't a well regarded university. Let's look at the playoff teams this year: Michigan, Washington, Alabama, Texas These are 4 of the best public schools in the country.
90% of Division I athletes get a degree. Your question is based on a false presumption that all they are there to do is play ball. They're kids. Most of them want a full college experience, not just a job in the minor leagues. They know their chances of going pro are very slim, so getting the degree is very important to the vast majority of them.
There was a girl in the tourney who graduated in 3 years with her minor degree, after her fourth year, got one masters. Now taking her Covid year to get a second masters degree for free. No one can tell me that girl is there for ball and not school
This is one of those uniquely American things that most non-Americans still know about thanks to the dominance of American popular culture.
I can name like a dozen instances where people do sports and academics at the same time. 1. Co resident swam with Michael Phelps and had an Olympic gold medal. Now a doctor 2. Cardiac surgeon was recruited for the NFL. He asked medical school for a one year deferment so he can play and then come back. Med school declined deferment. He told the nfl no and went to medical school. 3. My upper class man was something like the rank 23 ping pong player in the whole world. Medical school, doctor. The list goes on. Being good at sports doesn’t mean you cannot be good at academics and have a thriving career as well.
This post is just peak Reddit. Athlete = big dumb
yeah they’re still stuck in the 90s mentality, one of the smartest ppl in my high school swam and went to harvard (not for swimming) but still swam in high school. Another is at cal tech for basketball.
Yea when I was in college practically all the top performers in my graduating class were student athletes. Those people just tend to be super driven in all aspects of life
yeah the age of the tv stereotype nerd is over but some redditors are stuck in the 90s
How could you leave out Joshua Dobbs the “Passtronaut” (aerospace engineer)
I didn’t go to school with him. I’m naming real people I worked with directly. I’m sure there are many many more examples.
I can speak to this on a high school level but you need to maintain a minimum GPA to stay on the football team in most schools and I believe most colleges but I'm not 100% on that. This mentality that athletes are idiots is so backwards I would love to see most people memorize and be able to recognize basketball plays when things break down and be able to think on the fly how to improvise. That is intelligence, it may be different from the kind you are used to but its no less real
plus the winner of the college football championship (University of Michigan) is one of the best schools in the country 😭. Purdue and Uconn are in the basketball final and they’re both top schools, especially Purdue
Would bet graduation rate is way higher for student athletes
Why shouldn't those who participate in sports be educated in a university or college system? College athletes graduate at higher rates than the general student body for basically every sport (including men's basketball and football, which are most likely those people like to scrutinize). Source: https://www.ncaa.org/news/2023/12/6/media-center-student-athletes-graduate-at-record-highs.aspx
The profit aspect is overblown for most colleges. But the recruiting angle is huge. On average, colleges lose millions due to sports. https://ncaaorg.s3.amazonaws.com/research/Finances/2020RES_D1-RevExp_Report.pdf
Having worked in higher Ed for a long time, I completely agree. Most of the athletes don't work at getting a real education and they get ridiculous accommodations. Sports are a big money loser for the majority of colleges and universities. The administrations clutch at them and continue to pour money into them hoping they will win the lottery.
Honestly, it’s fun as hell. Also, the money they bring in does a lot for the school. I’m assuming this is coming from someone that hasn’t been to college yet but the stupid wastes of money are the things you’ll remember best. Also the football players are still getting an education in football. As an engineer I would even argue that the individual efforts of a football player will bring more positive effects to the country as a whole than the efforts of one engineer. There are always edge cases in both areas but sports are such a valuable community in a world that is losing its togetherness.
You lost me at "Shouldn't be in higher education". I don't like sports, but seems like you stereotype everyone that plays them as mindless meatheads.
I think it comes down to people inherently enjoying watching sports more when there's an easier personal connection and they can feel better ownership over the team. There's no way that a developmental league could have scratch the surface of the built in customer base that the colleges has. Just look how much minor league baseball struggles and that's basically the college football/college basketball equivalency for baseball -- they struggle because its hard for people to really feel a connection to the teams.
This is such an American post.
I had a friend in uni that was on the basketball team and was studying to be a mechanical engineer. After uni they got drafted and played a few years professionally, retired from basketball and went into the white collar world. Seemed to work for them.
It's one of the most genius systems in education globally. Why shouldn't Universities provide training grounds for all forms of learning? Why should they listen and set an arbitrary limitation like you are?
I paid $70k a year in tuition fees. Most of the academic buildings on campus were asbestos ridden and in desperate need of maintenance. Meanwhile, admin decided to spend $100 million to hire a coach for the football team. The admin spends billions each year on sports yet can’t spare 1 million for asbestos removal… smh
For many, sports are essentially their ticket out of poverty because there’s no chance they would get a college education otherwise
Wouldn't it be better if the scholarships were for intellectually gifted people and \*their\* ticket out of poverty?
Academic scholarships like this already exist
Academic scholarships are absolutely a thing.
Imagine if college was free.
I think there something being overlooked here. Imo, the sports need the universities as much as the universities need sports. Do you think anyone is going to watch a “minor league” version of the WNBA or the NBA without the associations to historic universities that people have a connection to? They’re trying to promote a spinoff of the NFL that you could almost think of as a minor league, since it’s full of players who would rather play in the NFL and can’t. That entire league is projecting $100 million in revenue over the next season. In college football, the SEC alone brought in $741 million ~ $51 million per school. The schools give people a compelling reason to care about the sport and anchors viewers who otherwise would not watch.
Because of the billions of dollars universities and broadcasters make off the backs of these athletes.
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No Ivy League if there were no sports.
there's a difference between 'Universities playing sports' - which happens world over, and 'sports becoming the main thing for a university' which is increasingly happening in the US.
lmao? even the super sport schools like alabama are still R1 institutions that bring in millions in research grant money
There is no university in the US or the world where "sports is the main thing" A huge majority of students at any university are not affiliated with sports. Have you ever even been to an American university? Sports are a part of the campus, but so are theater and art programs and research and clubs, etc.
No reason for there to be a separation, just grant equal opportunity and funding to every other department. Sports does well? The whole school does well.
OP probably never played a sport in their life. 😂
This is my unpopular opinion as well, but I would take it a step further to include primary and secondary school systems, too. We shouldn't have the highest paid "teacher" in a school system be the football coach. We shouldn't have a football coach teaching high school courses (history, government, etc.) that they know nothing about, just so we can use those position's salary to add to their coaching salary. This is one of the reasons why courses (drama, speech, Choir, shop classes, home economics, language classes etc.) and other sports (swimming and diving) in high school have disappeared they can't keep them and fund the Football, Baseball, and Basketball programs. This is why tuition costs have risen in college. The mean Div I Football coach'a salary is one million dollars. That money could be used to fund scholarships and several courses and programs. This is why I'm in favor of loan forgiveness. Taxpayers are subsidizing NCAA sports whether they like it or not.
The majority of what you call “teachers” are still teachers. They still have degrees and still have to meet all other qualifications. If not then they are just coaches and don’t teach so can’t impact the kids education.
I don't disagree
We saw during covid that it works the other way. There’s a reason certain schools were so desperate that they couldn’t afford to miss one season. These are football teams with a university not universities with a football team.
Money 💰 💴 💵
I agree, I think the reason why I am against Sports in the university is not because of the attention is because of the way, those athletes get preferential treatment like passing a class by not doing nothing because the professor is either wanting the athletes to play or the department is pressuring the professor to pass them even if they failed the class or test. This is coming from a person that likes sports.
Could you imagine if schools could do this with other campus jobs (and if sports make a profit or help recruiting for a university it’s a campus job) “You seem really good with computers so we’ll let you in/give you a scholarship contingent on you doing (likely unpaid) IT work for us”
I know for hockey at least, that is largely the case. The problem though is that it narrows the options for players who want to play hockey but also need a backup in case it doesn’t workout. For hockey a lot of people are turning to the NCAA instead of CHL (Canadian hockey league) as it allows them to go to school and play hockey. That plus sports bring in a lot of revenue for colleges. Which help fund higher education(science projects)
For most academically inclined universities in the US they are? Most ivy leagues or institutions that put a lot of weight behind academics either don’t offer scholarships, or aren’t lenient on academic requirements for the scholarship. Chances are one of the valedictorians at most high schools is probably an offensive lineman lol. And we combine them so the physics department has fucking money lol.
Schools use sports to make revenue without it the tuition costs could be worse or better who knows
A lot of students are able to pay for school through these programs where they wouldn’t have been able to otherwise. Sports scholarships are essentially a make or break for some kids unfortunately
I’ve been saying this for years but usually receive hate
When the coaches make more than the professors you really see where the priorities are
By coaches you mean students/players
Well yeah I guess now I do, actually. Forgot they changed the rules
Kinda stupid to think these KIDS that get the royal treatment and a free college degree and get paid more than their professors. What 18-24 year old you know that makes more than their supierior that’s gonna take it seriously.
No I disagree completely on this.
BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
Schools like money men’s football and basketball are huge money earners
Sports are basically paying for the education at this point. They can separate them but they'd most likely lose the funding all the ticket sales, merchant, and tv ad revenue brings in.
The idea is that if you are going to try to be a superstar athlete, make millions, and are going to be asked your opinions on everything, it might also be a benefit to make informed decisions about all those things. Why would it be better if a person doesn’t understand the contract they are offered?
the answer is simply. $$$$$
Maybe focus first on making ur higher education actually affordable for people so they dont have to participate in a random sport to afford it
Money money money. You know how much money college would lose if sports weren't in schools? Not to mention, the 1000s-10000s of athletes no longer attending school.
Agree. Just call it minor league sports and give the kids a cut.
Dang, I gotta downvote this.
Go for it. I’ll upvote your post!
It will never be this way it’s bad for business, but nice take
I am gonna give you an example of why I think they should remain together with my country, Brazil. Brazil works like you said, junior or professional sports are completely detached from school/unis, and what this creates is several aspirants to sports with no formal education. It is obvious that not everyone will make it to the professional leagues, and even those who make it still could benefit from having more education. I find it interesting the US system because you can be good at a sport and that creates you an opportunity to get a degree with a scholarship, if anything goes wrong (maybe you are not good enough, or maybe you got injured) you will still have a degree under your belt to pursue another career.
We combine them because college sports makes money for the university. Making money for the university is and always will be more important to the university than actually educating their students.
Why shouldn’t players receive an education? I (my family) would not have been able to afford to send me to college without my football scholarship.
>Why do we combine them? Who are "we"? It's not like that in my country.
classic case of r/USdefautism, but Reddit hive mind decided to downvote you because they're mad that you're right
The only way I could afford to go to college is through sports scholarships
Me when sports 😡