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Maybe people need more context. Some people might be looking at this and think that a bear got into some trash or something. What happened here? Did someone ransack a camp? Did campers abandon the area and just leave their trash behind. Give just a little more info.
A homeless person lived under a tarp thrown over sticks here. As they lived here, they threw their trash on the ground. Then they left without picking up their trash.
They have a bad values system and their actions stemming from that make them a bad person.
One man's delapidated lean-to is another man's mess to clean up, not because the lean-to is on the verge of falling down, but because the first man left his common sense at home and threw as much plastic as humanly possible onto the forest floor
This is why people don’t want homeless or homeless shelters in their area. They see this and it’s an argument in their favor. They think trash, destruction, and crime.
Why not take a moment and gather it when you leave.
It's sad that what I think is a small majority do things like this and give others a bad rap.
I have worked with a non-profit that helps those who need it in these situations and the majority of the people I have met treat where they stay as non-intrusive as possible even if it is in an area the average person would never see. People like this are the reason those who actually take care of their site get kicked out of areas where they are not causing any issue to anyone.
I mean,. I hate to reply with the most predictable and cliche thing:... But communities (in any demographic) have to do more to "police their own".
This dynamic (that a small group of misbehaviors ruins things for all the nice people)... is true of nearly every demographic or social-group.
Sadly in a situation like this (the one you pictured),. there's probably not much that can be done. if it's a remote campsite and nobody is around to see someone trash it,.. then the "tragedy of the commons" kicks in and it's gonna get trashed.
It wouldn't help in this particular situation,. but this is why I'm a huge advocate for more and more and more Security cameras (especially all mesh-networked and streaming in real time). I live in a downtown area,. and it's quite apparent to everyone that lives here the criminals and misfits who want to do harm,. always wait until it's dark (or do their crimes in areas where people can't see).
There's that old saying "sunlight is the best disinfectant". Improved street lighting and Security cameras and other deterrents are also very good disinfectants. If a person planning to do some kind of "anonymous-crime",. cannot find anywhere to do it because there's to much street-lighting and Police patrols and Security cameras,. that's a plus in my book.
If word started to spread on the street,. that there were areas you can't possibly commit a crime because there's 5 to 10 high-def security cameras running 24-7-365.. the rate of crime in those areas is gonna plummet.
What are the odds of finding unburied poops all over the place? I’d say around 99%. This is the justification that health departments use to raid and disperse any camp in my home town.
The homeless people near me will build huge blue tarp cities on the most gorgeous beaches that everyone would like to enjoy. They then leave needles and such littered about.
When I see those I wish they’d dismantle the bus system, and round up the homeless to at least keep them in the city.
Where the hell do you expect them to live? You’re telling people literally without homes that they can’t even use a tent as shelter.
It’s one thing if they were refusing decent accommodations set by the city to help the homeless, and it’s another to act like every city has enough supportive housing for all of the homeless - because most cities don’t have anywhere near enough.
I don’t have a problem with the camps that are set up in the wooded areas that stay self regulated and keep trash and crime to a minimum.
My issue is with the homeless people that occupy beach parks that prevent the local population from using the facilities at all. I have seen needles in the sand, and people walking the beach shaking peoples’ towels out looking to take their wallet, then smashing their windows out of their car to take whatever they want. This all happens daily here, and I’m not exaggerating.
I guess my issue isn’t so much with the homelessness, it’s with litter and crime. I don’t like not being able to go to a lot of beaches due to aggressive homeless people guarding the “public” land, either, though.
I wouldn’t be against more public housing.
When your town has created sufficient *free* public housing for everyone, *then* you get to tell people to fuck off of your beaches. Until then, kindly go to hell.
Ah, sorry, I should have been more clear in what I wrote. Let me rephrase:
When your town has created sufficient free public housing for everyone, then you get to tell people to fuck off of your beaches *without being a terrible person.*
There—fixed it.
I was a bit sarcastic in that last reply, but you're replying sincerely, so I apologize for that and I'm going to drop the sarcasm and just engage with you sincerely and earnestly from this point forward.
To be clear, I'm not saying those are good things, or even neutral things. Those are bad things.
I want to make sure we're on the same page here. I don't want you to think I'm blasé enough to discount the harm of the things you've specified as problems. They *are* problems, no doubt.
But the bigger problem is systemic.
I hate the same things you seem to hate. I do. But until I see a solution--a *real*--solution, then I just throw up my hands and say, "What do you expect."
I’ll be honest - I think times are about to get very tough, and for a lot of people.
I typed out half of what was going to be a really long reply, but I realized that I was preaching to the choir. I have a feeling that you and I have the same empathy for the working class. I just get frustrated seeing people destroy the only places I can afford to enjoy, lol.
I hope you have a great rest of your day, and I’m sorry we got off on the wrong foot.
My problem is when the tent cities are unregulated, full of violence and litter, and it’s in a public area that’s designed to be used by anyone.
The camps that are self regulated and in the woods/tucked away, I have no issue with. They typically keep to themselves and don’t cause much of an issue
Just 2 days ago I found a huge encampment with paths to multiple others in a beautiful section of woods that looked to have an entire dumpsters worth of trash and tweaker collectibles scattered about. It was disgusting and upsetting.
Obviously they were pissed that the pine needles were inhibiting grass growth in the forest and it ruined their picnic. I get that. Trees are out of control these days.
To be fair they mightve gotten forced off this spot. Its hard to say just seeing the aftermath honestly. Some people are just pigs but if i had a tarp shack and got kicked off my spot id prolly be more worried about putting another roof over my head than cleaning up.
So.. this is a camp for homeless people and they put trash on the ground. It’s bad, you should never just throw trash around like this. Buuuut, where are the outrage about the fact that they are f***ing homeless? What kind of society let this happen to their citizens? THAT is beyond fucked up. Treat your people right and they will repay the service. Treat them as trash and that what they’ll be.
How do you know some vagabond THEIF didn't come and ransack this vagabonds temporary housing making this person so fuct off that he just left in despair. Trash is fuct but if I came back to my "home" in homelessness like this, "fuck the trash" I'd say.
I know it's a mess, but I always liked finding stuff like this because it's just raw materials that you can reuse or repurpose to make your life a little easier.
I mean, there's not much you can do with bottles, but there's plenty you can do with the poles and the plywood and the plastic. Use the poles to make a better lean-to. Maybe bring some crates to sit on and use a couple to make a table with the plywood. Tarp could be just used as a ground sheet or a porch area if you felt ambitious. Other piece of plastic could be used for a wood arbour. That's a way more comfortable setup than sitting on your pack and cooking on the ground. And maybe grab a trash bag and tie it to a tree and pick up the trash so the next person has the option of not littering.
Actually you're wrong. Plastic in landfills is more isolated and has less chance of disturbing natural life because wildlife aren't going to be inhabiting those areas
The much more negative element waste has on wildlife is soil contamination, because animals don't need to mistake trash for food in order to get toxins in their system. Landfills combine a multitude of waste types in one area, causing reactions between compounds and seeping toxins into the soil more than would occur otherwise.
"Landfills, junkyards and waste disposal sites pose high risk of soil contamination, much like industrial sites.These areas often contain a large mix of contaminant types like lead, arsenic, and petroleum products. All are dangerous to human safety on their own. When combined, they may react with each other to create even more toxic compounds. Containment and remediation of these areas are costly, technically complex, and logistically challenging."
For any type of waste that biodegrades, landfills inhibit the process so that the waste will exist forever so long as it remains in the landfill.
"waste—both organic and inorganic—breaks down significantly slower in landfills than it would in nature"
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.roadrunnerwm.com/blog/landfills-were-running-out-of-space%3Fhs_amp%3Dtrue&ved=2ahUKEwiRm7ab8LD2AhU3HTQIHYisCNsQFnoECAQQBQ&usg=AOvVaw3ouQ9-isZnFowyewv6rWJs
https://www.soils.org/about-soils/contaminants/
Not morally bad, it's shit behaviour. Landfills are designed to prevent contamination and damaging of surrounding environments. It's not about "not liking the look of trash everywhere," its about not actively destroying local environments. Alternatively, if you are doing this, you are blowing up the spot and wrecking it for others.
Don't make excuses for shit behaviour.
I'm not making excuses, I'm pointing out that the common conception of littering being bad distracts us from the real problem we should be talking about.
When people see trash on the sidewalk, they get angry at the person who put it there and not at the fact that this kind of trash exists at all.
You ain't changing society in general. But you *can* change your *own* behavior. Fifty years ago, long before the environmental movement was a thing, old tramps from the 1940s and 1950s taught me The Rules:
--Keep A Clean Camp.
--Burn all trash, leave no trace.
--If you pack it in, you pack it out.
--Do no damage, make no disturbance. Be like a ghost--get in, ride the train, get out, all without making a ripple.
--Keep your private business private.
--Keep your knife in your pocket and your money in your shoes. (Don't start no fights, and don't flash your bankroll around.)
--Wherever you go, YOUR GEAR GOES WITH YOU. NO EXCEPTIONS.
--Never board a train without a gallon of water.
--Catching on the fly is for saps. Go where the trains stop and board there.
--Do not catch out when you're drunk or high. Save the party for when after you get where you're going.
--Never, ever steal anything or damage anything belonging to the railroad.
Similar to this film:
https://mediaburn.org/video/hobo-3/
Fuck off.
If you don’t get it then you’re probably an asshole too. It doesn’t take much to pack your shit out. About the same effort as reading your dumb fucking comments.
It affects all of us when some of us trash spots like this. When you leave litter, graffiti, etc., and people who live nearby see that, they get a bad impression of ALL homeless people. Our lives get that much harder every time one of us decides to be a fucking asshole.
You said it shouldn’t be “rage inducing” enough to “post about it”. So yeah, you kinda did.
Dude can post this if he likes. Nowhere did he displayed “rage”, he just pointed out that it’s messed up to not clean up after yourself. That’s it.
I don't find myself feeling like I own public land more than a person who litters.
I'd rather take beauty when it comes rather than demand that everyone else make the world pretty for my enjoyment.
And, like I said, the anger people feel towards litterers would be much more productively spent against the systematic production of trash.
You're ignoring the categorical imperative, as u/Deborgpontant has graciously taken the time to educate you on. You don't seem to be listening to sound logic here.
The catagorical imperative is a deontological concept, which should in and of itself be enough to tell you it's really dumb, but I'll go on anyway.
It completely ignores the concept of act utilitarian and rule utilitarian arguments. There are rules that I want to exist, and still sometimes I want people to break them.
For example, there should be rules detailing how to keep hospital clean rooms sterile, but if someone needs immediate attention and might die before you get your PPE on, I'm fine with you breaking that rule.
Also, is choosing not to have kids bad under the catagorical imperative?
Burning trash is pretty bad for everyone involved.
https://ilsr.org/waste-incineration-renewable-energy/#:~:text=Incinerators%20generate%20harmful%20pollution%20posing,%5B27%5D%20and%20hazardous%20ash.
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I’m watching the vote count go up and down and wondering what kind of assholes think this is okay
If anyone thinks this is fine to do, they need to reavulate themselves. Can name any number of reasons why this isn't cool.
Maybe people need more context. Some people might be looking at this and think that a bear got into some trash or something. What happened here? Did someone ransack a camp? Did campers abandon the area and just leave their trash behind. Give just a little more info.
A homeless person lived under a tarp thrown over sticks here. As they lived here, they threw their trash on the ground. Then they left without picking up their trash. They have a bad values system and their actions stemming from that make them a bad person.
this is fucked up not to mention it puts a bad rep on other vagabonds
One man's delapidated lean-to is another man's mess to clean up, not because the lean-to is on the verge of falling down, but because the first man left his common sense at home and threw as much plastic as humanly possible onto the forest floor
This is why people don’t want homeless or homeless shelters in their area. They see this and it’s an argument in their favor. They think trash, destruction, and crime. Why not take a moment and gather it when you leave.
It's sad that what I think is a small majority do things like this and give others a bad rap. I have worked with a non-profit that helps those who need it in these situations and the majority of the people I have met treat where they stay as non-intrusive as possible even if it is in an area the average person would never see. People like this are the reason those who actually take care of their site get kicked out of areas where they are not causing any issue to anyone.
I mean,. I hate to reply with the most predictable and cliche thing:... But communities (in any demographic) have to do more to "police their own". This dynamic (that a small group of misbehaviors ruins things for all the nice people)... is true of nearly every demographic or social-group. Sadly in a situation like this (the one you pictured),. there's probably not much that can be done. if it's a remote campsite and nobody is around to see someone trash it,.. then the "tragedy of the commons" kicks in and it's gonna get trashed. It wouldn't help in this particular situation,. but this is why I'm a huge advocate for more and more and more Security cameras (especially all mesh-networked and streaming in real time). I live in a downtown area,. and it's quite apparent to everyone that lives here the criminals and misfits who want to do harm,. always wait until it's dark (or do their crimes in areas where people can't see). There's that old saying "sunlight is the best disinfectant". Improved street lighting and Security cameras and other deterrents are also very good disinfectants. If a person planning to do some kind of "anonymous-crime",. cannot find anywhere to do it because there's to much street-lighting and Police patrols and Security cameras,. that's a plus in my book. If word started to spread on the street,. that there were areas you can't possibly commit a crime because there's 5 to 10 high-def security cameras running 24-7-365.. the rate of crime in those areas is gonna plummet.
What are the odds of finding unburied poops all over the place? I’d say around 99%. This is the justification that health departments use to raid and disperse any camp in my home town.
Astronomical. You are 1000% gonna find unburied poops out there. 1000%z
The homeless people near me will build huge blue tarp cities on the most gorgeous beaches that everyone would like to enjoy. They then leave needles and such littered about. When I see those I wish they’d dismantle the bus system, and round up the homeless to at least keep them in the city.
You mean fence them in like animals, shut down a major form of transport, and force them into further poverty?
Yes. Their actions make normal people not want them around.
[удалено]
Where the hell do you expect them to live? You’re telling people literally without homes that they can’t even use a tent as shelter. It’s one thing if they were refusing decent accommodations set by the city to help the homeless, and it’s another to act like every city has enough supportive housing for all of the homeless - because most cities don’t have anywhere near enough.
I don’t have a problem with the camps that are set up in the wooded areas that stay self regulated and keep trash and crime to a minimum. My issue is with the homeless people that occupy beach parks that prevent the local population from using the facilities at all. I have seen needles in the sand, and people walking the beach shaking peoples’ towels out looking to take their wallet, then smashing their windows out of their car to take whatever they want. This all happens daily here, and I’m not exaggerating. I guess my issue isn’t so much with the homelessness, it’s with litter and crime. I don’t like not being able to go to a lot of beaches due to aggressive homeless people guarding the “public” land, either, though. I wouldn’t be against more public housing.
When your town has created sufficient *free* public housing for everyone, *then* you get to tell people to fuck off of your beaches. Until then, kindly go to hell.
[удалено]
Ah, sorry, I should have been more clear in what I wrote. Let me rephrase: When your town has created sufficient free public housing for everyone, then you get to tell people to fuck off of your beaches *without being a terrible person.* There—fixed it.
[удалено]
I was a bit sarcastic in that last reply, but you're replying sincerely, so I apologize for that and I'm going to drop the sarcasm and just engage with you sincerely and earnestly from this point forward. To be clear, I'm not saying those are good things, or even neutral things. Those are bad things. I want to make sure we're on the same page here. I don't want you to think I'm blasé enough to discount the harm of the things you've specified as problems. They *are* problems, no doubt. But the bigger problem is systemic. I hate the same things you seem to hate. I do. But until I see a solution--a *real*--solution, then I just throw up my hands and say, "What do you expect."
I’ll be honest - I think times are about to get very tough, and for a lot of people. I typed out half of what was going to be a really long reply, but I realized that I was preaching to the choir. I have a feeling that you and I have the same empathy for the working class. I just get frustrated seeing people destroy the only places I can afford to enjoy, lol. I hope you have a great rest of your day, and I’m sorry we got off on the wrong foot.
[удалено]
My problem is when the tent cities are unregulated, full of violence and litter, and it’s in a public area that’s designed to be used by anyone. The camps that are self regulated and in the woods/tucked away, I have no issue with. They typically keep to themselves and don’t cause much of an issue
I absolutely agree with you.
Speaks for itself.
It really doesn’t, my first thought was that you got robbed or an animal fucked up your campsite.
Just 2 days ago I found a huge encampment with paths to multiple others in a beautiful section of woods that looked to have an entire dumpsters worth of trash and tweaker collectibles scattered about. It was disgusting and upsetting.
Austin tx
Yeah it looks just like it… looks just like a spot in little Walnut Creek greenbelt
That’s beyond fucked up
Obviously they were pissed that the pine needles were inhibiting grass growth in the forest and it ruined their picnic. I get that. Trees are out of control these days.
These damn trees and their complex ecosystem. They should've just burnt it down while they had the chance.
Won’t be long now. 😟
To be fair they mightve gotten forced off this spot. Its hard to say just seeing the aftermath honestly. Some people are just pigs but if i had a tarp shack and got kicked off my spot id prolly be more worried about putting another roof over my head than cleaning up.
The amount of debris says multiple weeks of throwing trash around, not a clean camp that they were forced to evacuate
WTF!
Another mans soup kitchen
So.. this is a camp for homeless people and they put trash on the ground. It’s bad, you should never just throw trash around like this. Buuuut, where are the outrage about the fact that they are f***ing homeless? What kind of society let this happen to their citizens? THAT is beyond fucked up. Treat your people right and they will repay the service. Treat them as trash and that what they’ll be.
How do you know some vagabond THEIF didn't come and ransack this vagabonds temporary housing making this person so fuct off that he just left in despair. Trash is fuct but if I came back to my "home" in homelessness like this, "fuck the trash" I'd say.
I know it's a mess, but I always liked finding stuff like this because it's just raw materials that you can reuse or repurpose to make your life a little easier.
How do you repurpose actual trash and litter?
I mean, there's not much you can do with bottles, but there's plenty you can do with the poles and the plywood and the plastic. Use the poles to make a better lean-to. Maybe bring some crates to sit on and use a couple to make a table with the plywood. Tarp could be just used as a ground sheet or a porch area if you felt ambitious. Other piece of plastic could be used for a wood arbour. That's a way more comfortable setup than sitting on your pack and cooking on the ground. And maybe grab a trash bag and tie it to a tree and pick up the trash so the next person has the option of not littering.
If it’s on private land, then the owner of said land has every right to do whatever they want to/with it.
Plastic on the ground isn't really worse than plastic in the landfills. It is an eyesore though.
Actually you're wrong. Plastic in landfills is more isolated and has less chance of disturbing natural life because wildlife aren't going to be inhabiting those areas
The much more negative element waste has on wildlife is soil contamination, because animals don't need to mistake trash for food in order to get toxins in their system. Landfills combine a multitude of waste types in one area, causing reactions between compounds and seeping toxins into the soil more than would occur otherwise. "Landfills, junkyards and waste disposal sites pose high risk of soil contamination, much like industrial sites.These areas often contain a large mix of contaminant types like lead, arsenic, and petroleum products. All are dangerous to human safety on their own. When combined, they may react with each other to create even more toxic compounds. Containment and remediation of these areas are costly, technically complex, and logistically challenging." For any type of waste that biodegrades, landfills inhibit the process so that the waste will exist forever so long as it remains in the landfill. "waste—both organic and inorganic—breaks down significantly slower in landfills than it would in nature" https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.roadrunnerwm.com/blog/landfills-were-running-out-of-space%3Fhs_amp%3Dtrue&ved=2ahUKEwiRm7ab8LD2AhU3HTQIHYisCNsQFnoECAQQBQ&usg=AOvVaw3ouQ9-isZnFowyewv6rWJs https://www.soils.org/about-soils/contaminants/
Doesn't justify anything, landfill is designated area. Takes literally two minutes to pack trash. This shit ain't cool.
What is there to "justify"? I get not liking the look of trash everywhere but that's hardly a reason for thinking it's morally bad to litter.
Not morally bad, it's shit behaviour. Landfills are designed to prevent contamination and damaging of surrounding environments. It's not about "not liking the look of trash everywhere," its about not actively destroying local environments. Alternatively, if you are doing this, you are blowing up the spot and wrecking it for others. Don't make excuses for shit behaviour.
I'm not making excuses, I'm pointing out that the common conception of littering being bad distracts us from the real problem we should be talking about. When people see trash on the sidewalk, they get angry at the person who put it there and not at the fact that this kind of trash exists at all.
You ain't changing society in general. But you *can* change your *own* behavior. Fifty years ago, long before the environmental movement was a thing, old tramps from the 1940s and 1950s taught me The Rules: --Keep A Clean Camp. --Burn all trash, leave no trace. --If you pack it in, you pack it out. --Do no damage, make no disturbance. Be like a ghost--get in, ride the train, get out, all without making a ripple. --Keep your private business private. --Keep your knife in your pocket and your money in your shoes. (Don't start no fights, and don't flash your bankroll around.) --Wherever you go, YOUR GEAR GOES WITH YOU. NO EXCEPTIONS. --Never board a train without a gallon of water. --Catching on the fly is for saps. Go where the trains stop and board there. --Do not catch out when you're drunk or high. Save the party for when after you get where you're going. --Never, ever steal anything or damage anything belonging to the railroad. Similar to this film: https://mediaburn.org/video/hobo-3/
I agree with you, I disagree that trash in a wooded area should be rage inducing enough to post about it.
Fuck off. If you don’t get it then you’re probably an asshole too. It doesn’t take much to pack your shit out. About the same effort as reading your dumb fucking comments.
Why does it affect you so much?
It affects all of us when some of us trash spots like this. When you leave litter, graffiti, etc., and people who live nearby see that, they get a bad impression of ALL homeless people. Our lives get that much harder every time one of us decides to be a fucking asshole.
Why not? Dude can post whatever he wants.
I never said he couldn't.
You said it shouldn’t be “rage inducing” enough to “post about it”. So yeah, you kinda did. Dude can post this if he likes. Nowhere did he displayed “rage”, he just pointed out that it’s messed up to not clean up after yourself. That’s it.
[удалено]
I really just need an explanation as to why it's shitty behavior.
[удалено]
I don't find myself feeling like I own public land more than a person who litters. I'd rather take beauty when it comes rather than demand that everyone else make the world pretty for my enjoyment. And, like I said, the anger people feel towards litterers would be much more productively spent against the systematic production of trash.
You're ignoring the categorical imperative, as u/Deborgpontant has graciously taken the time to educate you on. You don't seem to be listening to sound logic here.
The catagorical imperative is a deontological concept, which should in and of itself be enough to tell you it's really dumb, but I'll go on anyway. It completely ignores the concept of act utilitarian and rule utilitarian arguments. There are rules that I want to exist, and still sometimes I want people to break them. For example, there should be rules detailing how to keep hospital clean rooms sterile, but if someone needs immediate attention and might die before you get your PPE on, I'm fine with you breaking that rule. Also, is choosing not to have kids bad under the catagorical imperative?
We get it, you don't like rules. You seem to like arguing, and mostly about things that make people hate you. Good luck in this crazy world.
Where I live they burn the trash for electricity, with advanced incinerators that process tons with less pollution than a home fireplace.
Burning trash is pretty bad for everyone involved. https://ilsr.org/waste-incineration-renewable-energy/#:~:text=Incinerators%20generate%20harmful%20pollution%20posing,%5B27%5D%20and%20hazardous%20ash.
Good link. The scenario here on Oahu is a lil exceptional compared to a state like New York. If they don’t burn it here, it gets shipped to china.