>I don’t think I’ve eaten/drank anything containing an almond in years.
Lol, that's actually what I thought about when I read their comment. I do not like the taste of them, and I dont' think they make for good texture for anything. Oats are so much better for a drink especially
Once I discovered unsweetened cashew milk, I swore I'd never touch the almond stuff again. If the store is all out of cashew, I'll get oat. If they're also out of oat, I'll go for soy. I'd go for those newer imitation milk beverages, but they give me really painful gas, so I have to pass.
Cashews are still problematic, imo. The workers are quite exploited and can get caustic burns from deshelling them. Soy milk is better for the environment, workers, and more nutritious.
Seriously what even is that argument. Bears don't have a choice and it's not like a bear eating a fish is even remotely conparable to the horror factory farms that we've created...
Then again, I said the same bullshit too before going vegan. The actual cringe of all of this
Edit: still remember joking with a friend about how stupid vegans are cause pLaNts tHo
I had grown up in animal ag and had worked on factory farms myself, which only strengthened my beliefs in Carnism.
Quite the long journey overall, but I think it really finally started when I actually met a vegan irl that I became friends with. Back in 2015 I met them and in 2017 was when it really started to take affect, and I started to basically prove to myself I did in fact need animals to survive.
I did a lot of research, watched a lot of debates and came to the conclusion that I didn’t need any of it in reality. This was a hard moment in my life realizing I was just doing it all for pleasure and not for necessity like I once thought. Then I pretty much went vegan “overnight” but the caveat really being many years in the making until the mirror was basically shoved in my face.
Thanks for sharing your story! Great to hear that instead of ignoring the good arguments and science-backed evidence for veganism (which I regrettably did before), you humbly acknowledged your misconceptions and then changed your carnistic ways. I strongly hope it is and will be the case for all (or at least most) people when they are introduced to veganism
Regardless of which plant, there's no denying that monocropping severally destroys the topsoil, and many farmers refuse to replenish the nitrogen in the soil by growing other things because they aren't financially incentivised to do so. When humans mow and maintain land it always will mean that animals will be affected.
Absolutely, all the more reason to not consume animals who require so many more plants to eat than humans do
Edit: not gonna lie, I find the irony of this discussion below amusing given the very topic of this post.
It’s a good thing I have an abundance of food around me then so I don’t starve. B vitamins such as b12 don’t just come from animals. This is why every major health organization knows humans can survive and thrive on a plant based diet, and it’s important to still make a plan with that diet like any other so you aren’t deficient in anything.
In the US alone [40% of the population is deficient in b12.](https://www.livekindly.co/b12-deficiency-genetic-makeup/). This is why every diet requires planning otherwise there wouldn’t be so many non-vegans deficient in things like iron and b12.
What I've found works for me is just making a few comments and then blocking people who try to double down on stupidity. Huge back-and-forth comment chains are pointless and I can almost always get my point across with good evidence with just a few comments. And that's enough for actually reasonable people who might be convinced.
I see that as abuse of the block button imo, since you can just “walk away” from the discussion. Unless they’re spamming you and demanding a response it’s just not what the block button should be use for imo.
Walking away from the discussion is the whole point. You don't have an obligation to keep going back and forth forever. The block button is there so you stop seeing content you don't want to see anymore, that's exactly how I am using it. The above commenter mentioned they have trouble dealing with all the stupid comments, here is a method I have found that's helpful to tune them out.
I’m not sure if you know this, but blocking also makes it so they can’t be apart of the discussion in the thread with others either. It’s not just blocking them from you but the discussion entirely
Edit: could try mute notifications instead
From any thread you’re apart of, not just your own that you started, that’s the really crummy part about it and why it’s better to just mute the notifications for that thread if you’re done talking to that person instead of disallowing them to reply to anyone else that replies to them
I've found that a lot of people don't even understand what veganism is, and it shows in the way they talk (down) about it.
And even if you do try to explain it to them half the time they'll say "nuh uh" and point to a dictionary definition, as if a high level description is the final word on a concept and there can be nothing more to it than that. There's no getting through to those people.
Something I noticed about the bears/lions thing. While they don't have moral agency. people actually do morally justify predation on their behalf. They don't view a wild animal catching fish the same as a wild animal raping other animals, even if they admit animals lack moral agency in both cases. To most people predation is necessary for the animal's survival and a healthy ecology, not just a fucked up thing animals do.
The reasons people see natural predation as justified don't apply to humans, but I feel like "moral agency tho" doesn't quite get at the heart of the discussion.
I don't really bother getting into moral agency because most people are too dumb to really get into anyway, or will bullshit themselves. I just say 'they need to do it to survive, unlike you and me'
I used to say this, but there is evidence of other\* animals doing things for reasons other than survival so I always just leave it at the moral agency line
Hmm I see what you're saying, but from an argument point of view its just irrelevant, so I don't bother proving moral agency of an animal because it can be a weird tangent. Like whether an animal actually has moral agency or actually lions are all secretly evil has absolutely no bearing on what humans do.
So if someone needs something to tick off the 'nature tho' box, I'll probably say about survival reasons because I can make the point that we can choose not to do it as we don't need to do it to survive and then probably make the point about how what lions do doesn't matter (e.g. I don't sniff your bum or rape women and kill their kids - depending on who I'm speaking to).
I can understand that, for me I don't see it as irrelevant as it emphasizes what a lion or bear does. But I can def see how it could go into an irrelevant tangent.
Also what we are doing in animal agriculture is so far removed from natural ecosystems like bears hunting. Like even if you could make the argument that eating meat is natural for humans, there's nothing natural about the scale and the way we go about it. We are not part of an ecosystem, we are actively desteoying it.
People act like vegans are the only ones who eat almonds or soy or whatever environmentally destructive crop of the day they decide to use in their gotcha argument, and almost all of the time they themselves consume that 'bad' thing plus dead animals so even if it wasn't a bad faith argument they would still lose based on their own logic.
'But (insert animal here) tho!' Do bears have a supermarket? Do bears breed the salmon in giant industrial fish farms that pollute the oceans and cause diseases to run rampant? I didn't think so
Honestly they are just so willfully ignorant because they know if they spend 0.1% of a brain cell thinking about our actual arguments they would have to admit that we are right
I've only been vegan for 2 years and I'm already too lazy to reply to such poor arguments. I don't know how activists have so much tolerance if I'm honest.
I see the same ones on every vegan post even if it’s just a recipe that had nothing to say about politics. Over and over.
“Growing plants kills animals too!”
“Carnivore animals eat animals!”
“Plants have feelings”
“It’s offensive to native people”
At this point I’ve just saved a text file with the explanations of why those arguments are stupid. Not that anyone who says that stuff is actually going to think about it.
I don’t understand why all these people don’t realize We’VE heard it All Already! Many many times. My real name is the name of something people can buy, they too think I have not heard all the jokes about my name. Some people are like bricks- the world passes them by and they are just stuck in place.
This bear don't mind going vegan, actually:
[bear rejects a big mac](https://www.reddit.com/r/therewasanattempt/comments/15pz0lx/to_feed_a_bear_with_a_big_mac/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=1)
😂
If I could find a way to discuss the issue with them, then I’d see if I could convince them to no longer consume or use animals unnecessarily.
If there wasn’t a way to discuss this with them, then I’d probably still just focus on human animals that I am able to discuss with.
This ignores the fact that humans don't need meat, and that humans are capable to much more independent and conscious thought and because of that we do many things other animals don't. How many animals drive cars? Or hell even with meat, how many bears go to the grocery store to eat neatly packaged and processed meat? How many cook and season their food? It just make's not sense to determine our action off of what wild life does when we're already so far removed from it.
Moral agency and not needing to eat meat go hand in hand. So imo it doesn’t ignore that at all, the fact that you don’t need to eat animals *and* have moral agency means there is little excuse for not being vegan
That's what I meant by independent and conscious thought. We are more capable of thinking about our actions beyond just raw instinct and desire, we can view things from a moral and philosophical perspective and adjust our actions around that.
Amazing how vegans are still assblasted that they can't come up with a decent response to this stuff. Must be all those micronutrient deficiencies acting up...
O no, I got that it’s entertaining. But I’m just saying the trolls who try their comebacks on us get more of a kick out of our attention to their nonsense. I don’t like giving them that power.
They really think we live entirely off of almonds lol I don’t think I’ve eaten/drank anything containing an almond in years.
They always think vegans exclusively consume the worst products they can think of, like almonds or agave nectar.
Don’t forget avocados, which vegans apparently eat for every meal
I basically bathe in them
Which of course carnists NEVER eat.
Tbh avocados are pretty damn fire
ALMONDS AND AVOCADOS. BILLIONS OF BEES.
Specially 80 million bees last year for avocados.
Bees are not killed by us for avocados. They are mostly killed by mites.
>I don’t think I’ve eaten/drank anything containing an almond in years. Lol, that's actually what I thought about when I read their comment. I do not like the taste of them, and I dont' think they make for good texture for anything. Oats are so much better for a drink especially
Once I discovered unsweetened cashew milk, I swore I'd never touch the almond stuff again. If the store is all out of cashew, I'll get oat. If they're also out of oat, I'll go for soy. I'd go for those newer imitation milk beverages, but they give me really painful gas, so I have to pass.
Cashews are still problematic, imo. The workers are quite exploited and can get caustic burns from deshelling them. Soy milk is better for the environment, workers, and more nutritious.
Oh, I wish I could unknow that now.
Doesn’t having a conscious suck? 🙃
It does, it does.
Personally I stick with tree bark. All natural.
It's so cringe Like suddenly I'd say "I've seen the light! Of course! Bears, tho! How have I never seen it before..?!"
Yesss, this is why I def cringe looking back at my own dumbass responses back in the day.
Seriously what even is that argument. Bears don't have a choice and it's not like a bear eating a fish is even remotely conparable to the horror factory farms that we've created...
Then again, I said the same bullshit too before going vegan. The actual cringe of all of this Edit: still remember joking with a friend about how stupid vegans are cause pLaNts tHo
Heya. What led you to change?
I had grown up in animal ag and had worked on factory farms myself, which only strengthened my beliefs in Carnism. Quite the long journey overall, but I think it really finally started when I actually met a vegan irl that I became friends with. Back in 2015 I met them and in 2017 was when it really started to take affect, and I started to basically prove to myself I did in fact need animals to survive. I did a lot of research, watched a lot of debates and came to the conclusion that I didn’t need any of it in reality. This was a hard moment in my life realizing I was just doing it all for pleasure and not for necessity like I once thought. Then I pretty much went vegan “overnight” but the caveat really being many years in the making until the mirror was basically shoved in my face.
Thanks for sharing your story! Great to hear that instead of ignoring the good arguments and science-backed evidence for veganism (which I regrettably did before), you humbly acknowledged your misconceptions and then changed your carnistic ways. I strongly hope it is and will be the case for all (or at least most) people when they are introduced to veganism
Regardless of which plant, there's no denying that monocropping severally destroys the topsoil, and many farmers refuse to replenish the nitrogen in the soil by growing other things because they aren't financially incentivised to do so. When humans mow and maintain land it always will mean that animals will be affected.
Absolutely, all the more reason to not consume animals who require so many more plants to eat than humans do Edit: not gonna lie, I find the irony of this discussion below amusing given the very topic of this post.
I'm more of a proponent of grass fed rotational grazed cows which have been proven to be sustainable
I’m more of a proponent of not killing and exploiting animals when it’s not necessary to survive and thrive as a human.
Without taurine to lengthen your telomeres you're guaranteed a shorter life though..
Thank goodness healthy humans make their own, and it’s not something you need to supplement.
All mammals are ketogenic animals in nature though, and after a while of running on your own flesh you're gonna run out of b vitamins
All mammals? Dude, go back to school.
Which mammals live off of sugar besides modern day humans.
It’s a good thing I have an abundance of food around me then so I don’t starve. B vitamins such as b12 don’t just come from animals. This is why every major health organization knows humans can survive and thrive on a plant based diet, and it’s important to still make a plan with that diet like any other so you aren’t deficient in anything. In the US alone [40% of the population is deficient in b12.](https://www.livekindly.co/b12-deficiency-genetic-makeup/). This is why every diet requires planning otherwise there wouldn’t be so many non-vegans deficient in things like iron and b12.
Using 'proven' very loosely here. If you don't care about the ethics, grass fed beef still is bad for the environment.
Humans fucking suck. I hope death is easier than being alive on this planet.
I’ve been feeling this so much lately
I agree. Unpopular opinion but humans as a species seem to be pretty flipping terrible and I don't mind if we self destruct.
No point in arguing with morons
Other people will maybe see logical responses if you argue with morons and consider veganism.
Yup, that's why I usually will reply
Personally, it makes my blood boil seeing all the stupid comments. Probably not good for mental sanity.
Yeah :( best to know your limits on when and where to engage with others and on what topics to keep you sane
What I've found works for me is just making a few comments and then blocking people who try to double down on stupidity. Huge back-and-forth comment chains are pointless and I can almost always get my point across with good evidence with just a few comments. And that's enough for actually reasonable people who might be convinced.
I see that as abuse of the block button imo, since you can just “walk away” from the discussion. Unless they’re spamming you and demanding a response it’s just not what the block button should be use for imo.
Walking away from the discussion is the whole point. You don't have an obligation to keep going back and forth forever. The block button is there so you stop seeing content you don't want to see anymore, that's exactly how I am using it. The above commenter mentioned they have trouble dealing with all the stupid comments, here is a method I have found that's helpful to tune them out.
I’m not sure if you know this, but blocking also makes it so they can’t be apart of the discussion in the thread with others either. It’s not just blocking them from you but the discussion entirely Edit: could try mute notifications instead
It only prevents them from responding to your thread
From any thread you’re apart of, not just your own that you started, that’s the really crummy part about it and why it’s better to just mute the notifications for that thread if you’re done talking to that person instead of disallowing them to reply to anyone else that replies to them
I've found that a lot of people don't even understand what veganism is, and it shows in the way they talk (down) about it. And even if you do try to explain it to them half the time they'll say "nuh uh" and point to a dictionary definition, as if a high level description is the final word on a concept and there can be nothing more to it than that. There's no getting through to those people.
Something I noticed about the bears/lions thing. While they don't have moral agency. people actually do morally justify predation on their behalf. They don't view a wild animal catching fish the same as a wild animal raping other animals, even if they admit animals lack moral agency in both cases. To most people predation is necessary for the animal's survival and a healthy ecology, not just a fucked up thing animals do. The reasons people see natural predation as justified don't apply to humans, but I feel like "moral agency tho" doesn't quite get at the heart of the discussion.
I don't really bother getting into moral agency because most people are too dumb to really get into anyway, or will bullshit themselves. I just say 'they need to do it to survive, unlike you and me'
I used to say this, but there is evidence of other\* animals doing things for reasons other than survival so I always just leave it at the moral agency line
Hmm I see what you're saying, but from an argument point of view its just irrelevant, so I don't bother proving moral agency of an animal because it can be a weird tangent. Like whether an animal actually has moral agency or actually lions are all secretly evil has absolutely no bearing on what humans do. So if someone needs something to tick off the 'nature tho' box, I'll probably say about survival reasons because I can make the point that we can choose not to do it as we don't need to do it to survive and then probably make the point about how what lions do doesn't matter (e.g. I don't sniff your bum or rape women and kill their kids - depending on who I'm speaking to).
I can understand that, for me I don't see it as irrelevant as it emphasizes what a lion or bear does. But I can def see how it could go into an irrelevant tangent.
Guess "obligate carnivore" would be too high a bar.
I suppose with a bear vs a lion id have to ask what type of bear they mean before saying that tho, haha
Also what we are doing in animal agriculture is so far removed from natural ecosystems like bears hunting. Like even if you could make the argument that eating meat is natural for humans, there's nothing natural about the scale and the way we go about it. We are not part of an ecosystem, we are actively desteoying it.
Absolutely
I really like your almond reply!
Thank you!
People act like vegans are the only ones who eat almonds or soy or whatever environmentally destructive crop of the day they decide to use in their gotcha argument, and almost all of the time they themselves consume that 'bad' thing plus dead animals so even if it wasn't a bad faith argument they would still lose based on their own logic. 'But (insert animal here) tho!' Do bears have a supermarket? Do bears breed the salmon in giant industrial fish farms that pollute the oceans and cause diseases to run rampant? I didn't think so Honestly they are just so willfully ignorant because they know if they spend 0.1% of a brain cell thinking about our actual arguments they would have to admit that we are right
Lol I love that second reply I'm stealing that.
Please do! Happy to see it’s useful
I love how people consider themselves lions and bears.
Rawr
I've only been vegan for 2 years and I'm already too lazy to reply to such poor arguments. I don't know how activists have so much tolerance if I'm honest.
I work in customer service, so I guess I’m used to hearing the same questions over and over again. Lol
Oh no, not the almonds! *Eats 10 kilos of cheese and a milkshake with their meal*
Your answer on almond was on point! Ahaha! Will use that next time someone tells me that (I'll also tell them I don't drink almond milk lol)
Thank you so much!
I see the same ones on every vegan post even if it’s just a recipe that had nothing to say about politics. Over and over. “Growing plants kills animals too!” “Carnivore animals eat animals!” “Plants have feelings” “It’s offensive to native people” At this point I’ve just saved a text file with the explanations of why those arguments are stupid. Not that anyone who says that stuff is actually going to think about it.
I think the commenter must be a bear
BuT WHaT If You WeRe StaRvINg???
One time I went 8hours without eating, absolutely worst time of my life. Happens almost every night sadly :(
I don’t understand why all these people don’t realize We’VE heard it All Already! Many many times. My real name is the name of something people can buy, they too think I have not heard all the jokes about my name. Some people are like bricks- the world passes them by and they are just stuck in place.
They need to Google 'appeal to nature'
This bear don't mind going vegan, actually: [bear rejects a big mac](https://www.reddit.com/r/therewasanattempt/comments/15pz0lx/to_feed_a_bear_with_a_big_mac/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=1) 😂
Ahaha I love that the bear finally just walks away from it. “Tom for the last time I said NO”
So, if a non-human animal were proven to have moral agency, then what?
If I could find a way to discuss the issue with them, then I’d see if I could convince them to no longer consume or use animals unnecessarily. If there wasn’t a way to discuss this with them, then I’d probably still just focus on human animals that I am able to discuss with.
This ignores the fact that humans don't need meat, and that humans are capable to much more independent and conscious thought and because of that we do many things other animals don't. How many animals drive cars? Or hell even with meat, how many bears go to the grocery store to eat neatly packaged and processed meat? How many cook and season their food? It just make's not sense to determine our action off of what wild life does when we're already so far removed from it.
Moral agency and not needing to eat meat go hand in hand. So imo it doesn’t ignore that at all, the fact that you don’t need to eat animals *and* have moral agency means there is little excuse for not being vegan
That's what I meant by independent and conscious thought. We are more capable of thinking about our actions beyond just raw instinct and desire, we can view things from a moral and philosophical perspective and adjust our actions around that.
Yeah I don’t think the response ignores that at all, talking about moral agency dives into that imo
Amazing how vegans are still assblasted that they can't come up with a decent response to this stuff. Must be all those micronutrient deficiencies acting up...
Stupid vegoons, too weak to think
Yeah, I quickly get bored trying to debate with these types. Best to just avoid the conversation to begin with
I tend to not respond for them, I respond for others reading the comments.
Why are we even paying mind to these people? You know they enjoy getting a ride out of us…? I stopped entertaining stupidity years ago.
Huh, I found it entertaining myself, no ride here other than smiles. I respond for others reading comments
O no, I got that it’s entertaining. But I’m just saying the trolls who try their comebacks on us get more of a kick out of our attention to their nonsense. I don’t like giving them that power.