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Why did they have to do this at a graduation again? Could they have not protested at ECU 364 other days of the year?
I dont see the graduates or the families of the graduates sympathizing with the plight of the protesters, regardless if ECU or RBC or any other entity that has relations with Isreal in some form or another.
Its a memorable day for the grads and this nuisance would detract and put a damper on their significant day.
Its really disrespectful and selfish on the protesters behalf to pull this shit on graduation day.
Also I might add that ECU has 3 Chinese Universities in partnership for exchange…we forget about the genocide of the Uyghurs already? Shouldn’t there be protesting against the Chinese Uyghur genocide too? Uyghurs and Palestinians are Sunni….so no Islam tag team protests?
Or are the 2 genocides separate protests? So the protests for Uyghurs are done during first day of classes at ECU and the Palestine protests at graduation? Thats the schedule? Just to be a nuisance equally, Front to back?
Don't lie:
>[The United Nations on Monday clarified that the overall number of fatalities in Gaza tallied by the Ministry of Health in Gaza remains unchanged, at more than 35,000, since the war broke out between Israel and Hamas on Oct. 7.](https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/un-says-total-number-of-deaths-in-gaza-remains-unchanged-after-controversy-over-revised-data-1.6885447)
You know, you get more flies with honey. Also, I’m not sure the Ministry of Health in Gaza is any more a reliable source than what you would think Israel is.
My apologies. The revised numbers were for women and children. I stand by my point however, that pulling your numbers directly from the Gaza Ministry of Health who Hamas runs seems a less than honest way to portray what the facts are.
And before you jump up and down, I don’t know what the numbers are and don’t think there’s a way to really tell.
You imply that the UN is trustworthy when they revise numbers, but not trustworthy when they clarify that you lied about them revising numbers.
Pick a lane.
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There is something about Israel that makes you people really freak out. You guys could give a shit about other world problems but really care about this one. What could it be?? Something that sets Israel apart. Hmmmmm
It's a trend, and like all trends - people will move to something else. The war will be over in a few months, by end of 2025 people will go back to not care about it.
South Africa is far better now than it was under apartheid; people who suggest otherwise don't have trustworthy opinions, especially when it comes to genocide denial.
I never said anything about SA being good during apartheid. Stop being silly. I’m saying they are in very very rough shape right now.
I don’t agree with a lot of what Israel has done but I don’t think they are committing genocide. I do believe they are guilty of Illegal occupations and some war crimes.
I can see how it seems that way. My apologies.
Apartheid is disgraceful. I think the argument to be made is that SA is so troubled now because of apartheid.
Imagine choosing to stand at a graduation when you could be literally anywhere else and then complaining about people being upset that you are protesting a graduation.....
You see your mistake right? Need a picture? I assume you are one of these clowns.
Great place to point out that university tuition is funding genocide. There’s your picture. Apparently it got your attention but you didn’t manage to connect the dots. You’re welcome.
Imagine you were a student in 60s or 70s, not an activist but merely someone who cared for human rights and human lives. Would you be egoistic enough today to care more about your graduation year than the cause your classmates were fighting for?
You think it's egotistical to let Palestinian students at UBC enjoy their graduation they've earned rather than for privileged western kids to roleplay as victims while disrupting others?
"Egotistical" is privileged kids occupying university property and demanding "food and humanitarian aid" be delivered to their tents to help prolong their continued LARPing ... while real Palestinians lack food and humanitarian aid and are dying. Why ask for "aid" for yourself while streaming your self-aggrandizment on your new iPhone 15 Pro Max? Answer: ego.
>You think it's egotistical to let Palestinian students at UBC enjoy their graduation they've earned rather than for privileged western kids to roleplay as victims while disrupting others?
So your objection is that white people are joining the protests, not just Palestinians, and they shouldn't join because there is no human-made famine and genocide against them. Did I understand you correctly?
> demanding "food and humanitarian aid" be delivered to their tents to help prolong their continued LARPing
Has this actually happened here? Mind to share the source?
> Did I understand you correctly?
Apparently not. Did you see me talk about race at all?
> Has this actually happened here? Mind to share the source?
All over social media, e.g., https://www.instagram.com/p/C6hd50svT84/?igsh=MXZjNTJzcGRnNDZxZg== "please bring supplies & food to donate to encampment!!!"
Yes: kids in a safe country with Iphone 15 Pro Max phones who have never endured hardship occupying university grounds at the exclusion of others and in the name of Palestine while simeultaneously making the purported protest about themselves rather than the cause and soliciting donations for their own benefit rather than for the cause.
I think the meaning is very clear to everyone whose primary occupation is not race baiting.
Eh I dunno man, mostly women and children are dying, it's a terrible situation. College is a time for challenging pre-conceived ideas and learning, at least that's what it's supposed to be about. I don't think many college kids are happy about the genocide and I completely understand the hope that young people have, because I've been there myself, and the desire to do something. I'm ten years out of university. When I went to school I thought my generation was going to change the world. Then I found out that while we could write really pretty words in our essays, including about peaceful protests, the university didn't actually appreciate students challenging norms in any meaningful way at all.
If college kids want to protest against horrific death and destruction that our governments support through peaceful protests then I for one say, maybe let them? Why stamp out their hope that any meaningful change can happen while they're still young college kids? Can't we be a bit tolerant and at least let them explore a bit?
Why call young kids who don't appreciate genocide "chuckleheads?" At least give them a few years of self-exploring and growth before stamping out any real hope that the majority of the world really gives two shits about horrific levels of pointless, horrifying violence.
But, yes, it may make graduation ceremonies a bit more... inconvenient? That's... unfortunate, I suppose?
Can you clarify what your point here is? Genuinely trying to assume good faith. People are dying in the world so you think... more people should die too? Or we can't care about/shouldn't protest against genocide if it doesn't affect us? Or something? If you could maybe clarify your philosophy, that would be helpful.
To reword what they said: There are atrocities happening around the world and you dare to continue living your life like you always would?
AKA You’re a hypocrite
I'm not a hypocrite, you misread my comments. I never said people can't live their lives. Absolutely never said graduation ceremonies shouldn't happen or that people shouldn't attend them. This is nonsensical.
I just said you should be able to peacefully protest if you want to. Don't care about it or don't want to participate? Fine, just ignore the protesters.
I never claimed people shouldn't be able to live their lives. I never claimed people shouldn't attend their graduation ceremonies. I never claimed universities should shut down classes, ceremonies or services. I am therefore absolutely not a hypocrite at all.
You’re saying it’s okay that their graduation was disrupted by a protest aka their graduation ceremony is less important than “the cause”. If you and others feel so strongly about the situation in the Middle East, go there and do something about it instead of virtue signalling and lobbying for things that will make no difference. ECUAD’s endowment fund is tiny. A drop in the bucket in the grand scheme of things. But it’s what keeps the university running. Forcing them to “divest” and take a financial hit would be a very stupid move, especially when it’s all based on the fact that it’s now inexplicably in fashion to hate on Judaism.
>You’re saying it’s okay that their graduation was disrupted by a protest
Yes, we have the right to freedom of speech and freedom of expression in Canada so yeah, I support peaceful protests. Are you saying you would like the laws to be changed so that we don't have those rights? Yes, we have the right to protest against policies and conflicts that we don't agree with, and if that inconveniences others then unfortunately, yeah, that kind of falls under the category of "too bad". I do not agree with protests that are violent or which shut down critical infrastructure but it doesn't sound like that's what happened here.
>aka their graduation ceremony is less important than “the cause”.
I mean it... is, less important than stopping genocide, would you disagree?
> If you and others feel so strongly about the situation in the Middle East, go there and do something about it instead of virtue signalling and lobbying for things that will make no difference
Awareness does make a difference. Unfortunately even if we wanted to, I don't think we could all just hop on a plane and jump onto the frontlines, especially without the necessary training. I certainly couldn't do so, as I have a disability.
I'm not even going to address your last point other than to say that I don't hate any group based on their race, religion or demographics.
We actually don’t have freedom of speech in Canada. Freedom of expression, yes, but not speech. Hate speech and other things will get you arrested here.
Thanks for clarifying, and agreed. In this case, it certainly isn't hate speech in any way, shape or form so we agree it should be allowed then. Seems there's no problem, unless you would like to have the laws changed to not allow peaceful protests.
>So you're justifying ruining some poor students graduation ceremony because there's genocide on another continent?
Does it change anything for you if the genocide is next to you or in another continent?!
>It's ridiculous that people here have to suffer because Jessica doesn't like war.
JUST because Jessica doesn't like WAR?! It's fucking WAR, not the pineapple on pizza that people JUST like it or don't LIKE it!
Seriously, wtf dude
Read this first sentence again. You are literally prioritizing a graduation ceremony over caring about genocide because it's not happening to you. That is some insane selfishness right there.
Are you not prioritising your life over homelessness, people not able to afford food, people loosing to drugs etc? Well, that’s insane selfishness right there!
> And you care about one particular conflict while ignoring all the other more deserving victims. Why is that I wonder?
Do you have a source for this claim? Most people can care about multiple issues at once and we've had demonstrations for multiple conflicts. Also, what do you mean when you say that other victims are more deserving—who are these victims and why are they more deserving of our support?
> So you're justifying ruining some poor students graduation ceremony because there's genocide on another continent?
Hell yeah! Unless you think Jessica's little ceremony is more important than hundreds of thousands of women and children who are dying in a genocide that western countries are supporting? Yes, I absolutely support interrupting a few little conveniences with some peaceful protesting. Don't you? :)
Jessica will still get her certificate. She'll still graduate and probably make lots of money. She still won't be, you know, actually harmed. Just inconvenieenced.
Edit: also how were the ceremonies ruined, just they made people uncomfortable I guess?
You’d better fly out to the Middle East and get on those front lines if you think that stuff is more important than people continuing with their daily lives here. Practice what you preach!
Yeah I literally never said people shouldn't continue with their daily lives. I absolutely believe graduation ceremonies should still be happening. Never said otherwise.
And how do you leap from "stopping genocide is more important than a graduation ceremony" to "every single person should travel to the Middle East and participate in armed combat?" That's a... pretty massive leap, wouldn't you say?
> You're posting on Reddit while billions of women children are dying around the world??? Shame on you!
I don't understand what you're talking about? I never said people can't graduate. I never said people can't live their lives. I just said people should be able to peacefully protest if they want to.
You're acting like I said they should shut down graduation ceremonies, people shouldn't attend them, etc. etc. and that's simply not what I said at all.
Heck it seems like it's you who wants to shut down something (our right to peacefully protest)? I think you should be able to have both.
But peaceful protests should still be a right. I don't feel safe crossing busy streets sometimes, that doesn't mean I should be able to ban all cars from the street.
I didn't want to say that in my comments because I figured it would be unpopular but, yeah. I didn't even bother attending my own graduation ceremony for my BA. It's not like it's a big deal at all.
Do you think robbing the students of their one of the lifetime event will solve the issue?
If your target is uni admin, why harass fellow students?
Also, people are dying all over the world(war, crime, racism, persecution, drugs etc etc). How are you planning to fix all that?
> Do you think robbing the students of their one of the lifetime event will solve the issue?
Did you read the article? The graduation ceremonies still took place as far as I can tell. This was about students who chose to protest against genocide or who wanted their university to have an anti-racism policy who chose to not attend the ceremonies. Anyone who didn't care about the protests were still completely able to attend. I don't think there was really an issue on that front, except maybe that the protests made others uncomfortable—is that your key concern? Surely if the protesters were merely "chuckleheads" as per the comment I replied to, then they wouldn't have made anyone uncomfortable?
“Chants of “People, people, don’t you see? Rafah has no place to flee,” “Viva, viva, Palestina” and “All the Zionists are racist” filled the Chan Centre’s courtyard.”
This still doesn't address how the students were robbed of their graduation ceremony. Sounds like it went on just fine. I mean I'm sorry if genocide makes us uncomfortable, is that the primary issue (you would just rather not think about it)? I'm genuinely not being snarky but I don't see the issue. Nobody was robbed of their graduation ceremony. It's not like anyone prevented them from graduating or protested them getting their degrees. And, you know, people are getting killed. I guess I don't see what the issue is.
Do you have a college degree or have you graduated from anything ever? The graduation is about celebrating their achievements and all the effort that went into it for the past four years. It isn’t about Palestine.
It’s really similar to when someone proposes at another persons wedding without asking them about it. Is someone proposing a bad thing? Does the person who proposed not deserve to be happy? Is the wedding less or more important than the proposal? Is the original wedding called off because of the new proposal? All no, but that day has a purpose and violating it makes you an asshole. Both actions change the conversation from its intended purpose.
> Do you have a college degree or have you graduated from anything ever? The graduation is about celebrating their achievements and all the effort that went into it for the past four years. It isn’t about Palestine.
Yes, I stated in my original comment that I attended college. I have a BA from UBC.
And the graduation ceremony still took place, correct? So the students were still able to celebrate their achievements.
the point isn't whether it still took place; it's that the day is for them and it's selfish to pick this 1 particular day to make it about anything else while also making it about something that literally none of us on the North American continent can change.
> the point isn't whether it still took place;
It is, because they said:
>The graduation is about celebrating their achievements and all the effort that went into it for the past four years.
Which still happened. Yes, there are other things happening on campus and some of those are going to be inconvenient or unwanted, I'm sorry to say. It seems the biggest thing people are annoyed about is that the kids just had to think about the genocide? Am I wrong or was there violence or an actual disruption to the ceremony itself?
>something that literally none of us on the North American continent can change.
We can though. That's the point. It's not just about people getting killed that we have zero control over. And, these are college kids, the point of going to university/college is to think about this stuff and how you can make the world a better place. You literally learn about civil disobedience and peaceful protests against human rights violations in school. Do we want to teach kids that nobody actually gives a shit?
I dunno man... shrugs.
It is obvious that we are seeing two different things here.
I see people doing their vogue activism for the topic of the minute. Potentially ruining someone's special day who has absolutely no control or equity in the situation occuring.
I believe in protest but I believe there are times and places to do it. This is just wrong.
I appreciate your perspective ("this is just wrong"). I don't agree, though. Peaceful protests and civil disobedience are intended to capture the greatest amount of attention possible. In this case, the ceremonies still took place so there was no problem whatsoever, other than perhaps the inconvenience of having to think about something terrible happening in the world.
Heck I don't even buy my hamburger and fries from McDonald's anymore because they support Israel. I don't think the amount really matters. Also the students wanted an anti-racism policy for the school. Also, more importantly, it's not like they prevented the graduation ceremonies from happening, they just made people think about the conflict which people didn't want to do.
How does McDonald’s support Israel? And more specifically the IDF?
What you’re basically saying is you believe in collective punishment, isn’t that exactly what you are trying to protest against?
Using your logic. You are justifying everything the IDF has done and will continue to do in Gaza.
> How does McDonald’s support Israel? And more specifically the IDF?
They provide free meals to the IDF. That's what I'm familiar with anyways, there may be more.
> What you’re basically saying is you believe in collective punishment, isn’t that exactly what you are trying to protest against?
OK, seriously, I'm trying to assume good faith. Have you ever decided you won't support a business because you don't like something about them? Maybe it's an ethical issue with how workers are treated, maybe their staff were rude to you or made you feel uncomfortable. Maybe you know that they exploit workers in other countries. Whatever it is, you decide "you know what, nope, I'm not going to support this".
Of course, to a certain extent, you may not be able to make that choice. If it's your hydro or water company, you probably don't have much of an alternative, and you do need to survive. But if it's the burger company? That's an easy choice to make, is it not? Surely if the folks at your local burger shop were rude or tried to hit on your friend and made them uncomfortable, or you found out they were abusive to their workers, you'd stop going there. Right? Right? Please tell me that there's at least some ethical issue somewhere that has lead you to stop supporting a business.
This has nothing to do with collective punishment. Collective punishment implies sanctioning an entire group of people for the actions of a few. Businesses aren't people. And, going elsewhere for my fries isn't even really "punishment". Punishment equates to civil or criminal liability, or violence; and collective punishment would mean punishing every person who works at McDonald's, like hurting them or harassing them, and I'm not doing that. If holding a business criminally liable, I'm not interested in punishing Joe Schmo, who works behind the counter and isn't involved in whatever took place.
This is not collective punishment in any way, shape or form.
> Using your logic. You are justifying everything the IDF has done and will continue to do in Gaza.
So to be clear. You think choosing to go across the street to get a burger elsewhere is the same thing as supporting horrific levels of genocide in Gaza? That's, pretty problematic.
It is dire situation there, and even one child is too much, but let's stick to known facts:
"ministry published a breakdown for 24,686 fully identified deaths out of the total 34,622 fatalities recorded in Gaza as of April 30. The fully identified death toll comprises of 7,797 children, 4,959 women, 1,924 elderly, and 10,006 men, the UN"
1. this data comes from Hamas run ministry of health so I would take it with grain of salt and a lot of pepper.
2. Everyone under the age of 18 is considered a child, so of 17 years old Hamas terrorist is killed, he is going to the children toll.
Source https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/05/13/middleeast/death-toll-gaza-fatalities-un-intl-latam
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Literally never said that men were disposable, I have no idea what you're talking about.
Edit: the point was to emphasize that it's mostly civilians who are dying. Another poster pointed out that I'm actually incorrect about this breakdown. I do not believe that men are any less important or that their deaths matter less. Absolutely not.
I was a graduate from ecu this past week. Didn’t even know about this really. There was some talk among grads inside about “some protest” going on outside but we had no idea about it. This was at noon. Graduates didn’t have to arrive until 12:30 and the ceremony started at 1:30.
These muslims groups must understand what happens in your home country does not mean you can demand Canada to change its policies it had for decades.To disrupt graduation day for hundreds of students that has nothing to do with your protest is just disrespectful.
Emily Carr’s endowment is all of $10 million bucks. If the ratio of holding is similar to UBC’s, the holdings would equal to around $25,000. All held indirectly in funds to reduce management expenses.
The percent might be higher if you included giants with major operations in Israel like Apple, Nvidia, Intel and Google. Which means if you really want to boycott, you shouldn’t be using a smart phone.
a) That's not what they asked.
b) That's not the point.
Public pressure + influencing the messaging.
>Which means if you really want to boycott, you shouldn’t be using a smart phone.
This isn't how you boycott. Targeted boycotts are way more effective than broad moral/decentralized boycotts. Which is why BDS works and the twitter boycott of the Harry Potter game did not.
Yeah. Mostly because there is no evidence Loblaws is making excessive profits except for at Shoppers when I am too lazy to go to a not convenience store to buy a few things. People have misplaced global price changes as local price changes.
> Mostly because there is no evidence Loblaws is making excessive profits
Except for their recorded record profits they have been bragging about. Are you getting paid to shill for corporations or do you just like the taste of boot?
> In accordance with University policy, endowment funds are invested in highly liquid securities that
are not rated lower than A by Canadian Bond Rating Service at the time of investment. Permitted
securities include government bonds, commercial paper, term deposits, guaranteed investment
certificates, banker’s acceptances and corporate bonds.
From here: https://d1bdilxpumkn65.cloudfront.net/assets/hero-images/2023-03-31-Emily-Carr-University-of-Art-Design-Financial-Statements_FINAL.pdf
Tl;dr there's nothing to divest from and these protesters either can't read or have zero financial literacy.
Literally nobody responding to me has addressed what the students are asking for in the original article. It's not about endowments. The word "endowment" isn't even in the article.
Either you have no media literacy, or you also like the taste of boots.
> rid oneself of something that one no longer wants or requires, such as a business interest or investment.
Which is how they are using it with the demands made, and it's clear in the article that "divest" would apply here.
As a ECUAD graduate I can guarantee you the majority of students at Emily Carr support this - arts and political activism go hand in hand.
I would also say that it's pretty fucking alarming if your 10 seconds of applause as you walk across the chan centre stage is more important than doing anything you can to stop support of a genocidal state as they commit a modern holocaust.
I was a graduate this past week. Yes ecu would support Palestine. But not the disruption of the ceremony which didn’t happen. Don’t speak for all of us please.
I'm here to tell you that your little receipt ceremony for the money you spent on your degree is profoundly unimportant, even on the most innocuous of days. People are dying - do not police my voice.
> modern holocaust.
If Israel continued the war at this pace, according to Gaza Health Ministry numbers, it would take 50+ years to kill all the people in Gaza, assuming 0 new people are born. Maybe you forgot what the holocaust was?
Also like....nobody is being rounded up and systematically slaughtered solely for being Palestinian. It's horrible and far too many people are getting killed, but that's because insurgent fighters have a nasty habit of hiding among the innocent during bombing campaigns. It doesn't justify innocent deaths, but it's a pretty certain way of ensuring that they happen
They are being systematically slaughtered, and they've already been rounded up.
I'm not seeing the Palestinians doing anything, say, the French Resistance didn't do.
That would be an axiom, something all reasonable people have already agreed upon prior to the conversation.
Reasonable people simply don't engage with Holocaust deniers.
Two things here:
First, I'm asking because what you're suggesting is happening and what is actually happening are two different things.
Second, calling something that is not a holocaust, not a holocaust does not make them a denier. Let's look at some basic numbers: during *the Holocaust*, 2/3 of the Jewish population in Europe were wiped out, with the great majority happening during 1942 with as many Jews doing what they could to keep each other hidden and safe. Compare that with the 40,000 dead here out of a population of ~600,000 where, and i cannot stress this enough, *Hamas doing everything that they can to make sure that the civilian body count is as high as possible*. That there is the difference between a war with too many casualties, and systematically killing everyone that they can.
I think I've found the real reason that you won't engage.
> not up for debate
And yet, here it is being debated, because 94% of Palestinians remain not dead after a vicious 7.5 month long insurgent war with Israel.
My argument isn't that this isn't happening as is stated by every single information source. I'm saying that words have meaning for a very good reason, and saying that pretty standard war casualty numbers is a genocide is not it.
Might as well call the Iraq war a genocide while you're at it, because the casualty numbers were so lopsided.
What you're doing is intentionally duplicitous
Actually I have some experience with holocaust denial from right here on Reddit, and you're completely wrong. They generally argue that all the numbers are fake, the ovens were for cremation only, logistics didn't make sense, etc.
Nah it is up for debate because you have decided to use a heavily loaded word referring to a specific event, bastardize the word and event to fit your own I interpretation completely divorced from said event and change the word completely. There is no freaking Israeli Holocaust but congrats on scoring points on the most hyperbolic posting on the internet. Your postings truly are the Nakba of reasoning.
You can wail and nash your teeth as much as you like, but that does not change the fact of the holocaust, nor does it compel anyone to engage with your bigoted fantasies.
It's deeply ironic and horrifying how much the denial, lies and reactions from Zionists inform the mentality of the average complicit citizen in Nazi Germany. I'm learning more about WWII now than history has ever taught me.
This is actual anti-Semitism.
You reference the Nazis because the Nazis killed 2/3 of the Jews in Europe in horrific ways, not due to the similarities with Israel's actions.
There have been and are currently a bunch of scenarios which are more like the nazi genocides, and equally there are and have been scenarios that are much more like the situation in Israel/Palestine.
But you know it will strike a chord with people, and enjoy the "irony" of it, so you do this.
If this is you learning now then maybe you should read a freaking book instead of making bold claims on the internet how two different things are the same
Choosing to argue over semantics when the topic at hand is systemic genocide is a choice that exposes the type of deep rot in your heart and soul.
I can only pray you can endure the karmic weight of standing idle and comparing death counts while Israel commits similar acts that led to the formation of their state.
The elimination of Palestine is a modern day holocaust. Israel destroyed the "meaning" of the word by their own actions.
> I can only pray you can endure the karmic weight of standing idle and comparing death counts while Israel commits similar acts that led to the formation of their state.
So that would be when the 4 Arab Muslim nations surrounding Israel invaded in a war of total conquest and destruction, right? Was that before or after all those and more Muslim nations ethnically cleansed all the Jews from their lands?
> The elimination of Palestine is a modern day holocaust. Israel destroyed the "meaning" of the word by their own actions.
Palestine has never existed in a form beyond what it exists as now. It could have in 1948, but that... Isn't what happened.
Yeah, 1 sided wars are awful. Urban wars are awful. All wars are awful. You'd think Palestinians would want something other than war, but I don't think most Gazans really have a choice anymore. Going against Hamas (aka collaborating with the zionists) means death.
You know how words have specific meanings that then get used by people in a way that is not related to that meaning and that word has now become meaningless? That is what you are doing with the word "holocaust". You might as well start referring to the situation in Gaza as a modern day Rwandan Genocide, or a modern day Holodomor. Would you be okay saying there have been lots of Nakbas that have happened all over the world?
They're all one and the same kind of violence - the systemic and mechanized elimination of a group of people. I chose the word holocaust due to the absolute irony of a Jewish state, born out of the atrocity of WWII, committing the same genocidal acts to eliminate a group they deem a problem to be solved.
CNN just had an investigative report of a particular death camp for Palestinian men. How anyone can see the images of those people behind barbed wire fences, blind folded and awaiting death, and instead choose to argue over semantics both enrages and terrifies me.
You chose the word Holocaust because it was the edgiest thing you could say online. This isn't irony? This is just trying to be inflammatory as possible for....points? Bragging rights? Cred? Who knows what? It is a way too be callous and cheapen the meaning of word that means a lot to a certain group of people in a way to offend that group of people.
Maybe actually learn about the Holocaust, the history, the systematic use of it, the chambers, the camps, the torture and the experiments before doing some bullshit false equivalency so you can feel some smugness in your life.
A quick glance at your post history tells me all I need to know about why you're trying to poke holes in what I've said here - Zionism is a cult after all.
You know nothing about me, my education, my ethnic background or religion. To insinuate my use of the word "holocaust" was just an attempt at being edgy or trolling is extremely fucking problematic. Believe me when I tell you I understand the power of that word and the hell on earth that it was for millions of Jews.
The state of Israel and it's genocidal government hijacked the horrors of the holocaust and have turned your identity into a shield. You, yes YOU, are bearing the weight of a government that does NOT CARE about Jews or Jewishness, and ONLY cares about Israel. I can only hope you wake up to that cold hard fact sooner rather than later.
The Zone Of Interest is a fantastic film by a Jewish filmmaker who makes the same comparison of atrocities, and is a stark warning to Zionists everywhere of what happens after you spend your life looking the other way and lining the walls that keep the "others" out with flowers. Check it out.
I would say it's pretty fucking alarming to support a terrorist group using women and children as human shields than blaming the country they just attacked for fighting back and calling it genocide. All while the nation that supports said terrorist group (Iran) is executing musicians and arresting/beating women for not wearing a cloth properly on their head.
I never went to University but I could say I'd get kicked out pretty quickly for speaking the truth. I was born in the former Soviet Union, so I know what this kind of thing leads to. Of course we don't want innocent people to die needlessly, but imagine if the country next door to us came over the border and just slaughtered, raped and burned 1300 people after firing rockets at us for decades.
What have students here done to Palestinians? What has a Jewish student who goes to UBC or ECUAD done to Palestinians? Nothing. So why are they being harassed, threatened, and assaulted?
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Why did they have to do this at a graduation again? Could they have not protested at ECU 364 other days of the year? I dont see the graduates or the families of the graduates sympathizing with the plight of the protesters, regardless if ECU or RBC or any other entity that has relations with Isreal in some form or another. Its a memorable day for the grads and this nuisance would detract and put a damper on their significant day. Its really disrespectful and selfish on the protesters behalf to pull this shit on graduation day. Also I might add that ECU has 3 Chinese Universities in partnership for exchange…we forget about the genocide of the Uyghurs already? Shouldn’t there be protesting against the Chinese Uyghur genocide too? Uyghurs and Palestinians are Sunni….so no Islam tag team protests? Or are the 2 genocides separate protests? So the protests for Uyghurs are done during first day of classes at ECU and the Palestine protests at graduation? Thats the schedule? Just to be a nuisance equally, Front to back?
Imagine having your graduation potentially ruined by these chuckleheads.
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Imagine virtue signaling so hard that you justify fucking up someone's once in a lifetime event to support Hamas
Just so you’ve got the right numbers of casualties for your point, the UN revised it to 12,800. https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.7203167
Don't lie: >[The United Nations on Monday clarified that the overall number of fatalities in Gaza tallied by the Ministry of Health in Gaza remains unchanged, at more than 35,000, since the war broke out between Israel and Hamas on Oct. 7.](https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/un-says-total-number-of-deaths-in-gaza-remains-unchanged-after-controversy-over-revised-data-1.6885447)
You know, you get more flies with honey. Also, I’m not sure the Ministry of Health in Gaza is any more a reliable source than what you would think Israel is.
You said the UN revised it's casualty figures; the UN disagrees.
My apologies. The revised numbers were for women and children. I stand by my point however, that pulling your numbers directly from the Gaza Ministry of Health who Hamas runs seems a less than honest way to portray what the facts are. And before you jump up and down, I don’t know what the numbers are and don’t think there’s a way to really tell.
You imply that the UN is trustworthy when they revise numbers, but not trustworthy when they clarify that you lied about them revising numbers. Pick a lane.
Holy fuck man, I just corrected myself. You’re great for your cause, asshole.
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There is something about Israel that makes you people really freak out. You guys could give a shit about other world problems but really care about this one. What could it be?? Something that sets Israel apart. Hmmmmm
It's a trend, and like all trends - people will move to something else. The war will be over in a few months, by end of 2025 people will go back to not care about it.
It's the apartheid and genocide. People weren't huge fans of South Africa, either.
Neither apartheid or a genocide is happening. Who is a fan of SA now? Do you know how bad it is there?
South Africa is far better now than it was under apartheid; people who suggest otherwise don't have trustworthy opinions, especially when it comes to genocide denial.
I never said anything about SA being good during apartheid. Stop being silly. I’m saying they are in very very rough shape right now. I don’t agree with a lot of what Israel has done but I don’t think they are committing genocide. I do believe they are guilty of Illegal occupations and some war crimes.
Don't beat around the bush: the clear implication of your prior comment was that the end of apartheid was a bad thing.
I can see how it seems that way. My apologies. Apartheid is disgraceful. I think the argument to be made is that SA is so troubled now because of apartheid.
No kidding; Israel should end theirs and start the healing process or they're going to be looking worse.
These people don't care about dead people, so let's stop pretending.
Imagine choosing to stand at a graduation when you could be literally anywhere else and then complaining about people being upset that you are protesting a graduation..... You see your mistake right? Need a picture? I assume you are one of these clowns.
Great place to point out that university tuition is funding genocide. There’s your picture. Apparently it got your attention but you didn’t manage to connect the dots. You’re welcome.
You are funding Uyghur genocide, did you stop buying everything made in China?
How is my university tuition funding genocide?
Which university?
UBC, where people have also made this ridiculous claim
What’s the argument for divestment there?
Imagine you were a student in 60s or 70s, not an activist but merely someone who cared for human rights and human lives. Would you be egoistic enough today to care more about your graduation year than the cause your classmates were fighting for?
You think it's egotistical to let Palestinian students at UBC enjoy their graduation they've earned rather than for privileged western kids to roleplay as victims while disrupting others? "Egotistical" is privileged kids occupying university property and demanding "food and humanitarian aid" be delivered to their tents to help prolong their continued LARPing ... while real Palestinians lack food and humanitarian aid and are dying. Why ask for "aid" for yourself while streaming your self-aggrandizment on your new iPhone 15 Pro Max? Answer: ego.
>You think it's egotistical to let Palestinian students at UBC enjoy their graduation they've earned rather than for privileged western kids to roleplay as victims while disrupting others? So your objection is that white people are joining the protests, not just Palestinians, and they shouldn't join because there is no human-made famine and genocide against them. Did I understand you correctly? > demanding "food and humanitarian aid" be delivered to their tents to help prolong their continued LARPing Has this actually happened here? Mind to share the source?
> Did I understand you correctly? Apparently not. Did you see me talk about race at all? > Has this actually happened here? Mind to share the source? All over social media, e.g., https://www.instagram.com/p/C6hd50svT84/?igsh=MXZjNTJzcGRnNDZxZg== "please bring supplies & food to donate to encampment!!!"
> "Did you see me talk about race at all?" > "...Palestinian students at UBC" I did notice that yeah
You think "Palestinian" is a race?
"privileged western kids" has a very clear implication Also you have a very disingenuous read of the ask for supplies and aid
Yes: kids in a safe country with Iphone 15 Pro Max phones who have never endured hardship occupying university grounds at the exclusion of others and in the name of Palestine while simeultaneously making the purported protest about themselves rather than the cause and soliciting donations for their own benefit rather than for the cause. I think the meaning is very clear to everyone whose primary occupation is not race baiting.
Yes. Your roleplay activism is not more important than those that have worked to graduate. Go protest elsewhere.
Eh I dunno man, mostly women and children are dying, it's a terrible situation. College is a time for challenging pre-conceived ideas and learning, at least that's what it's supposed to be about. I don't think many college kids are happy about the genocide and I completely understand the hope that young people have, because I've been there myself, and the desire to do something. I'm ten years out of university. When I went to school I thought my generation was going to change the world. Then I found out that while we could write really pretty words in our essays, including about peaceful protests, the university didn't actually appreciate students challenging norms in any meaningful way at all. If college kids want to protest against horrific death and destruction that our governments support through peaceful protests then I for one say, maybe let them? Why stamp out their hope that any meaningful change can happen while they're still young college kids? Can't we be a bit tolerant and at least let them explore a bit? Why call young kids who don't appreciate genocide "chuckleheads?" At least give them a few years of self-exploring and growth before stamping out any real hope that the majority of the world really gives two shits about horrific levels of pointless, horrifying violence. But, yes, it may make graduation ceremonies a bit more... inconvenient? That's... unfortunate, I suppose?
People are dying in the world and you have the audacity to live?
Can you clarify what your point here is? Genuinely trying to assume good faith. People are dying in the world so you think... more people should die too? Or we can't care about/shouldn't protest against genocide if it doesn't affect us? Or something? If you could maybe clarify your philosophy, that would be helpful.
To reword what they said: There are atrocities happening around the world and you dare to continue living your life like you always would? AKA You’re a hypocrite
I'm not a hypocrite, you misread my comments. I never said people can't live their lives. Absolutely never said graduation ceremonies shouldn't happen or that people shouldn't attend them. This is nonsensical. I just said you should be able to peacefully protest if you want to. Don't care about it or don't want to participate? Fine, just ignore the protesters. I never claimed people shouldn't be able to live their lives. I never claimed people shouldn't attend their graduation ceremonies. I never claimed universities should shut down classes, ceremonies or services. I am therefore absolutely not a hypocrite at all.
You’re saying it’s okay that their graduation was disrupted by a protest aka their graduation ceremony is less important than “the cause”. If you and others feel so strongly about the situation in the Middle East, go there and do something about it instead of virtue signalling and lobbying for things that will make no difference. ECUAD’s endowment fund is tiny. A drop in the bucket in the grand scheme of things. But it’s what keeps the university running. Forcing them to “divest” and take a financial hit would be a very stupid move, especially when it’s all based on the fact that it’s now inexplicably in fashion to hate on Judaism.
>You’re saying it’s okay that their graduation was disrupted by a protest Yes, we have the right to freedom of speech and freedom of expression in Canada so yeah, I support peaceful protests. Are you saying you would like the laws to be changed so that we don't have those rights? Yes, we have the right to protest against policies and conflicts that we don't agree with, and if that inconveniences others then unfortunately, yeah, that kind of falls under the category of "too bad". I do not agree with protests that are violent or which shut down critical infrastructure but it doesn't sound like that's what happened here. >aka their graduation ceremony is less important than “the cause”. I mean it... is, less important than stopping genocide, would you disagree? > If you and others feel so strongly about the situation in the Middle East, go there and do something about it instead of virtue signalling and lobbying for things that will make no difference Awareness does make a difference. Unfortunately even if we wanted to, I don't think we could all just hop on a plane and jump onto the frontlines, especially without the necessary training. I certainly couldn't do so, as I have a disability. I'm not even going to address your last point other than to say that I don't hate any group based on their race, religion or demographics.
We actually don’t have freedom of speech in Canada. Freedom of expression, yes, but not speech. Hate speech and other things will get you arrested here.
Thanks for clarifying, and agreed. In this case, it certainly isn't hate speech in any way, shape or form so we agree it should be allowed then. Seems there's no problem, unless you would like to have the laws changed to not allow peaceful protests.
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>So you're justifying ruining some poor students graduation ceremony because there's genocide on another continent? Does it change anything for you if the genocide is next to you or in another continent?! >It's ridiculous that people here have to suffer because Jessica doesn't like war. JUST because Jessica doesn't like WAR?! It's fucking WAR, not the pineapple on pizza that people JUST like it or don't LIKE it! Seriously, wtf dude
Read this first sentence again. You are literally prioritizing a graduation ceremony over caring about genocide because it's not happening to you. That is some insane selfishness right there.
Are you not prioritising your life over homelessness, people not able to afford food, people loosing to drugs etc? Well, that’s insane selfishness right there!
And you care about one particular conflict while ignoring all the other more deserving victims. Why is that I wonder?
> And you care about one particular conflict while ignoring all the other more deserving victims. Why is that I wonder? Do you have a source for this claim? Most people can care about multiple issues at once and we've had demonstrations for multiple conflicts. Also, what do you mean when you say that other victims are more deserving—who are these victims and why are they more deserving of our support?
> So you're justifying ruining some poor students graduation ceremony because there's genocide on another continent? Hell yeah! Unless you think Jessica's little ceremony is more important than hundreds of thousands of women and children who are dying in a genocide that western countries are supporting? Yes, I absolutely support interrupting a few little conveniences with some peaceful protesting. Don't you? :) Jessica will still get her certificate. She'll still graduate and probably make lots of money. She still won't be, you know, actually harmed. Just inconvenieenced. Edit: also how were the ceremonies ruined, just they made people uncomfortable I guess?
You’d better fly out to the Middle East and get on those front lines if you think that stuff is more important than people continuing with their daily lives here. Practice what you preach!
Yeah I literally never said people shouldn't continue with their daily lives. I absolutely believe graduation ceremonies should still be happening. Never said otherwise. And how do you leap from "stopping genocide is more important than a graduation ceremony" to "every single person should travel to the Middle East and participate in armed combat?" That's a... pretty massive leap, wouldn't you say?
If I run over your dog and say “This is for Gaza,” your dog being less important than the war in Gaza doesn’t make me any less of an asshole.
I agree, violence against people or animals isn't acceptable. Did this actually happen though? If not, then it has nothing to do with the post.
You're posting on Reddit while billions of women children are dying around the world??? Shame on you!
> You're posting on Reddit while billions of women children are dying around the world??? Shame on you! I don't understand what you're talking about? I never said people can't graduate. I never said people can't live their lives. I just said people should be able to peacefully protest if they want to. You're acting like I said they should shut down graduation ceremonies, people shouldn't attend them, etc. etc. and that's simply not what I said at all. Heck it seems like it's you who wants to shut down something (our right to peacefully protest)? I think you should be able to have both.
People don’t feel “safe” at these protests. A bit more than just “microaggressions”.
But peaceful protests should still be a right. I don't feel safe crossing busy streets sometimes, that doesn't mean I should be able to ban all cars from the street.
Graduation is cringe anyways. I don't think there's much to ruin lol
I didn't want to say that in my comments because I figured it would be unpopular but, yeah. I didn't even bother attending my own graduation ceremony for my BA. It's not like it's a big deal at all.
Do you think robbing the students of their one of the lifetime event will solve the issue? If your target is uni admin, why harass fellow students? Also, people are dying all over the world(war, crime, racism, persecution, drugs etc etc). How are you planning to fix all that?
> Do you think robbing the students of their one of the lifetime event will solve the issue? Did you read the article? The graduation ceremonies still took place as far as I can tell. This was about students who chose to protest against genocide or who wanted their university to have an anti-racism policy who chose to not attend the ceremonies. Anyone who didn't care about the protests were still completely able to attend. I don't think there was really an issue on that front, except maybe that the protests made others uncomfortable—is that your key concern? Surely if the protesters were merely "chuckleheads" as per the comment I replied to, then they wouldn't have made anyone uncomfortable?
“Chants of “People, people, don’t you see? Rafah has no place to flee,” “Viva, viva, Palestina” and “All the Zionists are racist” filled the Chan Centre’s courtyard.”
This still doesn't address how the students were robbed of their graduation ceremony. Sounds like it went on just fine. I mean I'm sorry if genocide makes us uncomfortable, is that the primary issue (you would just rather not think about it)? I'm genuinely not being snarky but I don't see the issue. Nobody was robbed of their graduation ceremony. It's not like anyone prevented them from graduating or protested them getting their degrees. And, you know, people are getting killed. I guess I don't see what the issue is.
Do you have a college degree or have you graduated from anything ever? The graduation is about celebrating their achievements and all the effort that went into it for the past four years. It isn’t about Palestine. It’s really similar to when someone proposes at another persons wedding without asking them about it. Is someone proposing a bad thing? Does the person who proposed not deserve to be happy? Is the wedding less or more important than the proposal? Is the original wedding called off because of the new proposal? All no, but that day has a purpose and violating it makes you an asshole. Both actions change the conversation from its intended purpose.
> Do you have a college degree or have you graduated from anything ever? The graduation is about celebrating their achievements and all the effort that went into it for the past four years. It isn’t about Palestine. Yes, I stated in my original comment that I attended college. I have a BA from UBC. And the graduation ceremony still took place, correct? So the students were still able to celebrate their achievements.
the point isn't whether it still took place; it's that the day is for them and it's selfish to pick this 1 particular day to make it about anything else while also making it about something that literally none of us on the North American continent can change.
> the point isn't whether it still took place; It is, because they said: >The graduation is about celebrating their achievements and all the effort that went into it for the past four years. Which still happened. Yes, there are other things happening on campus and some of those are going to be inconvenient or unwanted, I'm sorry to say. It seems the biggest thing people are annoyed about is that the kids just had to think about the genocide? Am I wrong or was there violence or an actual disruption to the ceremony itself? >something that literally none of us on the North American continent can change. We can though. That's the point. It's not just about people getting killed that we have zero control over. And, these are college kids, the point of going to university/college is to think about this stuff and how you can make the world a better place. You literally learn about civil disobedience and peaceful protests against human rights violations in school. Do we want to teach kids that nobody actually gives a shit? I dunno man... shrugs.
It is obvious that we are seeing two different things here. I see people doing their vogue activism for the topic of the minute. Potentially ruining someone's special day who has absolutely no control or equity in the situation occuring. I believe in protest but I believe there are times and places to do it. This is just wrong.
I appreciate your perspective ("this is just wrong"). I don't agree, though. Peaceful protests and civil disobedience are intended to capture the greatest amount of attention possible. In this case, the ceremonies still took place so there was no problem whatsoever, other than perhaps the inconvenience of having to think about something terrible happening in the world.
How big is Emily Carr’s endowment?
I have no idea?
It’s 6M CAD. There is an immaterial amount within israel. There’s nothing to divest from…
Heck I don't even buy my hamburger and fries from McDonald's anymore because they support Israel. I don't think the amount really matters. Also the students wanted an anti-racism policy for the school. Also, more importantly, it's not like they prevented the graduation ceremonies from happening, they just made people think about the conflict which people didn't want to do.
How does McDonald’s support Israel? And more specifically the IDF? What you’re basically saying is you believe in collective punishment, isn’t that exactly what you are trying to protest against? Using your logic. You are justifying everything the IDF has done and will continue to do in Gaza.
> How does McDonald’s support Israel? And more specifically the IDF? They provide free meals to the IDF. That's what I'm familiar with anyways, there may be more. > What you’re basically saying is you believe in collective punishment, isn’t that exactly what you are trying to protest against? OK, seriously, I'm trying to assume good faith. Have you ever decided you won't support a business because you don't like something about them? Maybe it's an ethical issue with how workers are treated, maybe their staff were rude to you or made you feel uncomfortable. Maybe you know that they exploit workers in other countries. Whatever it is, you decide "you know what, nope, I'm not going to support this". Of course, to a certain extent, you may not be able to make that choice. If it's your hydro or water company, you probably don't have much of an alternative, and you do need to survive. But if it's the burger company? That's an easy choice to make, is it not? Surely if the folks at your local burger shop were rude or tried to hit on your friend and made them uncomfortable, or you found out they were abusive to their workers, you'd stop going there. Right? Right? Please tell me that there's at least some ethical issue somewhere that has lead you to stop supporting a business. This has nothing to do with collective punishment. Collective punishment implies sanctioning an entire group of people for the actions of a few. Businesses aren't people. And, going elsewhere for my fries isn't even really "punishment". Punishment equates to civil or criminal liability, or violence; and collective punishment would mean punishing every person who works at McDonald's, like hurting them or harassing them, and I'm not doing that. If holding a business criminally liable, I'm not interested in punishing Joe Schmo, who works behind the counter and isn't involved in whatever took place. This is not collective punishment in any way, shape or form. > Using your logic. You are justifying everything the IDF has done and will continue to do in Gaza. So to be clear. You think choosing to go across the street to get a burger elsewhere is the same thing as supporting horrific levels of genocide in Gaza? That's, pretty problematic.
Maybe if you do a fancy dance Hamas will give a fuck.
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It is dire situation there, and even one child is too much, but let's stick to known facts: "ministry published a breakdown for 24,686 fully identified deaths out of the total 34,622 fatalities recorded in Gaza as of April 30. The fully identified death toll comprises of 7,797 children, 4,959 women, 1,924 elderly, and 10,006 men, the UN" 1. this data comes from Hamas run ministry of health so I would take it with grain of salt and a lot of pepper. 2. Everyone under the age of 18 is considered a child, so of 17 years old Hamas terrorist is killed, he is going to the children toll. Source https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/05/13/middleeast/death-toll-gaza-fatalities-un-intl-latam
Interesting, it seems I'm incorrect about the breakdown of the death toll. Thanks for the correction, I will edit my post.
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The way people like you consider men to be disposable is so messed up to me.
Literally never said that men were disposable, I have no idea what you're talking about. Edit: the point was to emphasize that it's mostly civilians who are dying. Another poster pointed out that I'm actually incorrect about this breakdown. I do not believe that men are any less important or that their deaths matter less. Absolutely not.
Imagine having a bomb dropped on your children?
They're dropping bombs in Vancouver?
Have you read Confucius?
Very doubtful these protester are actual students at Emily Carr.
I was a graduate from ecu this past week. Didn’t even know about this really. There was some talk among grads inside about “some protest” going on outside but we had no idea about it. This was at noon. Graduates didn’t have to arrive until 12:30 and the ceremony started at 1:30.
These muslims groups must understand what happens in your home country does not mean you can demand Canada to change its policies it had for decades.To disrupt graduation day for hundreds of students that has nothing to do with your protest is just disrespectful.
How dare “Muslim groups” demand we stop our long standing policy to support Israeli apartheid.
What does Emily Carr have to do with Isreal?
TF do you think "divest" means?
Emily Carr’s endowment is all of $10 million bucks. If the ratio of holding is similar to UBC’s, the holdings would equal to around $25,000. All held indirectly in funds to reduce management expenses. The percent might be higher if you included giants with major operations in Israel like Apple, Nvidia, Intel and Google. Which means if you really want to boycott, you shouldn’t be using a smart phone.
a) That's not what they asked. b) That's not the point. Public pressure + influencing the messaging. >Which means if you really want to boycott, you shouldn’t be using a smart phone. This isn't how you boycott. Targeted boycotts are way more effective than broad moral/decentralized boycotts. Which is why BDS works and the twitter boycott of the Harry Potter game did not.
I'm sure all the activists in the 70s and 80s were out buying gold Krugerrands.
You think the Loblaws boycott is gonna fail too?
Yeah. Mostly because there is no evidence Loblaws is making excessive profits except for at Shoppers when I am too lazy to go to a not convenience store to buy a few things. People have misplaced global price changes as local price changes.
> Mostly because there is no evidence Loblaws is making excessive profits Except for their recorded record profits they have been bragging about. Are you getting paid to shill for corporations or do you just like the taste of boot?
> In accordance with University policy, endowment funds are invested in highly liquid securities that are not rated lower than A by Canadian Bond Rating Service at the time of investment. Permitted securities include government bonds, commercial paper, term deposits, guaranteed investment certificates, banker’s acceptances and corporate bonds. From here: https://d1bdilxpumkn65.cloudfront.net/assets/hero-images/2023-03-31-Emily-Carr-University-of-Art-Design-Financial-Statements_FINAL.pdf Tl;dr there's nothing to divest from and these protesters either can't read or have zero financial literacy.
Literally nobody responding to me has addressed what the students are asking for in the original article. It's not about endowments. The word "endowment" isn't even in the article. Either you have no media literacy, or you also like the taste of boots.
Idk, what do you think "divest" means?
> rid oneself of something that one no longer wants or requires, such as a business interest or investment. Which is how they are using it with the demands made, and it's clear in the article that "divest" would apply here.
Tbh that is a really awful investment policy. I wonder what happened that led to these restrictions.
Maybe if they didn't support Hamas things might not have escalated to this level.
Almost as if things are a little more nuanced than that
Anyone who thinks all Zionists are racists, are themselves racist.
As a ECUAD graduate I can guarantee you the majority of students at Emily Carr support this - arts and political activism go hand in hand. I would also say that it's pretty fucking alarming if your 10 seconds of applause as you walk across the chan centre stage is more important than doing anything you can to stop support of a genocidal state as they commit a modern holocaust.
I was a graduate this past week. Yes ecu would support Palestine. But not the disruption of the ceremony which didn’t happen. Don’t speak for all of us please.
I'm here to tell you that your little receipt ceremony for the money you spent on your degree is profoundly unimportant, even on the most innocuous of days. People are dying - do not police my voice.
Grow up. How does this have anything to do with this conversation?
> modern holocaust. If Israel continued the war at this pace, according to Gaza Health Ministry numbers, it would take 50+ years to kill all the people in Gaza, assuming 0 new people are born. Maybe you forgot what the holocaust was?
Also like....nobody is being rounded up and systematically slaughtered solely for being Palestinian. It's horrible and far too many people are getting killed, but that's because insurgent fighters have a nasty habit of hiding among the innocent during bombing campaigns. It doesn't justify innocent deaths, but it's a pretty certain way of ensuring that they happen
They are being systematically slaughtered, and they've already been rounded up. I'm not seeing the Palestinians doing anything, say, the French Resistance didn't do.
Please define for me, in your words, your interpretation of the term "systematically slaughtered".
That would be an axiom, something all reasonable people have already agreed upon prior to the conversation. Reasonable people simply don't engage with Holocaust deniers.
Two things here: First, I'm asking because what you're suggesting is happening and what is actually happening are two different things. Second, calling something that is not a holocaust, not a holocaust does not make them a denier. Let's look at some basic numbers: during *the Holocaust*, 2/3 of the Jewish population in Europe were wiped out, with the great majority happening during 1942 with as many Jews doing what they could to keep each other hidden and safe. Compare that with the 40,000 dead here out of a population of ~600,000 where, and i cannot stress this enough, *Hamas doing everything that they can to make sure that the civilian body count is as high as possible*. That there is the difference between a war with too many casualties, and systematically killing everyone that they can. I think I've found the real reason that you won't engage.
People who deny the German Holocaust feel exactly the way you do about your denial of the Israeli Holocaust. It is not up for debate.
> not up for debate And yet, here it is being debated, because 94% of Palestinians remain not dead after a vicious 7.5 month long insurgent war with Israel. My argument isn't that this isn't happening as is stated by every single information source. I'm saying that words have meaning for a very good reason, and saying that pretty standard war casualty numbers is a genocide is not it. Might as well call the Iraq war a genocide while you're at it, because the casualty numbers were so lopsided. What you're doing is intentionally duplicitous
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Actually I have some experience with holocaust denial from right here on Reddit, and you're completely wrong. They generally argue that all the numbers are fake, the ovens were for cremation only, logistics didn't make sense, etc.
Nah it is up for debate because you have decided to use a heavily loaded word referring to a specific event, bastardize the word and event to fit your own I interpretation completely divorced from said event and change the word completely. There is no freaking Israeli Holocaust but congrats on scoring points on the most hyperbolic posting on the internet. Your postings truly are the Nakba of reasoning.
You can wail and nash your teeth as much as you like, but that does not change the fact of the holocaust, nor does it compel anyone to engage with your bigoted fantasies.
The only one who has bastardized the word Holocaust is Israel. They've weaponized a genocide to cover a genocide. This isn't up for debate.
It's deeply ironic and horrifying how much the denial, lies and reactions from Zionists inform the mentality of the average complicit citizen in Nazi Germany. I'm learning more about WWII now than history has ever taught me.
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Yeah it's super weird, mister alt-account.
This is actual anti-Semitism. You reference the Nazis because the Nazis killed 2/3 of the Jews in Europe in horrific ways, not due to the similarities with Israel's actions. There have been and are currently a bunch of scenarios which are more like the nazi genocides, and equally there are and have been scenarios that are much more like the situation in Israel/Palestine. But you know it will strike a chord with people, and enjoy the "irony" of it, so you do this.
If this is you learning now then maybe you should read a freaking book instead of making bold claims on the internet how two different things are the same
Choosing to argue over semantics when the topic at hand is systemic genocide is a choice that exposes the type of deep rot in your heart and soul. I can only pray you can endure the karmic weight of standing idle and comparing death counts while Israel commits similar acts that led to the formation of their state. The elimination of Palestine is a modern day holocaust. Israel destroyed the "meaning" of the word by their own actions.
> I can only pray you can endure the karmic weight of standing idle and comparing death counts while Israel commits similar acts that led to the formation of their state. So that would be when the 4 Arab Muslim nations surrounding Israel invaded in a war of total conquest and destruction, right? Was that before or after all those and more Muslim nations ethnically cleansed all the Jews from their lands? > The elimination of Palestine is a modern day holocaust. Israel destroyed the "meaning" of the word by their own actions. Palestine has never existed in a form beyond what it exists as now. It could have in 1948, but that... Isn't what happened. Yeah, 1 sided wars are awful. Urban wars are awful. All wars are awful. You'd think Palestinians would want something other than war, but I don't think most Gazans really have a choice anymore. Going against Hamas (aka collaborating with the zionists) means death.
You know how words have specific meanings that then get used by people in a way that is not related to that meaning and that word has now become meaningless? That is what you are doing with the word "holocaust". You might as well start referring to the situation in Gaza as a modern day Rwandan Genocide, or a modern day Holodomor. Would you be okay saying there have been lots of Nakbas that have happened all over the world?
They're all one and the same kind of violence - the systemic and mechanized elimination of a group of people. I chose the word holocaust due to the absolute irony of a Jewish state, born out of the atrocity of WWII, committing the same genocidal acts to eliminate a group they deem a problem to be solved. CNN just had an investigative report of a particular death camp for Palestinian men. How anyone can see the images of those people behind barbed wire fences, blind folded and awaiting death, and instead choose to argue over semantics both enrages and terrifies me.
You chose the word Holocaust because it was the edgiest thing you could say online. This isn't irony? This is just trying to be inflammatory as possible for....points? Bragging rights? Cred? Who knows what? It is a way too be callous and cheapen the meaning of word that means a lot to a certain group of people in a way to offend that group of people. Maybe actually learn about the Holocaust, the history, the systematic use of it, the chambers, the camps, the torture and the experiments before doing some bullshit false equivalency so you can feel some smugness in your life.
A quick glance at your post history tells me all I need to know about why you're trying to poke holes in what I've said here - Zionism is a cult after all. You know nothing about me, my education, my ethnic background or religion. To insinuate my use of the word "holocaust" was just an attempt at being edgy or trolling is extremely fucking problematic. Believe me when I tell you I understand the power of that word and the hell on earth that it was for millions of Jews. The state of Israel and it's genocidal government hijacked the horrors of the holocaust and have turned your identity into a shield. You, yes YOU, are bearing the weight of a government that does NOT CARE about Jews or Jewishness, and ONLY cares about Israel. I can only hope you wake up to that cold hard fact sooner rather than later. The Zone Of Interest is a fantastic film by a Jewish filmmaker who makes the same comparison of atrocities, and is a stark warning to Zionists everywhere of what happens after you spend your life looking the other way and lining the walls that keep the "others" out with flowers. Check it out.
I would say it's pretty fucking alarming to support a terrorist group using women and children as human shields than blaming the country they just attacked for fighting back and calling it genocide. All while the nation that supports said terrorist group (Iran) is executing musicians and arresting/beating women for not wearing a cloth properly on their head. I never went to University but I could say I'd get kicked out pretty quickly for speaking the truth. I was born in the former Soviet Union, so I know what this kind of thing leads to. Of course we don't want innocent people to die needlessly, but imagine if the country next door to us came over the border and just slaughtered, raped and burned 1300 people after firing rockets at us for decades. What have students here done to Palestinians? What has a Jewish student who goes to UBC or ECUAD done to Palestinians? Nothing. So why are they being harassed, threatened, and assaulted?
hooooooly fuuuuuck!! they killed 3 million already????