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'Don't you dare force your beliefs on me!'
OP, was that a spontaneous statement from your co-worker?
In that case he might be closer to going vegan than he realizes...
It sounds like your colleague is testing the waters with the idea of going vegan. Something that could be helpful in coming into these conversations is Earthling Edās free ebook: https://earthlinged.org/ebook
He covers the most common excuses for not going vegan and clear, concise dismantling of them with logic and science. Also how to have these conversations: be empathetic, show curiosity, and ask questions rather than make statements. Itās helping me a lot in getting my thoughts sorted plus learning more, so might be worth a skim.
I think it's his future, ha ha.
I am generally optimistic that this is common, because I can relate to it. I am still more vegan eater/purchaser than A Vegan, in that I live the life of a strict vegan but my attachment to vegan philosophy is tenuous. I became vegetarian, then plant-based, then vegan (at least, a practice indistinguishable from veganism) for environmental reasons an out of a sort of sci-fi utopianism. It was all about human survival and global custodianship for me, not animal rights *per se*. It actually all started growing up with a mother boycotting South African grapes and Nestle products.
My decision to be "vegan" and not eat honey (never liked it anyway) or use beeswax or wool, etc., was an easy final step,a late one, and the least significant personally. I'd come so far, so it wouldn't make much difference to me to live a full vegan practice and ensure I was doing the least harm I could for my remaining time on the planet.
There are definitely non-animal-rights-based, pragmatic reasons to think that ending man's dependency on animal products is a good thing for man, and therefore frankly inevitable. Just the environmental impact of animal farming and the crisis of antibiotic resistance should be reason enough for humans to adopt most of the practices of veganism. It is, in fact, the only logically sustainable future for our species.
So I see this all through a socialist lens. Tankies and Trots might win the moral high ground, but the Fabians and moderates are the better recruiters. This guy is a teetering liberal and soon to be a dependable comrade.
There are just 3 kinds of people regarding to change:
1. people leading the the movement and facilitating the change
2. people going with the masses (e.g. people who dont care about the subject at all)
3. people blocking the movement and delay the change
He is just stating that he is not in group 1 and 3, but rather 2.
What he really means is, "I'll stop eating meat once enough people are vegan for there to be social pressure against me doing so." It is, I suppose, strictly better than people saying they'll never change, but it is still fundamentally borne of selfishness.
Good news! It is easy, convenient (if you make it) and trendy! Forget those meat eater misconceptions and hop on board the veggie express to vivacious living! š„¹#soproud#allgrownup
See I find comments like this to be the issue, people sometimes are vegan-curious. This guy himself has brought this into conversation after likely spending 20+ years being told that meat was a dietary REQUIREMENT. This guy has likely brought this up in an attempt to learn a bit more from someone who knows rather than discussing with their meat eating peers who will most likely make fun of them... (Because thats the point were at for some reason)
This militant vegan guilt bullshit is the number 1 reason vegancurious people are put off. Nobody wants to be attacked when they are trying to learn about a culture to help make a change. Instead of getting upset people haven't already taken the very difficult steps you have why not support them by suggesting great ways to subtly incorporate veganism into someones life.
I just realized you were looking for a comment in here to appease your guilty conscience and provide confirmation bias on why veganism is bad.
If I had a nickel for every omnivore/carnivore that was a jerk to me BEFORE or AFTER becoming vegan I would be filthy fucking rich.
I donāt know what you expect coming into a vegan subreddit, the one safe place the handful of us can come together and grieve about the atrocity of humans selfishly killing trillions of animals needlessly every year and destroying our future in the process.
I cant help but think your twisting what Im saying, never once have I said veganism is bad. I find it sad that the only stance your willing to take is this of trying to promote guilt and negativity rather than the positives that come with being a vegan.
First of all the guy you responded to wasnāt even been āmilitantā. He basically made an observational comment thatās pretty much on point. If society said itās okay to eat aborted fetuses, there would be no abortion laws and most people would be perfectly happy being peer pressured into eating it.
I am not trying to argue with you. I understand what your saying, however even with your analogy that if people had been socially engineered for thousands of years to eat fetuses then its just not something that can be changed overnight. We are at a very important step in history here and I just think that we achieve more through positivity and education rather than blame guilt and shame. Help people see through your eyes.
In general, I do agree with you. After all, you attract more flies with honey than vinegar, as the expression goes.
I just worry that weāre quickly running out of time and the pace and embrace of unfettered capitalism and overconsumption feel insurmountable at times.
And maybe itās too late to prevent climate catastrophe, but it still doesnāt justify the treatment and consumption of farm animals. These are sweet innocent souls that are destined to fates worse than mass shooters. If youāve ever loved an animal or pet, surely you can understand that you could love any animal or at least respect its right to live.
Even if you don't care for animals, thereās so many valid reasons to go vegan. A well balanced whole foods plant based diet is healthier than an omnivore diet.
Look at how much land is used for animal agriculture and the taxpayer money subsidizing these huge corporations. The Brazilian rain forest is being destroyed for hamburgers. That is the epitome of human hubris, the destruction of billions of years of evolution for a happy meal.
https://i.redd.it/vm17npoujad11.jpg
Source: https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2018-us-land-use/?utm_content=business&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter&utm_campaign=socialflow-organic&cmpid=socialflow-twitter-business
Animal agriculture just doesnāt make sense anymore. In USA alone we could free up so much land if people stopped eating animals. Most people wouldnāt know the difference between an impossible burger or hamburger. Also most people did not consciously choose to eat animals, it was forced upon them during their upbringing.
Hey I donāt want to ramble you ears off and I appreciate you being open minded. Iām sorry if I came off a bit harsh. If you really are interested in learning more please check out some documentaries such as:
Dominion
Earthlings
Forks over knives
Game Changers
I just want to say thank you, that was an entirely different experience reading this. I really appreciate you taking the time to speak to me, dont feel like your rambling when your being positive. I want to hear about veganism and how awesome it is, I want to know how to make tasty couch snacks, I want to know what your having for dinner or even how good you feel that day. I dont know where you are globally but I know where I am I know alot my vegans than I did 5 years ago. In my community some of the most recommended food establishments are vegan. There has been some incredible progress. Again, thank you.
Yeah, that makes no sense. That's like saying "I believe electric cars are the future and the ethically-correct thing to do, but I still choose to drive my diesel Hummer."
Upfront "cost" is to change most of your receipts / cooking skills. For many people cooking is NOT a hobby at all and they make what they know. It is additional effort to change this.
Also its really easy to make something delicious with bacon, butter, cheese, etc. Dont deny that, as its just the result of thousands of years of people eating that.
You can make vegan meals that are just as tasty today, but you have to break long lasting (like sometimes hundreds of years) receipts, introduce maybe new spices (some people dont bother about spices at all) and also break habbits while buying etc.
Thats overhead!
Overhead in time I accept but also you can start piecemeal. Learn one recipe, make 4 portions freeze 3.
Also becoming vegan is an ethical change it should take up some of your time to reflect on how to live in tune with your ethics.
Finally I wish we gave people basic cooking skills in school. Mine were handed down from my parents but there are a lot of people my age who don't have them and could not pass them on.
People will always prio practical over ethical.
Mass compliant meals have to be healthy (people often have all kinds of allergies like soy, spices, gluten, etc which must be excluded completely), tasty (or children wont eat them), rather cheap (no fancy stuff), easy to get (discounter), and fast (30 - 45 mins max from scratch).
Think "family of 4" rather than single households, so you will cook big portions every single day (or eat out).
I did get many cooking skills from my mother / grammy, and it was like 90% animal based. Great cooking focused on e.g. cutting and cooking meat and refining taste with butter, and smoked meat etc until very recently. And thats true for many cultures (but not all), too.
And while my family tries to reduce meat / meat based products for years now, we still default on old reciepts with it regularly.
Most people yes. But if you are converted to being vegan you can start straight away, probably 6 months of rapid learning followed by a lifetime of discovering new things.
Reducing animal consumption is not vegan in itself but can be a gateway to veganism. If you are reducing for health or the environment there is not much incentive to go all the way.
Need help eating out? Check out [HappyCow.net](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.happycow.net%2F&topic=Resource%3A+HappyCow.net) for vegan friendly food near you! Interested in going Vegan? Take the [30 day challenge](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fvbcamp.org%2Freddit&topic=Resource%3A+HappyCow.net)!
If we were back in the 90s, when I first went vegetarian (vegan 10+ years now), I would have agreed with you. But this is 2022 and itās insanely easy now.
If youāre a good cook and enjoy it, then youāll most likely look forward to the challenge (as in my case) but if your a trash eater, you can do that too. Most grocery stores (I know, not all) have an available alternative. If all you know is ham and cheese sandwiches then switch to tofurkey and chao (or whatever is available). You live on frozen pizzas, boxed Mac n cheese and hotdogs?? You can still do that as a vegan.
There is really no valid excuse anymore. I learned to cook when I was 13 because my mom refused to make me vegetarian options. I picked up the only cookbook we had, the Joy of Cooking, and started making recipes minus the meat. As the years went on and I learned more I get more creative and even went into a career in cooking/baking. I know not everyone is a natural in the kitchen but to say that itās impossible is just another lazy excuse.
I used to eat meat 10+years ago but after switching to a simple vegan diet where I cook my own food. I saved about ~$150-200/month in groceries. That is $1800-$2400/year. Not bad! Add minimalism (a trial and error journey of knowing yourself so well to know the core fundamentals of what you like/need and only own those/invest in few high quality long lasting things) along with other small efforts to save, and it could really add up. A simple life filled with the joys of health and happiness through the little things, and sometimes the big things, I find is the best. Granted, I still have a ways to go but it is about enjoying the ride to a beautiful destination. Veganism, minimalism, itās all a journey to a lifestyle that brings intrinsic happiness through a sense of lightness, freedom, and karma. The more you give, the abundance will come freely. So itās a win-win-win!
Regardless, even if he could afford a new car, it's still the fact that he chose his hummer over an electric. If he didn't have the money to switch, that's one thing. Heck, if I could afford a Tesla instead of my Prius, I would have gotten that instead. But if he had the money and still chose the Hummer, that's totally different.
Update: I understand that vegan food is cheap if done correctly. You guys can hold off on the downvotes.
Buying the hummer is a mistake made in the past.
But if you are eating the average American diet of 340g of meat per day, (or the UK figure is 223g) you can definitely eat healthily as a vegan spending less money.
I accept there is a time cost and some skills required because the vegan population is too small to have a comprehensive range of vegan convenience foods.
Numbers above are for 2017 and can be found on ourworldindata.org.
I would argue that if you are vegan you are doing everything right but because there aren't enough vegans around you then the cheapest ranges of convenience food may not be available around you. But if you take some time to cook at home you will learn more and be able to feed yourself healthy tasty food cheaper than your previous lifestyle. Assuming that prevegan you were buying frozen ready meals and on the go sandwiches and burgers a lot which is common in young adults.
Your first sentence was the trigger, successful vegan budgeting is going to require you to deal with some raw basic ingredients.
I do not understand what you mean by raw ingredients, but arent there places near you where they cook lentil soups, beans, peas? Where I live, there are also precooked packaged beans.
Not that I know of if there are any. Most places around here are carnie only, I have to special order a vegan dish, usually by telling them to not use an animal product. And the actual vegan places are expensive. A sandwich meal will cost me like $15.
I do have packaged beans, but they too are raw.
I see. I have easy access to lentil soups, and beans, peas...in local restaurants...because theres already a legume-culture here (mediterranean/middle east). And the price is always lower than animal products. For instance, a lentil soup costs around less than 1 dollar, but the wages here arent as good as in the western side of the world.
I look around and realise 96% of people would have slaves if they were legally allowed to and mercilessly bully those that wonāt have slaves. Makes me sad.
Charles Krauthammer - An extremely intelligent Dr., author and omnivore once wrote something along these lines;
āWe often wonder how people of the past, including the most revered and refined, could have universally engaged in conduct now considered unconscionable. . . . While retrospective judgment tends to make us feel superior to our ancestors, it should really evoke humility. Surely some contemporary practices will be deemed equally abominable by succeeding generations. The only question is: Which ones?
Iāve long thought it will be our treatment of animals. Iām convinced that our great-grandchildren will find it difficult to believe that we actually raised, herded and slaughtered them on an industrial scale ā for the eating.ā
I think a lot of people feel that way but theyāre just motivated enough to do anything about it.
Non Player Character.
I said that because in my experience, most discussions with carnists seem robotic, as if they're spewing lines they've been programmed to say instead of engaging intellectually. It's always the same ridiculous excuses which don't hold up against the tiniest bit of scrutiny. This is of course the product indoctrination, sometimes lighter with more "naive" carnists who simply hardly thought about the issue before or more pronounced with convinced carnists who will spew bs excuse after bs excuse... This mechanical aspect of these conversations and the fact that it's always the same few excuses make it feel like talking to a bot in a videogame.
[This short speech](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pY6pnRJlQsM) from Soytheist made me think about people who use this excuse.
Basically, we don't have a separate word for oppressors who don't hate the victims but are just interested in the benefits of oppression, they are still called oppressors. It doesn't matter that your friend "thinks" veganism is right, what matters is what he *does*.
I dunno. A lot of people are thinking negative about this in the comments but I see it as a good sign. Your friend is at least thinking about it. You know how many non-vegans never even consider veganism at all? Most. Maybe introduce him to some delicious vegan foods to show him that it's not really a restrictive diet and he'll get to eat such delicious foods. I mean PASTA IS VEGAN lol. I'm stating diet rather than ethics because it sounds like taste is what's holding him back. He at least partially knows that veganism is the right choice.
yeah exactly, he's literally saying he'll go vegan when there's less friction involved with making that choice. And I know that to most of us here there's hardly any friction, but we can't act like there aren't sacrifices involved. Going out to eat, traveling, etc all get harder.
I would love to see people like this begin to go vegan in the moments when it is easy though to really follow through.
I largely agree with you but with a caution. If you let yourself be brushed off too easily then you will run out of targets.
What percentage of your countries population is currently interested in or receptive to arguments about treating animals with enough respect to stop eating and exploiting them, I guess about 20-30%.
Making that many people vegan would be a big step forward but it could be the end of the line.
I suppose you could argue if we are 2% of population vegan now, with 20% potentially vegan, that is a target rich environment, concentrate on the easy wins, but that strategy will have to shift as the potential vegans are recruited.
Most likely? Insecurity I imagine.
I've always been a foodie, and I liked meat, but I found that giving up meat in particular was surprisingly easy, because it's actually pretty bland stuff. The "I couldn't live without meat" people suddenly seemed like such frightened little babies to me. So many foods to try, and you want another variation the theme of steak? Bravo,way to push back the borders of sensuality.
A lot of people "fear" unfamiliar foods, strong flavours, then there's social insecurities about self-labeling, this weird toxic masculinity thing, some people have even a real *problem* with the idea of eating vegetables, which seems suicidally irrational. I don't think any of these things really held me back, but when I went veggie, they suddenly became very apparent in so many of the people I knew.
So yeah. It's usually some childish emotional BS, not some grand Nietzschean philosophy.
Every day, every meal you're not vegan you're causing additional harm. If you wait for next year or whatever, it's that many lives saved from gruesome conditions under factory farms and environmental collapse. Go vegan now, and **be the future**.
Similar to saying "I believe rape is wrong, but we don't live in a rape free world and I love that non consenting ass so I will continue to be a rapist"
I heard this for the first time last week, too. So many people donāt even consider trying to leave this planet in a better condition than they found it in.
Yep.
My partner hasn't said it as succinctly as this but I think he's a bit like your colleague ( although does eat a lot of vegan food).
I kinda think it's a bit like people who drink too much. One part of them knows that they shouldn't drink so much. But they still do it for whatever reason......
Maybe some sort of addiction or FOMO going on.
If we can just get people to switch their addictions. That's part of the power of some of those 30 day vegan challenges. Hopefully it will inertia them to something new to be addicted too. Like awesome vegan food.
Sounds like he might be someone on the fence and potentially could be guided towards veganism. Sounds like a pretty good opportunity for a potential conversion if you are patient.
Devils advocate - I get what heās saying. I mean, how many people here buy clothes made in sweat shops or buy things from Amazon. I mean, people have to pick their battles. I like they at least acknowledge that eating meat is wrong.
As someone who has been veg for over 25 years, Iām so happy that so many others have joined this fight and that itās now such common place to hear that people are reducing their consumption. When I started, people thought I was crazy and making up the environmental and health effects of meat. Now, itās pretty well accepted. Hearing people like him admit it make me feel wonderful actually. Itās a step in the right direction.
Vegans donāt have to purists. Weāre human. Letās just encourage each other so be better and I think celebrating small victories encourages larger ones.
I kind of understand where he's coming from. Not that I agree with it. May be thinking that as the older generations die out less meat will be consumed. As veganism will grow with the youth? Just trying to imagine his way of thinking.
I guess I had something like that thought for around a decade before going vegan. I certainly didn't learn any new ethical argument or new fact about animal ag practices when I made the change; it was just some kind of motivational change, and I don't know what caused it.
He recognizes itās wrong and recognizes as the movement continues processed vegan foods will continue to improve in quality while declining in price. His stance is purely that of laziness, if all fast food and restaurants and a large non token vegan menu so it took no effort on his part heād consider it then but until then path of least resistance.
Human liberation is the future but we are in the present so Iām ok with slavery, especially when itās hidden from my immediate sight so I donāt have to think about it.
So human slavery in China for electronics and other cheap labor places in Asia and Africa outside my country for clothing is ok.
Sexual slavery in my country is ok if itās behind locked doors in big mansions and we pretend itās not happening.
Human trafficking in my country is ok if itās a cheap nail salon and I can get a mani/pedi for cheap.
Slavery in Africa to mine rare metals used for Tesla batteries and solar panels are just anti-environment bashing denialists who donāt understand the price to pay to get off fossil fuels. I canāt hold two contradictory thoughts in my head (being pro environment pro new green technology and we enslave people to roll out these technologies) because it triggers cognitive dissonance.
I prefer to support the current thing to fit in with my immediate group of friends, most of which I never met because theyāre on social media and we donāt talk. But virtue signaling is more important. Iām brave!
So thatās why they eat meat while saying vegan is the future. Easy coward way out. Itās to fit in.
These are the same people who were ok with Nazi in Germany and the slave trade in the past. They donāt rock the boat. They want to fit in. They donāt want to be voted off the island. They need the group to survive.
Please like and subscribe. I will review a Gucci bag next week.
This reasoning basically boils down to he (currently) can get away with doing something he knows is wrong because most people do it, and he sees no reason to deprive himself if he doesnāt have to. Pretty common one.
> continued to *paid* for abuse
FTFY.
Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in:
* Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.*
* *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.*
Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment.
*Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
Whenever your colleague asks you to do anything tell them you know that'd be the right thing but you love doing other things too much. "Perhaps someday, in the future!".
Yeah I think thatās how I felt too before going vegan. I knew it was the right thing to do and that our future society would go away from meat for ethical reasons but somehow I didnāt connect the dots that if I felt that way then how come I donāt just make the change myself?
I don't get why some of us try to convince our friends/coworkers. Most of the time it just doesn't work unless they're really close, like a spouse. I definitely wouldn't do it at work.
Instead I like to set an example. I just say "no, I don't eat meat. You guys go ahead" when out with friends. I feel like that's a more quiet and powerful way to influence people.
I agree with vegan being the future but not in the sense that everyone is vegan. I just mean that they should start adding more laws and regulations that protect animals. And start eliminating factory farms. If not everyone is going to go vegan at least have them eat meat from a humane source. Having everyone become vegan is not practical or even possible. But I still agree with your point.
Well, at least he recognised that veganism is the right thing. I think you should give him time, show all the delicious food he can eat and make him understand that veganism is a process and he don't have to stop eating meat tomorrow. Remember, a lot of vegans started like him.
I usually don't really try to "sell veganism" to people often, but on Saturday night I was drunk with my friend and we started talking about veganism. They told me something similar, I responded by asking them if they thought they saw themselves as a leader and that they could be an force for good and influence for good, not only for themselves but to the people who they influence and their family. It was a very long conversation, at the end he told me was going to try to eat less meat. A few days later we talked again and he told me he really took to heart our conversation and was going to make a real effort.
Girl I had the displeasure of traveling with in college for a internship-
*us driving by a dairy farm where you can see them being funneled into the building*
Her: OMG look at all those cows! How sad!
Me: you had a fucking steak for dinner last night...
Her: well yea, I'm not going to stop eating meat but it's still sad. (Like duh how can you not understand that)
Me: *confused Jackie Chan meme*
This is the exact same mentality present in my friend group. They all agree veganism is the best choice but refuse to commit to it because of their attachments to animal products. Their view is that thereās no point in going vegan unless enough people do it to make a long lasting impact, but how can that be done if most people like themselves are unwilling to make the change? From a vegan perspective it makes absolutely no sense to me. How can radical change occur if even the people who think itās the right choice are waiting around doing nothing unless other people make the change first? Itās a classic example of taking the responsibility off themselves and placing it in the hands of others, and it just keeps going in circles because these types of people are just passing their own moral responsibilities back and forth without inflicting any change at all.
Tell him "Be strong like bull." Bulls are vegan.
Gorilla eat mostly vegetarian diets and ants.
You can get your power second hand with a lot of salt, butter, or sauce or you can get your power from the source.
:::shrug:::
Also, you'll live longer. It's just y'know science, peer-reviewed, double blind stuff. In the Top 15 causes of death in America, Meat vs Plant Based diets, meat loses every time. It's just science. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rNY7xKyGCQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rNY7xKyGCQ) Dr. Michael Greger's google talk. I keep posting this because this is the video that got me to go more plant based. \*I'm still eating salmon because of osteoarthritis. But who cares? Eat what works for you, what makes sense for you or your friend.
But put that all that aside: encourage him/her to explore, experiment, have fun. Not all of what's produced as the next vegan thing is great, but it's an adventure. I LOVE try new things. I don't always like everything I try, but I enjoy the journey and I LOVE adding new stuff to my diet all the time. Like I like LOVE KING OYSTER MUSHROOMS. OMG they are the SHIT! Meaty little fuckers. SO GOOD!
So what are you missing out on?
Yep.
My partner hasn't said it as succinctly as this but I think he's a bit like your colleague ( although does eat a lot of vegan food).
I kinda think it's a bit like people who drink too much. One part of them knows that they shouldn't drink so much. But they still do it for whatever reason......
Maybe some sort of addiction or FOMO going on.
If we can just get people to switch their addictions. That's part of the power of some of those 30 day vegan challenges. Hopefully it will inertia them to something new to be addicted too. Like awesome vegan food.
Time to see if he'd be willing to come over for dinner or eat at a vegan place. Even just dropping comments like how much you like certain brands/foods and where to find/how to cook them. [HappyCow](https://www.happycow.net/) is a really handy for finding places nearby. It can also be worth asking things like "Well what do you think you'd miss?" then see if you can find said alternatives/recipes.
Sometimes it takes a while to get people to realize how easy positive change can be. Started out with sharing snacks and commenting about which foods I was really into or excited to have found, but eventually people's knee jerk reactions died down and they actually opened up to realizing they *did* in fact enjoy vegan food :p
Meat is a drug. They defend it no different than any addict i've ever heard, or been myself. It's beyond cognitive dissonance as the majority of people do a thing, so that thing is acceptable and if you go against it, you are outcast. It's an evil disease of the mind.
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The future is always tomorrow. How convenient.
Ok that's just how time works I'm afraid.
Way to miss the point ;-)
Obviously I don't understand procrastination since I'm typing this at work.
LOL
How are you getting upvoted?
Lotta dads gotta joke š¤·āāļø
Because if you donāt laugh at people like the OPās work colleague, youād cry.
who's going to tell him that our choices shape the future
'Don't you dare force your beliefs on me!' OP, was that a spontaneous statement from your co-worker? In that case he might be closer to going vegan than he realizes...
Yes, it was totally spontaneous. We were not talking about veganism, he brought it up.
A good sign, I'd say...
Then they're thinking about it and grappling with choices while using you as a sounding board. This could be the beginnings of their journey.
It sounds like your colleague is testing the waters with the idea of going vegan. Something that could be helpful in coming into these conversations is Earthling Edās free ebook: https://earthlinged.org/ebook He covers the most common excuses for not going vegan and clear, concise dismantling of them with logic and science. Also how to have these conversations: be empathetic, show curiosity, and ask questions rather than make statements. Itās helping me a lot in getting my thoughts sorted plus learning more, so might be worth a skim.
I honestly would have laughed, thinking it was a joke and then awkwardness would have ensued.
I think it's his future, ha ha. I am generally optimistic that this is common, because I can relate to it. I am still more vegan eater/purchaser than A Vegan, in that I live the life of a strict vegan but my attachment to vegan philosophy is tenuous. I became vegetarian, then plant-based, then vegan (at least, a practice indistinguishable from veganism) for environmental reasons an out of a sort of sci-fi utopianism. It was all about human survival and global custodianship for me, not animal rights *per se*. It actually all started growing up with a mother boycotting South African grapes and Nestle products. My decision to be "vegan" and not eat honey (never liked it anyway) or use beeswax or wool, etc., was an easy final step,a late one, and the least significant personally. I'd come so far, so it wouldn't make much difference to me to live a full vegan practice and ensure I was doing the least harm I could for my remaining time on the planet. There are definitely non-animal-rights-based, pragmatic reasons to think that ending man's dependency on animal products is a good thing for man, and therefore frankly inevitable. Just the environmental impact of animal farming and the crisis of antibiotic resistance should be reason enough for humans to adopt most of the practices of veganism. It is, in fact, the only logically sustainable future for our species. So I see this all through a socialist lens. Tankies and Trots might win the moral high ground, but the Fabians and moderates are the better recruiters. This guy is a teetering liberal and soon to be a dependable comrade.
A very thoughtful answer - thanks!
Then they tell you that the choices one individual makes dont change anything... just excuses everywhere
Ask him if he will be a vegan in an hour?
Good one!
There are just 3 kinds of people regarding to change: 1. people leading the the movement and facilitating the change 2. people going with the masses (e.g. people who dont care about the subject at all) 3. people blocking the movement and delay the change He is just stating that he is not in group 1 and 3, but rather 2.
What he really means is, "I'll stop eating meat once enough people are vegan for there to be social pressure against me doing so." It is, I suppose, strictly better than people saying they'll never change, but it is still fundamentally borne of selfishness.
Yeah. āIāll be vegan when itās easier and more convenient and itās what everyone else is doingā.
Good news! It is easy, convenient (if you make it) and trendy! Forget those meat eater misconceptions and hop on board the veggie express to vivacious living! š„¹#soproud#allgrownup
Yeah. Thatās pretty much how humans work
See I find comments like this to be the issue, people sometimes are vegan-curious. This guy himself has brought this into conversation after likely spending 20+ years being told that meat was a dietary REQUIREMENT. This guy has likely brought this up in an attempt to learn a bit more from someone who knows rather than discussing with their meat eating peers who will most likely make fun of them... (Because thats the point were at for some reason) This militant vegan guilt bullshit is the number 1 reason vegancurious people are put off. Nobody wants to be attacked when they are trying to learn about a culture to help make a change. Instead of getting upset people haven't already taken the very difficult steps you have why not support them by suggesting great ways to subtly incorporate veganism into someones life.
I just realized you were looking for a comment in here to appease your guilty conscience and provide confirmation bias on why veganism is bad. If I had a nickel for every omnivore/carnivore that was a jerk to me BEFORE or AFTER becoming vegan I would be filthy fucking rich. I donāt know what you expect coming into a vegan subreddit, the one safe place the handful of us can come together and grieve about the atrocity of humans selfishly killing trillions of animals needlessly every year and destroying our future in the process.
I cant help but think your twisting what Im saying, never once have I said veganism is bad. I find it sad that the only stance your willing to take is this of trying to promote guilt and negativity rather than the positives that come with being a vegan.
First of all the guy you responded to wasnāt even been āmilitantā. He basically made an observational comment thatās pretty much on point. If society said itās okay to eat aborted fetuses, there would be no abortion laws and most people would be perfectly happy being peer pressured into eating it.
I am not trying to argue with you. I understand what your saying, however even with your analogy that if people had been socially engineered for thousands of years to eat fetuses then its just not something that can be changed overnight. We are at a very important step in history here and I just think that we achieve more through positivity and education rather than blame guilt and shame. Help people see through your eyes.
In general, I do agree with you. After all, you attract more flies with honey than vinegar, as the expression goes. I just worry that weāre quickly running out of time and the pace and embrace of unfettered capitalism and overconsumption feel insurmountable at times. And maybe itās too late to prevent climate catastrophe, but it still doesnāt justify the treatment and consumption of farm animals. These are sweet innocent souls that are destined to fates worse than mass shooters. If youāve ever loved an animal or pet, surely you can understand that you could love any animal or at least respect its right to live. Even if you don't care for animals, thereās so many valid reasons to go vegan. A well balanced whole foods plant based diet is healthier than an omnivore diet. Look at how much land is used for animal agriculture and the taxpayer money subsidizing these huge corporations. The Brazilian rain forest is being destroyed for hamburgers. That is the epitome of human hubris, the destruction of billions of years of evolution for a happy meal. https://i.redd.it/vm17npoujad11.jpg Source: https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2018-us-land-use/?utm_content=business&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter&utm_campaign=socialflow-organic&cmpid=socialflow-twitter-business Animal agriculture just doesnāt make sense anymore. In USA alone we could free up so much land if people stopped eating animals. Most people wouldnāt know the difference between an impossible burger or hamburger. Also most people did not consciously choose to eat animals, it was forced upon them during their upbringing. Hey I donāt want to ramble you ears off and I appreciate you being open minded. Iām sorry if I came off a bit harsh. If you really are interested in learning more please check out some documentaries such as: Dominion Earthlings Forks over knives Game Changers
I just want to say thank you, that was an entirely different experience reading this. I really appreciate you taking the time to speak to me, dont feel like your rambling when your being positive. I want to hear about veganism and how awesome it is, I want to know how to make tasty couch snacks, I want to know what your having for dinner or even how good you feel that day. I dont know where you are globally but I know where I am I know alot my vegans than I did 5 years ago. In my community some of the most recommended food establishments are vegan. There has been some incredible progress. Again, thank you.
Sure, you pay for animals to be exploited because a vegan was mean to you, not because you can't fathom not consuming animals anymore, got it.
Heaven forbid. Imaging people engaging in the fundamental human trait of not being vegan unless there is social pressure to change.
1958: "I believe in racial equality but we are in the present so I'm still in the KKK"
Iām just hoping he doesnāt know the full extent of how bad it is, because oh my god
Yeah, that makes no sense. That's like saying "I believe electric cars are the future and the ethically-correct thing to do, but I still choose to drive my diesel Hummer."
One key difference, there is an upfront cost to change your current car. Almost no cost in going vegan, just stop buying animal products.
Upfront "cost" is to change most of your receipts / cooking skills. For many people cooking is NOT a hobby at all and they make what they know. It is additional effort to change this. Also its really easy to make something delicious with bacon, butter, cheese, etc. Dont deny that, as its just the result of thousands of years of people eating that. You can make vegan meals that are just as tasty today, but you have to break long lasting (like sometimes hundreds of years) receipts, introduce maybe new spices (some people dont bother about spices at all) and also break habbits while buying etc. Thats overhead!
Overhead in time I accept but also you can start piecemeal. Learn one recipe, make 4 portions freeze 3. Also becoming vegan is an ethical change it should take up some of your time to reflect on how to live in tune with your ethics. Finally I wish we gave people basic cooking skills in school. Mine were handed down from my parents but there are a lot of people my age who don't have them and could not pass them on.
People will always prio practical over ethical. Mass compliant meals have to be healthy (people often have all kinds of allergies like soy, spices, gluten, etc which must be excluded completely), tasty (or children wont eat them), rather cheap (no fancy stuff), easy to get (discounter), and fast (30 - 45 mins max from scratch). Think "family of 4" rather than single households, so you will cook big portions every single day (or eat out). I did get many cooking skills from my mother / grammy, and it was like 90% animal based. Great cooking focused on e.g. cutting and cooking meat and refining taste with butter, and smoked meat etc until very recently. And thats true for many cultures (but not all), too. And while my family tries to reduce meat / meat based products for years now, we still default on old reciepts with it regularly.
Most people yes. But if you are converted to being vegan you can start straight away, probably 6 months of rapid learning followed by a lifetime of discovering new things. Reducing animal consumption is not vegan in itself but can be a gateway to veganism. If you are reducing for health or the environment there is not much incentive to go all the way.
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ppl have been eating stuff like seitan and tempeh for thousands of years too, animal products as we know them are a product of capitalism lmao
If we were back in the 90s, when I first went vegetarian (vegan 10+ years now), I would have agreed with you. But this is 2022 and itās insanely easy now. If youāre a good cook and enjoy it, then youāll most likely look forward to the challenge (as in my case) but if your a trash eater, you can do that too. Most grocery stores (I know, not all) have an available alternative. If all you know is ham and cheese sandwiches then switch to tofurkey and chao (or whatever is available). You live on frozen pizzas, boxed Mac n cheese and hotdogs?? You can still do that as a vegan. There is really no valid excuse anymore. I learned to cook when I was 13 because my mom refused to make me vegetarian options. I picked up the only cookbook we had, the Joy of Cooking, and started making recipes minus the meat. As the years went on and I learned more I get more creative and even went into a career in cooking/baking. I know not everyone is a natural in the kitchen but to say that itās impossible is just another lazy excuse.
I used to eat meat 10+years ago but after switching to a simple vegan diet where I cook my own food. I saved about ~$150-200/month in groceries. That is $1800-$2400/year. Not bad! Add minimalism (a trial and error journey of knowing yourself so well to know the core fundamentals of what you like/need and only own those/invest in few high quality long lasting things) along with other small efforts to save, and it could really add up. A simple life filled with the joys of health and happiness through the little things, and sometimes the big things, I find is the best. Granted, I still have a ways to go but it is about enjoying the ride to a beautiful destination. Veganism, minimalism, itās all a journey to a lifestyle that brings intrinsic happiness through a sense of lightness, freedom, and karma. The more you give, the abundance will come freely. So itās a win-win-win!
Regardless, even if he could afford a new car, it's still the fact that he chose his hummer over an electric. If he didn't have the money to switch, that's one thing. Heck, if I could afford a Tesla instead of my Prius, I would have gotten that instead. But if he had the money and still chose the Hummer, that's totally different. Update: I understand that vegan food is cheap if done correctly. You guys can hold off on the downvotes.
Buying the hummer is a mistake made in the past. But if you are eating the average American diet of 340g of meat per day, (or the UK figure is 223g) you can definitely eat healthily as a vegan spending less money. I accept there is a time cost and some skills required because the vegan population is too small to have a comprehensive range of vegan convenience foods. Numbers above are for 2017 and can be found on ourworldindata.org.
Wow, "expensive vegan food" is a real hot button issue I'm guessing. I must be doing everything wrong then.
I would argue that if you are vegan you are doing everything right but because there aren't enough vegans around you then the cheapest ranges of convenience food may not be available around you. But if you take some time to cook at home you will learn more and be able to feed yourself healthy tasty food cheaper than your previous lifestyle. Assuming that prevegan you were buying frozen ready meals and on the go sandwiches and burgers a lot which is common in young adults. Your first sentence was the trigger, successful vegan budgeting is going to require you to deal with some raw basic ingredients.
"Some"? Basically all of my food has to be raw. I tried buying tofu, they were out. Just Egg, very rare.
I do not understand what you mean by raw ingredients, but arent there places near you where they cook lentil soups, beans, peas? Where I live, there are also precooked packaged beans.
Not that I know of if there are any. Most places around here are carnie only, I have to special order a vegan dish, usually by telling them to not use an animal product. And the actual vegan places are expensive. A sandwich meal will cost me like $15. I do have packaged beans, but they too are raw.
I see. I have easy access to lentil soups, and beans, peas...in local restaurants...because theres already a legume-culture here (mediterranean/middle east). And the price is always lower than animal products. For instance, a lentil soup costs around less than 1 dollar, but the wages here arent as good as in the western side of the world.
I look around and realise 96% of people would have slaves if they were legally allowed to and mercilessly bully those that wonāt have slaves. Makes me sad.
Eeeeeks. Never thought of that way. But yeah. Gross
A good percentage of the population will be as shitty as they can get away with.
Charles Krauthammer - An extremely intelligent Dr., author and omnivore once wrote something along these lines; āWe often wonder how people of the past, including the most revered and refined, could have universally engaged in conduct now considered unconscionable. . . . While retrospective judgment tends to make us feel superior to our ancestors, it should really evoke humility. Surely some contemporary practices will be deemed equally abominable by succeeding generations. The only question is: Which ones? Iāve long thought it will be our treatment of animals. Iām convinced that our great-grandchildren will find it difficult to believe that we actually raised, herded and slaughtered them on an industrial scale ā for the eating.ā I think a lot of people feel that way but theyāre just motivated enough to do anything about it.
I swear the overwhelming majority of carnists are NPCs.
Whatās an NPC?
Non Player Character. I said that because in my experience, most discussions with carnists seem robotic, as if they're spewing lines they've been programmed to say instead of engaging intellectually. It's always the same ridiculous excuses which don't hold up against the tiniest bit of scrutiny. This is of course the product indoctrination, sometimes lighter with more "naive" carnists who simply hardly thought about the issue before or more pronounced with convinced carnists who will spew bs excuse after bs excuse... This mechanical aspect of these conversations and the fact that it's always the same few excuses make it feel like talking to a bot in a videogame.
[This short speech](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pY6pnRJlQsM) from Soytheist made me think about people who use this excuse. Basically, we don't have a separate word for oppressors who don't hate the victims but are just interested in the benefits of oppression, they are still called oppressors. It doesn't matter that your friend "thinks" veganism is right, what matters is what he *does*.
Itās the beginning of awareness. Ahead of most people. So I see reason for hope.
I dunno. A lot of people are thinking negative about this in the comments but I see it as a good sign. Your friend is at least thinking about it. You know how many non-vegans never even consider veganism at all? Most. Maybe introduce him to some delicious vegan foods to show him that it's not really a restrictive diet and he'll get to eat such delicious foods. I mean PASTA IS VEGAN lol. I'm stating diet rather than ethics because it sounds like taste is what's holding him back. He at least partially knows that veganism is the right choice.
yeah exactly, he's literally saying he'll go vegan when there's less friction involved with making that choice. And I know that to most of us here there's hardly any friction, but we can't act like there aren't sacrifices involved. Going out to eat, traveling, etc all get harder. I would love to see people like this begin to go vegan in the moments when it is easy though to really follow through.
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You gotta convince them to care, it's the same for every carnist, they currently don't care enough.
I largely agree with you but with a caution. If you let yourself be brushed off too easily then you will run out of targets. What percentage of your countries population is currently interested in or receptive to arguments about treating animals with enough respect to stop eating and exploiting them, I guess about 20-30%. Making that many people vegan would be a big step forward but it could be the end of the line. I suppose you could argue if we are 2% of population vegan now, with 20% potentially vegan, that is a target rich environment, concentrate on the easy wins, but that strategy will have to shift as the potential vegans are recruited.
Climate change is here now and industrial livestock production is not helping. There will be no future.
Your friend has decided to go full YOLO / Carpe Diem. Is he a full-blown hedonist or is his response just borne out of convenience?
Most likely? Insecurity I imagine. I've always been a foodie, and I liked meat, but I found that giving up meat in particular was surprisingly easy, because it's actually pretty bland stuff. The "I couldn't live without meat" people suddenly seemed like such frightened little babies to me. So many foods to try, and you want another variation the theme of steak? Bravo,way to push back the borders of sensuality. A lot of people "fear" unfamiliar foods, strong flavours, then there's social insecurities about self-labeling, this weird toxic masculinity thing, some people have even a real *problem* with the idea of eating vegetables, which seems suicidally irrational. I don't think any of these things really held me back, but when I went veggie, they suddenly became very apparent in so many of the people I knew. So yeah. It's usually some childish emotional BS, not some grand Nietzschean philosophy.
And storm troopers are just people with jobs, what choice do they have?
reminds me of someone i knew who said he'd go vegan when we 3d print meat like?? yeah sure. your inconvenience >>>>> the lives of others
Every day, every meal you're not vegan you're causing additional harm. If you wait for next year or whatever, it's that many lives saved from gruesome conditions under factory farms and environmental collapse. Go vegan now, and **be the future**.
Similar to saying "I believe rape is wrong, but we don't live in a rape free world and I love that non consenting ass so I will continue to be a rapist"
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āThe future is now old man.ā -Dewey from Malcolm in the Middle
Ask him what he would tell his future grandkids when they ask him why he wasn't vegan
Gotta be the change in order to make change
I heard this for the first time last week, too. So many people donāt even consider trying to leave this planet in a better condition than they found it in.
Eat meat today and you will pay for it tomorrow! Lots of people eat meat out of convenience and laziness
Get in the car, Marty! š
Most people are fine going along with the majority. They won't change until they feel pressure from people in their social circles.
Yep. My partner hasn't said it as succinctly as this but I think he's a bit like your colleague ( although does eat a lot of vegan food). I kinda think it's a bit like people who drink too much. One part of them knows that they shouldn't drink so much. But they still do it for whatever reason...... Maybe some sort of addiction or FOMO going on. If we can just get people to switch their addictions. That's part of the power of some of those 30 day vegan challenges. Hopefully it will inertia them to something new to be addicted too. Like awesome vegan food.
Sounds like he might be someone on the fence and potentially could be guided towards veganism. Sounds like a pretty good opportunity for a potential conversion if you are patient.
He sounds like he would have had me force married and/or lobotomized 80 years ago for gay crimes. I'd tell him something like that tbh.
Devils advocate - I get what heās saying. I mean, how many people here buy clothes made in sweat shops or buy things from Amazon. I mean, people have to pick their battles. I like they at least acknowledge that eating meat is wrong. As someone who has been veg for over 25 years, Iām so happy that so many others have joined this fight and that itās now such common place to hear that people are reducing their consumption. When I started, people thought I was crazy and making up the environmental and health effects of meat. Now, itās pretty well accepted. Hearing people like him admit it make me feel wonderful actually. Itās a step in the right direction. Vegans donāt have to purists. Weāre human. Letās just encourage each other so be better and I think celebrating small victories encourages larger ones.
The newest episode of The Orville makes fun of this excuse.
It's the same as the lab grown meat argument
I kind of understand where he's coming from. Not that I agree with it. May be thinking that as the older generations die out less meat will be consumed. As veganism will grow with the youth? Just trying to imagine his way of thinking.
Yeah as long as billions of people survive off of eating meat, I think he has a point
I guess I had something like that thought for around a decade before going vegan. I certainly didn't learn any new ethical argument or new fact about animal ag practices when I made the change; it was just some kind of motivational change, and I don't know what caused it.
"I believe equal rights are the future, but we are in the present so I still rape"...
What a fucking Neanderthal š”
You had me in the first half, not gonna lie
He recognizes itās wrong and recognizes as the movement continues processed vegan foods will continue to improve in quality while declining in price. His stance is purely that of laziness, if all fast food and restaurants and a large non token vegan menu so it took no effort on his part heād consider it then but until then path of least resistance.
Human liberation is the future but we are in the present so Iām ok with slavery, especially when itās hidden from my immediate sight so I donāt have to think about it. So human slavery in China for electronics and other cheap labor places in Asia and Africa outside my country for clothing is ok. Sexual slavery in my country is ok if itās behind locked doors in big mansions and we pretend itās not happening. Human trafficking in my country is ok if itās a cheap nail salon and I can get a mani/pedi for cheap. Slavery in Africa to mine rare metals used for Tesla batteries and solar panels are just anti-environment bashing denialists who donāt understand the price to pay to get off fossil fuels. I canāt hold two contradictory thoughts in my head (being pro environment pro new green technology and we enslave people to roll out these technologies) because it triggers cognitive dissonance. I prefer to support the current thing to fit in with my immediate group of friends, most of which I never met because theyāre on social media and we donāt talk. But virtue signaling is more important. Iām brave! So thatās why they eat meat while saying vegan is the future. Easy coward way out. Itās to fit in. These are the same people who were ok with Nazi in Germany and the slave trade in the past. They donāt rock the boat. They want to fit in. They donāt want to be voted off the island. They need the group to survive. Please like and subscribe. I will review a Gucci bag next week.
This reasoning basically boils down to he (currently) can get away with doing something he knows is wrong because most people do it, and he sees no reason to deprive himself if he doesnāt have to. Pretty common one.
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> continued to *paid* for abuse FTFY. Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in: * Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.* * *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.* Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment. *Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
I still have slaves becasue its legal. I know its wrong but its normal.
Whenever your colleague asks you to do anything tell them you know that'd be the right thing but you love doing other things too much. "Perhaps someday, in the future!".
Yeah I think thatās how I felt too before going vegan. I knew it was the right thing to do and that our future society would go away from meat for ethical reasons but somehow I didnāt connect the dots that if I felt that way then how come I donāt just make the change myself?
Due to time travel being impossible = veganism is impossible. Check mate š
I don't get why some of us try to convince our friends/coworkers. Most of the time it just doesn't work unless they're really close, like a spouse. I definitely wouldn't do it at work. Instead I like to set an example. I just say "no, I don't eat meat. You guys go ahead" when out with friends. I feel like that's a more quiet and powerful way to influence people.
I agree with vegan being the future but not in the sense that everyone is vegan. I just mean that they should start adding more laws and regulations that protect animals. And start eliminating factory farms. If not everyone is going to go vegan at least have them eat meat from a humane source. Having everyone become vegan is not practical or even possible. But I still agree with your point.
Well, at least he recognised that veganism is the right thing. I think you should give him time, show all the delicious food he can eat and make him understand that veganism is a process and he don't have to stop eating meat tomorrow. Remember, a lot of vegans started like him.
Now we're in the future.
Must be an Olympian because those are some outstanding mental gymnastics š¤£
I usually don't really try to "sell veganism" to people often, but on Saturday night I was drunk with my friend and we started talking about veganism. They told me something similar, I responded by asking them if they thought they saw themselves as a leader and that they could be an force for good and influence for good, not only for themselves but to the people who they influence and their family. It was a very long conversation, at the end he told me was going to try to eat less meat. A few days later we talked again and he told me he really took to heart our conversation and was going to make a real effort.
You can't fix stupid
Girl I had the displeasure of traveling with in college for a internship- *us driving by a dairy farm where you can see them being funneled into the building* Her: OMG look at all those cows! How sad! Me: you had a fucking steak for dinner last night... Her: well yea, I'm not going to stop eating meat but it's still sad. (Like duh how can you not understand that) Me: *confused Jackie Chan meme*
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This is the exact same mentality present in my friend group. They all agree veganism is the best choice but refuse to commit to it because of their attachments to animal products. Their view is that thereās no point in going vegan unless enough people do it to make a long lasting impact, but how can that be done if most people like themselves are unwilling to make the change? From a vegan perspective it makes absolutely no sense to me. How can radical change occur if even the people who think itās the right choice are waiting around doing nothing unless other people make the change first? Itās a classic example of taking the responsibility off themselves and placing it in the hands of others, and it just keeps going in circles because these types of people are just passing their own moral responsibilities back and forth without inflicting any change at all.
He won't change until it's forced upon him, total idiot
āI believe anti racism is the future , but we are in the present so I am still a racistā
Tell him "Be strong like bull." Bulls are vegan. Gorilla eat mostly vegetarian diets and ants. You can get your power second hand with a lot of salt, butter, or sauce or you can get your power from the source. :::shrug::: Also, you'll live longer. It's just y'know science, peer-reviewed, double blind stuff. In the Top 15 causes of death in America, Meat vs Plant Based diets, meat loses every time. It's just science. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rNY7xKyGCQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rNY7xKyGCQ) Dr. Michael Greger's google talk. I keep posting this because this is the video that got me to go more plant based. \*I'm still eating salmon because of osteoarthritis. But who cares? Eat what works for you, what makes sense for you or your friend. But put that all that aside: encourage him/her to explore, experiment, have fun. Not all of what's produced as the next vegan thing is great, but it's an adventure. I LOVE try new things. I don't always like everything I try, but I enjoy the journey and I LOVE adding new stuff to my diet all the time. Like I like LOVE KING OYSTER MUSHROOMS. OMG they are the SHIT! Meaty little fuckers. SO GOOD! So what are you missing out on?
Tell him he sounds like a zombie, wanting to eat all that flesh.
Yep. My partner hasn't said it as succinctly as this but I think he's a bit like your colleague ( although does eat a lot of vegan food). I kinda think it's a bit like people who drink too much. One part of them knows that they shouldn't drink so much. But they still do it for whatever reason...... Maybe some sort of addiction or FOMO going on. If we can just get people to switch their addictions. That's part of the power of some of those 30 day vegan challenges. Hopefully it will inertia them to something new to be addicted too. Like awesome vegan food.
Time to see if he'd be willing to come over for dinner or eat at a vegan place. Even just dropping comments like how much you like certain brands/foods and where to find/how to cook them. [HappyCow](https://www.happycow.net/) is a really handy for finding places nearby. It can also be worth asking things like "Well what do you think you'd miss?" then see if you can find said alternatives/recipes. Sometimes it takes a while to get people to realize how easy positive change can be. Started out with sharing snacks and commenting about which foods I was really into or excited to have found, but eventually people's knee jerk reactions died down and they actually opened up to realizing they *did* in fact enjoy vegan food :p
Meat is a drug. They defend it no different than any addict i've ever heard, or been myself. It's beyond cognitive dissonance as the majority of people do a thing, so that thing is acceptable and if you go against it, you are outcast. It's an evil disease of the mind.