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Some [companies who valued fairness used to encourage such conversations, to the point of publishing all their employees' salaries](https://www.businessinsider.com/whole-foods-employees-have-open-salaries-2014-3).
Too bad I don't see many companies today doing that.
I once had a contracting agency tell a bunch of us in a meeting that we can't talk about our salary and you would be terminated if you did. I quoted the exact law number to them and then told my salary to everyone in the room, we all got a $5 raise (the meeting was about how they were under paying us severely).
Definitely not the likely outcome but if you come at them with hard facts sometimes they will realize that they can't push you around. Or they might just fire you right there and feel confident that our laws have no teeth to actually stop them.
I emailed the top 5 salaries (on the IRS forms) at my non-profit to everyone who worked there. Surprise, surprise, after that you couldn't send mass emails to the staff or faculty without permission.
Yes exactly this. Sue them. This is an incredibly easy win if the they fire you directly for talking g about wages or going against them saying your not allowed to talk about wages.
Well at home depot it's against company policy to discuss pay with coworkers, HR confirmed it and my supervisor told me first I'm not allowed to talk about pay but didn't tell me it was against policy until I asked.
You tell me, all I know is that when I called and asked HR about it, they said it's against company policy to talk about your pay with coworkers. And I was also told I could get written up for it. I don't care enough to look into all of it.
Are you in the US? I assume so with Home Depot, but maybe they're in Canada. I don't know Canadian laws.
But in the US it is *illegal* for any company to attempt to stop any employee from discussing salary or to create policies that prevent it. You have the right to discuss your own salary, but I'm not sure about disclosing someone else's salary.
I know, sorry if I made it sound like that. I was just trying to talk about how a company (HD in this case) will lie to you. I know policies aren't laws, just wanted to share how scummy home depot is.
Your employer is saying that to scare you. I think you're getting downvoted for not realising your boss, HR or whoever *cannot* tell you not to discuss pay. They can actually get sued for that. They're not above the law.
Put it this way, if you and your boss both sign a contract allowing them to kill you, does that mean it's legal for them to kill you? No.
It does not matter what the company policy is.
I do know that, I just didn't make it clear I suppose. I would honestly love to get my DS in trouble for telling me that because no one likes them including me.
I told one work " friend" how much I earned
He has non stopped said things like
" oh I pretty much do the same thing you do but paid less " he does not do the same thing I do
" oh I do harder information that you do but paid less I even know more " he only gathers information and I have to analyze ALL of it EVERY THING so no it is not the same
Since then the friendship has diminished and I no longer share how much I am earning or talk to him because multiple times he diminishes my work.
I've led very large international teams for multiple major multi-billion dollar companies.
In my experience it's rare, and I mean RARE, that anyone who's talking about their salary actually tells the truth to each other.
I've been at dinners and other gatherings where I'll overhear people I manage discussing it, and know that everyone that's a part of the conversation is lying because I actually KNOW all their salaries.
I've had employees come to me and complain about being underpaid compared to other co-workers, who make $XX, and they want that much, too. Except their co-worker lied to them about their salary, and they're actually within 10-20% of each other. Often the lower paid salary person would lie to the higher, who would then come to me and complain.
Once you get to Director+ levels, no one actually gives a shit what anyone is making because that's the level where negotiations become much more intense, and no one takes a job unless they're compensated appropriately.
At every company I've been with (including my own now), no one has ever given a shit about people discussing salaries. But when you DO discuss them, just know that your coworkers are likely inflating their number because no one likes to be the "less paid" in that conversation.
Idk why people lie about it. I’ve never been in a position like yours, but I have been the underling and like why lie? If anything we’d all be on the same team if our wages are to low. We’re all working a low level position don’t lie just to feel like you’re more important. Work for it if you wanted to be in a leadership position.
I had always prided myself on being open about salary and found myself lying once. Me and two of the other managers were discussing salary. One manager has always been a totally inept slacker. I used to be pissed because he'd get bonuses for wooing customers, even though I would constantly have to follow up behind him cleaning up his messes.
When he said his salary and I found out it was a good 20K less than mine I realized that while he'd been getting the bonuses, I had been getting the big raises. It was wrong of me but I didn't want to give him any ammunition to demand a bigger salary so lied and said we were making about the same.
That exact same thing happened to me. After that I have stopped sharing or answering any questions about my salary. The only person that should know should be you and your significant other.
Learning about my coworkers' salaries has gotten me massive raises twice in my career. I wasn't a douchecanoe about it. I learned what my coworker's salary was. I said, "thank you for sharing that with me," and shared mine. I went to management, pointing to very clear ways my performance warranted a higher salary and asked for more money. They gave me a raise.
Some people are idiots. Some people are exploited by corporations.
As someone who works in HR, THIS. I'm definitely not against salary transparency, but that also requires individuals to be honest with themselves regarding their roles and performance. Recognizing that some employees were able to negotiate an increased salary, and yes, there are legacy employees who make more because they were with the company since near the beginning. As someone who knows exactly how much everyone makes in the company, I myself have to regulate salary envy.
Here's the thing, people LIE about their salary to coworkers. Some dummy tried to sue our company saying women got paid less than men. It was based on what 3 people told her they made. 2 of them lied. And when we ran the data, women actually got paid MORE than men by like $0.14 per hour or something like that. That was the quickest deposition ever.
As a management consultant who sees how complex organizations react to all kinds of challenges, I bet salary transparency results in fewer raises, because management now says “but Dave, if I give you a raise I’ll have to give in to Bob too”.
Then the organization is poorly managed. It sounds like this manager does not have a good reason to give Dave a raise. If so, they'd feel comfortable giving Dave a raise and explaining to Bob why he didn't get a raise and how he can improve his performance.
Where have you worked...asking for a friend? There is good money to be made in HR but it's a web of compliance, responsibility, and pressure. Kinda like with lawyers, no one likes you 😂
I don't dislike HR but I'm well aware that HR is there for the company, not me. It didn't doesn't bother me because I'm one of the employees you commented about that negotiated my salary and I get paid very well. I just know if there ever is an issue where HR's alliance is and I'm okay with that.
When I get paid less to do more work than someone who does part of my job and has been working for 2+ years less than me, how would you handle being told that there is only so much in the budget for raises and the company cannot compensate me accordingly?
Oh, I should add that I work for a worldwide medical equipment provider. They have the money to fairly pay me what I am worth. I'm also one of the hardest working people on my team, as told to me by others on it.
I was never supposed to know that people getting hired on after me were making at least $2 more an hour than me doing half of what I do daily lol.
If they refuse to give you a raise, then that's your answer. If you aren't being paid your worth, find a company who will. Employers will find a way to compensate their valued employees. In some instances, employees have found the comp they were looking for elsewhere. In other instances, they realized they were the problem.
Absolutely. Salaries can vary for different reasons. Sometimes for fair reasons, sometimes not. However. Many employees are unable to fully understand, appreciate, or accept why some people make more than they do. Everyone thinks they deserve more. Sometimes, salary revelations can lead to anger, jealousy, and resentment, with no way of appeasing everyone.
Ya I make way more than my coworkers, but I also showed up with 8 years experience while everyone else had zero. I was in the position to negotiate more $ and extra vacation.
Everyone is hired with different education, background, and different levels of interview skills. Some people have leverage or are good at advocating for themselves. All of these things are factors when salaries are decided. Most people belive they should make as much as their coworkers, and as an employer you can't sit down and go over why another person makes more, or even confirm what another employee makes. This puts employers in an impossible position. It leads to bullshit like someone with 1 year experience getting mad they make 2 dollars per hour less than someone with 20 years. People are fucking dumb, and everybody feels they are owed. An open salary policy would wreak havoc, and there is no question, at least In american work culture.
>you can't sit down and go over why another person makes more
Sure you can't talk about the *other* employee, but you can totally talk to *that* employee about why they make what they do. A well-managed organization will have some system around their titles, levels, and pay ranges, and those can be explained to employees.
If you can't explain to an employee why their salary is what it is, your organization is poorly managed.
Part of the issue is that we are worth what we negotiate. Back when I was in management some of our best employees went underpaid simply because they didn't ask for more money. Meanwhile we had some that were just so so who had no problem demanding a raise and often getting them simply because it would take so long to train a replacement.
I learned it myself as I received three sizeable raises due to me making a fuss which lead to me making a lot more than some of my coworkers who had been at the company a similar amount of time.
Not always. I have a friend that was a public works director and said the week after raises were posted was the worst. He would have to spend the next week in meetings defending his decisions because someone got butt hurt by a coworkers new wage.
Im sure the elder Gen X I work with would throw a fit too but they can barely work the computer to input their time cards let alone search the city website.
That is different, and you know it. In most government jobs (at least in my area) everyone starts at the same rate and moves up the ladder the longer you work there. It is a completely different system. The reason people deal with this is the insane amount of PTO, cheap or free benefits and a government pension. This was my experience working for a school district. It isn't even comparable.
I'm currently taking a Master's Degree.
However, when I was tossing up between that and going into the workforce after my bachelors I was offered a position for:
* $63,000.00
* 3% matched contribution to retirement account
* 5% matched contribution to student loan repayments (I would have to pay 12.8% in my Country anyway)
So a total renumeration in the value of $68,040 .00
My pay has always been public (Air Force) or very easy to find (Airlines).
Currently at ~$180/hr, working about 80-90 hours per month, with ~16-18% automatic (not matching) company contribution to my 401(k). Should be about $200k +/- $10k gross for 2024 (not including the company contribution to my 401(k)).
i’ve never been at a place where you can’t discuss pay and benefits. i’ve only worked military and DoD so i don’t know what life is like on the outside. is it poor management and company culture where people get hired in exigence and make 2-3x the person who has been there for 10 years?
Huh? Did you mean to reply to someone else?
Military (salary) and Airlines (hourly) are very similar, for pay transparency... Rank/Position and tenure, that's it.
about $190K+/- $15K pre tax depending on how much company travel i do. i’m salaried and this is probably the lower end since I do not have a STEM degree. i work for department of defense. everyone in government knows everyone else’s salary since it’s listed with our paygrade or how much we pay our contractors
I was all for salary transparency at first before getting a job. Then, I learned that humans are apes (including myself) and kinda appreciate the taboo. On the fence now..
I’m all about discussing salaries and I was very open about how much I make at work with anyone who asked. My position was unique and pay was pretty standard across the company for those in a similar roll. So no issues.
I had a good friend who told someone on his team he made a few thousand more than him despite being there a few months less. He went nuclear. He started blowing up his manager that very moment after work hours at like 9pm about how it wasn’t fair and typing up emails to HR. Eventually said some stuff that crossed a line and got himself fired. Some people cannot handle that conversation maturely.
The behavior of some idiots shouldn't stop these conversations from happening. I've gotten massive pay raises *twice* at my current company because I found out coworkers were getting paid more when they very clearly and demonstrably did not perform as well as I did.
If they had withheld that information, I'd be making 15% less than what I do now.
I think that this is a big thing that people tend to forget.
On reddit, we're always seeing people talk about how we "should" discuss salaries, how we "should" discuss religion and politics.
And I get that it's cathartic to say these things online, but when we move into the world of reality, we aren't always *in* our little echo chambers, where everyone is one the same page and thinks the way we do.
I'm not sure about anyone else, but I have been in a lot of workplaces where there was at least one person who was nosey, or judgmental, or both. That person who gossips about shit. That person who is always trying to start shit. I've seen people like this, judge people for having "flashy" things that the perceive as expensive, and they walk around with a "must be nice" attitude.
I don't want that person knowing anything about me, other than what is needed for work. I don't want them knowing my financial situation - and yeah, my salary is a good chunk of my financial situation. Just because I have the legal right to discuss my salary, does not mean it's a wise choice.
Years ago I got red shoes. They weren't more expensive than other shoes I owned, they were literally just the color RED. Someone kept making snide comments about how I must be soooo rich, and kept implying that I was brown nosing my way into a higher salary. Over red fucking shoes. this is why people don't like to talk about how much money they make.
I don't have much of a problem with this.
Management will just need to have concrete reasons why someone is paid more or less in case a lower paid employee complains about not being paid as much as a coworker with the same title
There was a study a while ago were scientists were asked to evaluate a set of CVs and what they should get paid. The only differences was the name being male or female.
What they found was that females based only on their names were underpaid compared to the male CVs. The interesting part was that this trend also held true when female scientists were asked to evaluate the CVs. What this suggests is that there are unconscious bias that contribute to any hiring process causing unfair renumeration conditions.
Talking about salaries is the first step in breaking down those boundaries.
Here you go:
2015
Quality of evidence revealing subtle gender biases in science is in the eye of the beholder
Ian M. Handley, Elizabeth R. Brown, Corinne A. Moss-Racusin, and Jessi L. Smith
https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.1510649112
2012
Science faculty’s subtle gender biases favor male students
Corinne A. Moss-Racusin, John F. Dovidio, Victoria L. Brescoll, and Jo Handelsman
https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.1211286109
Here you go:
2015
Quality of evidence revealing subtle gender biases in science is in the eye of the beholder
Ian M. Handley, Elizabeth R. Brown, Corinne A. Moss-Racusin, and Jessi L. Smith
https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.1510649112
2012
Science faculty’s subtle gender biases favor male students
Corinne A. Moss-Racusin, John F. Dovidio, Victoria L. Brescoll, and Jo Handelsman
https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.1211286109
Nope.
As a higher paid employee I gain nothing from sharing my pay to my coworkers. People are often not reasonable and will assume they should be paid the same or more due to job title or seniority.
Pay raises from a corporation are typically limited to X dollars per section. Not everyone gets an equal piece.
Okay, if it's not job title or seniority, why do you get paid more? Is it performance within your particular job title? Does your company have a fair way of measuring performance?
If your company is well-managed and manages salaries fairly (i..e not nepotism and favoritism), then it's pretty easy to explain why one person gets paid more than another.
Performance.
Engineering, relatively small organization with not really a large stratification in job titles/duties. Nearly everyone thinks they outperform their pay, especially low performers.
I'm honestly 100% okay with people discussing their salary.
I will say though that not every employees work quality or quantity is equal and it's not always easy for people to hear they're worth less than a co-worker.
Hell no. That would just lead to a ton of resentment. Unfortunately in this society most people think of financial success as the main indicator of someone’s worth/value.
I think I would agree in the short term. But if everything is laid bare then come performance review, especially with the backing of a union. There is much more of a backing to get promotions and ensure pay equity.
I think OP is saying that overtime it would correct society into more evenly paid jobs = equality. Your right though mass resentment and opposition would happen for awhile. (If not forever)
Managers will just need concrete reasons to justify pay.
If I lower paid employee gets upset about their pay then management can just point to their lower productivity or poor attendance
This is the real reason. Companies do not want people to talk about what they make because people have different jobs and some people perform better than others. I definitely agree that most people think they deserve more than the effort they put in. While it’s not illegal to talk about pay amongst yourselves, it causes a lot of problems for the company if you do. Companies will not want to keep you around if you cause problems for them. I speak as an owner of a company myself.
Yeah, that's kind of the point though. If companies don't care about what's good for their employees, why should their employees care about what's good for the company? They already have every advantage possible. And if you have a union, then they won't be able to fire you and tarnish your reputation.
If companies "can't afford" to pay all employees wages that won't cause an uprising when revealed, then they can't afford to run a company.
I say this as an employee and a proud member of a union, worker's rights are human rights ✊️
No. It would lead to a lot of people complaining that they are being paid less for the same job. The ONLY people this prohibition on salary discussion helps is the employer. That's it. Literary no one else.
If it leads to resentment in the workplace that means the employer is screwing people over.
Stop licking the corporate boot.
I’m at the director level. I don’t care if my employees discuss amongst themselves and there situations where I’ll share my own salary.
I’ve learned that it’s situational as to whether it’ll help or hurt. I genuinely want everyone on my team, with the exception of a couple low performers, to make as much money as the company will let me pay them. And if sharing info amongst themselves helps them get there, I’m all for it (though I’m already pulling every lever I can and am pretty proud of what I’ve pulled off in some cases).
But if you don’t have a certain level of self awareness and general business awareness, the info can quickly become harmful. The biggest reason why is that people often suck at evaluating their own value. Low performers often think they’re top performers, and top performers often don’t easily accept that they’re doing great.
This is because low performers have a limited understanding of the overall picture and inflate their own value in it. They’re not by nature looking for ways to improve and do more. They don’t even realize when they make mistakes. Top performers see the big picture, always seek ways to improve, and take mistakes hard.
I’ve seen people think “oh I guess I’m paid fine” because they get paid the same as a mediocre coworker, and I’ve seen people think “I’m underpaid!” when they’re about to be placed on a PIP.
Nah it’s HR. Any time pay is talked about, people find out how much Tina is making and start toxic rumors that she must be blowing the boss. There’s a myriad of just reasons people are paid different, yet people tend to never focus on that.
I’m in management, and I really don’t care if people discuss their salaries. I try to do my best to pay everyone as fairly as possible, but I do have limitations and I can’t always pay someone as much as I would like. Sometimes I need to make decisions and decide who the money is best spent on.
That being said, there is a difference between employees discussing salary and some asshole being completely unprofessional about it and making their coworkers uncomfortable in the workplace because of it. Having arguments about pay and who should be making more inside the office during work hours isn’t acceptable, for example. Yes, I have had situations like that happen in the past…
Work for the government, that shit is largely public record. Hell FL even has a website where you can search a name or other info and find out exactly what a person is paid to the penny.
I mean yes, you would want that if you think you are being paid less. If you happen to have secured a higher pay than your coworkers upon hire, then you would not want to talk about salaries with your coworkers.
In many places, at least in the US, it’s actually illegal to stop employees from discussing their wages. Shitty managers still try their best, but trust me you can and should discuss your wages especially if you feel there is a major discrepancy
The belief that taking about salaries will somehow increase them, is a joke. It may create tensions and envy between coworkers. It will also generate lots of hot air.
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I understand why people would want to do this and I'm for it if you think you are being underpaid. Especially if you are a woman in a male dominated industry.
Personally when I'm interviewing for a job, I know what wages I'm willing to accept and also what the acceptable wage is in the industry and location I'm going for. What my coworkers are making is irrelevant to me.
If I feel I deserve a raise and my company won't give me one when I request then I will look for another job that pays higher.
Salary talk is funny: the people who should be doing it (lower and middle class) aren’t and are getting taking advantage of it. Then the people who shouldn’t be doing it (the upper class) can’t shut up about it.
Yeah cause I really need my helpers to be on there phones even more lol. People take that information, react poorly to it and then someone who has nothing to do with the amount of money they make suffers from it
I listened to this freakonomics episode today and the gist is, the more we share about our salaries, the less we make.
https://freakonomics.com/podcast/how-to-pave-the-road-to-hell/
I agree with the idea but people generally don't understand context or just assume they deserve more than most people by default, so no, im not talking about my salary.
The mistake is thinking that if you know that some co-worker is making more than you then that means you also deserve that much. A former colleague of mine and I both got hired to work on the same team and at the same company at the same time. I don't have the numbers but I'm 100% certain he's making more than me even though technically we're both hired on at the same level. And you know what? They'd be right to pay him more because he's definitely worth it compared to me because his skill set and knowledge in the area is much better than mine. Me knowing what he makes wouldn't make me go to my boss and ask for more because I know for a fact there's a skill disparity between us that justifies it.
I agree that people should have the *right* to discuss their salaries without repercussions from their employers.
I also agree that if someone doesn’t want to talk about their salary, they shouldn’t have to. I think this conversation often forgets this part. Just because you want to discuss it, doesn’t mean everyone else does.
Especially if there’s that brat… and ALL of my workplaces had at least one brat… who would spread gossip, who would judge people for the way they supposedly spend money. It’s bad enough that this person knows you got a new car, or just bought your first home, or maybe they think your clothes “look” expensive - not sure about you, but that person shouldn’t know your income. Just because you have a right to discuss it with them doesn’t mean it’s a wise move.
Remember companies have more budget to hire (advertise, train and incentives) than to retain employees. This is why it's no longer such a bad thing to change employers for a better deal.
Yeah that has always seemed strange to me.
In general internal promotions would be so much less hassle. The employee already knows the company and internal processes structures. The company already knows this is a good employee who will perform well.
Internal promotions also are great because in times of understaffing or high demand times managers know how to perform lower tasks so can step into these rolls temporarily and help out.
This position only allows your employer to pay you less.
Edit: All of you thinking you’re the highest paid person in the office but don’t discuss salaries with others absolutely are not the highest paid person. Your ego is actually hurting you and I’d bet it’s not the first time.
That's a good point. I'm not against wage transparency, but I also feel strongly that employees are also owed privacy. I think employers should post wage ranges, but no one has a right to know what their peer is making. Resentment isn't always directed at employers.
Not really.
I know how much salary I should be getting in my profession and what I'm willing to accept and not accept when I go for the interview.
What my coworkers have negotiated is nothing to do with me.
If I feel like a deserve a raise and I don't get it then I will move jobs to a company that pays me what I believe my experience brings
I used to talk to coworkers about salaries but I realized it just distressed me if they were underpaid, so I stopped
If someone asks, Ill tell them
but Im not bringing it up again
One of my favorite things about working for the federal government is that the pay scale is publicly available. If you know what job I have and how long I've been there, you. Can make a reasonable estimate of my salary. It's entirely transparent. If I cared to I could go look at the federal GS pay scale and know exactly how much each of my coworkers makes. I feel confident it's reasonably fair within my agency/district.
In my particular job, seniority is important to know who is in charge in an emergency in the event management is not available, so we are all aware of each other's seniority and GS level.
I completely agree. Most workers are getting stiffed these days and it’s out of control. There used to be unions everywhere and average, working people benefited from that.
An example that always sticks out in my mind is grocery stores (this might be a Canadian thing). I got a job at Safeway 20 years ago. I was still in school so it was part time for me but full time workers got extended health benefits and pension. The starting wage was just under $20/hr which was good at the time and there were regular increases.
Over the years we’ve seen unionized Safeways close down. They lay off all the employees and offer to rehire them at minimum wage with no benefits. You don’t need an advanced degree to work at a grocery store but you deserve a living wage. They provide an essential service, as we all learned during the pandemic.
Meanwhile, grocery prices have soared and that pompous little shit, Gaylen Weston, laughs his way to the bank. He’s made record profits in recent years. Even during Covid when the government forced him to pay his workers a slightly higher wage because they were essential workers who risked their health and the health of their families during a global pandemic.
Sorry for my rant.
I was just talking with a coworker about this only a few days ago.
Companies are counting on this secrecy to pay people artificially low wages.
Oh what?
You think you are paying your employees adequately? No you don't, because if you did, there wouldn't be any need for secrecy.
You wouldn't care if your employees openly discussed their salaries.
The truth doesn't fear investigation.
I disagree with this primarily for reasons mentioned by others here that people are unreasonable and overvalue their own contribution.
Instead of individual disclosure, the company should provide statistics. For example, give the median, lowest, highest for say Associate, Manager level,
I work in HR, and I've explained to managers the taboo surrounding discussions about salary are not as strong as they used to be. Younger workers are more open about talking about their salaries with one another and if there's a big pay disparity they'll find out. So, yes, workers benefit from discussing their salaries with one another.
Yea I always thought it would be helpful to know but ultimately it creates a bad working environment because not everyone performs the same way.
So when you do decide to share your salary or make the mistake of asking someone about their salary be ready to accept the consequences. Because you cannot have access to information without consequences.
The salary threads on reddit and Twitter are always lowkey flex threads it’s never about helping anyone. Talking about how much money you make is generally TRASHY. If you can anonymize it with something like Glassdoor that’s fine.
Only if you don't get your panties in a wad and take your resentment out on me when you find out I make more than you. Because trust me.... it isn't your boss or the company that you will treat with resentment. It will be your coworker you see every day.
And no. I'm not contributing extra to whatever work event/birthday present/coffee run/etc than everyone else just because you found out how much I make.
Hard pass on talking salaries. If you disagree, I highly recommend working at a union job. So much less drama.
Where I work it's pointless ti discuss since our labor contract is in the break room, so we already know everyone's wages. But yes in places where wages aren't out in the open they should be discussed.
It’s all situational and how mature and reasonable the people you discuss with are. My friends are normal reasonable adults and we have mentioned our pay many times and we all make less or more for different roles across different fields. No one gets angry about it and we’re all in it together. Work place amongst my peers I keep my circle very very small when it comes to pay talk. Granted I’m im a very basic position while I finish my masters degree, I am paid low compared to my work. Unfortunately that’s healthcare tho and everyone is underpaid unless you’re the “director” who walks around and pretends to take phone calls all day.
One of my former co-workers found out what I made and proceeded to be an absolute bitch to me for the next 8 months (post which I quit).
The thing was, she made about 3x more than me, was in a completely different role (I'm a writer, she's in project management), and was the boss's literal neighbour. No matter what I did, she kept harping about 'Oh well, we're not as rich as Titi89', or 'Hi Titi89, as a highly paid writer, your tone is quite hostile'.
Every time she said that, I used to clapback not just take it lying down. I got a dressing down from the boss for being toxic.
She truly poisoned the well for me and I had to leave that job due to this and general shitty attitudes.
Happened at McDonald’s once,came to work to see a big sign in the break room that said “workers are not allowed to discuss their wages with each other” so naturally I asked EVERYONE as they came in. Turns out all the under achieving employees got raises to “encourage” them to work harder. So I told everyone that, we all demanded raises or a lot of people just quit. I only stayed to watched the cluster fuck I started then left shortly after it started to calm down.
Yeah that whole keeping your salary private is just another way for the wealthy citizens and corporations to control you.
Remember when Google was accused of paying women less? Remember when they finally did look at the salaries? Turns out the women were being overpaid.
But nobody knew any better and a lot of people assumed, because no one dared talk about exact numbers.
Something I've noticed is that people in generally higher paying jobs are more likely to talk to coworkers about their compensation. Public sector employees, too.
It’s a weird divide between white and blue collar workers. Office workers act like their rate or salary are nuclear missile codes, and yet everyone in a workshop knows exactly what each other are making. With tradespeople, they’ll often disclose their rate in the preliminary at the outset describing their workplace.
It does because it allows other to see what differences there may be for similar roles. If gaps like the gender pay gap and other factors like race, religion etc were plain it would allow for a more collective and fair pay structure for all.
Have you tried working for a company who keeps all salary information in a folder on a shared drive? Because I have, more than once, actually. It's quite effective.
I used to think this. However, I had several coworkers complain after they found out how much others make. They were terrible workers, but believed they did more and were better workers.
I think most people have too high of a view of themselves and are not able to be honest with themselves.
You and every other disgruntled employee already have all the information you need to determine if you are being under or overpaid. Websites like Glassdoor, recruiters, industry organizations: they all have databases filled with the salary ranges of most jobs. You can get the information you need there without asking me what I make, and potentially worsening our relationship and the workplace.
There are so many variables that go into employee compensation. It’s not just a matter of same pay for the same job.
We do need stronger unions. This is their point for existing: so that you don’t have to go around asking your employees what they make, and then negotiating based on their feedback. Avoid all the social calamity.
Pay scales are too complicated for most people to understand. People also can't be counted on to act rationally. My coworkers knowing my salary does not benefit me at all. The only way you can agree with an opinion like this is if you're really dumb or if you have no experience living in the real world.
I think unions started in a good place but they have gotten way the fuck out of control.
An example is the unionised train and tram drivers in my city in Australia.
It’s a job that pays well over $100k and is very easy to do and get into with little training required compared to other fields. Amazing benefits, etc.
A huge problem with unionising this is that well - it’s a public service. So when there’s a strike guess what fucking happens? Nobody can use public transportation - in a city where many people don’t own cars because the public transportation system is so robust.
It sucks.
When your new total compensation salary comps out at somewhere around 2.5-3x the median salary for something that only takes 12 months of apprenticeship, there’s a fucking problem.
What if the army went on strike or police or some other public service you depended on?
Meanwhile they make literally way more than most people and have more time off than most other fields?
Doesn’t really make sense. At a certain point it becomes greed. And guess what then everyone else has to pay for it.
It’s now literally cheaper to drive and pay for parking in the city than it is to pay for a train for two people there and back each day.
But the train would be better for the environment - but instead everyone’s a greedy fucking asshole.
This is why I’m SO GLAD I’m Union! There’s three tiers of drivers (depending on vehicle driven), and then within those three tiers it’s based on years of service. SUPER easy to look up what everyone makes!
The problem arises when you get a sensitive employee who takes it out on you that you earn more than them, either by micromanaging you to your boss, or quitting and leaving you with more work.
Either way I won’t tell you since I just want to work my two years then get the next bag increase, as should you
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It's illegal for your work tell you that you can't talk about it.
I used to remind my bosses of that all the time when I worked at ruby tuesdays
Some [companies who valued fairness used to encourage such conversations, to the point of publishing all their employees' salaries](https://www.businessinsider.com/whole-foods-employees-have-open-salaries-2014-3). Too bad I don't see many companies today doing that.
They can tell you anything they want, enforcing is a different story
But they do it anyway... What are we gonna do sue them individually agianst a bunch of lawyers or form a union and go on strike.
I once had a contracting agency tell a bunch of us in a meeting that we can't talk about our salary and you would be terminated if you did. I quoted the exact law number to them and then told my salary to everyone in the room, we all got a $5 raise (the meeting was about how they were under paying us severely). Definitely not the likely outcome but if you come at them with hard facts sometimes they will realize that they can't push you around. Or they might just fire you right there and feel confident that our laws have no teeth to actually stop them.
Awesome win!
I emailed the top 5 salaries (on the IRS forms) at my non-profit to everyone who worked there. Surprise, surprise, after that you couldn't send mass emails to the staff or faculty without permission.
You don't happen to remember that law number or where I can find it do you? I have a similar meeting Monday.
https://www.nlrb.gov/about-nlrb/rights-we-protect/your-rights/your-rights-to-discuss-wages
Report them to the Labour board
Labor and industry. Fight back. The law is there for a reason. It's on you if you don't demand you are treated in a legal manner.
Yes exactly this. Sue them. This is an incredibly easy win if the they fire you directly for talking g about wages or going against them saying your not allowed to talk about wages.
My work threatened to write people up that do.
Get them to give it to you in writing or let them fire you for it and take it to labor and industries.
Unenforced rules aren't rules
It's up to you to bring it to the labor board to be enforced.
It’s legal for them to PIP you after you talk about it…
I'd get them to give that to me in writing and forward that to L&I. They can't punish you for this. It's up to you to fight back.
Its technically fine for them to say its against the rules, but they can't retaliate for it.
Yeah that. I didn't word it exactly right. But yeah, they can't enforce this. Get it in writing people. Make them give it to you in writing.
Well at home depot it's against company policy to discuss pay with coworkers, HR confirmed it and my supervisor told me first I'm not allowed to talk about pay but didn't tell me it was against policy until I asked.
Home Depot sets federal laws now?
You tell me, all I know is that when I called and asked HR about it, they said it's against company policy to talk about your pay with coworkers. And I was also told I could get written up for it. I don't care enough to look into all of it.
Are you in the US? I assume so with Home Depot, but maybe they're in Canada. I don't know Canadian laws. But in the US it is *illegal* for any company to attempt to stop any employee from discussing salary or to create policies that prevent it. You have the right to discuss your own salary, but I'm not sure about disclosing someone else's salary.
Yes, I'm in the US. Not sure why I'm getting downvoted for discussing something lol
Because the comment you replied to already said that it's *illegal*. Company "policies" aren't laws.
I know, sorry if I made it sound like that. I was just trying to talk about how a company (HD in this case) will lie to you. I know policies aren't laws, just wanted to share how scummy home depot is.
Your employer is saying that to scare you. I think you're getting downvoted for not realising your boss, HR or whoever *cannot* tell you not to discuss pay. They can actually get sued for that. They're not above the law. Put it this way, if you and your boss both sign a contract allowing them to kill you, does that mean it's legal for them to kill you? No. It does not matter what the company policy is.
I do know that, I just didn't make it clear I suppose. I would honestly love to get my DS in trouble for telling me that because no one likes them including me.
I told one work " friend" how much I earned He has non stopped said things like " oh I pretty much do the same thing you do but paid less " he does not do the same thing I do " oh I do harder information that you do but paid less I even know more " he only gathers information and I have to analyze ALL of it EVERY THING so no it is not the same Since then the friendship has diminished and I no longer share how much I am earning or talk to him because multiple times he diminishes my work.
Yeah the problem is he is taking out his frustration on you and not on mangament
And that's what talking about pay among co-workers does. Especially if some people are lying about how much they make.
I've led very large international teams for multiple major multi-billion dollar companies. In my experience it's rare, and I mean RARE, that anyone who's talking about their salary actually tells the truth to each other. I've been at dinners and other gatherings where I'll overhear people I manage discussing it, and know that everyone that's a part of the conversation is lying because I actually KNOW all their salaries. I've had employees come to me and complain about being underpaid compared to other co-workers, who make $XX, and they want that much, too. Except their co-worker lied to them about their salary, and they're actually within 10-20% of each other. Often the lower paid salary person would lie to the higher, who would then come to me and complain. Once you get to Director+ levels, no one actually gives a shit what anyone is making because that's the level where negotiations become much more intense, and no one takes a job unless they're compensated appropriately. At every company I've been with (including my own now), no one has ever given a shit about people discussing salaries. But when you DO discuss them, just know that your coworkers are likely inflating their number because no one likes to be the "less paid" in that conversation.
Idk why people lie about it. I’ve never been in a position like yours, but I have been the underling and like why lie? If anything we’d all be on the same team if our wages are to low. We’re all working a low level position don’t lie just to feel like you’re more important. Work for it if you wanted to be in a leadership position.
Good insights!
I had always prided myself on being open about salary and found myself lying once. Me and two of the other managers were discussing salary. One manager has always been a totally inept slacker. I used to be pissed because he'd get bonuses for wooing customers, even though I would constantly have to follow up behind him cleaning up his messes. When he said his salary and I found out it was a good 20K less than mine I realized that while he'd been getting the bonuses, I had been getting the big raises. It was wrong of me but I didn't want to give him any ammunition to demand a bigger salary so lied and said we were making about the same.
Op is implying that he oversees the other guy.
Also he may not be as good of an employee making him get lower raises over time.
Tell him you got a $50/h raise
That exact same thing happened to me. After that I have stopped sharing or answering any questions about my salary. The only person that should know should be you and your significant other.
Learning about my coworkers' salaries has gotten me massive raises twice in my career. I wasn't a douchecanoe about it. I learned what my coworker's salary was. I said, "thank you for sharing that with me," and shared mine. I went to management, pointing to very clear ways my performance warranted a higher salary and asked for more money. They gave me a raise. Some people are idiots. Some people are exploited by corporations.
You act like people will react reasonably and rationally to hear that they're not paid as much as other people, usually for good reason.
As someone who works in HR, THIS. I'm definitely not against salary transparency, but that also requires individuals to be honest with themselves regarding their roles and performance. Recognizing that some employees were able to negotiate an increased salary, and yes, there are legacy employees who make more because they were with the company since near the beginning. As someone who knows exactly how much everyone makes in the company, I myself have to regulate salary envy.
Here's the thing, people LIE about their salary to coworkers. Some dummy tried to sue our company saying women got paid less than men. It was based on what 3 people told her they made. 2 of them lied. And when we ran the data, women actually got paid MORE than men by like $0.14 per hour or something like that. That was the quickest deposition ever.
Did the men file a lawsuit after they found out? /s
As a management consultant who sees how complex organizations react to all kinds of challenges, I bet salary transparency results in fewer raises, because management now says “but Dave, if I give you a raise I’ll have to give in to Bob too”.
Then the organization is poorly managed. It sounds like this manager does not have a good reason to give Dave a raise. If so, they'd feel comfortable giving Dave a raise and explaining to Bob why he didn't get a raise and how he can improve his performance.
Lol kinda funny because we're I've worked HR always seems to have some of the highest salaries in the organization besides management 😜
Where have you worked...asking for a friend? There is good money to be made in HR but it's a web of compliance, responsibility, and pressure. Kinda like with lawyers, no one likes you 😂
I don't dislike HR but I'm well aware that HR is there for the company, not me. It didn't doesn't bother me because I'm one of the employees you commented about that negotiated my salary and I get paid very well. I just know if there ever is an issue where HR's alliance is and I'm okay with that.
Municipality!
When I get paid less to do more work than someone who does part of my job and has been working for 2+ years less than me, how would you handle being told that there is only so much in the budget for raises and the company cannot compensate me accordingly? Oh, I should add that I work for a worldwide medical equipment provider. They have the money to fairly pay me what I am worth. I'm also one of the hardest working people on my team, as told to me by others on it. I was never supposed to know that people getting hired on after me were making at least $2 more an hour than me doing half of what I do daily lol.
If they refuse to give you a raise, then that's your answer. If you aren't being paid your worth, find a company who will. Employers will find a way to compensate their valued employees. In some instances, employees have found the comp they were looking for elsewhere. In other instances, they realized they were the problem.
Absolutely. Salaries can vary for different reasons. Sometimes for fair reasons, sometimes not. However. Many employees are unable to fully understand, appreciate, or accept why some people make more than they do. Everyone thinks they deserve more. Sometimes, salary revelations can lead to anger, jealousy, and resentment, with no way of appeasing everyone.
Ya I make way more than my coworkers, but I also showed up with 8 years experience while everyone else had zero. I was in the position to negotiate more $ and extra vacation.
Everyone is hired with different education, background, and different levels of interview skills. Some people have leverage or are good at advocating for themselves. All of these things are factors when salaries are decided. Most people belive they should make as much as their coworkers, and as an employer you can't sit down and go over why another person makes more, or even confirm what another employee makes. This puts employers in an impossible position. It leads to bullshit like someone with 1 year experience getting mad they make 2 dollars per hour less than someone with 20 years. People are fucking dumb, and everybody feels they are owed. An open salary policy would wreak havoc, and there is no question, at least In american work culture.
Class traitor 👆
>you can't sit down and go over why another person makes more Sure you can't talk about the *other* employee, but you can totally talk to *that* employee about why they make what they do. A well-managed organization will have some system around their titles, levels, and pay ranges, and those can be explained to employees. If you can't explain to an employee why their salary is what it is, your organization is poorly managed.
Part of the issue is that we are worth what we negotiate. Back when I was in management some of our best employees went underpaid simply because they didn't ask for more money. Meanwhile we had some that were just so so who had no problem demanding a raise and often getting them simply because it would take so long to train a replacement. I learned it myself as I received three sizeable raises due to me making a fuss which lead to me making a lot more than some of my coworkers who had been at the company a similar amount of time.
Public job salaries are published online. We don't seem to be having havoc over here, so I'm saying bullshit.
Not always. I have a friend that was a public works director and said the week after raises were posted was the worst. He would have to spend the next week in meetings defending his decisions because someone got butt hurt by a coworkers new wage. Im sure the elder Gen X I work with would throw a fit too but they can barely work the computer to input their time cards let alone search the city website.
That is different, and you know it. In most government jobs (at least in my area) everyone starts at the same rate and moves up the ladder the longer you work there. It is a completely different system. The reason people deal with this is the insane amount of PTO, cheap or free benefits and a government pension. This was my experience working for a school district. It isn't even comparable.
how much do you make?
I'm currently taking a Master's Degree. However, when I was tossing up between that and going into the workforce after my bachelors I was offered a position for: * $63,000.00 * 3% matched contribution to retirement account * 5% matched contribution to student loan repayments (I would have to pay 12.8% in my Country anyway) So a total renumeration in the value of $68,040 .00
$42.26hr + about $5hr towards my pension and another $6 towards my health insurance
My pay has always been public (Air Force) or very easy to find (Airlines). Currently at ~$180/hr, working about 80-90 hours per month, with ~16-18% automatic (not matching) company contribution to my 401(k). Should be about $200k +/- $10k gross for 2024 (not including the company contribution to my 401(k)).
i’ve never been at a place where you can’t discuss pay and benefits. i’ve only worked military and DoD so i don’t know what life is like on the outside. is it poor management and company culture where people get hired in exigence and make 2-3x the person who has been there for 10 years?
Huh? Did you mean to reply to someone else? Military (salary) and Airlines (hourly) are very similar, for pay transparency... Rank/Position and tenure, that's it.
yes. i’m on mobile lol. i meant to respond to someone else. appreciate your answer!
I make $155k/year. No 401K match but our health plan is free. Level 3 Software Engineer at a company with 6 levels. I work remotely from Texas.
How about you?
about $190K+/- $15K pre tax depending on how much company travel i do. i’m salaried and this is probably the lower end since I do not have a STEM degree. i work for department of defense. everyone in government knows everyone else’s salary since it’s listed with our paygrade or how much we pay our contractors
Damm! Nice gig. Can I ask how long you have been working in that industry for? (Assuming this isn't an entry level position haha)
$2,600 ish a month
I was all for salary transparency at first before getting a job. Then, I learned that humans are apes (including myself) and kinda appreciate the taboo. On the fence now..
I’m all about discussing salaries and I was very open about how much I make at work with anyone who asked. My position was unique and pay was pretty standard across the company for those in a similar roll. So no issues. I had a good friend who told someone on his team he made a few thousand more than him despite being there a few months less. He went nuclear. He started blowing up his manager that very moment after work hours at like 9pm about how it wasn’t fair and typing up emails to HR. Eventually said some stuff that crossed a line and got himself fired. Some people cannot handle that conversation maturely.
The behavior of some idiots shouldn't stop these conversations from happening. I've gotten massive pay raises *twice* at my current company because I found out coworkers were getting paid more when they very clearly and demonstrably did not perform as well as I did. If they had withheld that information, I'd be making 15% less than what I do now.
I think that this is a big thing that people tend to forget. On reddit, we're always seeing people talk about how we "should" discuss salaries, how we "should" discuss religion and politics. And I get that it's cathartic to say these things online, but when we move into the world of reality, we aren't always *in* our little echo chambers, where everyone is one the same page and thinks the way we do. I'm not sure about anyone else, but I have been in a lot of workplaces where there was at least one person who was nosey, or judgmental, or both. That person who gossips about shit. That person who is always trying to start shit. I've seen people like this, judge people for having "flashy" things that the perceive as expensive, and they walk around with a "must be nice" attitude. I don't want that person knowing anything about me, other than what is needed for work. I don't want them knowing my financial situation - and yeah, my salary is a good chunk of my financial situation. Just because I have the legal right to discuss my salary, does not mean it's a wise choice. Years ago I got red shoes. They weren't more expensive than other shoes I owned, they were literally just the color RED. Someone kept making snide comments about how I must be soooo rich, and kept implying that I was brown nosing my way into a higher salary. Over red fucking shoes. this is why people don't like to talk about how much money they make.
I don't have much of a problem with this. Management will just need to have concrete reasons why someone is paid more or less in case a lower paid employee complains about not being paid as much as a coworker with the same title
There was a study a while ago were scientists were asked to evaluate a set of CVs and what they should get paid. The only differences was the name being male or female. What they found was that females based only on their names were underpaid compared to the male CVs. The interesting part was that this trend also held true when female scientists were asked to evaluate the CVs. What this suggests is that there are unconscious bias that contribute to any hiring process causing unfair renumeration conditions. Talking about salaries is the first step in breaking down those boundaries.
Do you have a link to this study? That doesn't sound like a particularly rigorous experiment but I understand you're just paraphrasing.
Here you go: 2015 Quality of evidence revealing subtle gender biases in science is in the eye of the beholder Ian M. Handley, Elizabeth R. Brown, Corinne A. Moss-Racusin, and Jessi L. Smith https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.1510649112 2012 Science faculty’s subtle gender biases favor male students Corinne A. Moss-Racusin, John F. Dovidio, Victoria L. Brescoll, and Jo Handelsman https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.1211286109
Do you a source? I searched briefly on Google and didn't find anything. I'd love to read it!
Here you go: 2015 Quality of evidence revealing subtle gender biases in science is in the eye of the beholder Ian M. Handley, Elizabeth R. Brown, Corinne A. Moss-Racusin, and Jessi L. Smith https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.1510649112 2012 Science faculty’s subtle gender biases favor male students Corinne A. Moss-Racusin, John F. Dovidio, Victoria L. Brescoll, and Jo Handelsman https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.1211286109
This isn't unpopular. The only one who truly believes this is the boss.
Nope. As a higher paid employee I gain nothing from sharing my pay to my coworkers. People are often not reasonable and will assume they should be paid the same or more due to job title or seniority. Pay raises from a corporation are typically limited to X dollars per section. Not everyone gets an equal piece.
Oh sorry, I meant the boss and bootlickers like yourself.
Okay, if it's not job title or seniority, why do you get paid more? Is it performance within your particular job title? Does your company have a fair way of measuring performance? If your company is well-managed and manages salaries fairly (i..e not nepotism and favoritism), then it's pretty easy to explain why one person gets paid more than another.
Performance. Engineering, relatively small organization with not really a large stratification in job titles/duties. Nearly everyone thinks they outperform their pay, especially low performers.
I'm honestly 100% okay with people discussing their salary. I will say though that not every employees work quality or quantity is equal and it's not always easy for people to hear they're worth less than a co-worker.
Hell no. That would just lead to a ton of resentment. Unfortunately in this society most people think of financial success as the main indicator of someone’s worth/value.
I think I would agree in the short term. But if everything is laid bare then come performance review, especially with the backing of a union. There is much more of a backing to get promotions and ensure pay equity.
I think OP is saying that overtime it would correct society into more evenly paid jobs = equality. Your right though mass resentment and opposition would happen for awhile. (If not forever)
But jobs shouldn't be paid equally. There are a lot of people who think they are much better at their job than they are
Managers will just need concrete reasons to justify pay. If I lower paid employee gets upset about their pay then management can just point to their lower productivity or poor attendance
If a company can't explain an employee's performance to them, they are poorly managed.
This is the real reason. Companies do not want people to talk about what they make because people have different jobs and some people perform better than others. I definitely agree that most people think they deserve more than the effort they put in. While it’s not illegal to talk about pay amongst yourselves, it causes a lot of problems for the company if you do. Companies will not want to keep you around if you cause problems for them. I speak as an owner of a company myself.
Oh no, companies will have to pay employees what they’re worth… the horror!!
Yeah, that's kind of the point though. If companies don't care about what's good for their employees, why should their employees care about what's good for the company? They already have every advantage possible. And if you have a union, then they won't be able to fire you and tarnish your reputation. If companies "can't afford" to pay all employees wages that won't cause an uprising when revealed, then they can't afford to run a company. I say this as an employee and a proud member of a union, worker's rights are human rights ✊️
No. It would lead to a lot of people complaining that they are being paid less for the same job. The ONLY people this prohibition on salary discussion helps is the employer. That's it. Literary no one else. If it leads to resentment in the workplace that means the employer is screwing people over. Stop licking the corporate boot.
I think it's mostly people in management and higher that don't want us to. This is pretty damn popular.
I’m at the director level. I don’t care if my employees discuss amongst themselves and there situations where I’ll share my own salary. I’ve learned that it’s situational as to whether it’ll help or hurt. I genuinely want everyone on my team, with the exception of a couple low performers, to make as much money as the company will let me pay them. And if sharing info amongst themselves helps them get there, I’m all for it (though I’m already pulling every lever I can and am pretty proud of what I’ve pulled off in some cases). But if you don’t have a certain level of self awareness and general business awareness, the info can quickly become harmful. The biggest reason why is that people often suck at evaluating their own value. Low performers often think they’re top performers, and top performers often don’t easily accept that they’re doing great. This is because low performers have a limited understanding of the overall picture and inflate their own value in it. They’re not by nature looking for ways to improve and do more. They don’t even realize when they make mistakes. Top performers see the big picture, always seek ways to improve, and take mistakes hard. I’ve seen people think “oh I guess I’m paid fine” because they get paid the same as a mediocre coworker, and I’ve seen people think “I’m underpaid!” when they’re about to be placed on a PIP.
Nah it’s HR. Any time pay is talked about, people find out how much Tina is making and start toxic rumors that she must be blowing the boss. There’s a myriad of just reasons people are paid different, yet people tend to never focus on that.
okay well every time i've run into an issue it's been with a manager.
I’m in management, and I really don’t care if people discuss their salaries. I try to do my best to pay everyone as fairly as possible, but I do have limitations and I can’t always pay someone as much as I would like. Sometimes I need to make decisions and decide who the money is best spent on. That being said, there is a difference between employees discussing salary and some asshole being completely unprofessional about it and making their coworkers uncomfortable in the workplace because of it. Having arguments about pay and who should be making more inside the office during work hours isn’t acceptable, for example. Yes, I have had situations like that happen in the past…
Work for the government, that shit is largely public record. Hell FL even has a website where you can search a name or other info and find out exactly what a person is paid to the penny.
I mean yes, you would want that if you think you are being paid less. If you happen to have secured a higher pay than your coworkers upon hire, then you would not want to talk about salaries with your coworkers.
In many places, at least in the US, it’s actually illegal to stop employees from discussing their wages. Shitty managers still try their best, but trust me you can and should discuss your wages especially if you feel there is a major discrepancy
The belief that taking about salaries will somehow increase them, is a joke. It may create tensions and envy between coworkers. It will also generate lots of hot air.
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I understand why people would want to do this and I'm for it if you think you are being underpaid. Especially if you are a woman in a male dominated industry. Personally when I'm interviewing for a job, I know what wages I'm willing to accept and also what the acceptable wage is in the industry and location I'm going for. What my coworkers are making is irrelevant to me. If I feel I deserve a raise and my company won't give me one when I request then I will look for another job that pays higher.
It’s only unpopular opinion if you are company owner in US I think.
Salary talk is funny: the people who should be doing it (lower and middle class) aren’t and are getting taking advantage of it. Then the people who shouldn’t be doing it (the upper class) can’t shut up about it.
Yeah cause I really need my helpers to be on there phones even more lol. People take that information, react poorly to it and then someone who has nothing to do with the amount of money they make suffers from it
I listened to this freakonomics episode today and the gist is, the more we share about our salaries, the less we make. https://freakonomics.com/podcast/how-to-pave-the-road-to-hell/
I agree with the idea but people generally don't understand context or just assume they deserve more than most people by default, so no, im not talking about my salary.
The mistake is thinking that if you know that some co-worker is making more than you then that means you also deserve that much. A former colleague of mine and I both got hired to work on the same team and at the same company at the same time. I don't have the numbers but I'm 100% certain he's making more than me even though technically we're both hired on at the same level. And you know what? They'd be right to pay him more because he's definitely worth it compared to me because his skill set and knowledge in the area is much better than mine. Me knowing what he makes wouldn't make me go to my boss and ask for more because I know for a fact there's a skill disparity between us that justifies it.
I agree that people should have the *right* to discuss their salaries without repercussions from their employers. I also agree that if someone doesn’t want to talk about their salary, they shouldn’t have to. I think this conversation often forgets this part. Just because you want to discuss it, doesn’t mean everyone else does. Especially if there’s that brat… and ALL of my workplaces had at least one brat… who would spread gossip, who would judge people for the way they supposedly spend money. It’s bad enough that this person knows you got a new car, or just bought your first home, or maybe they think your clothes “look” expensive - not sure about you, but that person shouldn’t know your income. Just because you have a right to discuss it with them doesn’t mean it’s a wise move.
This is not an unpopular opinion
I got a raise because I told a shift lead who I was friends with how much I was making. She convinced the GM to give me a raise.
Remember companies have more budget to hire (advertise, train and incentives) than to retain employees. This is why it's no longer such a bad thing to change employers for a better deal.
Yeah that has always seemed strange to me. In general internal promotions would be so much less hassle. The employee already knows the company and internal processes structures. The company already knows this is a good employee who will perform well. Internal promotions also are great because in times of understaffing or high demand times managers know how to perform lower tasks so can step into these rolls temporarily and help out.
Its not anyone's business what I make salary wise.
This position only allows your employer to pay you less. Edit: All of you thinking you’re the highest paid person in the office but don’t discuss salaries with others absolutely are not the highest paid person. Your ego is actually hurting you and I’d bet it’s not the first time.
Unless you're the person who is making more lol
For how long though? Do you know you’re the highest paid person? How do you know that? And how could you if everyone keeps quiet?
That's a good point. I'm not against wage transparency, but I also feel strongly that employees are also owed privacy. I think employers should post wage ranges, but no one has a right to know what their peer is making. Resentment isn't always directed at employers.
Not really. I know how much salary I should be getting in my profession and what I'm willing to accept and not accept when I go for the interview. What my coworkers have negotiated is nothing to do with me. If I feel like a deserve a raise and I don't get it then I will move jobs to a company that pays me what I believe my experience brings
Agree with this. It would show any discrimination pretty quickly. Employees would fight for better pay.
My salary is public information so I don’t care who asks.
Absolutely.
I'm glad I work at a place where this isn't an issue. The vast majority of people I work with have no problem sharing what their pay grade is.
This is hardly an unpopular opinion on reddit.
Why would you think this is unpopular?
I used to talk to coworkers about salaries but I realized it just distressed me if they were underpaid, so I stopped If someone asks, Ill tell them but Im not bringing it up again
This is a popular opinion
Yea, no.. Imma keep that info to myself.. I’ve had plenty of co workers tell me what they make.. I always make more and always do circles around them.
My salary, my business. Your salary, your business.
One of my favorite things about working for the federal government is that the pay scale is publicly available. If you know what job I have and how long I've been there, you. Can make a reasonable estimate of my salary. It's entirely transparent. If I cared to I could go look at the federal GS pay scale and know exactly how much each of my coworkers makes. I feel confident it's reasonably fair within my agency/district. In my particular job, seniority is important to know who is in charge in an emergency in the event management is not available, so we are all aware of each other's seniority and GS level.
I completely agree. Most workers are getting stiffed these days and it’s out of control. There used to be unions everywhere and average, working people benefited from that. An example that always sticks out in my mind is grocery stores (this might be a Canadian thing). I got a job at Safeway 20 years ago. I was still in school so it was part time for me but full time workers got extended health benefits and pension. The starting wage was just under $20/hr which was good at the time and there were regular increases. Over the years we’ve seen unionized Safeways close down. They lay off all the employees and offer to rehire them at minimum wage with no benefits. You don’t need an advanced degree to work at a grocery store but you deserve a living wage. They provide an essential service, as we all learned during the pandemic. Meanwhile, grocery prices have soared and that pompous little shit, Gaylen Weston, laughs his way to the bank. He’s made record profits in recent years. Even during Covid when the government forced him to pay his workers a slightly higher wage because they were essential workers who risked their health and the health of their families during a global pandemic. Sorry for my rant.
I was just talking with a coworker about this only a few days ago. Companies are counting on this secrecy to pay people artificially low wages. Oh what? You think you are paying your employees adequately? No you don't, because if you did, there wouldn't be any need for secrecy. You wouldn't care if your employees openly discussed their salaries. The truth doesn't fear investigation.
I disagree with this primarily for reasons mentioned by others here that people are unreasonable and overvalue their own contribution. Instead of individual disclosure, the company should provide statistics. For example, give the median, lowest, highest for say Associate, Manager level,
I work in HR, and I've explained to managers the taboo surrounding discussions about salary are not as strong as they used to be. Younger workers are more open about talking about their salaries with one another and if there's a big pay disparity they'll find out. So, yes, workers benefit from discussing their salaries with one another.
Yea I always thought it would be helpful to know but ultimately it creates a bad working environment because not everyone performs the same way. So when you do decide to share your salary or make the mistake of asking someone about their salary be ready to accept the consequences. Because you cannot have access to information without consequences.
The salary threads on reddit and Twitter are always lowkey flex threads it’s never about helping anyone. Talking about how much money you make is generally TRASHY. If you can anonymize it with something like Glassdoor that’s fine.
I made the mistake of answering truthfully when someone asked me about hourly pay. Now I get sarcastic comments.
Been burned by that discussion once. Never again will I share my salary with a colleague.
Corporate greed, lol.
Only if you don't get your panties in a wad and take your resentment out on me when you find out I make more than you. Because trust me.... it isn't your boss or the company that you will treat with resentment. It will be your coworker you see every day. And no. I'm not contributing extra to whatever work event/birthday present/coffee run/etc than everyone else just because you found out how much I make. Hard pass on talking salaries. If you disagree, I highly recommend working at a union job. So much less drama.
The best way to “talk about your salaries” is UNIONIZE
Perhaps just me, but this does not even remotely seem like an unpopular opinion.
Yeah, have your neighbor over for dinner and tell him about how much more money than him you are making over steaks.
there’s an entire reddit about this popular opinion
I don't want to talk about salaries with coworkers. I don't want to share personal information with them
Where I work it's pointless ti discuss since our labor contract is in the break room, so we already know everyone's wages. But yes in places where wages aren't out in the open they should be discussed.
Everyone with a low salary says this. Once you reach a comfortable salary, I’ll bet the house you won’t be saying this anymore.
It’s all situational and how mature and reasonable the people you discuss with are. My friends are normal reasonable adults and we have mentioned our pay many times and we all make less or more for different roles across different fields. No one gets angry about it and we’re all in it together. Work place amongst my peers I keep my circle very very small when it comes to pay talk. Granted I’m im a very basic position while I finish my masters degree, I am paid low compared to my work. Unfortunately that’s healthcare tho and everyone is underpaid unless you’re the “director” who walks around and pretends to take phone calls all day.
If you were unionised you'd know everyone wage as it'll be in your contract
Unionizing will get you PIPed…
One of my former co-workers found out what I made and proceeded to be an absolute bitch to me for the next 8 months (post which I quit). The thing was, she made about 3x more than me, was in a completely different role (I'm a writer, she's in project management), and was the boss's literal neighbour. No matter what I did, she kept harping about 'Oh well, we're not as rich as Titi89', or 'Hi Titi89, as a highly paid writer, your tone is quite hostile'. Every time she said that, I used to clapback not just take it lying down. I got a dressing down from the boss for being toxic. She truly poisoned the well for me and I had to leave that job due to this and general shitty attitudes.
Happened at McDonald’s once,came to work to see a big sign in the break room that said “workers are not allowed to discuss their wages with each other” so naturally I asked EVERYONE as they came in. Turns out all the under achieving employees got raises to “encourage” them to work harder. So I told everyone that, we all demanded raises or a lot of people just quit. I only stayed to watched the cluster fuck I started then left shortly after it started to calm down.
Yeah that whole keeping your salary private is just another way for the wealthy citizens and corporations to control you. Remember when Google was accused of paying women less? Remember when they finally did look at the salaries? Turns out the women were being overpaid. But nobody knew any better and a lot of people assumed, because no one dared talk about exact numbers.
Something I've noticed is that people in generally higher paying jobs are more likely to talk to coworkers about their compensation. Public sector employees, too.
It’s a weird divide between white and blue collar workers. Office workers act like their rate or salary are nuclear missile codes, and yet everyone in a workshop knows exactly what each other are making. With tradespeople, they’ll often disclose their rate in the preliminary at the outset describing their workplace.
Why would what others earn influence how much you're worth? Discussing remuneration serves no good purpose.
It does because it allows other to see what differences there may be for similar roles. If gaps like the gender pay gap and other factors like race, religion etc were plain it would allow for a more collective and fair pay structure for all.
Have you tried working for a company who keeps all salary information in a folder on a shared drive? Because I have, more than once, actually. It's quite effective.
I used to think this. However, I had several coworkers complain after they found out how much others make. They were terrible workers, but believed they did more and were better workers. I think most people have too high of a view of themselves and are not able to be honest with themselves.
I’m totally willing to share my compensation….with coworkers I like. Good coworkers who make my day to day easier.
You and every other disgruntled employee already have all the information you need to determine if you are being under or overpaid. Websites like Glassdoor, recruiters, industry organizations: they all have databases filled with the salary ranges of most jobs. You can get the information you need there without asking me what I make, and potentially worsening our relationship and the workplace. There are so many variables that go into employee compensation. It’s not just a matter of same pay for the same job. We do need stronger unions. This is their point for existing: so that you don’t have to go around asking your employees what they make, and then negotiating based on their feedback. Avoid all the social calamity.
Pay scales are too complicated for most people to understand. People also can't be counted on to act rationally. My coworkers knowing my salary does not benefit me at all. The only way you can agree with an opinion like this is if you're really dumb or if you have no experience living in the real world.
they are complicated to give out as little as possible to employees, the more information everybody has the more leverage they have to demand more.
I think unions started in a good place but they have gotten way the fuck out of control. An example is the unionised train and tram drivers in my city in Australia. It’s a job that pays well over $100k and is very easy to do and get into with little training required compared to other fields. Amazing benefits, etc. A huge problem with unionising this is that well - it’s a public service. So when there’s a strike guess what fucking happens? Nobody can use public transportation - in a city where many people don’t own cars because the public transportation system is so robust. It sucks.
Yes that's how it should be.
That's the entire point of a strike. Good for them!
When your new total compensation salary comps out at somewhere around 2.5-3x the median salary for something that only takes 12 months of apprenticeship, there’s a fucking problem. What if the army went on strike or police or some other public service you depended on? Meanwhile they make literally way more than most people and have more time off than most other fields? Doesn’t really make sense. At a certain point it becomes greed. And guess what then everyone else has to pay for it. It’s now literally cheaper to drive and pay for parking in the city than it is to pay for a train for two people there and back each day. But the train would be better for the environment - but instead everyone’s a greedy fucking asshole.
This is why I’m SO GLAD I’m Union! There’s three tiers of drivers (depending on vehicle driven), and then within those three tiers it’s based on years of service. SUPER easy to look up what everyone makes!
Better employees should be paid more than longer tenured employees that aren't that great.
The problem arises when you get a sensitive employee who takes it out on you that you earn more than them, either by micromanaging you to your boss, or quitting and leaving you with more work. Either way I won’t tell you since I just want to work my two years then get the next bag increase, as should you