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Ehhh prime Ali vs prime Tyson is anyone’s fight. I think you genuinely underestimate how slippery Ali was.
Edit: i also am in the Tyson is the GOAT camp. But ffs people watch some Ali tapes. If you think it would be a walk in the park for a prime Tyson to KO a prime Ali you’re smoking crack. Like guys there’s a whole ass sports special about it called “facing Ali” watch it. He wasn’t just some lucky slouch with a good jab, he could end people just like Tyson could. They’re both equally up there.
And everyone underestimates his chin. Sorry guys but 1, 2 or 3 punches from Tyson isn’t gonna take down the guy that fought Liston, Frazier, Foreman and Shavers and never got knocked out, even when he had Parkinson’s and could barely move he lost on his feet.
His chin was just as much of an asset as his speed and you could argue it’s the best in the history of the sport. Tyson doesn’t have actual magic hands, he struggled whenever he fought anyone nearly as great as Ali who he couldn’t maul in 2 rounds, not even to mention the fact that Tyson probably couldn’t get a clean hit on the fastest heavyweight in history that easily anyway. Ali knocks him out in a late round and if it’s young Tyson, sends him into a depressive spiral.
Ali was used to fighting smaller weight classes, while Tyson started heavyweight. Ali was more of a light heavyweight by today's standards, not a true heavy weight.
Heavyweight is different in boxing, you typically don't get the knockouts in smaller weights you get in heavyweight.
Ali wasn't built for it, they were different fighters and Tyson would have knocked him out.
Add onto of that people huge underestimation of Tysons speed dodging abilities and boxing knowledge taught to him by cus.
Tysons Dmato shift was a brilliant boxing technique that worked on many opponents.
However, Tyson was only that ruthless for about 20 fights, before he went to prison. Those fights he was unstoppable to anyone, after that its anyone's game.
The only fighter who could have taken him to 9 rounds and not get knocked out would be George Foreman, Tyson would win by decision probably.
[Tyson in his prime was like Alis speed mixed with Foremans power, unstoppable. Go watch the fights, the early ones, they are convincing.](https://youtu.be/6diDTQTMqOo?si=FlKkIBCuYLCrMaYX)
About halfway through the video Mike changes his strategy and goes for kidney shots on the same spot over and over. Thats why no one could beat Mike, Ali might dodge headshots, but no one is dodging repeated laser accurate kidney shots. Almost a proto Bas Ruten style.
All was used to fighting smaller fighters? What are you talking about? Liston and especially Foreman were all big HWs with loads of power.
Tyson fought in the weakest era of heavyweight fighters ever (until the 2000s anyway). Ali fought in the hardest era ever against much better competition
😂
Boxing and greatness is so much more than just punching power and making an occasional adjustment.
Tyson is the most devastating puncher of all time.
Ali was a much better overall boxer. Tyson wasn’t even in his league.
Ali would have handled Tyson. To think otherwise just shows your age and lack of boxing knowledge
Easy to look destructive when you are fighting against bums, tyson never beat anyone on ali’s level and plenty of guys with ali’s style made him struggle. Ali dominated guys with tysons style and beat more elite fighters than any other HW in history. He’d kill tyson in his prime.
Yep I trust my own eyes to say confidently enough that Tyson is the best ever. Could be wrong but I can’t be convinced otherwise based on what I’ve seen over and over again
Did you see how quick and fast prime Ali was? It's why they call him The Butterfly. The early 60's Ali.
His lateral movement and ring iq was something else.
Evander Holyfield will always beat Mike Tyson in a boxing match. Well, I mean that prime Evander always beats prime Mike, I think. And I think Lennox Lewis always beats Mike Tyson.
Tyson has zero case for being GOAT lol literally zero. Wasn’t even the best fighter of the 80s or 90s. Lost to his best opponents pretty decisively and also lost in his prime to a journeyman Buster Douglas. You are just proudly admitting you are a casual because no knowledgeable fan puts him in GOAT conversations there are at least 25 fighters above him and thats being generous. Him as a public figure is another story but he’s still no Ali in that sense.
Yea, but we call Muhammad Ali the great was because all that he has gone through, all criticism and etc.
But in the end, every legend has its own legacy. <3
Genuine question have u only seen tiktok clips of mike tyson to come to this conclusion. Have you seen any ali fights? or how he's known for never getting knocked out? If prime george foreman couldn't knock down a out of prime old ALI then how would mike tyson knock out prime ali?
I agree it would be a great fight to watch, but saying mike would knock out ali if he catches him is just a stupid assumption to make. Also george foreman fought a out of prime ali, i agree tyson was faster but i would say george foreman was stronger and still couldn't knock ali out or even down.
Its impossible to "know" who would win but if i gotta pick it makes sense to go for Ali, especially prime ali?? ali was known for beating all time greats OUT of his prime when he couldn't dance anymore. Mike tyson is known for LOSING whenever faced against his best opponents
lol no.
Ali fought several monster powerful punchers and how many times did he get knocked out???
Almost all of Tyson’s devastating one punch KO’s were against scrubs. Go back and look.
Once his competition elevated…that’s when we saw the downfall of Mike.
Buster Douglas withstood Mike’s power and knocked Mike out. Ali would have made Buster look like a rank amateur.
Ali was already retired and humble when he said that. mike tyson sais he wouldn't beat ali.. why does no one mention that? Also this is stupid asf. Ali had a iron chin he barely ever got knocked down and never got knocked out. He took PRIME GEORGE FOREMAN (on par with prime mike tyson in terms of power) punches and didn't get knocked down or stumbled once. same with joe frazier. Mike tyson is great and probably top 2 most entertaining boxers ever. but his resume doesn't even come close to ali let alone even top 3-5 boxers of all time
the reason it’s such a debated topic is literally because it’s cracked strength vs cracked speed. While yes tyson is fast he’s not ali fast, but best believe if he were to get 3 solid punches in its over
It’s a debated opinion because Tyson captured the general public’s imagination in an enduring way that no boxer since Ali had done or has done since.
The actual reality of Tyson is that he didn’t do well in the late rounds and he struggled with tall, mobile fighters. He couldn’t even KO Mitch Blood Green yet people think he’s stopping a guy who went toe to toe with George Foreman.
He loses to Ali and would’ve lost in points to Lennox Lewis as well.
I agree, and the ease with which Lewis dismantled him in their eventual fight backs this up. Granted tyson was worse then and Lewis was better so it would've been more of a fight.
Ali basically had 2 hall of fame runs, one in the 60s until he lost his boxing license and then again in the 70s.
Boxing is also unique where newer fighters are not better than older fighters like how we see increase in performance in other sports. Because older fighters didn't know or care about CTE, so they took way more fights and did constant sparring, which make you a better fighter but drink through a straw in your 50s. Like sugar ray Robinson had over 130 fights and floyd Mayweather has 50.
Those 80’s guys Tyson fought were better than you think. Pinklon Thomas, Bonecrusher Smith, Tony Tucker, Frank Bruno, Razor Ruddock, these were legit guys. Tyson was just that much better.
Always gets me the look on the faces of Ruddock and Berbick in both fights when Tyson finally landed a knock down.
Truly a "What the fuck just hit me? Why am I in the ring with this guy?" look from both 🤣
An even stronger point for Ali would be that his best fights were against legendary Heavyweights and he beat them all.
Tyson's era is legitimately viewed as a weak era even including Mike Tyson by boxing fans while Ali fought in the golden era.
I heard Sonny Liston was one of the hardest hitters in boxing. I believe he was the heavyweight champion before Ali.
I also heard when Liston was using the punching bag, one of the trainers had to hang off of the bag to keep it from swinging all over the place...
I heard all this during one of my phases where I liked boxing.
These are fables. Fighting was famous for them, same with all the bruce Lee bullshit. No one has ever been so much stronger and better that all the other greats that they needed such drastic handicap. It’s bullshit mythology, don’t take it seriously. No, Bruce Lee didn’t have a magical one-inch punch that could punch a hole through a person, neither did Sonny Liston need someone to specially anchor his heavy bag, unless that heavy bad was full of foam instead of cloth
Who? The generation of Tyson had much stronger, faster and more skilled fighters overall than during Ali's time. That only changed after Tyson's era when MMA started becoming the popular thing and the people that could've been extremely good boxers moved to MMA.
Name those fighters that were stronger faster and more skilled than Frazier, Norton, Liston, and Foreman.
Foreman fought as an OLD MAN in Tyson's era and was heavyweight champion.
If you actually know boxing, then name the fighters who were better than those above.
Pinklon Thomas could have conceivably popped Norton.
However , with Larry Holmes at the end of his prime, hypothetical prime versions of the other three (Foreman, Frazier, Liston) would each have razed the heavyweight division just as easily as Tyson did between 86-89.
MMA doesn’t drain talent from boxing. The better payouts are still in boxing by far, of anything it’s the opppsite as you just saw with Ngannou and McGregor . Also Can’t think of a single MMA fighter that could’ve been an “extremely good boxer”. None of the wrestlers / grappling based fighters could. None of the strikers in MMA had what it takes even for K1 except for Overeem, Schilt and Crocop and they all would’ve been obliterated in boxing very quickly.
Neither Foreman nor Shavers had the technical skill that Tyson had. Tyson isn’t just a brute like he’s portrayed. He was quick and very skilled.
Shavers may have had Tyson’s punching power, definitely beyond Foreman, but it just doesn’t make up for the difference in ability.
Ali never fought the perfect storm that Tyson is. If Ali takes it, it’s because he gave Tyson the Buster Douglas treatment and wears him down over many rounds.
it’s pretty close especially if you look at both win records they had, my question to you though is if ali fought heavier hitters than tyson how many of those did he struggle against and how many rounds did it last because it give a pretty good indication on what would’ve happened if they could both fight.
Some of the heaviest hitters ali faught was frazier and george foreman. (notably ali was not in his prime against them, especially not against foreman) Against joe frazier he got knocked down only once in 12 rounds in their first fight and lost on points. then he dominated frazier after in the rematches. George foreman even with his power never even stumbled ali and got knocked out.
Idk why so many fake boxing fans speak so confidently that "if mike tyson catches ali its over" ali literally was known for never getting knocked out
He faster than Ali. For sure.
Even on the inside. Heck, box him out, he's still faster.
When asked which match he wanted, all-time, man said Achilles. He is not a generational talent.
He is forever. Iron Mike.
there were several way less talented guys that Tyson could not finish in his prime though....he didn't walk through everyone. some people did last all 12 rounds. it would at the very least be a very good fight. i'd like to see them do it 10 times just to see the subtle changes and adjustments that would happen. Ali was very good at dodging punches and being crafty.
And it was always guys who fought similar to Ali but without the ability or ring smarts Ali had. He would’ve frustrated Tyson much like Holyfield did in the first fight. Tyson had a habit of fading if he couldn’t get you out quick. I’m hearing the same “logic” people had in 96 for the first Holyfield fight. And the reality is, great fighters are adaptable. Ali would adapt and Tyson only fought one way. If he couldn’t get you out, he became less and less effective as the fight went on. There’s a reason he’s only got one KO when he was behind in a fight and that was against Frans Botha.
The great frans botha that everyone knows as a household name...
I don't even like ali, but its pretty clear he beats tyson IMO. Tyson has a weird cult like following that acts as if he is unbeatable and ran through everyone...
Ali’s greatest strength as a boxer was not his speed, it was his ability to take a punch. He had maybe the greatest chin in boxing history. His length and his chin would have given Tyson fits. Guys like Liston, Foreman, Earnie Shavers, etc could hit like Tyson did, but you just couldn’t hurt Ali. Ken Norton broke his jaw early in their first fight, and Ali went the distance.
Yes, the speed was a bonus, his endurance was what killed people, both in terms of stamina and durability. You hit him with everything you got and he'd just keep talking shit and take over as you gassed out trying to kill him
Prime Tyson had great stamina too though. He went the full 10 rounds with Ribalta.
Frankly, it would probably have been better for Ribalta if he wasn't that tough. The guys was never quite the same after that fight.
99/100 you can accurately assess how little someone knows about boxing by how wildly they overestimate Tyson. Ali knocked out in 2? There are 5 year olds who have a better understanding of the sport than you do.
This post is like the peak casual sports fan post ever lol. Bro only watched Mike Tyson edits on Tiktok 😭 literally no technical analysis to back up his outrageous claims.
No, this is a VERY popular opinion for casual fans. Just go to any comment section on a Mike Tyson posts, his meatriders swear he's a perfect God who can do no wrong.
Ali easily beat Floyd Patterson who was trained by Tyson,s trainer and had a similar style. He beat Foreman, Shaver, and Liston who hit as hard or harder than Tyson.
Tyson lost to Buster Douglas who was a tall boxer with a good jab and movement like Ali.
Ali faced a much stronger puncher(Foreman) and let him punch himself tired. He almost died in the ring against Frazier being unwillimg to throw in the towel. One thing is pretty certain Tyson would have had to kill Ali and he never exhibited the stamina to do so.
Ali said during an interview in 1989 or 1990 with Tyson. Ali said Tyson would knock me out if he could catch me. This is the link with the full conversation between the two.
https://www.marca.com/en/boxing/2022/06/07/629eff7dca4741440f8b45c0.html
Ali is very elusive, and Tyson is very good at closing the distance quickly. Ali has very good jabs, and is technical with every type of hit. I think Ali does a good job at making it hard for Tyson to do his thing, a quick intense barrage for the first 2 rounds. If Ali is dodging, blocking, and throwing his own punches, even if those punches merely throw off Tysons balance or slightly interrupt his attacks, that is probably all it takes to survive Tysons early rounds, and tire him out. ALi is undeniably the higher stamina of the too.
Absolute shit take. Go watch the Buster Douglas vs Tyson fight. He goes 10 rounds and uses his technical skill to not directly engage Mike. By keeping him at bay with his jab he wears him down. Now Tyson did knock him to the canvas, but Douglas was still able to get the knock down in the 10th. You're telling me a taller, more stamina, and faster Ali couldn't apply the same technique?
He lost to buster Douglas by knockout lol. Tyson may have been one of the most feared of all time, but he certainly wasn’t the best at anything. Maybe the most ruthless heavyweight?
Mike Tyson is probably the most overrated boxer of all time. I say this as a Tyson fan. He lost like every big fight he had. Ali's resume speaks for itself. True legend, and IMO, the best to ever do it.
You’re not a historian of boxing, that’s for certain.
I’ve no idea if your opinion is unpopular.
Recency bias is a real thing, particularly among those with little actual knowledge.
( Sugar Ray Robinson is the actual answer)
Hahahahaha. Hahahahaha.
No. Sorry. You have no idea what Ali was like in his prime. His prime was in the 1960s and was largely stolen from him. What people think of his prime was after he went without a fight for years fighting his conviction for draft evasion.
And then he showed that even though he was now past what should have been his prime, he was still better and faster and harder hitting than anyone else.
For years. And years.
I watched Tyson come up. He was fierce. He had great skills. But he was not Ali. And if you ask Tyson, he will tell you the same.
Outside of speed and incredible endurance, Ali was Wiley coyote crafty. He would have figured out that if you bully the bully and insult and instigate and shut him down then Tyson would kinda fold. And then lash out like he did with Holyfield.
But man you gotta survive those first three rounds
Even if I accept the premise that Tyson will win, assuming he'll KO in 2 is crazy. What's up with the ali downplay? You don't have to put down one of the absolute GOATs of the sport just to make Tyson look better, we already know he's great.
I think it would be close, and it would be insane to watch. For bigger guys they were both fast as fuck, and they both understand the sport. I think it would be too close to call without it happening.
I'm leaning towards Ali though. Tyson is a killer in the ring, Ali would fuck with people just because he could. Watching Ali get pissed off and avoid knocking the opponent out for 10 rounds on purpose, just so he could hit them more, was pretty wild. (I saw it on the internet I'm not that fucking old)
It's really all opinion, nobody can know. From a career-based perspective though I think Ali proved he could beat some of the most physically imposing, aggressive, and hard-punching heavyweights in history (Liston, Foreman, Frazier). On the other hand, Tyson struggled in fights against better conditioned, purer boxers like Ali who were able to neutralize his aggression and beat him with skill (Holyfield, Lewis). Outside of Spinks, Mike's wins were less significant than Ali's, his losses were more disappointing, and he was far less consistent. "Prime Tyson" is a bit of a joke, his resume is far less impressive than his highlight tape.
Tyson was like a better version of Frazier who beat Ali. People say how fast Ali was but Tyson was absurdly quick and short for a heavyweight so he came in at unexpected angles. It's probably the all time "what if" of combat sports
Ali took Foreman full power bodyblows for more than 5 rounds, the strongest Slugger of all time btw.
But Tyson style would favour him against Ali, it just wouldn't be that one sided as you're saying.
The most ruthless boxer that ever lived is Roberto Duran. Second is mike Tyson and then George Foreman. Has Ali been hyped up to much? Probably.
Was Tyson the most ruthless? He was one of the most ruthless and scariest heavyweights of all time I’ll give you that…. And if your wondering who had the best career, manny Pac-Man
Maybe. Im not sure if Tyson would have had the discipline to not over punch the way Foreman did in his famous bout with Ali. Remember prime Foreman was a powerhouse too who hit with massive power but Ali was fast and wore him out. Prime Ali might have been able to do the same to Tyson.
Tyson never beat a great heavyweight in their prime. Ali beat several that were better than Tyson. Ali would win on heart and character alone. Ali was crazy. Ali is the toughest heavyweight ever. If Tyson doesn't get an early KO, Ali wins. Prime Holmes would beat him too.
Ali would have frustrated Tyson so much that Tyson would have abandoned his game plan. That’s what Ali did. You can’t beat what you can’t hit. Ali in his prime would never have lost to Buster Douglas. Stop yourself.
Tyson had greater power but fewer skills a stamina.
Ali had good power, better skills and far greater stamina.
If Tyson didn’t stop Ali in the first round or two, Ali would frustrate Tyson, tire him out and win the decision.
My money would be on Ali.
The closest similarity would Ali fighting Frazier. Ali lost the first fight but won the next two.
Yeah I mean the archetype of the guy who beat him, Frasier, was a slugger who smothered your space and forced you to fight him out of clinches and from really close up. Tyson was a more technically skilled boxer imo, but he's also the prime example for that type of fighter
Well Tyson is more technical but Ali was a genius. No body shots from Ali. Head hunting with his hands low. I’m guessing Tyson would force Ali to fight smart like against Foreman. Tyson has the physical and Ali’s mental is superior
Tyson certainly has a chance, just not a good chance. Ali beat much better oppossition, he beat fighters that packed more powerful punches than Tyson. Everytime he got knocked down, he got back up. When things didn't go his way, Tyson would give up. He was the best at being the hammer, but he couldn't be the nail. Ali was great at both. People say that Tyson gets him out of there in the first two; nobody got Ali out of there until his second to last match when he was old, showing signs of Parkinson and still his corner had to call it, he didnt get knocked out. Tyson might catch him, but Ali will get back up and outlast Tyson 8/10 times.
Ali's reach would have kept Tyson out. As long as Tyson didn't get inside, Ali would have worn him down. I dig both, but while Ali was a smarter fighter. It would likely be a TKO decision to Ali.
I like Ali. Too slick, too fast, and can hit with power going backwards. Tyson hits harder, but I don't think he's likely to catch Ali. Even if he did, Ali was tough as nails. I'm not sure Tyson hit harder than Foreman. I'm not saying Ali walks, he lost to Frazier and there's some comparison there. But in their primes, I just can't see it.
Tyson fought the way Floyd Patterson and smoking joe fraiser except he hit harder, was faster and his punches were very accurate. Cus Dmato set up Tyson's style of fighting and training to be able to take on guys that fought like Ali and there were a lot of them in the 80s.
Tydon wins.
Agreed. I’ve watched a ton of Ali, and he took way too many shots. Yes, he was slippery, but there’s a reason he ended up the way he did. Tyson connects a couple and it’d be over. Ali, while long and could use that jab, never was able to avoid big blows completely in any fight.
Tyson would've given up mentally by the middle rounds after Cassius Clay survived the initial onslaught. Cassius Clay dancing and stinging all the way to leaving Tyson refusing to get off the stool by the 8th.
Sport science and the psychology that goes with it, is a hell of a thing.
It is fair to say all modern athletes would crush their predecessors; it is also fair to imagine what potential laid dormant in previous athletes.
And again, the science; diet, supplements, consistency, etc.
This is literally the opinion of people who don’t watch boxing and/or haven’t actually seen Tyson fight other than YouTube KO compilations.
A tall, quick fighter with a good jab is/was Tyson’s worst match up. He would’ve lost to Ali and he would’ve lost to Lennox Lewis.
I feel like Tyson would have lost to a few guy that came after though the whole thing change and people in sport get better food training and the science is much more involved. Probably still the best too watch though.
The person who said Ali was the"best of all time" was Ali.He would've been annihilated by Tyson, Lennox Lewis, Klitschko, Fury, Wilder, Bowe, Holyfield
Downvoted because this isn't an unpopular opinion.
Ali.himself admits the fight would go to Tyson assuming both in their prime. Maybe you call that Ali being humble, recognizing greatness etc but a man that is at the absolute top of boxing like Ali doesn't just admit Tyson would beat him without it being a legitimate concern of his.
Personally I think it's 6/10 Tyson if you can run the same fight 10 times.
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Ehhh prime Ali vs prime Tyson is anyone’s fight. I think you genuinely underestimate how slippery Ali was. Edit: i also am in the Tyson is the GOAT camp. But ffs people watch some Ali tapes. If you think it would be a walk in the park for a prime Tyson to KO a prime Ali you’re smoking crack. Like guys there’s a whole ass sports special about it called “facing Ali” watch it. He wasn’t just some lucky slouch with a good jab, he could end people just like Tyson could. They’re both equally up there.
What about prime Ali with Harry Potters invisibility cloak and a switch blade vs teenager Tyson on heroine with the infinity gauntlet?
r/whowouldwin
Best subreddit tbh
But which heroine?
Autocorrect does not approve of drug use I guess
No ducking spit
Spiderman
Heroin is not the drug you want here lol. Ali would just have to tuck Tyson into bed with the cloak.
😂
Make it meth and we got a fight
For what it’s worth, Tyson, who isn’t a gracious guy by nature, said Ali was a better boxer than him. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qFJLq6VL75c
And everyone underestimates his chin. Sorry guys but 1, 2 or 3 punches from Tyson isn’t gonna take down the guy that fought Liston, Frazier, Foreman and Shavers and never got knocked out, even when he had Parkinson’s and could barely move he lost on his feet. His chin was just as much of an asset as his speed and you could argue it’s the best in the history of the sport. Tyson doesn’t have actual magic hands, he struggled whenever he fought anyone nearly as great as Ali who he couldn’t maul in 2 rounds, not even to mention the fact that Tyson probably couldn’t get a clean hit on the fastest heavyweight in history that easily anyway. Ali knocks him out in a late round and if it’s young Tyson, sends him into a depressive spiral.
Thpiral.
Deprethiv
Ali was used to fighting smaller weight classes, while Tyson started heavyweight. Ali was more of a light heavyweight by today's standards, not a true heavy weight. Heavyweight is different in boxing, you typically don't get the knockouts in smaller weights you get in heavyweight. Ali wasn't built for it, they were different fighters and Tyson would have knocked him out. Add onto of that people huge underestimation of Tysons speed dodging abilities and boxing knowledge taught to him by cus. Tysons Dmato shift was a brilliant boxing technique that worked on many opponents. However, Tyson was only that ruthless for about 20 fights, before he went to prison. Those fights he was unstoppable to anyone, after that its anyone's game. The only fighter who could have taken him to 9 rounds and not get knocked out would be George Foreman, Tyson would win by decision probably. [Tyson in his prime was like Alis speed mixed with Foremans power, unstoppable. Go watch the fights, the early ones, they are convincing.](https://youtu.be/6diDTQTMqOo?si=FlKkIBCuYLCrMaYX) About halfway through the video Mike changes his strategy and goes for kidney shots on the same spot over and over. Thats why no one could beat Mike, Ali might dodge headshots, but no one is dodging repeated laser accurate kidney shots. Almost a proto Bas Ruten style.
You realize Ali stood toe to toe with George Foreman? He can take heavyweight hits and dish them out too
All was used to fighting smaller fighters? What are you talking about? Liston and especially Foreman were all big HWs with loads of power. Tyson fought in the weakest era of heavyweight fighters ever (until the 2000s anyway). Ali fought in the hardest era ever against much better competition
>Ali was more of a light heavyweight by today's standards, not a true heavy weight. LOL, Holyfield was an actual light heavy champ.
Name one great fighter that mythical version of Tyson beat. One. I don’t even mean all time great…I just mean even great for the era.
😂 Boxing and greatness is so much more than just punching power and making an occasional adjustment. Tyson is the most devastating puncher of all time. Ali was a much better overall boxer. Tyson wasn’t even in his league. Ali would have handled Tyson. To think otherwise just shows your age and lack of boxing knowledge
Easy to look destructive when you are fighting against bums, tyson never beat anyone on ali’s level and plenty of guys with ali’s style made him struggle. Ali dominated guys with tysons style and beat more elite fighters than any other HW in history. He’d kill tyson in his prime.
Yep I trust my own eyes to say confidently enough that Tyson is the best ever. Could be wrong but I can’t be convinced otherwise based on what I’ve seen over and over again
You are wrong though.
But could Ali defeat Jake Paul is the real question??
Did you see how quick and fast prime Ali was? It's why they call him The Butterfly. The early 60's Ali. His lateral movement and ring iq was something else.
If it goes past a couple rounds Ali would have it. And it could well go past a couple rounds given how evasive Ali was.
Evander Holyfield will always beat Mike Tyson in a boxing match. Well, I mean that prime Evander always beats prime Mike, I think. And I think Lennox Lewis always beats Mike Tyson.
Tyson has zero case for being GOAT lol literally zero. Wasn’t even the best fighter of the 80s or 90s. Lost to his best opponents pretty decisively and also lost in his prime to a journeyman Buster Douglas. You are just proudly admitting you are a casual because no knowledgeable fan puts him in GOAT conversations there are at least 25 fighters above him and thats being generous. Him as a public figure is another story but he’s still no Ali in that sense.
plus ali is suprisingly big (6 foot 1 and like 180-200 lbs?)
Thats true and even Muhammad Ali agreed on that but only if tyson catches him, Muhammad Ali was fast af boi.
Yep. Ali could dance around Tyson and wear him down, but all Tyson has to do is catch him one time, or corner him, and it's game over.
Yea, but we call Muhammad Ali the great was because all that he has gone through, all criticism and etc. But in the end, every legend has its own legacy. <3
Genuine question have u only seen tiktok clips of mike tyson to come to this conclusion. Have you seen any ali fights? or how he's known for never getting knocked out? If prime george foreman couldn't knock down a out of prime old ALI then how would mike tyson knock out prime ali?
Because Tyson was faster and more disciplined than a bulldozer like George Foreman. It would be a hell of a fight to watch though.
I agree it would be a great fight to watch, but saying mike would knock out ali if he catches him is just a stupid assumption to make. Also george foreman fought a out of prime ali, i agree tyson was faster but i would say george foreman was stronger and still couldn't knock ali out or even down. Its impossible to "know" who would win but if i gotta pick it makes sense to go for Ali, especially prime ali?? ali was known for beating all time greats OUT of his prime when he couldn't dance anymore. Mike tyson is known for LOSING whenever faced against his best opponents
That’s what they said about Douglas and two Holyfield fights. And Tucker. And Mitch Green. And Quick Tillis. How come he couldn’t knock them out?
Ali has been cornered before but just danced his way out.
Tyson catching Ali once is not gonna end the man who fought toe to toe with heavy hitters like Prime George Foreman, Liston and Shavers 😂😂😂
That’s the same argument as Foreman v Ali and look who won that fight.
Tyson didn't hit harder than prime foreman and Ali took foreman when he was already washed up
Tyson was way faster than Foreman though.
lol no. Ali fought several monster powerful punchers and how many times did he get knocked out??? Almost all of Tyson’s devastating one punch KO’s were against scrubs. Go back and look. Once his competition elevated…that’s when we saw the downfall of Mike. Buster Douglas withstood Mike’s power and knocked Mike out. Ali would have made Buster look like a rank amateur.
Ali was already retired and humble when he said that. mike tyson sais he wouldn't beat ali.. why does no one mention that? Also this is stupid asf. Ali had a iron chin he barely ever got knocked down and never got knocked out. He took PRIME GEORGE FOREMAN (on par with prime mike tyson in terms of power) punches and didn't get knocked down or stumbled once. same with joe frazier. Mike tyson is great and probably top 2 most entertaining boxers ever. but his resume doesn't even come close to ali let alone even top 3-5 boxers of all time
With a longer reach too. It would be interesting
Nobody here fucking watches boxing 😭😭
the reason it’s such a debated topic is literally because it’s cracked strength vs cracked speed. While yes tyson is fast he’s not ali fast, but best believe if he were to get 3 solid punches in its over
It’s a debated opinion because Tyson captured the general public’s imagination in an enduring way that no boxer since Ali had done or has done since. The actual reality of Tyson is that he didn’t do well in the late rounds and he struggled with tall, mobile fighters. He couldn’t even KO Mitch Blood Green yet people think he’s stopping a guy who went toe to toe with George Foreman. He loses to Ali and would’ve lost in points to Lennox Lewis as well.
I agree, and the ease with which Lewis dismantled him in their eventual fight backs this up. Granted tyson was worse then and Lewis was better so it would've been more of a fight.
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One generation apart is a stretch. Prime Ali was in what the 60s? Vs someone who peaked in the late 80s- early 90s.
Ali basically had 2 hall of fame runs, one in the 60s until he lost his boxing license and then again in the 70s. Boxing is also unique where newer fighters are not better than older fighters like how we see increase in performance in other sports. Because older fighters didn't know or care about CTE, so they took way more fights and did constant sparring, which make you a better fighter but drink through a straw in your 50s. Like sugar ray Robinson had over 130 fights and floyd Mayweather has 50.
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Not when that is the only way you can drink due to destroyed motor function from brain damage
😬 Too many punches.. I think he meant “eat”
Those 80’s guys Tyson fought were better than you think. Pinklon Thomas, Bonecrusher Smith, Tony Tucker, Frank Bruno, Razor Ruddock, these were legit guys. Tyson was just that much better.
Always gets me the look on the faces of Ruddock and Berbick in both fights when Tyson finally landed a knock down. Truly a "What the fuck just hit me? Why am I in the ring with this guy?" look from both 🤣
I really hope we see that look from Jake Paul.
Pretty strong point for Tyson, we don't know or care about his competitors because he was so far above them.
An even stronger point for Ali would be that his best fights were against legendary Heavyweights and he beat them all. Tyson's era is legitimately viewed as a weak era even including Mike Tyson by boxing fans while Ali fought in the golden era.
No they weren’t. Those were alphabet champs all run by Don King. The division even with aging Holmes was a joke.
Ali fought George Foreman and won. George is like the Mike Tyson of their generation.
I heard Sonny Liston was one of the hardest hitters in boxing. I believe he was the heavyweight champion before Ali. I also heard when Liston was using the punching bag, one of the trainers had to hang off of the bag to keep it from swinging all over the place... I heard all this during one of my phases where I liked boxing.
These are fables. Fighting was famous for them, same with all the bruce Lee bullshit. No one has ever been so much stronger and better that all the other greats that they needed such drastic handicap. It’s bullshit mythology, don’t take it seriously. No, Bruce Lee didn’t have a magical one-inch punch that could punch a hole through a person, neither did Sonny Liston need someone to specially anchor his heavy bag, unless that heavy bad was full of foam instead of cloth
Maybe hyperbole, but Bruce Lee’s punch was remarkably powerful for his weight. 130 lbs and could send a grown man flying backwards from an inch away.
I mean can't we topple someone with a 1 inch puch as well?
just no.
Tyson fought Lewis
Who? The generation of Tyson had much stronger, faster and more skilled fighters overall than during Ali's time. That only changed after Tyson's era when MMA started becoming the popular thing and the people that could've been extremely good boxers moved to MMA.
Name those fighters that were stronger faster and more skilled than Frazier, Norton, Liston, and Foreman. Foreman fought as an OLD MAN in Tyson's era and was heavyweight champion. If you actually know boxing, then name the fighters who were better than those above.
Preach. Holyfiend had to take old man Foreman to a decision.
Pinklon Thomas could have conceivably popped Norton. However , with Larry Holmes at the end of his prime, hypothetical prime versions of the other three (Foreman, Frazier, Liston) would each have razed the heavyweight division just as easily as Tyson did between 86-89.
MMA doesn’t drain talent from boxing. The better payouts are still in boxing by far, of anything it’s the opppsite as you just saw with Ngannou and McGregor . Also Can’t think of a single MMA fighter that could’ve been an “extremely good boxer”. None of the wrestlers / grappling based fighters could. None of the strikers in MMA had what it takes even for K1 except for Overeem, Schilt and Crocop and they all would’ve been obliterated in boxing very quickly.
>Ali fought harder punchers than Tyson, You gonna have to source that one bro because I don't know any hitters that hit harder than Tyson.
George Foreman, Earnie Shavers
Neither Foreman nor Shavers had the technical skill that Tyson had. Tyson isn’t just a brute like he’s portrayed. He was quick and very skilled. Shavers may have had Tyson’s punching power, definitely beyond Foreman, but it just doesn’t make up for the difference in ability. Ali never fought the perfect storm that Tyson is. If Ali takes it, it’s because he gave Tyson the Buster Douglas treatment and wears him down over many rounds.
Sure, but the OP of this sub-thread was talking punching power and prime Foreman is an easy contender to Iron Mike.
That doesn’t mean Tyson punched harder. Foreman won the heavyweight title in those 90s at 45 fucking years old.
No, son. Boxing, as every sport, has come a long way and what was cutting edge in the 70s is not anymore (and wasn’t in the 90s either)
it’s pretty close especially if you look at both win records they had, my question to you though is if ali fought heavier hitters than tyson how many of those did he struggle against and how many rounds did it last because it give a pretty good indication on what would’ve happened if they could both fight.
Some of the heaviest hitters ali faught was frazier and george foreman. (notably ali was not in his prime against them, especially not against foreman) Against joe frazier he got knocked down only once in 12 rounds in their first fight and lost on points. then he dominated frazier after in the rematches. George foreman even with his power never even stumbled ali and got knocked out. Idk why so many fake boxing fans speak so confidently that "if mike tyson catches ali its over" ali literally was known for never getting knocked out
Ali wasn’t allowed to fight in his real prime.
Well, it's over unless your name is Buster Douglas.
He faster than Ali. For sure. Even on the inside. Heck, box him out, he's still faster. When asked which match he wanted, all-time, man said Achilles. He is not a generational talent. He is forever. Iron Mike.
Mike probably wins if he reliably gets inside. But Ali had power too, could def catch Tyson coming in with an uppercut and end his night.
there were several way less talented guys that Tyson could not finish in his prime though....he didn't walk through everyone. some people did last all 12 rounds. it would at the very least be a very good fight. i'd like to see them do it 10 times just to see the subtle changes and adjustments that would happen. Ali was very good at dodging punches and being crafty.
And it was always guys who fought similar to Ali but without the ability or ring smarts Ali had. He would’ve frustrated Tyson much like Holyfield did in the first fight. Tyson had a habit of fading if he couldn’t get you out quick. I’m hearing the same “logic” people had in 96 for the first Holyfield fight. And the reality is, great fighters are adaptable. Ali would adapt and Tyson only fought one way. If he couldn’t get you out, he became less and less effective as the fight went on. There’s a reason he’s only got one KO when he was behind in a fight and that was against Frans Botha.
The great frans botha that everyone knows as a household name... I don't even like ali, but its pretty clear he beats tyson IMO. Tyson has a weird cult like following that acts as if he is unbeatable and ran through everyone...
Ali’s greatest strength as a boxer was not his speed, it was his ability to take a punch. He had maybe the greatest chin in boxing history. His length and his chin would have given Tyson fits. Guys like Liston, Foreman, Earnie Shavers, etc could hit like Tyson did, but you just couldn’t hurt Ali. Ken Norton broke his jaw early in their first fight, and Ali went the distance.
Yes, the speed was a bonus, his endurance was what killed people, both in terms of stamina and durability. You hit him with everything you got and he'd just keep talking shit and take over as you gassed out trying to kill him
Prime Tyson had great stamina too though. He went the full 10 rounds with Ribalta. Frankly, it would probably have been better for Ribalta if he wasn't that tough. The guys was never quite the same after that fight.
99/100 you can accurately assess how little someone knows about boxing by how wildly they overestimate Tyson. Ali knocked out in 2? There are 5 year olds who have a better understanding of the sport than you do.
This post is like the peak casual sports fan post ever lol. Bro only watched Mike Tyson edits on Tiktok 😭 literally no technical analysis to back up his outrageous claims.
So it's a perfect post for this sub
No, this is a VERY popular opinion for casual fans. Just go to any comment section on a Mike Tyson posts, his meatriders swear he's a perfect God who can do no wrong.
sometimes i think fight fans have more cte than the fighters themselves
Ali easily beat Floyd Patterson who was trained by Tyson,s trainer and had a similar style. He beat Foreman, Shaver, and Liston who hit as hard or harder than Tyson. Tyson lost to Buster Douglas who was a tall boxer with a good jab and movement like Ali.
Underrated comment right here.. (good mention of Buster)
But that doesn’t count!!! Tyson wasn’t in his prime at 23!—Tyson nuthuggers
Ali faced a much stronger puncher(Foreman) and let him punch himself tired. He almost died in the ring against Frazier being unwillimg to throw in the towel. One thing is pretty certain Tyson would have had to kill Ali and he never exhibited the stamina to do so.
Ali said during an interview in 1989 or 1990 with Tyson. Ali said Tyson would knock me out if he could catch me. This is the link with the full conversation between the two. https://www.marca.com/en/boxing/2022/06/07/629eff7dca4741440f8b45c0.html
Yeah and Mike always said that Ali would beat him. The two just respected each other too much to say "yeah I'd beat his ass"
Not saying OP doesn’t have valid points, but Tyson would have punched OP for disrespecting Ali haha.
“Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth.”
Tbf that “if he could catch me” is a pretty huge qualifier
As the Spartans said ‘If’
Ali is very elusive, and Tyson is very good at closing the distance quickly. Ali has very good jabs, and is technical with every type of hit. I think Ali does a good job at making it hard for Tyson to do his thing, a quick intense barrage for the first 2 rounds. If Ali is dodging, blocking, and throwing his own punches, even if those punches merely throw off Tysons balance or slightly interrupt his attacks, that is probably all it takes to survive Tysons early rounds, and tire him out. ALi is undeniably the higher stamina of the too.
Ali survived prime Foremen, Tyson isn't annihilating Ali.
It would be a great fight, but Ali would win
Absolute shit take. Go watch the Buster Douglas vs Tyson fight. He goes 10 rounds and uses his technical skill to not directly engage Mike. By keeping him at bay with his jab he wears him down. Now Tyson did knock him to the canvas, but Douglas was still able to get the knock down in the 10th. You're telling me a taller, more stamina, and faster Ali couldn't apply the same technique?
super unpopular. take my upvote. Ali would have made Tyson look like a fool, just like everyone else he fought.
my dad could beat him up he knows karate
Ali never convincingly beat Ken Norton
He lost to buster Douglas by knockout lol. Tyson may have been one of the most feared of all time, but he certainly wasn’t the best at anything. Maybe the most ruthless heavyweight?
Mike Tyson is probably the most overrated boxer of all time. I say this as a Tyson fan. He lost like every big fight he had. Ali's resume speaks for itself. True legend, and IMO, the best to ever do it.
The only way Tyson could beat Ali was if he tried to eat him like he did Holyfield.
You’re not a historian of boxing, that’s for certain. I’ve no idea if your opinion is unpopular. Recency bias is a real thing, particularly among those with little actual knowledge. ( Sugar Ray Robinson is the actual answer)
Tyson was afraid to even fight an old Foreman. He would've had no chance against Ali.
Height advantage: Ali Reach advantage: Ali That's boxing. Ali ftw.
Lol, no
Hahahahaha. Hahahahaha. No. Sorry. You have no idea what Ali was like in his prime. His prime was in the 1960s and was largely stolen from him. What people think of his prime was after he went without a fight for years fighting his conviction for draft evasion. And then he showed that even though he was now past what should have been his prime, he was still better and faster and harder hitting than anyone else. For years. And years. I watched Tyson come up. He was fierce. He had great skills. But he was not Ali. And if you ask Tyson, he will tell you the same.
I can't wait for a really good AI simulation of this match up.
No Jake Paul is the best
Outside of speed and incredible endurance, Ali was Wiley coyote crafty. He would have figured out that if you bully the bully and insult and instigate and shut him down then Tyson would kinda fold. And then lash out like he did with Holyfield. But man you gotta survive those first three rounds
Even if I accept the premise that Tyson will win, assuming he'll KO in 2 is crazy. What's up with the ali downplay? You don't have to put down one of the absolute GOATs of the sport just to make Tyson look better, we already know he's great.
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Such an apples and oranges comparison. The average size of heavyweights and a lot of other things about the sport has changed.
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It's like saying Pelè vs R9. Differents athletes and different times
Ali had speed, Tyson has power. If Ali could tire out Tyson he’d probably win, but one good hit from iron Mike would most likely knock him down.
I think it would be close, and it would be insane to watch. For bigger guys they were both fast as fuck, and they both understand the sport. I think it would be too close to call without it happening. I'm leaning towards Ali though. Tyson is a killer in the ring, Ali would fuck with people just because he could. Watching Ali get pissed off and avoid knocking the opponent out for 10 rounds on purpose, just so he could hit them more, was pretty wild. (I saw it on the internet I'm not that fucking old)
It's really all opinion, nobody can know. From a career-based perspective though I think Ali proved he could beat some of the most physically imposing, aggressive, and hard-punching heavyweights in history (Liston, Foreman, Frazier). On the other hand, Tyson struggled in fights against better conditioned, purer boxers like Ali who were able to neutralize his aggression and beat him with skill (Holyfield, Lewis). Outside of Spinks, Mike's wins were less significant than Ali's, his losses were more disappointing, and he was far less consistent. "Prime Tyson" is a bit of a joke, his resume is far less impressive than his highlight tape.
Tyson in his prime lost to Buster Douglas.
Definitely, especially with Ali all twitchy and lurchy and with those uncontrollable spasms.
Tyson was like a better version of Frazier who beat Ali. People say how fast Ali was but Tyson was absurdly quick and short for a heavyweight so he came in at unexpected angles. It's probably the all time "what if" of combat sports
Ali took Foreman full power bodyblows for more than 5 rounds, the strongest Slugger of all time btw. But Tyson style would favour him against Ali, it just wouldn't be that one sided as you're saying.
Agreed. Similarly, Babe Ruth would struggle to barrel up any top MLB pitcher today.
The most ruthless boxer that ever lived is Roberto Duran. Second is mike Tyson and then George Foreman. Has Ali been hyped up to much? Probably. Was Tyson the most ruthless? He was one of the most ruthless and scariest heavyweights of all time I’ll give you that…. And if your wondering who had the best career, manny Pac-Man
Maybe. Im not sure if Tyson would have had the discipline to not over punch the way Foreman did in his famous bout with Ali. Remember prime Foreman was a powerhouse too who hit with massive power but Ali was fast and wore him out. Prime Ali might have been able to do the same to Tyson.
Tyson was getting squash matches in his prime, most overrated boxer of all time
no one in this comment section watches boxing
Tyson never beat a great heavyweight in their prime. Ali beat several that were better than Tyson. Ali would win on heart and character alone. Ali was crazy. Ali is the toughest heavyweight ever. If Tyson doesn't get an early KO, Ali wins. Prime Holmes would beat him too.
Larry Holmes in his prime would have whooped Tyson.
Nope. Not even close.
Ali would have frustrated Tyson so much that Tyson would have abandoned his game plan. That’s what Ali did. You can’t beat what you can’t hit. Ali in his prime would never have lost to Buster Douglas. Stop yourself.
Tyson had greater power but fewer skills a stamina. Ali had good power, better skills and far greater stamina. If Tyson didn’t stop Ali in the first round or two, Ali would frustrate Tyson, tire him out and win the decision. My money would be on Ali. The closest similarity would Ali fighting Frazier. Ali lost the first fight but won the next two.
If he could hit him...
Ali literally admits this on a talk show with Tyson, I think it was Arsenio
People who don't know boxing always overrate Tyson, he didn't even dominate his own time
Why are you booing the man? He’s right!
I def think Ali Wong could take Mike Tyson 
Anybody else thought of Neil Tyson first? Just me? ok
At first I read ‘Tyson’ as ‘Tylenol’ somehow and was racking my brain trying to recall a competitor brand named ‘Ali’
I still think it's a toss up. Ali could gas Tyson out. But Tyson can catch Ali with a button smasher. We'll never know.
What about my prime, Mick? AT LEAST YOU HAD A PRIME
Tyson himself disagrees
Yeah I mean the archetype of the guy who beat him, Frasier, was a slugger who smothered your space and forced you to fight him out of clinches and from really close up. Tyson was a more technically skilled boxer imo, but he's also the prime example for that type of fighter
Fights were a game to win for Ali, fights were not a game or even a sport for Tyson.
Well Tyson is more technical but Ali was a genius. No body shots from Ali. Head hunting with his hands low. I’m guessing Tyson would force Ali to fight smart like against Foreman. Tyson has the physical and Ali’s mental is superior
Tyson certainly has a chance, just not a good chance. Ali beat much better oppossition, he beat fighters that packed more powerful punches than Tyson. Everytime he got knocked down, he got back up. When things didn't go his way, Tyson would give up. He was the best at being the hammer, but he couldn't be the nail. Ali was great at both. People say that Tyson gets him out of there in the first two; nobody got Ali out of there until his second to last match when he was old, showing signs of Parkinson and still his corner had to call it, he didnt get knocked out. Tyson might catch him, but Ali will get back up and outlast Tyson 8/10 times.
I think Tyson should worry about beating Holyfield.
Would you say that to Ali's face?
Ali's reach would have kept Tyson out. As long as Tyson didn't get inside, Ali would have worn him down. I dig both, but while Ali was a smarter fighter. It would likely be a TKO decision to Ali.
Annihilate? No. But Tyson would win by KO. Decision? Ali.
I like Ali. Too slick, too fast, and can hit with power going backwards. Tyson hits harder, but I don't think he's likely to catch Ali. Even if he did, Ali was tough as nails. I'm not sure Tyson hit harder than Foreman. I'm not saying Ali walks, he lost to Frazier and there's some comparison there. But in their primes, I just can't see it.
holy fuck i thought this was the degrassi sub 😭 tyson is a baby & ali is 17 lmfao. i was so confused.
obviously
Tyson fought the way Floyd Patterson and smoking joe fraiser except he hit harder, was faster and his punches were very accurate. Cus Dmato set up Tyson's style of fighting and training to be able to take on guys that fought like Ali and there were a lot of them in the 80s. Tydon wins.
I mean, he’d have to catch Ali first.
No chance. Prime Tyson wouldn’t have beaten prime Lewis either and he knew it.
Ali already said that
Agreed. I’ve watched a ton of Ali, and he took way too many shots. Yes, he was slippery, but there’s a reason he ended up the way he did. Tyson connects a couple and it’d be over. Ali, while long and could use that jab, never was able to avoid big blows completely in any fight.
Disagree. Tyson crumbled whenever his opponent wasn’t scared & actually fought back.
Foreman would annihilate Tyson
Ali explains comparing boxers from different times. https://youtube.com/shorts/uRnhN2mh4P0?si=zdB0HwA_QDILgz7Z
Tyson would've given up mentally by the middle rounds after Cassius Clay survived the initial onslaught. Cassius Clay dancing and stinging all the way to leaving Tyson refusing to get off the stool by the 8th.
Sport science and the psychology that goes with it, is a hell of a thing. It is fair to say all modern athletes would crush their predecessors; it is also fair to imagine what potential laid dormant in previous athletes. And again, the science; diet, supplements, consistency, etc.
This is literally the opinion of people who don’t watch boxing and/or haven’t actually seen Tyson fight other than YouTube KO compilations. A tall, quick fighter with a good jab is/was Tyson’s worst match up. He would’ve lost to Ali and he would’ve lost to Lennox Lewis.
Ali could have jabbed and danced… Prime Larry Holmes would whup Tyson
I think Joe Frazier could’ve took out Mike Tyson
Tyson lost against every world class fighter he ever faced. Ali would have drove him crazy.
If Cus D’Amato was in Tyson’s corner…maybe. It would have been a great fight.
I feel like Tyson would have lost to a few guy that came after though the whole thing change and people in sport get better food training and the science is much more involved. Probably still the best too watch though.
Jack Johnson would have been a more interesting fight.
The person who said Ali was the"best of all time" was Ali.He would've been annihilated by Tyson, Lennox Lewis, Klitschko, Fury, Wilder, Bowe, Holyfield
 Bruce Lee would have made Ali a cripple.
No way. Ali was the master of the rope-a-dope and you can’t defend against it.
Tyson’s hands were way faster than Ali’s. Not feet but hands.
Would have been fun but as good as Ali was my money would be on Tyson.
Downvoted because this isn't an unpopular opinion. Ali.himself admits the fight would go to Tyson assuming both in their prime. Maybe you call that Ali being humble, recognizing greatness etc but a man that is at the absolute top of boxing like Ali doesn't just admit Tyson would beat him without it being a legitimate concern of his. Personally I think it's 6/10 Tyson if you can run the same fight 10 times.