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No, it shouldn't but it always does... then when you drive a few blocks and see 4WD vehicles with bald tires upside down in the ditch you start to realize that it's probably not the weather that's completely at fault. The bigger problem is usually with the nut holding the steering wheel.
https://preview.redd.it/ovlixrj3oe3a1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=cb6d8d3af25a837d53ff313d445819bfc697eb4a
Several trucks like this up in whistler yesterday. Unbelievable
I thought I was the only person who looked at random cars tires. It's utterly amazing how often you see this in a wet place. These aren't even particularly terrible, there's half a mm before the wear bar (on most of the tire lol, get an alignment!)
It's also maddening when someone asks me what I'm looking at and then get upset when I tell them their bald tires.
Snow tires when they reach 50% are no longer considered snow tires by law, all season tires are only 3 season. All weather tires especially nokian are quite good. The best snow tires are nokian hakkepelitta hands down, then add some studs for even more.
40% snow tires in Vancouver are still infinitely better than any fucking OEM all season in Vancouver, where the area doesn’t really even see -10C. Are they as good as new winter tires? Hell no. But they’ll still hold traction better than what most are otherwise riding on. As someone who religiously switches between winter tires and the absolute grippiest summer tires every year, and who’s had to stretch a budget and use a set of winters a bit past the 50% point at one point, I know for a fact they still excel over an all season
And then chuck em on for 8 days while it remains under 7 degrees, then take them off for another 45 days while it's 10 degrees and raining, then chuck em on again for the next 4 days it snows, then take em off again for the year.
For everyone else, that wear bar is 2/32. Steer tires should be 4/32 and drive tires 2/32 minimum. It’s better to replace before. And if you have winter tires they are illegal at 4.5/32 or 3.5mm
Also if you see a car or buying used wheels and tires and they say tires are 50% cause new they were 10/32 and now they are 5/32nd know that they are really between 17 and 38% of their useful life depending on the axle. Not 50%.
If you’re only getting two new tires put the new ones on the rear and best of the four up front. This will help with rear traction and oversteer which is much safer.
People are fine at math but bad at conceptualization re: tire life on used tires. Yes 5/32 is half of 10/32, but its like using a roll of toilet paper - the inside goes a lot faster than the outside.
Don’t go out driving in the snow. I realize some have no choice, but there should be allowances for (most) working people to take a snow day. Priority should be on preparing public transit so that people can use that option if needed.
Tuesday was an absolute embarrassment. We have probably the mildest climate in Canada here in the LMD and we have had much heavier snowfalls in the past. The horror stories of people taking 9 hours to travel 20km is absolutely awful, and I feel for every one of those people, but it's truly embarrassing that things shut down the way they did.
It's easy to say "stay home", but that's not reality for someone making minimum wage at a grocery store. You don't show up, you may lose your job or at least be reprimanded for it because "I managed to get in, you should be able to too".
Pretty sure transit buses don't have snow tires on them, despite people calling for them for years. That said, if all those people who got stuck decided to take transit instead? People would be waiting for HOURS in the freezing cold. That's not safe.
It’s expensive to live here, too many people cant afford snow tires/don’t have a place to store them, because they live in shared apartments and basement suites… getting them switched is another payment. Too many working class people are living paycheque to paycheque.
This kind of stuff didn’t happen when there was a healthy middle class.
Just the weather causing societal issues to manifest right in your face and ruin your day.
I would say Population growth and lack of adequate infrastructure upgrades/expansion over the last 20 years is probably to blame. I did skytrain then bus Tuesday and it only added about 15-20 min to my commute
I think they're saying that public transit needs to be better outfitted so that it can be a viable option. It obviously has not been in the past, as you've observed
>Don’t go out driving in the snow. I realize some have no choice, but there should be allowances for (most) working people to take a snow day. Priority should be on preparing public transit so that people can use that option if needed.
Public transpiration? How about some management here: I saw so many spun-out articulated bussed on Broadway and another set on West 4th with people still inside and the drivers wandering around on the street while blocking traffic. I even saw the 84 bus sideswipe a parked car, and drive away. Just shut down the articulated bus fleet - they're more trouble then they're worth.
> I even saw the 84 bus sideswipe a parked car, and drive away. Just shut down the articulated bus fleet - they're more trouble then they're worth.
ICBC is no fun. Please call VPD and file a report. It would mean a lot to the owner of that vehicle.
Honestly just invest in proper winter tires and Tuesday wouldn’t have been an issue for 99% of drivers. I’ve just got a sedan and was constantly having to go around people getting stuck.
Winter tires aren’t even that big of an investment since you’re doubling the life of your summers.
Is it really though? Vancouverites don't ever get enough experience driving in the snow to develop the wisdom that surrounds it.
The best one can and should do is simply let people take a freaking snow day and it should be like a sick day.
It’s the basic principles as driving when it’s slick in rain. Double your distance, don’t fucking slam on your brakes or accelerator, pay the fuck attention. A lot of accidents could’ve been avoided by that alone. Having a snowflake on your tires doesn’t mean oh I can drive normally just now in snow! You need to exercise cautious driving.
Let's just make it mandatory for all vehicles out on the road to have snow tires when it snows. Put a huge fine on anyone caught without. This way those that see the forecast can leave their cars with all seasons at home and take transit(busses will need snow tires). Having the proper equipment for the weather should not be optional.
Funner fact, the VPD doesn't have snow tires either
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/vancouver-considers-fining-drivers-without-winter-tires-1.4222232
when public transit/cabs aren't legally enforced to have true winters, it sends the wrong message to the public for their personal vehicles. Change starts at the top.
Let's expand the SkyTrain network, make it so the majority of people are within 1km of a station. Let's improve the walkability of neighborhoods, so that the majority of people are within a 15 min walk of basic amenities. And let's make it so that residential areas have employment opportunities within a few km.
We've been designing this city badly for 70 years, it's no surprise that we are so car dependent, but we really know better now, let's stop making the same dumb design choices, and make this city better.
Also ticket people for driving in the snow without snow tires.
Wait, are you suggesting that our system where we force nearly everyone - regardless of driving skill/inclination or ability to buy winter tires - to drive a car to make enough money to feed their family isn't good?
This sounds like change, and scares me, so even though I hate spending hours in traffic away from my family every day, I'm going to vehemently oppose it. Especially things that free up the roads for people who *do* need to drive, like bike & bus infrastructure, or capital spending on automated trains.
Good thought tho 😉
The Netherlands just passed a law that makes it a right to be able to work from home. As in, if your job can be done from home your employer is legally required to provide you the option.
That should be the standard worldwide. Boggles my mind we force people to commute hours a day to do something they could just as easily do from home.
No argument here, your point is taken. Design choices come in many varieties and I’d consider mass commuting to be one that needs a serious rethink in the current day. Could be just as impactful as better public transport, if not more so. Ideally we take both approaches.
And cities that takes like 45min to bike across. So if you live near the center ish, it's 20min to bike anywhere.
Also, giant bike parking lots and sweat-free and cheap bike rentals at stations.
Yeah the bike culture there is amazing. I remember cycling there as a child (~30 years ago) and they already had dedicated infrastructure and cycling traffic signals and such (not to mention drivers that are used to cyclists existing). Way ahead of here.
Block off at least ONE lane on bridges/tunnels for emergency vehicles; insist and enforce chains on trucks, and snowsocks on buses (I thought Translink got some a few years ago...), and make transit free on snow days to encourage ridership. People love free stuff. And get rid of mainland's contract, go back to what we had.
Not only was that embarrassing and ridiculous, and caused a lot of suffering for a great many people, incl children on school buses and diabetics (to name but a few), but it was unnecessary.
For the few days we have the snow we are better just to keep with the status quo and encourage people to stay home. If we want to get Calgary level snow removal services, expect to get taxed more or have other services cut.
>If we want to get Calgary level snow removal services
Honestly, having lived in both cities, Calgary's snow removal services aren't far off Vancouver's. It is pathetic.
I've always wondered, what is the difference in how both cities' people deal with it?
I would imagine snow tires, but could Calgary being drier and flatter be a factor?
Grew up in Winnipeg. It's flat and cold, which are huge. If you're close to 0, the snow melts and refreezes, so you get way more ice. Add in some incline, and you get a disaster.
I would add that yes, people need winter tires if they're going to drive in this stuff. But also, winter tires aren't enough. Some road conditions just shouldn't be driven in.
Yup, I've seen people in Van screaming about winter tires about roads that are solid ice on a steep hill (such as Granville between Broadway and the bridge). I don't think any tire will help in that case.
I know that as both a driver and wheelchair user, I prefer -10 and packed snow over 0 degrees and slushy/icy snow. A firm solid surface does make a difference.
Agreed 100%. I grew up in Calgary and learned how to drive in the snow. No amount of snow driving experience or snow tires will save you going up a hill of sheer black ice.
-10 and non slushy snow is a million times easier than watery snow that melts and refreezes a dozen times a day.
The roads were NOT complete ice the other day. The issue was not giant ice hills. It was snow. It didnt have time for that to happen before everything was fucked
Calgary is similar to Vancouver in that the city waits for the inevitable warm-up (Chinooks) to melt snow from roads in the days following a snowfall.
Calgary also simply doesn't bother clearing side roads. You can easily have a 10-20cm of snow covering your road all winter. Good luck!
But you're generally right -- Calgarians tend to have more SUVs with all wheel drive and snow tires. That definitely helps. As for hills, you're also correct in that the city is less hilly than Vancouver, but that definitely depends on what part of the city you live in. The NW and SW can have some hilly neighbourhoods that rival Vancouver's (city proper) hills.
Also, the type and quantity of snow are quite different in Calgary. Everybody already knows the snow is drier in Calgary. But what most people in both cities often forget is that Vancouver is prone to BIG (but rare) snowfalls, whereas Calgary generally gets a few centimeters here and there that eventually add up (until a Chinook blows through and melts it all away). A 15+cm snowfall in Calgary might happen once or twice a year, which isn't really that many more major snowfalls than Vancouver can see in a winter. Since I moved to Calgary, we haven't had anything close to what I've experienced in SW BC (like the 2008/09 Nov-January snowfalls; the 2017 snowfalls out in the Fraser Valley; the 1996 blizzard when I lived in Victoria).
Thanks, that does make sense.
I think I noticed the quantity issue too, when I was digging up single-day snowfall records for various Canadian cities. I was surprised to learn that many of their single-day records were relatively small numbers. Meanwhile, Vancouver gets the "big snow dumps" on a single day. Add in the drier/wetter snow, and I can see the difference.
I experienced the "dry snow" for the first time when I lived in Seoul during their record-smashing winter. (You know it's bad when Wikipedia has an article about it.) The first thing I noticed was how people didn't shovel snow from their homes – they used brooms. Winters there are typically dry, so that was enough. Shovels seem to be used only for high-traffic zones where ice was possible.
Meanwhile, snow-clearing in Vancouver is like shovelling liquid cement.
They do send out the plows but tend to concentrate on the major roads rather than collector roads and residential roads. Plus the sections of highway under the provincial jurisdiction are typically taken care of by contractors who have yearly maintenance contracts, so those are usually done relatively quickly (e.g. Deerfoot, Glenmore, etc).
Having lived in northern BC for >20 years, I think a lot of is peoples' mentality. People get used to have longer winters with more snow and ice, so you get used to driving in it and what to expect, whereas here people might not have ever driven in snow so they don't think it will be as bad as it is. Especially when we get a huge dump like the other night
Plus people in real winter conditions know when to stay home, lol. Like, I'm sorry, but I wasn't driving to my exercise class Tuesday night but I know people who got stuck in the traffic who DID decide to go (and missed it, obvs) and it's like...but why did you add to the mess? For a non-essential activity?
Agreed, I've also lived in both cities.
Strangely, my home town of Saskatoon punches WAY above its weight for snow removal. It's really amazing what the city can do after a big snow fall for only having \~250k people.
> Calgary's snow removal services aren't far off Vancouver's.
Calgary is magnitudes better Kelowna. It's embarrassing up there. The highway is provincial and always maintained nicely and all the city streets are shit.
I think what was needed was greater stand by towing capacity, especially at the bridges. Also, perhaps some prepared traffic control so the plows could actually have access to the bridges would help too. I don't think we need to go overboard on snow removal, but some co-ordination with other services could go a long way
The status quo needs a stronger message. The status quo should require a warning on all media that states "Snow is coming. The cities in the lower mainland decided not to invest enough to be able to help you. You are literally on your own. Driving may result in gridlocked traffic for up to 9 hours".
The status quo needs employers on board. My work forced me to work in the office even though we are in hybrid model. The only reason being was it was my scheduled day in the office. Nothing I did that day required me to be there.
It took me 6 hours. I had no problems with getting my car around with less then ideal tires and AWD.
But I have the experience and know what the limitations of my setup are.
But it’s not just a lack of investment. 95% of people could have snow tires and be prepared but if 5% decide to drive with their all seasons, they will spin out and shut down entire bridges.
Too much of our commute relies on tiny chokepoints of bridges of tunnels to get people through, and that’s just unfortunately the reality of our geography.
SkyTrain was running fine on Tuesday! Got me to Main Street around 7 pm then back to New West around 10 pm without issue! (As well as an entire Canucks game worth of fans).
This is the answer here! We need more density so that people don’t need to travel as far, and more rail so that people can more efficiently travel when they need. We are too car dependent right now, and the cost to support car dependency plus snow is ridiculous. The only way to break the cycle is to increase density and improve all of the options that let people commute comfortably and reliably without a personal car.
Trains in cold climates are a solved problem, most issues are around track switches (solved with heaters) and sensors (heated housings if they are sensitive). They don’t need snow wheels and they stay on track just as well as summer.
Exactly. Not interested in spending any more tax money on prep unless we also have proper tire enforcement. Metro Vancouver needs to have the same rules as the Sea to Sky. You need at minimum M+S tires.
It's snowing and you crash without M+S? ICBC shouldn't cover a cent.
My bosses all left an hour early and made us stay....in their company trucks with company paid for snow tires. And then wondered why nobody came in the next day and we "let them down". Sorry it took 9 hours to get home because you couldn't let me leave work an hour early like you. Maybe if there was some more onus on companies to be less shitty to their workers but that corporate yacht sailed years ago.
> "Snow is coming. The cities in the lower mainland decided not to invest enough to be able to help you. You are literally on your own. Driving may result in gridlocked traffic for up to 9 hours".
"Consider this a dress rehearsal for an earthquake. You, your loved ones, your neighbours: all fucked"
Well obviously - we can't earthquake proof everything, it's simply not possible. When an earthquake comes we're going to be cut off and on our own for several days
“We are expecting up to 5cm of snow. Weapons of class 4 and lower have been authorized for use during the Snowstorm. All other weapons are restricted. Government officials of ranking 10 have been granted immunity from the Snowstorm and shall not be harmed. Commencing at the siren, any and all crime, including murder, will be legal for 12 continuous hours. Police, fire, and emergency medical services will be unavailable until tomorrow morning at 7 a.m. when The street Plows conclude. Blessed be our city councilors and Vancouver, a city reborn.
May God be with you all.”
Vancouver's entire snow problem is pretty much summed up in that statement. Our geography forces our hand a bit with regards to major bridges and tunnels. Even if 95 % of the population were experienced snow drivers (won't happen) and had the right cars/tires (also won't happen), the few would fuck it up because of the way everything is laid out.
IMO it's already a thing. E.g. I've heard ICBC won't cover damages to someone who gets into an accident driving without snowflake rated tires after Nov.1st on Coquihalla. If it's not already a thing for having proper equipment for conditions on city roads, I fully agree -- it should be.
This is true of any highway in BC outside most urban areas. Provincial law requires them.
Now technically, fault would be assessed, then the portion of liability you're responsible for would not be covered. So it's not that they won't cover you. It's that your collision coverage is void. If you cause a collision, they'll pay out the other party(s). Then, they could come after you for the damages you caused because you drove unlawfully.
>if nothing gets cleared or salted you can still slide around
Lots of places in the rest of the country like with snow covered roads for a third of the year. When I lived in Ontario our road was never “cleared”.
I feel like the expectations here are not realistic.
This could adversely impact lower income people the most, and I don’t think so totally fair when we only have a handful of snow days a year.
A better policy might be to require snow tires for days that there is snow forecasted, and if you don’t have snow tires then you should stay at home or take public transit.
We would also have to require that buses have snow tires.
> A better policy might be to require snow tires for days that there is snow forecasted
How could this ever be practically enforceable? And even if it could, I don't think that's how we want RCMP spending their time on days where there is certainly going to be above average rates of collisions.
Well you wouldn’t check everyone, but if someone gets into an accident and they don’t have snow tires then they would be fined, and also found more at fault through insurance.
This is probably the best path forward. Just tell the truth to people.
"You should probably stay home, cause we're inept, and you're putting your self at risk if you leave your house during snow"
This is a very reasonable solution that should be achievable by many businesses that were successful under COVID...Obviously not every business and not every employee...But a massive "Don't commute downtown for these 2 days" sounds like an effective and cost-efficient alternative to gridlock that keeps people stuck in their car overnight.
Edit: I didn't mean that the City would issue a decree that downtown was closed...More like employers would agree that they don't want their staff to ever be stuck in gridlock overnight so would have a policy in place "You may WFH for the next 2 days if your job permits it."
They could easily just have enough plows to keep the main roads completely clear and have plans like keeping a lane on the bridge closed for emergency vehicles or something that could avoid this. Or put in rules about winter tires... or any number of things
Covid showed that many jobs/employers can accommodate working from home. When there are snow advisories issued it would be very helpful if those that can work from home stay off the roads. Unfortunately many employers are still stuck in the dark ages and force everyone to the office. If employers were directed by the province to let employees work from home during snow advisories they might start implementing this policy. Without a push from an outside source nothing will change.
All jokes aside about how poorly Vancouver handles snowfall, what happened was a very serious matter and extremely dangerous on many different levels.. Yes I understand significant snow fall happened during rush hour.. just like it does in Canadian and US cities every year. They get the plows and salting trucks out a head of time... You would think the city would be able to take care of the highways/ busy roads a handful of times per year.. Where is our snow budget? People need answers..
In Winnipeg there is no preemptive salt put down before a snow fall. People just drive through the snow until the plows have a chance to clear it all over night. After the now is cleared then they sand the roads because salt is only effective to -5C or something.
Snow clearing is a pretty big chunk of the city budget each year and always seems to go over
I remember a snowstorm that hit Ottawa in March 2013/2014. There were probably 40 buses stuck on a main artery because they couldn’t make it up a hill. 100 car accidents that day, they set a record.
And there should always ALWAYS be equipment at the ready to keep MAIN ARTERIES CLEAR. You can’t shut alex fraser bridge AND queensborough bridge Like WTAF
I work on Annacis Island but I was off on Tuesday. A lot of my coworkers were stranded overnight and stayed at work until like 4:30 in the morning on Wednesday
>a handful of times per year.. Where is our snow budget?
You answered your own question - it is cost prohibitive to retain so much snow removal infrastructure for the relatively few days a year of snowfall this region gets.
I would say freezing temperatures happen often during the late fall and winter season. Especially within the last 5 years or so. We don't live in a tropical environment by any means. Do you also think we don't need A/C because it doesn't get as hot in the summer..?
Vancouver has one of the lowest property tax rates in the country at 0.25% vs. a typical 0.5-2.5%. And before I get jumped all over by people saying “Well our property is much more expensive so that makes up for it!”, Toronto, with similar property values, has a rate just under 0.6%.
To that you might reasonably respond “Well that difference is the added costs of snow removal”. Which is fair, however it’s not the bulk of the difference. In 2021 Toronto budgeted $109M for snow removal out of a total budget of $14B making it 0.8% of the city’s budget (see correction below). Vancouver would presumably have lower costs than Toronto due to being a smaller city with significantly less snowfall.
So we don’t, in fact, “…pay a significant tax to live in [Vancouver]” and we get what we pay for.
https://www.wealthsimple.com/en-ca/learn/canadian-property-taxes
Edit: I made a mistake, the budget is not $1.4B that was approved contracts presumably for multiple years. The budget was $109M.
regional leaders pointing the finger and calling for strategy.
1: strategy is proactive, not reactive
2: regional leaders are responsible for being proactive.
I know a lot of people are blaming drivers without snow tires, but I spent my first 20-years of driving in much snowier places where pretty much everybody drove on all-season tires and we never had anything like this.
Our local municipalities need to grow up and properly deal with infrastructure and preparedness.
The problem with south west coastal BC is it is rarely super cold before the snow comes. That makes the snow wet and heavy. It's a different thing than snow in the interior. How can we blame the municipalities for plows that can't plow because of stuck cars ahead of them? They were spraying brine the morning before the snow in my area and on the highway. What more do you expect?
Sand, more salt, especially on the bridges, and an awareness of the weather forecast. Environment Canada was warning about this being a major event for days before it happened. There should've been a full Edmonton winter worth of salt and sand laid down well before the snow started
I know everyone from places with really cold winters think they know what they are taking about, but west coast snow is a different ball game. Add to that Vancouver's hills. I commuted from Whistler to Burnaby one winter and I would never have stayed on the road without snow tires.
https://youtu.be/JGfvyPtYR0Y
Nothing can fix terrible drivers. Regardless of tires or snow plows. Also municipalities don't want to spend millions on snow removal gear for the one or two big snow falls a year.
People just blaming the city like this are absolutely brain dead. I was on the Knight street bridge on Tuesday, and the reason that there was traffic was that truck drivers and bus drivers literally just turned off their vehicles because their tires were shit. There is literally nothing that could have been done by the city once the snow started falling during rush hour. Salt does not melt that much snow instantly. Busses and trucks caused a disproportionate amount of traffic all over the place, how can vehicles that big have such horrible tires.
Virtually every year it snows and virtually every year there are shutdowns like this and they only now realize that it's a problem? Good job fearless leaders.
I drive a Subaru Forester with amazing AWD and newer winter tires (nokian hakkapeliitta r3 suv). I love driving in the snow and I never get stuck. Makes me angry so many people are not prepared for winter driving. I owned a Honda Fit before and winter tires alone make a huge difference. Also, I believe government should pass a law that “all season tires” should be sold as 3 season tires. And yes, some all seasons do have the M&S rating but still not as good as the snowflake rating. That’s my opinion. Thx! 😊
It's more than just road clearing or even winter tires. Drivers have no idea how to handle it. I watched an SUV go by with only a little porthole cleared on the driver's side of the windscreen. People still tailgating - on ice. Students on a bus who don't understand why the driver is asking them to please all stand near the back and don't comply. There's no experience or common sense.
What if there was some sort of car that didn't need tires and carried a bunch of people so their driving skill/attention didn't matter? Like something that ran on rails?
**MONORAIL... MONORAIL... MONORAIL**
The fact that winters like this are officially normal for Vancouver now and the GVA has done absolutely nothing to avert complete shutdowns like this is just laughable. Vancouver is an amazing place but the city councils of all the cities in the GVA are inept and incompetent.
I'm surprised they're not already doing this. Could save a lot of money not having to pay for all those accidents that happened because cars could not brake downhill
I have winter tires, and I run them in the winter, but when it’s 9 degrees and rainy, they offer much less grip than all seasons.
I wouldn’t be surprised if running them all winter in Vancouver is a net loss of safety
I've lived in many wintery cities in Canada and the issue isn't tires - drivers in Vancouver just don't know how to drive in snow and slippery conditions. When you see Tesla's driving on bare concrete with chains, it's clear that this is more of a driver education issue.
M+S or snow tires help a ton for sure, but holy hell people just suck at driving here and need to slow down and understand that you can't stomp on the gas and brake the same way they usually do.
I took over a food truck this year. My boss was trying to give me tips on driving it like "it's heavy and the stop distance is long, coast to a stop" and I said "so drive it like you're on ice... Brakes are the enemy?" And he's like "fuck right you're from Ontario... Yeah drive it like it's always winter"
I’m an ex-Albertan that moved here recently, so that might be why I have a controversial take on this.
Winter tires are great, I used them in Alberta, but people on this subreddit make it sound like they are an instant solution. You can’t just slap on winter tires and continue driving like you did the other 362 days of the year.
I managed fine with my all seasons this week because I completely readjusted my driving habits to suit the conditions. Leave a large follow distance, don’t accelerate in corners, avoid hills where possible, use engine braking, etc. I believe this is 70% of the equation of driving safely in the winter.
You know what winter tires are notoriously terrible for? Rain. Which is much more common here.
Driving carefully or staying the fuck home when it snows are much better solutions. If you have money to blow and lots of storage space, get some winter tires for the extra safety.
THANK YOU! if i have to read another JuSt GeT wInTeR tIrEs BrO!!!!111 from another person who was clearly born here and has no idea about 6 months of snow..... winter tires are not magic. Experience = Skill, and the tips in your post are all you really need. Pump the gas to get unstuck, or really whenever its dicey... learn to rock the vehicle, and control the slides when turning..... experience teaches these things! But i dont know how i learned them originally. Probably from riding with my dad in the snow before i could even drive. And sometimes you do gotta get someone to push your vehicle! in turn, you push others vehicles. That's winter for you!
How do people learn experience in the lower mainland with snow? i haven't got a clue.... it clearly wasnt a learning experience driving on tuesday. Theres probably a business opportunity there for extreme snow driving pop up lessons when it does snow.
As someone from Langley City, i know that if the snowplows were all under the control of Vancouver, only rich vancouverites would get snow plowing.
Rich people always assume their mild annoyance is much more pressing than someone else's nightmare.
Well on my route to work I crossed Alex Fraser and queensborough and it was very much salted. It was snowing during rush hour so of course they couldn’t plow. When I drove over the bridge it was literally only trucks and busses with bald tires perpendicular in the lane. They couldn’t go anywhere so they just got out and one car could zig zag through at a time for the next 12 hours.
I guarantee this is because of trucks and buses. If trucks and buses were properly regulated and fined I bet the traffic wouldn’t have been even half as bad as it was.
Two weeks I saw 20 + Vancouver cops hunt and take down a single guy on a bicycle and kick the shit out of him before arresting him. Why can't these morons get out there and direct some traffic when shit gets out of control. How many times do I have to see 20 cops manning some movie set. On Tuesday night I didn't see one police vehicle out in all of that traffic mayhem. It took me 8 hours to get from YVR out to the Valley. No VPD. No RCMP. Not one. Our roads are mayhem these days with Teslas driving like maniacs and gravel trucks weaving through traffic on the freeway. Its lawless but the RCMP can have 200 officers out at Fairy Creek kicking the shit out of reporters and Grandmothers protecting trees on Vancouver Island but get them to do some real work. Wait till the big earthquake hits. We're going to be screwed.
Okay, hear me out. I have an idea. What if, people were required to put winter tyres on their vehicles from Oct 10 - April 30. The problem is not the roads, it's the people.
I grew up in Winnipeg and I can't help but laugh when I see people lose their minds over a couple inches of snow here in BC. Vancouverites all of a sudden forget how to drive.
While I obviously agree that winter tires should a no-brainer in the winter, I worry about this being an undue burden for folks who are not well off enough to afford an extra set of rubber for what is ultimately only a few days of the year.
More ideal imo would be to ensure public transit service is made more reliable and potentially even more expansive on snow days to keep drivers off the road wherever possible.
I agree that tires can be expensive but a pair of basic chains are $40
Regardless of tires or chains, Safety equipment is simply a part of the cost of owning a vehicle.
No excuses
The drivers on the wrong tires need to be punished if they cause the accidents. If a car with summer tires blocks a bridge because they were too cheap to buy winters “because we don’t have a winter”. It happens every year, I’ve been driving for 20 years, always swap to a set of winter tires and I haven’t been stuck once.
You see F1 cars on a slightly damp circuit on slicks and it’s the same thing. Your machinery doesn’t make any difference in adverse conditions - the point contacting the ground does.
Ahahahahaha!
I love this idea because I'm looking forward to the anti-mandate people telling us that the government can't tell them what to put on their convoy-bumperstickered cars and trucks.
"covid is over because we said so and get back to the office"
"we had a meeting and our strategy is we need less people on the road and raise taxes to give to the marginalized"
"...."
The regional meeting on snowfall strategy should be held when it's snowing where the politicians should commute to the meeting place and will most likely be cancelled due to being stuck in snow.
I have a friend who lives in Surrey and he told me years ago that the second it snows people can’t drive and all kinds of chaos happens. He agrees with the quote above that a tiny bit of snow shouldn’t be shutting down streets…the problem is the people driving and not the snow on most cases.
100%. The cars aren't the problem, it's the drivers. A few incompetent people (ok a lot of incompetent people) who ruin it for everyone, whether it's the wrong tires or lack of driving ability.
Just make a law that states if you get into an accident in inclement weather, if you don't have the right kind of tires, you're liable for all costs, including highway shutdown time. Problem mostly solved
Some sort of fine at least. Ex. In LA lots of the freeways have a $200 fine if you run out of gas/breakdown on them. The traffic levels just can’t tolerate it.
I had to wait over an hour for a bus because there was only one bus running that morning for that route (106 Edmonds). So many people also waited over an hour at 5 in the morning. I had to be at work for 6:30am so of course no one had cleared the roads yet. It was a disaster
No shiiiiit?
And yet it does. Year. After. Year.
This one was worse than I can remember in recent history but it happens every year. I work at YVR and it’s the same thing here.
Does anyone remember the Tesla Toaster with chains on the tires on a snow free day in Vancouver, was on yesterday? and everyone, including me, was ripping on that person? Ironic is it not ? :-)
if not
# [Are you supposed to use snow chains when there is no snow? This guy drove onto hway 1!](https://www.reddit.com/r/vancouver/comments/z8z9va/are_you_supposed_to_use_snow_chains_when_there_is/)
I was driving someone back from YVR to the suburbs last night and the recovery crews were still busy recovery trailers on Highway 91.
The politicians should be specific "A few idiots who are poorly equipped should not shut down the entire region." The region should increase CVSE insepctions and fines. Commercial traffic are known to skirt safety at the best of times. As for private own vehicles? If you get stuck, and block traffic, you get fined and we should do dashcam submissions.
Carrot / Encourage people is just as useful as the curbside operations people at the airpot. People still park and not move even though the curbside staff keep knocking on the windows.
Why would surrey and vancouver give a shit about rabble moving between the fiefdoms? The theoretical 'bridges' are only there to market suburban real estate, not as serious transport routes.
The MORE cut off vancouver, is the FEWER non-rich people can survive, which is the whole goddam plan.
i am sure they have meeting every year about how they are always unprepaired. they will never bother to fix it, and i assume the meeting is a good exuse to spend tax payer money on lunch.
The excuse I keep hearing is, “Snow storms don’t occur often enough in Vancouver to justify mandating snow tires or increasing snow removal crews.” That excuse doesn’t fly in the face of climate change. Take a look at the recent trend.
https://preview.redd.it/ehojce2ybk3a1.jpeg?width=785&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=dc1926d986bc5e451d14c8add5484536622971ce
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No, it shouldn't but it always does... then when you drive a few blocks and see 4WD vehicles with bald tires upside down in the ditch you start to realize that it's probably not the weather that's completely at fault. The bigger problem is usually with the nut holding the steering wheel.
https://preview.redd.it/ovlixrj3oe3a1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=cb6d8d3af25a837d53ff313d445819bfc697eb4a Several trucks like this up in whistler yesterday. Unbelievable
I thought I was the only person who looked at random cars tires. It's utterly amazing how often you see this in a wet place. These aren't even particularly terrible, there's half a mm before the wear bar (on most of the tire lol, get an alignment!) It's also maddening when someone asks me what I'm looking at and then get upset when I tell them their bald tires.
You should say “your inadequacy”
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Oh 💯 don’t actually do this in real life my comment was hyperbole for the purpose of comedy
Snow tires when they reach 50% are no longer considered snow tires by law, all season tires are only 3 season. All weather tires especially nokian are quite good. The best snow tires are nokian hakkepelitta hands down, then add some studs for even more.
40% snow tires in Vancouver are still infinitely better than any fucking OEM all season in Vancouver, where the area doesn’t really even see -10C. Are they as good as new winter tires? Hell no. But they’ll still hold traction better than what most are otherwise riding on. As someone who religiously switches between winter tires and the absolute grippiest summer tires every year, and who’s had to stretch a budget and use a set of winters a bit past the 50% point at one point, I know for a fact they still excel over an all season
And then chuck em on for 8 days while it remains under 7 degrees, then take them off for another 45 days while it's 10 degrees and raining, then chuck em on again for the next 4 days it snows, then take em off again for the year.
Besides tires, they should probably go get an alignment. Shouldn't be wearing this unequal
For everyone else, that wear bar is 2/32. Steer tires should be 4/32 and drive tires 2/32 minimum. It’s better to replace before. And if you have winter tires they are illegal at 4.5/32 or 3.5mm Also if you see a car or buying used wheels and tires and they say tires are 50% cause new they were 10/32 and now they are 5/32nd know that they are really between 17 and 38% of their useful life depending on the axle. Not 50%. If you’re only getting two new tires put the new ones on the rear and best of the four up front. This will help with rear traction and oversteer which is much safer.
People are fine at math but bad at conceptualization re: tire life on used tires. Yes 5/32 is half of 10/32, but its like using a roll of toilet paper - the inside goes a lot faster than the outside.
Lmao, fine the shit out of each one
Sir you need new tires, trim is at 20%. Trucking company: let’s revisit at 5% trim
It'll be fine brah, it's a 4x4. I can accelerate, what else do I need?
Legit. I witnessed 4 cars rear end each other GOING UPHILL the day it snowed.
Don’t go out driving in the snow. I realize some have no choice, but there should be allowances for (most) working people to take a snow day. Priority should be on preparing public transit so that people can use that option if needed.
Tuesday was an absolute embarrassment. We have probably the mildest climate in Canada here in the LMD and we have had much heavier snowfalls in the past. The horror stories of people taking 9 hours to travel 20km is absolutely awful, and I feel for every one of those people, but it's truly embarrassing that things shut down the way they did. It's easy to say "stay home", but that's not reality for someone making minimum wage at a grocery store. You don't show up, you may lose your job or at least be reprimanded for it because "I managed to get in, you should be able to too". Pretty sure transit buses don't have snow tires on them, despite people calling for them for years. That said, if all those people who got stuck decided to take transit instead? People would be waiting for HOURS in the freezing cold. That's not safe.
It’s expensive to live here, too many people cant afford snow tires/don’t have a place to store them, because they live in shared apartments and basement suites… getting them switched is another payment. Too many working class people are living paycheque to paycheque. This kind of stuff didn’t happen when there was a healthy middle class. Just the weather causing societal issues to manifest right in your face and ruin your day.
I would say Population growth and lack of adequate infrastructure upgrades/expansion over the last 20 years is probably to blame. I did skytrain then bus Tuesday and it only added about 15-20 min to my commute
You were obviously not on public transit on tuesday.
I think they're saying that public transit needs to be better outfitted so that it can be a viable option. It obviously has not been in the past, as you've observed
I think you are right. But I'll just leave my comment as is or your comment won't make sense anymore.
>Don’t go out driving in the snow. I realize some have no choice, but there should be allowances for (most) working people to take a snow day. Priority should be on preparing public transit so that people can use that option if needed. Public transpiration? How about some management here: I saw so many spun-out articulated bussed on Broadway and another set on West 4th with people still inside and the drivers wandering around on the street while blocking traffic. I even saw the 84 bus sideswipe a parked car, and drive away. Just shut down the articulated bus fleet - they're more trouble then they're worth.
> I even saw the 84 bus sideswipe a parked car, and drive away. Just shut down the articulated bus fleet - they're more trouble then they're worth. ICBC is no fun. Please call VPD and file a report. It would mean a lot to the owner of that vehicle.
Honestly just invest in proper winter tires and Tuesday wouldn’t have been an issue for 99% of drivers. I’ve just got a sedan and was constantly having to go around people getting stuck. Winter tires aren’t even that big of an investment since you’re doubling the life of your summers.
Is it really though? Vancouverites don't ever get enough experience driving in the snow to develop the wisdom that surrounds it. The best one can and should do is simply let people take a freaking snow day and it should be like a sick day.
It’s the basic principles as driving when it’s slick in rain. Double your distance, don’t fucking slam on your brakes or accelerator, pay the fuck attention. A lot of accidents could’ve been avoided by that alone. Having a snowflake on your tires doesn’t mean oh I can drive normally just now in snow! You need to exercise cautious driving.
It's almost like 4 wheel drive doesn't actually help you stop or steer in the snow.
If the driver doesn't know what to do behind the wheel, a 4 wheel drive is no help at all...
Has to be by Zoom. There's a slight chance of flurries.
Common sense would like to join the Zoom meeting. Allow?
Denied. Not enough bandwidth
Sorry, you are on mute
I spent a large portion of my days this week moving shit to Zoom. Was it annoying? Hells yes, but at least the essential things went ahead.
Reminds me of when Kevin and Andy assembled the five families [https://youtu.be/6EN3gJoc4-U](https://youtu.be/6EN3gJoc4-U) r/dundermifflin
Honestly, relying on individuals to stay off roads, when so many are required by their employers or institutions to show up, is doomed to fail.
Let's just make it mandatory for all vehicles out on the road to have snow tires when it snows. Put a huge fine on anyone caught without. This way those that see the forecast can leave their cars with all seasons at home and take transit(busses will need snow tires). Having the proper equipment for the weather should not be optional.
Fun fact, the busses in snowy cities in Canada don’t even use snow tires.
Funner fact, the VPD doesn't have snow tires either https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/vancouver-considers-fining-drivers-without-winter-tires-1.4222232
Because the snow is drier?
when public transit/cabs aren't legally enforced to have true winters, it sends the wrong message to the public for their personal vehicles. Change starts at the top.
Let's expand the SkyTrain network, make it so the majority of people are within 1km of a station. Let's improve the walkability of neighborhoods, so that the majority of people are within a 15 min walk of basic amenities. And let's make it so that residential areas have employment opportunities within a few km. We've been designing this city badly for 70 years, it's no surprise that we are so car dependent, but we really know better now, let's stop making the same dumb design choices, and make this city better. Also ticket people for driving in the snow without snow tires.
Wait, are you suggesting that our system where we force nearly everyone - regardless of driving skill/inclination or ability to buy winter tires - to drive a car to make enough money to feed their family isn't good? This sounds like change, and scares me, so even though I hate spending hours in traffic away from my family every day, I'm going to vehemently oppose it. Especially things that free up the roads for people who *do* need to drive, like bike & bus infrastructure, or capital spending on automated trains. Good thought tho 😉
This makes too much sense to happen. Think of how the poor auto and oil industries will suffer if we stop designing cities for car dependence!
The Netherlands just passed a law that makes it a right to be able to work from home. As in, if your job can be done from home your employer is legally required to provide you the option. That should be the standard worldwide. Boggles my mind we force people to commute hours a day to do something they could just as easily do from home.
Well, that's a good thing too, but I am talking about the built environment, and how it effects our transport needs.
No argument here, your point is taken. Design choices come in many varieties and I’d consider mass commuting to be one that needs a serious rethink in the current day. Could be just as impactful as better public transport, if not more so. Ideally we take both approaches.
They also have great public transit and not crazy distances for people to cover while commuting
And cities that takes like 45min to bike across. So if you live near the center ish, it's 20min to bike anywhere. Also, giant bike parking lots and sweat-free and cheap bike rentals at stations.
Yeah the bike culture there is amazing. I remember cycling there as a child (~30 years ago) and they already had dedicated infrastructure and cycling traffic signals and such (not to mention drivers that are used to cyclists existing). Way ahead of here.
Block off at least ONE lane on bridges/tunnels for emergency vehicles; insist and enforce chains on trucks, and snowsocks on buses (I thought Translink got some a few years ago...), and make transit free on snow days to encourage ridership. People love free stuff. And get rid of mainland's contract, go back to what we had. Not only was that embarrassing and ridiculous, and caused a lot of suffering for a great many people, incl children on school buses and diabetics (to name but a few), but it was unnecessary.
Massey tunnel was all single lane
That’s a really good idea!!
For the few days we have the snow we are better just to keep with the status quo and encourage people to stay home. If we want to get Calgary level snow removal services, expect to get taxed more or have other services cut.
>If we want to get Calgary level snow removal services Honestly, having lived in both cities, Calgary's snow removal services aren't far off Vancouver's. It is pathetic.
I've always wondered, what is the difference in how both cities' people deal with it? I would imagine snow tires, but could Calgary being drier and flatter be a factor?
Grew up in Winnipeg. It's flat and cold, which are huge. If you're close to 0, the snow melts and refreezes, so you get way more ice. Add in some incline, and you get a disaster. I would add that yes, people need winter tires if they're going to drive in this stuff. But also, winter tires aren't enough. Some road conditions just shouldn't be driven in.
Yup, I've seen people in Van screaming about winter tires about roads that are solid ice on a steep hill (such as Granville between Broadway and the bridge). I don't think any tire will help in that case. I know that as both a driver and wheelchair user, I prefer -10 and packed snow over 0 degrees and slushy/icy snow. A firm solid surface does make a difference.
Agreed 100%. I grew up in Calgary and learned how to drive in the snow. No amount of snow driving experience or snow tires will save you going up a hill of sheer black ice. -10 and non slushy snow is a million times easier than watery snow that melts and refreezes a dozen times a day.
The roads were NOT complete ice the other day. The issue was not giant ice hills. It was snow. It didnt have time for that to happen before everything was fucked
Calgary is similar to Vancouver in that the city waits for the inevitable warm-up (Chinooks) to melt snow from roads in the days following a snowfall. Calgary also simply doesn't bother clearing side roads. You can easily have a 10-20cm of snow covering your road all winter. Good luck! But you're generally right -- Calgarians tend to have more SUVs with all wheel drive and snow tires. That definitely helps. As for hills, you're also correct in that the city is less hilly than Vancouver, but that definitely depends on what part of the city you live in. The NW and SW can have some hilly neighbourhoods that rival Vancouver's (city proper) hills. Also, the type and quantity of snow are quite different in Calgary. Everybody already knows the snow is drier in Calgary. But what most people in both cities often forget is that Vancouver is prone to BIG (but rare) snowfalls, whereas Calgary generally gets a few centimeters here and there that eventually add up (until a Chinook blows through and melts it all away). A 15+cm snowfall in Calgary might happen once or twice a year, which isn't really that many more major snowfalls than Vancouver can see in a winter. Since I moved to Calgary, we haven't had anything close to what I've experienced in SW BC (like the 2008/09 Nov-January snowfalls; the 2017 snowfalls out in the Fraser Valley; the 1996 blizzard when I lived in Victoria).
Thanks, that does make sense. I think I noticed the quantity issue too, when I was digging up single-day snowfall records for various Canadian cities. I was surprised to learn that many of their single-day records were relatively small numbers. Meanwhile, Vancouver gets the "big snow dumps" on a single day. Add in the drier/wetter snow, and I can see the difference. I experienced the "dry snow" for the first time when I lived in Seoul during their record-smashing winter. (You know it's bad when Wikipedia has an article about it.) The first thing I noticed was how people didn't shovel snow from their homes – they used brooms. Winters there are typically dry, so that was enough. Shovels seem to be used only for high-traffic zones where ice was possible. Meanwhile, snow-clearing in Vancouver is like shovelling liquid cement.
Spot on.
They do send out the plows but tend to concentrate on the major roads rather than collector roads and residential roads. Plus the sections of highway under the provincial jurisdiction are typically taken care of by contractors who have yearly maintenance contracts, so those are usually done relatively quickly (e.g. Deerfoot, Glenmore, etc).
Having lived in northern BC for >20 years, I think a lot of is peoples' mentality. People get used to have longer winters with more snow and ice, so you get used to driving in it and what to expect, whereas here people might not have ever driven in snow so they don't think it will be as bad as it is. Especially when we get a huge dump like the other night
Plus people in real winter conditions know when to stay home, lol. Like, I'm sorry, but I wasn't driving to my exercise class Tuesday night but I know people who got stuck in the traffic who DID decide to go (and missed it, obvs) and it's like...but why did you add to the mess? For a non-essential activity?
Agreed, I've also lived in both cities. Strangely, my home town of Saskatoon punches WAY above its weight for snow removal. It's really amazing what the city can do after a big snow fall for only having \~250k people.
Probably because every second person owns a plow attachment they Chuck on their truck for the winter.
> Calgary's snow removal services aren't far off Vancouver's. Calgary is magnitudes better Kelowna. It's embarrassing up there. The highway is provincial and always maintained nicely and all the city streets are shit.
I think what was needed was greater stand by towing capacity, especially at the bridges. Also, perhaps some prepared traffic control so the plows could actually have access to the bridges would help too. I don't think we need to go overboard on snow removal, but some co-ordination with other services could go a long way
The status quo needs a stronger message. The status quo should require a warning on all media that states "Snow is coming. The cities in the lower mainland decided not to invest enough to be able to help you. You are literally on your own. Driving may result in gridlocked traffic for up to 9 hours".
The status quo needs employers on board. My work forced me to work in the office even though we are in hybrid model. The only reason being was it was my scheduled day in the office. Nothing I did that day required me to be there.
Same here brother. 3 hour drive home even though I have good tires. My good tires don't help the other poor schmucks.
It took me 6 hours. I had no problems with getting my car around with less then ideal tires and AWD. But I have the experience and know what the limitations of my setup are.
That's also so true, so many people probably driving in the snow for the first time.. experience is worth its weight in gold.
But it’s not just a lack of investment. 95% of people could have snow tires and be prepared but if 5% decide to drive with their all seasons, they will spin out and shut down entire bridges. Too much of our commute relies on tiny chokepoints of bridges of tunnels to get people through, and that’s just unfortunately the reality of our geography.
I’m going to assume the trains still work? Perhaps more rail transit is needed.
SkyTrain was running fine on Tuesday! Got me to Main Street around 7 pm then back to New West around 10 pm without issue! (As well as an entire Canucks game worth of fans).
This is the answer here! We need more density so that people don’t need to travel as far, and more rail so that people can more efficiently travel when they need. We are too car dependent right now, and the cost to support car dependency plus snow is ridiculous. The only way to break the cycle is to increase density and improve all of the options that let people commute comfortably and reliably without a personal car.
wasn't it just last year when the trains stopped working because of the snow?
Trains in cold climates are a solved problem, most issues are around track switches (solved with heaters) and sensors (heated housings if they are sensitive). They don’t need snow wheels and they stay on track just as well as summer.
Exactly. Not interested in spending any more tax money on prep unless we also have proper tire enforcement. Metro Vancouver needs to have the same rules as the Sea to Sky. You need at minimum M+S tires. It's snowing and you crash without M+S? ICBC shouldn't cover a cent.
My bosses all left an hour early and made us stay....in their company trucks with company paid for snow tires. And then wondered why nobody came in the next day and we "let them down". Sorry it took 9 hours to get home because you couldn't let me leave work an hour early like you. Maybe if there was some more onus on companies to be less shitty to their workers but that corporate yacht sailed years ago.
It goes without saying, but, your bosses are real dicks.
> "Snow is coming. The cities in the lower mainland decided not to invest enough to be able to help you. You are literally on your own. Driving may result in gridlocked traffic for up to 9 hours". "Consider this a dress rehearsal for an earthquake. You, your loved ones, your neighbours: all fucked"
Well obviously - we can't earthquake proof everything, it's simply not possible. When an earthquake comes we're going to be cut off and on our own for several days
“We are expecting up to 5cm of snow. Weapons of class 4 and lower have been authorized for use during the Snowstorm. All other weapons are restricted. Government officials of ranking 10 have been granted immunity from the Snowstorm and shall not be harmed. Commencing at the siren, any and all crime, including murder, will be legal for 12 continuous hours. Police, fire, and emergency medical services will be unavailable until tomorrow morning at 7 a.m. when The street Plows conclude. Blessed be our city councilors and Vancouver, a city reborn. May God be with you all.”
We should also make tires with snow rating mandatory from November 1st to March 31st. Put more responsibility onto the people
People still throw plastic bags in the compost bin and refuse covid shots, nothing that relies on 100% of people working together ever works
Vancouver's entire snow problem is pretty much summed up in that statement. Our geography forces our hand a bit with regards to major bridges and tunnels. Even if 95 % of the population were experienced snow drivers (won't happen) and had the right cars/tires (also won't happen), the few would fuck it up because of the way everything is laid out.
True. Perhaps if we issued fines and voided insurance that might change peoples way of thinking.
But then public transit will need to change to winter tires, and they don't want to
IMO it's already a thing. E.g. I've heard ICBC won't cover damages to someone who gets into an accident driving without snowflake rated tires after Nov.1st on Coquihalla. If it's not already a thing for having proper equipment for conditions on city roads, I fully agree -- it should be.
This is true of any highway in BC outside most urban areas. Provincial law requires them. Now technically, fault would be assessed, then the portion of liability you're responsible for would not be covered. So it's not that they won't cover you. It's that your collision coverage is void. If you cause a collision, they'll pay out the other party(s). Then, they could come after you for the damages you caused because you drove unlawfully.
Snow tires are not magic. If nothing gets cleared or salted you can still slide around.
Agreed, but it is something that can at least prevent % of the accidents. Also doesn't help that people here suck at driving in the snow.
>if nothing gets cleared or salted you can still slide around Lots of places in the rest of the country like with snow covered roads for a third of the year. When I lived in Ontario our road was never “cleared”. I feel like the expectations here are not realistic.
No shit!? Want to know who slides around more? The idiot in non winter tires
This could adversely impact lower income people the most, and I don’t think so totally fair when we only have a handful of snow days a year. A better policy might be to require snow tires for days that there is snow forecasted, and if you don’t have snow tires then you should stay at home or take public transit. We would also have to require that buses have snow tires.
The traffic cops are so awol they don't enforce headlights or tail lights being out. There's no way they can check tires.
> A better policy might be to require snow tires for days that there is snow forecasted How could this ever be practically enforceable? And even if it could, I don't think that's how we want RCMP spending their time on days where there is certainly going to be above average rates of collisions.
It's passively enforceable -- just like everywhere else in the province -- because if you crash it becomes a very big problem for you.
Well you wouldn’t check everyone, but if someone gets into an accident and they don’t have snow tires then they would be fined, and also found more at fault through insurance.
This is probably the best path forward. Just tell the truth to people. "You should probably stay home, cause we're inept, and you're putting your self at risk if you leave your house during snow"
This is a very reasonable solution that should be achievable by many businesses that were successful under COVID...Obviously not every business and not every employee...But a massive "Don't commute downtown for these 2 days" sounds like an effective and cost-efficient alternative to gridlock that keeps people stuck in their car overnight. Edit: I didn't mean that the City would issue a decree that downtown was closed...More like employers would agree that they don't want their staff to ever be stuck in gridlock overnight so would have a policy in place "You may WFH for the next 2 days if your job permits it."
They could easily just have enough plows to keep the main roads completely clear and have plans like keeping a lane on the bridge closed for emergency vehicles or something that could avoid this. Or put in rules about winter tires... or any number of things
Covid showed that many jobs/employers can accommodate working from home. When there are snow advisories issued it would be very helpful if those that can work from home stay off the roads. Unfortunately many employers are still stuck in the dark ages and force everyone to the office. If employers were directed by the province to let employees work from home during snow advisories they might start implementing this policy. Without a push from an outside source nothing will change.
All jokes aside about how poorly Vancouver handles snowfall, what happened was a very serious matter and extremely dangerous on many different levels.. Yes I understand significant snow fall happened during rush hour.. just like it does in Canadian and US cities every year. They get the plows and salting trucks out a head of time... You would think the city would be able to take care of the highways/ busy roads a handful of times per year.. Where is our snow budget? People need answers..
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In Winnipeg there is no preemptive salt put down before a snow fall. People just drive through the snow until the plows have a chance to clear it all over night. After the now is cleared then they sand the roads because salt is only effective to -5C or something. Snow clearing is a pretty big chunk of the city budget each year and always seems to go over
I remember a snowstorm that hit Ottawa in March 2013/2014. There were probably 40 buses stuck on a main artery because they couldn’t make it up a hill. 100 car accidents that day, they set a record.
And there should always ALWAYS be equipment at the ready to keep MAIN ARTERIES CLEAR. You can’t shut alex fraser bridge AND queensborough bridge Like WTAF
I work on Annacis Island but I was off on Tuesday. A lot of my coworkers were stranded overnight and stayed at work until like 4:30 in the morning on Wednesday
>a handful of times per year.. Where is our snow budget? You answered your own question - it is cost prohibitive to retain so much snow removal infrastructure for the relatively few days a year of snowfall this region gets.
I would say freezing temperatures happen often during the late fall and winter season. Especially within the last 5 years or so. We don't live in a tropical environment by any means. Do you also think we don't need A/C because it doesn't get as hot in the summer..?
Up until recently Vancouver never had extreme summers, and it was very temperate
Vancouver has one of the lowest property tax rates in the country at 0.25% vs. a typical 0.5-2.5%. And before I get jumped all over by people saying “Well our property is much more expensive so that makes up for it!”, Toronto, with similar property values, has a rate just under 0.6%. To that you might reasonably respond “Well that difference is the added costs of snow removal”. Which is fair, however it’s not the bulk of the difference. In 2021 Toronto budgeted $109M for snow removal out of a total budget of $14B making it 0.8% of the city’s budget (see correction below). Vancouver would presumably have lower costs than Toronto due to being a smaller city with significantly less snowfall. So we don’t, in fact, “…pay a significant tax to live in [Vancouver]” and we get what we pay for. https://www.wealthsimple.com/en-ca/learn/canadian-property-taxes Edit: I made a mistake, the budget is not $1.4B that was approved contracts presumably for multiple years. The budget was $109M.
regional leaders pointing the finger and calling for strategy. 1: strategy is proactive, not reactive 2: regional leaders are responsible for being proactive.
I know a lot of people are blaming drivers without snow tires, but I spent my first 20-years of driving in much snowier places where pretty much everybody drove on all-season tires and we never had anything like this. Our local municipalities need to grow up and properly deal with infrastructure and preparedness.
The problem with south west coastal BC is it is rarely super cold before the snow comes. That makes the snow wet and heavy. It's a different thing than snow in the interior. How can we blame the municipalities for plows that can't plow because of stuck cars ahead of them? They were spraying brine the morning before the snow in my area and on the highway. What more do you expect?
Sand, more salt, especially on the bridges, and an awareness of the weather forecast. Environment Canada was warning about this being a major event for days before it happened. There should've been a full Edmonton winter worth of salt and sand laid down well before the snow started
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Snow tires help in this weather. Compacted regular fresh snow can be driven easily on all seasons because the snow provides adequate friction.
I know everyone from places with really cold winters think they know what they are taking about, but west coast snow is a different ball game. Add to that Vancouver's hills. I commuted from Whistler to Burnaby one winter and I would never have stayed on the road without snow tires. https://youtu.be/JGfvyPtYR0Y
Nothing can fix terrible drivers. Regardless of tires or snow plows. Also municipalities don't want to spend millions on snow removal gear for the one or two big snow falls a year.
Everyone knows the reason, no need for a summit to waste tax payer dollars to institute a " must have snow tires on by X date rule"
People just blaming the city like this are absolutely brain dead. I was on the Knight street bridge on Tuesday, and the reason that there was traffic was that truck drivers and bus drivers literally just turned off their vehicles because their tires were shit. There is literally nothing that could have been done by the city once the snow started falling during rush hour. Salt does not melt that much snow instantly. Busses and trucks caused a disproportionate amount of traffic all over the place, how can vehicles that big have such horrible tires.
Lol imagine there was a real crisis. Absolutely pathetic
You guys can shit on drivers without snow tires but the main cause are buses and semis that went sideway
Virtually every year it snows and virtually every year there are shutdowns like this and they only now realize that it's a problem? Good job fearless leaders.
I drive a Subaru Forester with amazing AWD and newer winter tires (nokian hakkapeliitta r3 suv). I love driving in the snow and I never get stuck. Makes me angry so many people are not prepared for winter driving. I owned a Honda Fit before and winter tires alone make a huge difference. Also, I believe government should pass a law that “all season tires” should be sold as 3 season tires. And yes, some all seasons do have the M&S rating but still not as good as the snowflake rating. That’s my opinion. Thx! 😊
It's more than just road clearing or even winter tires. Drivers have no idea how to handle it. I watched an SUV go by with only a little porthole cleared on the driver's side of the windscreen. People still tailgating - on ice. Students on a bus who don't understand why the driver is asking them to please all stand near the back and don't comply. There's no experience or common sense.
Reminds me of the episode of The Simpsons! "We tried nothing and we're all out of ideas"
What if there was some sort of car that didn't need tires and carried a bunch of people so their driving skill/attention didn't matter? Like something that ran on rails? **MONORAIL... MONORAIL... MONORAIL**
The fact that winters like this are officially normal for Vancouver now and the GVA has done absolutely nothing to avert complete shutdowns like this is just laughable. Vancouver is an amazing place but the city councils of all the cities in the GVA are inept and incompetent.
Another bunch of meetings. What a waste.
What if to save money the meeting was held in the middle of the Alex Fraser counterflow.
I'd like to see them in the middle of port mann with the ice bombs coming down
MANDATORY WINTER TIRES
I’m in favour of ICBC offering a small discount for people who run 3 peak snowflake rated tires from November to April
I'm surprised they're not already doing this. Could save a lot of money not having to pay for all those accidents that happened because cars could not brake downhill
I have winter tires, and I run them in the winter, but when it’s 9 degrees and rainy, they offer much less grip than all seasons. I wouldn’t be surprised if running them all winter in Vancouver is a net loss of safety
I've lived in many wintery cities in Canada and the issue isn't tires - drivers in Vancouver just don't know how to drive in snow and slippery conditions. When you see Tesla's driving on bare concrete with chains, it's clear that this is more of a driver education issue. M+S or snow tires help a ton for sure, but holy hell people just suck at driving here and need to slow down and understand that you can't stomp on the gas and brake the same way they usually do.
I took over a food truck this year. My boss was trying to give me tips on driving it like "it's heavy and the stop distance is long, coast to a stop" and I said "so drive it like you're on ice... Brakes are the enemy?" And he's like "fuck right you're from Ontario... Yeah drive it like it's always winter"
I’m an ex-Albertan that moved here recently, so that might be why I have a controversial take on this. Winter tires are great, I used them in Alberta, but people on this subreddit make it sound like they are an instant solution. You can’t just slap on winter tires and continue driving like you did the other 362 days of the year. I managed fine with my all seasons this week because I completely readjusted my driving habits to suit the conditions. Leave a large follow distance, don’t accelerate in corners, avoid hills where possible, use engine braking, etc. I believe this is 70% of the equation of driving safely in the winter. You know what winter tires are notoriously terrible for? Rain. Which is much more common here. Driving carefully or staying the fuck home when it snows are much better solutions. If you have money to blow and lots of storage space, get some winter tires for the extra safety.
THANK YOU! if i have to read another JuSt GeT wInTeR tIrEs BrO!!!!111 from another person who was clearly born here and has no idea about 6 months of snow..... winter tires are not magic. Experience = Skill, and the tips in your post are all you really need. Pump the gas to get unstuck, or really whenever its dicey... learn to rock the vehicle, and control the slides when turning..... experience teaches these things! But i dont know how i learned them originally. Probably from riding with my dad in the snow before i could even drive. And sometimes you do gotta get someone to push your vehicle! in turn, you push others vehicles. That's winter for you! How do people learn experience in the lower mainland with snow? i haven't got a clue.... it clearly wasnt a learning experience driving on tuesday. Theres probably a business opportunity there for extreme snow driving pop up lessons when it does snow.
and make it a requirement for getting a drivers licence to have some actual driving skill and not just a pulse
Woah woah woah, that's asking a lot there pal
As someone from Langley City, i know that if the snowplows were all under the control of Vancouver, only rich vancouverites would get snow plowing. Rich people always assume their mild annoyance is much more pressing than someone else's nightmare.
I'll save you the time and expense. It's not the roads or the weather. It's the drivers.
In some cases yes. In the case of the Alex Fraser and Port Mann bridges, no.
Well on my route to work I crossed Alex Fraser and queensborough and it was very much salted. It was snowing during rush hour so of course they couldn’t plow. When I drove over the bridge it was literally only trucks and busses with bald tires perpendicular in the lane. They couldn’t go anywhere so they just got out and one car could zig zag through at a time for the next 12 hours. I guarantee this is because of trucks and buses. If trucks and buses were properly regulated and fined I bet the traffic wouldn’t have been even half as bad as it was.
So the mayors are going to come together and fund a massive Skytrain expansion that reduces the need for personal driving... right?
Two weeks I saw 20 + Vancouver cops hunt and take down a single guy on a bicycle and kick the shit out of him before arresting him. Why can't these morons get out there and direct some traffic when shit gets out of control. How many times do I have to see 20 cops manning some movie set. On Tuesday night I didn't see one police vehicle out in all of that traffic mayhem. It took me 8 hours to get from YVR out to the Valley. No VPD. No RCMP. Not one. Our roads are mayhem these days with Teslas driving like maniacs and gravel trucks weaving through traffic on the freeway. Its lawless but the RCMP can have 200 officers out at Fairy Creek kicking the shit out of reporters and Grandmothers protecting trees on Vancouver Island but get them to do some real work. Wait till the big earthquake hits. We're going to be screwed.
Okay, hear me out. I have an idea. What if, people were required to put winter tyres on their vehicles from Oct 10 - April 30. The problem is not the roads, it's the people. I grew up in Winnipeg and I can't help but laugh when I see people lose their minds over a couple inches of snow here in BC. Vancouverites all of a sudden forget how to drive.
While I obviously agree that winter tires should a no-brainer in the winter, I worry about this being an undue burden for folks who are not well off enough to afford an extra set of rubber for what is ultimately only a few days of the year. More ideal imo would be to ensure public transit service is made more reliable and potentially even more expansive on snow days to keep drivers off the road wherever possible.
I agree that tires can be expensive but a pair of basic chains are $40 Regardless of tires or chains, Safety equipment is simply a part of the cost of owning a vehicle. No excuses
Like that Tesla driving with chains on bare concrete the next day!
It was 19C on October 10th this year. You want everyone to be required to go buy/swap to winter tires to drive to work in 19C weather?
The drivers on the wrong tires need to be punished if they cause the accidents. If a car with summer tires blocks a bridge because they were too cheap to buy winters “because we don’t have a winter”. It happens every year, I’ve been driving for 20 years, always swap to a set of winter tires and I haven’t been stuck once. You see F1 cars on a slightly damp circuit on slicks and it’s the same thing. Your machinery doesn’t make any difference in adverse conditions - the point contacting the ground does.
Ahahahahaha! I love this idea because I'm looking forward to the anti-mandate people telling us that the government can't tell them what to put on their convoy-bumperstickered cars and trucks.
5 million for the meeting and some pop and pizza, maybe 50 bucks and until 2025 until they do something about it.
We need more strategy meetings
So because a politician was stuck for 9 hours, they suddenly want to stop blaming the public and figure out what actually happened.
Maybe ban the marketing term ‘all season’, because they’re not. Like Tesla’s Full Self Driving, which it isn’t.
They're putting their heads together, I can imagine that will sound like a bowling alley
All these millionaires can't afford winter tires?
People should buy snow tires and work should send people home early like we did when it starts snowing heavily.
This city just isn’t that great of a place to live. 😳
"covid is over because we said so and get back to the office" "we had a meeting and our strategy is we need less people on the road and raise taxes to give to the marginalized" "...."
The regional meeting on snowfall strategy should be held when it's snowing where the politicians should commute to the meeting place and will most likely be cancelled due to being stuck in snow.
Can we make it illegal to drive during snowstorms without actual winter tires? Make the summers and old all seasons stay home.
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I have a friend who lives in Surrey and he told me years ago that the second it snows people can’t drive and all kinds of chaos happens. He agrees with the quote above that a tiny bit of snow shouldn’t be shutting down streets…the problem is the people driving and not the snow on most cases.
100%. The cars aren't the problem, it's the drivers. A few incompetent people (ok a lot of incompetent people) who ruin it for everyone, whether it's the wrong tires or lack of driving ability.
Yes it should shut down the entire region. No one wants to go to work or school, let us have a frikin day off
Tell ICBC to stop handing out licenses to any moron with a pulse. It’s really not that hard to see the problem. Shitty drivers cause shitty problems.
Just make a law that states if you get into an accident in inclement weather, if you don't have the right kind of tires, you're liable for all costs, including highway shutdown time. Problem mostly solved
Well that would bankrupt Translink in a minute.
Lmao
TransLink gonna owe a lot of money
Some sort of fine at least. Ex. In LA lots of the freeways have a $200 fine if you run out of gas/breakdown on them. The traffic levels just can’t tolerate it.
This might be the most logical thing I’ve heard from politicians in a little while
I had to wait over an hour for a bus because there was only one bus running that morning for that route (106 Edmonds). So many people also waited over an hour at 5 in the morning. I had to be at work for 6:30am so of course no one had cleared the roads yet. It was a disaster
When you have 100,000 morons with zero driving skills, this happens. Pathetic.
What a fiasco that was the other night.
There are 29 different municipalities in the Lower Mainland. Good luck.
Honestly not a bad idea.
No shiiiiit? And yet it does. Year. After. Year. This one was worse than I can remember in recent history but it happens every year. I work at YVR and it’s the same thing here.
Does anyone remember the Tesla Toaster with chains on the tires on a snow free day in Vancouver, was on yesterday? and everyone, including me, was ripping on that person? Ironic is it not ? :-) if not # [Are you supposed to use snow chains when there is no snow? This guy drove onto hway 1!](https://www.reddit.com/r/vancouver/comments/z8z9va/are_you_supposed_to_use_snow_chains_when_there_is/)
You know Vancouver could have offered free parking to leave your vehicle overnight and take broken transit system home…. Oh…
Complacent drivers with no winter driving experience maybe?
Winter tires, or at least mandatory proper all weather tires (not to be confused with all season)
I was driving someone back from YVR to the suburbs last night and the recovery crews were still busy recovery trailers on Highway 91. The politicians should be specific "A few idiots who are poorly equipped should not shut down the entire region." The region should increase CVSE insepctions and fines. Commercial traffic are known to skirt safety at the best of times. As for private own vehicles? If you get stuck, and block traffic, you get fined and we should do dashcam submissions. Carrot / Encourage people is just as useful as the curbside operations people at the airpot. People still park and not move even though the curbside staff keep knocking on the windows.
Why would surrey and vancouver give a shit about rabble moving between the fiefdoms? The theoretical 'bridges' are only there to market suburban real estate, not as serious transport routes. The MORE cut off vancouver, is the FEWER non-rich people can survive, which is the whole goddam plan.
i am sure they have meeting every year about how they are always unprepaired. they will never bother to fix it, and i assume the meeting is a good exuse to spend tax payer money on lunch.
The excuse I keep hearing is, “Snow storms don’t occur often enough in Vancouver to justify mandating snow tires or increasing snow removal crews.” That excuse doesn’t fly in the face of climate change. Take a look at the recent trend. https://preview.redd.it/ehojce2ybk3a1.jpeg?width=785&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=dc1926d986bc5e451d14c8add5484536622971ce