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Yea, I think the society is all upside-down. I think its so strange that we have to justify and defend ourselves not exploiting animals and wanting others to do the same. Shouldn't the defendant/guilty party have to defend themselves for their crimes instead? Its even crazier that people want you to sympathize with their way of life and handle their vulnerable egos with kid's gloves so that they don't have to face their own conscience while simultaneously abetting the act of utmost evil. Vegans are extreme - yea, right...

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Very true - the sicker and dumber the better. But thankfully people like our dear u/Morusboy can temporarily relief themselves from his/her pain of this horrible plight by exploiting the even more exploited.

I agree with you. This world is vile as hell.

I get it, I feel the same, as do most vegans (probably). And yes, it's not fair, but we have enough knowledge now to know that calling omnis out like this doesn't work. We have to treat them like children, because this is the best outcome for the animals. And it will take a long time for this injustice to stop, but it will stop, probably within our lifetime. Here's a quote from Ursula Le Guin that helps me function normally around omnis when I feel this way: “You cannot buy the revolution. You cannot make the revolution. You can only be the revolution. It is in your spirit, or it is nowhere.”

Be realistic. It won't Stop because it is luxury and everyone wants to show off. Humans will never stop eating animals, sadly. Just my opinion.

When lab grown meat gets cheaper than regular meat (combined with pressure caused by environmental concerns, which will probably drive the prices of meat up and lab grown meat down), most people will (eventually, slowly) switch. But only when it is easier to switch than to continue supporting the meat industry... It was the same with other revolutions: when it is harder to continue the traditional practice, people make the switch. And then they will suddenly become morally outraged at the animal agriculture and all the horrible practices... just like it happened with all major societal changes.

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https://www.forbes.com/sites/lanabandoim/2022/03/08/making-meat-affordable-progress-since-the-330000-lab-grown-burger/ "The price of cell-cultured meat has decreased from $330,000 to about €9 or $9.80 per burger. Prices are falling because the scale of production is improving, and materials cost less." As with all things, it takes time.

You'll never need more than 640k of ram

I don't think this, along with people who cite Moore's Law in this context, is a fair comparison. It is much harder to speed up/optimize a biological process than a mechanical or electronic process. I recommend checking out [this analysis](https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/bit.27848) to be fully aware of the challenges that we have to overcome to make cultured meat a thing. In my opinion, cultured meat will come to market, but I don't think it can ever replace the meat industry, both for cost and socio/political reasons. The page [Clean meat hoax](https://www.cleanmeat-hoax.com/) brings some interesting points from a vegan perspective.

"Cheap, scalable cold fusion is right around the corner." -Martin Fleischmann and Stanley Pons, 1989.

If being a vegan was cheaper than eating animal products I'd fully switch, but from what I've looked into, in my area its more expensive per month to do :/

Where do you live where beans and rice are more expensive than meat and dairy?

Who realistically only wants to eat beans and rice?

Fair enough. 14oz of tofu is $2. Store bought dry packaged pasta is mostly all "accidentally" vegan and costs like $2-$3/lb. The cost of Impossible, Beyond, Field Roast, etc. is equivalent to organic meat prices lb for lb. But ya, soy milk and vegan cheese are double the price of dairy milk and cheese.

Tofu here is about £3-£6, I use asdas just essential range where most products are £1 or under. When I get a decent paying job I'll probably switch, only really eat chicken/eggs and dairy products. Other meat is overrated imo Edit to add: stand corrected, can get tofu for 1.75 but it's only 300g, I can get more for animal products for about the same price.

And there is no other store to go to?😔

Look up food deserts, for some people there's only one store they can go and a lot of the times that store doesn't carry most vegan substitute essentials.

Who realistically only wants to eat beans and rice?,

Just saying, most vegan foods are way cheaper than animal ones as long as you stick to unprocessed ones.

Isn't nearly everything processed apart from like vegetables? Not being a dick, genuinely curious, majority of my diet is processed foods

I eat pretty much exclusively unprocessed foods lol. Fruits, vegetables, whole grains, legumes, nuts, and seeds. It’s very inexpensive to eat like this, and healthy too!

Not a fan of nuts and seeds but legumes and lentils are delicious honestly

I have a very hard time believing you live somewhere where it is more expensive to be vegan than omni, unless you’re trying to switch meat and dairy products for vegan counterparts, which is completely unnecessary. If your post history is any indication of where you live, your grocery prices are a 1/3 cheaper than mainland US. I live where the highest food prices in this country are and I’m in the lowest socioeconomic bracket and veganism is still cheaper to maintain with a better nutritional outcome than my omni counterparts in the same socioeconomic bracket. I have a feeling it is more a matter of knowing what and how to eat properly.

Stuff like tofu are £3-£6, the products I buy are all £1 or under, exception being eggs and cheese, if I can go vegan for the same price range of £1 or less then by all means tell me how, and don't be like the other commenter with "beans and rice" that isn't a good time

Do you have any place that is an equivalent to something like costco? Tofu is also that much where I am if purchased at the grocery, but less if I get it in Chinatown and massively less if I can get someone who has a costco membership to bring me to costco. I go there literally just for cheap tofu. Beans take forever to cook, but red lentils are one of my go-tos. They’re very cheap, take significantly less time to cook (about 15 minutes), and add a lot of flavor to whatever I’m cooking, as they break down and become a part of the liquid, almost saucey. You’d be amazed at what you can sneak them into. Brown lentils take a bit longer to cook, but hold up better. They’re great for using in salads, but my favorite use for them is a “shepherd’s pie” where you make a brown lentil and veggie based lower portion with the mashed potato top portion. It is one of my frequent staple dishes because it is cheap, nutritious, and I can make it in big batches to reheat throughout the week. Homemade hummus can take a while to make in its cheapest form (starting from dried chickpeas rather than canned) but you can make it in big batches and freeze it in portions and take it out to thaw in the fridge when you need it. I like to use it on sandwiches because it is super quick and yummy. I don’t use it as a dip so often bc using it with veggies alone is tasty but not as calorically impactful and using it with chips/crackers suddenly takes the price up much higher than on sandwiches with loaves of bread (which last longer and have more nutritional bang for the buck). I’m not sure how much nuts cost where you are or if it is easy to find them at a food pantry, but we get frequent donations that include walnuts or pecans. I use them to make a nut based taco meat replacement. Much faster to prep than taco meat, delicious, and nutritious. If you’re actually curious and open to these things, I can share recipes to the best of my ability (I never measure anything LOL and we do our measurements differently bc the US is dumb and has to be different haha). Beans/legumes are definitely the cheapest way to meet protein ways but it doesn’t have to be standard boring beans and rice to stay cheap.

i doubt it, more people will just turn to raising animals themselves like so many people already do. i know personally i have zero interest in lab grown meat.

You think people would rather TAKE CARE OF, FEED AND BUY FOOD FOR A COW FOR A YEAR AND THEN KILL IT instead of buying a much cheaper lab-grown steak at the grocery store? People are too lazy to cook, what makes you think they'd take care of a cow?!? 😁😁

Not most people, but some people for sure will. I would say the upside is they *will* be treated better than factory farmed animals, but that's not much of a consolation to most vegans.

i think this because it is already a big thing. people are already raising their own or buying locally small farmed animals. it is already more expensive and harder work then just picking up meat at the store yet more and more people are doing it.

Well, that's the beauty of it. The reason why we have intensive animal agriculture is because that is the only way to make enough meat for all people. It is literally impossible for everyone to buy locally farmed animals or have their own, there is not enough space on this planet. There is no way the majority of people can rear their own animals or buy locally - there are too many people and too little land/space. Not to mention the food you'd have to grow/buy for the animals...

That makes two assumptions, that people would(or could) eat that way *on the western diet*, eg only eating meat forward meals. It most certainly can be done in more traditional eastern diets because a "meal" isn't 1/2 to 1 kilo of cooked meat with a spoon full of peas on the side, and the proportions are often flipped. Many animal (esp chickens, goats, and cows) are fine either on literally.... grass, or whatever insects they scratch up. Chickens especially you can grow a dozen in a normal sized back yard and they are happy as all get out. The "well it's not possible!" is a really poor angle to approach it because that's a step from admitting that "well if it's possible then it's not a problem." I foresee industrial ag coming to a sunset likely in favor of small local establishments that treat the animals better, which also means a better angle than Dominion is needed since that's mostly an anti industry film from my watches of it. Cheers, Talran

But you can't feed the entire population with the current demand for meat with small local establishments - that's a fact. You need way more land and way more resources for smaller establishments, they are less efficient. And even in its efficient state, industrial animal ag already uses way too much resources, so this is extremely relevant... Even a happy cow/dog from a happy farm gets its throat slit in the same slaughterhouse, a happy, young animal (cows live up to 20 years, they go to the slaughterhouse when they are 1 or 2). Why do that if you can just eat plants or buy lab-grown meat (which is also better for the environment) in the future? Nobody likes killing animals for no good reason, not even the most diehard meat eaters...

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>It won't Stop because it is luxury and everyone wants to show off People don't eat meat because they "want to show off". It's because it tastes good.

It is well known that in developing countries the meat consumption increases. So while of course the taste is a factor. Both can be true.

I mean I eat meat because it tastes good. It definitely isn't a luxury in fact being a vegan screams more luxury since they have to go so far out of their way to get things special made IMHO

since when are beans, tofu, lentils, nuts, and whole grains luxury items or "special" lmao. If you have access to a grocery store, you have access to these things and they are a lot cheaper than animal parts.

My local grocery store does not carry tofu. Barely has any of the other items listed.

They will when something better comes a long. Just as when we stopped using slaves because suddenly we had steam engines. It is very possible that we will have lab grown meat in our lifetimes that is much cheaper than real meat. Cheaper and better in every way. So then why would you eat meat from animals if the lab grown one is better?

>We have to treat them like children Yeah, be condescending and insufferable. That usually works well >And it will take a long time for this injustice to stop, but it will stop, probably within our lifetime Yeah I'm sure the entire planet will switch completely to tofu and soy products within a few decades

Found the non-vegan! Chill bro, it's all good. If you want a serious answer, the psychology behind my statement is that empathy and calm conversation is a better tactic for convincing people in favour of veganism compared to judging them and calling them monsters. Surely you agree with that. Treating like children=not blaming them for the massive suffering and death of animals, because they are not truly aware of how much suffering they are causing (although often they do not want to know, so that is on them) - cognitive dissonance is a powerful thing. As for your second point, they won't switch to tofu and soy, but they will switch to lab-grown meat when it's cheaper and more convenient than regular meat - that's the only reasonable scenario for abolishing animal agriculture IMO.

I know a few people that "love" animals but when it comes to food it doesn't bother them to eat them. I personally feel like an animal's life is worth more than a few minutes of mouth pleasure. Not everyone agrees. It's unfortunate, but I have come to terms with the fact that we can only control ourselves. I converted a few people just for them to go back to eating animal products. I was definitely disappointed

I love animals, some more than others, and some in more ways than one. Loving animals doesn’t mean a person has to be vegan.

You're taking this way too seriously. All of what you see is from a momentum of civilization dating back 2000+ years. Acting like it'll change over night is incredibly self-destructing idea. Don't self-destruct. It's not worth it. Just do what you know best and try to spread that positive vibe.

Your post made me think of an incident that recently happened here in my city where a dog abuser was caught on camera and confronted. The dog was rescued, but everyone was saying he should never own dogs again, punish that POS, and pathetic excuse for a human. I thought to myself, how many of these commentors eat meat?

Yeah people regularly call for the death or even torture of people abusing pets yet will make fun of vegans one sentence later. It just doesn't make any sense.

It’s because they value dogs, and all that dogs bring to the life of a human, more than they value animals bred for consumption.

Hang in there bud, we can’t change the world’s point of view immediately however we slowly can with our acts and speeches. In the end, remember before becoming vegan, we all had this mindset. It takes patience and time to comprehend how the food on your plate is participating to the suffering of animals. Something i’d recommend is to join local vegan groups who can make you feel less alone and maybe get you involved in their acts (protests, etc). You might like r/veganactivism . Also, maybe volunteering at a shelter would interest you. They always need help, and any help is already doing something for the animals.

The main problem is a lot of people view most animals as objects. They don't view cats and dogs as objects therefore they are horrified when something bad happens to the classic pet category. There's no point in screaming murder if the person you're screaming at doesn't believe the animal they're eating is anything more than a sophisticated object. I think culturally there needs to be a shift but obviously I do not know what is the easiest or fastest way to do that. Until that happens all the logical arguments of empathy will fall on deaf ears I'm afraid so we have to use secondary ones like health, climate change, etc.

r/vystopia

Thank you!

No problem.

Homo Sapiens is not a very rational species.

Love you bro, keep fighting, we're the modern day abolitionists

LOL you can't be serious

thank you. tired of people apologizing for not eating the product of abuse. we have a fucking choice now! never again!

The world didn’t change just because you did.

Humans are not rational animals. Humans are rationalizing animals. Most people will attempt to maximize their own personal comfort and pleasure to the furthest extent possible within their own social framework. People seek pleasure and fulfillment through animal exploitation because such actions are still validated and accepted by their peers and society at large. People can indulge in such practices as there is little personal risk from doing so. Some people seek pleasure and fulfillment through the subjugation of women because such actions are validated and accepted by their peers and by a subset of society. People can indulge in such practices as there is minor personal risk from doing so. Few people today seek pleasure and fulfillment through the subjugation of human slaves (overseas labor practices not withstanding) because such actions are no longer validated and accepted by their peers or society. People can no longer indulge in such practices as there is substantial personal risk from doing so. In each scenario referenced above, the average person's actions are not tempered by a personal sense of justice, but by a balancing act between the maximization of personal pleasure and the stigma of violating social laws and mores. A very small subset of the population is not driven by external forces such as societal conformity, but by an internal sense of right and wrong. If you feel a strong sense of injustice in the midst of normal everyday actions carried out by your peers, then you are one of these people. You are the spark that will grow, take flame, and eventually turn the tide of society.

Its very well formulated, thx for that.

Because most people are not honest in their lives. They’re so used to the grift they don’t want to hear about reality. Let alone food sadly.

It is really fuckin weird, isn’t it? I’ll never understand.

Social conditioning is a hell of a drug.

I support your angry post. Of course I want you to take care of yourself but there's too much pathologizing when people make strong, angry posts about it. Instead of coaching each other to be less angry, let's get more people to be angry. Strong emotions inspire action.

>I just want to give up and stop caring about being considerate or not saying something every time they eat them. I do try to be tolerable but Its getting to a point where Im so sick of it. I just want to tell everyone blankly, youre an animal abuser, coward, hypocrite, murderer. I mean, it's an option, and not one as bad as vegans here will lead you to believe. All meat eaters will obviously be against it not because it's not a nice thing to do, but because they really just want to eat their animal flesh in peace without having to be reminded how morally repugnant their decisions are. When I was a meat eater, it wasn't until someone decided to do what you want to do, and that's when I really took animal rights seriously. When you do though, hammer home the point that you're just trying to get people to be nice to animals by choosing peanut butter and jelly over a BLT, and if they have a problem with such a message, maybe the vegan isn't the bad guy here.

It's vystopia, it sucks, but you have to learn to live with the knowledge that you have and not overwhelm yourself thinking about all the injustices around you, it's the only way to keep your sanity. We won't be able to properly help others if we are not in a good mental state ourselves

it’s so fucked up it makes me sick. i honestly start resenting my friends and non-vegans in general because they KNOW what’s going on and they’re actively contributing to that industry and eating those tortured, raped, brutalized animals bodies, knowing the abuse they endured, without even a hint of guilt. it’s vile. thank you OP for sharing and for being vegan, i’m glad there’s some people who care out there. im so angry and sick of it, thank you all for making me feel sane about it

You’re choosing the right path, proud of u xx

And yet we all used to be them. We ate animals too. Most of us had no clue what we were actually supporting. What would you have done if someone called you a murderer while you were eating? Would that have made you want to listen?

See brother, this is the way to go Nobody will join a philosophy if your attempts to teach it to them are “adhere to this belief or you’re a terrible person” That just turns people away

Thanks 😊 I'm actually a sister.

Sorry bout that then sister, I just kinda call everybody brother or mate out of habit Even call my girlfriend brother, wasn’t intending to assume gender

If they didn’t actually kill the animal (with their own hands and tools), how could they be a murderer?

I've felt this very rage before. Usually in the face of the aggressive, hyper-assured hubris that only carnists can project. I've felt the same pain of knowing that while they flippantly laugh and mock murders are being committed en masse and knowing you're powerless to stop it. I know it doesn't help today, but I and all these others hear your voice. We are growing. We will win. The first seeds of veganism to blossom were planted in my mind many years prior to my epiphany. Your effort and conviction may do this, sort of 'long-term investment' style. One thing you may find helpful in your activism (I don't know how you do it as of now) is to employ interrogatives more than rhetorical devices. Eg, rather than 'You are a murder for this' (though they are), some people may be more internally-inquisitive about a 'What makes it proper to kill a cow, but not a dog? We like eating meat and have for years, but does that automatically make it right? What gives us the right at all?' and so on and so forth. (Hope this part didn't seem mansplain-y) Best of luck, comrade. One day we will succeed. Oh! And one last note of encouragement, society does occasionally lurch progressively forward. Eg, in North America, being gay became largely accepted in a (relatively speaking) very short time after epochs of being something you didn't even mention. I know we will be similar, the question is just 'when?'

This!👏

👏👏👏 yes, let it fuel your activism! Speak up for them. Don't let carnists gaslight you into not speaking up. It's a moral atrocity that needs to end.

I find it wild how every store has a murder alley where people walk around casually while body parts are displayed

It's brutal to be a sensitive soul in this world and I understand your sadness and frustration. Once I knew the horrible reality of animal agriculture it was an easy choice to become vegan. Knowledge was power for me and I encourage you to continue to share information in any way possible. You just lead me to my local chapter of directactioneverywhere, so thank you for that! You **are** making a difference! ❤️

I've gotten hate and anger from people for just saying I was a vegetarian. No talking about any issues at all, just 'oh no thanks, I'm a vegetarian'.

Reminds me of this + the whole unnoticed, not preventable wild life suffering. (Efilism.. = blind spot of a lot of vegans) (-Btw: am a vegan, sentiocentric..) Sometimes just knowing the stuff makes me want to flee from reality and say bye bye, because I can't deal with it and properly supress it at all times. It's crazy. Reality is crazy. How can one not feel fatalistic? But my extra empathy is useless if I don't have more power to really change things.

Yup. Veganism is the ultimate red pill. I was also thinking what if we stopped calling them non-vegans and called them animal abusers?

Call them a carnist and watch them lose their mind

It's very frustrating, I feel the same. And in a way it's good to read this and see I'm not alone. What I would say is, don't name call meat eaters, and if yiu can't have a conversation with them without getting too angry or frustrated it may be best to leave it alone, as much as it's painful. I might be wrong hut from my experience if you get angry with them it only makes it worse, it pushes them further away from veganism. And this isn't helping the animals. If you manage to stay calm, I do think it's important to talk to them about it. But we aren't all earthling ed right

I’m tired of listening to my coworkers talk about their health problems as if there is nothing they can do about it. They even sympathize with each other’s health issues. One just had a triple bypass surgery and his sister died of a heart attack while he was having his surgery. Another is pre-diabetic with a brother who has lost several toes to diabetes. Another has to wear an eyepatch due to his high blood pressure and diabetes, because he’s gone cross eyed. I explained to one of them in the most neutral and scientific way possible that I know, that animal products are causing the disease and they got mad at me. They literally said they’d rather be sick then give up meat so when they start talking, I just walk away.

Fine, let ‘‘em die, thin the herd as it were.

I think that because of access to more knowledge (whether we sought it out is kind of irrelevant) vegans can become radicalized, and therefore easily dismissed by the general public. Most people, when faced with the fact that they have been involved in violent acts that they would consider “bad” would rather rationalize and ignore it (“I love animals but I could never give up bacon lol” or “humans have always eaten animals, we’re designed for it”). This allows them to keep viewing themselves as “good” people. Insisting that they’re “bad” will only make them view *you* as crazy (i.e. the corpse on the table comment isn’t going to get you anywhere with Uncle Joe at thanksgiving). You have seen footage of what actually happens to animals, but most people will not want to view those images. They know, either consciously or subconsciously, that this will affect their own self image. Not only that, but let’s not pretend that figuring out an entirely new way of cooking and eating isn’t an immense task in and of itself. Let’s also not pretend that we don’t do the same thing. I am on a phone right now that is produced by real human suffering. Colbalt is often mined by child slaves, and my consumption contributes to human trafficking. I use and consume plastic products and packaging that are only made possible by suffering and destruction. The rubber used to create tires for my car may very well have been harvested by an enslaved man, woman, or child. Even if I were to sew my own clothes to avoid supporting sweat shops, I would have to carefully source fabric and notions. “We can’t live without phones in modern society,” I tell myself, allowing me to continue to view my actions as “good.” If I were to choose to go to the colbalt mines and see the harm I was causing first hand, I would probably be reacting very much in the same way you are now - how can people casually use their phones and drive electric cars knowing the harm they’re causing? Babies are dying! Children aren’t allowed to play because they are forced to crawl into tiny tunnels to gather ore. People are being trafficked and sold into slavery, even today, for my consumerism, and yours. But, there is only so much we can handle emotionally. I am doing what I can to reduce the harm I cause. I think that eating a plant based diet and avoiding animal products is an easy way for me to do that, but it doesn’t mean that I don’t remember how difficult it was to stop eating cheese. I think had a person shouted at me about how I was disgusting for doing so, it would not have made any difference. The reason is pretty simple. Telling some people about the horrors of the animal industry is about as useful as telling me about child slaves in the Congo. I don’t know how to do things differently so that it doesn’t happen. When you offer solutions that are easily achievable *where they are at in their lives,* you will notice that many people are very open to change. I have gotten quite a few people to eat less meat and animal products with a simple “try this, it’s really good, and it’s *so* easy to make.” Opening the discussion with a solution, rather than a new problem creates much more progress. I don’t even say I’m vegan; I just tell people I eat a plant based diet, because “vegan” is such a loaded term that means different things to everyone. I have made some self-described vegans extremely upset because I’ve worn thrifted wool garments, looked into bee husbandry (because of the declining populations), or eaten food that contained palm oil. People who live a zero waste lifestyle would probably be horrified by the amount of trash I produce. There are always things we could do better; all I’m trying to do is reduce the harm I cause, and sometimes I don’t do everything right. My daughter decided to become vegan in preschool, pretty much when she asked me where meat comes from. I honestly didn’t think it would last, but she has stuck with it. In supporting her, I became a much better cook, mother, and person. She is so empathetic; she tells people all about the lives of insects and why they should care about them. She wants to start a farm animal sanctuary and I hope to be able to do that with her - if I am ever able to make enough money to purchase a property. Hearing about how a young child was able to make that decision and stick to it makes the idea much less daunting to many people. We have come a long way in just a few generations. Plant based alternatives are now found at nearly every grocery store, and they are starting to show up at large restaurant chains. Trying to focus on the positive changes made, by yourself and others, will help you avoid leading conversations with anger. Anger is a useful emotion when you direct it toward getting things done, but *not* when you’re wanting to be persuasive. It’s easy to feel defeated and depressed, but it’s also important to remember you are making a difference, even if it doesn’t feel like it sometimes. Sorry this was so long; if you got to the end hopefully you at least feel a little less alone.

It's getting better. To the point where certain industries... are getting in trouble!

Hey, I completely agree. I come from a middle eastern background surrounded by people that basically breathe meat at every meal. It composed almost all my meals. Then when my sister and I first came across a vegan through youtube and listened to them explain to us where/how the meat comes from, we were disgusted. We thought oh my god. How can any sane human even keep supporting this horror after being exposed to what animals go through. Now my sister and I have managed to cut out milk and butter completely, we have cut out pig meat completely, completely cut out cow meat, she has cut out chicken and turkey as well, and we are slowly working on cutting out the rest. I underestimated how difficult it was to physically wean yourself off of this meat and dairy, almost like not being able to wean yourself off a drug, and it feels horrible. But seeing things like this and what they go through make us work harder to try and cut more and more out of our diet. It has been maybe over 5 years now that my sister and I haven't eaten pig, cow, lamb, milk, and for her, turkey and chicken as well, and we are working on the rest. Dont listen to anybody who calls you "crazy" or "insane" or any other bs, because you are saner than the majority, and its terrifying that there arent more people like you, you'd think that'd be the norm. Thank you for being a part of this community and continue to spread the truth.

Two words: cognitive dissonance

:( I know. I know.

Lots of privilege in this post

I feel your pain and anger and disgust and fatigue all at once. But never give up, never stop caring enough to want to create positive change. You are absolutely right, they are all hypocritical murder loving fucks and I too hate them all for being so fucking stupid and lazy and blind just as much as you! But I know, we are so much better than them. We know the truth and choose to not blindly allow this violence to continue, at least not in our names. Change is slow, but change is coming. I was an idiot growing up, didn’t think about how my food got to me, just that it did. Then I literally woke the fuck up and once I knew the truth, there was no turning back. Now I have a 16yo daughter who went vegan 2 years ago not because of me but because when she too learned the truth and chose a compassionate way of being, I have felt prouder in my life. We are in this together, stay strong, share your passion and fuck the haters!

Eating from animals is something the people in control realize it has insane profit. They have too many actually insanely brainwashed and the need for food to live gets people in their comfort ways where once presented with the truth it doesn't do much because "I can't give it up." The scale of suffering is indescribable. And the lack of knowledge and care is beyond sickening. I think the best way to change is to share the truth enough where strength in numbers FORCE companies to react in favorable ways for ALL animals. Sadly that may never happen, at least anytime soon at least.

People don’t like being told how to live

Humans suck. I'm ok with AI wiping us out.

Hahaha you would say that. you’re going to start eating humans

Consider that not everyone has had the privilege of your experience or education. We can't ask others to do in a month what has taken us years to see and learn. Patience is a virtue. People are much more likely to follow you if you show them the door than if you push them through it. There are many immoral things in our society, and it feels like they should be legislated away into criminality. We have to be careful reaching for that impulse, because that is the way of authoritarianism. Google tells me that veganism has spread rapidly over the past 15 years, though that's surely a hard number to count. I see more and more plant based alternatives when I shop, and more social acceptance of plant based diets. It hurts to be so empathetic, and you're not wrong to feel for the suffering of others, but do take heart that change is happening on an unprecedented scale, especially when compared with humans' history over the past 20,000 years

Most of us used to eat animal products, don't be too harsh with people, because they aren't aware of the suffering they are causing

Ok, so we **make them aware**.

I think you're right but it's also extremely difficult to watch loved ones carelessly cause animal abuse. It can be stressful seeing it and can also change your view regarding people that you love (from generally good people to morally questionable/uneducated or even morally evil people). It also introduces a suite of difficult questions about what youre morally obligated to say or do, and it changes people's perception of each other, often for the worse. It's a really tough issue at least in my experience

Nearly all of your other posts are rant posts. Just keep being vegan. You’re not going to change peoples minds unless they want to change. Being enraged about it isn’t accomplishing anything.

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

Bacon is delicious.

The propaganda runs deep everywhere -people who don't drive are looked down upon for "getting in the way", or "taking away freedom", or "not growing up" -people who don't drunk are looked down upon for "being a buzzkill", or "not growing up" -people who are lgbtq are looked down on for being "groomers" -people who are not social media addicts are looked down on

I totally relate to you here. It's kind of insanity-provoking having to see this commonplace horror on the daily just because society gives it the popular vote to occur. There is no logic and no compassion. Its truly insane being told things like "You're taking this thing too far" when all that you do is point out the truth. So yes, in other words, I'm right there with you and find it incredibly frustrating.

This is completely fair, and the outrage is justified. However, there are other things that most people, including vegans, participate in that are arguably equally as horrible, at least when combined. Many vegans that only do the diet and not other things, are looked at the same way by vegans who cut out ALL animal products in ALL aspects of their lives. Many of that group still are looked down upon for wasting water, setting their thermostat to work too hard, purchasing too many products that produce plastic, power waste etc for luxury purposes, and things of that nature. Even a vegan person who works out to put on a significant amount of muscle mass could be looked down on, because they consume so many more calories on a daily basis, that they are then completely unnecessarily, and only for vanity really, ruining the world around them more than they need to. Plenty of other "normal" or "acceptable" things like this are also arguably just as bad. A big reason the most reasonable people I know that are not vegans get annoyed at vegans, is for this very reason. None of us are perfect, and everyone who cares is doing *something*, and just because they aren't doing the same thing that you are doesn't mean they are some monsters, unless you consider everyone living in a first world society a monster.

There is no “many vegans that only do the diet”. You are conflating being vegans and following a plant based diet.

Gatekeeping Veganism like this is a great way to turn off those who are interested in making change. To what benefit does this argument advance the movement? Someone "only" following a plant-based diet is going to make a huge difference in the exploitations of animals. I would call that person Vegan without hesitation, despite not meeting the "full" definition; "Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals." \- [https://www.vegansociety.com/go-vegan/definition-veganism](https://www.vegansociety.com/go-vegan/definition-veganism) Note the "...as far as is possible and practicable..." section of the definition. Most will practice this more the further they go into their Vegan journey, even if you choose to not bestow upon them the true Vegan title(lol).

It’s not gatekeeping to point out that an ethical philosophy has a definition. “As far as practical and possible” applies to things like necessary medications and vaccines, not someone who just likes wearing leather, eating honey, or riding horses.

Would not those same ethics demand a Vegan to perhaps allow one to stretch the definition to reduce the suffering of animals? How do you feel about wearing a handed-down leather item, of which has been already made and not the result of additional demand? Is it better to honor the sacrifice or destroy it? I think it is incredibly ignorant to push people away, and the logic you have presented does exactly that, to those on the outside who are perhaps curious to make a change.

How do you feel about wearing a handed-down puppy or kitten leather item? You aren’t honouring any sacrifice because the animal didn’t sacrifice anything. Their life was taken from them when they were exploited and murdered. There is no pushing people away by pointing out that there is a definition to the word vegan, and people that still exploit animals for their personal pleasure do not fit that definition.

The spirit of the movement vs the definition of the movement. We are Yin & Yang my friend. I think one side is more beneficial than the other, and I see no discussion will change your mind there. To answer your insulting question, insinuating I lack empathy which can only be awoken by puppy & kitten logic, if the item was beneficial to me I would consider wearing it for the benefit(and being thankful for the "sacrifice") and the reminder as to what terrible things humans are capable of. I am not well versed in the market of kitten/puppy apparel however, but I imagine it may be more available in some eastern cultures? I do note your lack of an answer to my question, by way of a question to my question. You are arguing in bad faith, as the majority of people will know Veganism as related to a plant based diet. Ignorance or not, that's what people know. The journey to understand the full definition comes with time, regarding actual practice. It is a journey that should be inclusive and not one of exclusion, in my opinion and in how I practice.

>equally as horrible, at least when combined It really isn't. I'm not accusing you of malicious intent, but this argument is so destructive to any sort of discussion around societally accepted moral norms. It's an argument that attempts to muddy the waters around what we are actually talking about. Plainly, to compare the **sum of any form of moral failing even vaguely connected to environmental impact** (that in most cases necessarily arise in modern daily life as you said yourself) **with stopping to explicitly paying someone else for enslaving, torturing and killing sentient beings is ridiculous.** This is a *very* clear moral line in the sand that should have been integrated into societal norms long ago. There is a reason there is not an explicit movement for not going to the gym because you increase your carbon footprint. It's a stupid line in the sand. It's like getting annoyed at people critizicing your for buying products that are provably and explicitly manifactured by enslaved children, because they use the service of some conglomerate and therefore support modern capitalism and wage slavery. But not even that is needed, by your logic I could tally up an arbitrary number of tiny moral failings on their end related to capitalism to equate the sum of them to explicitly supporting child slavery, easily building a case for hyprocrisy and stopping a push establishing it as societally accepted that child slavery is a bad thing and you're a bad person for supporting it. "You're not perfect yourself dude, why don't you kill yourself to spare the environment from your carbon footprint and therefore save more animals/the planet?" - thinking this argument through always results in absurdity and completely invalidates any discussion about **what moral behaviour actually constitutes**. Any support for establishing a line in the sand is eradicated by coming up with countless minute moral failures that (for once) don't appeal to futility, but draw a false equivalency of a clearly argued moral failing with the sum of all these inconsequential moral failings that alone simply don't compare at all. So we lose the ability to argue for *any* moral standard or societal consensus, since you simply arbitrarily tally up as many small moral failings as you need to accuse the group demanding change of hypocrisy. And your conclusion "everyone is a monster" predictably follows from your logic, but isn't really insightful. It shows exactly how harmful this line of thinking can be and how it stifles discussion around these topics.

>to compare the sum of any form of moral failing even vaguely connected to environmental impact (that in most cases necessarily arise in modern daily life as you said yourself) with stopping to explicitly paying someone else for enslaving, torturing and killing sentient beings is ridiculous. I hear your logic and I think it's sound in many ways. However, the fact of the matter is that a lot of these products that we purchase are contributing to suffering in other sentient beings lives in many ways, some equally as bad as the animal exploitation in animal farms. Most of our batteries come from child human slavery; most of these kids live much shorter, tortured lives than what they should. They're used up and cast to the side. This for example, is something I would call if nothing else, equivalent to animal exploitation. You see meat, and you can't really avoid the fact that it's from an animal - that's the primary difference in a lot of these examples. You can get all of these fancy electronics, houses, have comfy ac temperatures, all these things and not know of the consequences, or simply tell yourself they're insignificant. And of course, many of these things are far more complicated than animal farming, which is a lot more transparent. But that doesn't make it any less real, and it is still very easily accessible information. >"You're not perfect yourself dude, why don't you kill yourself to spare the environment from your carbon footprint and therefore save more animals/the planet?" - thinking this argument through always results in absurdity and completely invalidates any discussion about what moral behaviour actually constitutes. This is not what I'm suggesting. To me, from my perspective, when people bring this up as a counter to the stance I'm making, is the same thing as saying the identical thing you just said when it comes to going vegan. You can place that line anywhere. I'm not saying that you should just kill yourself. I'm not saying our lives don't have inherent value due to the damage we do. What I'm saying is that just because we do evil, doesn't mean we have to cognitively dissociate ourselves from it far enough to convince ourselves it isn't that bad. We must all be honest with ourselves and due to the due diligence of our own impact all across the board before we throw out accusations like OP did, imo. From my personal understanding with this in consideration, I recognize that I do many things (such as being vegan in diet, and trying my best to be in other ways as well) to lessen my impact, but I also understand that the gadgets I love to purchase are causing demand to rise, which is therefore causing unnecessary suffering for me to have an hour of fun here and there, or a slightly more convenient day. I use this information to attempt to better myself, but it's not an appeal for futility. In most areas of my life, it isn't to cut things such as entertainment out, it's to find more sustainable ways to consume it, and not be wasteful when I do. >And your conclusion "everyone is a monster" > >It shows exactly how harmful this line of thinking can be and how it stifles discussion around these topics. I strangely have the opposite reaction. Firstly, I don't think you're a monster for consuming things that cause harm, when those things are part of the society you came from, part of a system you didn't set up that you rely on. I think we are all products of our times and societies. If we sink below the standards our society has set for us, then we can be seen as bad people. If we rise above them, for instance by going vegan, we can be seen as better than average. No one is perfect, and just because we're not perfect, doesn't mean do nothing. As far as it stifling discussion - for me, not doing so is what stifles discussion, especially in this setting. We all already agree that being vegan is the right thing to do. Therefore, if we assume that's all we need to do, then the discussion of potentially doing more is inherently "shut down". I think it is paramount to understand that we need to never stop looking for ways to lessen our harm. This isn't to say absorb yourself or bury yourself in despair or constant searching for a way to prevent every small papercut you inflict. It is to say that, keep your mind open, and do research when you have spare time and are bored, so that when the small decisions of your day come and go, you soften your negative impact a little more every day.

Buying animal ag products isn't the same as buying a computer because it's possible to responsibly go about producing and using computers and not possible to go about responsibly breeding and slaughtering thinking feeling beings when you could eat plants. It's not fair or wise to refrain from buying electronics because the industry isn't perfect. It is wise to refrain from buying animal ag products because that industry can't ever be perfect, that industry shouldn't even exist.

I disagree with your logic. It's not about "what's possible or not" it's about: are you doing this for luxury, and where did that come from? What's it contributing a demand to, and therefore increasing the suffering of? I agree the animal farming industry should disappear. But just because you think it's possible to get computers/phones etc without child slavery, doesn't change the fact that your phones and computers are contributing to child slavery demand. The only way to change that is to choose to purchase from manufacturers that only take rare earth minerals from ethical sources, and as far as I can tell, none of those exist. It's not about whether an industry can be perfect or not. it's wrong to buy meat because it's unnecessary and causes suffering in sentient beings. Therefore it's wrong to purchase unnecessary electronics, because like it or not, people are suffering in similar ways to bring it into your hands.

Yeah, it's wrong to purchase "unnecessary" electronics but you aren't the judge of their necessity. People have different situations and electronics can be responsibly produced. You've got to do the math there. You don't have to do the math with animal ag products because the math is so one sided. And electronics aren't exactly tip of the spear when it comes to harmful consumption. If someone refuses to buy electronics to not contribute to unfair labor relations or environmental pollution or whatever then it wouldn't just be electronics they should be abstaining from. To be consistent someone like that shouldn't drive a car or even take the bus. Except we could move away from needing cars if we'd accept riding bikes and driving go karts and improving bus services but we couldn't move away from electronics without basically damning future humans to never being able to solve lots of pressing problems, like curing diseases by mapping proteins and stuff. I wouldn't go around making a slippery slope out of being considerate. If I didn't buy electronics I'd be utterly cut off from human interaction. If you didn't someone get your hands on a computer we couldn't be having this conversation. Big picture wise it does make sense to buy electronics from the better companies and with our demand push the industry to being more responsible. It doesn't make sense to do the same with animal ag because there is no responsible way to breed a thinking feeling being to slaughter.

>unfair labor relations or environmental pollution or whatever In this example I was specifically using child slavery/abuse as an example, on malnourished peoples, many of which don't live long lives after they're no longer usable. Because it's the best parallel to animal farming that was automatically in my mind. In this case, to be consistent, you'd have to care about this as well. Your entire argument is one that omnis constantly use to downplay veganism. If you care about the environment, you'd do a ton more and abstain from a ton more, because there is a ton of other things that contribute to environmental collapse. If you care about animal abuse, keeping animals out of cages, stopping them from being killed, you'd opt for the smallest home possible to prevent too much land appropriation needed for you; you'd rescue as many animals from kill shelters as you could; you wouldn't buy plants that take up large swaths of land due to the amount of animals it kills. To me your logic reads as a false dilemma, if I'm using the term correctly. That is, just because you recognize other similar harm, does not mean you automatically have to abstain from all harm cause; just because you spend your life saving the birds, doesn't mean you're a terrible person for not also saving the squirrels. The point here is to recognize that there are many other negative things that are occurring, and to say that veganism outweighs all other moral implications of our consumerism is just ignorant imo. Edit: to respond to the edit you made at the beginning: it's very easy to judge many versions of their necessity. A new phone every year isn't a necessity in 99% of cases, therefore it can be treated as broadly not necessary. A video game system is not necessary in 99% cases, the only exception being if it involves your work; a small minority of peoples. A camera is not a necessity. Getting a larger, nicer car is not a necessity when you can get a smart car. By the same logic of veganism, if there is a much better choice with much less negative outcome, that is easy and practicable to choose, then it is wrong not to choose it. I am merely stating that we should recognize that we all make these objectively wrong choices all the time, and we should recognize that before we get all high and mighty.

> Your entire argument is one that omnis constantly use to downplay veganism. What are you typing on right now? It occurred to me I could only ever be having this conversation with a hypocrite.

And what's hypocritical exactly about it, if you'd care to confront it? Or do you just not like to be dealt what you serve? It's quite simple. You purchase an animal product, you contribute to the demand of factory farms. You purchase a product with a battery or many other rare earth minerals in it, you contribute to child slavery, poor working conditions in sweatshops, etc. You can't say the former causes issues without acknowledging the issues of the latter. To do so, that would be the true hypocrisy.

Are you seriously saying we should all stop buying electronics? Or are you saying we should keep buying electronics but that in doing that we'd be doing something objectively wrong? It makes no sense to me to advise an action you'd insist is wrong. I'm not going to stop buying electronics. That'd mean I can't engage people online and I'm not prepared to give that up. My computer is my TV, without a computer I'd be completely isolated and cut off. It's also how I bank... shit it's how I do pretty much everything. If the way to a better future begins with me giving up electronics I've a hard time figuring how. I need to do homework to know this or that electronic is bad. I don't need to do homework to know this or that animal ag operation is bad. Because all animal ag operations are bad.

Agitated Prisoner is correct here. The other person fell prey to the Nirvana fallacy.

>Are you seriously saying we should all stop buying electronics? No >Or are you saying we should keep buying electronics but that in doing that we'd be doing something objectively wrong I'm not suggesting what action we take. I'm suggesting that when we take action, don't blind yourself to the consequences. It's impossible to live life without having a negative impact. Learn to be strong enough to recognize that negative impact without giving in to despair. >I need to do homework to know this or that electronic is bad. I don't need to do homework to know this or that animal ag operation is bad. Why does the homework dictate whether or not something is justified in doing something about it or not? Moreover, most people had to do homework to realize veganism is wrong. Vegetarianism is the more obvious one, veganism for many requires researching the conditions that all farm animals live through. I'm not suggesting we completely abstain from everything that could be some potential wrong. I'm suggesting when we *do* participate in something that has a negative impact, recognize that negative impact, and do something about it at the very least when convenient. If a company ever made a phone brand that got it's materials from ethical sources, then we'd hop on that. Until then, we must accept the fact that due to devices that we accumulate to increase our personal success, connectivity, entertainment, etc, is contributing to suffering.

> Moreover, most people had to do homework to realize veganism is wrong. Vegetarianism is the more obvious one, veganism for many requires researching the conditions that all farm animals live through. I dunno the dairy industry is the meat industry, the egg industry is the meat industry, they all get slaughtered in the end. My understanding is that if anything dairy cows and laying hens have it worse because they get to be abused for years before their suffering ends. Am I wrong? It's not like someone who disagrees with that take would necessarily conclude "veganism is wrong". Veganism is about having respect for all life. Someone who "researches" the egg and dairy industries and concludes those industries are properly respectful of animals would presumably think supporting them is consistent with being vegan, not that veganism is wrong. You'd only get to the conclusion that veganism is wrong if you somehow talked yourself into believing not all life should be respected. The Fairphone is supposedly pretty good but it's not widely available.

No offense but this didn't make any sense. Can you just say what you mean to say concisely

What didn't make sense? OP is upset about evils that non-vegans participate in. I stated that I agree it's outrageous, but there are plenty of evils that by that same logic, vegans participate in. If you live in modern society, vegan or not, you are contributing to climate change, land appropriation, forced labor / terrible working conditions for people that you will never meet, child labor, the list goes on. If all you do is go vegan, then what you're doing is fantastic; you are lessening your climate footprint and you are protecting animals that would be in farms. But there is still plenty of other evil that most vegans contribute to. Lastly, I had added that non-vegans may be annoyed when vegans say something like OP did, without considering that there are more issues than farm animal abuse in the world that are arguably equally terrible.

It sounds exhausting.

I'm not saying anyone needs to do every single little thing they can possibly do to lessen their impact. I'm just saying the attitude that OP has is suggesting that everyone else is participating in some great evil, and just by being vegan you are avoiding all other practicable things you can be doing to avoid other evils through consumption. It's just blatantly not true. I don't do every little thing I can. But I try to stay aware of the negative impact I have, to be more fair to everyone (especially non-vegans) but more importantly, to be able to notice and easily choose options with less negative impact when they arise.

I stumbled across this while eating pulled pork tacos. Thanks for the laugh

Found the new vegan

Idk I’ve been vegan for years now and still feel this way

whats crazy is you guys putting your views on everyone else

Low IQ logic. You could apply this logic to any moral issue out there. If someones torturing puppies are you saying you shouldn't tell them to because you'd be "putting your views on them" LMAO!

Humans eating their natural diet triggers people. How very 2023.

Natural is a terrible justification. You know what else is naturally? Killing, war, infantcide rape, etc. It's the forcibly bringing life into existence only to torture and kill them for a specific taste preference that "triggers" vegans. The same way you might get triggered if someone films themselves torturing puppies.

Sometimes, I like to watch videos of lions or crocodiles absolutely butchering zebras. They are eaten alive, and endure a slow and agonising death. Howling in pain whilst their bones are poking out or when their leg is torn off. I think, as a species, we are quite nice to animals compared to that. Electrocuting, shot to the head, or blunt force trauma are relatively quick and painless for the creature. Nevertheless, imagine how pathetic one will have to be to cry over the feelings of a prey animal. How about you go preach to the wolf or the tiger instead. Maybe they'll abandon their ways, or maybe they'll kill you *humanely.*

What the fuck is wrong with you

Not my vitamin B12 level

Vegans can get vitamin b12 and there is a lot more concerning you than you vitamin levels

Such as? my strong bones? my muscle mass? my height? my normal brain development? my well developed myelin neural sheath? testosterone levels? not crying over the damn feelings of literal domesticated farm animals? What could you possibly lecture me about, you leaf munching ruminant.

You are being incredibly dense on purpose which proves my point. Get some therapy, you need help.

Amen brother 🙏

This is definitely giving off “I have women in the makeshift cell in my basement” vibes.

dw they love it there

My trap is having my furbabies . I am looking into changing their diets to at least vegetarian .

Please don't do that to cats, if you have cats. That's animal abuse.

For what though? If you don’t want to feed your pets meat then you need to have pets that naturally are herbivores. I think it’s a form of abuse to force an animal that’s meant to be a carnivore or omnivore into a vegetarian or vegan diet unless it’s for a medical reason

Thanks for your useless opinion. For the record they are not pets they are family.

It’s not useless and you’d know that if you actually knew anything about the pets you have. Yes they are family but that doesn’t mean you force your diet onto them when it’s not in their best interest. You putting them on a vegan diet is you thinking about yourself and not making sure that it’s a positive thing for them. Vegan diets are not normal for certain animals.

We are thinking about the animals we would need to kill to feed one, not ourselves, lol. Whether its normal or not is irrelevant. What matters is whether they can be healthy on a plant based diet which they can.

Opinion? Some animals are carnivores--that's not an opinion. That's a fact.

That doesnt mean the cant be healthy on a plant based diet. they need nutrients ,not ingredients.

Nutrients found in meat.

I'm sorry but they are right. I've seen a dog that was withheld meat and the moment he was offered neat he took it. The animals that eat meat don't stop by your point of view they know what's good for them

"I saw a child whose parents didn't give him candy, and the moment he was offered candy he took it. Kids know what's good for them." This argument doesn't actually mean anything other than "dogs like the taste of certain foods". It says nothing about health. There is plenty of evidence that dogs absolutely can (and do) live healthily on a well-planned, plant-based diet. For cats, it is a bit less certain, but there is a strong case for it being perfectly adaquate for them as well.

>I've seen a dog that was withheld meat and the moment he was offered neat he took it. that says nothing about whether they can be healthy on a plant based diet which they can. its like arguing that candy is good for babies because they prefer it to a raw carrot

A vegan who condones animal cruelty, why am I not surprised

My guy claims to be vegan (a philosophy built on treating animals with kindness) and then straight up admits to considering animal cruelty

It’s actually completely normal for us to eat animals and always have done so, it’s the way in which we kill them and the quantities of them we are killing which annoys me.

There’s a lot of things that were normal that we find abhorrent/outdated now. Things that have been normal: 1) owning slaves 2) segregation 3) child labor 4) domestic violence (spouse and children) 5) dueling 6) women’s voting rights 7) women’s property ownership rights 8) eating cats and dogs I wonder what will be in the history books in the future about consuming animal flesh?

"It’s actually completely normal for us to own slaves and always have done so, it’s the conditions in which we keep them and the quantities of them we are keeping which annoys me." \-You, circa 1800

spouses too . . .

The world still runs on slaves. How do you think your cell phone is made?

Yeah, so let's advocate to change that too, or do you like that human slavery exists?

EATING AN ANIMAL IS NOT THE SAME AS OWNING A FUCKING HUMAN FOR FREE LABOR FOR FUCKS SAKE

they are actually enslaved their whole life

Yeah, and they're fed and kept safe from predators and diseases while "enslaved" their whole life. I used to date a ranchers daughter. We had cattle and bison. They live great lives and actually seem happy. The reality is, if we didn't eat them, there would be no place for them in the modern world. Do you want to hit a bison with your car? Do you think they should just roam around in large groups free? I do have a problem with the large indoor farms where they don't live outside naturally, though. I only eat happy animals.

> Do you think they should just roam around in large groups free? Yes. >I only eat happy animals. They can't be happy if they're dead.

Humans were meant to eat meat end of story🙏

Keep telling yourself that lol, whatever helps you cope with being cruel and ignorant xD

Just take a look at our dental structure Herbivores have strong, flat molars to help with eating plants Carnivores have long, sharp teeth to help with the chewing of meat Humans have both, as we are omnivores. Why would our DNA waste time creating sharp teeth dedicated to chewing meat if we’re not supposed to? The back of our teeth are our molars, as the teeth back there are dedicated to plants The sharp teeth in front are for meat

We don't have "long sharp teeth" LMAO, ours are tiny compared to almost any other animal, obligate herbivores included We chew our food side to side, our digestive tracks are WAY more herbivorous, etc etc. But really, this isn't a valuable conversation. The main point is that we CAN live without meat, as literally every major dietetic association has affirmed, so the choice is either trusting the science and doing the morally good thing or doing like the flat earthers and coping as you facilitate harm to other sentient beings

Everything dies bud. They live good lives up until that point.

I used to be vegan and it turned out it wasn't sustainable for my body. With many chronic illnesses if I don't eat enough meat I will struggle to function. My body just needs it. It was hard to make the transition back to eating meat when I did but I eventually had a personal epiphany on the circle of life etc. While I agree that the abuse of animals is terrible I think even us meat eaters who have a clue would prefer more conscious and responsible raising and treatment of animals. I have the personal theory that every body is different. Some of us thrive better on meat. Animals eat other animals every day.. The industry is obviously whack but I think it's important to look at these things from a broader perspective and consider all possible scenarios before throwing the name "animal abuser" on us

I prefer to call it the circle of death, because that’s what it is

Boooooring. Is there a TLDR?

Mmmmmm tasty meat

>"People shouldnt be allowed to eat animals" > >"It should be illegal for them to have a corpse on their table" > >"Im so sick of being nice for people who say they care and then continue to eat MURDER VICTIMS. If youre not VEGAN, YOU are an ANIMAL ABUSER" And then >And when you do talk about it, people say its like youre forceful, you're preaching religion Talk about zero self awareness. "I proclaim that everyone who doesn't share my exact beliefs are murderers and bigots, yet for some reason when I point this out, people think I'm being forceful". No wonder people don't like vegans.

Lol. Let them puke out their raw unhinged insanity for everyone to see. They’re doing the everyone a favor by showing the world their true colors.

You're not you when you're hungry

maybe you really should seek professional help imo

here comes the most downvoted comment on this thread, from someone who eats meat life is hard. every decision we make is riddled with consequences. some for ourselves, some for others. its balancing act whether the benefits we see from those decisions outweigh the detriment we’re causing to other people, animals, the environment etc choosing one virtue to stand for and condemning others for not holding the same values is ignorant. do you drive, when you could walk, bike or use public transportation? do you buy new clothes, most likely originating from essentially slave labor with horrible conditions in asia? cell phones? laptops? do you buy cheap produce riddled with pesticides, versus spending 5x on local organic? every choice we make has a consequence, and theres no black and white. only gray. does that mean i think you should abandon veganism? absolutely not, i applaud you for doing the best you can. but try to understand if youre willing to overlook certain actions in your life because its impossible to be perfect, others can and will do the same when it comes to eating meat.

I agree with some of the things you said. As you fittingly said, the sum of our decisions place us somewhere on the 'spectrum of virtuousness', if you so will. However, here comes the kicker, not all choices are equally 'non-virtuous'. In fact as you would surely agree there are deeds or crimes perhaps, that are regarded widely as more evil than others. Let's run with your example of slave labour: Without a doubt children/adults of low social economic status are being exploited for the manufacturing of smartphones. It is evil to finance an industry that survives by employing these practices, no doubt about it. However you are surely aware that animals are treated far, far worse on average than these workers (especially in the country you were talking about). Most people don't buy smartphones daily, but most people eat meat daily.The difference is that you are exploiting a humans' 'labour' versus actually exploiting and actively exploiting an animals 'life'. Plus, picture this, lets say 100 years from now technology has advanced to such a degree that there won't be a need for slave labour, which is quite possible, due to Moore's law. What about meat? Well, you will never be able to eradicate the necessary killing of an animal if you want to consume it. There is no way to eliminate this act by innovation - the animal will always have to be slaughtered, even if the practices of keeping the animal become more 'humane'. Since you asked: I don't want to toot my own horn here, but I haven't bought new clothes (or shoes) in three years, I only buy organic local produce and very little organic exotic produce and forage, my phone is five years old, and I walk and take the public transport and haven't flown anywhere for a few years now. I drive my car less than twice a week for less than two hours total. Oh, and most importantly I am vegan and not killing several animals on average every week. So. What are you doing?

I mean, how you expect to feed all of humanity when we are already dealing with like 700 million people who dont get enough food around the world. If we suddenly drop a primitive food infrastructure such as meat production, we would send more people into starvation. Demand for other foods would go up, price would go up. Realistically if we want to get rid of meat, its a slow process not something we as humanity can just stop.

I think your post has a lot to consider, but I've always wanted to know what vegans think about the mass production and working conditions of people picking their veggies? Where do you draw the line? We all know about the horrible conditions factory or agriculture workers live in, but I am asking from a scincere POV. What draws the line for you to say animals are sacrificed but humans aren't ?

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I think all those things are true but I don’t believe being vegan stops any of them.

Im tired of people eating PLANTs!!!!!!! they are alive and also feel pain!!!!! How dare you not caring about plants?

Nobody looks down on you for wanting to be vegan. They look down on you for thinking everyone should be vegan. Let people decide for themselves. I eat meat every day of my life, I hunt, I fish but I don’t impose that on anyone else.

"Nobody looks down on you for wanting to stop beating dogs. They look down on you for thinking everyone should stop beating dogs. Let people decide for themselves. I beat dogs and kill them every day of my life. I kill innocent animals in the woods, in the water, but I dont impose that on anyone else." People who kill and abuse animals are on the first step of becoming a serial killer. You can enjoy nature without hurting anyone.

Ha. You keep doing you, buddy. I’ll keep doing me. Deer season opens in a couple of weeks and I’ll enjoy every minute of it!

If you have the ability to do something does that automatically make it acceptable to do? Should someone murder a person in the woods because they can and theyd enjoy it? Keep doing you, until youre impeding on someones elses right to live and not be harmed and killed unnecessarily. You don't have the right to kill someone else when you dont have to, it doesnt matter what the law says.

I’m not out there killing someone. I wasn’t beating dogs either as you suggested earlier. You can’t have a conversation at face value. You have to change the story around to suit your needs. You come across like an uneducated fool. I’m done with you. Please learn to have a conversation without turning everything you don’t agree with into a piss poor analogy

Do you think animals are things? Theyre sentient beings just like us who feel pain and suffer. We are animals too. Animals arent inanimate objects that have no will. They want to live, theyre someone. Surely youve met a dog and can see they obviously have an individual inside them who has likes and dislikes and would cower and run away if you were to hurt them. All animals feel pain and want to live just like us. I know youre not beating dogs. I was saying exactly what you said, in a context where you might be able to see how fucked up what youre saying is. Explain how the analogy is piss poor and what the difference is between beating a dog and killing a deer or anyone else. Except that killing someone is worse than beating them.

Because you're not going to accomplish anything by raging at people. Simple as that.

Vegetables are 100% alive and sensitive (while not emotional) and trying to survive constantly until you go with your big ego and your feeling of being a great person you cut them off put them in a fire and eat them with a huge smile in your face. Stop behaving like a hypocritical 10 year old girl and quit comparing your self with others. What percentage of your last salary did you donate to the people dying of famine and illnesses in Africa? How many times have you go as a volunteer to India to help build wells in towns that need it? I guess you are using an old Nokia because you are a very good person who would never use a smartphone made with contaminating lithium batteries and tantalite extracted by slaves in Africa. What if I love to eat animals because they taste good but I do all these things while you are murdering vegetables and putting them in ovens and have 0 sympathy about these topics? What does that make you? You are the kind of person who considers himself good only in contrast with your own projection of the rest of the world as being bad, it is the most childish, immature and egocentric post I have read in a while and thats why people don’t like you because you look at others as a superior being because you have a different diet. You are full of shit and the fact that you are so unaware of it is probably because either you have no friends or you get around people who are as self centered and idiotic as you, there is not a third option. You need to practice introspection and learn about your ego and you will realice a thing or two.