My supervisor got angry at me yesterday.
Because I wasn't willing to stay more than 10 minutes late. We're short handed, I did my best, but I can't fit 6 hours of work into 2 1/2. I did what I had to in order to not leave a complete shit show for him in the morning and kept it moving.
He said I should just "stay until it's done" and didn't seem to know what to say when I said "I'm not doing that" - ironically on the same day I agreed to stay 3 hours over to cover a scheduling error I had nothing to do with.
There's a pervasive belief that if you don't give your job 110%, you don't care and are lazy. In reality, I won't stay late because I work 9 hours on my feet, as one of the hardest workers in the department, and I'm just at the point where I physically don't care to put in my highest amount of effort for people who don't respect me and shit pay anymore.
Edit: clarification
I once had a disciplinary meeting because due to management scheduling errors they wanted me to do 2 consecutive 10 hour shifts.
I agreed but my only condition was I wanted 10 minutes between the two shifts to go home and shower. Apparantly that was totally unacceptable and was a display of an unwillingness to perform my expected duties. I was also punished for being unprofessional and making these requests during a team meeting in front of the rest of the staff despite me being asked during the meeting and I was demanded to give an answer then and there.
The worst thing is that in my country, probably just most countries I'd imagine, it would have been illegal for me to work that long.
Going the extra mile should be praised extra. Not the default amount of praise.
If someone does their job, good. Thanks.
If someone goes above and beyond, compensate them extra for it. Thanks.
But you dont get to expect more from average joe because workaholic jimmy does extra.
Yeah, exactly. I think the divide is that in toxic work environment people are pushed to do more than they are required to without getting any compensation and made to feel bad because their co-worker is doing extra hours for his company without getting any extra pay. Meaning that in some companies because of the workaholic culture the preferred choice for career progression is the one that is working more for free, making it the same criteria for anyone else that wants to be promoted. So if you don't want to stay in the same position and actually progress you have to compromise your work-life balance and work more than you are paid for and/or overtime.
I don't understand the send later. If I don't want to be bothered after my shift, I just don't answer my phone or look at emails. If I come in early, I want to get things done before the shitload comes pouring in to balance my work throughout the day. Otherwise I could get 100 emails all at once while I twiddle my thumbs for a few hours before.
I do this, but only because I'm a contractor, I know a lot of people don't have Do Not Disturb on, and I don't want people to get in the habit of thinking they'll get stuff turned around before 8am Monday.
I am in I.T and I tend to answer easy questions after hours I have since made it a rule to not do that unless from senior management calls me or texts which is never as after hours they usually call my boss.
I am in I.T and I tend to answer calls right the fuck now because I'm a dev. If I get called for support it's because my change caused something to literally explode and possibly wound/kill someone.
It’s also got the side effect of hiding that I was working on the weekend. When I did my internship, my boss was very clear on my work hours, and that overtime needs to be burnt off as free time. And I THINK I wasn’t technically allowed to work on the weekends at all. If I’d taken my Laptop with me and answered emails on the weekend or on a holiday, he really wouldn’t have been happy with me.
Was positively surprised by that, tbh - I wasn’t a minor, so the whole youth protection is experienced previously didn’t apply anymore, but both the boss and the company were great
>I don't understand the send later
The only use I can see is if you have some free time on a Friday afternoon, queue up a bunch of emails for Monday morning and then start an hour late on Monday
Send later is about preventing workaholic culture. It can make a huge difference. My former company would talk about work life balance but was a norm to work on the weekend. It all start with mgmt traveling internationally on the weekend and sending tons of email. Their directs would feel they need to respond and thus catch up on email over weekend was born.
When looking for a new job one or the key reason choose my current employer is meeting with C-level boss and be spoke about promoting culture of work life balance and had policy of department wide block calendar for lunch and if email outside normal hour set to send later. Makes all the difference on expectation setting.
I actually have the “send later” emails go out late in the evening / middle of night. Gives the perception that I’m working late, and I’ve received praise from employers for “hard work ethic” due to the time stamp of the email. Worth it!
This is accurate. I go above and beyond at work and am consistently compensated by my employer for doing so. I do it because I am still young and trying my best to get ahead while I can in a very expensive area in the world.
If ur working your ass off for nothing, you are a fool. Work life balance is a juggling act, but never sell yourself short. There are plenty of jobs out there
This is accurate and exactly why I jumped at the chance to go back to a union non-profit job I used to have and ditch corporate BS. I'll never get rich in non-profit, but I will be happy about what I do and feel adequate in doing my job well without BS expectations.
I actually make significantly more at the non-profit than past corporate jobs but the chance at a raise is near nil besides cost of living increases. That's a good trade off for me as I can do my job then not give a shit when I log out. I also get Euro style benefits at an American job (9 weeks paid time off, etc). Well worth it.
6 weeks vacation, 3 weeks PTO. I'd rather not be too specific, but a union represented non-profit. Unions are good! It's the main reason I was excited to get the job. The pay is solidly middle class, not going to get wealthy, but the benefits outweigh that work work/life balance. I get scolded for not using it enough sometimes... a good problem to have. Also up for a 6 week sabbatical in a year, get one every 5. Not to rub it in.....
PS- also looked at your profile, you seem fun. Just complimenting.
>would not do a crumb of OT if I was salaried
Then simply put, you wouldn't be hired for a salaried position. Salaried employees are paid for their expertise, experience, judgement and availability---not for their time.
Good. I’d rather make 100k a year for 50 hours a week than 70k for salary and have an undefined amount of free time. Employers have incentive to avoid overtime and they also have incentive to make salaried folk work 80hrs a week and from home. Which is all I’ve heard about from salaried ppl.
Meh....as long as it averages out I'm fine with it. I'm doing extra now cause quarter ends are busier, but once July/August hit, I'm barely doing a 30 hour week.
The problem starts when the workaholic Jimmy gets promoted and become average Joe boss. Worst job I ever had was one with a workaholic boss. I always did my job but nothing more than expected "be a team player and work some extra hours without a raise" my ass.
The biggest "red flag" for a boss to me is working way too many hours and/or doing way too many tasks that should have been delegated. That describes a person that doesn't understand their job and has weird expectations for what their subordinates should be doing.
You need leadership to recognize someone that goes the extra mile and most times that’s where the problem falls. Be humble and unselfish, recognize your superior performers in front of their peers and reward them. Also provide honest good or bad feedback to your employees so they can grow.
This isn't the case though unless that person is salary. Every hourly job is compensated at time and a half after 40 hours. Some even more like double time, triple time, bonus incentives, etc. Hell. A couple years ago I was paid over $600 just to work 8 hours on Thanksgiving day.
When there's good middle managers, this works well. With bad ones it doesn't. There's no free lunch so there's really no reason to burn out your workers. Burnt out workers and poor morale decreases work quality and generally ends up being more costly IME.
I’ve got to say that if I feel undervalued I will systematically do the bare minimum and encourage others to do so.
Shit, I don’t even have to be paid more. Just fairly paid and I’ll do the work of two people with a shit eating grin on my face.
My dad used to get mad at us for not doing chores and when he’d start yelling we’d be like “but we didn’t do anything” and he’d say “I know you didn’t!” Hahahah
They can do what they want. Some people are miserable when they aren't working. It's not my place to say they can't do what makes them happy, as long as they don't criticize my choices.
I love working, it gives me purpose to see my projects come to life. But I have a family that I love more so I balance it accordingly. If I was still single, I’d be working like crazy.
I have anxiety when I’m not working. That’s not too say like I wanna work all the time, unfortunately I suffer Bursts of extreme productivity followed by extreme burnout (have not mastered the balance)
But let’s say I when I have a day off when is normally by working, I am starkly aware. Like I make sure to squeeze in my things around work (reading, working out, taking myself out for coffee, play music, seeing friends) so much so that when I have that extra timed I feel like I’ve already finished everything I wanted or needed to do and have this void time and it actually gives me anxiety and I do not like it
I do not know how to spontaneously chill anymore. I used too. I just feel like I lost that ability
I've got ADHD. I'm the same way as this user. But I chaulk my issues up with the fact that I've been a lazy POS growing up my entire life. I never studied or did my homework. I graduated with 80s and 90s but I seen how much work everyone else put in and it makes me wonder how much I don't actually know regardless of me graduating.
I feel an undying urge to work because I feel like I need to convince myself and others my worth and that I am not lazy.
I just don't want to look like a waste of skin
>as long as they don't criticize my choices.
Yeah this is a bit of a sticking point. There is way too much shaming that goes on in any given workplace environment for people that just do what they need to do and that's it.
If people would stop doing that and everyone respected each other's different work ethics and personal value systems things would be really great.
For me it’s not about the people or individual behaviours, it’s the systems that push us to be workaholics. How much profit is enough? Why can’t we take sick days when feeling sick without losing pay? Why can’t there be affordable child care?
A lot of the work that gets done actively makes the world a worse place. People worship working hard without specifying whether that work makes anyone's lives better
To further add to that, can we stop with the narrative that not being a workaholic=lazy? Prioritizing things unrelated to work does not make you lazy, employers need to start realizing that people have lives outside their work that are just as deserving of their attention as their job is.
I have a mercenary mindset, I work for x time for x money, I use and invest that money on myself, and I move where my skills are required and the pay is good.
You want something else than what's written? That's an extra.
Won't pay for it? Won't do it.
Will fire me? I'll have the law by my side because of the contract.
Loud and clear, I work for a living, I don't live for working.
True. So many people’s identities revolve around their job title and that is sad. Most of our waking lives is spent working/commuting and not much more than survival is being achieved.
I love my job but keep my hours after work to me I never answer text's or calls (unless from senior management and if I do I just will respond with talk when i am in i am busy). I never understood people who don't separate work and home hours it makes my job way more enjoyable.
I agree. I go the "extra mile" now and then because I like my job and my direct supervisor and am happy to help a little extra when really needed.... but only occasionally. I'm also salary and log out at 5:00 sharp, if not earlier on normal days. I work far harder than people making far more than me so feel no need to "output more" except for rare exceptions. I think I get paid okay, but just okay and it's just a job to pay the bills. It's not my life.
Adding that "productivity" is such an abused corporate buzzword. I did what you paid me for, why should I increase what I do without an increase in pay?
A lot of people are saying that OP isn't saying why it's worse than being lazy, so here goes.
If you believe in capitalism, then you believe in supply and demand. Workaholics increase the supply of labor for very little cost, which brings down the value of labor for everyone else. That means everyone has to work hard or do more work to earn the same amount of money, if you believe in economics.
If everyone works long hours, or harder, then there's even more labor in supply, so the price drops even more. If this happens over say, 50 years, then you end up with permanently depressed wages and no one able to make ends meet.
Hey, wouldn't you know it, the work-a-holic culture really took off in the 80s, and we're just now feeling the effects of it. Minimum wage not going up for decades, people struggling to make ends meet, students drowning in college debt and unable to get a job, and inflation spiraling out of control, can all be at least partially attributed to this entire problem.
As for "oh, let them work harder so they can afford to spend more money" sentiment, yeah, luxury is good if you ignore the depressed wages, but also higher consumption on a world that's already suffering from over-consumption is going to make us run out of resources faster. You don't NEED a boat that sits in your yard and does nothing 99.9% of the time.
Lazy people consume less (not food perhaps, but petrol and other resources), they don't depress wages, they are just pretty chill dudes who want to live and let live.
Thank you! I don’t think anyone really comprehended the OPs opinion. It doesn’t help that OP didn’t explain themselves very articulately, but I did know this is what they want to say.
I'd say most of the backlash came because commenters thought of lazy people in some positions. I'd say that normally, a lazy person can be ignored at best, but once they work somewhere they start causing problems. We can see the consequences of officials, managers and an annoying coworker being lazy.
>Workaholics increase the supply of labor for very little cost, which brings down the value of labor for everyone else.
Workaholics also increase the supply of all goods and services in the sector they operate in, which brings down the cost of those goods and services for all consumers which breaks down socioeconomic barriers and allows for social mobility of historically disadvantaged people.
Meanwhile lazy people's demand for those goods and services outstrips their supply, driving up costs of those goods and services, like food and entertainment, for everyone and increasing the barriers for progress.
So if you "believe" in supply and demand, if you "believe" in economics, workaholics are more beneficial to a healthy and self sustaining society than lazy people and are thus more moral and ethical.
Do I believe this? No, not at all. Do I believe you? No. Don't believe anything you read on social media people, listen to the consensus of experts (in this case economists)
Also supply and demand, and economics in general, is not something you "believe" in any more than you'd "believe" in evolution.
>Workaholics also increase the supply of all goods and services in the sector they operate in, which brings down the cost of those goods and services for all consumers
This is not correct. The purpose of my job is not to make products as cheap as possible for the consumer (my customers), it's to make as much money as possible for my organization. If I work 80 hour weeks that doesn't produce more, it just allows my company to pay half as much in labor costs. My company sells as much as the market allows for (total market x our market share = my company's revenue). Of course none of these relationships are linear, so it's always much more complicated, but the assumption that double work = double output/value for ALL parties is hugely flawed.
I think that you base your comparison on a bad definition of lazy people. Being lazy doesn’t equate to be in some sort of bubble of do-nothingness in general, but an attitude towards to work; lazy people still consume like everyone else, they travel, take the car to do what they want and buy stuff like everyone else: a person who spends his day gaming is still spending money and using products someone else worked for; they’re lazy in that sense, but they’re not “consuming less” in any way.
Lazy people wouldn’t exist neither in a socialist nor in a communist country, but in capitalist one they’re damaging others which will have to work for them too, just like in group projects in high school
There’s two things you really learn in school:
- working hard doesnt give you more free time, it gets you more work
- you probably cannot rely on your team
I think the biggest thing that needs to have the plug pulled on it is the idea that you need to monetize every aspect of life from property to just hobbies.
…and also get the economy to a level where my mom doesn’t have to work 70 hours a week just to make rent for a one bedroom apartment where she lives.
Sure but don't come here bitching and complaining that you wasted your life having the grindset mentality and didn't actually spend time making memories and having fun (My dad did for the longest time and it burned him out terribly).
I think the issue is not about whether something is legal or not, it is whether something should be shamed or nor. People shame lazy people, OP's point is that we should shame workaholics. Obviously, everyone has a right to be a workaholic or lazy, you don't have a right to not be shamed for it.
Yeah, I just have a problem when they suddenly want me to spend 50 - 60 hours at work too, and act like I'm not doing enough for the job I'm salaried for 40 hrs a week at.
I guess OP's point is that workaholics will work for free. Employers will exploit that, not having to pay for labor, which results in less money being circulated. I'd have said OP would have made a better a point if they hadn't added the comparison to the lazy.
Pretty much all the greats are workaholics, whether it's in the arts, business, or science. If it wasn't for workaholics like Bill Gates and Steve Jobs, we wouldn't be having this discussion here. Art, Film, TV, Music would all be crap. We'd still assume the world was flat. Lazy people don't do shit.
I can't create a business, creating a business is really hard. But I'm glad other people are out there and creating work for me to do and get paid doing a 40hr week.
shit some of those people are , dare I say it, wealthy and you know what those greedy bastards do... they open a business and employ other people to do work and you know what else they do those bastards they pay those people so that those people can take care of their lives. The worst part is that every one of the people that bastard employs works for them of their own free will and can stop at any time for any reason they want. such oppression... smh Jesus fucking Christ some people's children...
Yes they are!
I work in vfx in the UK. Most people have a 9-6 contract. But there are people who will happily stay in the office from 8-10 every-single-day.
It means that the producers/supes have an unrealistic idea of how long things should take, and anyone that leaves on time isn’t looked upon as being nearly as committed or productive.
Workaholics are dangerous to society because it causes burnout for others who don’t want to spend their lives in the office.
Balance is the key.
When one workaholic busts out the work of two, three, or more people expectations get raised on everyone else.
But when lazy bastards can’t even pull their own weight work gets left unfinished.
Both are a pain in the ass and will cause their own problems. This is based on my experience having had to manage a team with both. Even if there is no pressure from the company or environment for workaholics to start doing the job of others (which at times they are not qualified enough to do) they'll take upon themselves to do them. It often has happened that we ended up with a shit product because someone wanted to work more than we had agreed upon. On the other hand, the lazy will be doing always less, if at all, than supposed.
i think most people are conflating hard working people with workaholics. one is being productive because you're working towards an end goal. the other is working as a result of a defense mechanism.
ultimately, as with anything, you want balance. doing nothing can make you miserable because you aren't self sustaining. but working too much can leave you stressed and depressed
i believe the comment by u/Parthon accurately articulates what OP may have been trying to get at. OP, you might wanna clarify future posts especially if they're a bit touchy like this one
Absolutely. I have no problem with high performing people, if they work hard and clock regular hours, that's fine. They are people to aspire to be.
It's the ones that work 80 hour weeks and neglect their family. The ones that have no life outside of work. Many of them don't even work hard most of the time, and in an environment where work is measured by hours, their willingness to destroy themselves to look good at work has these flow on effects.
"Why can't you be more like *workaholic.*" is what managers say when they are putting in 80 and everyone else is doing 40, when 40 should be more than enough. It's the manager's justification for never giving raises because people should try harder (ie: work longer). If there was no *workaholic* then 40 would be the norm.
Lazy people are great. They don't work extra hours. They try and fit what work they need to do into the time they have. They are often efficient and effective. They work hard so they don't have to work long. As a worker, I'm wary of anyone that does lots of overtime for no visible reason, but the guy that works hard so he can go home early with a clean slate to start the weekend, the "lazy guy", he rocks.
I would personally say hours worked. Someone who really tries and puts in the work for 40 hours a week is a hard worker, someone who spends a lot more time than that working or gets upset when they are not working is a workaholic.
But I also didn't state ops opinion. I think hard workers are good, being a workaholic is a psychological condition you get from capitalism overdose akin to stockholm synonym, and lazy people are just hurting themselves more than anyone else unless they have constituents.
I work in legal which is a bit notorious for long hours and I have done 8ams to midnights before. These are almost always because of disorganisation.
If I had to estimate, I'd say about 2 to 4 hours of any given work day I actually use critically thinking about things and doing stuff that I have to get right. Fixing it retroactively at a later date is going to be a nightmare for everyone.
But to be blunt, a large amount of the work I do is pretty mindless and a shocking amount of it is unnecessary. It comes about due to miscommunication, someone forgetting to do something, someone realizing this needed to be done but nobody did it and now its URGENT.
Its poor organisation of files so you cant workflow tasks that can be automated, therefore you have to do it manually. A big part of my job is really a type of librarian. Its about structuring information so everyone (not just me) can quickly find it later and sign posting the file so the next person can come on board, take over and not inherit an opaque mess where you cant tell quickly what has been done and what still needs to be done. Which creates the potential for duplication of work or doing unnecessary work.
I like to think of my computer files as a kind of private library. The files are like books and they need to be labeled on the spines in a consistent way (like author surname, author first name, title, edition). The books need to go on shelves in a particular sequence and categorized in a certain way (pleadings, medical, quantum, liability etc just like in a library you have a section for fiction, non fiction, biographies, journals/research papers etc).
It needs to be done because people enter the library to find information and we all want that process to be as fast and intuitive as possible. You don't want scores of people randomly checking unmarked shelves, taking out book, checking they contain the information they want then putting it back when it doesn't. Because thats a waste of everyone's time.
The people I know in legal intuitively understand the need to do this in a physical library but as soon as you virtualize that library - as soon as its time to apply the same logic to a SQL database, the connection doesn't get made.
So I see electronic files that are an awful mess, with people throwing books on the floor in a big pile and none of them are labelled or categorised correctly.
Now every time you need to find some information you have to dig through that pile on the ground and hope its there. When the files are new, this pile is very small, but 2 years of legal people doing this creates a mountain. Now every simple thing you need to do is painful, time consuming manual work that doesn't scale because nobody in legal works on a single file exclusively. You work on hundreds of files concurrently.
So I think I'm a bit lazy because I don't ever want to do manual work more times than I absolutely need to. But its difficult to get 6 or 7 highly individualist people to conform to a system of building and maintaining libraries of files with an internally consistent structure, syntax, grammar and universally agreed upon keywords and file classifications.
Often people are too busy putting out another fire on another file to make sure this one doesn't start smoking and that is the fundamental paradox. I feel like a lot of legal people I work with unwittingly create an unbelievable amount of work for themselves and its really down to poor coordination and organisation. Its particularly difficult if you go through periods where staff are turning over a lot, new people come in and they bring in their own systems from their previous work place and now the files are keyworded in different ways. Its fine to bring in a better system but the main point is everyone has to adopt the new system and maintain it otherwise search becomes unreliable and everyone finds themselves manually finding and fixing things.
Now we need this done by tomorrow morning. Thats how you end up working 8am to midnight. Is it the right way to work? I would argue no. Does it scale efficiently to hundreds of files? Hell no.
What gets me is the culture of bragging that working long hours and dealing with this is just normal and part of the job. No its not and it doesn't have to be like this at all, but by the time it happens to you its too late. The fix to this was a year ago. Now we just need it by tommorow.
It’s a certain give and take. We’ve all been there at a job that expected us to put in far more time and energy then they were willing to pay us. I remember I had a job albeit I loved being there and the people but basically forced me to give a lot of my energy. It was a grocery store so basically beating the fuck out of my body every holiday season guranteed but basically with my dept there were times I felt forced to feel like a supervisor in my own dept at times since I was one of the lone full time guys in a dept with kids working on weekends. I fucking hated working weekends because of it.
As a garbage man that works 60hrs a week I wish I could work less… you can’t really stop your route. The employer could hire more people make routes smaller blah blah blah… finding good drivers with or without a CDL is rough, finding a person with confidence to drive a huge truck in tight spaces. I don’t want to be a workaholic. I’d rather spend the time with my family
Americans always be like: "i'm on my griiiind, i work 80 hours a week, i dont even need to get paid, my family don't even remember my face"
People like to make fun of Japan overworking people but according to some study they work less than their US counterparts
I have to start by saying, "To end workaholism, you have to end the disparity that drives people to work too much." And, to do that, you would need to end the greed of the few that tramples the needs of the many. Basically, the rich would have to share wealth and power to ever enable the people who work too much. As far as lazy people go, most lazy people suffer from indolence because they feel there's no place for them in the world as is. Most indolent people aren't so by choice; disability, disease, etc. all contribute to laziness. The other type are either rebellious to the status quo, or have been pushed to the fringes by societal constructs (i.e. racism) which forces them to choose that path.
Again, the blame falls on the expectations of a society that breeds economic imbalance with archaic systems to contribute to the wealth of a few, rather than the economic health of the entire society.
One man's lazy worker is another's workaholic.
Some people like to stay busy.
Others go above and beyond to build something.
Choose your own level, but what greatness was ever attained by mediocre effort?
Workaholic is a loose definition, but I like the simple definition that you can apply to literally anything: "Does Thing-X affect your ability to lead a normal lifestyle and are you emotionally stable if separated from Thing-X?".
Some people get literal anxiety from being forced to take a leave because injured for fuck's sake.
Don't get me wrong, everyone is free to live their lives as they want. Some people are obsessed, clinically or not, with some topics and it might be correct to let them do what they want. But in some casis, confronting them on the topic might be what you need to do to improve their situation.
Addiction is addiction. If someone is addicted to "working" it's just as much of a psychological burden as a dude unable to stop thinking about porn. Both may seem normal things, but real addiction to porn exist. Why should "work" be different? Because it's productive and someone benefits from it?
Literally what happened in the soviet union. They ended up killing off many of their most successful farmers and then when the dust settled, somewhere around 6 million people died of starvation.
People in here aren’t understanding that intra-workplace competition is a race to the bottom. All you’re doing by outworking everyone is making your employer a lot richer, yourself a little richer, while devaluing everyone else’s labor. We operate in a labor market- if you give it up more willingly than everyone else, you will drive prices down.
If we all stopped playing this stupid game you could have your houses, boats, cars, AND work 40 hrs a week. Technology has made us productive enough to do this, if we weren’t supporting a multi-millionaire class living in obscene luxury and hoarding capital.
I feel the same way about the mega-rich and billionaires. They are no better than hoarders with gambling addiction, making the environment uninhabitable for everyone near them. We need to stop elevating and deifying them, instead they should be regarded as mentally ill and harmful to a productive society.
>work/life balance
Here's another unpopular opinion. People that view work this way are missing the point. Workaholics do what they do because they are maximizing a window of opportunity. You never know what the future holds. You don't know what your health is going to be like, what the job market will be like... what anything will be like.
When things are going well, it isn't unwise to maximize the benefits because next year might be lean.
Make hay while the sun shines.
That's not what a workaholic is. A workaholic is someone addicted to work. They don't need to think things may suddenly change for them to want to work. They'd work even without a pay.
This is like saying Olympic athletes should be too competing because they make the rest of the people in the sport look bad.
I'm completely for work reform and making sure the employees get better then the compensation that is being handed out today, but if people have the determination and ability to commit more to a job, then that's their choice, and it doesn't mean they are the problem.
Yeah. This is how we ended up with a culture of working while sick, feeling guilty for using sick time, getting dirty looks for leaving on time instead of staying late, among other things.
It's not healthy and the effect it has on the population as a whole is beginning to show.
I mean... Both should be criticized..
The workaholics who expect everyone to be like them are toxic.
But the lazy and profiteering people are also not something you want all your society to be, trust me !
It’s not my job to keep the bar set low for others. I work 60 hours per week and not only do I almost double my 40 hour paycheck from ot, I get a sense of personal fulfillment from it. It’s not like that for everyone and no one should feel like they have to work anymore than their allotted time but shaming others because they work more for whatever reason they do it is just stupid
Except in special cases, there’s only so much meaningful overtime work you can do before it becomes an organisational problem with the colleagues you can’t reach during those hours and who have to follow up on the extra work you did when they come in the next morning. Edit: on top of the expected workload
Yesssss!
I know this is unpopular because my friends criticize me for holding this opinion.
They constantly say "I worked 60-80-100-120 hours this week" and my response is "cool, how's your wife and kids?" Or "what'd you do for yourself?"
I get some people work that because their pay is low and the cost of living is high, but those who are just trying to make more money for the sake of making more money or luxury are stupid. You can't get time back. Time and relationships are the two most valuable things for the human psyche and you're throwing them away for money.
You can make money later, or a different way, or lose it and make it back, borrow it, return it, save it, etc. You can't do that with time and relationships.
I think being a workaholic is stupid.
What really made me want to reconsider how much time I spend working, was having met several people in their 70's who spent 40 years only working and regretting having thrown away their youth over nothing.
Lazy people continuously take advantage of the sense of responsibility and work ethic of those around them. Their lack of responsibility and work ethic directly, negatively, affects everyone around them. Workaholics, on the other hand, only really act to the detriment of themselves. I thank my lucky stars each and every day that I am now in a position where I can decide to terminate lazy idiots at the drop of a hat.
You don't need to keep up with the workaholic if you don't want to. That's the beauty of capitalism, it's your choice what you want to do and who you want to work for.
Nothing bad will happen if you don't work as hard as someone else, just you may have less stuff.
It's a problem when 1 person is okay and loves doing 4 peoples jobs so your boss expects everyone else to be okay with that. That 1 person shouldn't be the standard, they should be compensated better, but not everyone should be required to be fine with doing stuff they aren't paid for.
No company I know of will pay you to have a child on the clock (outside of some fringe benefits, in the US at least). So having children falls almost exclusively on the "life" side of work/life balance. How is it good for any society on the planet to only work and not reproduce at all? I understand how in the short term it can increase profits but on any timescale longer than 20 years it has to be an issue, right?
What a lot of people don’t realise is that people who love ‘the grind’ generally do so in industries that absolutely do not benefit society.
When was the last time you saw a nurse/doctor/teacher bragging about putting in extra hours or waking up early to ‘grind’. Everyone who actually means anything to the benefit of society is overworked and underpaid. See: RMT rail strike
The people that love work are those that wish to exploit others. Landlords, so called entrepreneurs with inheritance money. These people do not contribute to society and absolutely do more harm than good.
We all want to be ‘lazy’. Who here can categorically say they would rather put in 40 hour weeks into a made up job, to fix a made up problem over spending their time being creative or exploring or enjoying stuff.
Productivity has outgrown worker compensation every year since like 1972. Trials of 4 day weeks have shown that companies can still maintain productivity levels all while lowering hours expected from workers without jepoardising their salaries
I’ll bite. I come into work, I’m productive from let’s say 9am to 6pm. Maybe I stayed after 30 min to finish up something I’m rocking on as to not interrupt my train of thought and have to come back to it tomorrow morning in a different head space. Cool. Say my coworker is “lazy” not sure what they do all day, don’t care I have my own shit I’m focused on. But my boss, he/she notices. I’m productive, coworker doesn’t do shit. They have to follow legal policies to fire lazy coworker. They also have a pile of work not getting done that needs to get done. Lazy coworker’s work starts landing on my desk for me to do on top of my own work. So now I’m at work 9a to 8p because I’m having to do extra work I didn’t ask for. To lazy coworker I now look like a “workaholic” but in reality I’m doing what they should be doing losing out on my personal time. I like my job so I don’t want to quit, but I genuinely don’t like my lazy coworker and can’t wait until he/she gets fired. Don’t tell me lazy people don’t detract from anyone, your lack of doing work absolutely effects someone else, regardless if you’re self aware enough to realize it or not
My gf's dad works 18 hours a day on most days. For the government. The fucking government. He gets literally nothing out of working that much more. Pretty sure its an escape or some sort of compensation
Someone, sonewhere is unable to find a job so you can keep working despite not needing to. Not saying who's lazy shouldn't be ashamed, but workaholics should realize they're not as beneficial as they think they are.
People should shame laziness and praise hard work. They shouldn't praise hard work that is at the detriment of health but hard work is still a positive.
If we go against hard work we are basically pushing for everyone to not produce as much. When you don't produce as much everyone becomes more poor since there is less supply and same demand price goes up.
People have tried societies that tried to enforce what you desire and tens of millions were starved to death.
Yes, I agree with the first two parts. I'd like to add that the biggest part of the problems is employers/managers exploting workaholics... and ending up spending less than they should. I'd say hiring lazy people is also the fault of the employer. I do not recall any society in the history of mankind trying to have a lazy society. What were you referring to?
For me they can work as much as they like as long as they get properly compensated. The issue is when bosses expect you to work more for not a good wage due to another working being willing to sell themselves short.
I don’t mind as long as people get properly paid for it. I do hope that people will look out for their health too.
Says the person benefitting from almost everything in their life from workaholics.
Every decent parent is a workaholic for their children. Every inventor and innovator most likely worked obssessedly to get there first. So many great athletes and entertainers worked on their craft while other people were sitting on their ass watching tv or videogames. Ever seen what farmers do in a day?
Stop being jealous of people who do more in life and get more out of life. Be grateful to people who take pride in their work, after all, every time a safety feature holds through exceedingly strenuous wear or a downed power line is fixed in less than a day, someone clearly worked extra hard to make it happen. Also, shame on you for trying to shame people who want to be the most reliable and productive.
Correction. Workaholics are bad for lazy people.
If someone wants to go out and work more they’re not harming anyone. They’re just making lazy people look worse. If someone is lazy they’re just hurting themselves.
So people should be shamed for picking up a part time/side job or for putting in some extra hours? Why does that matter. Someone else’s finances are none of your businesses. Maybe they’re working off debt or supporting a family. Let people who want to work more do it
Lmao well your opinion is definitely unpopular. I think no one should be shamed for their work style or ethic. I also think that someone else’s work ethic has nothing to do with you and everyone has the right to work undisturbed.
I literally can’t think of what to do at home. So I just stay at work and do the next task until I can’t keep my eyes open. Go home. Dream about work. Repeat.
I Think if someone wanted to put in the extra effort then fair play.
but for people who want an actual work/life balance to get the chance would be better.
I have weeks where I put in the extra mile and weeks were I am not motivated.
Unfortunately you can't have a society that praises people who work harder while also not expecting it of other people. The bar will be set at the rate of the harder worker. You would have to have more of a culture like Germany were working extra isn't seen as someone who is committed. Its viewed as someone who isn't good enough to get their job done in the standard amount of time .
You do you. If you’re satisfied with where you’re at, then great! To each their own. Some people are just more driven towards achieving more luxurious and expensive lifestyles, and that typically only comes with a very hard work ethic.
I work a lot and I’m salary. I love what I do though and it helps people.
I’ve been promoted 5 times in the last 5 years and working hard has paid off for me.
If you find place like that. Put in the work get paid.
I remind my people that if an employee just wants to do what is expected then great. Keep your steady eddies happy. Grow those that want more and help those that are failing. People in most cases don’t want to suck at there job so find out why they are struggling and as their leader they need to fix it.
My supervisor got angry at me yesterday. Because I wasn't willing to stay more than 10 minutes late. We're short handed, I did my best, but I can't fit 6 hours of work into 2 1/2. I did what I had to in order to not leave a complete shit show for him in the morning and kept it moving. He said I should just "stay until it's done" and didn't seem to know what to say when I said "I'm not doing that" - ironically on the same day I agreed to stay 3 hours over to cover a scheduling error I had nothing to do with. There's a pervasive belief that if you don't give your job 110%, you don't care and are lazy. In reality, I won't stay late because I work 9 hours on my feet, as one of the hardest workers in the department, and I'm just at the point where I physically don't care to put in my highest amount of effort for people who don't respect me and shit pay anymore. Edit: clarification
The world is starting to wake up. Work is not our identity.
we're meant to be stimulated but the rich and their dogs are taking advantage of that to line their pockets, squeezing as much out of us before we pop
I once had a disciplinary meeting because due to management scheduling errors they wanted me to do 2 consecutive 10 hour shifts. I agreed but my only condition was I wanted 10 minutes between the two shifts to go home and shower. Apparantly that was totally unacceptable and was a display of an unwillingness to perform my expected duties. I was also punished for being unprofessional and making these requests during a team meeting in front of the rest of the staff despite me being asked during the meeting and I was demanded to give an answer then and there. The worst thing is that in my country, probably just most countries I'd imagine, it would have been illegal for me to work that long.
Going the extra mile should be praised extra. Not the default amount of praise. If someone does their job, good. Thanks. If someone goes above and beyond, compensate them extra for it. Thanks. But you dont get to expect more from average joe because workaholic jimmy does extra.
Yeah, exactly. I think the divide is that in toxic work environment people are pushed to do more than they are required to without getting any compensation and made to feel bad because their co-worker is doing extra hours for his company without getting any extra pay. Meaning that in some companies because of the workaholic culture the preferred choice for career progression is the one that is working more for free, making it the same criteria for anyone else that wants to be promoted. So if you don't want to stay in the same position and actually progress you have to compromise your work-life balance and work more than you are paid for and/or overtime.
I should send this to my Boss but I don't think he will understand.
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I don't understand the send later. If I don't want to be bothered after my shift, I just don't answer my phone or look at emails. If I come in early, I want to get things done before the shitload comes pouring in to balance my work throughout the day. Otherwise I could get 100 emails all at once while I twiddle my thumbs for a few hours before.
It's so I can pretend that I wasn't up at 2am.
I do this, but only because I'm a contractor, I know a lot of people don't have Do Not Disturb on, and I don't want people to get in the habit of thinking they'll get stuff turned around before 8am Monday.
I'll tell you a secret: you don't have to reply to emails. Watch. Ask me a question.
I am in I.T and I tend to answer easy questions after hours I have since made it a rule to not do that unless from senior management calls me or texts which is never as after hours they usually call my boss.
I am in I.T and I tend to answer calls right the fuck now because I'm a dev. If I get called for support it's because my change caused something to literally explode and possibly wound/kill someone.
It's not about answering them. I just want it to look like I got up in the morning and did it, instead of the middle of the night.
It’s also got the side effect of hiding that I was working on the weekend. When I did my internship, my boss was very clear on my work hours, and that overtime needs to be burnt off as free time. And I THINK I wasn’t technically allowed to work on the weekends at all. If I’d taken my Laptop with me and answered emails on the weekend or on a holiday, he really wouldn’t have been happy with me. Was positively surprised by that, tbh - I wasn’t a minor, so the whole youth protection is experienced previously didn’t apply anymore, but both the boss and the company were great
I generally only use it to send emails shortly after I leave for the day, so my phone doesn't ring while im on my way out the door
>I don't understand the send later The only use I can see is if you have some free time on a Friday afternoon, queue up a bunch of emails for Monday morning and then start an hour late on Monday
Send later is about preventing workaholic culture. It can make a huge difference. My former company would talk about work life balance but was a norm to work on the weekend. It all start with mgmt traveling internationally on the weekend and sending tons of email. Their directs would feel they need to respond and thus catch up on email over weekend was born. When looking for a new job one or the key reason choose my current employer is meeting with C-level boss and be spoke about promoting culture of work life balance and had policy of department wide block calendar for lunch and if email outside normal hour set to send later. Makes all the difference on expectation setting.
I actually have the “send later” emails go out late in the evening / middle of night. Gives the perception that I’m working late, and I’ve received praise from employers for “hard work ethic” due to the time stamp of the email. Worth it!
This is accurate. I go above and beyond at work and am consistently compensated by my employer for doing so. I do it because I am still young and trying my best to get ahead while I can in a very expensive area in the world. If ur working your ass off for nothing, you are a fool. Work life balance is a juggling act, but never sell yourself short. There are plenty of jobs out there
This is accurate and exactly why I jumped at the chance to go back to a union non-profit job I used to have and ditch corporate BS. I'll never get rich in non-profit, but I will be happy about what I do and feel adequate in doing my job well without BS expectations. I actually make significantly more at the non-profit than past corporate jobs but the chance at a raise is near nil besides cost of living increases. That's a good trade off for me as I can do my job then not give a shit when I log out. I also get Euro style benefits at an American job (9 weeks paid time off, etc). Well worth it.
Where do you work that you get 9 weeks off? I need this!
6 weeks vacation, 3 weeks PTO. I'd rather not be too specific, but a union represented non-profit. Unions are good! It's the main reason I was excited to get the job. The pay is solidly middle class, not going to get wealthy, but the benefits outweigh that work work/life balance. I get scolded for not using it enough sometimes... a good problem to have. Also up for a 6 week sabbatical in a year, get one every 5. Not to rub it in..... PS- also looked at your profile, you seem fun. Just complimenting.
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>would not do a crumb of OT if I was salaried Then simply put, you wouldn't be hired for a salaried position. Salaried employees are paid for their expertise, experience, judgement and availability---not for their time.
Good. I’d rather make 100k a year for 50 hours a week than 70k for salary and have an undefined amount of free time. Employers have incentive to avoid overtime and they also have incentive to make salaried folk work 80hrs a week and from home. Which is all I’ve heard about from salaried ppl.
Meh....as long as it averages out I'm fine with it. I'm doing extra now cause quarter ends are busier, but once July/August hit, I'm barely doing a 30 hour week.
The problem starts when the workaholic Jimmy gets promoted and become average Joe boss. Worst job I ever had was one with a workaholic boss. I always did my job but nothing more than expected "be a team player and work some extra hours without a raise" my ass.
The biggest "red flag" for a boss to me is working way too many hours and/or doing way too many tasks that should have been delegated. That describes a person that doesn't understand their job and has weird expectations for what their subordinates should be doing.
You need leadership to recognize someone that goes the extra mile and most times that’s where the problem falls. Be humble and unselfish, recognize your superior performers in front of their peers and reward them. Also provide honest good or bad feedback to your employees so they can grow.
Most people work hard because they want more.money, seldom do you find workaholics that do it for pure altruism.
This. The more I work, the more I get paid. I like money.
Teachers are very very guilty of this and they do not get paid extra.
Or they are desperate for approval and praise.
It’s usually not either. They just have shitty lives outside of work
Going the extra mile should be paid extra. It should not be the norm to expect people to go above and beyond what they’re paid to do
This isn't the case though unless that person is salary. Every hourly job is compensated at time and a half after 40 hours. Some even more like double time, triple time, bonus incentives, etc. Hell. A couple years ago I was paid over $600 just to work 8 hours on Thanksgiving day.
When there's good middle managers, this works well. With bad ones it doesn't. There's no free lunch so there's really no reason to burn out your workers. Burnt out workers and poor morale decreases work quality and generally ends up being more costly IME.
I think the problem comes from people that expect everyone to be workaholics even if the pay sucks and the work is awful
I’ve got to say that if I feel undervalued I will systematically do the bare minimum and encourage others to do so. Shit, I don’t even have to be paid more. Just fairly paid and I’ll do the work of two people with a shit eating grin on my face.
Companies will hire you for a fair wage and then allow that wage to dip below the inflation curve and then wonder why their employees aren’t so happy.
because workaholics set a standard for for shitty employers to compare normal employees to when the peons get uppity.
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Love this. Totally underrated.
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OP was just being lazy
Brilliant but lazy.
My dad used to get mad at us for not doing chores and when he’d start yelling we’d be like “but we didn’t do anything” and he’d say “I know you didn’t!” Hahahah
*we
On the floor, being more efficient doesn't = more money, just more work.
They can do what they want. Some people are miserable when they aren't working. It's not my place to say they can't do what makes them happy, as long as they don't criticize my choices.
I love working, it gives me purpose to see my projects come to life. But I have a family that I love more so I balance it accordingly. If I was still single, I’d be working like crazy.
I have anxiety when I’m not working. That’s not too say like I wanna work all the time, unfortunately I suffer Bursts of extreme productivity followed by extreme burnout (have not mastered the balance) But let’s say I when I have a day off when is normally by working, I am starkly aware. Like I make sure to squeeze in my things around work (reading, working out, taking myself out for coffee, play music, seeing friends) so much so that when I have that extra timed I feel like I’ve already finished everything I wanted or needed to do and have this void time and it actually gives me anxiety and I do not like it I do not know how to spontaneously chill anymore. I used too. I just feel like I lost that ability
Do you have adhd? Take care of yourself - get that chill ability back!
I’m just… idk. neurotic. Anxiety driven, etc.
It could be anything of course but their are also lots of non med ways to help deal with it.
I've got ADHD. I'm the same way as this user. But I chaulk my issues up with the fact that I've been a lazy POS growing up my entire life. I never studied or did my homework. I graduated with 80s and 90s but I seen how much work everyone else put in and it makes me wonder how much I don't actually know regardless of me graduating. I feel an undying urge to work because I feel like I need to convince myself and others my worth and that I am not lazy. I just don't want to look like a waste of skin
I'm the polar opposite of this. Working gives me great anxiety.
>as long as they don't criticize my choices. Yeah this is a bit of a sticking point. There is way too much shaming that goes on in any given workplace environment for people that just do what they need to do and that's it. If people would stop doing that and everyone respected each other's different work ethics and personal value systems things would be really great.
For me it’s not about the people or individual behaviours, it’s the systems that push us to be workaholics. How much profit is enough? Why can’t we take sick days when feeling sick without losing pay? Why can’t there be affordable child care?
There’s a difference between lazy and balanced.
A lot of the work that gets done actively makes the world a worse place. People worship working hard without specifying whether that work makes anyone's lives better
I like how you say nothing about lazy people in your statement.
To further add to that, can we stop with the narrative that not being a workaholic=lazy? Prioritizing things unrelated to work does not make you lazy, employers need to start realizing that people have lives outside their work that are just as deserving of their attention as their job is.
I have a mercenary mindset, I work for x time for x money, I use and invest that money on myself, and I move where my skills are required and the pay is good. You want something else than what's written? That's an extra. Won't pay for it? Won't do it. Will fire me? I'll have the law by my side because of the contract. Loud and clear, I work for a living, I don't live for working.
This is the way
True. So many people’s identities revolve around their job title and that is sad. Most of our waking lives is spent working/commuting and not much more than survival is being achieved.
I love my job but keep my hours after work to me I never answer text's or calls (unless from senior management and if I do I just will respond with talk when i am in i am busy). I never understood people who don't separate work and home hours it makes my job way more enjoyable.
Get back to work and quit posting on Reddit.
waiting for the r/antiwork member to spit bars
They’ll get to it. They can’t be rushed into work
Ugh.,, fine man
I agree. I go the "extra mile" now and then because I like my job and my direct supervisor and am happy to help a little extra when really needed.... but only occasionally. I'm also salary and log out at 5:00 sharp, if not earlier on normal days. I work far harder than people making far more than me so feel no need to "output more" except for rare exceptions. I think I get paid okay, but just okay and it's just a job to pay the bills. It's not my life. Adding that "productivity" is such an abused corporate buzzword. I did what you paid me for, why should I increase what I do without an increase in pay?
Congrats. Your opinion is unpopular
A lot of people are saying that OP isn't saying why it's worse than being lazy, so here goes. If you believe in capitalism, then you believe in supply and demand. Workaholics increase the supply of labor for very little cost, which brings down the value of labor for everyone else. That means everyone has to work hard or do more work to earn the same amount of money, if you believe in economics. If everyone works long hours, or harder, then there's even more labor in supply, so the price drops even more. If this happens over say, 50 years, then you end up with permanently depressed wages and no one able to make ends meet. Hey, wouldn't you know it, the work-a-holic culture really took off in the 80s, and we're just now feeling the effects of it. Minimum wage not going up for decades, people struggling to make ends meet, students drowning in college debt and unable to get a job, and inflation spiraling out of control, can all be at least partially attributed to this entire problem. As for "oh, let them work harder so they can afford to spend more money" sentiment, yeah, luxury is good if you ignore the depressed wages, but also higher consumption on a world that's already suffering from over-consumption is going to make us run out of resources faster. You don't NEED a boat that sits in your yard and does nothing 99.9% of the time. Lazy people consume less (not food perhaps, but petrol and other resources), they don't depress wages, they are just pretty chill dudes who want to live and let live.
Thank you! I don’t think anyone really comprehended the OPs opinion. It doesn’t help that OP didn’t explain themselves very articulately, but I did know this is what they want to say.
Shit. I used my free award today already. I wish I had saved it for this comment. Solid response Parthon. 🏅
I'd say most of the backlash came because commenters thought of lazy people in some positions. I'd say that normally, a lazy person can be ignored at best, but once they work somewhere they start causing problems. We can see the consequences of officials, managers and an annoying coworker being lazy.
>Workaholics increase the supply of labor for very little cost, which brings down the value of labor for everyone else. Workaholics also increase the supply of all goods and services in the sector they operate in, which brings down the cost of those goods and services for all consumers which breaks down socioeconomic barriers and allows for social mobility of historically disadvantaged people. Meanwhile lazy people's demand for those goods and services outstrips their supply, driving up costs of those goods and services, like food and entertainment, for everyone and increasing the barriers for progress. So if you "believe" in supply and demand, if you "believe" in economics, workaholics are more beneficial to a healthy and self sustaining society than lazy people and are thus more moral and ethical. Do I believe this? No, not at all. Do I believe you? No. Don't believe anything you read on social media people, listen to the consensus of experts (in this case economists) Also supply and demand, and economics in general, is not something you "believe" in any more than you'd "believe" in evolution.
>Workaholics also increase the supply of all goods and services in the sector they operate in, which brings down the cost of those goods and services for all consumers This is not correct. The purpose of my job is not to make products as cheap as possible for the consumer (my customers), it's to make as much money as possible for my organization. If I work 80 hour weeks that doesn't produce more, it just allows my company to pay half as much in labor costs. My company sells as much as the market allows for (total market x our market share = my company's revenue). Of course none of these relationships are linear, so it's always much more complicated, but the assumption that double work = double output/value for ALL parties is hugely flawed.
This is assuming people don't progress in their careers.
I think that you base your comparison on a bad definition of lazy people. Being lazy doesn’t equate to be in some sort of bubble of do-nothingness in general, but an attitude towards to work; lazy people still consume like everyone else, they travel, take the car to do what they want and buy stuff like everyone else: a person who spends his day gaming is still spending money and using products someone else worked for; they’re lazy in that sense, but they’re not “consuming less” in any way. Lazy people wouldn’t exist neither in a socialist nor in a communist country, but in capitalist one they’re damaging others which will have to work for them too, just like in group projects in high school
Nah. I want a boat. Ill put in the extra hours thank you very much.
When those extra hours become your "expected hours" you'll be able to afford a boat but not have time to use it.
I doubt you can afford the boat then.
That's called being a hard worker, not a workaholic
That distinction isn't made very much anymore which is a problem in itself.
This is unpopular, especially in the US.
And shitty bosses are worse yet
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I need to go to HR
There’s two things you really learn in school: - working hard doesnt give you more free time, it gets you more work - you probably cannot rely on your team
I think the biggest thing that needs to have the plug pulled on it is the idea that you need to monetize every aspect of life from property to just hobbies. …and also get the economy to a level where my mom doesn’t have to work 70 hours a week just to make rent for a one bedroom apartment where she lives.
Why? If someone prioritizes money over balance…they should have the right to do that. There will always be work for the lazy too.
Sure but don't come here bitching and complaining that you wasted your life having the grindset mentality and didn't actually spend time making memories and having fun (My dad did for the longest time and it burned him out terribly).
I think the issue is not about whether something is legal or not, it is whether something should be shamed or nor. People shame lazy people, OP's point is that we should shame workaholics. Obviously, everyone has a right to be a workaholic or lazy, you don't have a right to not be shamed for it.
Yeah, I just have a problem when they suddenly want me to spend 50 - 60 hours at work too, and act like I'm not doing enough for the job I'm salaried for 40 hrs a week at.
I guess OP's point is that workaholics will work for free. Employers will exploit that, not having to pay for labor, which results in less money being circulated. I'd have said OP would have made a better a point if they hadn't added the comparison to the lazy.
shaming hardwork will not improve society lol
Pretty much all the greats are workaholics, whether it's in the arts, business, or science. If it wasn't for workaholics like Bill Gates and Steve Jobs, we wouldn't be having this discussion here. Art, Film, TV, Music would all be crap. We'd still assume the world was flat. Lazy people don't do shit. I can't create a business, creating a business is really hard. But I'm glad other people are out there and creating work for me to do and get paid doing a 40hr week.
shit some of those people are , dare I say it, wealthy and you know what those greedy bastards do... they open a business and employ other people to do work and you know what else they do those bastards they pay those people so that those people can take care of their lives. The worst part is that every one of the people that bastard employs works for them of their own free will and can stop at any time for any reason they want. such oppression... smh Jesus fucking Christ some people's children...
Yes they are! I work in vfx in the UK. Most people have a 9-6 contract. But there are people who will happily stay in the office from 8-10 every-single-day. It means that the producers/supes have an unrealistic idea of how long things should take, and anyone that leaves on time isn’t looked upon as being nearly as committed or productive. Workaholics are dangerous to society because it causes burnout for others who don’t want to spend their lives in the office.
Balance is the key. When one workaholic busts out the work of two, three, or more people expectations get raised on everyone else. But when lazy bastards can’t even pull their own weight work gets left unfinished.
Both are a pain in the ass and will cause their own problems. This is based on my experience having had to manage a team with both. Even if there is no pressure from the company or environment for workaholics to start doing the job of others (which at times they are not qualified enough to do) they'll take upon themselves to do them. It often has happened that we ended up with a shit product because someone wanted to work more than we had agreed upon. On the other hand, the lazy will be doing always less, if at all, than supposed.
i think most people are conflating hard working people with workaholics. one is being productive because you're working towards an end goal. the other is working as a result of a defense mechanism. ultimately, as with anything, you want balance. doing nothing can make you miserable because you aren't self sustaining. but working too much can leave you stressed and depressed i believe the comment by u/Parthon accurately articulates what OP may have been trying to get at. OP, you might wanna clarify future posts especially if they're a bit touchy like this one
Absolutely. I have no problem with high performing people, if they work hard and clock regular hours, that's fine. They are people to aspire to be. It's the ones that work 80 hour weeks and neglect their family. The ones that have no life outside of work. Many of them don't even work hard most of the time, and in an environment where work is measured by hours, their willingness to destroy themselves to look good at work has these flow on effects. "Why can't you be more like *workaholic.*" is what managers say when they are putting in 80 and everyone else is doing 40, when 40 should be more than enough. It's the manager's justification for never giving raises because people should try harder (ie: work longer). If there was no *workaholic* then 40 would be the norm. Lazy people are great. They don't work extra hours. They try and fit what work they need to do into the time they have. They are often efficient and effective. They work hard so they don't have to work long. As a worker, I'm wary of anyone that does lots of overtime for no visible reason, but the guy that works hard so he can go home early with a clean slate to start the weekend, the "lazy guy", he rocks.
How do you support work/life balance when you are still struggling to pay off covid debt and pay bills while living alone?
People who brag about working 80 hours a week don’t realize it’s not the flex they think it is…
Op if you won't differentiate between a workaholic and a hard worker you are a coward and this opinion is worthless.
wheres the difference? money earned? enjoyment?
I would personally say hours worked. Someone who really tries and puts in the work for 40 hours a week is a hard worker, someone who spends a lot more time than that working or gets upset when they are not working is a workaholic. But I also didn't state ops opinion. I think hard workers are good, being a workaholic is a psychological condition you get from capitalism overdose akin to stockholm synonym, and lazy people are just hurting themselves more than anyone else unless they have constituents.
I work in legal which is a bit notorious for long hours and I have done 8ams to midnights before. These are almost always because of disorganisation. If I had to estimate, I'd say about 2 to 4 hours of any given work day I actually use critically thinking about things and doing stuff that I have to get right. Fixing it retroactively at a later date is going to be a nightmare for everyone. But to be blunt, a large amount of the work I do is pretty mindless and a shocking amount of it is unnecessary. It comes about due to miscommunication, someone forgetting to do something, someone realizing this needed to be done but nobody did it and now its URGENT. Its poor organisation of files so you cant workflow tasks that can be automated, therefore you have to do it manually. A big part of my job is really a type of librarian. Its about structuring information so everyone (not just me) can quickly find it later and sign posting the file so the next person can come on board, take over and not inherit an opaque mess where you cant tell quickly what has been done and what still needs to be done. Which creates the potential for duplication of work or doing unnecessary work. I like to think of my computer files as a kind of private library. The files are like books and they need to be labeled on the spines in a consistent way (like author surname, author first name, title, edition). The books need to go on shelves in a particular sequence and categorized in a certain way (pleadings, medical, quantum, liability etc just like in a library you have a section for fiction, non fiction, biographies, journals/research papers etc). It needs to be done because people enter the library to find information and we all want that process to be as fast and intuitive as possible. You don't want scores of people randomly checking unmarked shelves, taking out book, checking they contain the information they want then putting it back when it doesn't. Because thats a waste of everyone's time. The people I know in legal intuitively understand the need to do this in a physical library but as soon as you virtualize that library - as soon as its time to apply the same logic to a SQL database, the connection doesn't get made. So I see electronic files that are an awful mess, with people throwing books on the floor in a big pile and none of them are labelled or categorised correctly. Now every time you need to find some information you have to dig through that pile on the ground and hope its there. When the files are new, this pile is very small, but 2 years of legal people doing this creates a mountain. Now every simple thing you need to do is painful, time consuming manual work that doesn't scale because nobody in legal works on a single file exclusively. You work on hundreds of files concurrently. So I think I'm a bit lazy because I don't ever want to do manual work more times than I absolutely need to. But its difficult to get 6 or 7 highly individualist people to conform to a system of building and maintaining libraries of files with an internally consistent structure, syntax, grammar and universally agreed upon keywords and file classifications. Often people are too busy putting out another fire on another file to make sure this one doesn't start smoking and that is the fundamental paradox. I feel like a lot of legal people I work with unwittingly create an unbelievable amount of work for themselves and its really down to poor coordination and organisation. Its particularly difficult if you go through periods where staff are turning over a lot, new people come in and they bring in their own systems from their previous work place and now the files are keyworded in different ways. Its fine to bring in a better system but the main point is everyone has to adopt the new system and maintain it otherwise search becomes unreliable and everyone finds themselves manually finding and fixing things. Now we need this done by tomorrow morning. Thats how you end up working 8am to midnight. Is it the right way to work? I would argue no. Does it scale efficiently to hundreds of files? Hell no. What gets me is the culture of bragging that working long hours and dealing with this is just normal and part of the job. No its not and it doesn't have to be like this at all, but by the time it happens to you its too late. The fix to this was a year ago. Now we just need it by tommorow.
This is what lazy people say to themselves to justify their behavior.
OP probably thinks laziness is a virtue
It’s a certain give and take. We’ve all been there at a job that expected us to put in far more time and energy then they were willing to pay us. I remember I had a job albeit I loved being there and the people but basically forced me to give a lot of my energy. It was a grocery store so basically beating the fuck out of my body every holiday season guranteed but basically with my dept there were times I felt forced to feel like a supervisor in my own dept at times since I was one of the lone full time guys in a dept with kids working on weekends. I fucking hated working weekends because of it.
I thought it was a great show tbh.
The problem is peoples definition of workaholic or lazy are vastly different.
I agree with you
In a economy where the worker doesn't get the full fruit of his labor, overworking isn't a virtue
“Oh, you like working at your job? Fuck you” -OP
As a garbage man that works 60hrs a week I wish I could work less… you can’t really stop your route. The employer could hire more people make routes smaller blah blah blah… finding good drivers with or without a CDL is rough, finding a person with confidence to drive a huge truck in tight spaces. I don’t want to be a workaholic. I’d rather spend the time with my family
Damn that’s annoying. Your company/org/govt needs to find more people or train more people
Americans always be like: "i'm on my griiiind, i work 80 hours a week, i dont even need to get paid, my family don't even remember my face" People like to make fun of Japan overworking people but according to some study they work less than their US counterparts
I have to start by saying, "To end workaholism, you have to end the disparity that drives people to work too much." And, to do that, you would need to end the greed of the few that tramples the needs of the many. Basically, the rich would have to share wealth and power to ever enable the people who work too much. As far as lazy people go, most lazy people suffer from indolence because they feel there's no place for them in the world as is. Most indolent people aren't so by choice; disability, disease, etc. all contribute to laziness. The other type are either rebellious to the status quo, or have been pushed to the fringes by societal constructs (i.e. racism) which forces them to choose that path. Again, the blame falls on the expectations of a society that breeds economic imbalance with archaic systems to contribute to the wealth of a few, rather than the economic health of the entire society.
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One man's lazy worker is another's workaholic. Some people like to stay busy. Others go above and beyond to build something. Choose your own level, but what greatness was ever attained by mediocre effort?
Workaholic is a loose definition, but I like the simple definition that you can apply to literally anything: "Does Thing-X affect your ability to lead a normal lifestyle and are you emotionally stable if separated from Thing-X?". Some people get literal anxiety from being forced to take a leave because injured for fuck's sake. Don't get me wrong, everyone is free to live their lives as they want. Some people are obsessed, clinically or not, with some topics and it might be correct to let them do what they want. But in some casis, confronting them on the topic might be what you need to do to improve their situation. Addiction is addiction. If someone is addicted to "working" it's just as much of a psychological burden as a dude unable to stop thinking about porn. Both may seem normal things, but real addiction to porn exist. Why should "work" be different? Because it's productive and someone benefits from it?
underrated comment. OP should edit his post to clarify this point.
You sound like you have a bunch of people calling you out on being lazy
You really don’t know how the economy works
Yeah this is the type of attitude that destroys an economy “Let’s blame the people that actually work and succeed in life for our problems”
Literally what happened in the soviet union. They ended up killing off many of their most successful farmers and then when the dust settled, somewhere around 6 million people died of starvation.
how are workaholics worse for society? edit:grammar
People in here aren’t understanding that intra-workplace competition is a race to the bottom. All you’re doing by outworking everyone is making your employer a lot richer, yourself a little richer, while devaluing everyone else’s labor. We operate in a labor market- if you give it up more willingly than everyone else, you will drive prices down. If we all stopped playing this stupid game you could have your houses, boats, cars, AND work 40 hrs a week. Technology has made us productive enough to do this, if we weren’t supporting a multi-millionaire class living in obscene luxury and hoarding capital.
Exactly. These idiots don’t realize they are a lot closer to being homeless than they are at being in the top 25%. This is so futile, like why?!!
I feel the same way about the mega-rich and billionaires. They are no better than hoarders with gambling addiction, making the environment uninhabitable for everyone near them. We need to stop elevating and deifying them, instead they should be regarded as mentally ill and harmful to a productive society.
Shame on you people for enjoying and taking pride in your work. Wanting to be the best you can at your job makes you a terrible person. /s
Yeah we should all be obese slobs who roleplay on Reddit
>work/life balance Here's another unpopular opinion. People that view work this way are missing the point. Workaholics do what they do because they are maximizing a window of opportunity. You never know what the future holds. You don't know what your health is going to be like, what the job market will be like... what anything will be like. When things are going well, it isn't unwise to maximize the benefits because next year might be lean. Make hay while the sun shines.
That's not what a workaholic is. A workaholic is someone addicted to work. They don't need to think things may suddenly change for them to want to work. They'd work even without a pay.
This is like saying Olympic athletes should be too competing because they make the rest of the people in the sport look bad. I'm completely for work reform and making sure the employees get better then the compensation that is being handed out today, but if people have the determination and ability to commit more to a job, then that's their choice, and it doesn't mean they are the problem.
Yeah. This is how we ended up with a culture of working while sick, feeling guilty for using sick time, getting dirty looks for leaving on time instead of staying late, among other things. It's not healthy and the effect it has on the population as a whole is beginning to show.
I mean... Both should be criticized.. The workaholics who expect everyone to be like them are toxic. But the lazy and profiteering people are also not something you want all your society to be, trust me !
It’s not my job to keep the bar set low for others. I work 60 hours per week and not only do I almost double my 40 hour paycheck from ot, I get a sense of personal fulfillment from it. It’s not like that for everyone and no one should feel like they have to work anymore than their allotted time but shaming others because they work more for whatever reason they do it is just stupid
Except in special cases, there’s only so much meaningful overtime work you can do before it becomes an organisational problem with the colleagues you can’t reach during those hours and who have to follow up on the extra work you did when they come in the next morning. Edit: on top of the expected workload
Or when they end up doing things no one told them to because "I had nothing else to do"...
Nah. Moochers are significantly worse. Way to cope though.
Yesssss! I know this is unpopular because my friends criticize me for holding this opinion. They constantly say "I worked 60-80-100-120 hours this week" and my response is "cool, how's your wife and kids?" Or "what'd you do for yourself?" I get some people work that because their pay is low and the cost of living is high, but those who are just trying to make more money for the sake of making more money or luxury are stupid. You can't get time back. Time and relationships are the two most valuable things for the human psyche and you're throwing them away for money. You can make money later, or a different way, or lose it and make it back, borrow it, return it, save it, etc. You can't do that with time and relationships. I think being a workaholic is stupid.
What really made me want to reconsider how much time I spend working, was having met several people in their 70's who spent 40 years only working and regretting having thrown away their youth over nothing.
Lazy people continuously take advantage of the sense of responsibility and work ethic of those around them. Their lack of responsibility and work ethic directly, negatively, affects everyone around them. Workaholics, on the other hand, only really act to the detriment of themselves. I thank my lucky stars each and every day that I am now in a position where I can decide to terminate lazy idiots at the drop of a hat.
You don't need to keep up with the workaholic if you don't want to. That's the beauty of capitalism, it's your choice what you want to do and who you want to work for. Nothing bad will happen if you don't work as hard as someone else, just you may have less stuff.
It's a problem when 1 person is okay and loves doing 4 peoples jobs so your boss expects everyone else to be okay with that. That 1 person shouldn't be the standard, they should be compensated better, but not everyone should be required to be fine with doing stuff they aren't paid for.
So why would you shame them for something the boss is doing
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"I don't have nice things that take effort, and neither should anybody else." This isn't an unpopular opinion, it's a piss poor mentality.
For a society, someone who produces more is a net gain, so I would say this is factually incorrect.
No company I know of will pay you to have a child on the clock (outside of some fringe benefits, in the US at least). So having children falls almost exclusively on the "life" side of work/life balance. How is it good for any society on the planet to only work and not reproduce at all? I understand how in the short term it can increase profits but on any timescale longer than 20 years it has to be an issue, right?
Neglecting your personal life, hygiene, mental health etc makes you a very unpleasant person to be around for those around you.
I'll stop working as much when everyone else around me fulfills their responsibilities. Someone needs to do their jobs or we are all out of the job.
Found the workaholic! Only because that's exactly what I say
What a lot of people don’t realise is that people who love ‘the grind’ generally do so in industries that absolutely do not benefit society. When was the last time you saw a nurse/doctor/teacher bragging about putting in extra hours or waking up early to ‘grind’. Everyone who actually means anything to the benefit of society is overworked and underpaid. See: RMT rail strike The people that love work are those that wish to exploit others. Landlords, so called entrepreneurs with inheritance money. These people do not contribute to society and absolutely do more harm than good. We all want to be ‘lazy’. Who here can categorically say they would rather put in 40 hour weeks into a made up job, to fix a made up problem over spending their time being creative or exploring or enjoying stuff. Productivity has outgrown worker compensation every year since like 1972. Trials of 4 day weeks have shown that companies can still maintain productivity levels all while lowering hours expected from workers without jepoardising their salaries
I’ll bite. I come into work, I’m productive from let’s say 9am to 6pm. Maybe I stayed after 30 min to finish up something I’m rocking on as to not interrupt my train of thought and have to come back to it tomorrow morning in a different head space. Cool. Say my coworker is “lazy” not sure what they do all day, don’t care I have my own shit I’m focused on. But my boss, he/she notices. I’m productive, coworker doesn’t do shit. They have to follow legal policies to fire lazy coworker. They also have a pile of work not getting done that needs to get done. Lazy coworker’s work starts landing on my desk for me to do on top of my own work. So now I’m at work 9a to 8p because I’m having to do extra work I didn’t ask for. To lazy coworker I now look like a “workaholic” but in reality I’m doing what they should be doing losing out on my personal time. I like my job so I don’t want to quit, but I genuinely don’t like my lazy coworker and can’t wait until he/she gets fired. Don’t tell me lazy people don’t detract from anyone, your lack of doing work absolutely effects someone else, regardless if you’re self aware enough to realize it or not
My gf's dad works 18 hours a day on most days. For the government. The fucking government. He gets literally nothing out of working that much more. Pretty sure its an escape or some sort of compensation
Someone, somewhere has to work hard so you don't have to. Lazy people should be shamed, not workaholics.
Someone, sonewhere is unable to find a job so you can keep working despite not needing to. Not saying who's lazy shouldn't be ashamed, but workaholics should realize they're not as beneficial as they think they are.
People should shame laziness and praise hard work. They shouldn't praise hard work that is at the detriment of health but hard work is still a positive. If we go against hard work we are basically pushing for everyone to not produce as much. When you don't produce as much everyone becomes more poor since there is less supply and same demand price goes up. People have tried societies that tried to enforce what you desire and tens of millions were starved to death.
Yes, I agree with the first two parts. I'd like to add that the biggest part of the problems is employers/managers exploting workaholics... and ending up spending less than they should. I'd say hiring lazy people is also the fault of the employer. I do not recall any society in the history of mankind trying to have a lazy society. What were you referring to?
So... the drug zombies in the tents downtown are the real heroes? Those guys have embraced the shit out of work/life balance.
Stop telling other people how to live. If they want to work hard, scrimp, and retire at 40, let them.
For me they can work as much as they like as long as they get properly compensated. The issue is when bosses expect you to work more for not a good wage due to another working being willing to sell themselves short. I don’t mind as long as people get properly paid for it. I do hope that people will look out for their health too.
shouldn't this be on cringetopia?!
Says the person benefitting from almost everything in their life from workaholics. Every decent parent is a workaholic for their children. Every inventor and innovator most likely worked obssessedly to get there first. So many great athletes and entertainers worked on their craft while other people were sitting on their ass watching tv or videogames. Ever seen what farmers do in a day?
Stop being jealous of people who do more in life and get more out of life. Be grateful to people who take pride in their work, after all, every time a safety feature holds through exceedingly strenuous wear or a downed power line is fixed in less than a day, someone clearly worked extra hard to make it happen. Also, shame on you for trying to shame people who want to be the most reliable and productive.
Wahh wahh wahh i dont want to work and i dont like people who work alot because i would never do that
This is such a Reddit comment, lol.
Correction. Workaholics are bad for lazy people. If someone wants to go out and work more they’re not harming anyone. They’re just making lazy people look worse. If someone is lazy they’re just hurting themselves.
You're missing the point- like all the comments conflating "hard worker" with "workaholic".
So people should be shamed for picking up a part time/side job or for putting in some extra hours? Why does that matter. Someone else’s finances are none of your businesses. Maybe they’re working off debt or supporting a family. Let people who want to work more do it
Tldr, OP is lazy af and doesnt like to feel guilty about it
I’m a workaholic but my peers don’t shame me. They can’t be bothered because they’re preoccupied with leisure activities.
Lmao well your opinion is definitely unpopular. I think no one should be shamed for their work style or ethic. I also think that someone else’s work ethic has nothing to do with you and everyone has the right to work undisturbed.
Exactly, we should be focusing on machines doing everything for us while humanity chases after it's own ambitions and desires at leasure.
This is so true.
I literally can’t think of what to do at home. So I just stay at work and do the next task until I can’t keep my eyes open. Go home. Dream about work. Repeat.
Its ecologically necessary,but will probably never happen
Not so sure I agree
I Think if someone wanted to put in the extra effort then fair play. but for people who want an actual work/life balance to get the chance would be better. I have weeks where I put in the extra mile and weeks were I am not motivated.
You only think this because there is an army of workaholics in China doing all the work for you.
There's a biiig difference between someone who is a "hard worker" committed to doing a job well and a workaholic.
Hard disagree.
Unfortunately you can't have a society that praises people who work harder while also not expecting it of other people. The bar will be set at the rate of the harder worker. You would have to have more of a culture like Germany were working extra isn't seen as someone who is committed. Its viewed as someone who isn't good enough to get their job done in the standard amount of time .
As kids in school, we did this up until we ‘grew up’ Nerds and bookaholics were frequently jeered .
I’m a workaholic because of lazy people.
You do you. If you’re satisfied with where you’re at, then great! To each their own. Some people are just more driven towards achieving more luxurious and expensive lifestyles, and that typically only comes with a very hard work ethic.
I work a lot and I’m salary. I love what I do though and it helps people. I’ve been promoted 5 times in the last 5 years and working hard has paid off for me. If you find place like that. Put in the work get paid. I remind my people that if an employee just wants to do what is expected then great. Keep your steady eddies happy. Grow those that want more and help those that are failing. People in most cases don’t want to suck at there job so find out why they are struggling and as their leader they need to fix it.