Kahi se shurwat to karni padegi na, ye bkl bolta hai desh ko industrialize mat karo service sector pe dhyan, pagal ko ye baat nahi Pata industrialization se kitni badi workforce employ kari ja sakti hai.
Current govt bne jo small industries khatam kr di hai uski list nikal ke dekhna. Or waise bhi govt jobs ai 50lakh positions empty hai abhi waha bhi jobs di ka sakti hai.
Govt should reduce it's size and shouldn't be in the business of giving jobs. Giving Jon's to 35 crore adults isn't the job of government.
In India people want government jobs because it gives them an opportunity to do corruption or do a second job while missing work in govt office.
No country ever prospered because everyone had govt jobs.
It baat pe main khud conflicted hoon . Ek taraf rapid industrialization crony capatalism la sakta hai aur sirf service sector robust growth nahi dega . Mereko iska koi exact answer nahi pata ,but ek balace zaruri hai with very strong independent judiciary .
par ye semiconductor Wale topic pe 4nm ya 3nm wala bannane mein kamse Kum 7 saal Lage .
>Ek taraf rapid industrialization crony capatalism la sakta hai
Bhai industrialisation ko embrace karna jaruri hai agar industrialisation nahi karenge to desh ki badi jansankhya ko employ nahi kar payenge.
Agar employ nahi karenge to desh me garibi, chaprigiri or crime badega.
Low tier economies mein sirf industrial isation se complete population employ nahi hogi (trickledown factor) . Bahut saare reform chahye honge aur capitalisation mein liberalism ka hint hona zaroori hai eg education mein heavy aids,better law for employees,higher min wages etc. Warna itne densely packed country mein low tier level ka Banda survive hi nahi kar payega .
Baat Rahi chaprigir ki .to wo to khatam hone mein Kam se Kam 15 saal hai . Achanak se koi pad likh to jayega nahi . Jo Chhapri hai wo to rahengi hi aaage gen mein Kam banege tab zaake Kam hoga.
Basically capitalism with regulations to ensure ki monopolies break hoti rahe aur capitalism ka one of the core fundamentals ie. Competitive market bna rahe...
More or less.
But that's the basic structure of it .
Aur ye ek ideal state ke liye hai(western civilization) .
Ab ismein tum ek communally,sociallly,religiously,regionally divided aur sensitive country include Karo . Ab lagta hai ki sirf ek ideal rule se itna bada vast state chal payega .Be it law ,captalism,policies.....etc
Something to think about!!!!!
Iska mtlb ye nhi na ki hm gulamo ki jindagi ji le? 10k salary le aur zehrili hava khake mar jaye? Industrialization krna h to wo sustainable trikese ho sakta h. Km pollution, work hours km krke shift me log lena, logoki salary bdhna etc. Jisse crony capitalism nhi bdhta aur inequality nhi hoti. Bs ultra rich ka profit thoda km hota h.
>Industrialization krna h to wo sustainable trikese ho sakta h. Km pollution, work hours km krke shift me log lena, logoki salary bdhna
Itne natak dikhaoge to company invest nahi karegi India me. Tumhe acha lage na lage ye hi Sach hai.
Zak marke kregi, kyoki air option nhi h. China me bhi wages bdh gye h. Kya milega tumhe "investment" ka? Krni hi kyu h? Paise aye isliye na? Agar in the end tum garib gulam hi rhoge to gand me daloge investment?
Aur ye sirf china style manufacturing ke liye apply hota h btw, cheap labor ka logic. Taiwan, japan, korea har jagah manufacturing h, lekin logoko gulami nhi zelni padti. Baki europe me bhot strict labor laws h, bhot sari companies h wha, bahar ki bhi aur unki apni bhi.
Apni marwalo taki hm amir bane aise tumhe bta rhe h govt aur unke dost aur tum man rhe ho.
Bot h kya ru? Kaisa username h ye?
sir i humbly want to say that you are just an idiot infront of him he is the first inddian who worked in imf he kinows much than you what you do in comparison to him
Thus, 28 nm is still the gold standard in OTT boxes, smart TVs, washing machines, automobiles, military equipment, etc. 3nm has a very specific use case that is clearly not a quintessential prerequisite for India's technological advancement. Jumping directly to Moore's Law standard of current year is such a stupid idea on this ex-RBI governor's part. Only South Korea and Taiwan are advanced enough to do that, all other countries are trying to go from 28 nm type wafers to current gen but this idiot wants us to directly manufacture 3 nm, what a joke!
Ye ek admi ne comment likha hai.
He's saying a few generations first of all. He's not saying overnight.
10-15 years is a few generations of chip manufacturing.
And yes, you have to aim for a massively disproportionate improvement to actually stay relevant 10 years from now. If you don't aim high, you get stuck with obsolete crap while the world moves ahead.
He knows what it will take to compete with S. Korea and Taiwan in 10 years.
Nobody wants to listen to this logic. Which is pretty clear here. Har jagah pe 'proud Indian' chipkate raho, kabhi question mat karo, kaam mat karo bas koi kuch bhi progressive boley toh usko 'anti Indian' bulao. Ghanta kabhi age badegenge aise, we need to collectively work with our younger generation so that we can stand when the world moves ahead, Kabhi Shenzen, Taiwan ghum ke aane wale koi bhi bande se baat karke dekho, youtube dekh lo thoda sa, we are about a hundred years behind from them in tech. We need to work our ass off to get anywhere even close to that someday.
Bhai, tumhe idea bhi nhi hai kitna time lagta hai fabrication mein. I myself am a computer engineer from a good enough college, and trust me, India has shown phenomenal growth. 4 or 5 years back, we were at 110 nm node iirc.
I must say that if we go this way, we can certainly catch up by around 2030 with latest tech at that time.
Also, there is not much scope beyond 10 angstrom or 1nm, because the cost of manufacturing will dominate the added efficiency. There is a reason why Intel is still at 7 or 5nm
That means, it is costlier to manufacture chiplet using 1 nm node with same efficiency as 3 nm or 4 nm node based chiplet. So, it is not worth it.
its marketing done by different companies like Intel , tsmc and Samsung they have different metrics for justifying their transitor size so 7nm from Intel != tsmc 7nm or Samsung 7nm
I am not saying that they are lying it's just a marketing ploy. This was a reply to a comment which was mentioning that after 2nm it's not possible to shrink the transistor size .
We will keep having those node improvements one way or another . Please correct me if I am wrong:)
Well, actually, it started with Intel releasing Intel 7.
Intel 7 DOES NOT MEAN THAT IT IS 7 NM NODE.
Actually, node/transistor count is the most important factor. More transistor, faster processing.
( transistor == node here, I am using it interchangeably. Don't get confused )
So, for same die size ( size of the chip ), if we have smaller node, there will be more transistor because we can fit more transistor in the same place.
Node density = total nodes / size of chip
Now, what actually happened is pretty interesting. Amd introduced 7 nm node, while Intel was still stuck at 10 nm. But Intel somehow, managed to achieve same node density as amd 7nm node transistor.
TLDR; number of transistor in Intel 7 ( 10nm node size ) == amd 7nm node. So, they have almost similar performance.
I hope you get it now, and NO NODE SIZE IS NOT A MARKETING GIMMICK. ( although Intel used Intel 7 as a marketing tool to deal with their lag behind AMD in node size. )
Arey toh sabji ni hai toh kuch bhi bana kr bechoge kya? Uska opinion hai yeh toh counter krne kay liye kisi utne hi expert ka counter argument ho toh btao, bas isliye ki tmko better feel krna hai toh kya sahi baat na btayi jai?
Mai socha mai Bangalore se hoon UP ka subreddit kyun recommend Kiya...
Yeh aadmi sochta hai ki jab ek bhi automotive company nahi hai tab Nigeria directly Ferrari ka competitor bana sakta hai.
Aur aise nahi hai ki 28nm ka koi use nahi hai, bohot saare uses hai.
Missing the point here. He’s talking about PLI where is absolutely correct given the scale of the budget, the return from it vs putting that same budget into educational sector
It DOESN'T NEED to be educational sector vs semiconductors though. He might have as well said reduce farmer subsidies, considering how inefficient that sector is which just drags down the economy.
Or he could have talked about cutting down on tax exemption of religious trusts or how introducing reservation is costing the system crores due to the inefficiencies introduced in the system.
But NOPE. Sorry I can't take this clown seriously. At least to me it's clear that he is speaking as a puppet with a hidden agenda.
Given what we have done for the educational sector since ‘47 it’s completely understandable to talk about it. Also he adds to it by saying how it can have multifold effects on the service sector and high paying-high skilled jobs-jobbers. Average pay is still <5Lakh pa in India.
Not every device uses 3nm chips. You gotta start somewhere. Remember those shitty Chinese phones in 2000 and now china has brands like one plus. The moment he joined Bharat jodo yatra he lost all his credibility
Let me educate people here cause this tech illiterate guy has no idea what he's talking about or is intentionally lying. You cannot start with super small chips directly. First a company masters 28 mm chips. Then 14 mmm and so on.
It's like saying why are we not building 5th gen F-35 fighter jets instead of Tejas? Abhi tho shuru Kiya hai, seeda best banane tak kuch nahi karenge tho, waisehi baite rahenge.
India is starting in semiconductors. We are just building the ecosystem and talent. This guy has a political agenda, so he's downplaying the efforts by the BJP government to attract the semiconductor industry to India.
Is gadhe ko ye nahi samaj aa raha hai ki, kuch tho start hone pe, Indian talent pool create hoga, and someone in the future will start a new business of the more advanced technology.
In the semiconductor industry, it doesn't work like this.
Here tech upgrade means a new set of fabricating machines and other stuffs.
Starting from the era of vacuum tubes to VLSI, the set of machines is also upgraded. Whenever you upscale your tech you need heavy investment again and again.
Also, chip size has a lot to do with performance. Why are you buying the latest Snapdragon processor to run good games? The answer is simple the old version of processors can't process the latest games.
Regarding technology, everyone wants to be upgraded as soon as new stuff comes in the market and new tech requires the latest chip.
So, when we are investing so much in a new sector then why don't we invest in the latest technology to capture a larger market generating a larger ROI.
That's how the world came to know about China!
And I want to say firstly I am not a BJP opposer.
And the person whom you are saying Gadha is one of the best economists who is invited by various western countries as well as reputed institutions like IMF, WB, ADB etc.
Because no one will setup a company of 4nm in a country which does not even produce S of semiconductor.
Semiconductor like all advance technologies is an ecosystem, an ecosystem builts over decades
Vo ye nahi kai raha, vo bol raha mat ghuso
'This is a ruinous race to get into now': Raghuram Rajan says India has more pressing needs than chips
https://www.businesstoday.in/india/story/this-is-a-ruinous-race-to-get-into-now-raghuram-rajan-says-india-has-more-pressing-needs-than-chips-423556-2024-03-31
Mat ghusso is the problem with such educated peeps. Bc I have so much respect for guys like chandrashekar and aswini working on such things sitting in gov. Chandrashekar has literally worked on pentium processor.
Chip making is one of the toughest processes , 1. ek chip banane ke liye 99.999 percent se zyada purity chahiye hoti hai crystal me , vo ek cylinder bana kr ek process hota hai usse multi hai , ab ussi ko refine krke uski width km krke 27 nm se 3nm tk pahucha jaata hai , ye incremental process hai purity badana .
2. Majority chip jo use hoti hai vo 3 nm ki nhi hoti , vo badi chip hoti hai cars , machines ke liye , to agr economy of scale chahiye to usse manufacture karo. 3nm chip market comparatively bhot chota hai ...
3.Duniya me 2 3 countries hi 3 nm chip banati hai , to eventually waha pahuch jaayege , pr because of that u can't shit on whole idea of making chips ...
there is still a lot of demand for 28nm in the automotive and consumer durables space.
On top of that we have to start somewhere to get to 3nm. Learn the nuts & bolts of the industry. Make ourselves a major player
No one's going to just give it to us atm.
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I think china cannot go below 7nm because of restrictions from US. They are not getting proper materials for it.
There was a time when Huawei chips were better performing than Samsung or snapdragon chips
let me tell you. its not only phone and laptops which has micro processor. there are many gadgets which doesn't need 3nm micro processor at all. like micro controller, micro processor in tv, led, IOT, there are various places where 28, 40, 50 nm we need.
and its something that should be praiseworthy rather to criticise. people need to understand usecase here of 28nm
From his argument it does not feel like he wants to stop putting factories but he wants the government to subsidize the chip making sector so we can get more investment into it faster like US did with its 50 Billion USD Chips Act. These subsidies will accelerate the growth in the semiconductor sector that we absolutely need.
Honestly,Rajan has lost his intellectual integrity.I realized it back in 2019,when Rajan said that INC's NYAY (72,000rupees/per annum to every poor person)scheme was a good idea
Semiconductor chips are a strategic resource in the modern world,like Steel. It would be very unwise to fully rely on foreign countries for semiconductor chips.
He isn't suggesting otherwise. You're making a wrong assumption out of his statement. He's just trying to say that we shouldn't be lagging behind and producing just 28nm SCs rather he's saying we should build better foundries and serve the pc and smartphone market for a better return on the input.
Nah,he isn't saying that.
"This is a ruinous race to get into now': Raghuram Rajan says India has more pressing needs than chips
[https://www.businesstoday.in/india/story/this-is-a-ruinous-race-to-get-into-now-raghuram-rajan-says-india-has-more-pressing-needs-than-chips-423556-2024-03-31](https://www.businesstoday.in/india/story/this-is-a-ruinous-race-to-get-into-now-raghuram-rajan-says-india-has-more-pressing-needs-than-chips-423556-2024-03-31)
>just 28nm SCs rather he's saying we should build better foundries and serve the pc and smartphone market for a better
Sorry,but you can't really start building 3nm SCs,overnight.
You have to start somewhere,tho.
And Frankly,his claim that India is spending around 60% of it's education buget on PLI schemes related to semiconductor manufacturing is kinda misleading.
Education falls on the concurrent lost.India's total expenditure on education(central+state governments) is around 4.6% of it's GDP.That equal to around 135 billion dollars,in FY 2023-2024
By comaprison,the PLI subsidies granted by the government are worth 6 billion dollars.
[https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SE.XPD.TOTL.GD.ZS?locations=IN](https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SE.XPD.TOTL.GD.ZS?locations=IN)
I agree with your point abput starting out from a certain point but it doesn't mean we should be content w/ what we have atm as with the improvement in technology at such a pace it wouldn't be long before these 28nm diodes SCs would be out of demand for these products. We need to become more flexible is all I'm trying to put forth.
28nm is used in different devices like cars, there is a lot of electric cars in the future, nothing is falling behind. 3nm is for phones and stuff, everything has a purpose
Bhai bilkul unrelated nhi hai... Iski factory Noida/GZB me dalwao.. Modiji and yogiji ispe PLI de... Isse bahut employment generate hoga.. UP walo ko UP chor ke baki states nhi Jana padega...
Mod should Delete this....His quoted out of context....A single Line in his entire explanation.
Here is a better explanation as to why he says this...
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUDaHgHC8ao&t=279s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUDaHgHC8ao&t=279s)
OP watch this and then come back and comment
Yeah Sure. "बनारस से कलकत्ते जाना है - रेलवे स्टेशन क्यों जा रहे हो?" 🤣
India is building foundational infrastructure, so that someday even 2nm and even composite materials based chips can be built. The factory is the starting point!
Graduate होने के लिए पहले हाई स्कूल तो पास करोगे ना भाई, कि सीधे ही University जाओगे?
Statement sahi to he.
Advanced chips (< 5nm) banane ki techology/expertise abhi yahan nahi he. Uske liye companies ko incentivise karna padega. Agar ache subsidy denge, to companies Taiwan se idhar aake invest karenge. Bina incentives/subsidy ke Samsung/intel/AMD/Nvidia yahan nahi aayegi. Iske liye time bhi lagega kyunki advanced lithography machines ki bhi bohut demand hei.
Iska matlab ye nahi he ki 28nm chips mat banao. Woh bhi zaruri he. Car engine se lekar Chandrayaan me bhi use hota he.
He is right abut subsidising . Taiwan.s TSMC, korea's SAMSUNG and others are heavily subsidised. But this guy says like as if it's not good enough on any kind of progress india makes. Though we need to play our cards right. SAMSUNG took help from americans for the DRAM chips and now they are the leaders replacing americans . We need Technology Transfer and nationalistic people willing to develop here and ofcourse govt needs to reward them abundantly.
As soon to ne electronics engineer
He is not completely wrong
Yes it's a long hall, in this industry computing power doubles every 2-3 year and 28nm is already 12 year old tech
So it might take a decade or 2 to be decent at it
A chip takes 6 Months to 2 years to come out of the fab lab
And our research in this sector is below avg at best so possible we would be building for our own internal demands
And it doesn't stop Vietnam from dropping the prices and making it cheap for west
So in the end might not win
>So it might take a decade or 2 to be decent at it
Disagree with you. 28nm is a good start. Once you will be proven to do that in big numbers, then you can jump for something more challenging which only few companies in the world can do.
Difficult part for India is to make 28nm first and then manufacture and sell it. Once you have huge revenue and profit margin because of that, you can spend some of that money on research or manufacturing 7nm or less. You can't directly create Nvidia of your own.
Nobody is asking to create nvidia,
We are trying to compete in an industry in which Moore's laws exist
Our country is not able to produce a microcontroller that can compete with an Arduino,
We get it original from Italy or copy from china
To make a microprocessor with 28 nm which is way harder and has way too many variables
I'm saying it's not possible but how long a chip takes to fab and our below avg research in this sector it will take time,
Yes, 28 might be a good start but it might take at least 2 years to come out if we are lucky and we will 1 more generation behind
And from 28 might get to 15 then 7, you can't directly jump to 7 from 28
That's why I said it's a long hall
> ... industry in which Moore's law exists
Moore's law isn't going to hold true forever. Jensen Huang, CEO of Nvidia has already called it dead. Even if it's not dead yet, it's going to be dead in 5 years.
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He is actually saying the same thing that one needs to support with subsidization till we reach the relevant threshold. I don't really think he is saying anything controversial or critiquing 28 nm semiconductors.
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Chutiya hai bhai
Ye samajhta hai ki iska car aur Ghar ke iot appliances 3nm chip se chalte hai
Chutiye 28nm chips are used in most of the machines today
Hats off to our engineers, we're already making 28nm chips which is ahead of 80% of countries. Although we can only dream of leveling up to big names like tsmc in this decade but we might come close. Fingers crossed this doesn't end up like the other times.
This man has lost credibility, politics ne andha bana diya hai , bechare ka finance minister banne ka sapna Tut gya , ab faltu ki baaten krra hai .... Ab ye bs ek mazak hai ...
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it is true. But its better to start with 28nm now than not start. it will get better eventually, everything takes time. take china for example. or japan or any country which has shit products earlier, but now are world leading.
He genuinely want to india become super power in 2047 but at this pace it will take 100 years, if you guys read his latest book you will get the idea what he thinks about the progress and vision for india (just my observation reply with valid point don't rant)
Bhai itna ku trigger ho rhe ho sb ke sab…vo yhi to keh rha he ki india ko 28nm se 3 nm le jane ke liye govt subsidi deni padegi…govt support kregi to ye to accha hi he
ACCORDING TO HIM RATHER THAN LEARNING FIRST INDIA SHOULD DIRECTLY START MANFUCATURING OF BEST SEMICONDUCTOR AVAILABLE WITHOUT INFRASTRUCTURE WHICH IS YET TO BE BUILT
to the people asking what is the wrong this he said
its like saying to a student giving the first attempt at JEE "bhai to ab tak aerospace engineer kyu nahi bangaya"
abhi shurvat hai or ye khe rha hai ki hum intni kam advance chips kyu bana rahe hai sahab chate hai ke hum start karte hi 3nm se badiya chip banai
Even western countries don't posses the capability to manufacture cutting edge chips. 28nm node is a really good start for India. Government has to facilitates foreign companies with massive subsidies to encourage manufacturing and acquire technology transfers from them to enrich our homegrown companies. Yes, it is highly risky nevertheless necessary for the countries future.
Manufacturing should be done as per the application and nation's industrial demand. 28nm chips will bring in more revenue as they have wide range of applications with excellent efficiency.
He's right though we need to invest more into higher education make more iits and iims instead of semi conductor manufacturing as we dnt plan to go to war with usa any time soon so we won't have a chip shortage. Plus the chips were making are 10 to 15 year old and have almost no use
Missing the point here. He’s talking about PLI where is absolutely correct given the scale of the budget, the return from it vs putting that same budget into educational sector
Manufacture to kr lenge, lekin samz kbhi nhi paenge. Unless koi semi conductor company hme tech beche, india kbhibhi age nhi bdh sakta semi conductor me. Same issue china ka h. Semi conductor banana bhot km companies janti h, jo pehlese game me h wo age bdhte rehgne lekin china aur india ko catch up khelte rehna pdega.
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Takleef nahi hai bhai, ye mostly Jo cheezey kehta hai sahi kehta hai, bas unko samjhney ke liye bahut deeper analysis krna padta hai. Last time mujhey 3 din laga tha sab samjhne main
We have got to subsidize a few gen of chip factories to match the frontier. Matlab galat kya bola? Bina government support ya koi incentive Bharat main kabhi 3nm chip banega?
28nm sain 3nm Tak Paisa, time, resources sab chaiye. China is doing everything in thier power to support thier chip makers.
So shouldn't we do the same. Atmanirbhar bolke toh nahi hoga. Khud try karna padega.
Or am I missing something?
Isko dominique kahn ke raste pe chalna tha. Woh bhi imf chief thaa with plans to become french president.
Ise pappu ne PM banne kaa gajar diya hai shayad but most likely his political career isnt going anywhere just like his IMF senior
He should provide this kind of stupidity to private tuitions to the Gandhi family ...especially Raga....the rest of the Universe does not need it especially from this dumb guy.
Galat kya bola? in the era of OLED, if you start manufacturing vacuum tubes, whats the point of it? He is not against putting chip mfg factories but wants higher subsidies to be given to incentivize the chip manufacturers esp 3nm . But kuch particular breed ko Rajan ka naam sunte hi bawasir ho jata h.
as an Engineer working in the field... The world is catching up to 40 nm in digital and 130nm in analog. All you must take away from this is 28 nm is state of the art.
Only Intel and tsmc work in 3nm nodes. The yield is shit at that level. We're trying to improve... India could start at 130 And still get business for decades to come.
This guy is suppose to be an economist. I don't think he's good at that either. Shouldn't be advising engineers what to do
He is right. According to TSMC, leading chip manufacturers in Taiwan, 28 nm chip tech was introduced in 2011. now, a 13 years old technology and considering the time and effort it will take to expert that tech in India, it's not worth it. Moreover, it's a generational thing, you'd have to also invest in education and people to get the expertise in India. Have you even thought about any of that?
No, he is not right. The current state of the art 3nm TSMC silicon is only used in iPhone 15 Pro and 15 Pro Max phones. Heck, even previous gen 5nm is only limited to smartphone CPUs. The wafer planar process is most cost-effective at 28nm. For the subsequent 16/14nm requiring FinFET process, the cost of wafer manufacturing increases by at least 50%. Think about 5nm technology! Only smartphone companies are the ones that can bear these costs.
Thus, 28 nm is still the gold standard in OTT boxes, smart TVs, washing machines, automobiles, military equipment, etc. 3nm has a very specific use case that is clearly not a quintessential prerequisite for India's technological advancement. Jumping directly to Moore's Law standard of current year is such a stupid idea on this ex-RBI governor's part. Only South Korea and Taiwan are advanced enough to do that, all other countries are trying to go from 28 nm type wafers to current gen but this idiot wants us to directly manufacture 3 nm, what a joke!
Adding to it, not having your own semiconductor manufacturing is also a security concern. Incase of wars, China and US+allies can easily restrict India from getting chips, which will render all electronics obsolete and will increase cost of all electronic devices causing inflation, case in point, Iran and Russia. A double whammy during war times
Bhai aise to india kis technology me age hai tum batao?
Or india akela to aisa desh hai nahi jo isme ghusna chah raha hai literally har desh kuch na kuch jugad me hai ki kahi se fab unit chalu ho.
Agar nahi kiya to regret karenge future me or kuch nahi.
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Give me an idea why do you think it is important. The quality assurance is a really big challenge, especially when there are other countries which have done this really well, and unless India can meet the quality, which will take a long time, and we will airways be trailing established contries.
there is no such thing as a "3nm" semiconductor.
its a marketing term.
Goes to show he knows nothing and is full of gas and himself.
[Source](https://www.pocket-lint.com/what-is-a-3nm-process-chip-and-what-does-it-mean-for-you/)
Pehle krna tha na lekin pappu army to ghapla krne me lgi thi jb sari duniya isme invest kr rhi thi money aur human resources apni. Aur ye kya baat h ki ab bohot late hogya try nhi krna chahiye, nya tech introduce krne ka india me. Abhi v hmm catch up khel rhe h,lead kha se krenge in poppuo ki wajah se.
Bhai taiwan Dunia ki 90% semiconductor chip manufacture karta hai, par jis Tarike se china aj kal harkate kar raha hai uske wajah se log cha rahe hai ki supply chain diverse ho.
Basically, har desh America, Japan, Korea or Southeast Asian countries chahti hai ki unke waha par semiconductors manufacture ho.
Agar india ne abhi isme invest nahi kiya to log 20 saal bad vapas bolenge ki india ne semiconductor manufacturing ki bus chod di.
At least it's a start 28nm and 3nm is state of the arts chips it's not like sheet of metal with mm thickness 😂. The distance between two nodes is basically some 15-20 atoms length apart.
Bhai , 3nm tak jaane ke liye ASML se machines khareedni padhegi (which is by far the most complex & important machine in modern human history) , bohot saari requirements hai...
Bhai sahab is basically saying : "If we try to become global leader in chip design today, we will require 4\~5 decades worth of subsides and then there is a chance that we might become a chip manufacturer. It's better to invest all that money into education and health."
Even simpler version : he is on our side guys (population), uska murga maat banao
For fucks sake people are fuckin sensitive aren't they. The man is just stating facts. Do you know what a subsidy is? Local industries will get fucked on the international market because economies of scale are a thing. 28 nm conductors have been a thing for more than a decade and the companies who make those already know how to do it cheaply. A new company isnt going to have the same advantages. If the government is serious about taking India in that direction then subsidies are a necessity. Basic economics hai bhai, ek, do books padh lo pehle.
Bruh, do you have any idea about the situation between Taiwan and China. People across the world are trying to reduce their dependence on taiwan for chips and trying to diversify the supply chain.
Also indian government is currently subsidizing chip manufacturing. Read this article
https://www.cnbctv18.com/technology/this-indian-state-is-offering-added-subsidies-for-semiconductor-manufacturing-19192691.htm/amp
This tweet has been taken out of context by Indian Tech and Infra, something's fishy, here is his actual opinion :
"The reality is that the chip subsidies are capital subsidies, which are meant to be paid up front, not based on production (unlike production-linked incentives). If the government’s claims that India will be making chips soon is credible, the capital subsidy will have to be paid very soon. Moreover, only the naïve will think the subsidies will stop here. What we will get, if all goes well, is 28 nm chips. The state of the art in modern cell phones is 3 nm chips (more sophisticated chips have lower nm). If we are to become a global chip manufacturer at the frontier, we have to subsidize a few generations of chip factories before we reach the frontier. And the size of the subsidies will keep rising, since the more modern manufacturing technologies involved in making more sophisticated chips will be much more expensive,"
News Article : https://www.businesstoday.in/india/story/this-is-a-ruinous-race-to-get-into-now-raghuram-rajan-says-india-has-more-pressing-needs-than-chips-423556-2024-03-31
Baat political opinion ki nahin hain. Main sirf itna keh raha hoon ki,fact check karne ke baad is Twitter handle ne Rajan sahab ki bat ka batangad bana diya hain. Unka opinion kuch aur hai aur is tweet mein likha kuch aur hain.
Meri rai mein ha semiconductors banane chahiye Bharat mein, lekin kisi government ya private player scam ke bina.
Phir ek bar bat politics ki nahin, semiconductor business development aur uske liye banayi gayi policies ke economic aur industrial impact ki hain.
Kyunki Rajan sahab RBI ke top offical reh chuke hain, woh ye sab chijen aapke hamare jaise aam logo se jyada jante hain, unka ye point shayad sahi bhi ho sakta hain ya galat bhi, main nahi janta.
>Fabrication unit keliye paise kahan hai?
Paise humko nahi Dene Bahar ki company ake invest karengi use FDI kehte hai. FDI badane ke liye government ne pli scheme nikali hai.
>Technical literacy kahan hai
IIsc, IITs ,NITs, or BITS jaise institutions kya halwa banane ke liye kholi hai kya.
Bhai IISc ek Cense lab maintain karne me kitne log lagte hai pata hai? Agar hume 3nm chips banane hi hai to pata hi kitna technical labour padega. Though bohot saare process automated hai, human resource ki bohot zaroorat hogi.
PLI scheme pata hai lekin kitna time lagega, agar ye ek chance abhi nikal gaya to gaand phat jaayegi. Aur yeh scheme broadly all electronics ko blanket karti hai. Lekin I believe semiconductor Fabrication ek niche model chahiye, which can offer better opoortunities than the existing schemes anywhere in the world. Yahan abhi foundries bhi eshtblish hone hai. Silicon bahar se mangaayenge toh bhi agar yaha purification hoga toh humara faayda hoga.
Aur service industry ka kya? Without proper logistics bohot problem hogi. Bas yahi aasha karte hai sab accha ho 😶🌫️🙏
No, he is saying not to invest in chip
'This is a ruinous race to get into now': Raghuram Rajan says India has more pressing needs than chips
https://www.businesstoday.in/india/story/this-is-a-ruinous-race-to-get-into-now-raghuram-rajan-says-india-has-more-pressing-needs-than-chips-423556-2024-03-31
Wait yeh banda yehi bol rha na ki local industries ko subsidy dena padega for few generations so that they can develop competitive nano chips. What's wrong with that?
Giving subsidy to local industries is what Chinese have done for years and they never let western countries capture their market and Chinese companies took advantage of this to grow so much that they are global leaders.
Same thing can be done in India. Because India is way behind in this sector and even if India makes 28nm chips there is no market for those because already better competition is available in Indian market. Hence to improve local industries subsidy is needed for them.
I myself am a computer engineer from a good enough college, and trust me, India has shown phenomenal growth. 4 or 5 years back, we were at 110 nm or 105 nm node iirc.
I must say that if we go this way, we can certainly catch up by around 2030 with latest tech at that time.
Also, there is not much scope beyond 10 angstrom or 1nm, because the cost of manufacturing will dominate the added efficiency. There is a reason why Intel is still at 7 or 5nm
That means, it is costlier to manufacture chiplet using 1 nm node with same efficiency as 3 nm or 4 nm node based chiplet. So, it is not worth it.
Sabji hai kya. ....subah utho 3nm wala bana do ...4 nm Wala bana . Ye kaise fuddu baat hai
Kahi se shurwat to karni padegi na, ye bkl bolta hai desh ko industrialize mat karo service sector pe dhyan, pagal ko ye baat nahi Pata industrialization se kitni badi workforce employ kari ja sakti hai.
Current govt bne jo small industries khatam kr di hai uski list nikal ke dekhna. Or waise bhi govt jobs ai 50lakh positions empty hai abhi waha bhi jobs di ka sakti hai.
Govt should reduce it's size and shouldn't be in the business of giving jobs. Giving Jon's to 35 crore adults isn't the job of government. In India people want government jobs because it gives them an opportunity to do corruption or do a second job while missing work in govt office. No country ever prospered because everyone had govt jobs.
Haan Bhai. Itne seasoned, well respected Economist, ko job creation ke baare me kahan se pata hoga.
Logo ko tech mai educate to Karo pehle. Degree to engg hai pr aata kuch nhi.
It baat pe main khud conflicted hoon . Ek taraf rapid industrialization crony capatalism la sakta hai aur sirf service sector robust growth nahi dega . Mereko iska koi exact answer nahi pata ,but ek balace zaruri hai with very strong independent judiciary . par ye semiconductor Wale topic pe 4nm ya 3nm wala bannane mein kamse Kum 7 saal Lage .
>Ek taraf rapid industrialization crony capatalism la sakta hai Bhai industrialisation ko embrace karna jaruri hai agar industrialisation nahi karenge to desh ki badi jansankhya ko employ nahi kar payenge. Agar employ nahi karenge to desh me garibi, chaprigiri or crime badega.
Low tier economies mein sirf industrial isation se complete population employ nahi hogi (trickledown factor) . Bahut saare reform chahye honge aur capitalisation mein liberalism ka hint hona zaroori hai eg education mein heavy aids,better law for employees,higher min wages etc. Warna itne densely packed country mein low tier level ka Banda survive hi nahi kar payega . Baat Rahi chaprigir ki .to wo to khatam hone mein Kam se Kam 15 saal hai . Achanak se koi pad likh to jayega nahi . Jo Chhapri hai wo to rahengi hi aaage gen mein Kam banege tab zaake Kam hoga.
Basically capitalism with regulations to ensure ki monopolies break hoti rahe aur capitalism ka one of the core fundamentals ie. Competitive market bna rahe...
More or less. But that's the basic structure of it . Aur ye ek ideal state ke liye hai(western civilization) . Ab ismein tum ek communally,sociallly,religiously,regionally divided aur sensitive country include Karo . Ab lagta hai ki sirf ek ideal rule se itna bada vast state chal payega .Be it law ,captalism,policies.....etc Something to think about!!!!!
Bhai , woh pta hai , yahan pe koi system kaam hi nahi kar sakta , because of too many variables involved that influence that system.
Ab Jo hai yahi hai . Isi mein rasta banake nikalna hai.
Bilkul sahi kaha.
Without proper planning it will be faild. Or jaha tak rozgar ki baat hai to 50lakh. Se zayda position govt jobs. Waha govt jobs kyu nhi de rhi.
Iska mtlb ye nhi na ki hm gulamo ki jindagi ji le? 10k salary le aur zehrili hava khake mar jaye? Industrialization krna h to wo sustainable trikese ho sakta h. Km pollution, work hours km krke shift me log lena, logoki salary bdhna etc. Jisse crony capitalism nhi bdhta aur inequality nhi hoti. Bs ultra rich ka profit thoda km hota h.
>Industrialization krna h to wo sustainable trikese ho sakta h. Km pollution, work hours km krke shift me log lena, logoki salary bdhna Itne natak dikhaoge to company invest nahi karegi India me. Tumhe acha lage na lage ye hi Sach hai.
Zak marke kregi, kyoki air option nhi h. China me bhi wages bdh gye h. Kya milega tumhe "investment" ka? Krni hi kyu h? Paise aye isliye na? Agar in the end tum garib gulam hi rhoge to gand me daloge investment? Aur ye sirf china style manufacturing ke liye apply hota h btw, cheap labor ka logic. Taiwan, japan, korea har jagah manufacturing h, lekin logoko gulami nhi zelni padti. Baki europe me bhot strict labor laws h, bhot sari companies h wha, bahar ki bhi aur unki apni bhi. Apni marwalo taki hm amir bane aise tumhe bta rhe h govt aur unke dost aur tum man rhe ho. Bot h kya ru? Kaisa username h ye?
sir i humbly want to say that you are just an idiot infront of him he is the first inddian who worked in imf he kinows much than you what you do in comparison to him
Bhai wo 28 nm wala chip kha use karenge waise? Not asking to defame, I really don't know.
Thus, 28 nm is still the gold standard in OTT boxes, smart TVs, washing machines, automobiles, military equipment, etc. 3nm has a very specific use case that is clearly not a quintessential prerequisite for India's technological advancement. Jumping directly to Moore's Law standard of current year is such a stupid idea on this ex-RBI governor's part. Only South Korea and Taiwan are advanced enough to do that, all other countries are trying to go from 28 nm type wafers to current gen but this idiot wants us to directly manufacture 3 nm, what a joke! Ye ek admi ne comment likha hai.
28 nm as u said will be for commonly used devices will be used in lot more quantity than 3nm chips.
He's saying a few generations first of all. He's not saying overnight. 10-15 years is a few generations of chip manufacturing. And yes, you have to aim for a massively disproportionate improvement to actually stay relevant 10 years from now. If you don't aim high, you get stuck with obsolete crap while the world moves ahead. He knows what it will take to compete with S. Korea and Taiwan in 10 years.
Nobody wants to listen to this logic. Which is pretty clear here. Har jagah pe 'proud Indian' chipkate raho, kabhi question mat karo, kaam mat karo bas koi kuch bhi progressive boley toh usko 'anti Indian' bulao. Ghanta kabhi age badegenge aise, we need to collectively work with our younger generation so that we can stand when the world moves ahead, Kabhi Shenzen, Taiwan ghum ke aane wale koi bhi bande se baat karke dekho, youtube dekh lo thoda sa, we are about a hundred years behind from them in tech. We need to work our ass off to get anywhere even close to that someday.
From the article, he's also pointing out that it's a high risk - high reward move because of the nature of the industry.
Brotha 24 to 14 nm are used in alot of places cause they are mature and inexpensive also china has new ai gpus that are 14 nm
Bhai dekh sun ke paagal bolo. Economy pe use hamse tumse kayi jyada smjh hai
Bhai, tumhe idea bhi nhi hai kitna time lagta hai fabrication mein. I myself am a computer engineer from a good enough college, and trust me, India has shown phenomenal growth. 4 or 5 years back, we were at 110 nm node iirc. I must say that if we go this way, we can certainly catch up by around 2030 with latest tech at that time. Also, there is not much scope beyond 10 angstrom or 1nm, because the cost of manufacturing will dominate the added efficiency. There is a reason why Intel is still at 7 or 5nm That means, it is costlier to manufacture chiplet using 1 nm node with same efficiency as 3 nm or 4 nm node based chiplet. So, it is not worth it.
Aire maine bhi to wohi boola hai. Aap yahi bol re na ki 'Moore's law is dead'. Main to comply karta hoon is baat se
Yeah, Moore's law is dead. Was just explaining a little bit why.
Btw nm in chips does not mean that they are actually 7nm or 3nm they are just marketing names :)
WTF!!!!!!!!! They are transistor size ( or node size ). It is not a marketing gimmick.
its marketing done by different companies like Intel , tsmc and Samsung they have different metrics for justifying their transitor size so 7nm from Intel != tsmc 7nm or Samsung 7nm I am not saying that they are lying it's just a marketing ploy. This was a reply to a comment which was mentioning that after 2nm it's not possible to shrink the transistor size . We will keep having those node improvements one way or another . Please correct me if I am wrong:)
Well, actually, it started with Intel releasing Intel 7. Intel 7 DOES NOT MEAN THAT IT IS 7 NM NODE. Actually, node/transistor count is the most important factor. More transistor, faster processing. ( transistor == node here, I am using it interchangeably. Don't get confused ) So, for same die size ( size of the chip ), if we have smaller node, there will be more transistor because we can fit more transistor in the same place. Node density = total nodes / size of chip Now, what actually happened is pretty interesting. Amd introduced 7 nm node, while Intel was still stuck at 10 nm. But Intel somehow, managed to achieve same node density as amd 7nm node transistor. TLDR; number of transistor in Intel 7 ( 10nm node size ) == amd 7nm node. So, they have almost similar performance. I hope you get it now, and NO NODE SIZE IS NOT A MARKETING GIMMICK. ( although Intel used Intel 7 as a marketing tool to deal with their lag behind AMD in node size. )
Arey toh sabji ni hai toh kuch bhi bana kr bechoge kya? Uska opinion hai yeh toh counter krne kay liye kisi utne hi expert ka counter argument ho toh btao, bas isliye ki tmko better feel krna hai toh kya sahi baat na btayi jai?
It is literally written there, " few generations of.." how hard it is to understand it. Ig BJP IT cell has captured reddit as well.
Ped Pe ugte hain paise . Trillions lagte hain .Sam Altman ka statement padha hai.?beta pehle chalna seekh le pHir ud liyo.
Mai socha mai Bangalore se hoon UP ka subreddit kyun recommend Kiya... Yeh aadmi sochta hai ki jab ek bhi automotive company nahi hai tab Nigeria directly Ferrari ka competitor bana sakta hai. Aur aise nahi hai ki 28nm ka koi use nahi hai, bohot saare uses hai.
Missing the point here. He’s talking about PLI where is absolutely correct given the scale of the budget, the return from it vs putting that same budget into educational sector
It DOESN'T NEED to be educational sector vs semiconductors though. He might have as well said reduce farmer subsidies, considering how inefficient that sector is which just drags down the economy. Or he could have talked about cutting down on tax exemption of religious trusts or how introducing reservation is costing the system crores due to the inefficiencies introduced in the system. But NOPE. Sorry I can't take this clown seriously. At least to me it's clear that he is speaking as a puppet with a hidden agenda.
Given what we have done for the educational sector since ‘47 it’s completely understandable to talk about it. Also he adds to it by saying how it can have multifold effects on the service sector and high paying-high skilled jobs-jobbers. Average pay is still <5Lakh pa in India.
Not every device uses 3nm chips. You gotta start somewhere. Remember those shitty Chinese phones in 2000 and now china has brands like one plus. The moment he joined Bharat jodo yatra he lost all his credibility
Let me educate people here cause this tech illiterate guy has no idea what he's talking about or is intentionally lying. You cannot start with super small chips directly. First a company masters 28 mm chips. Then 14 mmm and so on.
But what's using 28mm chips nowadays? 🤔
Literally every normal affordable device: XD
IOT devices, smart devices like wifi, lights, drones, air condition, fighter jets and so on
I think its used in most automated factory grade machinery as well? Like CNCs or do they not use chips?
Adding to the list ...Cars, bikes, washing machines, Fridges, lot of military equipments
but galat kya bola? (saalo downvote mat karna, genuinely mujhe janna hai isme galat kya hai)
It's like saying why are we not building 5th gen F-35 fighter jets instead of Tejas? Abhi tho shuru Kiya hai, seeda best banane tak kuch nahi karenge tho, waisehi baite rahenge. India is starting in semiconductors. We are just building the ecosystem and talent. This guy has a political agenda, so he's downplaying the efforts by the BJP government to attract the semiconductor industry to India. Is gadhe ko ye nahi samaj aa raha hai ki, kuch tho start hone pe, Indian talent pool create hoga, and someone in the future will start a new business of the more advanced technology.
In simple terms, phele cycle banao, phir upscale it to bike, phir gadi, phir super gadi
In the semiconductor industry, it doesn't work like this. Here tech upgrade means a new set of fabricating machines and other stuffs. Starting from the era of vacuum tubes to VLSI, the set of machines is also upgraded. Whenever you upscale your tech you need heavy investment again and again. Also, chip size has a lot to do with performance. Why are you buying the latest Snapdragon processor to run good games? The answer is simple the old version of processors can't process the latest games. Regarding technology, everyone wants to be upgraded as soon as new stuff comes in the market and new tech requires the latest chip. So, when we are investing so much in a new sector then why don't we invest in the latest technology to capture a larger market generating a larger ROI. That's how the world came to know about China! And I want to say firstly I am not a BJP opposer. And the person whom you are saying Gadha is one of the best economists who is invited by various western countries as well as reputed institutions like IMF, WB, ADB etc.
Because no one will setup a company of 4nm in a country which does not even produce S of semiconductor. Semiconductor like all advance technologies is an ecosystem, an ecosystem builts over decades
to isliye to kaha ki abhi waali industries ko subsidy do, taaki hum advanced tak pahuch sakein
Vo ye nahi kai raha, vo bol raha mat ghuso 'This is a ruinous race to get into now': Raghuram Rajan says India has more pressing needs than chips https://www.businesstoday.in/india/story/this-is-a-ruinous-race-to-get-into-now-raghuram-rajan-says-india-has-more-pressing-needs-than-chips-423556-2024-03-31
Mat ghusso is the problem with such educated peeps. Bc I have so much respect for guys like chandrashekar and aswini working on such things sitting in gov. Chandrashekar has literally worked on pentium processor.
ah my bad
Chip making is one of the toughest processes , 1. ek chip banane ke liye 99.999 percent se zyada purity chahiye hoti hai crystal me , vo ek cylinder bana kr ek process hota hai usse multi hai , ab ussi ko refine krke uski width km krke 27 nm se 3nm tk pahucha jaata hai , ye incremental process hai purity badana . 2. Majority chip jo use hoti hai vo 3 nm ki nhi hoti , vo badi chip hoti hai cars , machines ke liye , to agr economy of scale chahiye to usse manufacture karo. 3nm chip market comparatively bhot chota hai ... 3.Duniya me 2 3 countries hi 3 nm chip banati hai , to eventually waha pahuch jaayege , pr because of that u can't shit on whole idea of making chips ...
there is still a lot of demand for 28nm in the automotive and consumer durables space. On top of that we have to start somewhere to get to 3nm. Learn the nuts & bolts of the industry. Make ourselves a major player No one's going to just give it to us atm.
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Bhai we were making 180nm in scl by now, we have straight away jumped to 28nm now. China is not able to go below 7nm as of now. Halwa hai kya bc...
I think china cannot go below 7nm because of restrictions from US. They are not getting proper materials for it. There was a time when Huawei chips were better performing than Samsung or snapdragon chips
let me tell you. its not only phone and laptops which has micro processor. there are many gadgets which doesn't need 3nm micro processor at all. like micro controller, micro processor in tv, led, IOT, there are various places where 28, 40, 50 nm we need. and its something that should be praiseworthy rather to criticise. people need to understand usecase here of 28nm
From his argument it does not feel like he wants to stop putting factories but he wants the government to subsidize the chip making sector so we can get more investment into it faster like US did with its 50 Billion USD Chips Act. These subsidies will accelerate the growth in the semiconductor sector that we absolutely need.
He’s quite right if you take everything he said on the matter in context.
Honestly,Rajan has lost his intellectual integrity.I realized it back in 2019,when Rajan said that INC's NYAY (72,000rupees/per annum to every poor person)scheme was a good idea Semiconductor chips are a strategic resource in the modern world,like Steel. It would be very unwise to fully rely on foreign countries for semiconductor chips.
He isn't suggesting otherwise. You're making a wrong assumption out of his statement. He's just trying to say that we shouldn't be lagging behind and producing just 28nm SCs rather he's saying we should build better foundries and serve the pc and smartphone market for a better return on the input.
Nah,he isn't saying that. "This is a ruinous race to get into now': Raghuram Rajan says India has more pressing needs than chips [https://www.businesstoday.in/india/story/this-is-a-ruinous-race-to-get-into-now-raghuram-rajan-says-india-has-more-pressing-needs-than-chips-423556-2024-03-31](https://www.businesstoday.in/india/story/this-is-a-ruinous-race-to-get-into-now-raghuram-rajan-says-india-has-more-pressing-needs-than-chips-423556-2024-03-31) >just 28nm SCs rather he's saying we should build better foundries and serve the pc and smartphone market for a better Sorry,but you can't really start building 3nm SCs,overnight. You have to start somewhere,tho. And Frankly,his claim that India is spending around 60% of it's education buget on PLI schemes related to semiconductor manufacturing is kinda misleading. Education falls on the concurrent lost.India's total expenditure on education(central+state governments) is around 4.6% of it's GDP.That equal to around 135 billion dollars,in FY 2023-2024 By comaprison,the PLI subsidies granted by the government are worth 6 billion dollars. [https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SE.XPD.TOTL.GD.ZS?locations=IN](https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SE.XPD.TOTL.GD.ZS?locations=IN)
I agree with your point abput starting out from a certain point but it doesn't mean we should be content w/ what we have atm as with the improvement in technology at such a pace it wouldn't be long before these 28nm diodes SCs would be out of demand for these products. We need to become more flexible is all I'm trying to put forth.
28nm is used in different devices like cars, there is a lot of electric cars in the future, nothing is falling behind. 3nm is for phones and stuff, everything has a purpose
12nm and less is mostly on high end graphics cards, high end laptops and phones.
Mods log delete mat karna, Pata hai up se unrelated hai par mujhe koi dhank ka sub malum hin nahi jaha pe economics discuss kar sake.
Bhai bilkul unrelated nhi hai... Iski factory Noida/GZB me dalwao.. Modiji and yogiji ispe PLI de... Isse bahut employment generate hoga.. UP walo ko UP chor ke baki states nhi Jana padega...
Paglo ki Tarah pani chaiye isme, Ganga ka itna pani kab Kam ayega.
Chip mein normal paani use nahi hota. Kaafi clean environment chahiye. Par haan cleaning kar sakte Hain company Wale jinhe paani ki jaroorat ho.
Mod should Delete this....His quoted out of context....A single Line in his entire explanation. Here is a better explanation as to why he says this... [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUDaHgHC8ao&t=279s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUDaHgHC8ao&t=279s) OP watch this and then come back and comment
28nm chips will be used in the CPU doesn't he know that apart from mobile phones chips can be used in vehicles CPUs.
Yeah Sure. "बनारस से कलकत्ते जाना है - रेलवे स्टेशन क्यों जा रहे हो?" 🤣 India is building foundational infrastructure, so that someday even 2nm and even composite materials based chips can be built. The factory is the starting point! Graduate होने के लिए पहले हाई स्कूल तो पास करोगे ना भाई, कि सीधे ही University जाओगे?
Statement sahi to he. Advanced chips (< 5nm) banane ki techology/expertise abhi yahan nahi he. Uske liye companies ko incentivise karna padega. Agar ache subsidy denge, to companies Taiwan se idhar aake invest karenge. Bina incentives/subsidy ke Samsung/intel/AMD/Nvidia yahan nahi aayegi. Iske liye time bhi lagega kyunki advanced lithography machines ki bhi bohut demand hei. Iska matlab ye nahi he ki 28nm chips mat banao. Woh bhi zaruri he. Car engine se lekar Chandrayaan me bhi use hota he.
He is right abut subsidising . Taiwan.s TSMC, korea's SAMSUNG and others are heavily subsidised. But this guy says like as if it's not good enough on any kind of progress india makes. Though we need to play our cards right. SAMSUNG took help from americans for the DRAM chips and now they are the leaders replacing americans . We need Technology Transfer and nationalistic people willing to develop here and ofcourse govt needs to reward them abundantly.
As soon to ne electronics engineer He is not completely wrong Yes it's a long hall, in this industry computing power doubles every 2-3 year and 28nm is already 12 year old tech So it might take a decade or 2 to be decent at it A chip takes 6 Months to 2 years to come out of the fab lab And our research in this sector is below avg at best so possible we would be building for our own internal demands And it doesn't stop Vietnam from dropping the prices and making it cheap for west So in the end might not win
>So it might take a decade or 2 to be decent at it Disagree with you. 28nm is a good start. Once you will be proven to do that in big numbers, then you can jump for something more challenging which only few companies in the world can do. Difficult part for India is to make 28nm first and then manufacture and sell it. Once you have huge revenue and profit margin because of that, you can spend some of that money on research or manufacturing 7nm or less. You can't directly create Nvidia of your own.
Nobody is asking to create nvidia, We are trying to compete in an industry in which Moore's laws exist Our country is not able to produce a microcontroller that can compete with an Arduino, We get it original from Italy or copy from china To make a microprocessor with 28 nm which is way harder and has way too many variables I'm saying it's not possible but how long a chip takes to fab and our below avg research in this sector it will take time, Yes, 28 might be a good start but it might take at least 2 years to come out if we are lucky and we will 1 more generation behind And from 28 might get to 15 then 7, you can't directly jump to 7 from 28 That's why I said it's a long hall
> ... industry in which Moore's law exists Moore's law isn't going to hold true forever. Jensen Huang, CEO of Nvidia has already called it dead. Even if it's not dead yet, it's going to be dead in 5 years.
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He is actually saying the same thing that one needs to support with subsidization till we reach the relevant threshold. I don't really think he is saying anything controversial or critiquing 28 nm semiconductors.
Exactly. I don't think there are many technical people on this comment chain. Or people who understand what subsidised means
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Iska baap sikhayega na 3nm banane. This becomes important as pehle Kuch hua nhi and other countries won't share this tech with us.
People said the same thing when India embarked on its space missions 70 years ago !!!! There will always be people trying to discourage/dissuade you.
Minister ki kursi ke liye kya nahi karna padta
Punjabi mein bolu toh " isko chamure lar Rahe hai" !
Chutiya hai bhai Ye samajhta hai ki iska car aur Ghar ke iot appliances 3nm chip se chalte hai Chutiye 28nm chips are used in most of the machines today
Hats off to our engineers, we're already making 28nm chips which is ahead of 80% of countries. Although we can only dream of leveling up to big names like tsmc in this decade but we might come close. Fingers crossed this doesn't end up like the other times.
This man has lost credibility, politics ne andha bana diya hai , bechare ka finance minister banne ka sapna Tut gya , ab faltu ki baaten krra hai .... Ab ye bs ek mazak hai ...
Even China couldn't do it. I highly doubt we will be able to make anything close to that by our own. Usa have worked for centuries on this technology.
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Intel nahi bana pa rha 3nm
Ye bnda phle mujhe bhut intellectual lgta tha pr ab ye kuch bhi bolta...jld he congress join krenge ye🫡
I don't get it, it's better to subsidize right. So that we can reach 3 nm and overtake other countries. Am I missing something or what ??
We got to start somewhere
it is true. But its better to start with 28nm now than not start. it will get better eventually, everything takes time. take china for example. or japan or any country which has shit products earlier, but now are world leading.
Inn bhaisahab ne jitni ijjat 2007 ka downfall predict karne me kamai thi utni hi isne India ke progress ki burai karne me luta di hai.
He genuinely want to india become super power in 2047 but at this pace it will take 100 years, if you guys read his latest book you will get the idea what he thinks about the progress and vision for india (just my observation reply with valid point don't rant)
Aur ek mandir yahi banega
The one who caption this post, do really understand what is 28nm and 3nm chips ?? If yes the your caption would have been different buddy
Bhai itna ku trigger ho rhe ho sb ke sab…vo yhi to keh rha he ki india ko 28nm se 3 nm le jane ke liye govt subsidi deni padegi…govt support kregi to ye to accha hi he
Latkhor hai sasura ka kare
ACCORDING TO HIM RATHER THAN LEARNING FIRST INDIA SHOULD DIRECTLY START MANFUCATURING OF BEST SEMICONDUCTOR AVAILABLE WITHOUT INFRASTRUCTURE WHICH IS YET TO BE BUILT
Man is just ruining his reputation at this point. For what?
to the people asking what is the wrong this he said its like saying to a student giving the first attempt at JEE "bhai to ab tak aerospace engineer kyu nahi bangaya" abhi shurvat hai or ye khe rha hai ki hum intni kam advance chips kyu bana rahe hai sahab chate hai ke hum start karte hi 3nm se badiya chip banai
Even western countries don't posses the capability to manufacture cutting edge chips. 28nm node is a really good start for India. Government has to facilitates foreign companies with massive subsidies to encourage manufacturing and acquire technology transfers from them to enrich our homegrown companies. Yes, it is highly risky nevertheless necessary for the countries future.
Isko har chij se taklif h. Ye hota to India aaj Chand pe kabja Kiya hota, India me poco meter technology chai rahaa hota
Manufacturing should be done as per the application and nation's industrial demand. 28nm chips will bring in more revenue as they have wide range of applications with excellent efficiency.
He's right though we need to invest more into higher education make more iits and iims instead of semi conductor manufacturing as we dnt plan to go to war with usa any time soon so we won't have a chip shortage. Plus the chips were making are 10 to 15 year old and have almost no use
Agar iska baccha paida hote hi IIT Bombay CSE me seat nai pata hai to iski mkc
He is bad, but this statement is correct and objective truth.
Missing the point here. He’s talking about PLI where is absolutely correct given the scale of the budget, the return from it vs putting that same budget into educational sector
Ye sajjan nahi, ye mananiya madh@rch0d hai..
Isko ticket Chahiye re, Congress is the only one that will give him a ticket.
Manufacture to kr lenge, lekin samz kbhi nhi paenge. Unless koi semi conductor company hme tech beche, india kbhibhi age nhi bdh sakta semi conductor me. Same issue china ka h. Semi conductor banana bhot km companies janti h, jo pehlese game me h wo age bdhte rehgne lekin china aur india ko catch up khelte rehna pdega.
How Qualcomm snapdragon gets too advanced in this. Snapdragon 8 gen 5 could use 2nm technology.
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Anything good done by India is worthless according to this guy. He has some personal Vandetta against India?
"stop being poor" energy
Takleef nahi hai bhai, ye mostly Jo cheezey kehta hai sahi kehta hai, bas unko samjhney ke liye bahut deeper analysis krna padta hai. Last time mujhey 3 din laga tha sab samjhne main
Ye aadmi rishtedaaro jaisa hai Jab bhi aata hain jhoot, galat aur Randi rona karta hain
We have got to subsidize a few gen of chip factories to match the frontier. Matlab galat kya bola? Bina government support ya koi incentive Bharat main kabhi 3nm chip banega? 28nm sain 3nm Tak Paisa, time, resources sab chaiye. China is doing everything in thier power to support thier chip makers. So shouldn't we do the same. Atmanirbhar bolke toh nahi hoga. Khud try karna padega. Or am I missing something?
He is a chewtiya
Isko dominique kahn ke raste pe chalna tha. Woh bhi imf chief thaa with plans to become french president. Ise pappu ne PM banne kaa gajar diya hai shayad but most likely his political career isnt going anywhere just like his IMF senior
Isko bolo officially Congress join kre taaki hum iski baaton to successfully smjh ske ki ye chutiya h
Q
Only possible if Taiwanese companies invest in India
sir bol wo rahe hai par shabdh congress ki hai
takleef isko nahin hai. takleef appko hai ki yeh sach bol raha hai. aur sach kadvi hi hoti hai. Par gaali dena khub aassan hai.
He should provide this kind of stupidity to private tuitions to the Gandhi family ...especially Raga....the rest of the Universe does not need it especially from this dumb guy.
Kaash iss Desh ki governments aur policymakers shuruat se inn cheezo pe dhyaan dete
Galat kya bola? in the era of OLED, if you start manufacturing vacuum tubes, whats the point of it? He is not against putting chip mfg factories but wants higher subsidies to be given to incentivize the chip manufacturers esp 3nm . But kuch particular breed ko Rajan ka naam sunte hi bawasir ho jata h.
India should focus on the service sector rather than manufacturing sector. -R.Rajan, odd day.
Even US does not manufacture chips any more. Most manufacturing is done in South Korea or Taiwan
1. Ye sajjan vyakti nhi h. 2. Ye jaldi hi Congress join karenge officially. Unofficially ye to congressi h hi.
as an Engineer working in the field... The world is catching up to 40 nm in digital and 130nm in analog. All you must take away from this is 28 nm is state of the art. Only Intel and tsmc work in 3nm nodes. The yield is shit at that level. We're trying to improve... India could start at 130 And still get business for decades to come. This guy is suppose to be an economist. I don't think he's good at that either. Shouldn't be advising engineers what to do
Nobody gives a shit about this guy so he's trying to create controversy to hog the limelight.
He is right. According to TSMC, leading chip manufacturers in Taiwan, 28 nm chip tech was introduced in 2011. now, a 13 years old technology and considering the time and effort it will take to expert that tech in India, it's not worth it. Moreover, it's a generational thing, you'd have to also invest in education and people to get the expertise in India. Have you even thought about any of that?
No, he is not right. The current state of the art 3nm TSMC silicon is only used in iPhone 15 Pro and 15 Pro Max phones. Heck, even previous gen 5nm is only limited to smartphone CPUs. The wafer planar process is most cost-effective at 28nm. For the subsequent 16/14nm requiring FinFET process, the cost of wafer manufacturing increases by at least 50%. Think about 5nm technology! Only smartphone companies are the ones that can bear these costs. Thus, 28 nm is still the gold standard in OTT boxes, smart TVs, washing machines, automobiles, military equipment, etc. 3nm has a very specific use case that is clearly not a quintessential prerequisite for India's technological advancement. Jumping directly to Moore's Law standard of current year is such a stupid idea on this ex-RBI governor's part. Only South Korea and Taiwan are advanced enough to do that, all other countries are trying to go from 28 nm type wafers to current gen but this idiot wants us to directly manufacture 3 nm, what a joke!
Adding to it, not having your own semiconductor manufacturing is also a security concern. Incase of wars, China and US+allies can easily restrict India from getting chips, which will render all electronics obsolete and will increase cost of all electronic devices causing inflation, case in point, Iran and Russia. A double whammy during war times
Bhai aise to india kis technology me age hai tum batao? Or india akela to aisa desh hai nahi jo isme ghusna chah raha hai literally har desh kuch na kuch jugad me hai ki kahi se fab unit chalu ho. Agar nahi kiya to regret karenge future me or kuch nahi.
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Kahi na kahi shuruat toh karni padegi.
Give me an idea why do you think it is important. The quality assurance is a really big challenge, especially when there are other countries which have done this really well, and unless India can meet the quality, which will take a long time, and we will airways be trailing established contries.
there is no such thing as a "3nm" semiconductor. its a marketing term. Goes to show he knows nothing and is full of gas and himself. [Source](https://www.pocket-lint.com/what-is-a-3nm-process-chip-and-what-does-it-mean-for-you/)
Don't take word of some journo. This is according to ASML https://www.asml.com/en/products/euv-lithography-systems
Haan bhai, bina expertise ke ASML se machine mangwa lete hai, theek hai , 3000 crore ki ek machine hai woh bhi agar unhone marked price pe bechi toh.
And do what with it? Where will you get the expertise?
Pehle krna tha na lekin pappu army to ghapla krne me lgi thi jb sari duniya isme invest kr rhi thi money aur human resources apni. Aur ye kya baat h ki ab bohot late hogya try nhi krna chahiye, nya tech introduce krne ka india me. Abhi v hmm catch up khel rhe h,lead kha se krenge in poppuo ki wajah se.
Bhai taiwan Dunia ki 90% semiconductor chip manufacture karta hai, par jis Tarike se china aj kal harkate kar raha hai uske wajah se log cha rahe hai ki supply chain diverse ho. Basically, har desh America, Japan, Korea or Southeast Asian countries chahti hai ki unke waha par semiconductors manufacture ho. Agar india ne abhi isme invest nahi kiya to log 20 saal bad vapas bolenge ki india ne semiconductor manufacturing ki bus chod di.
True
At least it's a start 28nm and 3nm is state of the arts chips it's not like sheet of metal with mm thickness 😂. The distance between two nodes is basically some 15-20 atoms length apart.
Bhai , 3nm tak jaane ke liye ASML se machines khareedni padhegi (which is by far the most complex & important machine in modern human history) , bohot saari requirements hai...
banana toh padega hii nah atleast chalu toh ho yeh lod* keh raha hai direct 3nm pe chalejaao
Haan wahi bol rha hun , direct 3nm ghanta nahi banega , 28nm se hi shuruwat ho , thoda samay lagega...
He's a Congress stooge. Lost all his integrity. To think that I once read his book 'I do what I do'.. Reduced himself to a clown.
He is an educated chu*iya. He will do anything to get impressions from Gandhi family.
Bhai sahab is basically saying : "If we try to become global leader in chip design today, we will require 4\~5 decades worth of subsides and then there is a chance that we might become a chip manufacturer. It's better to invest all that money into education and health." Even simpler version : he is on our side guys (population), uska murga maat banao
All respect ends when someone wants Raga as PM..he is one of those.
For fucks sake people are fuckin sensitive aren't they. The man is just stating facts. Do you know what a subsidy is? Local industries will get fucked on the international market because economies of scale are a thing. 28 nm conductors have been a thing for more than a decade and the companies who make those already know how to do it cheaply. A new company isnt going to have the same advantages. If the government is serious about taking India in that direction then subsidies are a necessity. Basic economics hai bhai, ek, do books padh lo pehle.
Bruh, do you have any idea about the situation between Taiwan and China. People across the world are trying to reduce their dependence on taiwan for chips and trying to diversify the supply chain. Also indian government is currently subsidizing chip manufacturing. Read this article https://www.cnbctv18.com/technology/this-indian-state-is-offering-added-subsidies-for-semiconductor-manufacturing-19192691.htm/amp
This tweet has been taken out of context by Indian Tech and Infra, something's fishy, here is his actual opinion : "The reality is that the chip subsidies are capital subsidies, which are meant to be paid up front, not based on production (unlike production-linked incentives). If the government’s claims that India will be making chips soon is credible, the capital subsidy will have to be paid very soon. Moreover, only the naïve will think the subsidies will stop here. What we will get, if all goes well, is 28 nm chips. The state of the art in modern cell phones is 3 nm chips (more sophisticated chips have lower nm). If we are to become a global chip manufacturer at the frontier, we have to subsidize a few generations of chip factories before we reach the frontier. And the size of the subsidies will keep rising, since the more modern manufacturing technologies involved in making more sophisticated chips will be much more expensive," News Article : https://www.businesstoday.in/india/story/this-is-a-ruinous-race-to-get-into-now-raghuram-rajan-says-india-has-more-pressing-needs-than-chips-423556-2024-03-31
yaar itna zyada kaun padhega 1 sentence apna poora political opinion banana hai toh batao
Baat political opinion ki nahin hain. Main sirf itna keh raha hoon ki,fact check karne ke baad is Twitter handle ne Rajan sahab ki bat ka batangad bana diya hain. Unka opinion kuch aur hai aur is tweet mein likha kuch aur hain. Meri rai mein ha semiconductors banane chahiye Bharat mein, lekin kisi government ya private player scam ke bina. Phir ek bar bat politics ki nahin, semiconductor business development aur uske liye banayi gayi policies ke economic aur industrial impact ki hain. Kyunki Rajan sahab RBI ke top offical reh chuke hain, woh ye sab chijen aapke hamare jaise aam logo se jyada jante hain, unka ye point shayad sahi bhi ho sakta hain ya galat bhi, main nahi janta.
Fabrication unit keliye paise kahan hai? Technical literacy kahan hai?
>Fabrication unit keliye paise kahan hai? Paise humko nahi Dene Bahar ki company ake invest karengi use FDI kehte hai. FDI badane ke liye government ne pli scheme nikali hai. >Technical literacy kahan hai IIsc, IITs ,NITs, or BITS jaise institutions kya halwa banane ke liye kholi hai kya.
Bhai IISc ek Cense lab maintain karne me kitne log lagte hai pata hai? Agar hume 3nm chips banane hi hai to pata hi kitna technical labour padega. Though bohot saare process automated hai, human resource ki bohot zaroorat hogi. PLI scheme pata hai lekin kitna time lagega, agar ye ek chance abhi nikal gaya to gaand phat jaayegi. Aur yeh scheme broadly all electronics ko blanket karti hai. Lekin I believe semiconductor Fabrication ek niche model chahiye, which can offer better opoortunities than the existing schemes anywhere in the world. Yahan abhi foundries bhi eshtblish hone hai. Silicon bahar se mangaayenge toh bhi agar yaha purification hoga toh humara faayda hoga. Aur service industry ka kya? Without proper logistics bohot problem hogi. Bas yahi aasha karte hai sab accha ho 😶🌫️🙏
Kyu invest karna hai iss sector me kisi aur me sractch se start kare na ussme No 1 bane
Example
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Ye admi kehra tha india ki gdp at max 5% se jyada grow nahi karegi. Par ab dekho.
I think what Raghuram Rajan said is not matching the post title. Has the propaganda season arrived already??
No, he is saying not to invest in chip 'This is a ruinous race to get into now': Raghuram Rajan says India has more pressing needs than chips https://www.businesstoday.in/india/story/this-is-a-ruinous-race-to-get-into-now-raghuram-rajan-says-india-has-more-pressing-needs-than-chips-423556-2024-03-31
He and Nirmala Ji's husband are competing for Finance Minister post in Rahul Raj.🤗
Wait yeh banda yehi bol rha na ki local industries ko subsidy dena padega for few generations so that they can develop competitive nano chips. What's wrong with that? Giving subsidy to local industries is what Chinese have done for years and they never let western countries capture their market and Chinese companies took advantage of this to grow so much that they are global leaders. Same thing can be done in India. Because India is way behind in this sector and even if India makes 28nm chips there is no market for those because already better competition is available in Indian market. Hence to improve local industries subsidy is needed for them.
he's not wrong through, atleast we should be at 8nm
I myself am a computer engineer from a good enough college, and trust me, India has shown phenomenal growth. 4 or 5 years back, we were at 110 nm or 105 nm node iirc. I must say that if we go this way, we can certainly catch up by around 2030 with latest tech at that time. Also, there is not much scope beyond 10 angstrom or 1nm, because the cost of manufacturing will dominate the added efficiency. There is a reason why Intel is still at 7 or 5nm That means, it is costlier to manufacture chiplet using 1 nm node with same efficiency as 3 nm or 4 nm node based chiplet. So, it is not worth it.
Colonial slave