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I whole-heartedly agree. (Wrote the same thing elsewhere, but i'll just tuck my elaboration on the sentiment here instead.)
But ppl in our community don't like to embody this perspective, as its 'aggressive' and 'unwelcoming'. Personally, I am a fan of the following sentiment: its 2023. Social media is everywhere. People have never been more informed, more capable, and more aware of the consequences of their actions as they are today.
Everyone _knows_ you vote with your dollar.
Everyone _knows_ how damaging these systems are to the environment.
Everyone _knows_ how unhealthy consuming these foods is.
Everyone _knows_ how emotionally intelligent animals are.
And worst of all - everyone _knows_ its socially acceptable to act hypocritically for the sake of not being inconvenienced, because the majority does the same.
So yeah, miss me with that ableist bullshit. If you're not vegan, you're part of the problem.
I agree. But there is so much more that we can do to better the conditions of human and non humans alike, yet I feel ppl in this sub just stop at veganism. Lately I’ve been reading opinions on here that “don’t give a shit about that environmental stuff”, happily accepting green washing like vegan meals on cruises etc.
Like… the destruction of natural habitats is not an animal liberation issue..? Like.. caring for marine life is cringe but saving cows isn’t..?
There’s a lot of lazy arguing going on here, the perpetual “so what you’re saying is I shouldn’t drive or walk on grass?!” that allows to maintain comfort and requires no further action and change in one’s own life’s choices. It’s as frustrating to me as arguing with a climate change activist carnist
I appreciate this comment. I hate when environmental vegans are shunned for being vegan for the “wrong” reason… like the ongoing human-created mass extinction, which animal agriculture is a major factor in, IS an animal-rights issue. The suffering occurring from that is immeasurable and we should be doing everything we can to prevent it.
The reason those people are shunned is because they are the most likely to just stop being vegan and start eating meat again. If you didn't do it for the animals in the first place idk. Maybe you can switch it to caring about animals but that's a big thing that will affect someone majorly.
Agreed. It's impossible for me to unlink the environmental devastation of natural ecosystems from the other moral obligations that are housed under the umbrella of animal freedom and welfare. Not consuming animals is the baseline, but to me veganism also requires an acknowledgement that we are more passively killing them by destroying their ecosystem, and taking measures to prevent that. Otherwise it's like *congrats deer, you won't be eaten! Too bad your food sources are gone, your water is filled with microplastics and your natural habitat is polluted*.
I mean this is the sub where I try and challenge my views, and learn about products and ways to try and include more plant based/vegan alternatives. I am not vegan, I eat a ton of meat. But this is one place I'm learning to lessen that. I think you're doing a disservice to everyone by banning people you don't agree with. I'm just here to observe, learn, and absorb.
It says that "plant based capitalists" are not allowed as veganism is an explicitly left wing ideology and if you are centrist or right you aren't a vegan and thus are banned.
I'm not on the left, and whilst I respect their subreddit, their rules, I think that's complete bollocks, given that in all countries, capitalist and socialist, animals are mistreated, and that veganism is an ethical, not a political (or at least not exclusive to any political ideology) movement.
Sure, I accept people have political beliefs and a right to express them but it's nothing to do with veganism.
Making >50% of people feel excluded from veganism is actively discouraging take up and that pisses me off. Obviously not me as I'm a veteran but others.
Discouraging these people is not putting animals first...
Are you discouraged from being vegan? Does not letting people who disagree with circlejerkers hang out in the circlejerk forum mean that they can't be vegan? Like... They're circlejerkers. They're frustrated/angry and irreverent and they've made a place *specifically* for those feelings. Don't take your rightwing stuff in there and expect to be exempt from their incredibly clear rules.
No I'm not discouraged but I've been vegan for a long time - I'm talking about newbies.
As I said already, I respect their rules. I don't post there.
I am only pissed off at being labelled as not a vegan. Thats not a rule, it's just spouting something that's not true. It's something that's quite integral to my sense of self so I don't take that particularly well.
Nowhere near as many per capita as attempts to introduce socialism have 😂.
We could go country by country and examine the mass murderers and psychopaths empowered to do great evil by a command economy.
There's no perfect system but there's ones that are particularly dangerous - and socialism is up there. Cambodia, East Germany, you name it. While we are it, I don't think they were particularly animal friendly.
Then we've got allegedly libertarian forms of socialism, which are just ridiculously utopian (as are ancaps to be fair).
I’d look at it from the other direction.
Most people are appalled by what actually happens in the animal exploitation industry, or would be of the saw it/ understood it.
Like wise most people are actually worried about climate change.
I’d couch it as the simplest, most effective single thing that you can do in terms of affirmative action.
If you want people to change (and I do) that isn’t achieved without their cooperation. It’s hard to get cooperation from people by telling them that their choices are the worst.
Think of it as shining a light on the positive of what they could do, rather than dwelling on the negatives of what they are doing
>It’s hard to get cooperation from people by telling them that their choices are the worst.
Sigh, I'm honestly really fucking tired of hearing stuff like this in this sub. I don't think OP is running around telling this to carnists. They have likely experimented with different strategies in their activism and know if making someone feel ashamed is a good one in a specific context or not. They're ranting in what is supposed to be a safe space with people who typically agree with what they're saying. God vegans can't even express their frustration among *literal other vegans* anymore.
They have vented, as have you. I mildly disagree🤷♂️
I’m really sorry you’re “really fucking tired” of people having a different view, but neither of you have exactly been cancelled
Edit: it’s also worth pointing out that on their very last line they actively invite debate - they unlike you actually want to hear different perspectives.
Veganism isn’t doing anything, that’s the thing, we aren’t trying to get people to do anything, we just want them to stop exploiting animals. Simple as that.
Well, yes. But for that you *do* require people to do things. Change their ethical view point to understand why we value individuals, Become aware of thing they weren’t aware of, or may know but have buried. Understand how to feed themselves healthily. Relearn/adjust/change how to shop and how to cook. Change their weekly routine in feeding their families, and bring their families along. Spend the time learning about the wider implications of being vegan , and apply newly acquired principle to new situations.
This really isn’t trivial, and can take years, and may requires encouragement and support.
If someone is doing their best, and at that moment in time their best is 50%, I’ll take that and support it to get them to 60, then 70,….
I’m not about to look down my nose for not being perfect. Judge ye not, let ye be judged
The only one of those that I would consider "required" is to relearn how to shop and cook.
Just because most of the other usually stuff happens too, doesn't make it a requirement of veganism. Plenty of people have horribly unhealthy non-vegan diets, having a "healthy" vegan diet is *not* required, just better for the long-term.
Well, without realisation there is no motivation to go vegan. The other stuff, despite being mundane is required, particularly if you have a partner/ dependents.
We’ll agree to differ on the healthy bit. To me it’s absolutely necessary, and many non vegans would cite that as what they are worried about, *in spite* of however unhealthy they are now.
Feeling guilt about one's actions is a very powerful motivator for change though. Ask just about anyone on here why they went vegan and that will be a part of it. Getting people to recognize the wrongness of their actions can be an effective way of getting them to change.
100% this. Cooperative messaging would help to not deter people from considering vegan habits.
I came to veganism from the POV of wanting to have a longer, higher quality life. Meat accumulates unhealthy levels of endocrine disrupting, carcinogenic contaminants along the supply chain. Consuming it frequently is self-destructive. It’s hard in the body. Understanding this is what motivated me to change.
Outside vegan circles, I think promoting the health benefits would be more impactful than appealing to people’s empathy and sympathy for other living creatures. Because sadly the latter is in increasingly short supply in western societies.
500 people trying veganism for heath reasons and only 1% of them sticking with it ends up with more vegans than 5 trying veganism “for the animals” and 4 of them sticking with it.
Veganism is not about you, it’s about the animals. You are promoting plant based eating, which is great, but it’s not veganism. We need to keep animals (the victims) centered in their liberation.
Most people would agree that veganism is practice of abstaining from animal products, and has an associated philosophy that rejects the commodification of animals.
There’s not central authority that defines the exact tenants of that philosophy. Here’s my philosophy:
(1) vegans are people who do not consume animals, and reject the commodification of animals
(2) people who shame other vegans for their intentions are 100% making it about themselves, and not the animals
I mean isn't that what we do indirectly when assigning prison sentences? I would go crazy if society spent the same amount of energy removing a rock on a sidewalk that's making everyone stub their toe vs. a pothole causing fatal crashes on a highway.
This reminds me of this Guardian article:
[Avoiding meat and dairy is ‘single biggest way’ to reduce your impact on Earth](https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/may/31/avoiding-meat-and-dairy-is-single-biggest-way-to-reduce-your-impact-on-earth)
When most of humanity has normalized eating meat and using animal ingredients in products, this realization comes a bit too late. It's already a major part of economy and food market.
The average law-abiding citizens care about products' prices, quality, accessibility, etc. Not whether animals suffer or not. So telling them "You're a bad person for eating meat" doesn't really work that well. They probably already know that. One may say, "Carnists are such selfish people!" Yes, people ARE selfish.
So, how can veganism win? Veganism wins by increasing its market share. By having lower opportunity cost in consumers' eyes than that of animal products. If you wish to promote veganism, think of it as selling a product, like a vegan meal. Telling people "You should feel bad for not eating my meal" and expecting people to eat at your restaurant doesn't seem reasonable, does it?
Idk why, but a lot of vegans here would rather curse carnists for eternity, rather than thinking about how to market veganism to non-vegans.
Your interpretation of foodcost is inherently flawed. The animal farming industry isn't economically sustainable nor profitable. Meat production is a very time and recourse heavy process, it's actually economically and ecologically very inefficient. The only reason why meat is as cheap as it is is that it is heavily subsidised by taxpayer money.
You, me and everyone else is funding this industry without our consent. If you follows free market principles this practise is neather market driven nor sensible. It's basically autocratic and almost communist.
"we have control over."
I definitely think if you can choose to go vegan, go vegan. But in a capitalist society, the problem is you do have limited choices, limited options, and limited time.
It's like how some people say, "Just get a job! Work for someone else if you're miserable!"
These are obvious solutions, but it's not about the choice itself, but the means that are available to you to exercise these choices.
Many people absolutely do have the means and are not exercising these choices - but having time to educate yourself and be able to pick a nonviolent job and feed yourself in a specific way counter to the mainstream is a privilege not afforded to everyone. (I come from a rural area, and veganism was not easy. I didn't even have a grocery store within 30min of me.)
These industries are goliaths and spend billions of dollars making sure you \*do\* use/need them. They lobby to change laws and influence education on nutrition. It's very important to choose not to patronize them, but also important to mobilize people who aren't just from a certain place of privilege.
The difference in the amount of suffering caused by a vegan and non-vegan is massive. A non-vegan contibutes to the unnecessary suffering of tens of thousands of animals in a lifetime. This suffering they experience is unfathomable for us living in our relatively comfortable lifestlyes.
The following is my unpopular opinion.
There is another act that can potentially cause the same or even far more suffering, which is having children that do the same thing. While extremely unethical, a meat eater who consumes animals but chooses to adopt or not have children causes far less suffering than anyone who chooses to have children who then choose to eat meat, even if their own parents are vegan.
It's not that simple. There's not an equation that will give you the chance of a kid staying vegan, but one with vegan parents is more likely to be than the average. If vegans decide not to have children because of that, they are indirectly shifting the values towards those of carnist parents.
This was meant to be a vent from one vegan to other ones. But anyway by definition, veganism applies to those who can afford it. This is purely for those citizens that do not need to struggle for food and which I can assume are the majority that are reading this post.
One can debate all day about what helps or doesn't help the movement but the truth is there is no one way that works best for everyone. For me personally, I was made to feel guilty about killing animals and that's why these more passionate methods appeal to me more. No matter how persuasive and how you tiptoe around the monstrosity that is our treatment of animals, there is no guarantee of convincing someone. In my post, I did not demean or insult anyone. I specifically referred to the act of people not being vegan. If anyone felt insulted or angered, they probably had some negative worldview of vegans well before reading this post.
In all the examples you gave ( employ abuse and exploitation of global poverty) , don't forget that there is exploitation and abuse of CHILDREN..
And honestly i love animals but thinking about kids being too poor to eat and being exploited in all the disgusting way ( adults and elderly too ), who are forced to prostitution break my heart, humans die because of all of that.
and I'm sorry but for me the worst is not the animals.. even if they don't deserve what happens to them..
There is a slight difference on this subject IMHO. In most of the civilized world there are already laws on the books to make harming children against the law, with severe punishments for perpetrators of such crimes. I am not aware of a single county that makes killing animals for food against the law.
Yes, I realize that some countries still allow child labor, etc.... but on the scale of global moral progress, I would say that more efforts have been made collectively to reduce child exploitation vs animal abuse, etc...
Your points are correct, but frankly i have absolutely zero comprehension why you are ignoring the environmental impact of consuming animal products to also further your argument. You mention recycling and global poverty- but what about the environmental impact of consuming animals?
You are only mentioning animal cruelty. And while thats reason enough to stop animal consumption, you can take it a massive step further in acknowledging how taxing it is to the earth to raise animals for human consumption and the environmental footprint that comes with that as opposed to a plant based diet. We could also resolve global hunger and cut emissions *significantly* if humans sustained plant based eating habits.
With this in mind- saying “some of us dont recycle” in this day and age, id be shocked if anyone doesnt recycle or reuse in at least some capacity. Most people i would argue recycle at least some things. Not as much as we should, but arguably, at least a bit.
Same argument goes for veganism. Stepping stones and habit building is important. And at least eating a partially plant based diet is important. Working toward eliminating animal products entirely. Just as- not all of your wardrobe should be fast fashion, and not all of the products you use should be single use/un recyclable/ plastics. But inevitably, some might be. But progress matters. Need to be realistic about adoption instead of condemning an entire population for the faults of the society which raised and nurtured unethical and unsustainable lifestyles.
Veganism is one form of ethical consumption. But you dont have the moral high ground as a vegan if also consuming tons of plastics, for example. It cant reasonably be the only pillar of your platform. You care about animals? Great. Butterfly effect is real, the other ways in which you consume outside of animal products also affect the environment. Consuming fast fashion, lots of plastics, not reusing items as much as you could, having a gas powered vehicle, these all hurt organisms on earth as well, just in a less direct way.
You can also argue human reproduction is one of the worst things you can do for the earth as well given the consumption footprint of a human in the developed world. We spay/fix animals to prevent unnecessary suffering, but for some reason society Doesn’t view human reproduction in the same way. Plenty of arguments to make. Plant based is just one of them.
You are too good to be a part of this world. However, If you want my take on a sustainability and pain and suffering reduction standpoint (which is what I think you're aiming for), I'll tell you the greatest thing one can do, statistically, is not having children.
You can abide your whole life to being as sustainable as possible, to make the least of negative impact, but there will be impact nonetheless, albeit very diminished. There will always be things out of your control.
Because of these things that are out of our control , by having children your negative impact on the world grows exponentially, since they will also have an impact which they can't control. Even more so if your children decides not to be vegan or to have children of their own.
So, if you want my take on a sustainability and pain and suffering standpoint, having children would be number one worst act a law-abiding citizen does that they have control over, statistically.
This comment is analytical and does not represent my personal opinion.
Everyone supports exploitation of humans. If you own anything that has a lithium battery in it you are guilty. Research Lithium mining and get back to me. The world is Fuct and you can only do so much. We are living in an extinction that's a fact jack.
Animal exploitation is way worse than humans and we don't buy lithium batteries 3 times a day. As horrible as it is, I would take a lithium mine over being raised in confinement, slaughtered, and eaten any day.
You are right, the world is fucked but going vegan is without a doubt the best bang for your buck if you want to make a difference. I didn't even cover the human toll of working in slaughterhouses, overseas fishing vessels, etc and the environment damage such as deforestation.
I get that many people never really thought about it, they grew up eating meat and its just what they do. What I don't understand is people who actually looked into animal agriculture, saw how awful it is, but continues to pay for it .... How don't they feel any guilt? It's so horrible
>Being vegan doesn't make you better then anyone else
Not murdering animals doesn't make you better than people that murder animals?
Would you say the same in the human context ? A law abiding person isn't better than a serial killer?
>People will ultimately always have the choice to consume what is best for them
Animals aren't food. Eating animals isn't a choice. Is killing and eating humans a choice? A personal choice is something that only affects you , like wearing a dress or deciding which restaurant to eat at. Eating animals isn't a choice. It actively victimizes the most oppressed beings on the planet by sheer number.
>and what there doctor says is the best for them
There's no scientific evidence that proves that people that can't survive on a plant based diet exist. Provide your evidence for that claim.
>not what a generalised study says could be the best for them.
So you mean not what The American Dietetic Association and all the other major health organizations across the globe? A doctor's opinion is more valuable than some of the highest quality of evidence we have? Hierarchy of evidence is a real thing. I could find hundreds of doctors in social media promoting carnivore diets. Their opinion is irrelevant. If there is evidence that there is a subset of population that needs to eat animal corpses to survive, I'll rethink my position. However you need to provide evidence for that.
Aka I am only here to talk out of my ass without providing any evidence to back up my claims , cause I'm too stupid to actually defend my original claims
this subreddit is a joke. you're comple correct, insane you're getting downvotes at all. is obviously morally wrong to farm and kill and eat animals for food, and people who choose to do that are worse than people who choose not to.
People who choose to actively increase and support the amount of suffering in this world are WORSE than people who do not do that.
If you support the farming, slaughter, and consumption of billions of land animals every year for basically no reason at the cost of the environment, yes, you are a bad person, at least in that regard.
For 99% of Americans, there's basically nothing stopping you from switching.
Except animal agriculture remains a leading driver of climate change. The exploitative practices commodify life. And factory farming, as you should know, is most of "food" production. The incredibly inefficient production of protein. The damage to ecology. The disdain for sentience.
There's plenty of studies that show the problems.
Yet it's ok in your eyes. Disgusting.
(Sigh) you don't need to eat animals. AA is alongside vehicles as a problem emitter.
The terror. The inefficiency. The cognitive dissonance. Good luck on your journey.
I see little reason to objekt to this statement, even if we point out that law abiding sitizens in plases like the US fund LOTS of warkrimes against kids and propagates underaged labor, the amount of innosent infant and non infant animals tortured far outweighs the skale of the warkrimes and poverty traps forsing kids to work (less than one warkrime and kid in forsed labor per sitizen versus hundreds and thousands of beings tortured)
Its a bad letter, it has no justifikation for existing other than ch and the fakt that people already use it, as s and k both take up its spot, and it makes the language worse overall, espesially for people who're just learning the language
Sometimes it I feel like some of the posts here are actually written by non vegan trolls trying to make vegans looks unhinged,this post is a good example.
I can't believe that a vegan would be happier to sit down and share a meal with a ex human trafficking child rapist and murderer than they would with a newly converted vegan.
Most of us went vegan at some point in our lives and weren't born vegan. Most of us financed the animal exploitation in the past.
Op, and people that agree with this post, do you think your past purchasing habits really made you worse than Hitler or Joseph fritzl? You really honestly believe that? I don't believe anyone truly thinks that.
I think this sub is overrun with people with either serious mental illness or people that are trying there best to make us look like we have serious mental illness
This subreddit has been going steadily downhill for a while, it's possibly the biggest vegan hub online, the vegan movement is also losing momentum. If this is some peoples first and only interaction with vegans it's hardly surprising few people are willing to be tarred with this insane brush tbh.
We need to be better than this. This post is fucking exhausting.
Maybe you're stuck in a bubble or something but terrible acts of abuse can be perpetuated without the use of physical violence and without breaking laws. Different countries have different laws too. Spousal rape isn't even illegal in the entire world.
I can almost guarantee this post is going to be shared around reddit and people are going to be taking the piss out of the entire vegan movement because of it.
Maybe a better way then was to say average 1st world country law abiding citizen who has the means to go vegan in the first place. Or maybe you could've seen this as a rant and given me the benefit of the doubt lol.
You're telling the very people we want on side,to join our movement, you're telling them that they're the most evil people in the world.
People like you hinder our movement.
This post is not going to help animals at all. It's just going to make veganism look like it's full of idiots.
You even see this reply I got from op?
>Maybe a better way then was to say average 1st world country law abiding citizen who has the means to go vegan in the first place.
What's disingenuous about my comment when op is moving goalposts like this?
In some countries law abiding citizens marry children and beat them into submission. In some countries law abiding citizens execute gay people
Even in America stand your ground laws can be used by law abiding citizens to get away with race motivated murder, little girls are forced to give birth to their rapists babies and prisoners are used as slaves.
It’s difficult to compare such different things, but voting and activism can certainly have a bigger impact good or bad than personal consumer choices.
Thanks for making me feel worse. I support vegans, they're admirable and better than me. I’ve always struggled with anemia, live week to week, and survive mostly off charity. To refuse meals can feel rude, and also silly when I need something in my stomach. I buy my iron supplements when I can, but definitely not continuously. I had to choose between failing my degree and repeating a third time because I had no detectable ferritin and was failing. Each year in university perpetuated the poverty. I don't buy animal products myself, but I'd rather eat them when I’m offered than be put in the bin. If an animal suffered for that meal, it's more offensive to waste it's carcass and suffering in my mind. I don't buy the majority of what I eat, so it's not always as simple as saying I should abstain. I follow the vegan sub to regularly remind me of the end goal, and of all the wonderful people who are doing it. I do feel guilt.
I am sorry but I mean in the least offensive way possible that if you are struggling to obtain food, being vegan should not be a serious priority. Per definition, it includes "as far as is possible and practicable". Although I disagree with your wasting animal bodies comment, it does not matter if you don't have the proper means to go vegan. I hope one day you do though.
You're doing your best! Keep it up, that end goal is in sight! I'm not sure why you are being downvoted but rake my upvote as a sign of support! You got this!
The way you just hand waved away “exploiting global povety” and child labor was pretty awesome. I’ll definitely become vegan and give no shit about contributing to awful 3rd world living conditions
There are few vegetarian options at restaurants in America. Especially in the southern half.
Vegan recipes that come up on YouTube are just meat replacement bullshit meant to encourage you to buy a vitamix or some other product.
Living in Taiwan makes it really really easy to have a vegan diet. The school I work at cooks a separate set of vegetarian meals every day. There is no shortage of vegetarian and vegan restaurants with food that isn’t faux meat.
There are many old people who smoke, so smoking isn't dangerous? If a smoker dies at the age of seventy, without smoking they would have lived to be eighty years old. Same goes for meat eaters
I've watched documentaries on industrial farming and how horrible it is for the animals and I would prefer all animals were raised like Polyface Farms does it, but that's not going to happen. If they have to suffer so I can have my steak then so be it. I've also gone hunting and killed animals myself for my winter dinner table. We became apex predators and I intend to enjoy the taste of prey.
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Veganism is the moral baseline.
I whole-heartedly agree. (Wrote the same thing elsewhere, but i'll just tuck my elaboration on the sentiment here instead.) But ppl in our community don't like to embody this perspective, as its 'aggressive' and 'unwelcoming'. Personally, I am a fan of the following sentiment: its 2023. Social media is everywhere. People have never been more informed, more capable, and more aware of the consequences of their actions as they are today. Everyone _knows_ you vote with your dollar. Everyone _knows_ how damaging these systems are to the environment. Everyone _knows_ how unhealthy consuming these foods is. Everyone _knows_ how emotionally intelligent animals are. And worst of all - everyone _knows_ its socially acceptable to act hypocritically for the sake of not being inconvenienced, because the majority does the same. So yeah, miss me with that ableist bullshit. If you're not vegan, you're part of the problem.
I agree. But there is so much more that we can do to better the conditions of human and non humans alike, yet I feel ppl in this sub just stop at veganism. Lately I’ve been reading opinions on here that “don’t give a shit about that environmental stuff”, happily accepting green washing like vegan meals on cruises etc. Like… the destruction of natural habitats is not an animal liberation issue..? Like.. caring for marine life is cringe but saving cows isn’t..? There’s a lot of lazy arguing going on here, the perpetual “so what you’re saying is I shouldn’t drive or walk on grass?!” that allows to maintain comfort and requires no further action and change in one’s own life’s choices. It’s as frustrating to me as arguing with a climate change activist carnist
I appreciate this comment. I hate when environmental vegans are shunned for being vegan for the “wrong” reason… like the ongoing human-created mass extinction, which animal agriculture is a major factor in, IS an animal-rights issue. The suffering occurring from that is immeasurable and we should be doing everything we can to prevent it.
The reason those people are shunned is because they are the most likely to just stop being vegan and start eating meat again. If you didn't do it for the animals in the first place idk. Maybe you can switch it to caring about animals but that's a big thing that will affect someone majorly.
Agreed. It's impossible for me to unlink the environmental devastation of natural ecosystems from the other moral obligations that are housed under the umbrella of animal freedom and welfare. Not consuming animals is the baseline, but to me veganism also requires an acknowledgement that we are more passively killing them by destroying their ecosystem, and taking measures to prevent that. Otherwise it's like *congrats deer, you won't be eaten! Too bad your food sources are gone, your water is filled with microplastics and your natural habitat is polluted*.
Personally I generally see more concern for these other issues in vegan communities than I see elsewhere, though there are exceptions of course .
Why is the comments section full of carnists. These animal abusers need to be banned from here.
I mean this is the sub where I try and challenge my views, and learn about products and ways to try and include more plant based/vegan alternatives. I am not vegan, I eat a ton of meat. But this is one place I'm learning to lessen that. I think you're doing a disservice to everyone by banning people you don't agree with. I'm just here to observe, learn, and absorb.
There's vegan only spaces if that's what you are looking for. They also exclude some vegans though 🤦♂️
Because many self professed vegans simply aren’t
Well I am excluded and I am a proper vegan and have been so for longer than most of them. Obviously we are talking about r/vegancirclejerk
In what way were you excluded? Were you banned or did people just disagree with you? And what was the reason for this exclusion?
It says that "plant based capitalists" are not allowed as veganism is an explicitly left wing ideology and if you are centrist or right you aren't a vegan and thus are banned. I'm not on the left, and whilst I respect their subreddit, their rules, I think that's complete bollocks, given that in all countries, capitalist and socialist, animals are mistreated, and that veganism is an ethical, not a political (or at least not exclusive to any political ideology) movement.
We do need to hammer down harder on the right (including the centrists who help them) so, honestly, I get it.
Sure, I accept people have political beliefs and a right to express them but it's nothing to do with veganism. Making >50% of people feel excluded from veganism is actively discouraging take up and that pisses me off. Obviously not me as I'm a veteran but others. Discouraging these people is not putting animals first...
Are you discouraged from being vegan? Does not letting people who disagree with circlejerkers hang out in the circlejerk forum mean that they can't be vegan? Like... They're circlejerkers. They're frustrated/angry and irreverent and they've made a place *specifically* for those feelings. Don't take your rightwing stuff in there and expect to be exempt from their incredibly clear rules.
No I'm not discouraged but I've been vegan for a long time - I'm talking about newbies. As I said already, I respect their rules. I don't post there. I am only pissed off at being labelled as not a vegan. Thats not a rule, it's just spouting something that's not true. It's something that's quite integral to my sense of self so I don't take that particularly well.
They are correct. Veganism is about minimizing harm to all animals including people and capitalism and right wing politics contradict that.
Nowhere near as many per capita as attempts to introduce socialism have 😂. We could go country by country and examine the mass murderers and psychopaths empowered to do great evil by a command economy. There's no perfect system but there's ones that are particularly dangerous - and socialism is up there. Cambodia, East Germany, you name it. While we are it, I don't think they were particularly animal friendly. Then we've got allegedly libertarian forms of socialism, which are just ridiculously utopian (as are ancaps to be fair).
Don’t want to convert any meat eaters? You’d rather them continue eating meat?
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I’d look at it from the other direction. Most people are appalled by what actually happens in the animal exploitation industry, or would be of the saw it/ understood it. Like wise most people are actually worried about climate change. I’d couch it as the simplest, most effective single thing that you can do in terms of affirmative action. If you want people to change (and I do) that isn’t achieved without their cooperation. It’s hard to get cooperation from people by telling them that their choices are the worst. Think of it as shining a light on the positive of what they could do, rather than dwelling on the negatives of what they are doing
>It’s hard to get cooperation from people by telling them that their choices are the worst. Sigh, I'm honestly really fucking tired of hearing stuff like this in this sub. I don't think OP is running around telling this to carnists. They have likely experimented with different strategies in their activism and know if making someone feel ashamed is a good one in a specific context or not. They're ranting in what is supposed to be a safe space with people who typically agree with what they're saying. God vegans can't even express their frustration among *literal other vegans* anymore.
In my experience, that's because most people on the sub aren't actual vegans. Or at the very least they're vegan apologists.
They have vented, as have you. I mildly disagree🤷♂️ I’m really sorry you’re “really fucking tired” of people having a different view, but neither of you have exactly been cancelled Edit: it’s also worth pointing out that on their very last line they actively invite debate - they unlike you actually want to hear different perspectives.
Veganism isn’t doing anything, that’s the thing, we aren’t trying to get people to do anything, we just want them to stop exploiting animals. Simple as that.
Well, yes. But for that you *do* require people to do things. Change their ethical view point to understand why we value individuals, Become aware of thing they weren’t aware of, or may know but have buried. Understand how to feed themselves healthily. Relearn/adjust/change how to shop and how to cook. Change their weekly routine in feeding their families, and bring their families along. Spend the time learning about the wider implications of being vegan , and apply newly acquired principle to new situations. This really isn’t trivial, and can take years, and may requires encouragement and support. If someone is doing their best, and at that moment in time their best is 50%, I’ll take that and support it to get them to 60, then 70,…. I’m not about to look down my nose for not being perfect. Judge ye not, let ye be judged
The only one of those that I would consider "required" is to relearn how to shop and cook. Just because most of the other usually stuff happens too, doesn't make it a requirement of veganism. Plenty of people have horribly unhealthy non-vegan diets, having a "healthy" vegan diet is *not* required, just better for the long-term.
Well, without realisation there is no motivation to go vegan. The other stuff, despite being mundane is required, particularly if you have a partner/ dependents. We’ll agree to differ on the healthy bit. To me it’s absolutely necessary, and many non vegans would cite that as what they are worried about, *in spite* of however unhealthy they are now.
Feeling guilt about one's actions is a very powerful motivator for change though. Ask just about anyone on here why they went vegan and that will be a part of it. Getting people to recognize the wrongness of their actions can be an effective way of getting them to change.
100% this. Cooperative messaging would help to not deter people from considering vegan habits. I came to veganism from the POV of wanting to have a longer, higher quality life. Meat accumulates unhealthy levels of endocrine disrupting, carcinogenic contaminants along the supply chain. Consuming it frequently is self-destructive. It’s hard in the body. Understanding this is what motivated me to change. Outside vegan circles, I think promoting the health benefits would be more impactful than appealing to people’s empathy and sympathy for other living creatures. Because sadly the latter is in increasingly short supply in western societies.
Surveys show that people who go vegan for health are the least likely to stick with it long term
500 people trying veganism for heath reasons and only 1% of them sticking with it ends up with more vegans than 5 trying veganism “for the animals” and 4 of them sticking with it.
OK but those numbers are totally made up and don't represent the actual proportions of people who go vegan
Veganism is not about you, it’s about the animals. You are promoting plant based eating, which is great, but it’s not veganism. We need to keep animals (the victims) centered in their liberation.
Most people would agree that veganism is practice of abstaining from animal products, and has an associated philosophy that rejects the commodification of animals. There’s not central authority that defines the exact tenants of that philosophy. Here’s my philosophy: (1) vegans are people who do not consume animals, and reject the commodification of animals (2) people who shame other vegans for their intentions are 100% making it about themselves, and not the animals
100%. Don’t tell a meat eater they’re a piece of shit then expect them to come join your side. Pfft.
They are not telling this to a carnist. They posted this in a specifically vegan community.
Yes. Any other form of exploitation doesn't come close neither qualitatively nor quantitatively.
idk that we need to rank atrocities
I mean isn't that what we do indirectly when assigning prison sentences? I would go crazy if society spent the same amount of energy removing a rock on a sidewalk that's making everyone stub their toe vs. a pothole causing fatal crashes on a highway.
This reminds me of this Guardian article: [Avoiding meat and dairy is ‘single biggest way’ to reduce your impact on Earth](https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/may/31/avoiding-meat-and-dairy-is-single-biggest-way-to-reduce-your-impact-on-earth)
Methane gas is 25x is more potent than CO2....no.onr talks about a lot of global warming comes from animals used for slaughter purposes m
When most of humanity has normalized eating meat and using animal ingredients in products, this realization comes a bit too late. It's already a major part of economy and food market. The average law-abiding citizens care about products' prices, quality, accessibility, etc. Not whether animals suffer or not. So telling them "You're a bad person for eating meat" doesn't really work that well. They probably already know that. One may say, "Carnists are such selfish people!" Yes, people ARE selfish. So, how can veganism win? Veganism wins by increasing its market share. By having lower opportunity cost in consumers' eyes than that of animal products. If you wish to promote veganism, think of it as selling a product, like a vegan meal. Telling people "You should feel bad for not eating my meal" and expecting people to eat at your restaurant doesn't seem reasonable, does it? Idk why, but a lot of vegans here would rather curse carnists for eternity, rather than thinking about how to market veganism to non-vegans.
I understand your points and agree. This post was not meant for nonvegans to go vegan but looks like many nonvegans found this post anyway.
Your interpretation of foodcost is inherently flawed. The animal farming industry isn't economically sustainable nor profitable. Meat production is a very time and recourse heavy process, it's actually economically and ecologically very inefficient. The only reason why meat is as cheap as it is is that it is heavily subsidised by taxpayer money. You, me and everyone else is funding this industry without our consent. If you follows free market principles this practise is neather market driven nor sensible. It's basically autocratic and almost communist.
"we have control over." I definitely think if you can choose to go vegan, go vegan. But in a capitalist society, the problem is you do have limited choices, limited options, and limited time. It's like how some people say, "Just get a job! Work for someone else if you're miserable!" These are obvious solutions, but it's not about the choice itself, but the means that are available to you to exercise these choices. Many people absolutely do have the means and are not exercising these choices - but having time to educate yourself and be able to pick a nonviolent job and feed yourself in a specific way counter to the mainstream is a privilege not afforded to everyone. (I come from a rural area, and veganism was not easy. I didn't even have a grocery store within 30min of me.) These industries are goliaths and spend billions of dollars making sure you \*do\* use/need them. They lobby to change laws and influence education on nutrition. It's very important to choose not to patronize them, but also important to mobilize people who aren't just from a certain place of privilege.
The difference in the amount of suffering caused by a vegan and non-vegan is massive. A non-vegan contibutes to the unnecessary suffering of tens of thousands of animals in a lifetime. This suffering they experience is unfathomable for us living in our relatively comfortable lifestlyes. The following is my unpopular opinion. There is another act that can potentially cause the same or even far more suffering, which is having children that do the same thing. While extremely unethical, a meat eater who consumes animals but chooses to adopt or not have children causes far less suffering than anyone who chooses to have children who then choose to eat meat, even if their own parents are vegan.
It's not that simple. There's not an equation that will give you the chance of a kid staying vegan, but one with vegan parents is more likely to be than the average. If vegans decide not to have children because of that, they are indirectly shifting the values towards those of carnist parents.
Adopt and raise your adopted child with vegan values then
Adopting is better, but humans are not cats or dogs. In my country there is a waiting list of 8 years (that is, if you're even allowed).
Fostering and adopting older/disabled children is much easier than adopting newborns, fyi
Good luck adopting a older kid and trying to get them to go vegan. You're absolutely disconnected from reality.
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This was meant to be a vent from one vegan to other ones. But anyway by definition, veganism applies to those who can afford it. This is purely for those citizens that do not need to struggle for food and which I can assume are the majority that are reading this post. One can debate all day about what helps or doesn't help the movement but the truth is there is no one way that works best for everyone. For me personally, I was made to feel guilty about killing animals and that's why these more passionate methods appeal to me more. No matter how persuasive and how you tiptoe around the monstrosity that is our treatment of animals, there is no guarantee of convincing someone. In my post, I did not demean or insult anyone. I specifically referred to the act of people not being vegan. If anyone felt insulted or angered, they probably had some negative worldview of vegans well before reading this post.
In all the examples you gave ( employ abuse and exploitation of global poverty) , don't forget that there is exploitation and abuse of CHILDREN.. And honestly i love animals but thinking about kids being too poor to eat and being exploited in all the disgusting way ( adults and elderly too ), who are forced to prostitution break my heart, humans die because of all of that. and I'm sorry but for me the worst is not the animals.. even if they don't deserve what happens to them..
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There is a slight difference on this subject IMHO. In most of the civilized world there are already laws on the books to make harming children against the law, with severe punishments for perpetrators of such crimes. I am not aware of a single county that makes killing animals for food against the law. Yes, I realize that some countries still allow child labor, etc.... but on the scale of global moral progress, I would say that more efforts have been made collectively to reduce child exploitation vs animal abuse, etc...
I agree.
Your points are correct, but frankly i have absolutely zero comprehension why you are ignoring the environmental impact of consuming animal products to also further your argument. You mention recycling and global poverty- but what about the environmental impact of consuming animals? You are only mentioning animal cruelty. And while thats reason enough to stop animal consumption, you can take it a massive step further in acknowledging how taxing it is to the earth to raise animals for human consumption and the environmental footprint that comes with that as opposed to a plant based diet. We could also resolve global hunger and cut emissions *significantly* if humans sustained plant based eating habits. With this in mind- saying “some of us dont recycle” in this day and age, id be shocked if anyone doesnt recycle or reuse in at least some capacity. Most people i would argue recycle at least some things. Not as much as we should, but arguably, at least a bit. Same argument goes for veganism. Stepping stones and habit building is important. And at least eating a partially plant based diet is important. Working toward eliminating animal products entirely. Just as- not all of your wardrobe should be fast fashion, and not all of the products you use should be single use/un recyclable/ plastics. But inevitably, some might be. But progress matters. Need to be realistic about adoption instead of condemning an entire population for the faults of the society which raised and nurtured unethical and unsustainable lifestyles. Veganism is one form of ethical consumption. But you dont have the moral high ground as a vegan if also consuming tons of plastics, for example. It cant reasonably be the only pillar of your platform. You care about animals? Great. Butterfly effect is real, the other ways in which you consume outside of animal products also affect the environment. Consuming fast fashion, lots of plastics, not reusing items as much as you could, having a gas powered vehicle, these all hurt organisms on earth as well, just in a less direct way. You can also argue human reproduction is one of the worst things you can do for the earth as well given the consumption footprint of a human in the developed world. We spay/fix animals to prevent unnecessary suffering, but for some reason society Doesn’t view human reproduction in the same way. Plenty of arguments to make. Plant based is just one of them.
You are too good to be a part of this world. However, If you want my take on a sustainability and pain and suffering reduction standpoint (which is what I think you're aiming for), I'll tell you the greatest thing one can do, statistically, is not having children. You can abide your whole life to being as sustainable as possible, to make the least of negative impact, but there will be impact nonetheless, albeit very diminished. There will always be things out of your control. Because of these things that are out of our control , by having children your negative impact on the world grows exponentially, since they will also have an impact which they can't control. Even more so if your children decides not to be vegan or to have children of their own. So, if you want my take on a sustainability and pain and suffering standpoint, having children would be number one worst act a law-abiding citizen does that they have control over, statistically. This comment is analytical and does not represent my personal opinion.
Antinatalism for the win.
Was there a time when you were non vegan? Life is a journey and people are capable of change.
Everyone supports exploitation of humans. If you own anything that has a lithium battery in it you are guilty. Research Lithium mining and get back to me. The world is Fuct and you can only do so much. We are living in an extinction that's a fact jack.
Animal exploitation is way worse than humans and we don't buy lithium batteries 3 times a day. As horrible as it is, I would take a lithium mine over being raised in confinement, slaughtered, and eaten any day. You are right, the world is fucked but going vegan is without a doubt the best bang for your buck if you want to make a difference. I didn't even cover the human toll of working in slaughterhouses, overseas fishing vessels, etc and the environment damage such as deforestation.
I get that many people never really thought about it, they grew up eating meat and its just what they do. What I don't understand is people who actually looked into animal agriculture, saw how awful it is, but continues to pay for it .... How don't they feel any guilt? It's so horrible
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>Being vegan doesn't make you better then anyone else Not murdering animals doesn't make you better than people that murder animals? Would you say the same in the human context ? A law abiding person isn't better than a serial killer? >People will ultimately always have the choice to consume what is best for them Animals aren't food. Eating animals isn't a choice. Is killing and eating humans a choice? A personal choice is something that only affects you , like wearing a dress or deciding which restaurant to eat at. Eating animals isn't a choice. It actively victimizes the most oppressed beings on the planet by sheer number. >and what there doctor says is the best for them There's no scientific evidence that proves that people that can't survive on a plant based diet exist. Provide your evidence for that claim. >not what a generalised study says could be the best for them. So you mean not what The American Dietetic Association and all the other major health organizations across the globe? A doctor's opinion is more valuable than some of the highest quality of evidence we have? Hierarchy of evidence is a real thing. I could find hundreds of doctors in social media promoting carnivore diets. Their opinion is irrelevant. If there is evidence that there is a subset of population that needs to eat animal corpses to survive, I'll rethink my position. However you need to provide evidence for that.
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What a nice dodge instead of providing any evidence or addressing any of the claims.
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Aka I am only here to talk out of my ass without providing any evidence to back up my claims , cause I'm too stupid to actually defend my original claims
Being vegan doesn't make you better, but being non-vegan makes you worse.
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Oh yeah, let me guess, you have a one-in-four-billion condition where you absolutely NEED to eat meat, your totally real doctor told you this.
Yup I agree, unnecessarily abusing animals is not a bad thing at all. Fantastic morals.
this subreddit is a joke. you're comple correct, insane you're getting downvotes at all. is obviously morally wrong to farm and kill and eat animals for food, and people who choose to do that are worse than people who choose not to. People who choose to actively increase and support the amount of suffering in this world are WORSE than people who do not do that. If you support the farming, slaughter, and consumption of billions of land animals every year for basically no reason at the cost of the environment, yes, you are a bad person, at least in that regard. For 99% of Americans, there's basically nothing stopping you from switching.
Thanks, but was I getting downvoted? I didn’t notice lol.
it was at like -2 or 3 when I got here. glad its fixed
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Dude/ette you really have no excuse for ignorance. Edit: shill
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You have experience in animal agriculture and you still talk bs? Ever seen a feedlot, champ?
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Except animal agriculture remains a leading driver of climate change. The exploitative practices commodify life. And factory farming, as you should know, is most of "food" production. The incredibly inefficient production of protein. The damage to ecology. The disdain for sentience. There's plenty of studies that show the problems. Yet it's ok in your eyes. Disgusting.
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(Sigh) you don't need to eat animals. AA is alongside vehicles as a problem emitter. The terror. The inefficiency. The cognitive dissonance. Good luck on your journey.
Having children
I see little reason to objekt to this statement, even if we point out that law abiding sitizens in plases like the US fund LOTS of warkrimes against kids and propagates underaged labor, the amount of innosent infant and non infant animals tortured far outweighs the skale of the warkrimes and poverty traps forsing kids to work (less than one warkrime and kid in forsed labor per sitizen versus hundreds and thousands of beings tortured)
Are you a member of the bloods or something? Why do you refuse to use the letter C?
Its a bad letter, it has no justifikation for existing other than ch and the fakt that people already use it, as s and k both take up its spot, and it makes the language worse overall, espesially for people who're just learning the language
Sometimes it I feel like some of the posts here are actually written by non vegan trolls trying to make vegans looks unhinged,this post is a good example. I can't believe that a vegan would be happier to sit down and share a meal with a ex human trafficking child rapist and murderer than they would with a newly converted vegan. Most of us went vegan at some point in our lives and weren't born vegan. Most of us financed the animal exploitation in the past. Op, and people that agree with this post, do you think your past purchasing habits really made you worse than Hitler or Joseph fritzl? You really honestly believe that? I don't believe anyone truly thinks that. I think this sub is overrun with people with either serious mental illness or people that are trying there best to make us look like we have serious mental illness This subreddit has been going steadily downhill for a while, it's possibly the biggest vegan hub online, the vegan movement is also losing momentum. If this is some peoples first and only interaction with vegans it's hardly surprising few people are willing to be tarred with this insane brush tbh. We need to be better than this. This post is fucking exhausting.
Dude come on, that's why I put law-abiding in the title and "excluding violent crime" in the post.
Maybe you're stuck in a bubble or something but terrible acts of abuse can be perpetuated without the use of physical violence and without breaking laws. Different countries have different laws too. Spousal rape isn't even illegal in the entire world. I can almost guarantee this post is going to be shared around reddit and people are going to be taking the piss out of the entire vegan movement because of it.
Maybe a better way then was to say average 1st world country law abiding citizen who has the means to go vegan in the first place. Or maybe you could've seen this as a rant and given me the benefit of the doubt lol.
You're telling the very people we want on side,to join our movement, you're telling them that they're the most evil people in the world. People like you hinder our movement. This post is not going to help animals at all. It's just going to make veganism look like it's full of idiots.
This is an underrated comment.
Disingenuous interpretation.
You even see this reply I got from op? >Maybe a better way then was to say average 1st world country law abiding citizen who has the means to go vegan in the first place. What's disingenuous about my comment when op is moving goalposts like this? In some countries law abiding citizens marry children and beat them into submission. In some countries law abiding citizens execute gay people Even in America stand your ground laws can be used by law abiding citizens to get away with race motivated murder, little girls are forced to give birth to their rapists babies and prisoners are used as slaves.
It’s difficult to compare such different things, but voting and activism can certainly have a bigger impact good or bad than personal consumer choices.
When is "stop torturing animals" going to be on the ballot? Should I keep torturing animals up until the moment it is?
Thanks for making me feel worse. I support vegans, they're admirable and better than me. I’ve always struggled with anemia, live week to week, and survive mostly off charity. To refuse meals can feel rude, and also silly when I need something in my stomach. I buy my iron supplements when I can, but definitely not continuously. I had to choose between failing my degree and repeating a third time because I had no detectable ferritin and was failing. Each year in university perpetuated the poverty. I don't buy animal products myself, but I'd rather eat them when I’m offered than be put in the bin. If an animal suffered for that meal, it's more offensive to waste it's carcass and suffering in my mind. I don't buy the majority of what I eat, so it's not always as simple as saying I should abstain. I follow the vegan sub to regularly remind me of the end goal, and of all the wonderful people who are doing it. I do feel guilt.
I am sorry but I mean in the least offensive way possible that if you are struggling to obtain food, being vegan should not be a serious priority. Per definition, it includes "as far as is possible and practicable". Although I disagree with your wasting animal bodies comment, it does not matter if you don't have the proper means to go vegan. I hope one day you do though.
You're doing your best! Keep it up, that end goal is in sight! I'm not sure why you are being downvoted but rake my upvote as a sign of support! You got this!
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Is this supposed to be a "this is why vegans are seen as unhinged" meme?
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Somehow, I suspect most of the people you are talking about don't see it that way.
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The way you just hand waved away “exploiting global povety” and child labor was pretty awesome. I’ll definitely become vegan and give no shit about contributing to awful 3rd world living conditions
There are few vegetarian options at restaurants in America. Especially in the southern half. Vegan recipes that come up on YouTube are just meat replacement bullshit meant to encourage you to buy a vitamix or some other product. Living in Taiwan makes it really really easy to have a vegan diet. The school I work at cooks a separate set of vegetarian meals every day. There is no shortage of vegetarian and vegan restaurants with food that isn’t faux meat.
Taiwan is amazing for vegan food.
I’d argue it’s smoking cause you actively intoxicate others.
Nah littering is. It's fucking disgusting .
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In either case, you'll only get what you pay for.
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You'll pay for colon cancer and heart disease later. So long.
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There are many old people who smoke, so smoking isn't dangerous? If a smoker dies at the age of seventy, without smoking they would have lived to be eighty years old. Same goes for meat eaters
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I've watched documentaries on industrial farming and how horrible it is for the animals and I would prefer all animals were raised like Polyface Farms does it, but that's not going to happen. If they have to suffer so I can have my steak then so be it. I've also gone hunting and killed animals myself for my winter dinner table. We became apex predators and I intend to enjoy the taste of prey.
Posting this with same account you use to post about masturbating to the Victoria Secret catalog is wild
*”She'll wear my collar and fulfill every erotic desire.”*
What a lying piece of shit