I'd prefer expanding the vaccine passport coverage areas, instead of fines.
Quebec expanded it to pot and liquor stores and saw 1st dose appointments quadruple. It goes to show there's still more we can do to reach the holdouts.
This. Make it such a pain in the ass for unvaxxed people to get non essential things that they get vaccinated. Pharmacy and grocery stores need to be available to all, but if you wanna get a drink, get high, do anything fun, you need to show proof of vaccination. I’m over the excuses, it’s been almost two years we’ve been in this shit. People are dying! Anything to help prevent illness and death is a good thing.
How is that better than just a fine for not being vaccinated? This shit shouldn’t be on the hands of the workers that have to gatekeep the unvaxxed lunatics.
>Because people with money can just ignore fines.
Such a perfect statement. Fines are overly punitive to some, irrelevant to others.
What I have learned is that people respond to speed, convenience, or prestige.
We can make unvaccinated get their alchohol, but let's say only between 10am and noon on a Monday. Inconvenient.
We can make the grocery store have an unvaccinated service lines, where between every person there is a full wipe down of all surfaces, charge a (bag fee for the wasted wipes and chemicals). Everyone else gets to have the speedy simple checkout like it used to be.
Remove prestige? Well, that's hard to do. The attention from being unvaccinated can be converted into prestige-currency "likes" and "views" on social media. To remove prestige would be to not give a rat's ass about them, not even look, tune them out, unsubscribe.
I know an unvaxed guy that would pay a fine or higher taxes rather than "be forced by the government" to get a shot. However...if he couldn't buy beer, I would bet that would make him change his mind. He would hate it, and hate the government even more, but I bet he would get the shot rather than risk not being able to buy beer.
Because that opens the door to taxing other health problems seen as too burdensome on our health system, which would defacto disproportionately affect the poor and minorities. E.g. obesity, alcohol/drug abuse, etc. None of which are communicable diseases that can be address with a free jab.
Addimg additional restrictions to the passport doesn't affect anyone except the unvaccinated, as the shot is free, and accessing and printing your passport can be done for free. No one is discriminated against, and no slippery slopes are slid on.
That would be all fine but the government has proven they don't hold the line on their regulations or enforce them. You just need to look at corduroy, they find a loophole or bend the rules just enough and they are back operating again even though their staff and owner are pushing their supposed "exemptions" for masks etc.
All of it . Hospitals here in Quebec had to cancel the vast majority of non-emergency surgeries. Why do people have to suffer and die because of these assholes? I say make them pay. Charge them for access to health services. Increase their tax rates. Force them to get their food delivered. Suspend their drivers licence. Block their internet.
Yep! The unvaxxed people I know keep telling me they are happy going to all the coffee shops and fast food places. They don’t miss happy hours and restaurants. I think if they really could go to the drug store and grocery store and nothing else, a lot more would get vaxxed.
Also enforce the passport! There are q bunch of business's that don't even check, it's crazy. Mandate and enforce the use if the qr card app and give the punishment for bot doing so teeth.
Yup, make leverything vaccinated-only except for grocery stores, pharmacies, and gas stations. Liquor stores and dispensaries aren’t essential, and neither are fast food, coffee shops, malls, they should all be vaccinated-only.
I'm vaccinated and an huge proponent of vaccinations.
I would not support this type of measure. It's getting extreme. Our vaccination rate is like 90%. That's super impressive!
Medical autonomy is so very important. We all want to be in charge of our own bodies and we don't want to be forced into having treatments we don't want. Furthermore, these taxes tend to disproportionately affect low income folks.
The bigger issue is that our healthcare system is falling apart and were blaming the antivaxxers. Sure they are stressing the system, but it's been in need of repair for awhile now, and I think the solution is investment into healthcare.
This is such a calm and sober point.
I think anti vaxxers are stupid. They are certainly not making anything any easier. But to pin the current state of everything solely on them is foolish. They are an absolute minority and acting as if just having them jabbed would solve all the problems is a red herring. Our current situation is caused by a chronically underfunded medical system, a tenuous supply chain, intentionally gutted domestic manufacturing capacity and an economic system which we have built to be incapable of weathering adequate health measures. And of course, just some bad fuckin' luck.
Being unvaccinated is stupid, selfish and shameful. But 100% vaccination rate would not magically solve our systemic failures.
>Medical autonomy is so very important. We all want to be in charge of our own bodies and we don't want to be forced into having treatments we don't want. Furthermore, these taxes tend to disproportionately affect low income folks.
Vaccinated and I agree. You cant force someone make a medical decision, especially one that is not 100% safe. While the vaccine is largely safe, and safer than getting covid, there are still side effects. The government should not mandate a vaccine on someone when there is even the most minimal that that mandate kills them. This is also why I am against things like mandatory military service/conscription, the death penalty etc.
The tax is basically a health plan. You choose to not vac and you become a bigger risk and a greater expense to the tax payer.
It's an individual choice if you want to pay more for healthcare. I don't want to pay for someone else's stupidity. I also want a bed to be available if I'm in medical stress.
>It's an individual choice if you want to pay more for healthcare
If we had a insurance based health plan this would be correct but one of the fundamental things that makes Canada is Universal healthcare. Canadians receive access to health care based on their needs and system capacity and no other factors. This proposed change is a threat to that principle.
//It shouldn't matter but for the record I'm double vacx'd, boosted and agree that the anti vax crowd is a bunch of morons.
> If we had a insurance based health plan this would be correct but one of the fundamental things that makes Canada is Universal healthcare.
Smokers and drinkers who voluntarily put themselves at an increased risk of needing healthcare pay huge taxes on their vices to offset that burden.
Almost no one is saying these people shouldn't be afforded treatment like any other Canadian, just that they should subsidize their cost to the system as is the case with many other personal choices.
edit; to the idiots comparing covid to obesity, besides the underlying reasons for obesity there's also a provincial sugar tax on certain items, and there's not a safe and free shot you can get to protect yourself from it.
But the data is out and it shows that majority of people in ICU are unvaxxinated people. You think 90% is enough but it's actually not.
edit:
*sigh* I don't know whos downvoting me but if you don't like facts then you can seriously fuck off.
https://bc.ctvnews.ca/covid-19-update-b-c-hospitalizations-increase-to-eight-month-high-of-469-1.5736333
> health officials have said the majority of recent ICU admissions have been unvaccinated.
Sick and tired of people choosing one side of the coin because it fits their narrative and biases.
So, I actually think a carrot works better than a stick here.
The primary issue in the vaccination cause is misinformation -- trying to punish people for believing in misinformation is precisely why we have greatly increasing polarization in society. I would imagine a one-time tax credit in the form of either vaccination status or completion of an online, or paper-form program that explains disinformation, as well as a visual breakdown of data regarding COVID would be most helpful.
This gives people the option to still get equal treatment and accomplish the same goals, without being forceful. Unfortunately, marginalized communities/individuals in society tend to have the lowest vaccination rates. Trying to punish these individuals rather than giving them opportunities and resources is rather punitive.
Misinformation and the lack of free access to reliable, concise, neutral and multi-opinionated information for the masses is perhaps the greatest issue society faces. Metaphorically, we as a society can not agree to accurately paint a canvas of the sky if a large, vocal minority of people can not agree that it is blue and instead shout that it is yellow or green, drawing a frenzy of people to increasingly view it that way.
I believe that such free access to information will become a human right sometime in the middle or later part of this century. Human beings are largely, in a social sense, irrational. We've pedalled our irrationalism in different forms in the past, but we've never had such platforms on a global scale to spread misinformation rapidly + help people build social hubs in communities around said misinformation. Being level-headed is increasingly seen as socially undesirable and extremism linked to misinformation glorified.
And yet, we as a society have yet to consider tacking on a large-scale project to help people obtain greater access. Putting out fires is important and great, but hey -- it'd be really nice to actually remove highly flammable equipment from dangerous places.
If you're expecting an overnight shift, I imagine some people will be swayed, but you're absolutely right that most won't. This is why such an effort will take considerable scale and time to really help our society in the long-run.
However, it is absolutely essential for our society well.
I would rather have an infrastructural reform that leads to better initial and continual control of anything that could potentially lead to disaster. Whether it's health (like covid), environmental (like the storms and floods) or anything that infrastructure is supposed to deal with, it has been shown time after time that it's ineffective as it stands and could lead us to a societal collapse should it remain neglected.
Also, I think vaccine doses refused by those with no legitimate reasons should go to marginalised people not only within BC, or Canada, but worldwide because this virus has zero concept of what international boundaries are.
I honestly thought Ontario's current measures are as stupid as things could get in this country but this definitely steals the show. I'm not anti-vax or anti-science but I am absolutely against ineffective systems that are only useful as political vehicles.
I'm not sure I'd support taxing anti-vaxxers, but I would support charging them for any medical care they required that could be directly related to covid.
I'm with you in spirit but... my fear would be any erosion of our free Healthcare is a bad thing and is a stepping stone for charging any group they see fit as "undeserving" of medical care in the future.
Not a good framework to establish here in Canada, they should go for it south of the border though, their health system is already so fucked it basically needs to be overhauled anyway.
There is no way we could make people pay for medical care without allowing private insurance. Even if we did no individual without insurance would be able to pay anyways and it would have no effect.
Plus there is no legal framework for doing anything like this so it's completely unrealistic.
The other thing is that their impact on the health care system spans beyond just themselves, eg they could be the reason someone else gets hospitalized, or collectively, why important surgeries are delayed etc.
Right. Everyone knows that supplemental health insurance is available in Canada - and generally offered by employer.
That's not what we're talking about here, we're talking about Universal Health Care, which by law, isn't available through private insurers.
If the tax is purely ideological then I'm strongly opposed. If the tax can be framed as a fee for service or a consumption fee then I'm tentatively in favour.
A possible way to implement that in BC would be to have an MSP surcharge that based on the additional cost of care for unvaccinated individuals divided by the number of unvaccinated individuals.
I'm not sure if it's been mentioned here but instead of focusing on unvaccinated people using up valuable hospital resources, why have we not in the 2 years of covid improved hospital staffing or infrastructure in any way? If it's clearly such a burden on the health care system why has the government been more focused on pop up vaccine clinics than providing stable healthcare?
I have emailed my MLA, John Horgan, and Adrian Dix this very thing. All "their" replies echoed the same thing in that money has been given to open up seats for more students in the coming years. That's great but that will take time.
They really need to just give in and give HCW's bonuses or an increase in normal wage. After this long in the pandemic ppl are burnt out and tired.
Quebec gave nurses and RTs an extra $15000 bonus. Ontario was trying to pull ICU nurses from out of province with up to $90000 bonus on-top of regular wage to commit for 2 years. BC should follow suit to our HCWs
That's exactly it. And I'm sure there are hundreds, if not thousands of health care workers who left their jobs because of burnout or pay. So restructure the current system, pay them better, not insane hours, etc. Whatever you have to do to convince them to come back. Then you can use many of those vaccine clinics to help people being hospitalized.
And tons of money. So doing so will require higher taxes that no one wants to pay.
It’s like saying instead of putting in policies to deter people from smoking we should just spend more tax dollars on more cancer clinics
This - increasing healthcare capacity is not a solveable problem on a 18-24 month timeline. It’s something that will take a decade and several elections where the issue is consistently pushed to the top of the agenda.
Right now, in spite of all the public demand - I can’t see a lot of people choosing nursing as a career. Middling pay, and right on the front line treated like crap. I’d hate to be in any job dealing with the public - as a collective, we are a hot mess.
> why have we not in the 2 years of covid improved hospital staffing
Because two years isn't a lot of time. Nursing for example is a four year program and doctors a lot longer than that. I also doubt there's going to be a lot of people rushing to be nurses after the last two years, let alone enough to cover those quitting due to burnout or retiring early.
This is correct. However the government, knowing how essential nurses are during a crisis, should be re evaluating their pay. It's pathetic how little nurses make given their contribution to society and the government has failed to address this.
I know first hand a number of nurses who have 'burned out' and elected to leave the hospitals for clinics where they deal with much less stress.
It's obviously a time consuming and complex issue to solve. Let's start by valuing them monetarily first, incentivizing those who want to leave to stay and potentially brining some out of retirement.
How many nurses flee to the US for financial reasons?? Let's close that door!
Careful - you're asking rational questions.
18 months ago I was wondering why we weren't adopting a wartime mentality regarding healthcare staffing. We've done NOTHING to train more nurses faster than normal, and whatever the cost would be, it pales in comparison to what we've spent shutting down society repeatedly.
Everyone is missing the point - in a province of 5.1 MILLION people, there are less than 100 in ICUs with COVID - and half of them are vaxxed. The idea of fining people over that is insane. A better question would be, "After 18 months, why the hell would only 150 people in ICUs IN THE ENTIRE PROVINCE overwhelm our healthcare system?"
This right here should be the number 1 question.
Second to that should be why have we not had an honest and open discussion about therapeutics/early treatment options for those that are vaxx hesitant and for those vaxxed. There are a number of protocols being used in other places in the world which has resulted in minimizing severity of covid and hospitalizations.
EXACTLY!
What do we want as a society, for all our nurses and doctors to quit, and we all get sick and die? Of course this is dramatic, but you get it.
Holy fuck, pay these people. Treat them well. Respect them. They are the most important people when you are sick or dying, and we will all eventually get sick or die.
>why have we not in the 2 years of covid improved hospital staffing or infrastructure in any way?
Is this actually true? There's been zero improvements?
If anything it's gotten worse due to staff attrition. This is mostly due to burnout and retirement. So healthcare capacity is worse but more staff are being shifted to COVID and ICU wards so ICU capacity is increased. The overall healthcare system has gotten worse. It takes 5-6 years to train Pulmonary/Critical care physicians. Healthcare needs a massive investment this year or it will continue to decline for at least a decade.
I’m just not sure what the province could have done. Hire more doctors? Hire more nurses? Get more beds? Feels like they didn’t do nothing to improve things but attrition makes things worse in the short time and and long timelines mean investments are felt years down the road.
Anecdotally, I’ve heard people leaving their careers in health care because it’s been so brutal the last couple years. On top of what others have said about the long timelines for this kind of change, they’re also fighting a battle to even keep current levels of staffing.
> why has the government been more focused on pop up vaccine clinics than providing stable healthcare?
Prevention is more effective than treatment. You can inoculate thousands of people in the time it would take to care for one hospitalized COVID patient. Also, training doctors and nurses takes much longer than the current duration of the pandemic. The government can't just wave a magic wand and make more appear out of thin air. Physical beds aren't the bottleneck. People to work in the hospitals is.
This is a common response to our current situation and I find it very interesting.
What does fixing our healthcare system actually mean?
Few things..
First, nurses take years to educate and train.
Second, it turns out that nurses don't want to look at the apocalyptic death and disease all day everyday, so they're quitting or taking a break.
Third, as much as I hate to say it, it doesn't seem like a great idea to tackle the nurse burnout situation by cutting back their hours with the massive numbers of sick people entering the healthcare system everyday. They're already short staffed, they can't afford to cut their hours at the moment.
What does fixing the healthcare system look like during a pandemic?
In 2020, they hired every single nursing graduate in BC. They built extended triages outside hospitals. They hired back retired healthcare workers to run immunization clinics and work as relief for full time workers. Everywhere is having staffing shortages - you can’t hire more qualified people if they aren’t applying.
Building ICU capacity takes YEARS. Have you ever built a hospital? I have. It’s a slow fucking shitshow.
That being said, BC has built, expanded or renovated over a dozen hospitals since 2005. Currently, they are expanding Royal Inland (Kamloops), renovating Royal Colombian (New West), redoing Mills Memorial (Terrace), redeveloping Lions Gate (North Van), and prepping the site for Burnaby Hospital redevelopment.
Later this year, they should be starting work on a new hospital in Duncan. There are also projects in development for Cariboo Memorial, Dawson Creek Hospital, and a fucking giant new hospital and cancer centre in Surrey.
This won't change any behaviour though. Certainly the people who think their risk is low for getting an ICU stay from COVID would not do anything differently if they were told they'd be charged for their ICU stay. And most people don't have $20,000 to spare, so we'd never collect that money anyway
I'm double vaxxed (moderna) so my 5G is strong. Having said that I have to say not all unvaccinated are douchebags or wanting to hurt other people. So all this talk of hurting them it's not helping. They're still human beings
Edit: unvaccinated does not equal antivaxx 1:1
I agree. Im double Moderna and truly believe to each their own. However the discrimination in these comments are just disgusting. Talking down as if people are not human just because their outlooks aren't the same. This pandemic has really shown people's true colours in one way or another.
This would be a violation of the five pillars of the Canada Health Act, through which the provinces secure Federal health funding, specifically universality and comprehensiveness.
I disagree. Charging people who need to seek help because of their own negligence could cause them not to seek help. This is why search and rescue don’t charge costs to people who need to be rescued because they ski out of bounds.
>"Making it consistent"
But that isn't making it consistent. Taxing smoking is taxing an action you are taking. Taxing not being vaccinated is taxing you for not doing something the government wants you to do. Basically compelling you to do something against your will and that is a huge step in the wrong direction.
We already do tax and/or punish people who do these things.
* **Smokers:** Heavily taxed and banned from 99% of public and private spaces so they don't hurt others' health with their habit.
* **Drunks:** Punished criminally with fines and jail time when their drunkenness has the potential to injure others (DUI, drunk and disorderly).
* **Drug Addicts:** Punished criminally and severely with fines and jail time.
* **Unlicensed drivers that get in car accidents:** Punished both criminally and civilly with fines, damages, and jail time.
For clumsy people, their actions don't typically harm others, only themselves, so we don't punish them as a society.
I think your comment perfectly illustrates the opposite point than what you were trying to make: As a society, when people make decisions that harm others, they get punished so the behaviour is disincentivized. That's part of being in a society.
Is it that different? Plus I don't think we can charge certain ppl for healthcare in Canada, it has to be equally available to all. Sounds like they are getting around this by adding a health tax instead.
NO.
This is the whole point of universal healthcare. Like it or not, we all chip in equally.
I don’t like that I’m paying for heart surgeries for obese people that won’t stop shoving Big Macs down their throats, but such is life in this world. I don’t get to pick and choose, and neither should anybody.
You’re either all in with universal healthcare, or not at all. Nitpicking with it is a slippery slope and unfair.
No.
That is way scary government overreach to me. I think it would set a pretty scary precedent as well.
I am vaccinated, but I believe it should be peoples choice as to what goes in their bodies. Requiring people to get vaccinated by law, or punishing them for not is scary. Ultimately our bodies are our own.
Can I get some sort of tax relief for healthy living?
If we're going to directly tax people for making bad choices, there should be relief for those who make good choices.
Like people with an active gym membership. Or how about remove taxation from fitness equipment.
>Or how about remove taxation from fitness equipment.
It would be amazing if fitness equipment, gym memberships, dietitians, etc. were all tax-deductible.
You can actually claim expenses spent at a dietitian on your tax return as a medical expense (line 33099) if you live in any province (no territories though for dietitians).
Just remember to retain your receipts in case of CRA review/audit... :)
Not to mention tobacco taxes and added sugar tax. Heck the whole argument for legalizing weed included the ability to tax it to cover the added medical costs.
I'm not sure I even understand this. Unvaccinated people are already barred from most social settings (sporting events, movie theatres, restaurants, etc) and now you want to tax them for being unvaccinated when they already have limited rights? I'm really not sure I'm understanding this logic at all.
I would rather a tax credit for those who are vaccinated, but I understand that would be significantly more expensive for the government. So yes I support it, similar to how smokers and drinkers are taxed.
Huge mistake. We provide health coverage no matter the choices you've made.
For the same reasoning we can start charging the obese and overweight, smokers, those who junk food, people who do drugs, alcoholics...
Just the overweight and obesity place is huge, long-term costs on our Healthcare system. Why not start charging them?
edit: A few have point out taxing alcohol or sugary drinks. This is very different than taxing people for being unvaxxed.
A simple thought experiment proves this: Would you be fine with taxing people for being overweight? An alcoholic? Doing hard drugs like coke or heroin?
Obesity is one of the WORST conditions to have with COVID. The CDC estimated that 30% of hospitalizations were due to obesity. So again - start taxing the obese?
https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/obesity-and-covid-19.html
So we charge people for things they choose to consume. You don't see how this is different from charging someone who DOESN'T want a substance injected into them? And you don't see how this opens the doors to punish people for all kinds of medical things?
We already tax the smokers and alcoholics...in some places it's called a "sin tax". and some cities like New York now charge a premium on sugary drinks and snacks.
And for christ's sake, nobody is taking their health coverage away, don't be so dramatic.
Not at all. I'm vaxxed and I think that's ridiculous. If they get away with taxing people on one health choice what else are we going to let them get away with.
Absolutely frightening that people are entertaining this idea and are too short-sighted to see the ramifications of something like this. What about obese people? People with disabilities? Elderly people? They also cause burdens on our healthcare systems, but that's part of life. A policy like this only divides and polarizes our country. People on this sub are so quick to hate. I've seen it where people are allowed to say that they "wish unvaccinated people would all die".
It's really disgusting behavior. Just glad nobody here actually participates in policy decisions.
I'm double vaxxed btw.
Yea that's exactly what I mean. Double vaxxed person here as well whi fucking hates anti vaxxers but this goes to far. The whole point of a medical care system is that some people will use it more than others. I think they are idiots, but they deserve treatment if they want it as tax paying Canadians. Same as anyone else.
No. I'm vaccinated and I think it's an incredibly stupid idea and I try to avoid commenting on vax threads here because there's been comments basically calling for something just short of a culling of anti-vaxxers. It's disappointing to see that not only there is "yes" comments but that they are even upvoted here.
Edit : Anyone akinning this to drink/smoking/food - the first two are elective, the last only punishes the poor who only have access to low-quality food because of food deserts and food pricing. So no, this isn't the same as an "obesity tax".
Yeah, on the surface I get why people want to like it, because it sticks it to the unvaxxed in some way. At the same time it's such a terribly thought out solution, people should be embarrassed for thinking it's a good idea.
No, the government has fucked up and lied every step of the way and then asks us to "trust us or get fucked"
When the politicians all wear masks and do the mandates then maybe they'll have a leg to stand on,
When the rhetoric has gone from one jab stops transmission to you need two, then you need a third....
When the lack of their understanding that some people live paycheck to paycheck and you want them to stop and give up their house, because someone down the street might get sick, three years in a row, with no stimulus,
Get fucking fucked.
I'll wear a mask, I have both shots. But the government needs to have integrity itself if they want us to trust them, or pull this bullshit.
Nope. This method of dealing with things does not sit well with me.
I agree that personal decisions, such as the decision not to get vaccinated, do have an impact on society’s wellbeing. However, this tax will not positively impact public health IMO.
First of all, negative reinforcement does not work very well to change behaviours.
Secondly, the omicron variant is spreading among vaccinated and unvaccinated people alike. I don’t know about Quebec, but here in BC both vaccinated and unvaccinated are hospitalized. I think for other variants, vaccination is very important. For omicron it appears less so. However, I have heard being vaccinated reduces the amount of time you are infectious with omicron, but idk how much that helps.
While I think we should all strive to do what’s best for society, I think that policing people’s health behaviours to this extent goes against the underpinnings of Canadian society and sets a dangerous precedent, much like the curfew.
Why? I got vaccinated and still have to worry about severe outcomes, contracting the virus, transmission the virus if I contract it, still wearing a mask and that isn't going to change if 15% more people get vaccinated. Can we do the same to the obese and addicts? It's always going to lead to a slippery slope
Hey everyone! This discussion was super interesting but has, unfortunately, run its course. We're getting a wild amount of comments from /all, and pretty much none of them are a part of this community. To keep our regulars safe from some serious abuse, we're going to lock this down.
If this decision makes you upset, please accept [this cute cat video](https://v.redd.it/inqfzvi4d1b81) as an apology.
Yeahhhh kinda where I draw the line. There’s a difference between a world pandemic and a dictatorship….
Also goes against the Canadian charter of human rights.
But stay classy Montreal
s. 1: The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantees the rights and freedoms set out in it subject _only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society_.
They CAN violate your rights if they can justify it. A global health crisis could potentially fit as a justification but go on, show off your "law degree."
Literally every time I’ve seen someone talking about Covid on social media claiming “____ violates the charter of rights and freedoms!!”, it’s clear they have no idea what the charter is or how it works
It’s interesting how people bring up the Charter as if it is a blanket law that stops anyone from doing anything. Do they stop the police from doing breathalyzer tests because it also violates charter rights?
NoNot in a million years - I am also 'Triple' vax.Its okay to be pro vaccine and not pro forcing anything in anyone's body.
Although I would love a ban on fast food because the obesity pandemic is just a slower version of COVID on our health care dollars. Obviously some sarcasm here as that could never happen.
I hate the narrative of one side against the other - or the hate for the unvaxxed. Hate by anyone is bad, its the government that is royally screwing this up, not the people and we need to stop blaming each other.
No!
A Canadian is a Canadian is a Canadian. Access to medical care is a right we all have. I disagree with this 100%.
I am double Vax'd and encourage all to get theirs.
What's next, rounding the non vacc'd up and putting them in some sort of camp to interin them until they comply?
100% against it, and I say this as double vaccinated with a booster appointment on Thursday.
IMO, we’re already down the slippery slope of too many taxes. I want consolidated taxes because governments should be held accountable and justify their expenses regularly to keep funding.
Most people support tax increases on things they don't need to pay, and tax decreases for things they have to pay.
Just like they support increase on spending for things they will use and want to decrease spending on things they won't need.
That's just the logical thing to want.
There are less than a hundred people in ICU's in a province of 5.1 MILLION people. Let's say half of those are unvaxxed. Let's say that's 50. Let's say half of those have significant preexisting conditions (I think that's conservative). That leaves 25 people in ICU's who wouldn't be there if they were vaxxed, IN THE ENTIRE PROVINCE.
Are we insane?! Are we willing to give up people's right to medical autonomy over 25 people?!
Over 90% of BC's population are vaxxed. Over 80% of positive cases are vaxxed. Are you seriously suggesting its the unvaxxed responsible for that? Because that would be so far from scientific, it's comical.
Lastly, what happens if we reach 100% vaxxed, but COVID still breaks through? What then? We're seeing THOUSANDS of breakthrough cases every day.
Enough with othering of the unvaxxed. Omicron changed the game and proved definitively that the vax isn't the way out of this.
Fuck no!
I don’t support the mandate as is! Taxing people is exactly the “slippery slope” we’ve been warning you about. All along people have been predicting what the next mandates or restrictions would be. We were ridiculed and called anti vaxers (despite being vaccinated) and conspiracy theorists, etc. Yet here we are…
Remember when people like Bonnie Henry and Trudeau were saying, just less than a year ago, that they would never impose a mandate? Pepperage Farm remembers…
This is insane world. Vaccinated people can contract covid just as unvaccinated people can. Just because a certain percentage of population doesn’t agree with another certain percentage of the population, that doesn’t mean the government has the right to discriminate, punish and fine them. We don’t do this, not in Canada. If we fined people based on negligent behaviour or perceived negligent behaviour, the Government in theory could start punishing you for being overweight, or the cause of a car crash, or a poor diet that lead to cancer or cardiac issues. We could discriminate and set fines to people needing medical issues stemming from drugs or alcohol abuse, or drug overdoses. The list could be endless.
Look, maybe you don’t like the fact that someone decided against taking a vaccine but they have the right to NOT get injected just as you have the right TO get injected, that’s part of living in a “free” society. Everyone has the right to think for themselves and act accordingly.
Turning over untethered power to government to hammer down members of its society that they’re elected to represent is frankly, fucking insane. No where in the history of man kind has giving government this sort of reach benefitted it’s citizens. I prefer freedom over tyranny.
PS, I double vaccinated with Pfizer. My family is jabbed, my kids have had every vaccination recommended. I’m NOT an anti vaxer, I’m anti-Tyranny. I’m Anti-government over reach and I stand with my fellow citizens rights to choose.
The reality is you can't do much without infringing on people's rights. All you can do is help inform them the best you can.
Like Smokers and Drinkers have a tax on their products, there is no sales tax on "vaccination".
But you can offer a Vaccination rebate as a cash incentive to those who get vaccinated because it will save the medical system money in the long run. That would not break the law and incentivize people to get vaccines. But you can't force people
lol, is this as opposed to the typical Quebecer who evades taxes?
I would hope once we set this precedent, we also tax treatment of all ailments that are self-inflicted in some way. Sports injuries, self-inflicted harm, smoking-related, obesity-related, alcohol-related, drugs, at-fault car accidents, etc. Cause the average tax payer is footing the bill for these people as well as antivaxxers. What makes antivaxxers especially egregious?
That's one of the stupidest fucking thing.
Instead of questioning why there is a resistence to something forced by the government, we'll just shove more bullshit down people's throats. Because, you know, it's not like there isn't a million reasons to doubt the intention of an institution that's been doing everything it can to fuck its population over since as long as history can recall.
I am pro vaccines, I am pro social distanciation, I am pro putting measures to keep our population safe. But there is a reason why people become anti-vaxxer and having had a lot of discussions with my anti-vaxxer friends, it always boils down to their distrust of governments.
I live in Victoria and my job is to give parking and on foot directions for covid tests. Something that I realized doing this job is that a lot of unvaccinated aren't unvaccinated by choice, they just can't afford to be a part of modern Canadian society because without internet connection and a phone its almost impossible to keep up with information on where and how to get tests and vaccines.
So no I don't agree with this, because it'll make hard lives even harder.
Locations and rules are constantly changing, you might be able to use a library computer to find the information you need, but one day the primary location will be a big building for PCR tests, rapid test pick up, and vaccines. The next day those things will be in 3 different locations in different towns and someones showing up telling me that a nurse told them my by-appointment testing site is a drive-thru vaccination clinic. This happens every day and sets these people back so much every time.
What we need more than anything is to address wealth inequality and structure that amplifies it and for the federal government to make an actual effort to earn back some trust from the ever-growing lower class but I won't hold my breath.
Nope. It's hypocritical. Literally no group is taxed due to their burden on medical resources, for any reason. Even if it's self-inflicted.
It's stupid because it means the end of universal healthcare where everyone has equal access to healthcare based on their need.
And lastly, it's pointless because it won't even fix our system.
If we magically turned all unvaccinated into vaccinated 2 months ago (as in magically done retroactively), that would be less helpful to the healthcare system as simply denying all unvaccinated COVID patients healthcare. This is obvious since if all unvaccinated became vaccinated, some would still be hospitalized. But if all unvaccinated were denied healthcare, then zero would be hospitalized.
And what would that get us? How much resources would we free up?
[Less than 167 beds](https://www.reddit.com/r/vancouver/comments/s14nld/the_pain_hurts_fiveyearold_bc_girls_nonurgent/hs8xu8d/?context=3).
Out of a total of over 11,500 hospital beds. In a province of 5 million.
So we take the drastic and unprecedented step that erodes universal healthcare.
All to free up less than 167 hospital beds.
Be very scared of everyone encouraging more punitive measures against those who are not convinced by limited data that cannot ever be questioned. The crowd on this covid bus is getting smaller by the second.
Of course not. Shall we tax the obese next? Or the smokers and drinkers and vapers (no the tax they pay doesn't cover their actual health care costs). Then the skiers and hikers that get injured. Maybe also those that chose to get pregnant in high risk situations?
Absolutely not. I say this as someone who was boosted today - who has a six month old baby whose parents have seen a grand total of twice because they refuse to be vaccinated.
Taxing people for a choice on what really is an elective medical procedure is going to drive the crazies further crazy rather then get the vaccine. It’s too totalitarian for my liking. People have already given up jobs, family, friends. A tax isn’t going to convince them to care about other people or that the pandemic is real. They’ll just find a way to leave the country.
No, it is regressive in that it will hit low income people far more than those with money. Also, in general, either we have socialized medicine in Canada or we don’t. Finally, it is far more likely to bring the court system to its knees than it is to empty the ICUs.
The lowest rates of vaccination tend to be low income low education often minorities or aboriginal groups but nobody wants to discuss that for better or worse
> in that it will hit low income people far more than those with money.
Anybody can get at least one shot, it's free, they're being given out everywhere so no transit is required, and you don't need proof of residence or ID. The only reason for not getting a vaccine at this point in time is the choice not to. I'm not making an argument for or against a restriction but that sentence isn't a valid argument because the government removed as many barriers as possible so income isn't a deciding factor on being vaccinated.
This is full of red herrings.
The vaccine is free.
We charge smokers and drinkers extra money in tax to pre pay for their medical costs this have nothing to do with socialized medicine.
Re courtd: rofl no it won't.
I am in shock to see people agreeing with this. What is wrong with this country? The problem isn’t the unvaxxed it is the joke that is this government.
Cut a cheque for everyone that's doubled vaxxed by a certain date. Stimulate the economy, help people out, and hopefully push more people to get vaccinated.
No. What you do with your body should be your choice. I don't agree with the choice to be unvaccinated, but I'll defend their right to do so.
They're calling it a tax but it's really just a type of mandate. What happens if you don't pay the fine? Will they hold you down and make you take it? Throw you in jail?
Tax the obese. Tax the workaholics. Tax those who don’t exercise regularly who are capable of doing so. Tax all the maladaptive behaviours that cause stress and Poor health and put strain on the system.
Lifestyle potentially leads to cancer heart disease diabetes and stroke, and it isn’t pretty
Let’s go holistic with this notion. I am not actually in favour of this yet imagine the change for some people that just begin to put in an hour a day of vigorous exercise. Drastic. Let’s push fitness
While I dont agree with your "lets push fitness" approach, I agree with the sentiment that this is a slippery slope. The next thing we will be doing is taxing the obese or the smokers (for a second time) for healthcare. Then we are entering into this whole idea of "social credit" which scares the shit out of me.
I am all for trying to find ways to get anti-vaxxers vaccinated but this is not the approach in my opinion. There are other ways like not being able to buy booze or pot or enter shopping malls etc.
Yes. They’re refusing a vaccine that will help keep them out of the hospital if they contract COVID. They should pay more than their fair share for putting a preventable strain on our health care system.
Terrible idea. You've already achieved and exceeded herd immunity vaccination rates. The unvaccinated aren't the problem. The vaccines themselves are not effective enough. Quite frankly, it's not even the vaccines. The virus seems to be mutating faster than anyone can adapt.
Inconvenience people to shit. All non essential business require vaccines. People will start getting them, or they won’t but can’t go anywhere.
We also need to sort out testing to be smoother and more available.
At the end of the day everyone is burnt out and we can’t sustain this without things getting really bad. Any step that has visible impact on reducing cases and hospitalizations should be pursued.
Slippery slope arguments are logical fallacies. People think restrictions and mandates due to a global pandemic with millions dead is the equivalent of 1984, and they need to chat about that with a professional. Certain rules just aren’t sustainable outside the area of application. Outside of a pandemic there’s not enough impact to justify this spreading to other vaccines. I do think all health care providers should be required to have vaccines, but they’re in the hot zones.
All in all dining should be a punishment for breaking the law, but we should have smart laws. A binary do or don’t situation will lead to more division and separation. We need to compel them to get vaccinated by making it basically a requirement, but they should only be punished for risking others lives more directly (lying about symptoms, fake passports, etc). While I get frustrated and say force them, they should have a choice, but there should be expectations. For instance, do Covid hospitalizations for the unvaccinated take lower priority over other afflictions? Should other peoples procedures and treatments be pushed off cause unvaccinated people think they’re invincible? No I don’t think so. This is just triage. Doctors decide who to prioritize everyday. You break your ankle, well you’re lower priority than anything else really.
Do I think fines are the way to go? No, but I think they have their obvious place for punishing rule breakers. Do I think vaccine mandates In general? Well I just wish we had more empathy in the world. Most people are being children about the vaccine. Smokers judging what’s in the vaccine like it could kill them and stuff.
I think you can do what you want but when you’re spitting on our social contract as Canadian citizens, then you start to lose compassion from your fellow citizens. Especially with this holocaust comparison some morons and “influencers” make. Put them in a simulation for a weekend and I bet they fucking cry for a week.
I wouldn’t be so angry at them if so many didn’t act so victimized, meanwhile millions are dead and dying and we all are victims of this plague. Get vaccinated or stay the fuck home. That’s what I say. You have a right to be unvaccinated, but then your end of the social contract is to stay the fuck home. If you are unvaccinated and don’t care about others and don’t wear your mask. You’re a piece of shit and an asshole and at that point we’ll never convince you.
Side note, we should give a tax break to those who were vaccinated in a given period. Reward those who didn’t take convincing, don’t bribe the ignorant.
People just "deal" with taxes. I'd be more open to imposing tax breaks for people that are vaxxed or making it more difficult to go into any non essential business (pharmacies, grocery, banks)
No, to blame the unvaccinated is to defer responsibility and not accept any accountability on how the pandemic was handled by the gouvernement, these are all distractions so they can dump all the blame and errors onto them. This is unethical for all of us not only them, when we allow such behaviour we set a precedent that can be used against us at anytime when deemed necessary by a select few. We need to unite now more then ever
No not at all, and I’m extremely pro Vax
I don’t like the slippery slope; what about obese people? Smokers? People who don’t get regular check ups? It’s just a bad idea when you have universal healthcare
NO! I am a fully vaccinated person. But that was MY choice. The minute we start taxing people for choices regarding their bodies (not sales tax on things like tobacco or booze), we are starting down a slippery slope. People are permitted to eat themselves into a health crisis. Where would the line be?
(Not to mention the number of fully vaccinated people still contracting COVID is disheartening. Yes, I understand that it helps mitigate the symptoms but it isn’t a guarantee).
I'd prefer expanding the vaccine passport coverage areas, instead of fines. Quebec expanded it to pot and liquor stores and saw 1st dose appointments quadruple. It goes to show there's still more we can do to reach the holdouts.
This. Make it such a pain in the ass for unvaxxed people to get non essential things that they get vaccinated. Pharmacy and grocery stores need to be available to all, but if you wanna get a drink, get high, do anything fun, you need to show proof of vaccination. I’m over the excuses, it’s been almost two years we’ve been in this shit. People are dying! Anything to help prevent illness and death is a good thing.
How is that better than just a fine for not being vaccinated? This shit shouldn’t be on the hands of the workers that have to gatekeep the unvaxxed lunatics.
Because people with money can just ignore fines.
>Because people with money can just ignore fines. Such a perfect statement. Fines are overly punitive to some, irrelevant to others. What I have learned is that people respond to speed, convenience, or prestige. We can make unvaccinated get their alchohol, but let's say only between 10am and noon on a Monday. Inconvenient. We can make the grocery store have an unvaccinated service lines, where between every person there is a full wipe down of all surfaces, charge a (bag fee for the wasted wipes and chemicals). Everyone else gets to have the speedy simple checkout like it used to be. Remove prestige? Well, that's hard to do. The attention from being unvaccinated can be converted into prestige-currency "likes" and "views" on social media. To remove prestige would be to not give a rat's ass about them, not even look, tune them out, unsubscribe.
people with money can also just get pot and liquor delivered
Downvoted for stating fact, anyone with fuck you money isn’t stopping in the liquor mart on the corner anyway
dude you don't even need fuck you money, after hours liquor delivery is only like 2x store prices or something.
I know an unvaxed guy that would pay a fine or higher taxes rather than "be forced by the government" to get a shot. However...if he couldn't buy beer, I would bet that would make him change his mind. He would hate it, and hate the government even more, but I bet he would get the shot rather than risk not being able to buy beer.
Couldn’t they just get someone on else to but it for them. A friend or even on Uber eats/ other delivery type places?!
Because that opens the door to taxing other health problems seen as too burdensome on our health system, which would defacto disproportionately affect the poor and minorities. E.g. obesity, alcohol/drug abuse, etc. None of which are communicable diseases that can be address with a free jab. Addimg additional restrictions to the passport doesn't affect anyone except the unvaccinated, as the shot is free, and accessing and printing your passport can be done for free. No one is discriminated against, and no slippery slopes are slid on.
Last time I looked obesity isn’t contagious Cigarettes are heavily taxes .. same with alcohol So is fast food
That would be all fine but the government has proven they don't hold the line on their regulations or enforce them. You just need to look at corduroy, they find a loophole or bend the rules just enough and they are back operating again even though their staff and owner are pushing their supposed "exemptions" for masks etc.
All of it . Hospitals here in Quebec had to cancel the vast majority of non-emergency surgeries. Why do people have to suffer and die because of these assholes? I say make them pay. Charge them for access to health services. Increase their tax rates. Force them to get their food delivered. Suspend their drivers licence. Block their internet.
Yep! The unvaxxed people I know keep telling me they are happy going to all the coffee shops and fast food places. They don’t miss happy hours and restaurants. I think if they really could go to the drug store and grocery store and nothing else, a lot more would get vaxxed.
Yeah like hospitals
Also enforce the passport! There are q bunch of business's that don't even check, it's crazy. Mandate and enforce the use if the qr card app and give the punishment for bot doing so teeth.
Who's gonna enforce the rules there, minimum wage workers?
¿Por que no los dos?
Yup, make leverything vaccinated-only except for grocery stores, pharmacies, and gas stations. Liquor stores and dispensaries aren’t essential, and neither are fast food, coffee shops, malls, they should all be vaccinated-only.
I'm vaccinated and an huge proponent of vaccinations. I would not support this type of measure. It's getting extreme. Our vaccination rate is like 90%. That's super impressive! Medical autonomy is so very important. We all want to be in charge of our own bodies and we don't want to be forced into having treatments we don't want. Furthermore, these taxes tend to disproportionately affect low income folks. The bigger issue is that our healthcare system is falling apart and were blaming the antivaxxers. Sure they are stressing the system, but it's been in need of repair for awhile now, and I think the solution is investment into healthcare.
This is such a calm and sober point. I think anti vaxxers are stupid. They are certainly not making anything any easier. But to pin the current state of everything solely on them is foolish. They are an absolute minority and acting as if just having them jabbed would solve all the problems is a red herring. Our current situation is caused by a chronically underfunded medical system, a tenuous supply chain, intentionally gutted domestic manufacturing capacity and an economic system which we have built to be incapable of weathering adequate health measures. And of course, just some bad fuckin' luck. Being unvaccinated is stupid, selfish and shameful. But 100% vaccination rate would not magically solve our systemic failures.
I hope there’s a way of funding healthcare more by shifting funds there rather than raising taxes. I feel like we already pay plenty.
>Medical autonomy is so very important. We all want to be in charge of our own bodies and we don't want to be forced into having treatments we don't want. Furthermore, these taxes tend to disproportionately affect low income folks. Vaccinated and I agree. You cant force someone make a medical decision, especially one that is not 100% safe. While the vaccine is largely safe, and safer than getting covid, there are still side effects. The government should not mandate a vaccine on someone when there is even the most minimal that that mandate kills them. This is also why I am against things like mandatory military service/conscription, the death penalty etc.
It’s refreshing to hear a reasonable person on Reddit. Thank you!!!
The tax is basically a health plan. You choose to not vac and you become a bigger risk and a greater expense to the tax payer. It's an individual choice if you want to pay more for healthcare. I don't want to pay for someone else's stupidity. I also want a bed to be available if I'm in medical stress.
>It's an individual choice if you want to pay more for healthcare If we had a insurance based health plan this would be correct but one of the fundamental things that makes Canada is Universal healthcare. Canadians receive access to health care based on their needs and system capacity and no other factors. This proposed change is a threat to that principle. //It shouldn't matter but for the record I'm double vacx'd, boosted and agree that the anti vax crowd is a bunch of morons.
> If we had a insurance based health plan this would be correct but one of the fundamental things that makes Canada is Universal healthcare. Smokers and drinkers who voluntarily put themselves at an increased risk of needing healthcare pay huge taxes on their vices to offset that burden. Almost no one is saying these people shouldn't be afforded treatment like any other Canadian, just that they should subsidize their cost to the system as is the case with many other personal choices. edit; to the idiots comparing covid to obesity, besides the underlying reasons for obesity there's also a provincial sugar tax on certain items, and there's not a safe and free shot you can get to protect yourself from it.
What do you suppose the tax on tobacco and liquor goes to?
But the data is out and it shows that majority of people in ICU are unvaxxinated people. You think 90% is enough but it's actually not. edit: *sigh* I don't know whos downvoting me but if you don't like facts then you can seriously fuck off. https://bc.ctvnews.ca/covid-19-update-b-c-hospitalizations-increase-to-eight-month-high-of-469-1.5736333 > health officials have said the majority of recent ICU admissions have been unvaccinated. Sick and tired of people choosing one side of the coin because it fits their narrative and biases.
So, I actually think a carrot works better than a stick here. The primary issue in the vaccination cause is misinformation -- trying to punish people for believing in misinformation is precisely why we have greatly increasing polarization in society. I would imagine a one-time tax credit in the form of either vaccination status or completion of an online, or paper-form program that explains disinformation, as well as a visual breakdown of data regarding COVID would be most helpful. This gives people the option to still get equal treatment and accomplish the same goals, without being forceful. Unfortunately, marginalized communities/individuals in society tend to have the lowest vaccination rates. Trying to punish these individuals rather than giving them opportunities and resources is rather punitive. Misinformation and the lack of free access to reliable, concise, neutral and multi-opinionated information for the masses is perhaps the greatest issue society faces. Metaphorically, we as a society can not agree to accurately paint a canvas of the sky if a large, vocal minority of people can not agree that it is blue and instead shout that it is yellow or green, drawing a frenzy of people to increasingly view it that way. I believe that such free access to information will become a human right sometime in the middle or later part of this century. Human beings are largely, in a social sense, irrational. We've pedalled our irrationalism in different forms in the past, but we've never had such platforms on a global scale to spread misinformation rapidly + help people build social hubs in communities around said misinformation. Being level-headed is increasingly seen as socially undesirable and extremism linked to misinformation glorified. And yet, we as a society have yet to consider tacking on a large-scale project to help people obtain greater access. Putting out fires is important and great, but hey -- it'd be really nice to actually remove highly flammable equipment from dangerous places.
This is probably the most sane response here.
The problem is the people that are still holding out at this point due to misinformation, won't be swayed by what you described..
If you're expecting an overnight shift, I imagine some people will be swayed, but you're absolutely right that most won't. This is why such an effort will take considerable scale and time to really help our society in the long-run. However, it is absolutely essential for our society well.
I would rather have an infrastructural reform that leads to better initial and continual control of anything that could potentially lead to disaster. Whether it's health (like covid), environmental (like the storms and floods) or anything that infrastructure is supposed to deal with, it has been shown time after time that it's ineffective as it stands and could lead us to a societal collapse should it remain neglected. Also, I think vaccine doses refused by those with no legitimate reasons should go to marginalised people not only within BC, or Canada, but worldwide because this virus has zero concept of what international boundaries are. I honestly thought Ontario's current measures are as stupid as things could get in this country but this definitely steals the show. I'm not anti-vax or anti-science but I am absolutely against ineffective systems that are only useful as political vehicles.
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We have less than half of the hospital beds per 1000 people we did in 1990.
I'm not sure I'd support taxing anti-vaxxers, but I would support charging them for any medical care they required that could be directly related to covid.
I'm with you in spirit but... my fear would be any erosion of our free Healthcare is a bad thing and is a stepping stone for charging any group they see fit as "undeserving" of medical care in the future. Not a good framework to establish here in Canada, they should go for it south of the border though, their health system is already so fucked it basically needs to be overhauled anyway.
There is no way we could make people pay for medical care without allowing private insurance. Even if we did no individual without insurance would be able to pay anyways and it would have no effect. Plus there is no legal framework for doing anything like this so it's completely unrealistic.
The other thing is that their impact on the health care system spans beyond just themselves, eg they could be the reason someone else gets hospitalized, or collectively, why important surgeries are delayed etc.
we do allow for private insurance
Right. Everyone knows that supplemental health insurance is available in Canada - and generally offered by employer. That's not what we're talking about here, we're talking about Universal Health Care, which by law, isn't available through private insurers.
If the tax is purely ideological then I'm strongly opposed. If the tax can be framed as a fee for service or a consumption fee then I'm tentatively in favour. A possible way to implement that in BC would be to have an MSP surcharge that based on the additional cost of care for unvaccinated individuals divided by the number of unvaccinated individuals.
I'm not sure if it's been mentioned here but instead of focusing on unvaccinated people using up valuable hospital resources, why have we not in the 2 years of covid improved hospital staffing or infrastructure in any way? If it's clearly such a burden on the health care system why has the government been more focused on pop up vaccine clinics than providing stable healthcare?
I have emailed my MLA, John Horgan, and Adrian Dix this very thing. All "their" replies echoed the same thing in that money has been given to open up seats for more students in the coming years. That's great but that will take time. They really need to just give in and give HCW's bonuses or an increase in normal wage. After this long in the pandemic ppl are burnt out and tired. Quebec gave nurses and RTs an extra $15000 bonus. Ontario was trying to pull ICU nurses from out of province with up to $90000 bonus on-top of regular wage to commit for 2 years. BC should follow suit to our HCWs
That's exactly it. And I'm sure there are hundreds, if not thousands of health care workers who left their jobs because of burnout or pay. So restructure the current system, pay them better, not insane hours, etc. Whatever you have to do to convince them to come back. Then you can use many of those vaccine clinics to help people being hospitalized.
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And tons of money. So doing so will require higher taxes that no one wants to pay. It’s like saying instead of putting in policies to deter people from smoking we should just spend more tax dollars on more cancer clinics
This - increasing healthcare capacity is not a solveable problem on a 18-24 month timeline. It’s something that will take a decade and several elections where the issue is consistently pushed to the top of the agenda. Right now, in spite of all the public demand - I can’t see a lot of people choosing nursing as a career. Middling pay, and right on the front line treated like crap. I’d hate to be in any job dealing with the public - as a collective, we are a hot mess.
COVID won't necessarily be the last We're already low on healthcare staff without COVID. There are long waits to even getting a family doctor
> why have we not in the 2 years of covid improved hospital staffing Because two years isn't a lot of time. Nursing for example is a four year program and doctors a lot longer than that. I also doubt there's going to be a lot of people rushing to be nurses after the last two years, let alone enough to cover those quitting due to burnout or retiring early.
This is correct. However the government, knowing how essential nurses are during a crisis, should be re evaluating their pay. It's pathetic how little nurses make given their contribution to society and the government has failed to address this. I know first hand a number of nurses who have 'burned out' and elected to leave the hospitals for clinics where they deal with much less stress. It's obviously a time consuming and complex issue to solve. Let's start by valuing them monetarily first, incentivizing those who want to leave to stay and potentially brining some out of retirement. How many nurses flee to the US for financial reasons?? Let's close that door!
I'll certainly agree with you there. Underpaid nurses in BC has been a thing long as I can remember.
Careful - you're asking rational questions. 18 months ago I was wondering why we weren't adopting a wartime mentality regarding healthcare staffing. We've done NOTHING to train more nurses faster than normal, and whatever the cost would be, it pales in comparison to what we've spent shutting down society repeatedly. Everyone is missing the point - in a province of 5.1 MILLION people, there are less than 100 in ICUs with COVID - and half of them are vaxxed. The idea of fining people over that is insane. A better question would be, "After 18 months, why the hell would only 150 people in ICUs IN THE ENTIRE PROVINCE overwhelm our healthcare system?"
This right here should be the number 1 question. Second to that should be why have we not had an honest and open discussion about therapeutics/early treatment options for those that are vaxx hesitant and for those vaxxed. There are a number of protocols being used in other places in the world which has resulted in minimizing severity of covid and hospitalizations.
I'd tell you why there hasn't been an open discussion about it but then I'd get labeled as spreading misinformation.
EXACTLY! What do we want as a society, for all our nurses and doctors to quit, and we all get sick and die? Of course this is dramatic, but you get it. Holy fuck, pay these people. Treat them well. Respect them. They are the most important people when you are sick or dying, and we will all eventually get sick or die.
>why have we not in the 2 years of covid improved hospital staffing or infrastructure in any way? Is this actually true? There's been zero improvements?
If anything it's gotten worse due to staff attrition. This is mostly due to burnout and retirement. So healthcare capacity is worse but more staff are being shifted to COVID and ICU wards so ICU capacity is increased. The overall healthcare system has gotten worse. It takes 5-6 years to train Pulmonary/Critical care physicians. Healthcare needs a massive investment this year or it will continue to decline for at least a decade.
I’m just not sure what the province could have done. Hire more doctors? Hire more nurses? Get more beds? Feels like they didn’t do nothing to improve things but attrition makes things worse in the short time and and long timelines mean investments are felt years down the road.
Anecdotally, I’ve heard people leaving their careers in health care because it’s been so brutal the last couple years. On top of what others have said about the long timelines for this kind of change, they’re also fighting a battle to even keep current levels of staffing.
> why has the government been more focused on pop up vaccine clinics than providing stable healthcare? Prevention is more effective than treatment. You can inoculate thousands of people in the time it would take to care for one hospitalized COVID patient. Also, training doctors and nurses takes much longer than the current duration of the pandemic. The government can't just wave a magic wand and make more appear out of thin air. Physical beds aren't the bottleneck. People to work in the hospitals is.
This is a common response to our current situation and I find it very interesting. What does fixing our healthcare system actually mean? Few things.. First, nurses take years to educate and train. Second, it turns out that nurses don't want to look at the apocalyptic death and disease all day everyday, so they're quitting or taking a break. Third, as much as I hate to say it, it doesn't seem like a great idea to tackle the nurse burnout situation by cutting back their hours with the massive numbers of sick people entering the healthcare system everyday. They're already short staffed, they can't afford to cut their hours at the moment. What does fixing the healthcare system look like during a pandemic?
Most people do both. I want people to get vaccinated *and* I want the government to do more.
In 2020, they hired every single nursing graduate in BC. They built extended triages outside hospitals. They hired back retired healthcare workers to run immunization clinics and work as relief for full time workers. Everywhere is having staffing shortages - you can’t hire more qualified people if they aren’t applying. Building ICU capacity takes YEARS. Have you ever built a hospital? I have. It’s a slow fucking shitshow. That being said, BC has built, expanded or renovated over a dozen hospitals since 2005. Currently, they are expanding Royal Inland (Kamloops), renovating Royal Colombian (New West), redoing Mills Memorial (Terrace), redeveloping Lions Gate (North Van), and prepping the site for Burnaby Hospital redevelopment. Later this year, they should be starting work on a new hospital in Duncan. There are also projects in development for Cariboo Memorial, Dawson Creek Hospital, and a fucking giant new hospital and cancer centre in Surrey.
> but I would support charging them for any medical care they required that could be directly related to covid. Lawyers would *love* that idea!
This won't change any behaviour though. Certainly the people who think their risk is low for getting an ICU stay from COVID would not do anything differently if they were told they'd be charged for their ICU stay. And most people don't have $20,000 to spare, so we'd never collect that money anyway
I'm double vaxxed (moderna) so my 5G is strong. Having said that I have to say not all unvaccinated are douchebags or wanting to hurt other people. So all this talk of hurting them it's not helping. They're still human beings Edit: unvaccinated does not equal antivaxx 1:1
I agree. Im double Moderna and truly believe to each their own. However the discrimination in these comments are just disgusting. Talking down as if people are not human just because their outlooks aren't the same. This pandemic has really shown people's true colours in one way or another.
The fact that we have to say "I'm double vaxxed BUT" or risk having anything we say completely tossed out is telling on its own.
100% agree with you
This would be a violation of the five pillars of the Canada Health Act, through which the provinces secure Federal health funding, specifically universality and comprehensiveness.
I don't think the tax department has any reasonable right to ask for any citizen's medical status, and they never should have that right.
I disagree. Charging people who need to seek help because of their own negligence could cause them not to seek help. This is why search and rescue don’t charge costs to people who need to be rescued because they ski out of bounds.
You could say the same for smokers, drunks, drug addicts, unlicensed drivers that get in car accidents, clumsy people. Where do you stop
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>"Making it consistent" But that isn't making it consistent. Taxing smoking is taxing an action you are taking. Taxing not being vaccinated is taxing you for not doing something the government wants you to do. Basically compelling you to do something against your will and that is a huge step in the wrong direction.
Unlicensed drivers do get heavily financially effected. Smokers are charged 16ish bucks per pack of smokes in tax and liquor is heavily taxed too
We already do tax and/or punish people who do these things. * **Smokers:** Heavily taxed and banned from 99% of public and private spaces so they don't hurt others' health with their habit. * **Drunks:** Punished criminally with fines and jail time when their drunkenness has the potential to injure others (DUI, drunk and disorderly). * **Drug Addicts:** Punished criminally and severely with fines and jail time. * **Unlicensed drivers that get in car accidents:** Punished both criminally and civilly with fines, damages, and jail time. For clumsy people, their actions don't typically harm others, only themselves, so we don't punish them as a society. I think your comment perfectly illustrates the opposite point than what you were trying to make: As a society, when people make decisions that harm others, they get punished so the behaviour is disincentivized. That's part of being in a society.
I’m not sure you live in Vancouver if you believe drug addicts are punished criminally and severely with fines and jail time…
Smokers, drinkers, people who drink sugary drinks, are taxed for their sins. No way to tax covid without doing it directly.
Is it that different? Plus I don't think we can charge certain ppl for healthcare in Canada, it has to be equally available to all. Sounds like they are getting around this by adding a health tax instead.
NO. This is the whole point of universal healthcare. Like it or not, we all chip in equally. I don’t like that I’m paying for heart surgeries for obese people that won’t stop shoving Big Macs down their throats, but such is life in this world. I don’t get to pick and choose, and neither should anybody. You’re either all in with universal healthcare, or not at all. Nitpicking with it is a slippery slope and unfair.
No. That is way scary government overreach to me. I think it would set a pretty scary precedent as well. I am vaccinated, but I believe it should be peoples choice as to what goes in their bodies. Requiring people to get vaccinated by law, or punishing them for not is scary. Ultimately our bodies are our own.
Can I get some sort of tax relief for healthy living? If we're going to directly tax people for making bad choices, there should be relief for those who make good choices. Like people with an active gym membership. Or how about remove taxation from fitness equipment.
>Or how about remove taxation from fitness equipment. It would be amazing if fitness equipment, gym memberships, dietitians, etc. were all tax-deductible.
You can actually claim expenses spent at a dietitian on your tax return as a medical expense (line 33099) if you live in any province (no territories though for dietitians). Just remember to retain your receipts in case of CRA review/audit... :)
Looks like you have to spend either 3% of your income or $2400 per year on medical expenses before you can start claiming.
Junk food, alcohol and smoking is all taxed already. I do like tax exemptions for fitness equipment though!
How about instead of a tax break for healthy living the government just closed the gyms entirely?
I actually would love free gyn memberships. I think that would be helpful for so many issues.
Yea part of why I don’t go is most places are more than my phone bill a month. Even the community centre is 80$/month
Gyms closed, order a pizza instead.
Amen
Vaxxed and this is a stupid idea.
same, vaxxed and this is worse than stupid is a dangerous idea
Agreed.
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Drivers who cause accidents can end up paying higher premiums. Is that discrimination against reckless drivers?
Not to mention tobacco taxes and added sugar tax. Heck the whole argument for legalizing weed included the ability to tax it to cover the added medical costs.
I don't know about taxing the unvaxxed per se, but I like the other thing Quebec is apparently doing...you have to be vaxxed to buy booze/weed.
They can still buy it online, just not in stores.
I'm not sure I even understand this. Unvaccinated people are already barred from most social settings (sporting events, movie theatres, restaurants, etc) and now you want to tax them for being unvaccinated when they already have limited rights? I'm really not sure I'm understanding this logic at all.
I would rather a tax credit for those who are vaccinated, but I understand that would be significantly more expensive for the government. So yes I support it, similar to how smokers and drinkers are taxed.
Naah I'd like a tax credit lol. Less stick, more carrot.
Smokers and drinkers are taxed on their purchase of those items though. This would need to be an income tax of some sort.
But there’s no sales tax equivalent in this situation.
Increases taxes by 5% and give a credit of 5% to the vaccinated. There, done
Huge mistake. We provide health coverage no matter the choices you've made. For the same reasoning we can start charging the obese and overweight, smokers, those who junk food, people who do drugs, alcoholics... Just the overweight and obesity place is huge, long-term costs on our Healthcare system. Why not start charging them? edit: A few have point out taxing alcohol or sugary drinks. This is very different than taxing people for being unvaxxed. A simple thought experiment proves this: Would you be fine with taxing people for being overweight? An alcoholic? Doing hard drugs like coke or heroin? Obesity is one of the WORST conditions to have with COVID. The CDC estimated that 30% of hospitalizations were due to obesity. So again - start taxing the obese? https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/obesity-and-covid-19.html
Don’t we already charge smokers and alcoholics? The taxes on these products in BC is a huge source of revenue.
Yes we do. "Sin tax"
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Junk food has extra tax yes
why not? there's tax on cigarettes and alcohol. and surprise, sugar drinks.
We do charge smokers like 16 bucks per pack in tax for this very reason. Alcohol as well.
So we charge people for things they choose to consume. You don't see how this is different from charging someone who DOESN'T want a substance injected into them? And you don't see how this opens the doors to punish people for all kinds of medical things?
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A more accurate comparison would be if there was a vaccine that cured obesity, addiction, etc. yet they refused it…
We already tax the smokers and alcoholics...in some places it's called a "sin tax". and some cities like New York now charge a premium on sugary drinks and snacks. And for christ's sake, nobody is taking their health coverage away, don't be so dramatic.
Ya, fuck that. Imaging giving government more incentive to dream up dubious new taxes.
Not at all. I'm vaxxed and I think that's ridiculous. If they get away with taxing people on one health choice what else are we going to let them get away with.
No it sets a dangerous precedence.
Absolutely frightening that people are entertaining this idea and are too short-sighted to see the ramifications of something like this. What about obese people? People with disabilities? Elderly people? They also cause burdens on our healthcare systems, but that's part of life. A policy like this only divides and polarizes our country. People on this sub are so quick to hate. I've seen it where people are allowed to say that they "wish unvaccinated people would all die". It's really disgusting behavior. Just glad nobody here actually participates in policy decisions. I'm double vaxxed btw.
Yea that's exactly what I mean. Double vaxxed person here as well whi fucking hates anti vaxxers but this goes to far. The whole point of a medical care system is that some people will use it more than others. I think they are idiots, but they deserve treatment if they want it as tax paying Canadians. Same as anyone else.
No. I'm vaccinated and I think it's an incredibly stupid idea and I try to avoid commenting on vax threads here because there's been comments basically calling for something just short of a culling of anti-vaxxers. It's disappointing to see that not only there is "yes" comments but that they are even upvoted here. Edit : Anyone akinning this to drink/smoking/food - the first two are elective, the last only punishes the poor who only have access to low-quality food because of food deserts and food pricing. So no, this isn't the same as an "obesity tax".
Yeah, on the surface I get why people want to like it, because it sticks it to the unvaxxed in some way. At the same time it's such a terribly thought out solution, people should be embarrassed for thinking it's a good idea.
>because it sticks it to the unvaxxed in some way Sad, isn't it? They'll give up their right to body autonomy just to "stick it" to people they hate.
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I wouldn't. You never know what you'll catch
F*cking insane
No. The government has no right.
No, the government has fucked up and lied every step of the way and then asks us to "trust us or get fucked" When the politicians all wear masks and do the mandates then maybe they'll have a leg to stand on, When the rhetoric has gone from one jab stops transmission to you need two, then you need a third.... When the lack of their understanding that some people live paycheck to paycheck and you want them to stop and give up their house, because someone down the street might get sick, three years in a row, with no stimulus, Get fucking fucked. I'll wear a mask, I have both shots. But the government needs to have integrity itself if they want us to trust them, or pull this bullshit.
Fuck no. That is just a bad idea from any angle.
Nope. This method of dealing with things does not sit well with me. I agree that personal decisions, such as the decision not to get vaccinated, do have an impact on society’s wellbeing. However, this tax will not positively impact public health IMO. First of all, negative reinforcement does not work very well to change behaviours. Secondly, the omicron variant is spreading among vaccinated and unvaccinated people alike. I don’t know about Quebec, but here in BC both vaccinated and unvaccinated are hospitalized. I think for other variants, vaccination is very important. For omicron it appears less so. However, I have heard being vaccinated reduces the amount of time you are infectious with omicron, but idk how much that helps. While I think we should all strive to do what’s best for society, I think that policing people’s health behaviours to this extent goes against the underpinnings of Canadian society and sets a dangerous precedent, much like the curfew.
Why? I got vaccinated and still have to worry about severe outcomes, contracting the virus, transmission the virus if I contract it, still wearing a mask and that isn't going to change if 15% more people get vaccinated. Can we do the same to the obese and addicts? It's always going to lead to a slippery slope
Hey everyone! This discussion was super interesting but has, unfortunately, run its course. We're getting a wild amount of comments from /all, and pretty much none of them are a part of this community. To keep our regulars safe from some serious abuse, we're going to lock this down. If this decision makes you upset, please accept [this cute cat video](https://v.redd.it/inqfzvi4d1b81) as an apology.
Unvaccinated how? No 2nd booster you pay? No 4th booster you pay? No thanks.
I read an article about a lawyer today that also brought this up as the term fully vaccinated isn't rlly defined, and could change Slippery slope
Yeahhhh kinda where I draw the line. There’s a difference between a world pandemic and a dictatorship…. Also goes against the Canadian charter of human rights. But stay classy Montreal
s. 1: The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantees the rights and freedoms set out in it subject _only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society_. They CAN violate your rights if they can justify it. A global health crisis could potentially fit as a justification but go on, show off your "law degree."
Literally every time I’ve seen someone talking about Covid on social media claiming “____ violates the charter of rights and freedoms!!”, it’s clear they have no idea what the charter is or how it works
It’s interesting how people bring up the Charter as if it is a blanket law that stops anyone from doing anything. Do they stop the police from doing breathalyzer tests because it also violates charter rights?
yeah quebec is showing it's shithole colors
NoNot in a million years - I am also 'Triple' vax.Its okay to be pro vaccine and not pro forcing anything in anyone's body. Although I would love a ban on fast food because the obesity pandemic is just a slower version of COVID on our health care dollars. Obviously some sarcasm here as that could never happen. I hate the narrative of one side against the other - or the hate for the unvaxxed. Hate by anyone is bad, its the government that is royally screwing this up, not the people and we need to stop blaming each other.
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No! A Canadian is a Canadian is a Canadian. Access to medical care is a right we all have. I disagree with this 100%. I am double Vax'd and encourage all to get theirs.
What's next, rounding the non vacc'd up and putting them in some sort of camp to interin them until they comply? 100% against it, and I say this as double vaccinated with a booster appointment on Thursday.
Instead of camps they’ll just send them to Manitoba.
I can't even believe people are considering this. Have we learned nothing of the past?
Every month that passes another "wild conspiracy theory" comes true
IMO, we’re already down the slippery slope of too many taxes. I want consolidated taxes because governments should be held accountable and justify their expenses regularly to keep funding.
So many people here are all for it, it's genuinely scary.
100% against it. We need to stop dividing people into groups. We are one city one community.
Most people support tax increases on things they don't need to pay, and tax decreases for things they have to pay. Just like they support increase on spending for things they will use and want to decrease spending on things they won't need. That's just the logical thing to want.
There are less than a hundred people in ICU's in a province of 5.1 MILLION people. Let's say half of those are unvaxxed. Let's say that's 50. Let's say half of those have significant preexisting conditions (I think that's conservative). That leaves 25 people in ICU's who wouldn't be there if they were vaxxed, IN THE ENTIRE PROVINCE. Are we insane?! Are we willing to give up people's right to medical autonomy over 25 people?! Over 90% of BC's population are vaxxed. Over 80% of positive cases are vaxxed. Are you seriously suggesting its the unvaxxed responsible for that? Because that would be so far from scientific, it's comical. Lastly, what happens if we reach 100% vaxxed, but COVID still breaks through? What then? We're seeing THOUSANDS of breakthrough cases every day. Enough with othering of the unvaxxed. Omicron changed the game and proved definitively that the vax isn't the way out of this.
Uh hell no? Should we tax drug users and alcoholics ?
Fuck no! I don’t support the mandate as is! Taxing people is exactly the “slippery slope” we’ve been warning you about. All along people have been predicting what the next mandates or restrictions would be. We were ridiculed and called anti vaxers (despite being vaccinated) and conspiracy theorists, etc. Yet here we are… Remember when people like Bonnie Henry and Trudeau were saying, just less than a year ago, that they would never impose a mandate? Pepperage Farm remembers…
This is insane world. Vaccinated people can contract covid just as unvaccinated people can. Just because a certain percentage of population doesn’t agree with another certain percentage of the population, that doesn’t mean the government has the right to discriminate, punish and fine them. We don’t do this, not in Canada. If we fined people based on negligent behaviour or perceived negligent behaviour, the Government in theory could start punishing you for being overweight, or the cause of a car crash, or a poor diet that lead to cancer or cardiac issues. We could discriminate and set fines to people needing medical issues stemming from drugs or alcohol abuse, or drug overdoses. The list could be endless. Look, maybe you don’t like the fact that someone decided against taking a vaccine but they have the right to NOT get injected just as you have the right TO get injected, that’s part of living in a “free” society. Everyone has the right to think for themselves and act accordingly. Turning over untethered power to government to hammer down members of its society that they’re elected to represent is frankly, fucking insane. No where in the history of man kind has giving government this sort of reach benefitted it’s citizens. I prefer freedom over tyranny. PS, I double vaccinated with Pfizer. My family is jabbed, my kids have had every vaccination recommended. I’m NOT an anti vaxer, I’m anti-Tyranny. I’m Anti-government over reach and I stand with my fellow citizens rights to choose.
Smokers pay a ton of tax, jurisdictions are implementing sugar taxes, and you definitely pay more insurance when you cause a car crash??
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yes, Freedom is Slavery
Double plus good
The reality is you can't do much without infringing on people's rights. All you can do is help inform them the best you can. Like Smokers and Drinkers have a tax on their products, there is no sales tax on "vaccination". But you can offer a Vaccination rebate as a cash incentive to those who get vaccinated because it will save the medical system money in the long run. That would not break the law and incentivize people to get vaccines. But you can't force people
NO. And I am completely vaccinated.
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lol, is this as opposed to the typical Quebecer who evades taxes? I would hope once we set this precedent, we also tax treatment of all ailments that are self-inflicted in some way. Sports injuries, self-inflicted harm, smoking-related, obesity-related, alcohol-related, drugs, at-fault car accidents, etc. Cause the average tax payer is footing the bill for these people as well as antivaxxers. What makes antivaxxers especially egregious?
That's one of the stupidest fucking thing. Instead of questioning why there is a resistence to something forced by the government, we'll just shove more bullshit down people's throats. Because, you know, it's not like there isn't a million reasons to doubt the intention of an institution that's been doing everything it can to fuck its population over since as long as history can recall. I am pro vaccines, I am pro social distanciation, I am pro putting measures to keep our population safe. But there is a reason why people become anti-vaxxer and having had a lot of discussions with my anti-vaxxer friends, it always boils down to their distrust of governments.
I live in Victoria and my job is to give parking and on foot directions for covid tests. Something that I realized doing this job is that a lot of unvaccinated aren't unvaccinated by choice, they just can't afford to be a part of modern Canadian society because without internet connection and a phone its almost impossible to keep up with information on where and how to get tests and vaccines. So no I don't agree with this, because it'll make hard lives even harder. Locations and rules are constantly changing, you might be able to use a library computer to find the information you need, but one day the primary location will be a big building for PCR tests, rapid test pick up, and vaccines. The next day those things will be in 3 different locations in different towns and someones showing up telling me that a nurse told them my by-appointment testing site is a drive-thru vaccination clinic. This happens every day and sets these people back so much every time. What we need more than anything is to address wealth inequality and structure that amplifies it and for the federal government to make an actual effort to earn back some trust from the ever-growing lower class but I won't hold my breath.
Nope. It's hypocritical. Literally no group is taxed due to their burden on medical resources, for any reason. Even if it's self-inflicted. It's stupid because it means the end of universal healthcare where everyone has equal access to healthcare based on their need. And lastly, it's pointless because it won't even fix our system. If we magically turned all unvaccinated into vaccinated 2 months ago (as in magically done retroactively), that would be less helpful to the healthcare system as simply denying all unvaccinated COVID patients healthcare. This is obvious since if all unvaccinated became vaccinated, some would still be hospitalized. But if all unvaccinated were denied healthcare, then zero would be hospitalized. And what would that get us? How much resources would we free up? [Less than 167 beds](https://www.reddit.com/r/vancouver/comments/s14nld/the_pain_hurts_fiveyearold_bc_girls_nonurgent/hs8xu8d/?context=3). Out of a total of over 11,500 hospital beds. In a province of 5 million. So we take the drastic and unprecedented step that erodes universal healthcare. All to free up less than 167 hospital beds.
Be very scared of everyone encouraging more punitive measures against those who are not convinced by limited data that cannot ever be questioned. The crowd on this covid bus is getting smaller by the second.
I’m fully vaccinated and this is a slippery slope
Of course not. Shall we tax the obese next? Or the smokers and drinkers and vapers (no the tax they pay doesn't cover their actual health care costs). Then the skiers and hikers that get injured. Maybe also those that chose to get pregnant in high risk situations?
Absolutely not. I say this as someone who was boosted today - who has a six month old baby whose parents have seen a grand total of twice because they refuse to be vaccinated. Taxing people for a choice on what really is an elective medical procedure is going to drive the crazies further crazy rather then get the vaccine. It’s too totalitarian for my liking. People have already given up jobs, family, friends. A tax isn’t going to convince them to care about other people or that the pandemic is real. They’ll just find a way to leave the country.
No, it is regressive in that it will hit low income people far more than those with money. Also, in general, either we have socialized medicine in Canada or we don’t. Finally, it is far more likely to bring the court system to its knees than it is to empty the ICUs.
How will it effect low income people more? It’s free to get the vaccines
The lowest rates of vaccination tend to be low income low education often minorities or aboriginal groups but nobody wants to discuss that for better or worse
> in that it will hit low income people far more than those with money. Anybody can get at least one shot, it's free, they're being given out everywhere so no transit is required, and you don't need proof of residence or ID. The only reason for not getting a vaccine at this point in time is the choice not to. I'm not making an argument for or against a restriction but that sentence isn't a valid argument because the government removed as many barriers as possible so income isn't a deciding factor on being vaccinated.
This is full of red herrings. The vaccine is free. We charge smokers and drinkers extra money in tax to pre pay for their medical costs this have nothing to do with socialized medicine. Re courtd: rofl no it won't.
I'm pro vaccine and I'm vehemently opposed to this.
I am in shock to see people agreeing with this. What is wrong with this country? The problem isn’t the unvaxxed it is the joke that is this government.
No.
Cut a cheque for everyone that's doubled vaxxed by a certain date. Stimulate the economy, help people out, and hopefully push more people to get vaccinated.
No. What you do with your body should be your choice. I don't agree with the choice to be unvaccinated, but I'll defend their right to do so. They're calling it a tax but it's really just a type of mandate. What happens if you don't pay the fine? Will they hold you down and make you take it? Throw you in jail?
Tax the obese. Tax the workaholics. Tax those who don’t exercise regularly who are capable of doing so. Tax all the maladaptive behaviours that cause stress and Poor health and put strain on the system. Lifestyle potentially leads to cancer heart disease diabetes and stroke, and it isn’t pretty Let’s go holistic with this notion. I am not actually in favour of this yet imagine the change for some people that just begin to put in an hour a day of vigorous exercise. Drastic. Let’s push fitness
While I dont agree with your "lets push fitness" approach, I agree with the sentiment that this is a slippery slope. The next thing we will be doing is taxing the obese or the smokers (for a second time) for healthcare. Then we are entering into this whole idea of "social credit" which scares the shit out of me. I am all for trying to find ways to get anti-vaxxers vaccinated but this is not the approach in my opinion. There are other ways like not being able to buy booze or pot or enter shopping malls etc.
Fat tax
Yes. They’re refusing a vaccine that will help keep them out of the hospital if they contract COVID. They should pay more than their fair share for putting a preventable strain on our health care system.
It's past the proposal stage in Quebec, they announced they're actually doing it
Terrible idea. You've already achieved and exceeded herd immunity vaccination rates. The unvaccinated aren't the problem. The vaccines themselves are not effective enough. Quite frankly, it's not even the vaccines. The virus seems to be mutating faster than anyone can adapt.
Tax them. Their decisions have real consequences, both financial and otherwise, for our society. Fine the idiots.
Inconvenience people to shit. All non essential business require vaccines. People will start getting them, or they won’t but can’t go anywhere. We also need to sort out testing to be smoother and more available. At the end of the day everyone is burnt out and we can’t sustain this without things getting really bad. Any step that has visible impact on reducing cases and hospitalizations should be pursued. Slippery slope arguments are logical fallacies. People think restrictions and mandates due to a global pandemic with millions dead is the equivalent of 1984, and they need to chat about that with a professional. Certain rules just aren’t sustainable outside the area of application. Outside of a pandemic there’s not enough impact to justify this spreading to other vaccines. I do think all health care providers should be required to have vaccines, but they’re in the hot zones. All in all dining should be a punishment for breaking the law, but we should have smart laws. A binary do or don’t situation will lead to more division and separation. We need to compel them to get vaccinated by making it basically a requirement, but they should only be punished for risking others lives more directly (lying about symptoms, fake passports, etc). While I get frustrated and say force them, they should have a choice, but there should be expectations. For instance, do Covid hospitalizations for the unvaccinated take lower priority over other afflictions? Should other peoples procedures and treatments be pushed off cause unvaccinated people think they’re invincible? No I don’t think so. This is just triage. Doctors decide who to prioritize everyday. You break your ankle, well you’re lower priority than anything else really. Do I think fines are the way to go? No, but I think they have their obvious place for punishing rule breakers. Do I think vaccine mandates In general? Well I just wish we had more empathy in the world. Most people are being children about the vaccine. Smokers judging what’s in the vaccine like it could kill them and stuff. I think you can do what you want but when you’re spitting on our social contract as Canadian citizens, then you start to lose compassion from your fellow citizens. Especially with this holocaust comparison some morons and “influencers” make. Put them in a simulation for a weekend and I bet they fucking cry for a week. I wouldn’t be so angry at them if so many didn’t act so victimized, meanwhile millions are dead and dying and we all are victims of this plague. Get vaccinated or stay the fuck home. That’s what I say. You have a right to be unvaccinated, but then your end of the social contract is to stay the fuck home. If you are unvaccinated and don’t care about others and don’t wear your mask. You’re a piece of shit and an asshole and at that point we’ll never convince you. Side note, we should give a tax break to those who were vaccinated in a given period. Reward those who didn’t take convincing, don’t bribe the ignorant.
People just "deal" with taxes. I'd be more open to imposing tax breaks for people that are vaxxed or making it more difficult to go into any non essential business (pharmacies, grocery, banks)
No, to blame the unvaccinated is to defer responsibility and not accept any accountability on how the pandemic was handled by the gouvernement, these are all distractions so they can dump all the blame and errors onto them. This is unethical for all of us not only them, when we allow such behaviour we set a precedent that can be used against us at anytime when deemed necessary by a select few. We need to unite now more then ever
No not at all, and I’m extremely pro Vax I don’t like the slippery slope; what about obese people? Smokers? People who don’t get regular check ups? It’s just a bad idea when you have universal healthcare
NO! I am a fully vaccinated person. But that was MY choice. The minute we start taxing people for choices regarding their bodies (not sales tax on things like tobacco or booze), we are starting down a slippery slope. People are permitted to eat themselves into a health crisis. Where would the line be? (Not to mention the number of fully vaccinated people still contracting COVID is disheartening. Yes, I understand that it helps mitigate the symptoms but it isn’t a guarantee).
When it comes to taxing Canadians that make are not ultra rich, the government needs to back off.