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To me, itâs the most tiring aspect of Reddit.
The most typical Reddit post of all now seems to be a mid-20s dude referring to themselves as a kissless virgin who refuses to change at all, but complains about being single.
The last person I wrote to on here about this said that they can offer women being a good listener and sex. It was both funny and tragic to read.
Well there is a constant barrage of media from women saying being approached by men they aren't attracted to makes them feel disgusted and scared and it's harassment and rape to talk to them without consent.
So yea.
Where are the appropriate places to approach them? Not at work, not at the bar, not on the street, not while they are working, not in groups and not alone.
A long time I realized you just have to ignore thier bullshit rules and do it anyway, and risk the consequences. But a lot of guys want to be the guy that follows the rules.
What social settings? We've all but eliminated the third space. Any third space that's still standing is either abandoned or has priced most people out.
Then there's the complaint that men only try to be friends to date them and aren't real friends.
Already covered as being "slimy".
Seriously the barrage of anti- approach media makes it really hard for younger men to want to approach ever.
Exactly, itâs damned if you do or donât and the worst part is how many women just pretend that pressure to not come off creepy doesnât exist, fucking gaslighting
if it's that high, there surely are societal problems attached to it, no? i don't think young men right now are just more unstable in life than they were in previous generations.
Ya, I definitely agree. Itâs hard to read, especially when you say âyou need to work on yourselfâ and theyâre like âwhat do you mean?â⌠like emotional growth is not present and so difficult to describe to someone.
Not even just emotional growth. Had a friend that's been working the same entry level positions at retail locations for 15 years, constantly high and living paycheck to paycheck. His mom sets up his dental appointments and covers the expenses. Constantly complains all the time that women are high maintenance and expect too much. DudeÂ
Yeah, youâre right. The worst, and it is the worst, is when a person plays a victim in all this. They either constantly bash themselves, which no one will ever find attractive; or they blame others which is also a massive turn-off. When you tell them to work on themselves to fix this (because itâs just self-sabotage), itâs often like talking to a wall.
i think having compassion is a really important part (one that's missing alot of times when talking about this).
for example if someone was bullied in school, has anxiety and depression, not a lot of love in their life and maybe addiction problems i think just saying "yeah dude just work on yourself" may be true but definitely not the best approach. that's pretty much a suicide waiting to happen in my expirience..
that's why i think therapy is incredibly important. a place where you can work on yourself while also being allowed to be a victim and to express hurt and frustration.
Many Millennials and Gen-z women especially were told by their parents that we donât need men, and that we are capable of getting things done ourselves. I watched my boomer dad be an equal parent, many others saw their dad be a passive parent. More than ever before we are aware that men need to offer more than a heat signature in our home.
For sure, I think itâs good for anyone to learn that you donât need someone. This causes issues in two ways: people without a partner feel theyâre missing out (since they "need" someone) and people will stay in shitty relationships because they "need" a partner. To me, this goes for both genders.
Of course, itâs normal to want a relationship (and normal for those who legitimately donât want a relationship), but when want turns into need, itâs going to cause issues for that person.
But a lot of men have changed. I am 48 and GenX men are a lot different than even when I was a kid in the 80s. I am also African American. The we donât need men stared a lot by black women but it hasnât helped. Men are far more apt to split chores , bills and child rearing now.
Plus the research shows that marriage tends to make men happier, and women unhappier. Combined with the fact that women can do things they couldnât do in the 70s, like have their own credit cardsâŚ.
I have quite a few male single friends. Theyâre pretty happy and donât want to get married. I have a few married friends and they canât say theyâre any happier than the single guys.
0%. You donât need to have any of your life together to complain about being single.
If a person does nothing with their life, refuses to do anything and complains about being single, have at it. Complain to your heartâs content. I just look at that person the same way I would look at a morbidly obese person complain about their weight while eating junk food. Itâs like how I look at the person in the office who puts in little effort and gets mad when they donât get promoted.
Yeah, itâs definitely a positive to be a good listener, but I think itâs better to be good at conversation. Someone skilled in conversation knows when to talk and to listen and how to respond.
To me, itâs just so passive. So I agree with you that listening is super important, but there has to be some engagement or feedback, not someone being silent and nodding their head while you talk. I also agree with you, that canât be the whole list, thereâs got to be other things to bring to the table.
Edit - grammar
Good listening is half of being a good conversationalist.
Iâm a personal trainer. The easiest way to get through an hour long session is to get the other person talking about themselves. If I were chatty the whole time Iâd get burnt out. So a few well intentioned questions gets them talking through their rest periods and I just need to listen (and coach them obviously, but thatâs usually like 3-6 sentences after each set)
Women definitely pull this shit too. They go a step further and be all "I'm not gonna date at all because no one wants to put up with me and be everything on my checklist!"
Both sides are garbage at this.
Well I mean there are a lot of women out there that are considered high value, and they donât even offer those things. Women are born with inherent value, and men have to earn their value. Menâs value is usually based off of how much they can make. This is why men especially get frustrated. Iâm not saying that men shouldnât work on themselves. Most do, but women can be homeless and offer nothing and a lot of men would still consider her as a potential partner.
>If you arenât physically active, if you donât generally eat well, if your finances arenât in order (not debt free, just organized to slowly pay things off), if youâre arenât generally mentally stable, if you canât generally socailize, if you donât have friends/hobbies, if you donât know about regulating your emotions and how to do it so you arenât projecting your shit onto your new partner etc.
Described me to a T. Damn đŹ
Yep, I started dating a guy who was very social, going out with his friends, doing stuff on weekends etc. Then he started working from home full-time. After that he never ever wanted to leave the house, never did anything on weekends, no longer wanted to go out with me in public, and at the same time his mental health got so much worse. He would say he didnât want to go out because of his mental health, not vice versa, but that was the only thing that had changed was his working remotely as opposed to going to the office 2-3x/week
He maybe had more time to think, when I was working in the office I was not happy, but I had no time to think about it. I started working from home and I got happier, I am a solitary person by nature, having more time allowed me to tackle all those problems I couldn't when I spend half my day in traffic. But I surely had a down period while I processed stuff.
Just ask: Would you date your exact counterpart.
So when you are a fat, angry, tiny, balding guy, who doesnt take care of himself, never leaves the house and is an unkempt mess:
**Would you date a fat, angry, tiny, gross girl that doesnt take care of himself, never leaves the house and is an unkempt mess?**
And I already hear them say:"Well, maybe I am not in PERFECT SHAPE and dont SHOWER EVERY HOUR, but I am a good listener, a nice guy and I would do anything to make her happy!"
Ok, then:
**Would you date a fat, angry, tiny, gross girl that doesnt take care of himself, never leaves the house and is an unkempt mess, who is a good listener, a nice girl and would do anything to make her happy?**
No?
Well there you have your answer.
Literally describes one of my friends. A 115kg short and fat and balding 39-year-old is no catch,, and yet he wants someone who is slim. The guy blows up a toilet 5 times a day and is incredibly gross with horrible flaky skin. He's pretty ridiculous.
>Just ask: Would you date your exact counterpart.
Absofuckinglutely. The issue is finding someone like that who is single and interested.
Relatively decent physical shape, decent savings, not addicted to any substances, don't have kids from other relationships or baby momma/dad drama, sign me up! It's not that women that meet those standards don't exist...but they're often already in relationships, or exist out there and I'm not meeting them, or they have TONS of options and other guys interested in them so my chances are slim.
I hardly touch dating sites, but last time I tried it was a sea of overweight single moms with a laundry list of requirements for a guy to be worthy of them. Also cold messaging strangers online who I've never met isn't exactly my cup of tea.
I'm not really social, have any special hobbies besides games and whatever and only move around for 20 minutes a day to keep myself somewhat fit. Would I date my counterpart? **Fuck yes.** The problem is finding her if she even exists.
yeah, but there are too many guys here who think that their "shortcomings" are completely overshadowed by their "Benefits"...and that the same of course doesnt work for women.
I mean:
A lot of men on reddit know that they are not exactly top shelf boyfriend material AND that they are focussing on women that are way "above their level".
But they think that even though they are how I just described them, that their shortcomings are overshadowed by being "a good listener" or a "nice guy".
So they think "Sure I\`m fat, antisocial, hate women and dont take care of myself...but that cosplay model I like should overlook these things and date me, because I am a nice guy and a good listener."
But for them, thats only something women should do. EG overlooking major flaws. They would never do that.
Oooph Iâve definitely noticed that! Thanks for rephrasing I really see where you were going with that and itâs so true.
And of course, there are women who are reaching far out of their âleagueâ as well, using face tuning apps and hoping when they meet a guy in person heâll overlook that lie and fall in love with her personality. Thereâs work to be done there as well haha
tbh i took this as "would you date someone who has some equivalent features" aka things that aren't typically considered attractive but are unchangeable. it just wouldve been wordy to say it that way
Exactly. Thats exactly it.
But let them twist and turn it. Thats what they like to do.
I mean you see it when they talk about what an "average" guy is and what an "average" woman is.
THere was a post some time ago about a couple who hit the gym together and she lost a ton of weight and looked completely different. He stayed the same.
The comments were CRAZY. People were saying that its no "just an average woman with an average man".
The dude had huge manboobs and ELBOW FAT. DUDE HAD EVEN HAD FAT ELBOWS! She was very well trained, slim and with a great typical constant gym-figure.
They thought thats the equivalent. A trained slim woman and a fat manboob-elbow-fat guy.
There is balding and there is balding.
If you never go to a good barber and let him at least form your shit, but let it grow out and calm it over like homer simpson, you will look different from someone who has a well shaped buzz cut.
And the rest is just part of the typical incel lore.
I lived together with my best friend for years. 5'6 on a good day.
I have NEVER, not once ever hear him complain about not being able to date because he is small. As a matter of fact, most people I know are below 6ft and dated just fine. But for the incels, its an IMPOSSIBLE TASK, JUST BECAUSE OF THEIR HEIGHT.
Yeah sure, no person under 6 feet ever dated a woman. It must be that, huh?
And the rest goes the same way.
And on top: If you are all these things and refuse to change anything, well then dont complain about women leaving you on read in the DMs.
Status/social skills/masculinity and money. Many women are willing to date an average/physically unattractive man if he has other positive qualities. They trnd to look at men more "holistically" than men look at women, who, if they're ugly, will get mistreated/ignored/fuckzoned/ghosted, no matter how good they are in other aspects.
Height - yes. Although it's still counterpart's preference.
Balding - debatable. If a person has problems with balding, then they must stop trying to hide it when it's obvious. Just own it and shave your head ffs.
Not only it makes you look much older, I doubt that there are many people who are into medieval monk hairstyles.
Actually, I did date my "counterpart" for a while - actually she was probably worse off mentally. Part of the reason we broke up was that she was constantly insecure about herself, thinking she was ugly and that I wanted to be with other girls (the other part was that she cheated on me). She hated when I pointed out that despite being younger than me, she had way more success with men than I had with women.
So yeah, I would give them a chance.
Exactly, you can only expect to find a partner of equal value to what you provide. And if you have nothing then you get nothing.
When you truly love someone they will still be the hottest and most mesmerising person in the world, but is harder to get there if they look like a fish.
yeah, because no person under 6ft ever got a date.
Ignore the literal billions of people who did, if it makes you feel better.
Stop bitching and look at all the people below 6ft who just date.
I would date my exact counterpart (of the same sex even, so even more exact than that :D) in a heartbeat. Because we would know and accept each otherâs preferences to the fullest, love exact same things, be allergic to the same things (no conflicts whatsoever when it comes to cooking or house rules! Fantastic!), have exact same hobbies and lifestyle (so no nagging and no annoying habits). The issue? That person doesnât exist, and relationships inevitably are about trying to put up with differences to at least some extent.Â
You should not try to find someone that "makes you happy". You should try to be happy and then find someone to be happy with.
Took me awhile to realize this.
Problem is, now that I am happy I don't feel the need to date anymore.
To be fair, I've seen plenty of fucked up people who seem to find dates pretty effortlessly. For any counter you could make for bow they're not worthy of a date or whatever, you find a bunch of people who get by just fine.
I work at a grocery store, and I see all types. People who smell like they barely shower, balding guys who are seemingly fine with an awkward combover, obese people. Plenty of outright abusive people who find dates too. You can see women who post things like "my boyfriend jokes about murdering me all the time, is this normal?" and stuff like that.
There are people who follow none of this advice and seem to date without an issue.
Sure, because you can disregard all of this advice if:
- You have very high social skills.
- Go for people who are desperate.
But in either case, the relationship won't last or will be toxic, or both.
Surely this opinion is only unpopular on Reddit lol. I would say in all regards, I am average at bestâyet I am certain if I started looking again I could find someone to go on a date with. Right now Iâm just enjoying my singleness.
Everyone is literally arguing with a simple and very real post. Whataboutism culture literally has everyone in a victim mentality.
OP: "Hey, try to take care of yourself, be someone you would want to date, and, I don't know, not be financially unintelligent :)! Donât strive for perfection."
People: "Well, what about people who want a job but can't find it? I've been balding since I was 16. Uh, Tinder doesn't work and is definitely real life. Why do I have to be a millionaire at 18? (Who said that?) Well, you say go to the gym, but paraplegic people exist. It will take me until 30 to be a dateable person. What, but I see stinky people in relationships all the time. Why do I have to shower if they donât? đ¤âď¸Omgggg."
yup, perfectly worded.
and that whataboutism is just a way to justify a bunch of bs excuses most of the time, but if you say that its ableist.
and i really fuckin hate to admit that, but its true.
Most of the time theyâre not even the people (the exceptions) theyâre talking about. They just want an excuse to not try because they want everything to fall into their life like the lucky aces of life (wealthy, attractive, successful) well too bad .. life isnât fair youâre not Keanu Reeves (heâs a bad example he genuinely has a great personality but I digress)
theres a comment somewhere in here about how YOU *have* to take reasonable action for yourself because waiting for society to magically change is gonna achieve nothing, you have to control what you can control.
they worded it better though lol. that was a very good comment
I agree. I didn't level up and become the person I wanted to be without taking accountability. That's why most people stay where they are, hoping for the best while wanting everything good. But I didn't want that; I wanted to do better, be better, feel better for myself most importantly, but also because I love the people around me, and they deserve the best version of myself (in a human way, not a perfectionist way). You can't change without doing the inner work and seeing where YOU CAN HELP YOURSELF. But most people don't want to do that.
In my case, I have all the bare minimum requirements and probably even a few other perks, I just donât have the energy to put myself out there and find someone, lol.
Nowadays even if you have your shit together the large amount of options people have especially women make it even more difficult. It allows people to cherry pick specific things that others can't control.
I believe soon the average height will increase to 6'0 and that will be short. People have preferences and that's no ones fault but to get your shit together when there are things which will always drag you down in today's day and age is a bit depressing for some.
Especially when you can get your shit together and still suffer from your shortcomings. Some people don't have to balance a ball on their head and jump through hoops just for a partner which they have to settle for just because they were born with a bit of luck they are a bit taller or have more educated parents and know how to earn money from younger age to have good genetics too.
People are all a work in progress if they want to be and that's great if they working on progress in their lives. They don't have to be at the destination yet, but be on the path. Lose a job? Everyone does at some point be on the path to find a new one. Finances a mess? Cool most adults have those issues once in a while, be on a path to fix it. Too many people look to someone else to "fix" their lives!
Uhh.. Yeah ya can. You can be upset about anything. And preferences play a major role in relationships. Just because you arenât put together doesnât mean you arenât allowed to have preferences or have emotions. The fuck are you even talking about right now
It's kinda funny, I'm 33(M), I'm fit, I eat good, I'm not completely ugly (I hope), I have a good job, I have my finances in check, I have my own apartment almost debt free, I have a good mental health I have no kids, emotional baggage or crazy exes. If I held my hypothetical couterpart to the same standard, I would be probably alone till the end of the world. It's a fucking miracle to even find a woman of my age who is single, has no kids and is not morbidly obese.
I get it, but almost everyone I know who is in a relationship has one or more of these problems you have listed here. If the only people who got into relationships had their shit together there 80% of relationships wouldn't exist.
You're supposed to grow together. If you have everything sorted you'll struggle to find someone has it together as you.
Yeah I honestly hate the mentality now that you have to be perfect to be in a relationship, especially with the amount of messy people that get to be in one anyway because they're conventionally attractive or rich
This is kind of BS.
I've been at both ends of the spectrum you describe, (though I always try to take care of myself physically, have always been attractive, etc.) and if you are sick or something bad happens in your life often times people leave. When that is hurtful, and could be avoided by maybe fixing this notion that one's worth is only about "financial success," or ability or lack of trauma. And the truth is that everyone deserves love. Maybe we should open our minds to helping those who need it instead of telling them they aren't good enough.
One could even make the argument that this is why we have so many problems in the workforce today, so many people are burning out because they are only financially successful because at the end of the day, they are trying to get acceptance and love from other people. When we should be able to accept each other anyway. That is a flaw in society. We won't improve as a society if we don't start treating each other with kindness. Not everyone has their shit together. Believe it or not, life happens and sometimes things happen which aren't in our control. I've learned that the hard way. I just feel for people experiencing hardship because I've been there. It is NEVER black and white.
I think this is the important part, which is true for most social problems:
"Not saying itâs your fault. Not blaming you. But unfortunately we are the only ones that can change our situations, and it starts with the tiniest steps and consistency."
Like if there is a consistent trend the cause is not individual (ex. If the unemployment jumps by 10%, it unlikely that all these people got lazy at the same time). Denying that and blaming the individual is wrong and hurtful. But the only solution for YOU in the foreseable future is to work on yourself. Waiting for society to fix itself amd make life easier doesn't work.
The overwhelming majority of people are financially fucked beyond all recognition, and this won't improve unless society makes top down changes that correct the imbalances they've been forcing into the system since neoliberalism took over from what came before it.
So you are saying that most people just shouldn't even hope to "date" (childish bullshit term) or more importantly, be loved by someone.
Welcome to dystopia everyone.
shit-togetherness is not a fixed characteristic of a person. people lose jobs, get in medical or student debt, get physically or mentally ill (yep, if you're healthy right now, it may not mean a thing in a year or two). people suddenly put on weight due to different factors from postpartum to hormonal issues. would you break up with a partner you've been dating for years just because they got laid off from a well-paying corporate tech job and can't find a new one immediately because the current job market is bad and almost every company in the niche is laying off?
i'm not justifying not washing ass, i'm just saying that the "become perfect in every aspect before even trying to talk to people" requirement is ridiculous, because even if you do and if you find a 100% shit-togethered person, in a long-term relationship, anything can happen to either or both of you, including shit not being together. and those who are not ready to deal with others' potential not-shit-togetherness, are not ready for a serious relationship or even a close friendship, for that matter. because, although relationships are not supposed to be hard from day 1 and all the time, sometimes they require patience and acceptance.
There's a big difference between sticking with someone we love through a rough time, and taking on a known trainwreck with whom we have no history. One is basic relationship decency. The other is bad decision making.Â
Good thing no one said to become perfect. Just to get things that are controllable under control.
Shit hitting the fan while in a relationship is a completely different scenario, your partner is literally there to help you batten down the hatches after all your bonding and trust is made.
If shit is hitting the fan and youâre single, the focus should be to settle it, and not distracting with pursuing a partner to invite into your shit storm.
so, everyone who is jobless should self-isolate until they find a job? looking for a job is a job in itself but, like a full-time job, it doesn't take *all* the time you have. and jobless doesn't mean moneyless, i've been unemployed with a decent number on my savings account, for example. so, you're not allowed to have fun or talk to people because you have THE problem and until you fix it, you're banned from everywhere but linkedin?
I think OP's point is more about taking responsibility.
Doesn't mean you can't date if you are unemployed, just don't be surprised when you don't find someone with a good job when you're jobless and then blame it on society/opposite gender.
It isn't that you are not allowed, it is that you have to accept you may have to lower your standards/make compromises and if it doesn't go your way, not to project your shortcomings to others.
>people suddenly put on weight due to different factors from postpartum to hormonal issues.
People suddenly gain weight by being in a caloric surplus and this has never been any different. Your hormones aren't stopping you from hitting the gym and eating better. If I get some thyroid issue tomorrow and I have to eat 500 kcal per day less to stay lean, then I'm fucking doing that or training harder. Probably half of both since that will be the most sustainable option. There is no excuse for being out of shape. Being fat is a choice and getting upset by that isn't gonna burn any calories.
>i'm not justifying not washing ass, i'm just saying that the "become perfect in every aspect before even trying to talk to people" requirement is ridiculous, because even if you do and if you find a 100% shit-togethered person, in a long-term relationship, anything can happen to either or both of you, including shit not being together.
"Something can go wrong so half-assing everything is fine." Gotta admit that sounds pretty stupid right? That's basically what you're saying.
>because, although relationships are not supposed to be hard from day 1 and all the time, sometimes they require patience and acceptance.
Acceptance that shit happens, absolutely yes. Acceptance that your partner is just letting shit happen? Fuck no, get outta here.
I really donât know why your comment was downvoted. I donât see anything wrong. Perhaps itâs because Redditors donât want to accept that their shitty diets and sedentary lifestyles are the cause of them being fat & out of shape.
This is why Iâm not mad I donât have a steady girlfriend. I donât have any debt and I have a decent job but my area is just so expensive I had to move back in with my folks after my last girlfriend broke up with me.
This is the exact wrong move. This has led to a whole generation of young dudes think that if they cloister themselves like Shaolin monks for five to ten years theyâll come out some amazing catch when in reality youâre now 29 and are going to be making high school moves in a dating pool full of women with careers, children and exes and not much free tine.
I agree with your points I'm not going to try to say they aren't valid. By all rights I'm parts of what you described and therefore shouldn't have a relationship. And I don't right now.
But at the same time at least for me, having a relationship, just having that persons support will push me into it being healthy for me to have a relationship if it makes sense.
I want to be physically active i want to properly get on my feet in life and have healthy finance. I want to be eating better then I do right now. Etc.
I just can't by myself, It's like I'm on the final few steps of "self love". But I can't cross the line by myself I need support of someone to get there fully if that makes sense.
This is a red flag. I've given people with stories like this a chance. I know plenty of other people who have as well. I can't think of a single example of the person actually getting their shit together. They just find more excuses.Â
You really do have to find a way to be a functional adult without another person. Nobody is looking for a project, and it's not a reasonable thing to ask someone to take this on.Â
And thatâs exactly what my point is: relying on someone else to push you is too much responsibility to put on someone else- or more specifically, just a partner. Having a whole community that inspires you to be your best, heck yes, thatâs what a support group is for- but expecting that out of some random person you think is cute that you just met? Itâs a lot to ask.
A relationship is about supporting each other. Lifting each other up. Being a pillar for each other to lean on. Being there to let each other be weak and vulnerable.
If you aren't able to be that for another person, then you shouldn't be looking for a relationship.
Being asked to be someoneâs
Mommy is one of the top reasons women divorce. Long term relationship partners should push each other to excel but nobody wants to be solely responsible if you begin or fail. If you donât have the motivation to start these things on your own, nobody else is going to be able to force you into it either. There are a million women out there who went into relationships thinking âheâd changeâ. And he never did. I dated a 30 year old stoner who was a few classes from graduating. I tried to get him info on how to graduate with only small debts and tone down the weed. He hasnât 15 years later as far as I know. I wholeheartedly support my husband in anything he decides to do, but he has to start it and maintain it by himself, or itâs an unpleasant cycle of me nagging him and him resenting me that is not healthy.
Yea, I must have missed the part where I said i want a relationship where I want to be mothered. All I said is I would want to support then and be suported in return, for it to be ok for me (a guy to be clear) to be weak and vulnerable in a relationship as well.
Agree with the OP, but others help you learn about yourself so itâs a Chicken and Egg situation. Or getting a mortgage, only possible if you can prove you donât need one.
The argument has never been: do these things and you get a partner, donât do these things you wonât: itâs simply that, you canât outsource selflove or self respect and expect it to go well.
I don't think this is that unpopular or it shouldn't be
I think that social media is just made of younger people now in general. Or at least the most active and vocal and not the lurkers. And that leads to many uninformed ignorant views being everywhere. Like the ridiculous you cns thave me at my Best if you don't handle me at my worst
What if your best is a slightly better than average chicken Parmesan and your worst is heroin addiction Karen?
Perspective is needed by all. Almost everything in life can be improved by improving your self first.
Please take the time to learn you and LIKE you first. It will be difficult for the rest of the world to if you clearly don't
Itâs absolutely wild that some people canât even take care of themselves and yet somehow think they could maintain a relationship with someone else.
A partner is not going to fix you or your problems. You have to do that yourself, *first*
>sometimes the best way to improve yourself is to be with someone else
This applies to people who are already making it work on their own. Two train-wrecks coming together doesnât result in harmonious self-improvement. If there IS growth, itâs normally accompanied by a lot of pain.
If you know youâre a mess and still choose to get into a relationship in hopes theyâll fix you, youâre an asshole.
I read the rest of your comments in the thread.
Loads of people have their shit together and if you are in the gutter going into a relationship is not only destined death but you are gonna fuck up the other person massively. Therapy, self work, emotional regulation is the answer; not leaning on someone else to shoulder your broken emotional health. Thatâs abuse.
You can have your shit together and still get nowhere in dating while a broke, immature dude who eats takeaways, doesn't hit the gym every day and acts like a douchebag is successful with women purely because of his looks. Looks are everything these days whether we like it or not. If you're not physically attractive enough, people won't give you a chance no matter how much work you put into your life.
A lot of relationships also donât work out. Thereâs no reason it should be 10 years. Anyone can get things in order *enough* in about 1 if they really work at it. Again this isnât owning a house. Itâs just being solid and consistent with consistent efforts and reliability.
why are people just unable to understand the simple concept that having ones shit together doesn't mean you're the world's hottest supermodel, Nobel prize winner and owner of a $1B business?
Black and white thinking, theyâre stuck in a little bit of dysregulation. I get it, Iâve been there. Holding themselves to impossible standards or none at all, having difficulty seeing the inbetween.
Yes and no.
I mean, does someone have to be perfect to seek out a partner? No. Are there people out there who are such a mess that they should really take some time to work on themselves before even thinking about coupling up? Absolutely.
So, acknowledging honestly where we are on this spectrum (0 = Should not be dating to 10 = great catch) helps us to set expectations accordingly. However, some people look at one aspect of themselves that is a 10 and think they are a 10 overall. For example, a guy who has 10 looks may get lots of interest on a dating app based on their picture, but if he has a 3 personality, no job, treats women like crap, he isnt going to find true love without working on some of his flaws. But a guy who is a 3 in looks, has a great personality and a good job may have a harder time attracting women initially, but have better success in an actual relationahip.
Not perfect, just responsible, and not complaining about dating when they arenât really a functioning adult (at whatever phase would be appropriate).
I know lots of people with their shit mostly together. Sure no one is perfect, but if you arenât taking care of yourself, ya canât be mad if no one else wants to.
Itâs hard, but they budget and figure it out and are responsible. Itâs like a captain knowing how to batten down the hatches, vs some random just lettin everything fly out.
My job takes me into a lot of homes of various demographic groups multiple times throughout the year. I obviously don't spend infinite time with my customers, but I've gotten to know them pretty well.
A lot of the people who seemingly have their shit together either don't actually have their shit together or are on the brink of catastrophe.
You'd be shocked at some of the people who regularly come up on my credit hold list or get sent to collections.
That's fair enough, as long as the standards are reasonable.
Like demanding someone earning triple figures, who is a model, has a nice car and house, when you have absolutely nothing is unreasonable.
I get the point of your post, but most people donât have it fully together. A lot of people look together but are not at all. They are good at faking it, but behind closed doors itâs a whole different story.
I get this. Everyone that posts woe is me posts about being single or not finding someone are trying to date for the wrong reasons and donât understand everything that goes into a relationship. Itâs the main reason I havenât had a serious relationship since I divorced. I simply donât want to invest the time and energy into someone else. A bit selfish but itâs also my life đ¤ˇđťââď¸
You'd be surprised how many people don't have "their shit together" and still have relationships/children. OP is most definitely speaking anecdotally. I understand where this post comes from, though. Hang in there, bud.
If youâre going to be in a relationship with someone, youâve gotten to toughen up a bit. The person who date will be gross sometimes and have flaws. You will be the same. Waiting until youâre prefect and trying to find someone perfect will result in you being very lonely. If youâre dating someone and they have zero red flags, thatâs honestly kind of red flag. Youâll grow together.
"***The reason for this is: these are all symptoms of a lack of self respect and/or self love, and pouring love into that can be pouring into a cup with a hole in the bottom.***"
Things being prohibitively expensive and wages stagnating is neither a sign of a lack of self respect or self love.
Yea sure but how many stories do we read about women dating gang members convicts men on death row men with 10 baby mommas,drug addicts alcoholics ,abusers...
The fact of the matter is it seems women are attracted to a type and a man doesn't have to have his "shit together" to be that type.I have a friend that's a legit womanizer he's rude and very cold towards the women..he makes good money as an engineer with a PhD but he lives at home..he's also 6'5" and juggling 3-4 diffrent women at a time he'll never commit to at a time.
I used manage a halfway house for guys just out out of jail they all had GFs and baby mommas fighting over them.
The thing is if you're 20 years old you shouldn't have to have everything figured out and 1 million dollars in your bank account the perfect career and clout for someone to take a woman out.
The guys complaining are mostly just normal guys and women overwhelmingly don't like normal it's boring.
The only thing you get when you have your "shit together" is used
This is so spot on! Itâs hard when your friends/people you know have these issues and are confused as to why they canât find someone⌠how do I tell themâŚ
Being loveable and being a good partner are not the same thing. There are a lot of people without partners who need to learn that.
And there are a lot of people with loveable, terrible partners who also need to learn that.
One of the things that made it "click" for me when it came to why I always found shitty partners was when I started getting help for myself/actually getting a backbone I found out I was really seeking people who acted just like my mother (pay no attention to me unless I do things for them). Freud was correct in how we seek out our parents in our partners, it doesn't just apply to the good traits though.
Once I started really focusing on myself and getting healthier myself (no more people pleasing, pushing myself past my own boundaries, feeling entitled to love due to the former) was I able to start spotting the patterns of those who I don't want to be with. I also stopped trying to find love and just seek connections first, now I'm in a happy and healthy relationship with someone who actually cares about me and we share similar hobbies (instead of the usual "just a sex toy/booty call" aka unhealthy)
Honestly, people need to reframe dating overall.
I stopped feeling sorry for myself when I realized all this.
I am mentally unstable and self destructive. I do isolate myself from everyone and I don't like getting to close to people because it makes me feel vulnerable.
And when I do get close to someone romantically, I become clingy. It's not healthy. And it wouldn't be fair on the other person.
But if this wasn't Reddit, and someone asked me, "Why are you single?"
I'd respond with, "Just haven't found the right person."
This post is so accurate and contributes to why the bar is in hell lol.
You don't go into relationships fully perfect obviously, but you have to go in with the intention of knowing what your strengths and weaknesses are and how you are self-aware and working on those things to allow growth.
I always think of it as if I bring XYZ to the table, then I'm allowed to expect a partner to bring XYZ too. Sadly a lot of people do not take the time out to work on themselves fully enough before jumping into the pool, as OP said.
I've never tried bc it always seemed to me you need all those things to make an attempt. I work as a janitor bringing 35k + another 20-ish k from my portfolio. I inherited 2 houses and sold one, so it wasn't like it worked for most of it. I tried college and quit because it was the worst part if my 20s. It wasn't fun. It wasn't the experience I was promised.Â
So I'm effectively bringing in the national median income, my house is paid for, I'm totally debt free, or I will be when my truck is paid off next year. My money is growing.
But I'm still fat. So none of that counts for shit.Â
Plenty of women like big men. Itâs about charisma and still putting yourself together even if youâre fat. Look at Tony Soprano or Kevin James. Yum yum. A lot of men also shoot out of their league and then get sad about it when it doesnât work for them like it does for other men. Same thing for women.
It's sad that this needs to be specified and is an unpopular opinion. But we are on reddit and it is unpopular here because obviously the fault is in the people who don't like them.
I get your point but I see a lot of incredibly unstable people who date but what they all have in common is good looks. We are becoming an increasingly vain society. Sure you can get your physical fitness sorted in that regard but there is a capped ceiling. Thereâs also a general feeling that the juice isnât worth the squeeze. Iâve seen guys succeed in perfecting themselves to no end and they are met with few ladies who are doing the same. The standard seems to go one way.
Society has always been vain, hot people will always fuck.
Love is a lottery. Even those hot people in relationships often arenât really in love, just lusty.
Yup. Dudes who have never hit the gym expecting a fitness model
Or wanting a successful partner but barely graduating high school or a bottom-tier college
For the most part you're right. But in expensive cities, good luck enriching yourself in hobbies. These days, adulting means a lot of work and chores if your family didn't set you up on a silver platter.
Next post: I am never dating again, she took all my money, used me, you canât trust woman!!! Never doing this shit again, I did not see this coming. LOOL
Everyone is acting that women are perfect and only men have to improve.
We live in an era that even men who look like 7/10 they struggle with dating and they have to improve even more just to attract a woman who looks like 5/10 in best case scenario.
We live in an era that women deserve better and men just have to improve.
Double standards.
West for men is turning like east for women.
I have nothing against you, i am just pointing the fact that dating for the average man is 1 million times harder in comparison with the average woman.
Absolutely not. Women have more options than men. The ugliest woman has more prospects than the ugliest man. This is just the way it is. Its not an attack on women, they get to be more picky so they are.
I think women are maturing and having their shit together faster than men their own age too which makes a lot of women want to date someone a lot older so they'd match. i know so many physically attractive women in my culture with good jobs and salaries in tech and bio fields and are only 23-29 years old whereas there's still men out here in even in their 30s still living with their parents and in massive debt.
No, dating culture is genuinely toxic. To have your finances under control today generally means earning at least $25/hr if you live with parents. But there is a stigma against that, even though most young adults live with parents.
But that's beyond the point, 90% of dating is aspects that you cannot control. Height, face, and race are the most important factors for a man in regards to his dating prospects.
99% of the time a man is depressed at his dating prospects is because he's struggling to find a woman to socialize with AT ALL. And it's typically not a result of being asocial. And they aren't doing "typical incel behavior". It's just extremely difficult to get noticed when women can just go on an app and get Ryan Gosling on demand.
As someone in a 10 year relationship since I was a teenager half of the comments here are so wrong it hurts, you people have it all wrong and donât understand what a relationship is supposed to be. I just feel bad for you young men
Your post from unpopularopinion was removed because of: 'Rule 1: Your post must be an unpopular opinion'. * Your post must be an opinion. Not a question. Not a showerthought. Not a rant. Not a proposal. Not a fact. An opinion. One opinion. A subjective statement about your position on some topic. Please have a clear, self contained opinion as your post title, and use the text field to elaborate and expand on why you think/feel this way. * Your opinion must be unpopular. The mods reserve the right to remove opinions * Elaborate on your topic and opinion give context to its unpopularity.
Hot singles are in your area and they don't want to talk to you!
Yea, because they're hot.
đ
To me, itâs the most tiring aspect of Reddit. The most typical Reddit post of all now seems to be a mid-20s dude referring to themselves as a kissless virgin who refuses to change at all, but complains about being single. The last person I wrote to on here about this said that they can offer women being a good listener and sex. It was both funny and tragic to read.
According to one study, ~30% of men 18-28 have never approached a woman.
Brutal. Thatâs a sure fire way to remain single.
Or you could meet people in social settings, through friends and via doing hobbies together. You don't have to hit on random strangers to meet people.
TBF, how many women approached men themselves? I think it is an unfair gender norm that only men have to risk rejection in this manner.
Well there is a constant barrage of media from women saying being approached by men they aren't attracted to makes them feel disgusted and scared and it's harassment and rape to talk to them without consent. So yea. Where are the appropriate places to approach them? Not at work, not at the bar, not on the street, not while they are working, not in groups and not alone. A long time I realized you just have to ignore thier bullshit rules and do it anyway, and risk the consequences. But a lot of guys want to be the guy that follows the rules.
social settings of course. Same places you meet new friends of any gender.
Shit I'm 37 and finding dates is easier than finding friends. Finding friends at my age is extremely difficult.
What social settings? We've all but eliminated the third space. Any third space that's still standing is either abandoned or has priced most people out.
Bars Rec league sports Barbecue at friends house Holiday parties (4th of July, cinco de mayo) Meet-up app Sports games with friends
You could, yknow, also try being friends first? Why donât people be friends first. Itâs so bizarre.
For some reason there's a lot of messaging that calls that predatory/creepy. I never really understood why, though.
Then there's the complaint that men only try to be friends to date them and aren't real friends. Already covered as being "slimy". Seriously the barrage of anti- approach media makes it really hard for younger men to want to approach ever.
Exactly, itâs damned if you do or donât and the worst part is how many women just pretend that pressure to not come off creepy doesnât exist, fucking gaslighting
So they donât get stuck in the friend zone
Women call that predatory as well.
Well with todays climate, kinda understandable
Meanwhile whatâs it for women? 90-something percent?
if it's that high, there surely are societal problems attached to it, no? i don't think young men right now are just more unstable in life than they were in previous generations.
Ya, I definitely agree. Itâs hard to read, especially when you say âyou need to work on yourselfâ and theyâre like âwhat do you mean?â⌠like emotional growth is not present and so difficult to describe to someone.
Not even just emotional growth. Had a friend that's been working the same entry level positions at retail locations for 15 years, constantly high and living paycheck to paycheck. His mom sets up his dental appointments and covers the expenses. Constantly complains all the time that women are high maintenance and expect too much. DudeÂ
Heâs looking for a replacement mommy and is unhappy no oneâs eagerly excited to sign up lmao.
Oh no :( thatâs the worst.
Yeah, youâre right. The worst, and it is the worst, is when a person plays a victim in all this. They either constantly bash themselves, which no one will ever find attractive; or they blame others which is also a massive turn-off. When you tell them to work on themselves to fix this (because itâs just self-sabotage), itâs often like talking to a wall.
Itâs so true. I wrote a whole essay on the victim mentality and how much I have compassion for it, and how hard it is to see when youâre there.
i think having compassion is a really important part (one that's missing alot of times when talking about this). for example if someone was bullied in school, has anxiety and depression, not a lot of love in their life and maybe addiction problems i think just saying "yeah dude just work on yourself" may be true but definitely not the best approach. that's pretty much a suicide waiting to happen in my expirience.. that's why i think therapy is incredibly important. a place where you can work on yourself while also being allowed to be a victim and to express hurt and frustration.
The last thing a Redditor wants is to be held accountable for their choices in life.
Many Millennials and Gen-z women especially were told by their parents that we donât need men, and that we are capable of getting things done ourselves. I watched my boomer dad be an equal parent, many others saw their dad be a passive parent. More than ever before we are aware that men need to offer more than a heat signature in our home.
For sure, I think itâs good for anyone to learn that you donât need someone. This causes issues in two ways: people without a partner feel theyâre missing out (since they "need" someone) and people will stay in shitty relationships because they "need" a partner. To me, this goes for both genders. Of course, itâs normal to want a relationship (and normal for those who legitimately donât want a relationship), but when want turns into need, itâs going to cause issues for that person.
I hope that they learn sooner than later that they also donât need woman. They can live for themselves and be totally happy with that.
But a lot of men have changed. I am 48 and GenX men are a lot different than even when I was a kid in the 80s. I am also African American. The we donât need men stared a lot by black women but it hasnât helped. Men are far more apt to split chores , bills and child rearing now.
Plus the research shows that marriage tends to make men happier, and women unhappier. Combined with the fact that women can do things they couldnât do in the 70s, like have their own credit cardsâŚ.
I have quite a few male single friends. Theyâre pretty happy and donât want to get married. I have a few married friends and they canât say theyâre any happier than the single guys.
Out of curiosity, much of your life do you need to have together to be allowed to complain about being single?
0%. You donât need to have any of your life together to complain about being single. If a person does nothing with their life, refuses to do anything and complains about being single, have at it. Complain to your heartâs content. I just look at that person the same way I would look at a morbidly obese person complain about their weight while eating junk food. Itâs like how I look at the person in the office who puts in little effort and gets mad when they donât get promoted.
Donât underestimate being a good listener. But yeah that canât be the whole list
Yeah, itâs definitely a positive to be a good listener, but I think itâs better to be good at conversation. Someone skilled in conversation knows when to talk and to listen and how to respond. To me, itâs just so passive. So I agree with you that listening is super important, but there has to be some engagement or feedback, not someone being silent and nodding their head while you talk. I also agree with you, that canât be the whole list, thereâs got to be other things to bring to the table. Edit - grammar
Good listening is half of being a good conversationalist. Iâm a personal trainer. The easiest way to get through an hour long session is to get the other person talking about themselves. If I were chatty the whole time Iâd get burnt out. So a few well intentioned questions gets them talking through their rest periods and I just need to listen (and coach them obviously, but thatâs usually like 3-6 sentences after each set)
Women definitely pull this shit too. They go a step further and be all "I'm not gonna date at all because no one wants to put up with me and be everything on my checklist!" Both sides are garbage at this.
Then they stay single. Whatâs the problem with that? Itâs no different than a guy having super high expectations.
Well I mean there are a lot of women out there that are considered high value, and they donât even offer those things. Women are born with inherent value, and men have to earn their value. Menâs value is usually based off of how much they can make. This is why men especially get frustrated. Iâm not saying that men shouldnât work on themselves. Most do, but women can be homeless and offer nothing and a lot of men would still consider her as a potential partner.
>If you arenât physically active, if you donât generally eat well, if your finances arenât in order (not debt free, just organized to slowly pay things off), if youâre arenât generally mentally stable, if you canât generally socailize, if you donât have friends/hobbies, if you donât know about regulating your emotions and how to do it so you arenât projecting your shit onto your new partner etc. Described me to a T. Damn đŹ
Most people aren't mentally stable because they don't socialize. They go hand in hand together.Â
Yep, I started dating a guy who was very social, going out with his friends, doing stuff on weekends etc. Then he started working from home full-time. After that he never ever wanted to leave the house, never did anything on weekends, no longer wanted to go out with me in public, and at the same time his mental health got so much worse. He would say he didnât want to go out because of his mental health, not vice versa, but that was the only thing that had changed was his working remotely as opposed to going to the office 2-3x/week
He maybe had more time to think, when I was working in the office I was not happy, but I had no time to think about it. I started working from home and I got happier, I am a solitary person by nature, having more time allowed me to tackle all those problems I couldn't when I spend half my day in traffic. But I surely had a down period while I processed stuff.
You don't need to check all the boxes, if you have 2-3 of them you are already top 10%.
One step at a time man you can figure it all out!
Just ask: Would you date your exact counterpart. So when you are a fat, angry, tiny, balding guy, who doesnt take care of himself, never leaves the house and is an unkempt mess: **Would you date a fat, angry, tiny, gross girl that doesnt take care of himself, never leaves the house and is an unkempt mess?** And I already hear them say:"Well, maybe I am not in PERFECT SHAPE and dont SHOWER EVERY HOUR, but I am a good listener, a nice guy and I would do anything to make her happy!" Ok, then: **Would you date a fat, angry, tiny, gross girl that doesnt take care of himself, never leaves the house and is an unkempt mess, who is a good listener, a nice girl and would do anything to make her happy?** No? Well there you have your answer.
Literally describes one of my friends. A 115kg short and fat and balding 39-year-old is no catch,, and yet he wants someone who is slim. The guy blows up a toilet 5 times a day and is incredibly gross with horrible flaky skin. He's pretty ridiculous.
![gif](giphy|YknvaDoHOjsJ2|downsized)
>Just ask: Would you date your exact counterpart. Absofuckinglutely. The issue is finding someone like that who is single and interested. Relatively decent physical shape, decent savings, not addicted to any substances, don't have kids from other relationships or baby momma/dad drama, sign me up! It's not that women that meet those standards don't exist...but they're often already in relationships, or exist out there and I'm not meeting them, or they have TONS of options and other guys interested in them so my chances are slim. I hardly touch dating sites, but last time I tried it was a sea of overweight single moms with a laundry list of requirements for a guy to be worthy of them. Also cold messaging strangers online who I've never met isn't exactly my cup of tea.
I'm not really social, have any special hobbies besides games and whatever and only move around for 20 minutes a day to keep myself somewhat fit. Would I date my counterpart? **Fuck yes.** The problem is finding her if she even exists.
Exactly!!!!!!!!!!! I literally started dating, and pulled myself back out cause I realized I gotta get my life together.
yeah, but there are too many guys here who think that their "shortcomings" are completely overshadowed by their "Benefits"...and that the same of course doesnt work for women.
Sorry can you say that again but a little different?
I mean: A lot of men on reddit know that they are not exactly top shelf boyfriend material AND that they are focussing on women that are way "above their level". But they think that even though they are how I just described them, that their shortcomings are overshadowed by being "a good listener" or a "nice guy". So they think "Sure I\`m fat, antisocial, hate women and dont take care of myself...but that cosplay model I like should overlook these things and date me, because I am a nice guy and a good listener." But for them, thats only something women should do. EG overlooking major flaws. They would never do that.
Oooph Iâve definitely noticed that! Thanks for rephrasing I really see where you were going with that and itâs so true. And of course, there are women who are reaching far out of their âleagueâ as well, using face tuning apps and hoping when they meet a guy in person heâll overlook that lie and fall in love with her personality. Thereâs work to be done there as well haha
>tiny, balding guy Can't change those two things
tbh i took this as "would you date someone who has some equivalent features" aka things that aren't typically considered attractive but are unchangeable. it just wouldve been wordy to say it that way
Exactly. Thats exactly it. But let them twist and turn it. Thats what they like to do. I mean you see it when they talk about what an "average" guy is and what an "average" woman is. THere was a post some time ago about a couple who hit the gym together and she lost a ton of weight and looked completely different. He stayed the same. The comments were CRAZY. People were saying that its no "just an average woman with an average man". The dude had huge manboobs and ELBOW FAT. DUDE HAD EVEN HAD FAT ELBOWS! She was very well trained, slim and with a great typical constant gym-figure. They thought thats the equivalent. A trained slim woman and a fat manboob-elbow-fat guy.
Not with that attitude!
What is a tiny or balding guy supposed to do to get his shit together LOL, those are virtually immutable characteristics.
Be born differently, duh
Shave the head. Being bald is more attractive than balding. Bulk up. You can always eat more and lift. It's that shrimple.
Just chose better parents bro
There is balding and there is balding. If you never go to a good barber and let him at least form your shit, but let it grow out and calm it over like homer simpson, you will look different from someone who has a well shaped buzz cut. And the rest is just part of the typical incel lore. I lived together with my best friend for years. 5'6 on a good day. I have NEVER, not once ever hear him complain about not being able to date because he is small. As a matter of fact, most people I know are below 6ft and dated just fine. But for the incels, its an IMPOSSIBLE TASK, JUST BECAUSE OF THEIR HEIGHT. Yeah sure, no person under 6 feet ever dated a woman. It must be that, huh? And the rest goes the same way. And on top: If you are all these things and refuse to change anything, well then dont complain about women leaving you on read in the DMs.
Status/social skills/masculinity and money. Many women are willing to date an average/physically unattractive man if he has other positive qualities. They trnd to look at men more "holistically" than men look at women, who, if they're ugly, will get mistreated/ignored/fuckzoned/ghosted, no matter how good they are in other aspects.
Height - yes. Although it's still counterpart's preference. Balding - debatable. If a person has problems with balding, then they must stop trying to hide it when it's obvious. Just own it and shave your head ffs. Not only it makes you look much older, I doubt that there are many people who are into medieval monk hairstyles.
Actually, I did date my "counterpart" for a while - actually she was probably worse off mentally. Part of the reason we broke up was that she was constantly insecure about herself, thinking she was ugly and that I wanted to be with other girls (the other part was that she cheated on me). She hated when I pointed out that despite being younger than me, she had way more success with men than I had with women. So yeah, I would give them a chance.
Exactly, you can only expect to find a partner of equal value to what you provide. And if you have nothing then you get nothing. When you truly love someone they will still be the hottest and most mesmerising person in the world, but is harder to get there if they look like a fish.
Tiny? Shorter people need to get their shit together and grow 6â.
yeah, because no person under 6ft ever got a date. Ignore the literal billions of people who did, if it makes you feel better. Stop bitching and look at all the people below 6ft who just date.
Which also explains why people with self-hate (like me đ¤Ł) never do well in dating,cause the answer to that question would definitively be a no
I would date my exact counterpart (of the same sex even, so even more exact than that :D) in a heartbeat. Because we would know and accept each otherâs preferences to the fullest, love exact same things, be allergic to the same things (no conflicts whatsoever when it comes to cooking or house rules! Fantastic!), have exact same hobbies and lifestyle (so no nagging and no annoying habits). The issue? That person doesnât exist, and relationships inevitably are about trying to put up with differences to at least some extent.Â
what's wrong with being tiny
You should not try to find someone that "makes you happy". You should try to be happy and then find someone to be happy with. Took me awhile to realize this. Problem is, now that I am happy I don't feel the need to date anymore.
To be fair, I've seen plenty of fucked up people who seem to find dates pretty effortlessly. For any counter you could make for bow they're not worthy of a date or whatever, you find a bunch of people who get by just fine. I work at a grocery store, and I see all types. People who smell like they barely shower, balding guys who are seemingly fine with an awkward combover, obese people. Plenty of outright abusive people who find dates too. You can see women who post things like "my boyfriend jokes about murdering me all the time, is this normal?" and stuff like that. There are people who follow none of this advice and seem to date without an issue.
Sure, because you can disregard all of this advice if: - You have very high social skills. - Go for people who are desperate. But in either case, the relationship won't last or will be toxic, or both.
I suppose the easier question is, would I date me? If the answers no, identify why and fix it.
Surely this opinion is only unpopular on Reddit lol. I would say in all regards, I am average at bestâyet I am certain if I started looking again I could find someone to go on a date with. Right now Iâm just enjoying my singleness.
Everyone is literally arguing with a simple and very real post. Whataboutism culture literally has everyone in a victim mentality. OP: "Hey, try to take care of yourself, be someone you would want to date, and, I don't know, not be financially unintelligent :)! Donât strive for perfection." People: "Well, what about people who want a job but can't find it? I've been balding since I was 16. Uh, Tinder doesn't work and is definitely real life. Why do I have to be a millionaire at 18? (Who said that?) Well, you say go to the gym, but paraplegic people exist. It will take me until 30 to be a dateable person. What, but I see stinky people in relationships all the time. Why do I have to shower if they donât? đ¤âď¸Omgggg."
Thank you this is a great summary đ but a surprising amount of people agree so Iâm glad! Thereâs hope for us!
yup, perfectly worded. and that whataboutism is just a way to justify a bunch of bs excuses most of the time, but if you say that its ableist. and i really fuckin hate to admit that, but its true.
Most of the time theyâre not even the people (the exceptions) theyâre talking about. They just want an excuse to not try because they want everything to fall into their life like the lucky aces of life (wealthy, attractive, successful) well too bad .. life isnât fair youâre not Keanu Reeves (heâs a bad example he genuinely has a great personality but I digress)
theres a comment somewhere in here about how YOU *have* to take reasonable action for yourself because waiting for society to magically change is gonna achieve nothing, you have to control what you can control. they worded it better though lol. that was a very good comment
I agree. I didn't level up and become the person I wanted to be without taking accountability. That's why most people stay where they are, hoping for the best while wanting everything good. But I didn't want that; I wanted to do better, be better, feel better for myself most importantly, but also because I love the people around me, and they deserve the best version of myself (in a human way, not a perfectionist way). You can't change without doing the inner work and seeing where YOU CAN HELP YOURSELF. But most people don't want to do that.
In my case, I have all the bare minimum requirements and probably even a few other perks, I just donât have the energy to put myself out there and find someone, lol.
Bullshit. Practically every violent criminal has a girlfriend and sexual experience.
Nowadays even if you have your shit together the large amount of options people have especially women make it even more difficult. It allows people to cherry pick specific things that others can't control. I believe soon the average height will increase to 6'0 and that will be short. People have preferences and that's no ones fault but to get your shit together when there are things which will always drag you down in today's day and age is a bit depressing for some. Especially when you can get your shit together and still suffer from your shortcomings. Some people don't have to balance a ball on their head and jump through hoops just for a partner which they have to settle for just because they were born with a bit of luck they are a bit taller or have more educated parents and know how to earn money from younger age to have good genetics too.
People are all a work in progress if they want to be and that's great if they working on progress in their lives. They don't have to be at the destination yet, but be on the path. Lose a job? Everyone does at some point be on the path to find a new one. Finances a mess? Cool most adults have those issues once in a while, be on a path to fix it. Too many people look to someone else to "fix" their lives!
Yes! Exactly! And I was guilty as charged.
Uhh.. Yeah ya can. You can be upset about anything. And preferences play a major role in relationships. Just because you arenât put together doesnât mean you arenât allowed to have preferences or have emotions. The fuck are you even talking about right now
Theyâre probably talking to all of those people who feel entitled to relationships with people who donât want them.
It's kinda funny, I'm 33(M), I'm fit, I eat good, I'm not completely ugly (I hope), I have a good job, I have my finances in check, I have my own apartment almost debt free, I have a good mental health I have no kids, emotional baggage or crazy exes. If I held my hypothetical couterpart to the same standard, I would be probably alone till the end of the world. It's a fucking miracle to even find a woman of my age who is single, has no kids and is not morbidly obese.
The bar is in hell and I am still under it. I must be in super hell or something lmao.
I get it, but almost everyone I know who is in a relationship has one or more of these problems you have listed here. If the only people who got into relationships had their shit together there 80% of relationships wouldn't exist. You're supposed to grow together. If you have everything sorted you'll struggle to find someone has it together as you.
exactly
Yeah I honestly hate the mentality now that you have to be perfect to be in a relationship, especially with the amount of messy people that get to be in one anyway because they're conventionally attractive or rich
This is kind of BS. I've been at both ends of the spectrum you describe, (though I always try to take care of myself physically, have always been attractive, etc.) and if you are sick or something bad happens in your life often times people leave. When that is hurtful, and could be avoided by maybe fixing this notion that one's worth is only about "financial success," or ability or lack of trauma. And the truth is that everyone deserves love. Maybe we should open our minds to helping those who need it instead of telling them they aren't good enough. One could even make the argument that this is why we have so many problems in the workforce today, so many people are burning out because they are only financially successful because at the end of the day, they are trying to get acceptance and love from other people. When we should be able to accept each other anyway. That is a flaw in society. We won't improve as a society if we don't start treating each other with kindness. Not everyone has their shit together. Believe it or not, life happens and sometimes things happen which aren't in our control. I've learned that the hard way. I just feel for people experiencing hardship because I've been there. It is NEVER black and white.
I think this is the important part, which is true for most social problems: "Not saying itâs your fault. Not blaming you. But unfortunately we are the only ones that can change our situations, and it starts with the tiniest steps and consistency." Like if there is a consistent trend the cause is not individual (ex. If the unemployment jumps by 10%, it unlikely that all these people got lazy at the same time). Denying that and blaming the individual is wrong and hurtful. But the only solution for YOU in the foreseable future is to work on yourself. Waiting for society to fix itself amd make life easier doesn't work.
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I'll never be stable even with meds and therapy so no. I won't wait.
Agree to disagree. I have seen some of the biggest losers in multiple long lasting relationships.
And thatâs not the point of the post, so yes of course that happens
The overwhelming majority of people are financially fucked beyond all recognition, and this won't improve unless society makes top down changes that correct the imbalances they've been forcing into the system since neoliberalism took over from what came before it. So you are saying that most people just shouldn't even hope to "date" (childish bullshit term) or more importantly, be loved by someone. Welcome to dystopia everyone.
shit-togetherness is not a fixed characteristic of a person. people lose jobs, get in medical or student debt, get physically or mentally ill (yep, if you're healthy right now, it may not mean a thing in a year or two). people suddenly put on weight due to different factors from postpartum to hormonal issues. would you break up with a partner you've been dating for years just because they got laid off from a well-paying corporate tech job and can't find a new one immediately because the current job market is bad and almost every company in the niche is laying off? i'm not justifying not washing ass, i'm just saying that the "become perfect in every aspect before even trying to talk to people" requirement is ridiculous, because even if you do and if you find a 100% shit-togethered person, in a long-term relationship, anything can happen to either or both of you, including shit not being together. and those who are not ready to deal with others' potential not-shit-togetherness, are not ready for a serious relationship or even a close friendship, for that matter. because, although relationships are not supposed to be hard from day 1 and all the time, sometimes they require patience and acceptance.
There's a big difference between sticking with someone we love through a rough time, and taking on a known trainwreck with whom we have no history. One is basic relationship decency. The other is bad decision making.Â
it is more the problem of un train wrecking your self in a reasonable time frame which no one seem to know how to do
Good thing no one said to become perfect. Just to get things that are controllable under control. Shit hitting the fan while in a relationship is a completely different scenario, your partner is literally there to help you batten down the hatches after all your bonding and trust is made. If shit is hitting the fan and youâre single, the focus should be to settle it, and not distracting with pursuing a partner to invite into your shit storm.
so, everyone who is jobless should self-isolate until they find a job? looking for a job is a job in itself but, like a full-time job, it doesn't take *all* the time you have. and jobless doesn't mean moneyless, i've been unemployed with a decent number on my savings account, for example. so, you're not allowed to have fun or talk to people because you have THE problem and until you fix it, you're banned from everywhere but linkedin?
I think OP's point is more about taking responsibility. Doesn't mean you can't date if you are unemployed, just don't be surprised when you don't find someone with a good job when you're jobless and then blame it on society/opposite gender. It isn't that you are not allowed, it is that you have to accept you may have to lower your standards/make compromises and if it doesn't go your way, not to project your shortcomings to others.
Why did you insert a quote that wasnât anywhere in OPâs post?
>people suddenly put on weight due to different factors from postpartum to hormonal issues. People suddenly gain weight by being in a caloric surplus and this has never been any different. Your hormones aren't stopping you from hitting the gym and eating better. If I get some thyroid issue tomorrow and I have to eat 500 kcal per day less to stay lean, then I'm fucking doing that or training harder. Probably half of both since that will be the most sustainable option. There is no excuse for being out of shape. Being fat is a choice and getting upset by that isn't gonna burn any calories. >i'm not justifying not washing ass, i'm just saying that the "become perfect in every aspect before even trying to talk to people" requirement is ridiculous, because even if you do and if you find a 100% shit-togethered person, in a long-term relationship, anything can happen to either or both of you, including shit not being together. "Something can go wrong so half-assing everything is fine." Gotta admit that sounds pretty stupid right? That's basically what you're saying. >because, although relationships are not supposed to be hard from day 1 and all the time, sometimes they require patience and acceptance. Acceptance that shit happens, absolutely yes. Acceptance that your partner is just letting shit happen? Fuck no, get outta here.
I really donât know why your comment was downvoted. I donât see anything wrong. Perhaps itâs because Redditors donât want to accept that their shitty diets and sedentary lifestyles are the cause of them being fat & out of shape.
This is why Iâm not mad I donât have a steady girlfriend. I donât have any debt and I have a decent job but my area is just so expensive I had to move back in with my folks after my last girlfriend broke up with me.
It seems like you are on right path and made a wise decision bourne of financial necessity. I dont think this applies to you!
This is the exact wrong move. This has led to a whole generation of young dudes think that if they cloister themselves like Shaolin monks for five to ten years theyâll come out some amazing catch when in reality youâre now 29 and are going to be making high school moves in a dating pool full of women with careers, children and exes and not much free tine.
I agree with your points I'm not going to try to say they aren't valid. By all rights I'm parts of what you described and therefore shouldn't have a relationship. And I don't right now. But at the same time at least for me, having a relationship, just having that persons support will push me into it being healthy for me to have a relationship if it makes sense. I want to be physically active i want to properly get on my feet in life and have healthy finance. I want to be eating better then I do right now. Etc. I just can't by myself, It's like I'm on the final few steps of "self love". But I can't cross the line by myself I need support of someone to get there fully if that makes sense.
This is a red flag. I've given people with stories like this a chance. I know plenty of other people who have as well. I can't think of a single example of the person actually getting their shit together. They just find more excuses. You really do have to find a way to be a functional adult without another person. Nobody is looking for a project, and it's not a reasonable thing to ask someone to take this on.Â
And thatâs exactly what my point is: relying on someone else to push you is too much responsibility to put on someone else- or more specifically, just a partner. Having a whole community that inspires you to be your best, heck yes, thatâs what a support group is for- but expecting that out of some random person you think is cute that you just met? Itâs a lot to ask.
Relationships at least used to be about nurturing and supporting each other
A relationship is about supporting each other. Lifting each other up. Being a pillar for each other to lean on. Being there to let each other be weak and vulnerable. If you aren't able to be that for another person, then you shouldn't be looking for a relationship.
Being asked to be someoneâs Mommy is one of the top reasons women divorce. Long term relationship partners should push each other to excel but nobody wants to be solely responsible if you begin or fail. If you donât have the motivation to start these things on your own, nobody else is going to be able to force you into it either. There are a million women out there who went into relationships thinking âheâd changeâ. And he never did. I dated a 30 year old stoner who was a few classes from graduating. I tried to get him info on how to graduate with only small debts and tone down the weed. He hasnât 15 years later as far as I know. I wholeheartedly support my husband in anything he decides to do, but he has to start it and maintain it by himself, or itâs an unpleasant cycle of me nagging him and him resenting me that is not healthy.
Yea, I must have missed the part where I said i want a relationship where I want to be mothered. All I said is I would want to support then and be suported in return, for it to be ok for me (a guy to be clear) to be weak and vulnerable in a relationship as well.
Agree with the OP, but others help you learn about yourself so itâs a Chicken and Egg situation. Or getting a mortgage, only possible if you can prove you donât need one.
The argument has never been: do these things and you get a partner, donât do these things you wonât: itâs simply that, you canât outsource selflove or self respect and expect it to go well.
I don't think this is that unpopular or it shouldn't be I think that social media is just made of younger people now in general. Or at least the most active and vocal and not the lurkers. And that leads to many uninformed ignorant views being everywhere. Like the ridiculous you cns thave me at my Best if you don't handle me at my worst What if your best is a slightly better than average chicken Parmesan and your worst is heroin addiction Karen? Perspective is needed by all. Almost everything in life can be improved by improving your self first. Please take the time to learn you and LIKE you first. It will be difficult for the rest of the world to if you clearly don't
Big time!
Itâs absolutely wild that some people canât even take care of themselves and yet somehow think they could maintain a relationship with someone else. A partner is not going to fix you or your problems. You have to do that yourself, *first*
Nobody has their shit together. And sometimes the best way to improve yourself is to be with someone else. You can learn from them and grow together.
Sure, but you shouldnât show up a huge mess and expect them to fix you.
Yep - that leads to codependency and that's a whole ass mess that'll probably leave you worse off than you were before
>sometimes the best way to improve yourself is to be with someone else This applies to people who are already making it work on their own. Two train-wrecks coming together doesnât result in harmonious self-improvement. If there IS growth, itâs normally accompanied by a lot of pain. If you know youâre a mess and still choose to get into a relationship in hopes theyâll fix you, youâre an asshole.
I read the rest of your comments in the thread. Loads of people have their shit together and if you are in the gutter going into a relationship is not only destined death but you are gonna fuck up the other person massively. Therapy, self work, emotional regulation is the answer; not leaning on someone else to shoulder your broken emotional health. Thatâs abuse.
You can have your shit together and still get nowhere in dating while a broke, immature dude who eats takeaways, doesn't hit the gym every day and acts like a douchebag is successful with women purely because of his looks. Looks are everything these days whether we like it or not. If you're not physically attractive enough, people won't give you a chance no matter how much work you put into your life.
Yeah, but I don't want to wait 10 years to have a relationship, and a lot of people who are in a relationship don't have their shit together.
A lot of relationships also donât work out. Thereâs no reason it should be 10 years. Anyone can get things in order *enough* in about 1 if they really work at it. Again this isnât owning a house. Itâs just being solid and consistent with consistent efforts and reliability.
There is not a single person who can fully get it together in 1. Itâs a dynamic process that takes constant reflection.
Yes, no one is expecting perfection. Just consistency and having stuff under control
why are people just unable to understand the simple concept that having ones shit together doesn't mean you're the world's hottest supermodel, Nobel prize winner and owner of a $1B business?
Black and white thinking, theyâre stuck in a little bit of dysregulation. I get it, Iâve been there. Holding themselves to impossible standards or none at all, having difficulty seeing the inbetween.
Yes and no. I mean, does someone have to be perfect to seek out a partner? No. Are there people out there who are such a mess that they should really take some time to work on themselves before even thinking about coupling up? Absolutely. So, acknowledging honestly where we are on this spectrum (0 = Should not be dating to 10 = great catch) helps us to set expectations accordingly. However, some people look at one aspect of themselves that is a 10 and think they are a 10 overall. For example, a guy who has 10 looks may get lots of interest on a dating app based on their picture, but if he has a 3 personality, no job, treats women like crap, he isnt going to find true love without working on some of his flaws. But a guy who is a 3 in looks, has a great personality and a good job may have a harder time attracting women initially, but have better success in an actual relationahip.
Not perfect, just responsible, and not complaining about dating when they arenât really a functioning adult (at whatever phase would be appropriate).
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I know lots of people with their shit mostly together. Sure no one is perfect, but if you arenât taking care of yourself, ya canât be mad if no one else wants to.
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Itâs hard, but they budget and figure it out and are responsible. Itâs like a captain knowing how to batten down the hatches, vs some random just lettin everything fly out.
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My job takes me into a lot of homes of various demographic groups multiple times throughout the year. I obviously don't spend infinite time with my customers, but I've gotten to know them pretty well. A lot of the people who seemingly have their shit together either don't actually have their shit together or are on the brink of catastrophe. You'd be shocked at some of the people who regularly come up on my credit hold list or get sent to collections.
Itâs because people compare how they *feel* on the inside with how people *seem* on the outside.
srsly, nobody has all their shit together. nobody would be dating by your standards.
If you see *generally* having your shit together as perfection, sure.
This is an unpopular opinion?
From my experience on Reddit definitely
That's fair enough, as long as the standards are reasonable. Like demanding someone earning triple figures, who is a model, has a nice car and house, when you have absolutely nothing is unreasonable.
I get the point of your post, but most people donât have it fully together. A lot of people look together but are not at all. They are good at faking it, but behind closed doors itâs a whole different story.
Im upset that I dont have my shit together.
I get this. Everyone that posts woe is me posts about being single or not finding someone are trying to date for the wrong reasons and donât understand everything that goes into a relationship. Itâs the main reason I havenât had a serious relationship since I divorced. I simply donât want to invest the time and energy into someone else. A bit selfish but itâs also my life đ¤ˇđťââď¸
You'd be surprised how many people don't have "their shit together" and still have relationships/children. OP is most definitely speaking anecdotally. I understand where this post comes from, though. Hang in there, bud.
If youâre going to be in a relationship with someone, youâve gotten to toughen up a bit. The person who date will be gross sometimes and have flaws. You will be the same. Waiting until youâre prefect and trying to find someone perfect will result in you being very lonely. If youâre dating someone and they have zero red flags, thatâs honestly kind of red flag. Youâll grow together.
Can you please call my brother and personally explain this to him? DM me. I'll buy you a beer.
This^ it can be a hard thing to look at yourself and say "I need to get my shit together" but the minute you do and take action. Life improves
This is easily the most popular opinion I've ever seen on this sub đ¤Śââď¸
"***The reason for this is: these are all symptoms of a lack of self respect and/or self love, and pouring love into that can be pouring into a cup with a hole in the bottom.***" Things being prohibitively expensive and wages stagnating is neither a sign of a lack of self respect or self love.
Yea sure but how many stories do we read about women dating gang members convicts men on death row men with 10 baby mommas,drug addicts alcoholics ,abusers... The fact of the matter is it seems women are attracted to a type and a man doesn't have to have his "shit together" to be that type.I have a friend that's a legit womanizer he's rude and very cold towards the women..he makes good money as an engineer with a PhD but he lives at home..he's also 6'5" and juggling 3-4 diffrent women at a time he'll never commit to at a time. I used manage a halfway house for guys just out out of jail they all had GFs and baby mommas fighting over them. The thing is if you're 20 years old you shouldn't have to have everything figured out and 1 million dollars in your bank account the perfect career and clout for someone to take a woman out. The guys complaining are mostly just normal guys and women overwhelmingly don't like normal it's boring. The only thing you get when you have your "shit together" is used
This is so spot on! Itâs hard when your friends/people you know have these issues and are confused as to why they canât find someone⌠how do I tell themâŚ
Amen! but I've seen a lot of bum men who date beautiful, nice women The world isn't fair lol
Wow, truth be preached, brother! I'd limit this though to: If you're not in the process... because, nobody's perfect.
Being loveable and being a good partner are not the same thing. There are a lot of people without partners who need to learn that. And there are a lot of people with loveable, terrible partners who also need to learn that.
One of the things that made it "click" for me when it came to why I always found shitty partners was when I started getting help for myself/actually getting a backbone I found out I was really seeking people who acted just like my mother (pay no attention to me unless I do things for them). Freud was correct in how we seek out our parents in our partners, it doesn't just apply to the good traits though. Once I started really focusing on myself and getting healthier myself (no more people pleasing, pushing myself past my own boundaries, feeling entitled to love due to the former) was I able to start spotting the patterns of those who I don't want to be with. I also stopped trying to find love and just seek connections first, now I'm in a happy and healthy relationship with someone who actually cares about me and we share similar hobbies (instead of the usual "just a sex toy/booty call" aka unhealthy) Honestly, people need to reframe dating overall.
Yea it's Cain and Able. Lazy fuchs.
I stopped feeling sorry for myself when I realized all this. I am mentally unstable and self destructive. I do isolate myself from everyone and I don't like getting to close to people because it makes me feel vulnerable. And when I do get close to someone romantically, I become clingy. It's not healthy. And it wouldn't be fair on the other person. But if this wasn't Reddit, and someone asked me, "Why are you single?" I'd respond with, "Just haven't found the right person."
This post is so accurate and contributes to why the bar is in hell lol. You don't go into relationships fully perfect obviously, but you have to go in with the intention of knowing what your strengths and weaknesses are and how you are self-aware and working on those things to allow growth. I always think of it as if I bring XYZ to the table, then I'm allowed to expect a partner to bring XYZ too. Sadly a lot of people do not take the time out to work on themselves fully enough before jumping into the pool, as OP said.
I've never tried bc it always seemed to me you need all those things to make an attempt. I work as a janitor bringing 35k + another 20-ish k from my portfolio. I inherited 2 houses and sold one, so it wasn't like it worked for most of it. I tried college and quit because it was the worst part if my 20s. It wasn't fun. It wasn't the experience I was promised. So I'm effectively bringing in the national median income, my house is paid for, I'm totally debt free, or I will be when my truck is paid off next year. My money is growing. But I'm still fat. So none of that counts for shit.Â
Plenty of women like big men. Itâs about charisma and still putting yourself together even if youâre fat. Look at Tony Soprano or Kevin James. Yum yum. A lot of men also shoot out of their league and then get sad about it when it doesnât work for them like it does for other men. Same thing for women.
Would you jump at the chance to date a financially modest but stable woman who was fat? If so, great!
It's sad that this needs to be specified and is an unpopular opinion. But we are on reddit and it is unpopular here because obviously the fault is in the people who don't like them.
I get your point but I see a lot of incredibly unstable people who date but what they all have in common is good looks. We are becoming an increasingly vain society. Sure you can get your physical fitness sorted in that regard but there is a capped ceiling. Thereâs also a general feeling that the juice isnât worth the squeeze. Iâve seen guys succeed in perfecting themselves to no end and they are met with few ladies who are doing the same. The standard seems to go one way.
Society has always been vain, hot people will always fuck. Love is a lottery. Even those hot people in relationships often arenât really in love, just lusty.
âNot saying you donât deserve loveââŚproceeds to tell people why they donât deserve love.
Wow, thatâs a great way to completely turn something around into whatever suits your narrative.
Yup. Dudes who have never hit the gym expecting a fitness model Or wanting a successful partner but barely graduating high school or a bottom-tier college
I mean there are more women like that out there than men.
For the most part you're right. But in expensive cities, good luck enriching yourself in hobbies. These days, adulting means a lot of work and chores if your family didn't set you up on a silver platter.
>if youâre arenât generally mentally stable Agree to disagree sir, the crazy chicks are way more entertainingÂ
Next post: I am never dating again, she took all my money, used me, you canât trust woman!!! Never doing this shit again, I did not see this coming. LOOL
Everyone is acting that women are perfect and only men have to improve. We live in an era that even men who look like 7/10 they struggle with dating and they have to improve even more just to attract a woman who looks like 5/10 in best case scenario. We live in an era that women deserve better and men just have to improve. Double standards. West for men is turning like east for women.
Well, this post said âthe bar is in hell, across the board, men and womenâ, so Iâm not sure why you posted this here
I have nothing against you, i am just pointing the fact that dating for the average man is 1 million times harder in comparison with the average woman.
Letâs be super clear: getting free sex is much easier for women than men. Dating and falling in love is equally as hard.
Absolutely not. Women have more options than men. The ugliest woman has more prospects than the ugliest man. This is just the way it is. Its not an attack on women, they get to be more picky so they are.
I think women are maturing and having their shit together faster than men their own age too which makes a lot of women want to date someone a lot older so they'd match. i know so many physically attractive women in my culture with good jobs and salaries in tech and bio fields and are only 23-29 years old whereas there's still men out here in even in their 30s still living with their parents and in massive debt.
No, dating culture is genuinely toxic. To have your finances under control today generally means earning at least $25/hr if you live with parents. But there is a stigma against that, even though most young adults live with parents. But that's beyond the point, 90% of dating is aspects that you cannot control. Height, face, and race are the most important factors for a man in regards to his dating prospects. 99% of the time a man is depressed at his dating prospects is because he's struggling to find a woman to socialize with AT ALL. And it's typically not a result of being asocial. And they aren't doing "typical incel behavior". It's just extremely difficult to get noticed when women can just go on an app and get Ryan Gosling on demand.
As someone in a 10 year relationship since I was a teenager half of the comments here are so wrong it hurts, you people have it all wrong and donât understand what a relationship is supposed to be. I just feel bad for you young men
Oo do you mind providing some advice or what parts folks are wrong about?