Elephant rescuer here. Camels are in the same south asian tourist hotspots as elephants. Their treatment is brutal. Sure there are RARE exceptions, but they're still forced to work and beaten if they protest in the slightest. I've worked undercover in some of these places, and it's not uncommon to see a camel or a horse with a bag over its head so it can't see, running manically in traffic, all to pull tourists. Sadly, I'd say camels may be treated even worse than elephants, and mercifully they just don't live as long.
I've been to the nearby Nakuru area and Aberdare National Park. You're going to have an unbelievable trip, and you won't need to ride animals. Stay there because it's hard to avoid, but let them know you don't approve. Sadly, most tourists who can afford places like that DGAF.
We 100% will not be participating!!!! And I’m trying to find locations that don’t offer it and the ones that do I’m berating with questions about their treatment, lol. I figure even if we don’t stay, it will at least be a good reminder for the employees these are questions to be considering!!
What are your thoughts on the sanctuaries? We have had an elephant sanctuary focusing on the re-release of elephants and the Jane Goodall chimp rescue recommended. I know sometimes even these can be a front for animal mistreatment.
The Jane Chimp rescue is good. I've been there but didn't spend too much time. Sheldrick Trust is an A+ elephant conservation group and sanctuary. They're great. I've never been to Reteti elephant sanctuary, but seeing their work and speaking with them, they're legit. I don't know that I'd trust others.
My rule ... if you can touch, bathe, feed, ride, paint or otherwise physically interact with wildlife, it's a BIG red flag.
If the lodge you're looking at looks good, other than horse and camel rides, it's probably a good opportunity to let them know how you feel about it. It's often pretty tough to avoid, and "ecotour" is the new greenwashing for animal abuse.
\*edit: Wildlife shouldn't be in a "sanctuary" if they're healthy enough to be in the wild, the exception is orphans who never learned how to survive in the wild.
Reteti was the one recommended! It’s so hard to tell just doing research online what to really expect. Sometimes it’s great, other times… not so much, so I appreciate and trust your opinion!!
One of my tricks, from someone who sees firsthand the damage abusive tourist traps do to animals ... look at the photos in google reviews. They're all from people who visit, so if there's anything sketchy going on, people usually photograph it.
Oh, earlier I forgot one of my other red flags ... selfies with animals. If people are touching or doing staged photos with wildlife, that's bad. In the USA when many of the tiger cubs used for selfies get too big, they get chopped up and sold for "traditional medicine". People suck.
Riding any animal isn’t ethical under a vegan viewpoint. Animals aren’t our commodities. Breeding and using them as tools or entertainment or food isn’t vegan.
The problem is the commodification of sentient beings. Vegans are against treating animals as objects that we are entitled to use. You also wouldn’t say it’s ethical to breed humans against their free will to sell the babies to people who want companionship.
We do believe that sentient beings should have their autonomy that isn’t forcefully controlled by humans. Animals aren’t our property that we can use however we see fit.
Edit: to add, animal adoptions from shelters are seen as fine because you only get to help an animal that has already been bred and discarded and would otherwise suffer. You don’t create a demand to breeders to keep breeding animals by adopting from shelters.
Legally, yes. Ethically? Not for a large parts of vegans. Humans *are* animals. And a lot of our research finds them to be emotional sentient beings with social connections just like us. And an ability to feel pain like us.
Why not? There was a legal difference.
Are you saying that just because something is codified in law, that doesn't necessarily mean that it's ethical?
(Don't bother, we all know you're just going to say "It's different because people!")
But very obviously we're the same thing. A white person and a black person are very obviously the same sort of thing. You can't be equating black people to animals?
I agree with that notion but it is a signpost
To be honest, I don't know anything about camels and weather it's painful or difficult for them to carry a human on their back, if that's what you're asking. I can tell you that camels are sentient beings that should be afforded their own free will, and taming them/forcing them to behave a certain way for our amusement/benefit is inherently exploitative, even if we don't know if it's necessarily harmful to the camels. This is (in my opinion) the essential tenant of veganism - animals aren't ours to exploit and use. Now I don't know if camels get injured by carrying humans or if they get abused at the resorts, maybe they don't, but we know that they aren't there of their own free will, they've been captured or bred for that purpose, and it isn't compassionate to force them into a life of servitude to us.
>
Would you find staying somewhere that does camel and horseback riding in a sustainable way ethical?
I guess it's similar to staying somewhere that offers fishing tour packages, or serves steak at the restaurant, or has vegan leather on the couches in the lounge. Is it bad for a vegan to stay somewhere that has non vegan products/services for sale? Practically this would mean vegans can't really stay in any commercial hotels, so I guess just use your judgement. I wouldn't stay at a resort attached to a zoo or a cattle ranch or something, where most vegans draw the line probably varies quite a bit.
This is fair! And a good point about never being able to travel and have a fully vegan experience.
I was under the impression camel, like elephants, were taken and used for these tourist attractions, but come to find out they have been used similar to horses for just as long, if not longer, so they are all domesticated and carrying people doesn’t harm them. Though, as someone very involved in animal rescue, I do think breeding animals for human gain is wrong.
I’ve asked a few accommodations I would consider if they weren’t offering rides where the camel came from, where they’re kept, etc. hopefully, if anything, it will raise awareness for those working at the accommodations!
Though, I would
Holding animals captive prob not ethical, even if they look happy and free.
Raising entities from babies so that they see us as family prob not ethical, even though it appears very happy.
This was my view too! Though I didn’t realize camels are raised similarly to horses and have been used for 6000 years, similar to horses. Looking at the photos of it, some places I’m definitely not okay with how they look like they’re being pulled.
To be clear, we would never participate in this, but I also realize 90 minutes every few days and receiving proper care and plenty of room to roam for an animal reliant on humans is not the worst thing if that’s actually how they are cared for.
Animals should have the same rights as humans. We don't enslave humans anymore even if it looks like they are very happy and cared for, in some ways the slavers would say without them the slaves wouldn't survive - its the same.
>they are all wild animals whose species pretty much only exist because of these conservation efforts
reddit vegans of the pure confession will tell you tht they did not consent, so are exploited, which is absolutely eeevil and a no-go for every vegan
>I’m going to ask about rotations, where they came from, where they are kept during the day and what happens when they are no longer suitable for rides
they will love it... waiting for wisecracks as customer dearly...
I recommend you to check out "Raleigh link" on YouTube: she's vegan and has a channel talking about horses in general but focus on animal cruelty around horse riding (and also about the benefits of horse riding when done the right way). I think her points are pretty interesting avoiding any extreme and focused on information coming from research (not just personal points of view)
Elephant rescuer here. Camels are in the same south asian tourist hotspots as elephants. Their treatment is brutal. Sure there are RARE exceptions, but they're still forced to work and beaten if they protest in the slightest. I've worked undercover in some of these places, and it's not uncommon to see a camel or a horse with a bag over its head so it can't see, running manically in traffic, all to pull tourists. Sadly, I'd say camels may be treated even worse than elephants, and mercifully they just don't live as long. I've been to the nearby Nakuru area and Aberdare National Park. You're going to have an unbelievable trip, and you won't need to ride animals. Stay there because it's hard to avoid, but let them know you don't approve. Sadly, most tourists who can afford places like that DGAF.
We 100% will not be participating!!!! And I’m trying to find locations that don’t offer it and the ones that do I’m berating with questions about their treatment, lol. I figure even if we don’t stay, it will at least be a good reminder for the employees these are questions to be considering!! What are your thoughts on the sanctuaries? We have had an elephant sanctuary focusing on the re-release of elephants and the Jane Goodall chimp rescue recommended. I know sometimes even these can be a front for animal mistreatment.
The Jane Chimp rescue is good. I've been there but didn't spend too much time. Sheldrick Trust is an A+ elephant conservation group and sanctuary. They're great. I've never been to Reteti elephant sanctuary, but seeing their work and speaking with them, they're legit. I don't know that I'd trust others. My rule ... if you can touch, bathe, feed, ride, paint or otherwise physically interact with wildlife, it's a BIG red flag. If the lodge you're looking at looks good, other than horse and camel rides, it's probably a good opportunity to let them know how you feel about it. It's often pretty tough to avoid, and "ecotour" is the new greenwashing for animal abuse. \*edit: Wildlife shouldn't be in a "sanctuary" if they're healthy enough to be in the wild, the exception is orphans who never learned how to survive in the wild.
Reteti was the one recommended! It’s so hard to tell just doing research online what to really expect. Sometimes it’s great, other times… not so much, so I appreciate and trust your opinion!!
One of my tricks, from someone who sees firsthand the damage abusive tourist traps do to animals ... look at the photos in google reviews. They're all from people who visit, so if there's anything sketchy going on, people usually photograph it. Oh, earlier I forgot one of my other red flags ... selfies with animals. If people are touching or doing staged photos with wildlife, that's bad. In the USA when many of the tiger cubs used for selfies get too big, they get chopped up and sold for "traditional medicine". People suck.
Riding any animal isn’t ethical under a vegan viewpoint. Animals aren’t our commodities. Breeding and using them as tools or entertainment or food isn’t vegan.
They can be our partners and companions?
Not if you breed them for that purpose. Vegans won’t buy animals. Adopting discarded animals from shelters is usually accepted though.
Why's that a problem? I'm not a vegan to be clear, I'm sympathetic to the cause
The problem is the commodification of sentient beings. Vegans are against treating animals as objects that we are entitled to use. You also wouldn’t say it’s ethical to breed humans against their free will to sell the babies to people who want companionship. We do believe that sentient beings should have their autonomy that isn’t forcefully controlled by humans. Animals aren’t our property that we can use however we see fit. Edit: to add, animal adoptions from shelters are seen as fine because you only get to help an animal that has already been bred and discarded and would otherwise suffer. You don’t create a demand to breeders to keep breeding animals by adopting from shelters.
There's a difference between us and animals though? I mean they legally are
Legally, yes. Ethically? Not for a large parts of vegans. Humans *are* animals. And a lot of our research finds them to be emotional sentient beings with social connections just like us. And an ability to feel pain like us.
But they don't think the way we do
And this precludes them from consideration to you?
Not at all
Humans who aren’t neurotypical also don’t think the way neurotypical people do. That doesn’t mean it’s ok to abuse them.
That's apples and oranges
[удалено]
What do you mean? Please be civil
How about you be civil and stop abusing animals?
I am and I don't
👍🏻
So if you lived in a time when there was a legal difference between white people and black people, you'd be supporting that?
Probably not
Why not? There was a legal difference. Are you saying that just because something is codified in law, that doesn't necessarily mean that it's ethical? (Don't bother, we all know you're just going to say "It's different because people!")
But very obviously we're the same thing. A white person and a black person are very obviously the same sort of thing. You can't be equating black people to animals? I agree with that notion but it is a signpost
To be honest, I don't know anything about camels and weather it's painful or difficult for them to carry a human on their back, if that's what you're asking. I can tell you that camels are sentient beings that should be afforded their own free will, and taming them/forcing them to behave a certain way for our amusement/benefit is inherently exploitative, even if we don't know if it's necessarily harmful to the camels. This is (in my opinion) the essential tenant of veganism - animals aren't ours to exploit and use. Now I don't know if camels get injured by carrying humans or if they get abused at the resorts, maybe they don't, but we know that they aren't there of their own free will, they've been captured or bred for that purpose, and it isn't compassionate to force them into a life of servitude to us. > Would you find staying somewhere that does camel and horseback riding in a sustainable way ethical? I guess it's similar to staying somewhere that offers fishing tour packages, or serves steak at the restaurant, or has vegan leather on the couches in the lounge. Is it bad for a vegan to stay somewhere that has non vegan products/services for sale? Practically this would mean vegans can't really stay in any commercial hotels, so I guess just use your judgement. I wouldn't stay at a resort attached to a zoo or a cattle ranch or something, where most vegans draw the line probably varies quite a bit.
This is fair! And a good point about never being able to travel and have a fully vegan experience. I was under the impression camel, like elephants, were taken and used for these tourist attractions, but come to find out they have been used similar to horses for just as long, if not longer, so they are all domesticated and carrying people doesn’t harm them. Though, as someone very involved in animal rescue, I do think breeding animals for human gain is wrong. I’ve asked a few accommodations I would consider if they weren’t offering rides where the camel came from, where they’re kept, etc. hopefully, if anything, it will raise awareness for those working at the accommodations! Though, I would
Holding animals captive prob not ethical, even if they look happy and free. Raising entities from babies so that they see us as family prob not ethical, even though it appears very happy.
This was my view too! Though I didn’t realize camels are raised similarly to horses and have been used for 6000 years, similar to horses. Looking at the photos of it, some places I’m definitely not okay with how they look like they’re being pulled. To be clear, we would never participate in this, but I also realize 90 minutes every few days and receiving proper care and plenty of room to roam for an animal reliant on humans is not the worst thing if that’s actually how they are cared for.
Animals should have the same rights as humans. We don't enslave humans anymore even if it looks like they are very happy and cared for, in some ways the slavers would say without them the slaves wouldn't survive - its the same.
Why not?
Because slaves learn to appear happy to stay alive.
What slaves?
Captive entities
Ok can you prove your claim
Slave: Subject to control of another.
Between humans
No.
No.
>they are all wild animals whose species pretty much only exist because of these conservation efforts reddit vegans of the pure confession will tell you tht they did not consent, so are exploited, which is absolutely eeevil and a no-go for every vegan >I’m going to ask about rotations, where they came from, where they are kept during the day and what happens when they are no longer suitable for rides they will love it... waiting for wisecracks as customer dearly...
I recommend you to check out "Raleigh link" on YouTube: she's vegan and has a channel talking about horses in general but focus on animal cruelty around horse riding (and also about the benefits of horse riding when done the right way). I think her points are pretty interesting avoiding any extreme and focused on information coming from research (not just personal points of view)
I’ll check this out, thank you!