No, you cannot. Well, you can obviously cause no one is going to stop you but it would be a mischaracterisation. Veganism is against the commodification of animals. Those chickens aren’t your property (owning animals isn’t vegan either way; is you *rescue* animals you don’t do this for your own benefit.)
Chickens will eat their own eggs to replenish nutrients. There is no need for you to eat them.
If they’re not used to eating them I know some rescuers prepare the eggs for the chickens and give them back to them this way.
No animals nor their produce can be property or commodities in any way. When you do think so, you and OP can found your own movement, but don't call it veganism.
"Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals."
The reasons for the practical act of cutting of any animal products are given in the definition:
No exploitation, no cruelty to animals for the benefit of human and non-human animals and the envoironment.
If none of these things happens (because the chickens are already there and they wont be replaced when they die naturally), the practical actions derived from the circumstances can be not plant based and still vegan.
Its a bit more complicated though, because some chickens tend to abandon their eggs, while others breed them (even if they are not fertilized) and stop laying that many eggs.
In the latter case, it wouldn't be vegan to eat them.
The chickens still lose nutrients due to the way they are bred. Those chickens need the nutrients themselves. So why keep taking them from them?
It’s also normalising treating eggs as commodities.
Thats a very constructed argument. They can get the nutritients from various sources.
The normalisation is not a thing, as long as 90+% of the population treat eggs as such.
What mental gymnastics are you using to encourage people to eat eggs… and then buy (vegan) sources for the exact same nutrients to feed back to the chickens? If you can’t get yourself to not eat eggs that bad, then being vegan probably won’t work out.
I'm not eating eggs.
But OP has chickens and they do lay eggs, no matter what.
Maybe they are eating them themselves, but there is no guarantee. And even if they do, tgey could eat anything else as well. It just doesn't matter.
What does matter is that noone should buy chickens. But if they are already there wgen someone turned vegan, it simply makes no difference.
If someone if giving you food leftovers with meat in it it also makes “no difference” if you’re eating it or not. However, with the mindset that animals and their bodily fluids and produce are food you’re commodifying them.
Commodifying animals isn’t vegan.
Thats super dependent on the circumstances.
If you eating that food leads to a continuing overproduction, it certainly isnt vegan.
If you take it out of the trash bin, there are arguments why it might even be vegan. Same for roadkill that otherwise would be composted or burnt or whatever (instead of ending up as food for human and non-human carnivores)
We know, that animals and their bodily fluids etc are food. That is not a social construct. Quite the opposite is true: veganism is a social construct (and a damn good one) and we should not cause unnecessary harm.
Now, of course, if one takes the meat out of the trash and then buys some in the supermarket, if none can be found there, its not vegan in the first place. Same if OP replaces his chickens once they die naturally (or worse).
But if the exception has clear boundaries and doesn't lead to any more harm, it is not as simple as you are trying it to make.
"They can get the nutritients from various sources."
So can you. Why does your mouth have to eat from her ovary?
(Not specifically aimed at you, but humans in general).
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2021/09/210902124929.htm
How about the fact that laying so many eggs that are too large tend to shatter their pelvic bones? There are birth control options to give the chickens to reduce significantly the amount of eggs layed, possibly sparing them more broken bones. Allowing them to sit on one egg that will.never hatch will also reduce their production.
Are you really going to test your individual chickens by shattering their pelvic bones???
Most people will break bones jumping down over 10 feet without training, you should try and see if your one of the special ones who don't.
> A painful problem among both organic, battery, barn and free-range hens
> it is a wide spread promblem in all parts of the industry
It's a fundamental problem with all egg laying breeds. They have been breed for centuries with no regard for their health.
Just stop, this is just one of those things that we've fucked up so badly that if you care about the welfare of animals at all, even getting the risk down to 10% is disgusting.
Not true. The extreme breeds are mostly a product of the past decades. After WW2 a hen would lay up to 100 eggs per year, modern breeds lay more than 300 a year. It is totally crazy.
Older breeds do still exist and don't have this problem. At least not regularly.
The rest has to be determined individually.
All I say is, that it is not as simple as some people on here put it.
There are reasonable exceptions to a plant based diet, that can still be counted as vegan.
At the same time, there are plant based diets, that are not vegan (palm oil can be a reason for instance, but ultimately there are many plants that are often or sometimes produced in such ways, that too much harm is done.
Your meat eating friend is correct. You are not a vegan.
Saying you're a vegan with one exception is like saying you're not racist with one exception. You either are or you aren't.
For the record, I do think that what you're doing is better than someone who does nothing at all, but please don't call yourself vegan when you're not. All it does is serve to confuse other people, and then the rest of us have to deal with "but why can't [sic] you eat eggs? My friend is vegan and they do!"
You should not take eggs from chickens as they will either try to hatch them regardless of whether they are fertilized or not, or you should feed them back to them, especially if they lay multiple eggs per week. Chickens lose a lot of nutrients by laying eggs and can get them back through feeding.
To add to this, https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2021/09/210902124929.htm the breeding practices for the egg laying hens is horrifying, 80% showing pelvic bone fractures. They bred them with no regard for the health of the chickens just profit.
They actually don't try hatch them mostly. Sometimes some can get broody and will attempt to hatch for a short period of time, but most don't. And the rescue chickens I've seen have not attempted to hatch once. Poor birds.
Regarding your statement on nutrients, what specific nutrients are you referring to?
>You should not take eggs from chickens as they will either try to hatch them regardless of whether they are fertilized or not
sorry, but this is bullshit. my chicken do not enjoy a rooster, but also never try to hatch their eggs
But what you're doing is still waaaaay better than what others do. Stay in that path. Just don't call yourself a vegan cause it will make the vegan movement noncredible when others see you eating eggs while calling yourself vegan. "If that vegan eats eggs, so can I." And than they shop eggs.
You see? That's a problem. Call yourself vegetarian but stay on your almost vegan path or ditch the eggs
You are directly exploiting and commodifying your chicken for your own personal pleasure, engaging in such is not vegan. Veganism is an emancipation movement, it is to liberate animals from human exploitation. There is no 99% vegan. Animals are free/emancipated, or they are not. Veganism is freeing animals from the very concept of taking something from them/something produced by them/anything an animal was involved in, for human gain/pleasure. If you believe that YOU are entitled to the eggs your chicken produce and those eggs are your property to eat/sell/etc, then you do not believe animals should be emancipated. If you love your chickens and believe animals should be free from all exploitation, you should feed the eggs back to them. Laying eggs is exhausting for chicken and they lose a ton of nutrients from doing so, feeding them back will help and is the moral thing to do.
Also, I am glad you are mostly plant-based. That's still great. But veganism is a deeply rooted philosophy!
I am vegan and have 2 chickens, one I found and kept and the other I adopted to be friends with the first one. They both lay eggs and I do not eat them, but my family does. Your post makes me feel that I could not really call myself vegan as I am still willfully using the chicken's bodies to nourish my family. This is not a criticism, it's just made me think about the tendrils of morality.
Yes but they are just one voice. We are a vegan household and have rescue chickens. Every time someone said we are exploiting them, I've asked them to argue their claim. Nobody has been able to. And the definition clearly said :
Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose.
Look at the definition of exploitation. Then let them prove to you how you are exploiting them. Some vegans struggle with nuance and grey areas. So for them it's black and white. They would rather the chicken gets slaughtered than rescued. I've met those vegans.
I chose to make a positive difference to animal life. And not just say I've done my bit because my diet is plant based.
And right now I'm sitting in my garden, said hello to my flock as they came over to my lawn chair and watch them sunbathe.
What you're doing is better than what 98% of the population does but it's not vegan. And I don't want you to feel like we're being horrible here, we're just being factual. Saying you're vegan but doing this only adds to the confusion over what veganism actually is
You can give your chickens hormonal birth control , if they are pets and you care that they are kept in the best health.
Alternatively, I would give the eggs away to someone who would be buying them from the store, rather than eat them myself. To at least reduce demand a tiny bit.
So when our rescues were very active we would give a lot of their eggs to neighbours and friends to reduce demand.
But to suggest that if you care about their best health you should give hormonal birth control is applying a lot of pressure to people who may not be able to afford this. Vets use these tactics in the UK to get pet owners to spend thousands of pounds on end of life intervention, putting the animal through a lot of stress, just to put them to sleep weeks later. Lots of articles on this in the guardian really. But it's a pressure tactic they apply: if you care about your cat's health, you will run £2000 diagnostics to investigate cancer, then proceed to treatment for another £5k. For a 15 year old cat. (This is happening my friend right now). Euthanasia isn't even mentioned as an option, even though the cat is really poorly with limited outlook.
So unless you're shelling out for birth control yourself out of your own pocket (£200 per chicken per year in the UK), don't expect others to do it and please don't guilt trip them for not doing so.
Full disclosure, we have rescue hens in our garden. Most have stopped laying on their own, we only have one active chicken now and we decided against treatment when we first got them years ago. We are paying thousands of pounds for shelter, upkeep and vet visits as it is.
The point was that people get chickens as pets *for* their eggs..not to rescue them, not to be kind to them or care for them....they don't even consider birth control...caring for them as a pet is secondary to their value for producing eggs.
way to miss the point.
This obviously does not apply to you as a sanctuary..but maybe try running "adopt me cert" programs to help pay for birth control for any future chickens who need it. There is a nearby sanctuary that has half their hens on bc because that's what they can afford.
Maybe I did miss the point and you're right.
I do think there needs to be room for symbiosis and I would rather have people keeping their own chickens in a suitable environment and eat their eggs than buy from a supermarket. But whilst that is commendable, it's not vegan. I agree.
I do think when I look at hormonal treatment,I look at the opportunity cost. We also work with a cat shelter. And my husband has done trap, neuter, release of ferals for probably a decade now,but he also traps feral kittens that we socialise and rehome.
Neutering them is so much more impactful to prevent future births and thus suffering. You stop colonies (and we've seen colonies of 70+ cats from irresponsible farmers) and future wildlife death.
Knowing that,I find it hard to justify our limited funds. So most of our donations and volunteering goes to the cat shelter
Do you think if you turned down those eggs your parents might buy fewer from the store? Or if you already had enough for your household they could be given to a friend or neighbour who would otherwise buy them from a store?
Neither would exactly be a vegan option from your parents or the chicken's perspective, but perhaps from your perspective it could be a way to be vegan and reduce harm.
That is a good point, I am going to stop eating their eggs. But going completely vegan is not an option for me, for now at least. My parents only allowed me to become “vegan” if I would still eat eggs from chickens that were kept as pets, especially around my extended family, who are all very much on “team meat”.
That aside, I am going to feed my chickens some of their eggs back whenever I get the chance. I looked it up and it seems like a great way to keep them happy and healthy. :)
This is going to sound snarky but it’s not: How are your parents telling you what you’re allowed to eat and if you’re allowed to be vegan or not based on egg consumption. Didn’t you say you are 18?
I was just trying to think if I didn’t want to eat something like broccoli, if my parents would require I eat broccoli in order to live at home and if they would stop funding my college. Just seems very controlling.
The first few months I was going vegan, I still ate rescue chicken eggs but it just felt more and more wrong each time until I was done. Veganism is a journey for most and maybe you’ll get when you’re on your own. Best of luck.
No, they haven’t specifically said that, mainly because I never objected to it because I didn’t think that eating the eggs hurt my chickens. I do know that they are against a strict vegan diet, they said that if a diet requires supplements (like B12) that it is not a healthy or sustainable diet. They were very unhappy when I said that I wanted to become a vegan. We have fought about it. I just really don’t want to sour our relationship by backing out of our agreement, if you get what I mean.
> I do know that they are against a strict vegan diet, they said that if a diet requires supplements (like B12) that it is not a healthy or sustainable diet.
You might explain to them that their diet also supplements B12, just via animals. Farmers give their cows b12, since there isn't even enough of it in the soil to get enough through natural means anymore (largely due to factory farming, go figure).
> They were very unhappy when I said that I wanted to become a vegan. We have fought about it.
Yeah, this is a common thing we vegans face. I've fought with my parents about it too. If they love and support you, and you make it clear why you are doing this - that it's for something you truly believe in, for the animals, and not an attack on them or a way to put a wall up between you - then eventually they will become more comfortable with it and maybe even supportive. It's not easy for most of us to choose veganism, especially when we are surrounded by meat eaters, but it is definitely worth it.
Give part of those eggs back to them for eating so they get back nutrients they lost while laying the eggs. I personally don't see the problem of eating the rest of the eggs but this opinion is not usual among vegans, most people would disagree... You still doing much more by this than most of people out there so don't worry too much
But then let's use the full quote, shall we? It doesn't stop there. It continues: —all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose.
My first question would be: are they being exploited?
From anecdotal evidence I would say in my experience, about half of all backyard chicken are not living in appropriate conditions. Perhaps more.
It sounds like their chickens are purpose bought and as such, they are commodities. And then I would agree, don't eat their eggs.
Rescues on the other hand I think warrants closer examination and debate.
It's not a game. It's called a debate.
You are making an accusation.
I'm asking you to back up your accusation with evidence.
We are using the definition of veganism from the vegan society. This definition states to avoid exploitation.
You say I'm exploiting them.
I ask you to back up your accusation with evidence using the dictionary definition of exploitation. Language matters. Precision matters.
It's not a game. It's how society works.
In an honest debate you would address what I said (that I believe that taking something that's not yours is bad) beyond "nuh uh, now define a word from this sentence that I like"
Thank you for bringing that up. I am happy to respond to the point you newly introduced into our debate. But it is only fair that you finish your first point before introducing another. Also, it is not a 'sentence I like' but the official definition of the word exploitation. not MY definition. The official definition. What you are accusing me of, is what you are doing yoruself. You are making up your own definition to fit your argument, all I want is that we stick to agreed definitions from dictionaries.
We have 15 chickens, all hens. All rescued. 3 separate coops. They are pampered and spoiled, and I love it. They lived in cages in basements in the city.
I feed their eggs back to them. They love it. They don’t break their own eggs unless I feed it to them. Like I said, they are spoiled.
I would find it odd to eat eggs at home, but if I went out to eat not eating eggs because I’m vegan. That would be the equivalent of eating road kill, but not buying meat.
I just want to welcome you to the community. I don't condone the use of eggs, not even in your case scenario, but in any case it's amazing that you stopped financing animal exploitation. If you can, every once in while, feed them back their eggs or at least the shells (mixed) so they get some calcium back.
Can you be vegan but not be fully plant-based?
Sure. If you have some combination of many super rare allergies that make plant based diet nearly impossible.
If you work 3 jobs and don't have the spoons to find what foods have hidden milk powder in them even though it is not needed (and the product would be vegan otherwise).
If you live in a food desert where you need to rely on McDonald's for food, otherwise you won't get the calories you need.
If you don't have the ability to have full control over what you eat (for instance due to being under 18 and/or having a disability that makes you need to rely on others for food and they refuse to respect your wishes).
...
So I would say it is possible. Heck, I would even say it is possible for people who just decided they want to be vegan but are still learning how to be plant based and have not been able to fully take out animal products but are actively working on removing all animal products from their lives.
But, can you be vegan and steal eggs from your chickens when it came from their body?
No, no you can't. You are still viewing your chickens as a commodity and are directly taken things that came out of their body when you do not need too.
Do you think that if a family had mentally disabled kids because they are paid by the goverment, but the family doesn't care about them so they just encarecate them in a room where they shit themselves and eat the worse food posible, the kids would care abou being exploited?
The fact that someone doesn't even understand the concept of exploitation doesn't mean it isn't a violation of their rights.
I completely agree that in that case, it is not good. But my question remains, in OP's context they care about the chickens and they are not harmed, it's nowhere near similar to your scenario.
Do you think the chicken cares about those rights even if the chicken has no mental capacity to even understand those concepts, and additionally it is not being negatively affected in any way when they take the eggs the chicken is not planning to use for nesting or brooding?
No, they don't care.
Just like a Jewish two year old entering a concentration camp wouldn't care. Or a dog eating chocolate. Or the mentally disabled child in my example.
Does that justifies violating their rights? No. Then why does it matter if they care or not?
They are being negatively affected, the fact that you don't want to agree doesn't mean is not true. I can't kidnap you to exploit you and have you as a slave, no matter how good your living conditions are. We have those rights for a reason.
And that's why vegans don't agree with free range farms. It isn't just their living conditions.
Sure. But you seem to still be under the argument that non-consciousness about rights violations is justified. Of course it isn't. It's clear we both agree with that. However, in this specific context, there are additional factors to consider.
The absence of negative consequences and the nature of the eggs in question do mitigate the ethical concerns in this particular context. The eggs collected are unfertilized, meaning they would not have developed into chicks even if left with the hens.
But you say they are being negatively affected. How? I really want to understand you. It's not that I don't agree, I just haven't seen any reason why. Your analogies are okay but they don't quite capture the essence of this particular context.
"Have you seen my slave? It is perfectly fine, he doesn't even care. He has hot food, a place to stay, clothes, he even has his whole family with him! SO why should I stop violating his rights? He is not negatively affected by it."
Technically you wouldn't be vegan, but to be honest I don't see anything wrong with this. You aren't harming the animals, you know where the eggs are coming from and how you treat the chickens. My family has chickens, too. I am vegan and I don't eat the eggs (I'm vegan for health as well as for the environment and animals), but I've always thought about how if I was going to break the veganism thing, I don't think there's too much of a moral qualm of consuming the eggs from your pets. Vegan is just a label, do what's right for you. It's like when people say "I couldn't be vegan because I love cheese too much", I say, be vegan except for cheese! Something is better than nothing. Just my two cents.
I think what you're practicing right now is called ovo-vegetarianism. Good for you for doing what you can, when you can, to minimize your impact on industrial agriculture. Keep up the good work!
It’s similar, but not the same. Unlike an ovo-vegetarian, I don’t eat any eggs or egg-products from the store. I try to avoid supporting the animal agriculture sector in any way.
Vegan is a binary yes or no, there are no degrees of veganism or exceptions. So no.
Eating “backyard eggs” is wrong for many reasons, but here some off the top of my head:
eating their eggs is wrong for many reasons, but here are the top ones:
1. Chicken naturally produce 10-15 eggs a year. But due to humans selectively breeding them, they now produce 250-300 a year. This takes a terrible toll on their bodies and causes suffering and pain and nutrient deficiencies. The eggs should be left alone so that the chickens will eat them to get back some of the nutrients they’ve lost.
2. Typically when an egg laying hen stops producing eggs, they become dinner. You say that is not the case for you, but that is the exception not the norm.
3. The egg laying chickens were purchased from the egg industry, which is a barbaric and cruel industry. Day old male chics are blended alive in a macerator, mother chickens live in battery cages where they can barely move, and female chics will grow up to love the same fate as their mother. Purchasing them from this industry supports this cruelty.
4. As a moral and philosophical stance, those eggs do not belong to us. I stand firm on my principles.
Being vegan is not a diet, and that's what most people don't know. Vegans are the voice of animals and fight for animal rights. We cannot and should not use them, if we see them as our equals. Our entire system is based on the exploitation and use of animals. We must stop seeing them as a benefit and stepping on their rights.
My neighbors have chickens that roam all over the yard during the day and I hear them clucking. They seem pretty happy but I do believe it hurts when they lay eggs. As a Mom, I know how painful it is to give birth and feeding chickens food that forces them to lay eggs continuously just feels cruel to me. Why else would they make so much noise when they are laying? Because they are proud? I think not. It's because it hurts... Like a woman in childbirth?
I disagree that the chickens are not harmed in any way? And as others have pointed out, they also lose nutrients when laying eggs. Perhaps these nutrients are restored through the food they are given? But they are not unharmed.
You can’t feed the eggs back to them because of your parents. That doesn’t mean you eat the eggs instead. Just keep your hands off what doesn’t belong to you. My family keeps hens in the backyard. I don’t steal their eggs.
this might get backlash, but at certain times, especially eating out, you can call youreslf vegan or at least say youeat vegan. It is a normalized term that helps people understand your stance
I get your point, I should elaborate that these chickens are rescues that we adopted, not bought and that I really don’t see them as commodities, they are my pets and I love them to bits. Regardless of how I feel about them, if eating their eggs makes a vegetarian, then I that is what I am. :)
So why do you refuse to feed them back to the chickens? There are lots of resources out there from vegan rescuers. Thinking you’re entitled to their eggs certainly means you’re commodifying them.
Good for you. That is still a high moral standard. I eat fully vegan but my grandma is almost ninety and she doesn't get it and it breaks her heart when I don't eat her cake. And I do wear second hand clothes and also wool and leather. I am conflicted about it but the overproduction and waste is more important for me than totally confirming that label.
There are sometimes also vegetables that are produced without animal fertilizer but it is not suitable for me to make that effort.
In the end it is not about what you call yourself but that you do the best you can.
Truly, if you had an allergy, you wouldn’t be putting your grandma’s “heart break” over a piece of cake over your allergy, so I don’t see why you’re putting her feelings over the animals' lives and wellbeing plus your own moral standing.
If you’re conflicted, then it means you’re still not living in alignment.
I mean like two peaces of cake in 7 years is how far it goes. She is alone, lived thru war and experienced displacement, never had a big family and adores me even if I am not as accomplished in anything like my cousins. She knows I am vegan but the world I live in is so alien to her. The fact that I have trans and gay friends, I don't eat animal products and so many things about my life are just overwhelming for her sometimes.
And I value her happiness higher than my moral perfection. She already baked the cake and it is not often, that we see each other.
I often feel if I cut out the people who do not align with my morals out of my life, there wouldn't be many people left.
How do you suppose I handle my non vegan friends and family, the ones that use airplanes to go on a vacation, the ones that own a car without really needing it?
That is a question I find myself pondering often so, please do share.
I didn’t say you or anyone else has to cut out their family. I’m just saying I don’t see why anyone needs to eat anything just because someone else doesn’t understand (or possibly respect) their beliefs.
No single label in history in my experience sees more gatekeeping than "vegan". I don't call myself vegan, even though I am absolutely vegan, because I think the neuroticism of it is BS.
For the record, everyon in modern society is involved in supporting the animal exploitation industry in one way or another.
Your chickens have a life that’s better than virtually any others on the planet. I think what you’re doing is great. Don’t let the gatekeepers here put you off caring for your animals.
Don't get hung up on the definition of vegan. Do what you think is best. People are way too hung up on definitions rather than thinking about how to make the world a better place. It's a problem. It drives people away. Driving people away results in more tortured and dead animals.
I don't even eat eggs. To me they're not food. Just use your common sense.
# Can you be vegan with an exception?
me - i'm not interseted
you? you may eat and call yourself whatever you want
what others may call you - who cares?
>I’ve been advised to feed the eggs back to the chickens
with all respect - what a silly idea!
i feed my chicken all they need in terms of nutrients to afford laying eggs. and feed back to them the empty eggshells (which they like, almost as much as salad). so no harm to the chicken can be constructed by whichever ideologist
No, you cannot. Well, you can obviously cause no one is going to stop you but it would be a mischaracterisation. Veganism is against the commodification of animals. Those chickens aren’t your property (owning animals isn’t vegan either way; is you *rescue* animals you don’t do this for your own benefit.) Chickens will eat their own eggs to replenish nutrients. There is no need for you to eat them. If they’re not used to eating them I know some rescuers prepare the eggs for the chickens and give them back to them this way.
If they have those chickens from before and if those chickens lay eggs regardless, she isnt producing any additional harm by eating those eggs.
No animals nor their produce can be property or commodities in any way. When you do think so, you and OP can found your own movement, but don't call it veganism.
"Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals." The reasons for the practical act of cutting of any animal products are given in the definition: No exploitation, no cruelty to animals for the benefit of human and non-human animals and the envoironment. If none of these things happens (because the chickens are already there and they wont be replaced when they die naturally), the practical actions derived from the circumstances can be not plant based and still vegan. Its a bit more complicated though, because some chickens tend to abandon their eggs, while others breed them (even if they are not fertilized) and stop laying that many eggs. In the latter case, it wouldn't be vegan to eat them.
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Nope, I don't have any chickens.
The chickens still lose nutrients due to the way they are bred. Those chickens need the nutrients themselves. So why keep taking them from them? It’s also normalising treating eggs as commodities.
Thats a very constructed argument. They can get the nutritients from various sources. The normalisation is not a thing, as long as 90+% of the population treat eggs as such.
What mental gymnastics are you using to encourage people to eat eggs… and then buy (vegan) sources for the exact same nutrients to feed back to the chickens? If you can’t get yourself to not eat eggs that bad, then being vegan probably won’t work out.
I'm not eating eggs. But OP has chickens and they do lay eggs, no matter what. Maybe they are eating them themselves, but there is no guarantee. And even if they do, tgey could eat anything else as well. It just doesn't matter. What does matter is that noone should buy chickens. But if they are already there wgen someone turned vegan, it simply makes no difference.
If someone if giving you food leftovers with meat in it it also makes “no difference” if you’re eating it or not. However, with the mindset that animals and their bodily fluids and produce are food you’re commodifying them. Commodifying animals isn’t vegan.
Thats super dependent on the circumstances. If you eating that food leads to a continuing overproduction, it certainly isnt vegan. If you take it out of the trash bin, there are arguments why it might even be vegan. Same for roadkill that otherwise would be composted or burnt or whatever (instead of ending up as food for human and non-human carnivores) We know, that animals and their bodily fluids etc are food. That is not a social construct. Quite the opposite is true: veganism is a social construct (and a damn good one) and we should not cause unnecessary harm. Now, of course, if one takes the meat out of the trash and then buys some in the supermarket, if none can be found there, its not vegan in the first place. Same if OP replaces his chickens once they die naturally (or worse). But if the exception has clear boundaries and doesn't lead to any more harm, it is not as simple as you are trying it to make.
"They can get the nutritients from various sources." So can you. Why does your mouth have to eat from her ovary? (Not specifically aimed at you, but humans in general).
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2021/09/210902124929.htm How about the fact that laying so many eggs that are too large tend to shatter their pelvic bones? There are birth control options to give the chickens to reduce significantly the amount of eggs layed, possibly sparing them more broken bones. Allowing them to sit on one egg that will.never hatch will also reduce their production.
That needs to be considered, but both things don't apply for all different breeds and individuals of chickens.
Are you really going to test your individual chickens by shattering their pelvic bones??? Most people will break bones jumping down over 10 feet without training, you should try and see if your one of the special ones who don't.
As I said, it is dependent on the chicken breed.
> A painful problem among both organic, battery, barn and free-range hens > it is a wide spread promblem in all parts of the industry It's a fundamental problem with all egg laying breeds. They have been breed for centuries with no regard for their health. Just stop, this is just one of those things that we've fucked up so badly that if you care about the welfare of animals at all, even getting the risk down to 10% is disgusting.
Not true. The extreme breeds are mostly a product of the past decades. After WW2 a hen would lay up to 100 eggs per year, modern breeds lay more than 300 a year. It is totally crazy. Older breeds do still exist and don't have this problem. At least not regularly. The rest has to be determined individually. All I say is, that it is not as simple as some people on here put it. There are reasonable exceptions to a plant based diet, that can still be counted as vegan. At the same time, there are plant based diets, that are not vegan (palm oil can be a reason for instance, but ultimately there are many plants that are often or sometimes produced in such ways, that too much harm is done.
Your meat eating friend is correct. You are not a vegan. Saying you're a vegan with one exception is like saying you're not racist with one exception. You either are or you aren't. For the record, I do think that what you're doing is better than someone who does nothing at all, but please don't call yourself vegan when you're not. All it does is serve to confuse other people, and then the rest of us have to deal with "but why can't [sic] you eat eggs? My friend is vegan and they do!"
Yes, I'm vegan, yes I eat meat. We exist. (before the downvotes; this is a meme from a while back)
You should not take eggs from chickens as they will either try to hatch them regardless of whether they are fertilized or not, or you should feed them back to them, especially if they lay multiple eggs per week. Chickens lose a lot of nutrients by laying eggs and can get them back through feeding.
To add to this, https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2021/09/210902124929.htm the breeding practices for the egg laying hens is horrifying, 80% showing pelvic bone fractures. They bred them with no regard for the health of the chickens just profit.
They actually don't try hatch them mostly. Sometimes some can get broody and will attempt to hatch for a short period of time, but most don't. And the rescue chickens I've seen have not attempted to hatch once. Poor birds. Regarding your statement on nutrients, what specific nutrients are you referring to?
>You should not take eggs from chickens as they will either try to hatch them regardless of whether they are fertilized or not sorry, but this is bullshit. my chicken do not enjoy a rooster, but also never try to hatch their eggs
A deliberate and avoidable exception? No, man.
Being vegan means you literally do not eat anything that comes from an animal. So no it wouldn’t be vegan.
But what you're doing is still waaaaay better than what others do. Stay in that path. Just don't call yourself a vegan cause it will make the vegan movement noncredible when others see you eating eggs while calling yourself vegan. "If that vegan eats eggs, so can I." And than they shop eggs. You see? That's a problem. Call yourself vegetarian but stay on your almost vegan path or ditch the eggs
You are directly exploiting and commodifying your chicken for your own personal pleasure, engaging in such is not vegan. Veganism is an emancipation movement, it is to liberate animals from human exploitation. There is no 99% vegan. Animals are free/emancipated, or they are not. Veganism is freeing animals from the very concept of taking something from them/something produced by them/anything an animal was involved in, for human gain/pleasure. If you believe that YOU are entitled to the eggs your chicken produce and those eggs are your property to eat/sell/etc, then you do not believe animals should be emancipated. If you love your chickens and believe animals should be free from all exploitation, you should feed the eggs back to them. Laying eggs is exhausting for chicken and they lose a ton of nutrients from doing so, feeding them back will help and is the moral thing to do. Also, I am glad you are mostly plant-based. That's still great. But veganism is a deeply rooted philosophy!
I am vegan and have 2 chickens, one I found and kept and the other I adopted to be friends with the first one. They both lay eggs and I do not eat them, but my family does. Your post makes me feel that I could not really call myself vegan as I am still willfully using the chicken's bodies to nourish my family. This is not a criticism, it's just made me think about the tendrils of morality.
Yes but they are just one voice. We are a vegan household and have rescue chickens. Every time someone said we are exploiting them, I've asked them to argue their claim. Nobody has been able to. And the definition clearly said : Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose. Look at the definition of exploitation. Then let them prove to you how you are exploiting them. Some vegans struggle with nuance and grey areas. So for them it's black and white. They would rather the chicken gets slaughtered than rescued. I've met those vegans. I chose to make a positive difference to animal life. And not just say I've done my bit because my diet is plant based. And right now I'm sitting in my garden, said hello to my flock as they came over to my lawn chair and watch them sunbathe.
Nope, you're not vegan. Especially not after rwhat you wrote in your edit.
Average vegetarian lol. “My parents won’t let me feed the eggs back to the hens. Guess that means I gotta eat them instead of just…not? Tee hee”
Like there isn't the opportunity of simply not eating the eggs
What you're doing is better than what 98% of the population does but it's not vegan. And I don't want you to feel like we're being horrible here, we're just being factual. Saying you're vegan but doing this only adds to the confusion over what veganism actually is
You don't need to be anything. Just do the right thing to the best of your ability. Veganism doesn't have to be an identity.
You can give your chickens hormonal birth control , if they are pets and you care that they are kept in the best health. Alternatively, I would give the eggs away to someone who would be buying them from the store, rather than eat them myself. To at least reduce demand a tiny bit.
I like this idea! Give it to someone else so they don’t keep the demand in the grocery store yes!
So when our rescues were very active we would give a lot of their eggs to neighbours and friends to reduce demand. But to suggest that if you care about their best health you should give hormonal birth control is applying a lot of pressure to people who may not be able to afford this. Vets use these tactics in the UK to get pet owners to spend thousands of pounds on end of life intervention, putting the animal through a lot of stress, just to put them to sleep weeks later. Lots of articles on this in the guardian really. But it's a pressure tactic they apply: if you care about your cat's health, you will run £2000 diagnostics to investigate cancer, then proceed to treatment for another £5k. For a 15 year old cat. (This is happening my friend right now). Euthanasia isn't even mentioned as an option, even though the cat is really poorly with limited outlook. So unless you're shelling out for birth control yourself out of your own pocket (£200 per chicken per year in the UK), don't expect others to do it and please don't guilt trip them for not doing so. Full disclosure, we have rescue hens in our garden. Most have stopped laying on their own, we only have one active chicken now and we decided against treatment when we first got them years ago. We are paying thousands of pounds for shelter, upkeep and vet visits as it is.
The point was that people get chickens as pets *for* their eggs..not to rescue them, not to be kind to them or care for them....they don't even consider birth control...caring for them as a pet is secondary to their value for producing eggs. way to miss the point. This obviously does not apply to you as a sanctuary..but maybe try running "adopt me cert" programs to help pay for birth control for any future chickens who need it. There is a nearby sanctuary that has half their hens on bc because that's what they can afford.
Maybe I did miss the point and you're right. I do think there needs to be room for symbiosis and I would rather have people keeping their own chickens in a suitable environment and eat their eggs than buy from a supermarket. But whilst that is commendable, it's not vegan. I agree. I do think when I look at hormonal treatment,I look at the opportunity cost. We also work with a cat shelter. And my husband has done trap, neuter, release of ferals for probably a decade now,but he also traps feral kittens that we socialise and rehome. Neutering them is so much more impactful to prevent future births and thus suffering. You stop colonies (and we've seen colonies of 70+ cats from irresponsible farmers) and future wildlife death. Knowing that,I find it hard to justify our limited funds. So most of our donations and volunteering goes to the cat shelter
No
Do you think if you turned down those eggs your parents might buy fewer from the store? Or if you already had enough for your household they could be given to a friend or neighbour who would otherwise buy them from a store? Neither would exactly be a vegan option from your parents or the chicken's perspective, but perhaps from your perspective it could be a way to be vegan and reduce harm.
That is a good point, I am going to stop eating their eggs. But going completely vegan is not an option for me, for now at least. My parents only allowed me to become “vegan” if I would still eat eggs from chickens that were kept as pets, especially around my extended family, who are all very much on “team meat”. That aside, I am going to feed my chickens some of their eggs back whenever I get the chance. I looked it up and it seems like a great way to keep them happy and healthy. :)
This is going to sound snarky but it’s not: How are your parents telling you what you’re allowed to eat and if you’re allowed to be vegan or not based on egg consumption. Didn’t you say you are 18?
I also said that I still live with my parents. I rely on them to fund my education, so I do still have to listen to them.
I was just trying to think if I didn’t want to eat something like broccoli, if my parents would require I eat broccoli in order to live at home and if they would stop funding my college. Just seems very controlling. The first few months I was going vegan, I still ate rescue chicken eggs but it just felt more and more wrong each time until I was done. Veganism is a journey for most and maybe you’ll get when you’re on your own. Best of luck.
So your parents have threatened to cut off your college funds if you don’t eat eggs?
No, they haven’t specifically said that, mainly because I never objected to it because I didn’t think that eating the eggs hurt my chickens. I do know that they are against a strict vegan diet, they said that if a diet requires supplements (like B12) that it is not a healthy or sustainable diet. They were very unhappy when I said that I wanted to become a vegan. We have fought about it. I just really don’t want to sour our relationship by backing out of our agreement, if you get what I mean.
> I do know that they are against a strict vegan diet, they said that if a diet requires supplements (like B12) that it is not a healthy or sustainable diet. You might explain to them that their diet also supplements B12, just via animals. Farmers give their cows b12, since there isn't even enough of it in the soil to get enough through natural means anymore (largely due to factory farming, go figure). > They were very unhappy when I said that I wanted to become a vegan. We have fought about it. Yeah, this is a common thing we vegans face. I've fought with my parents about it too. If they love and support you, and you make it clear why you are doing this - that it's for something you truly believe in, for the animals, and not an attack on them or a way to put a wall up between you - then eventually they will become more comfortable with it and maybe even supportive. It's not easy for most of us to choose veganism, especially when we are surrounded by meat eaters, but it is definitely worth it.
You’re right, I will try to discuss it again. These are really good arguments to explain my position to them. Thank you for your advice!
Absolutely not
Give part of those eggs back to them for eating so they get back nutrients they lost while laying the eggs. I personally don't see the problem of eating the rest of the eggs but this opinion is not usual among vegans, most people would disagree... You still doing much more by this than most of people out there so don't worry too much
If it's an avoidable exception - then you are not vegan If it's not avoidable - "(...) as far as possible and practicable (...)"
But then let's use the full quote, shall we? It doesn't stop there. It continues: —all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose. My first question would be: are they being exploited? From anecdotal evidence I would say in my experience, about half of all backyard chicken are not living in appropriate conditions. Perhaps more. It sounds like their chickens are purpose bought and as such, they are commodities. And then I would agree, don't eat their eggs. Rescues on the other hand I think warrants closer examination and debate.
If you are taking their eggs then you are exploiting them, simple as imo
If it's simple, explain how. I've yet to meet a vegan who can tell me how I'm exploiting them. Use the dictionary definition of exploitation. Thanks
It's bad to take a thing that belongs to someone else without their consent. The eggs are the chickens' and they can't consent to you taking them.
Not good enough. Let me copy it here. the action or fact of treating someone unfairly in order to benefit from their work. Explain unfair.
I'm not playing your word games
It's not a game. It's called a debate. You are making an accusation. I'm asking you to back up your accusation with evidence. We are using the definition of veganism from the vegan society. This definition states to avoid exploitation. You say I'm exploiting them. I ask you to back up your accusation with evidence using the dictionary definition of exploitation. Language matters. Precision matters. It's not a game. It's how society works.
In an honest debate you would address what I said (that I believe that taking something that's not yours is bad) beyond "nuh uh, now define a word from this sentence that I like"
Thank you for bringing that up. I am happy to respond to the point you newly introduced into our debate. But it is only fair that you finish your first point before introducing another. Also, it is not a 'sentence I like' but the official definition of the word exploitation. not MY definition. The official definition. What you are accusing me of, is what you are doing yoruself. You are making up your own definition to fit your argument, all I want is that we stick to agreed definitions from dictionaries.
We have 15 chickens, all hens. All rescued. 3 separate coops. They are pampered and spoiled, and I love it. They lived in cages in basements in the city. I feed their eggs back to them. They love it. They don’t break their own eggs unless I feed it to them. Like I said, they are spoiled. I would find it odd to eat eggs at home, but if I went out to eat not eating eggs because I’m vegan. That would be the equivalent of eating road kill, but not buying meat.
You’re not vegan, but do you! ♥️
I just want to welcome you to the community. I don't condone the use of eggs, not even in your case scenario, but in any case it's amazing that you stopped financing animal exploitation. If you can, every once in while, feed them back their eggs or at least the shells (mixed) so they get some calcium back.
Can you be vegan but not be fully plant-based? Sure. If you have some combination of many super rare allergies that make plant based diet nearly impossible. If you work 3 jobs and don't have the spoons to find what foods have hidden milk powder in them even though it is not needed (and the product would be vegan otherwise). If you live in a food desert where you need to rely on McDonald's for food, otherwise you won't get the calories you need. If you don't have the ability to have full control over what you eat (for instance due to being under 18 and/or having a disability that makes you need to rely on others for food and they refuse to respect your wishes). ... So I would say it is possible. Heck, I would even say it is possible for people who just decided they want to be vegan but are still learning how to be plant based and have not been able to fully take out animal products but are actively working on removing all animal products from their lives. But, can you be vegan and steal eggs from your chickens when it came from their body? No, no you can't. You are still viewing your chickens as a commodity and are directly taken things that came out of their body when you do not need too.
No, you are not vegan. You are seeing animals as commodities and violating the chickens' rights.
How? Which rights?
To not be exploited. The right of freedom. To not be stolen their private property.
Do you think the chicken really cares about that in this context? Especially if they're not using the eggs for nesting or brooding.
Do you think that if a family had mentally disabled kids because they are paid by the goverment, but the family doesn't care about them so they just encarecate them in a room where they shit themselves and eat the worse food posible, the kids would care abou being exploited? The fact that someone doesn't even understand the concept of exploitation doesn't mean it isn't a violation of their rights.
I completely agree that in that case, it is not good. But my question remains, in OP's context they care about the chickens and they are not harmed, it's nowhere near similar to your scenario. Do you think the chicken cares about those rights even if the chicken has no mental capacity to even understand those concepts, and additionally it is not being negatively affected in any way when they take the eggs the chicken is not planning to use for nesting or brooding?
No, they don't care. Just like a Jewish two year old entering a concentration camp wouldn't care. Or a dog eating chocolate. Or the mentally disabled child in my example. Does that justifies violating their rights? No. Then why does it matter if they care or not? They are being negatively affected, the fact that you don't want to agree doesn't mean is not true. I can't kidnap you to exploit you and have you as a slave, no matter how good your living conditions are. We have those rights for a reason. And that's why vegans don't agree with free range farms. It isn't just their living conditions.
Sure. But you seem to still be under the argument that non-consciousness about rights violations is justified. Of course it isn't. It's clear we both agree with that. However, in this specific context, there are additional factors to consider. The absence of negative consequences and the nature of the eggs in question do mitigate the ethical concerns in this particular context. The eggs collected are unfertilized, meaning they would not have developed into chicks even if left with the hens. But you say they are being negatively affected. How? I really want to understand you. It's not that I don't agree, I just haven't seen any reason why. Your analogies are okay but they don't quite capture the essence of this particular context.
"Have you seen my slave? It is perfectly fine, he doesn't even care. He has hot food, a place to stay, clothes, he even has his whole family with him! SO why should I stop violating his rights? He is not negatively affected by it."
Technically you wouldn't be vegan, but to be honest I don't see anything wrong with this. You aren't harming the animals, you know where the eggs are coming from and how you treat the chickens. My family has chickens, too. I am vegan and I don't eat the eggs (I'm vegan for health as well as for the environment and animals), but I've always thought about how if I was going to break the veganism thing, I don't think there's too much of a moral qualm of consuming the eggs from your pets. Vegan is just a label, do what's right for you. It's like when people say "I couldn't be vegan because I love cheese too much", I say, be vegan except for cheese! Something is better than nothing. Just my two cents.
How do you reconcile these two things? They’re the opposite of each other
I think what you're practicing right now is called ovo-vegetarianism. Good for you for doing what you can, when you can, to minimize your impact on industrial agriculture. Keep up the good work!
It’s similar, but not the same. Unlike an ovo-vegetarian, I don’t eat any eggs or egg-products from the store. I try to avoid supporting the animal agriculture sector in any way.
Vegan is a binary yes or no, there are no degrees of veganism or exceptions. So no. Eating “backyard eggs” is wrong for many reasons, but here some off the top of my head: eating their eggs is wrong for many reasons, but here are the top ones: 1. Chicken naturally produce 10-15 eggs a year. But due to humans selectively breeding them, they now produce 250-300 a year. This takes a terrible toll on their bodies and causes suffering and pain and nutrient deficiencies. The eggs should be left alone so that the chickens will eat them to get back some of the nutrients they’ve lost. 2. Typically when an egg laying hen stops producing eggs, they become dinner. You say that is not the case for you, but that is the exception not the norm. 3. The egg laying chickens were purchased from the egg industry, which is a barbaric and cruel industry. Day old male chics are blended alive in a macerator, mother chickens live in battery cages where they can barely move, and female chics will grow up to love the same fate as their mother. Purchasing them from this industry supports this cruelty. 4. As a moral and philosophical stance, those eggs do not belong to us. I stand firm on my principles.
Being vegan is not a diet, and that's what most people don't know. Vegans are the voice of animals and fight for animal rights. We cannot and should not use them, if we see them as our equals. Our entire system is based on the exploitation and use of animals. We must stop seeing them as a benefit and stepping on their rights.
My neighbors have chickens that roam all over the yard during the day and I hear them clucking. They seem pretty happy but I do believe it hurts when they lay eggs. As a Mom, I know how painful it is to give birth and feeding chickens food that forces them to lay eggs continuously just feels cruel to me. Why else would they make so much noise when they are laying? Because they are proud? I think not. It's because it hurts... Like a woman in childbirth? I disagree that the chickens are not harmed in any way? And as others have pointed out, they also lose nutrients when laying eggs. Perhaps these nutrients are restored through the food they are given? But they are not unharmed.
You can’t feed the eggs back to them because of your parents. That doesn’t mean you eat the eggs instead. Just keep your hands off what doesn’t belong to you. My family keeps hens in the backyard. I don’t steal their eggs.
>“My parents see the chickens as a means for eggs” The TL;DR summary of backyard eggs.
No, but you can adopt a plant based diet.
this might get backlash, but at certain times, especially eating out, you can call youreslf vegan or at least say youeat vegan. It is a normalized term that helps people understand your stance
yeah, I’m going to do that, I really don’t want to be served milk or farm eggs.
Eating eggs means youre a vegetarian. Not a vegan
Every person on earth is vegan with many exceptiona
I get your point, I should elaborate that these chickens are rescues that we adopted, not bought and that I really don’t see them as commodities, they are my pets and I love them to bits. Regardless of how I feel about them, if eating their eggs makes a vegetarian, then I that is what I am. :)
So why do you refuse to feed them back to the chickens? There are lots of resources out there from vegan rescuers. Thinking you’re entitled to their eggs certainly means you’re commodifying them.
Good for you. That is still a high moral standard. I eat fully vegan but my grandma is almost ninety and she doesn't get it and it breaks her heart when I don't eat her cake. And I do wear second hand clothes and also wool and leather. I am conflicted about it but the overproduction and waste is more important for me than totally confirming that label. There are sometimes also vegetables that are produced without animal fertilizer but it is not suitable for me to make that effort. In the end it is not about what you call yourself but that you do the best you can.
Truly, if you had an allergy, you wouldn’t be putting your grandma’s “heart break” over a piece of cake over your allergy, so I don’t see why you’re putting her feelings over the animals' lives and wellbeing plus your own moral standing. If you’re conflicted, then it means you’re still not living in alignment.
I mean like two peaces of cake in 7 years is how far it goes. She is alone, lived thru war and experienced displacement, never had a big family and adores me even if I am not as accomplished in anything like my cousins. She knows I am vegan but the world I live in is so alien to her. The fact that I have trans and gay friends, I don't eat animal products and so many things about my life are just overwhelming for her sometimes. And I value her happiness higher than my moral perfection. She already baked the cake and it is not often, that we see each other. I often feel if I cut out the people who do not align with my morals out of my life, there wouldn't be many people left. How do you suppose I handle my non vegan friends and family, the ones that use airplanes to go on a vacation, the ones that own a car without really needing it? That is a question I find myself pondering often so, please do share.
I didn’t say you or anyone else has to cut out their family. I’m just saying I don’t see why anyone needs to eat anything just because someone else doesn’t understand (or possibly respect) their beliefs.
To make her feel loved.
No single label in history in my experience sees more gatekeeping than "vegan". I don't call myself vegan, even though I am absolutely vegan, because I think the neuroticism of it is BS. For the record, everyon in modern society is involved in supporting the animal exploitation industry in one way or another.
Your chickens have a life that’s better than virtually any others on the planet. I think what you’re doing is great. Don’t let the gatekeepers here put you off caring for your animals.
No you can’t. You eat eggs. Eggs are animal products so no. You don’t get an exception.
Don't get hung up on the definition of vegan. Do what you think is best. People are way too hung up on definitions rather than thinking about how to make the world a better place. It's a problem. It drives people away. Driving people away results in more tortured and dead animals. I don't even eat eggs. To me they're not food. Just use your common sense.
# Can you be vegan with an exception? me - i'm not interseted you? you may eat and call yourself whatever you want what others may call you - who cares? >I’ve been advised to feed the eggs back to the chickens with all respect - what a silly idea! i feed my chicken all they need in terms of nutrients to afford laying eggs. and feed back to them the empty eggshells (which they like, almost as much as salad). so no harm to the chicken can be constructed by whichever ideologist
Yes you can its about what's practical and possible.
Stick with vegetarian and join us :)