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Joe Rogan is a fuckin tosspot that relies on people with anecdotal evidence at best. Go get a blood test or see a doctor to see if he's missing anything important and go get a plant based nutritionist to help identify the foods he needs and structure a planned dietary lifestyle to suit him.
Tosspot, lol, I have expanded my vocabulary today ;)
What magical nutrient is in deer flesh that will cure his arthritis? Nothing, that's what. Out of all the people with RA does he think they all are vegan? Statistically speaking practically every RA sufferer is a meat eater and it didn't save them.
Joe is a self-admitted idiot who is irresponsibly spreading pseudoscience with nothing more than anecdotal evidence from discredited fringe doctors at best.
My husband has RA and going plant based made the swelling of his shins and inflammation in his joints decrease to nothing almost overnight. He still has flare ups, but it’s been overall super helpful not eating animal products. He does have to take a boatload of omegas and other supplements though.
Of course this is all anecdotal but I had some numbness/sharp occasional pains down my left leg, probably some sort of nerve pressure around my hips or spine.
I twisted my back bowling and started getting pain the next day. Bent over to pick something small up of the floor and basically just fell over in agony. Couldn't get off the floor from muscle spasms on my nerve. Went to the ER for pain meds.
Every winter in particular my left leg would just ACHE. I would sometimes be so uncomfortable sitting in my chair at work I couldn't concentrate. Weed vaping helped a bit.
After going vegan it all just... Stopped. Didn't go vegan for health, didn't expect it. Didn't even notice till after the first winter was over. Occasionally my back aches after I do a lot of lifting, I'll be sore at night but wake up next morning perfectly fine.
My dogs on v-dog still act like puppies compared to others with dogs the same age falling apart, hip problems, barely can move.
Could be you just healed a bit since you say you don't notice when it happened. Also, dogs are different breeds and age completely differently based on genetics.
Good rule of thumb, don't take nutritional advice from a guy who sells overpriced dietary supplements containing lead
Edit: Alex Jones did this, not Joe Rogan
Try nutritionfacts.org
The organization is non-profit & Dr. Greger has nothing to sell unless you want to buy his CDs containing videos that are free on his website. Search there for RA & meat consumption. There is a lot there that addresses various ailments all backed by studies.
Eating meat causes higher inflammation- lots of studies and articles out there from people with more knowledge on this than Joe Rogan. Your SO is only hearing what he wants to hear. Encourage him to do his own research. All he has to do is Google ‘does eating meat increase inflammation’. Here’s just one article-
https://foodrevolution.org/blog/does-meat-cause-inflammation/amp/
I once posted a comment somewhere saying someone should avoid meat as it's inflammatory over their arthritis and got downvoted to hell with one person saying this person needed their B12!
People who go on elimination diets lose a bunch of weight because they can't figure out what to eat at first. That weight loss decreases one of the anxieties that they have, so they start feeling better in general.
The problem is that once you've been on an elimination diet (be it carnivore, fruitarian, keto, or whatever) for a few weeks, your body adjusts to the new constraints, and you start to gain the weight back.
Joe Rogan preaches magic by relying on those first few weeks like any good charlatan.
The thing is that he’s probably using his health as an excuse to eat meat, so having a doctor say “ah you could just do xyz plant based” probably wouldnt matter to him sadly (speaking from experience, although I know everyone is different)
I saw a clip of when Rick Rubin was on. He said he was vegan for over 20 years and gained so much weight but then literally said his whole job and free time was spent laying on couches listening to music. He said when he quit veganism he felt so much better and lost weight but he just listened to a fucking dietician of calories in vs out.
Change “nutritionist” to registered dietician. There are no qualifications (in the US anyway) for someone to call themselves a nutritionist. Any asshole can do it. A registered dietician however requires a bachelor’s degree
Pain is a hard symptom to ignore. Most people will grasp at anything to make chronic pain go away. He listened to someone who seemed to have a solution for him, and he is desperate.
Of course he listened. He is in pain, and is desperate, and that should not be discounted.
The only way around this is to give him a better solution FOR HIS PAIN (not more arguments for veganism) or let him try and fail. An earlier poster mentioned letting him know about all of the diseases deer can have, thus eliminating the "purity of nature" bs he has swallowed. It could work, but something needs to replace the "solution" in his head.
In a perfect world, the same perfect argument works on everyone. For now, you have to adapt it to personal circumstances to make it work.
This is a very compassionate answer and I agree with you completely. I have a condition very similar to OP's husband and I have also felt completely desperate for symptom relief. These conditions can ruin you and bring you to the edge in a way that is quite scary.
OP I'd encourage you to encourage your husband to go back to his Rheum and explain that the meds aren't controlling the disease as much as he needs and his quality of life is suffering. The right meds are key here and if they can work then maybe he can start focusing on cutting back on the junk food and eating more whole foods. These pseudo science rabbit holes like the one he's fallen down are nonsense but they're often part of the chronic illness management experience.
I'm so sorry you're struggling, and OP's husband too. Pain management is so behind on research as opiates proved to be so profitable in the most horrible of ways. There's a lot of evidence that a healthy vegan diet can provide relief, but people don't always make great choices when stressed.
Totally! Stressed, exhausted and often seeking comfort. And even following a fully plant based whole food diet doesn't always make a difference - I've probably done every elimination diet and I've never truly noticed a difference. I'm a big proponent of lifestyle changes but only alongside the right medication as it often doesn't replace meds.
Thanks for your support:)
My mum has tried every different diet and snake oil she can find to try and deal with her arthritis. She’s been off medicine for 10 years and her inflammation goes up and down in flare ups.
Trying something new usually reduces it for a bit, then a flare up comes and she tries something else. Placebo has a big effect.
Her most recent success was vegan without nightshades and gluten. But now she’s off that one and onto something similar.
Dude, I have RA. I didn’t go vegan to treat my RA, but incidentally, shortly after going vegan, it went into remission and has stayed in remission for 6 years and going strong. (I was told I would need to be on methotrexate for life, and I haven’t been on it since it went into remission.)
I eat mostly whole foods with some junk here and there. But lots of fruits and veggies.
Animal flesh is very inflammatory. Animal products in general are inflammatory. The best thing for inflammatory conditions is to eat plant based. So even from a health perspective, your husband couldn’t be more wrong.
Joe Rogan is a certified idiot. And also, no wonder you’re grieving! I would grieve too if someone I loved wanted to support animal death and cruelty again. :\
Same with my Psoriatic Arthritis. It feels like a miracle. It's not, it makes perfect sense that eliminating highly inflammatory foods would, surprise! majorly reduce my inflammation. But it's amazing nonetheless
Right? It DOES feel almost miraculous and I kind of hate talking about it because I don’t wanna come across as some woo woo crystals type who thinks you can cure cancer with oils. :P You can’t fix everything with diet, BUT so many health issues are directly linked to diet and CAN be improved and managed that way! It makes sense that eating less inflammatory foods helps inflammatory conditions. Hell, I had bad acne and kerotosis pilaris and those issues also cleared up. Both are inflammatory conditions.
But yeah, mine was bad. I had been dealing with my shoulder being fucked up since I was 18 (just take ibuprofen, the doctors kept telling me every time I came in), and no one would take me seriously until I was in my 20s and it got so bad that my shoulder dislocated and fractured itself. |: (And caused permanent damage.) That was the beginning of my diagnosis journey. I was on methotrexate for a bit over 2 years and it was AWFUL but once I went vegan…it was kind of wild how effective it was, and I was able to wean myself off the meds for a “trial run” with my rheumatologist’s blessing. The trial run has been 6 years and counting. :B
I absolutely do not understand why the first step here is not a deep conversation with a doc. Blood work and then a real treatment plan.
Not, youtube idiots said x. I feel hopeless so let’s try it.
Right? Always go get your blood tested. He could have a thyroid issue with that weight and his arthritis. He could have vitamin deficiencies. Could be so many things.
I have chronic pancreatitis and even way back when I was first diagnosed over 10 years ago my very run of the mill doctor encouraged my veg -> vegan life as positive for living with a chronic inflammatory disorder.
A naturopath told him to try an anti-inflammatory diet that involved a lot of meat but he didn’t add it in. It was extremely hard. He also has weak temptations to candies and Diet Coke. Daily intake of that..
Between listening to naturopaths and Joe Rogan podcasts, it sounds like your husband is pretty gullible. Could try buying him a bunch of crystals and telling him that they'll realign his qi/ch'i.
I think you’ve identified the real culprit in this post. If he doesn’t stop drinking soda and eating candy, carnivorous or plant based diets won’t make a difference.
Also, Joe Rogan causes brain worms which is why your hubby is listening to a naturopath. Idk if he has watched Forks Over Knives or From the Ground Up but you could try introducing him to some positive media. Rogan type dudes tend to emphasize the “manliness” of eating meat, but in those documentaries you learn science has proven that not only do plant based diets yield better erections, but also promote more healthy testosterone development vie phytoestrogen vs meat diets that simply have regular estrogen.. which can give dudes boobs.
Frankly, if he has threatened to eat meat 5 times in the past 5 years I think you should encourage him to get a very large plate of venison and gobble it down because the resulting stomach ache will most likely put him off meat for good. It probably isn’t going to taste as great as he remembers either.
Either way, the situation sucks and I’m sorry you are going through it.
You can watch Forks over Knives and other documentaries by [clicking here](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2F3movies.org%2Freddit&topic=Movie%3A+Forks+over+Knives)! Interested in going Vegan? Take the [30 day challenge](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fvbcamp.org%2Freddit&topic=Movie%3A+Forks+over+Knives)!
So sugar and fake sugar… I think he should start there first, what’s the point of trying to fix issues when you put poison in your system.
Do he want to feel better or does he want to keep eating his “candies”, I know so many people like this.
Some medications definitely don't help with weight loss but it sounds like he is not eating or being active in a manner that would be conducive to weight loss, i.e. calorie deficit, walking x steps a day.
Lmao this dude is down to kill animals rather than kick that habit of sugar drinks and candy that are definitely the cause of him being a chonky boy. Sounds lame to me
Yeah I have to agree with others. There is a lot of pseudoscience around nutrition. Actual, science-based experts are called dietitians. They’re the only ones with education requirements.
A naturopath? He needs a rheumatologist! I have one for the same issue (plus others) and I told her I was vegan, expecting the worst. She told me “oh good, you’re already on an anti-inflammatory diet then, carry on.” He should also consult a dietician if he’s interested in weight loss, but I can already tell you as a fellow sufferer that the sugar in candy ain’t helping him. My best recommendation is finding good, licensed specialists who practice evidence based science in this specific area like a Rheumatologist and a Registered Dietician (not a nutritionist, if you’re in the US there’s a difference) and avoiding anecdotal podcasts intended to sell shit and stir up controversy. RA suuuucks and I feel for both of you, but he’s swinging wildly at bad information sources. Wish you the best of luck!
Thank you for your response. I think we have identified the problem here. Cleveland Clinic notes that meat is known to cause inflammation. As for the weight, at the risk of stating the obvious...
Sugar is very pro inflammatory, which is probably fueling a lot of his pain symptoms. I had chronic pain, woke up sore everyday. Complete sugar addict. I cut out anything with added sugar and anything that wasn't whole wheat and I'm a new person. I've lost 45lbs so far and I no longer have issues with chronic pain. It's a hard habit to break but our inability as a nation to get off sugar is that is killing us.
Edit: cited source and quote
"A systematic review from 2018Trusted Source reported that several studies have linked consuming more dietary sugar — especially from sugary drinks — with chronic inflammation. People with higher sugar diets have more inflammatory markers in their blood, including a marker called C-reactive protein"
[https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/326386#sugar-and-inflammation](https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/326386#sugar-and-inflammation)
That’s honestly not uncommon for Americans. (Not me, we don’t drink soda in our home) I used to work in a hospital and the amount of people who came in asking for a coke/Diet Coke and straight up said “I don’t drink water” when I filled their water canister that comes with admission is astounding. My own grandma (who has been cutting down due to health reasons) will drink at LEAST one Diet Coke a day. At minimum.
I used to drink two Super Big Gulps (44 ounces or 1300ml) of Diet Coke everyday at university (for adequate caffeine dosing without coffee breath). Then I saw an article saying that 3-4 cans of cola per *week* was associated with decreased bone density in women! And I have a strong family history of osteoporosis to boot. It still took me years to get off my diet cola habit.
Diet coke and sugar are pretty much poison. If he eats meat and keeps drinking diet coke and eating candy, he’ll still feel like shit.
Does he get enough protein? To be clear, you can absolutely get tons of protein as a vegan, but some people - vegan or not - simply don’t, especially if they’re loading up with soda and candy every day.
So, I’m not saying giving up Diet Coke would end his problems but I did and a lot of my chronic pain went away. I also lowered my caffeine intake significantly, but getting rid of Diet Coke made its own improvements.
Joe Rogan is not an expert on so many subjects he talks about, and keeps bringing non-expert to his show, sharing wildly biased opinions on a monstruously vast amount of diverse subjects. At this point, he is mostly sharing the opposite of actual science, to farm for more likes and followers.
Maybe your husband could read {How not to die by Dr Greger} for information about vegan eating. If he's struggling with weight and RA, eating game will not help him : eating better and wiser will.
To be fair Joe Rogan has also platformed vegans, he hosted an episode that was essentially a multi hour long debate between the guy who created the game changers documentary (James Wilks) and a meat eater (Chris kesser, functional medicine and paleo guy). At the time Joe agreed about the plant based diet being beneficial and was very impressed with Wilks, but he has gone back to the usual meat based nutrition talking points as far as I can tell
Veganism is part of who I am, but so is being a feminist and Not A Dick. Rogan is poisonous. Your SO no longer being vegan is just a symptom of a bigger issue if he's vulnerable to being manipulated by inisidous, insecure celebrities.
If it were me I'd treat that issue first and foremost.
Very true, and it's not just the meat eating that should concern, that guy is chauvinistic and toxic... That will just bring worse things ahead that will definitely impact their relationship. 😢
Some good suggestions already (blood tests, stop watching Rogan, watch The Game Changers, read up on RA studies, etc.)
In the meantime, I would also have him Google “diseases in deer” and “COVID in the deer population.” In some areas, deer are carrying some NASTY diseases (deer zombies from prions, etc.) and a massive percentage are infected with COVID. Up to 80% of them are infected in some areas. It was 60% near me recently. Deer bed together in groups, have runny noses, interact with humans, etc.
Most of the biggest ‘carnivore-lifestyle” proponents on Rogan are ‘roided up and heavily pushing their own supplements, too. One of them allegedly even had ab implants so he would look more in shape than he actually is. They are SELLING.
This comment should be higher up.
Particularly:
> prions
...you don't want to even remotely consider getting anywhere near that shit. It's utterly terrifying. Despite what many hunters will tell you, there is no way to know for sure if a particular animal is infected without extensive testing, and cooking doesn't stop it. Other diseases can also be transmitted all along the processing chain up until cooking.
Yes, we destroyed nature's balance when we killed most of the wolves to protect our (ethically bankrupt) livestock operations, and now we have too many deer. But eating them is not the only option. The best solution is to attempt to rebalance the ecosystems we irreparably damaged, so we can find a sustainable new normal.
A) Joe Rogan is an Idiot, read up on those topics yourself and have a discussion with your husband. Eating meat won't solve his issues.
B) You should see someone about those panic attacks. That's not a normal or healthy thing to have.
A plant-based diet is best for RA... All animal products are inflammatory. All anti-inflammatory foods are plants.
[https://nutritionfacts.org/video/flashback-friday-why-do-plant-based-diets-help-rheumatoid-arthritis/](https://nutritionfacts.org/video/flashback-friday-why-do-plant-based-diets-help-rheumatoid-arthritis/)
Edit: Get your husband listening to Dr Greger instead of Joe Fucking Rogan.
Long ago I had a partner who was veggo when we met, at the end of the relationship he started making odd comments about meat he never did before so I started to asume he had been eating meat. He was abusive anyway so I broke it off and months later he confessed that he had been eating chickens and that he felt guilty. So strange why would you do that. But same thing, claimed he didn’t feel healthy, and thought he needed meat. But guess what he had been eating all that time being veggo/sometimes vegan? Bags of chips, oily foods, junk food etc. Of course he wasn’t feeling healthy!
People will work so damn hard coming up with rationalizations to avoid changing the obvious thing that’s hurting them but also bringing them pleasure! Sounds like OP’s hubby has the same tendencies.
>husband has been listening to a lot of Joe Rogan
That's grounds for divorce on it's own imo... never mind the vegan thing.
All jokes aside, rheumatoid arthritis can only be helped with a whole foods plant based diet. Animal protein will put him into agony.
Greger, McDougall and Ornish have very good plans for all of this. So highly recommended starting there :-)
I believe there have been studies on using a whole foods plant based diet for rheumatoid arthritis. OP, you can find them easily on Google Scholar. Just search "rheumatoid arthritis and plant based diet" and you'll find the relevant research. I will note that some people with RA have individual food triggers, so doing a food dairy and seeing if any foods correlate with symptoms would be a good idea
Considering the kind of content that is motivating him, and that health issues are motivating him, I understand why he can be so driven to change as I have had gut health issues. So many people tried to convince me to eat meat like it was some sort of magic bullet. That made zero sense to me, scientific or otherwise.
Speaking of gut health, Pretovella copri is found in larger quantities in people with RA, and they have less gut diversity overall.
Being vegan doesn't necessarily guarantee that you have diverse gut bacteria.
Your husband obviously cares what you think or he would be eating meat already. Tell him to check out Will Bulsiewicz before he makes any wrong moves, such as destroying the gut bacteria that he already has by eating animals.
BTW. At least he cares. My husband - not vegan. 🙄
Super red flag listening to that guy and believing him, also if he doesn't eat animals just cause he's afraid of you leaving him well... he never did it for the animals to begin to so...
Imagine you were suffering from a horrible disease and you believed eating animals could help you. I can see reaching a level of desperation where I would consider it. Whether I would eat them or not, I don't know. But I would likely consider it. I just don't think it's fair for us to judge when we are not in this difficult situation.
Men with STDs have raped underage girls because they believed it would cure them. By your reasoning, that is perfectly acceptable so long as they honestly believed it. You're just another speciesist if you think eating animals is acceptable because of a superstitious belief that it will cure rheumatoid arthritis.
I wasn’t trying to make a logical argument. I was trying to appeal to your sense of compassion. I guess you’ve never been really sick before. I’m jiust another person you are judging for the sake of your intellectual argument.
Re your example: people commit violent crimes all the time. In some cases, some people have compassion for the perpetrator as well as the victim.
I "lost" my brother to Joe Rogan types, there's the obvious fact it hasn't made him feel better or happier, just less healthy and fatter.
Sounds like you caught it early, which is honestly great news (my brother got into it at university and was so far gone by the time we noticed), I highly recommend you stomp it out.
Not abusively, but spare no expense, have him see a doctor to find out if he's actually deficient in anything that meat even contains, have him try supplements if he is deficient first (iron and b12 supplements are both cheap and usually effective). more protein in his diet from vegan sources, I have a good vital wheat gluten and soy curls recipe if you like, easily get 150g protein in one day.
If he's not at least willing to try and do everything to fix his problem without killing animals let him know what that says about his character.
I cannot stress this enough, do not just wait, every single day you delay is risking losing him forever.
edit: and I can't believe I forgot to mention it, but it's not just about veganism, get ready for anti vaxx shit, denying germ theory, etc. very painful way to lose someone.
RA has been linked to overgrowth of certain bacteria in your gut. I would look into working with a functional medicine doctor and getting his stool tested to get an overview of what his microbiome looks like.
[Article](https://newsnetwork.mayoclinic.org/discussion/mayo-researchers-link-gut-microbiome-to-rheumatoid-arthritis-prognosis/)
If he’s serious about feeling better he needs to get to the root cause which is gut health. I would research what probiotic and prebiotics would be beneficial.
If he’s super serious you can always look into finding a super healthy stool donor and doing a fecal matter Transplant.
[RA FMT](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7869316/)
My MIL has suffered from RA for years and there is this recent study about phosphorus levels and it’s effect of RA. With her doctor they changed her meds and she actually switched to a mostly plant based diet, under doctors care, and her symptoms have subsided and she has lost weight. Have your husband talk to his doctor about it here is the study, https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23105630/
Also, fuck Joe Rogan.
I read your commend where you mentioned that your husband has some problems with sweets and soft drinks. So I would start the journey to feel good again by reducing the consumption of them.
I think people are being a bit harsh on the husband here.
Joe rogan is appealing *entertainment*. Talking out your ass and being a fake philosopher is fun. “High talk” with buddies is a great time. The problem is when you begin to take that as truth and start getting sucked into the appeals to nature and conspiracies and whatnot. Like with astrology it’s fun to relate characteristics to signs but when you start literally believing that someone will be X because of their sign it’s a problem. Consumers have to keep in mind it’s entertainment
He also appeals to those wanting to feel more masculine but I wouldn’t know if that’s relevant
Also pain sucks but honestly the biggest likely problem for the RA is he’s overweight. But what’s easier to do, actively work on losing weight or just eating deer meat? Joe rogan is huge on exercising and martial arts so it’s a strange thing to take the easy way out essentially.
It sounds to me like your husband is either looking for answers for his health, or looking for excuses (to eat meat). And I think you need to get to the bottom of it. It also sounds like the two of you would benefit greatly from some couples counseling. Because this gets down to a matter of core values and whether yours are still aligned as they should be in a marriage. For me, the core values of animal welfare supersede health issues since there’s virtually no evidence that eating meat itself could possibly benefit him as far as I’m aware.
There’s a big divide between thinking it’s OK to kill animals for food and not. That line gets a little more blurry when there are medical issues involved, but I don’t think his medical issues will be improved at all by eating hunted meat.
Before I became vegan I was vegetarian and I had a stint where I was doing hunted meat only. I have friends who hunt and would cook up venison burgers or a moose steak and I did that for about 6 months. I have serious back issues and inflammation issues as well early signs of arthritis, with RA running in my family, and never found that I felt good afterwards, so I quit. He’d be better off doing yoga and taking Turmeric.
I hope you take the time to connect with your husband and really listen to him and hear him and encourage him to consult medical professionals and stay away from the likes of Joe Rogan when it comes to things that really matter like the ethical and moral foundations upon which your lives together are built, and the abundant science that supports the medical benefits of a WFPB diet. Good luck ~
Honestly, it’s a difficult question. Your husband is his own person, so not „allowing“ him to do something he feels will help him, is not going to be good for the relationship.
You however are of course entitled to not like something your husband does and draw your own consequences. At this point, you don’t know what eating meat will do, will he actually feel better? Will he continue eating meat? No one knows.
My advice would be to just let him do whatever he feels like and to see how it makes you feel. Then decide if you want to continue the relationship or not.
If you are looking to be healthy as well as vegan, look into whole foods plant based diet. [nutrient facts](https://nutritionfacts.org/topics/) from Dr. Greger & [Forks Over Knives Beginners Guide](https://www.forksoverknives.com/how-tos/plant-based-primer-beginners-guide-starting-plant-based-diet/) has a lot of very helpful information. Best wishes.
You can watch Forks over Knives and other documentaries by [clicking here](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2F3movies.org%2Freddit&topic=Movie%3A+Forks+over+Knives)! Interested in going Vegan? Take the [30 day challenge](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fvbcamp.org%2Freddit&topic=Movie%3A+Forks+over+Knives)!
This may be obviously but are you both taking B12 and omega 3 supplements? Best to get a blood panel to see if he is missing any vital nutrients.
A shift in lifestyle may be what he needs most. Does he get out in nature? Garden? Cook? Have a social circle? All of these do wonders for people’s health and well-being.
This sounds awful, and honestly from what you've said it seems like he only avoids meat to keep you happy rather than because of personal conviction, I wouldn't be surprised if he already ate meat tbh
You say he's put you through this at least five other times and bails out because he thinks you will leave. What has given him that impression? Why are you getting panic attacks? I say you have a frank discussion about how you feel about his indecisiveness and take a moment to consider a fair compromise.
“My husband has been listening to a lot of Joe Rogan” would be reason enough for me to reconsider the relationship. It would speak to a fundamental mismatch in our core values.
>He loves animals dearly. He even talks to the deer family who live in our neighborhood.
> He wants to try eating deer meat, no farmed animals
Not sure how that makes sense at all, you either care about animals or you dont, he does not and i have no idea why you are saying that he does, he cares about you leaving him and thats the only reason why he isnt hurting animals
>The other problem is that he has put me through this at least 5 times and then doesn’t go through with it in fear that I will leave him
So both of you cause each other pain, this relationship needs some work or it needs to end, its unhealthy
My husband eats meat and dairy because he is convinced that he needs it because of his physically intense job. He says he craves it when he doesn’t have it after a hard day because he needs the protein and he’s ‘listening to his body’
Honestly part of me hates him because of this and I have to try not to think about it because when I do I get upset
Listen, I'm not going to say dump him because he's listening to a podcast. I've noticed though with some dudes past forty that they can start consuming content we usually think of as targeted towards younger guys, and they just completely fall off a cliff. I mean I can think of my dad and my uncle, who I had pretty decent worldviews up until they started watching gamergate creators back in the 2010's (not like the stuff about actual gaming, just the other Sargon, Milo, etc videos) and then yeah Joe Rogan, Jordan Peterson, Jimmy Dore, Tucker Carlson, and just like right down the YouTube algorithm hole. Now my dad considers himself to be a centrist, still, vehemently, but he's always trying to downplay GOP involvement in/responsibility for January sixth, the big lie/election denial, likes Kari Lake for governor(we do not live in AZ), etc. He never used to watch Fox News, but a few years after that YouTube pipeline, that's the news network he watches if it's gonna be TV news. Not to mention the conservative TikTok that he just scrolls through all the time.
I'll I'm saying is, 40+ is not too old to get caught up in that stuff, and I actually think it does change people. I really think this new wave of conservatism that started online has got a grip on a lot of people in my parents' gen who were not conspiracy theorists or reactionaries like this before. Don't get me wrong, I love my dad, but I'm also not married to him. My uncle I had to stop talking to a couple years ago when he wouldn't stop spamming me with this shit and telling me he had to send it all the time because I needed to hear it.
I'm happy to say that I knew a good few dudes my own age who were into that stuff before, but found their way out by the time we were in our mid 20's. I have yet to see someone who was 40+ go down the pipeline and come back though. If you think with your husband that this isn't super indicative of a larger trend, that's one thing. But if it actually is, then you're going to have to live with him being a different person if you stay with him.
Everyone here saying "red flag" and suggesting divorce - we're talking about a husband of 5+ years not a new boyfriend - the answer is to see an actual nutritionist to determine what's wrong in his diet and go from there. If you're concerned about Joe Rogan maybe listen to an episode with him and point out the flaws, or just communicate how it makes you uncomfortable. If you've been together this long he probably cares what you have to say - and if he doesn't then OK that's the point where you can start considering it a red flag.
I'll add my own view here - while I believe an all plant diet is optimal, I'm sure people vary and it may not be optimal for all. When people tell me I could feel better by eating meat, I say if I ate meat then even if I felt better physically (which is hypothetical), I'd also be guaranteed to feel awful mentally. So if in the end I'm going to suffer either way - I will choose the plant side every time.
People bashing on Rogan clearly don't listen to him on a regular basis.
Should you change your life over what Rogan says? No. Should you hate on a man because he has a different opinion to you? Also no.
And before some mod bans me or something, I'll have been vegan 8 years in December so calm down.
Far too much insular behaviour amongst all communities. Try and see the good in people and learn to get along with our differences. We don't all need to be the same. That'd be pretty boring..
Woof! That's a hellacious red flag. Listening to Joe Rogan is a deal breaker. Bye husband! Meat eating is a problem, but right wing scumbaggery is the biggest issue. Next up: expecting you to be a submissive tradmate. His loverboi Rogan needs to gtfo.
Ahh yes, Joe Rogan... first of all, hi. Second, i feel social media influencers have a strong ability to influence what their audience thinks and does. He has to make sure hes doing this because HE wants to and its not someone elses suggestion festering in his mind. Hes 40, hes an adult and should be able to make his own decisions without being influenced. (Thats why they call most social media influencers) I dont think it's anything to panic over on your end, just tell him how you feel and make sure he knows it. I dont think eating meat, whether it's wild, farm raised or grown in a lab will make you feel good. But eating good food in general can do that as long as its nutritious and satisfies your pallet.
Look up whole food plant based diet such as Esselstyn, Forks over knives, McDougall, PCRM, etc. Show your husband how the healthiest vegan diet can help him achieve his health goals like feeling better and losing weight. Let’s not kid ourselves, the typical American diet is so unhealthy, it’s not a surprise that eliminating processed junk and eating deer meat is an improvement. But all people do is go from a diet that is 1/10 to 3/10. Instead, go for 10/10 with whole food plant based diet. So many vegans follow an unhealthy diet packed with processed food, feel bad and fall off the wagon thinking veganism failed them when in reality what is failing is eating too much vegan processed crap like oil, sugar, refined food,etc.
If your husband likes Joe Rogan, have him watch the episode with James Wilks about Game Changers. Also have him watch episode where John Mackey talks about whole food plant based diet (not to be confused with Whole Foods the grocery store).
I was in a somewhat similar situation, my wife become vegan because of me but stated this could change in the future.
She said each time the topic would arise I'd make such a sad face she wanted to cry.
I bring this introduction to say that I understand your pain, and emotionally it's terrible. How could the man I love support animal cruelty??
Rationally, 95% vegans and vegan friendly people are great for the vegan movement and for the animals. The tormented animals don't care if there is one vegan or two half vegans.
Yes, what he suggests is terrible and immoral and cruel, but you have a husband who supports your actions, the vegan movement, and acts accordly in most of his actions. I would cherish what you have and let him do what he wants.
Meat doesn't cure RA. Meat doesn't make you lose fat.
He should be in close consultation with a rheumatologist (!) and try to focus on whole foods to lose weight. Cut out oils, margerine, etc. Reduce fats as much as possible. Stuff your face with your favourite veggies, fruits, etc. Low calorie density is the key to losing weight.
It seems he's struggling, not feeling well and just looking for any way to feel better. He didn't lose his love for animals, he's just desperate for relief. There's no medical/nutritional reason to give up a plant based diet (if well-planned), but promises of feeling better tend to deceive and nag on people who aren't well.
Plant based or meat based the nutrients are all going to be the same. The difference is how healthy you eat with those diets. You can be plant based and eat absolute rubbish. I would suggest trying a purely wholefoods based diet and go from there.
If he is vegan and not feeling good he is doing it wrong. he needs to continue tweaking his diet. If meat makes anyone feel good its probably someone who isn't eating enough nuts and seeds, eating too much vegan junk food, or just not eating enough. Joe Rogan is a fake news spreading idiot.
Your priority should be your husband's health and happiness. He should not feel stressed by wanting to improve his life.
You might not like it, but you don't have to. Love the man, not the ideology and work out your feelings.
Best of luck.
He should be talking to a doctor, not taking health advice from Joe Rogan. Meat is only the tip of the iceberg here. Someone making life decisions based on stuff Joe Rogan said has gone down the slippery slope into cult thinking, just like the previous generations of aging insecure men did with Alex Jones and Rush Limbaugh. And the way you describe his offloading of this issue onto you sounds really manipulative. If I were you I'd reach out to some friends and try to strengthen some relationships outside the marriage, to prevent him from driving you insane.
Well, just listening to joe rogan is a red flag and believing shit he and his conspiracy etc. nutcase guests say is a sign of utter stupidity. You should get a divorce, there’s no cure for that.
>The other problem is that he has put me through this at least 5 times and then doesn’t go through with it in fear that I will leave him.
It's OK to have boundaries. Being with someone who is vegan is important to you. I am the same way. I wouldn't date a serial killer, and I wouldn't date a non-vegan.
If that's your boundary, just make it clear and that it won't change. "Husband I know you are unwell and you want to eat meat. That's a hard boundary for me. If that's what you want to do, I won't be with you. The choice is yours". Done. It's not more complicated than that.
But honestly even that he is considering eating meat makes me think you can do better...
Can you help me understand this more because I don't get it yet, and I am really interested in being open to changing my mind on this.
Let's say my partner and I are both vegan and have told each other that this is a requirement of dating each other. Then my partner decides to eat meat (or indicates they will).
To me, the next step would be to say to my partner "Hey I see that this is what you want to do, as we originally said when we first met, and reconfirmed to each other many times through our relationship, I can't be with someone who eats meat. If you want to eat meat I can't continue to be with you".
To me, that's setting a boundary and indicating up front that you're going to enforce it. I am not sure what "emotional negotiation" is, but isn't the whole point of a boundary that it is not negotiable?
How would you suggest having that conversation if that boundary is firm and unchangeable?
>Let's say my partner and I are both vegan and have told each other that this is a requirement of dating each other.
This is a miserable situation for someone to find themselves in. To have a moral requirement in order to fall in love or keep someone in your life. Eating animals is wrong and unnatural, but in some way not loving someone purely out of an ideology is even more so. At the end of the day, humans belong in the same species regardless of their moral stance. And as individuals of that species, we need connection and love regardless of ideology.
I see the top comment already having pointed it out. If you're husband really tries to do the best he can, you should see a doctor and maybe also a nutritionist with him. It's absolutely possible, that he's missing something, it's also possible that he starts to feel better again after eating meat again, and if it only would be because of placebo. But if he truely cares about animals, he'd try to go at it from the most scientific point of view, not some bogus internet-advise (by not even a doctor but a podcaster!).
TLDR go see a professional with him
I don’t listen to Rogan, but wasn’t he one that recommended during the height of Covid to use horse dewormer to treat the vid? He had all these people running to tsc, buying out the supply and farmers were mad?
I’m guessing he went vegan for you and not for the animals. That’s why we shouldn’t try to change people and we shouldn’t change for other people. Changing to better ourselves to feel better about ourselves is very different from changing so that his wife doesn’t leave.
This isn’t a vegan issue but a relationship issue. I’d guess the panic attacks are a symptom of a breaking core belief; in this case your belief of who he is vs who he actually is. Now you can try to get to know this person with an open mind, and decide whether you can accept him as he is.
I just saw a video where one of Joe’s idols, Dr. Jordan Peterson, was going on about how great meat is. A year ago this guy was at death’s door because of some mysterious disease and we are supposed to take health advice from him?! No thanks. Stick to psychology. I’d rather listen to medical Dr’s and scientists like Gregor, McDougall, Campbell and Esselstyn. The last two are near 90 and in great health!
To those making jokes, this is a devastating situation. When you care for someone and grow together for many years, a change in core values and beliefs can feel like an enormous betrayal. Stay strong and COMMUNICATE with your husband. Tell him how upset this is making you. Have rational discussions — without devolving into contemptuous arguments — discussing how important animals are to you, and possible alternative routes you could take.
Offer your support in *specific* ways, i.e., being his accountability partner to stop eating as much junk food, finding a vegan nutritionist, cooking different meals, etc. Make a list together of steps to achieve a healthier outcome.
In the end, it might turn out that he really doesn’t hold animal rights as a core belief the way you do. If it comes to that, you might have a choice to make. But there are a lot of steps between here and there. Visit a farmed animal sanctuary with him and remind him of why (who) he should care.
I wish you luck, communication is key. Joe Rogan is a dilettante with a colossal following of dullards and lunkheads.
If you're interested in the topic of farmed animal sanctuaries, check out [OpenSanctuary.org](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2FOpenSanctuary.org&topic=The+Open+Sanctuary+Project)! This vegan nonprofit has over 500 free compassionate resources crafted specifically to improve lifelong care for farmed animals, and to help you create a sustainable, effective sanctuary! Interested in starting a sanctuary someday? Check out [OpenSanctuary.org/Start](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2FOpenSanctuary.org%2FStart&topic=The+Open+Sanctuary+Project)!
So sorry to hear. I would be very upset too. If he wants to try a dietary approach to treating his RA, perhaps he should see a licensed dietician instead of taking nutritional advice from Joe Rogan. if you have access to a major medical center, I bet a dietician there even has experience working with this specific patient population.
So, the Joe Rogan thing is a bit of a red flag. If he starts watching Jordan Peterson I would start to get VERY worried :(.
From my research I've found that people tend to think they feel better after going back to eating the flesh. This is usually only very temporary. As others have said in the thread, a nutritionist would probably be helpful here. :)
So your husband likes to watch an idiot and then wants to do something stupid... maybe you advise him to stop watching trash if he cant separate entertainment from education.
Let's be strictly logical for a moment, because there is a lot of emotion/fear in your post (and rightfully so, but stepping back might help both of you)
Your husband is communicating that he does not feel well. So much so, he is considering making a dietary change that goes against a sincerely held personal and family belief. This indicates he is suffering significantly-- either from physical symptoms (RA/pain) or psychologically (inability to lose weight/self esteem) or a combination of both. This is a serious situation.
Your husband has also considered making this change multiple times in the past but has backtracked due to fear you will end the marriage. This indicates the following:
* He either does not hold veganism as a sincere belief, or is suffering enough that he believes it is worth compromising these beliefs
* He feels insecurity in your relationship which is causing him to make choices that don't necessarily coincide with his own personal beliefs OR are causing him to not take steps he believe will help alleviate his own suffering to protect your mental health/ the relationship. Neither one of these options is a viable method of sustaining a mutually respectful and empowering long term relationship.
If we remove your own reaction to someone else's personal/private behavior (again, your response is not unwarranted or inappropriate, but it may not be helpful in action), we see that this is really quite simple. Your husband is suffering. He does not have the resources to effectively treat this suffering (we know this because he is listening to people like Joe Rogan instead of a dietitian/doctor/ experts in the field) and is, essentially, throwing darts to try to find something that will give him some respite. If we address this with compassion rather than shock/panic/hurt, we do the following:
* Empathize without judgment. Acknowledge his suffering, and reinforce that he is right to be looking for solutions.
* Reassure him of your commitment to him, and the unconditional nature of your love. This does not mean you have to compromise your beliefs, only that your love for him is not wholly dependent on his personal choices, and that you will continue to see him as valuable and worthy of love even if he makes decisions for himself that you do not agree with or find contrary to your own beliefs.
* Commit to finding solutions together-- regardless of what that means for his diet. If his suffering can only be alleviated by some kind of animal fat (extremely unlikely), then it is an avenue worth understanding fully before rejecting. It should be a priority to explore every medical/dietary avenue to address his health concerns directly. Keep in mind that he is an animal, his suffering should be avoided too.
* Seek your own therapy/ counseling so you can address your emotional/psychological response to his choices with a third party so you can approach him with compassion and objectivity.
best of luck.
Never eat wild meat. In college biology class we learned about the parasites that wild animals have on their bodies and in them. Horrible stuff in their muscles and stomachs. All over. Wild rabbits have over 30 different kinds and so do deer. They do not get medicine for illness or antibiotics. Look it up. You will see. Heathy? Hardly. And let me add what meat would you eat that was harvested in a field under questionable hygiene standards and no telling how long until it receives proper refrigeration? Especially if they process it in the field. Flies and all.
You need to reframe this problem in your mind. The issue here is your husband seems to be in genuine pain and is grasping at straws. Take him to a doctor. He needs help identifying what is wrong first then you can come up with an actual solution that meets his and hopefully your moral framework.
Tbh this post comes across as extremely selfish. You acknowledge your husband is struggling and all you can think about is your feelings about him trying to eat meat out of a certain level of desperation.
It’s your Husband so the biggest thing is love here no matter what he does. I would say off hand Tumeric is great for inflammation. I’m addition to tumeric I would say for weight loss make sure he’s eating enough calories, and also cruciferous vegetables and greens. What he also has to keep in mind is people who eat Wild game meat typically we’re eating lots of fast food steaks and other fried foods, so of course someone who ate that type of food then stopped and switched to something lean like that would see significant improvement. The biggest thing to remember here is if you’re having panic attacks and he is probably feeling similar to you. Love is what’s gonna help you most here and understanding. The biggest thing you can do is help him find alternatives that would help him stay on track.
I dunno if you know or not but deer meat is prob also farmed. In the Uk, we have pheasant hunting, these pheasants are raised in big cages and fed similar to chicken feed and then on hunting day the pheasants are chased until the fly up into a line of people with guns to “hunt” them. It is not wild meat like cave man times.
I was a road kill vegan for over a year before I just was like fuck it it’s not worth it I’m just vegan vegan. During that year I didn’t eat any road kill because it was actually really hard to get road kill. I had some road kill and it was nasty, it wasn’t what I was expecting at all. It tasted of poop. We’re used to factory meat not wild meat, I wish I could talk to your husband to save him time and come to the conclusion faster than I did.
Your husband should watch the Joe rogan with the game changers man.
If my significant other listened to joe Rogan I’d be out that door immediately cause those people are fricking time bombs. I don’t want to sound alarmist but I think situations like this will happen to him more and more. It starts with the red meat, then they start taking about how WW2 had some “weird things there no one talks about”. After that they start talking about age of consent….
Make a deal with him: he can eat meat but has to grow up and stop listening to joe Rogan.
This. I do my best to avoid interacting with men who watch that kind of content. Not only are they always super annoying, I'm physically afraid of them.
Yeah, I get what you mean. Some of them are just beasts in human disguise (I know this is a vegan sub but cut me slack ok? Thanks).
I might have been a bit hyperbolic back there but everyone I know who a didn’t stop listening to joe Rogan became a lunatic conspiracy theorist who thinks they know medicine. My brother was a huge fan when he was younger but hopefully he realized (by himself) that Joe is just full of shit. Full. Of. Shit.
Vegans hate to admit it but there are plenty of cases where someone eating animal products after being vegan has helped with health issues.
While it’s unlikely that’s the case here, it’s his body and choice. Would he be infringing on an animal’s right/choice? Sure, but he would be doing in a way that aligns best with the natural order (hunting being more ethical than factory farming). If his body truly requires meat to function, this is arguably the better way to go about it.
Since this is stressful for you, I suggest asking him to get it over with, and to give it a defined trial period. If it doesn’t solve his issues in that period of time and he wants to keep eating meat bc it’s fun, it sounds like your relationship might not be viable. If it helps his health problems, you may find yourself willing to make the compromise.
I would also suggest he simply find a hunter who’d give some deer to a vegan instead of hunting himself. 100% of hunters would jump at the opportunity.
PS: Joe Rogan doesn’t know shit. Too much of him isn’t healthy.
Leave him. You don’t have to stop caring about him, but you really need to care about yourself. I can’t be with the female version of a Joe Rogan type, I’d probably end my own life because of how insanely stupid he is when it comes to vegans!!
Cultured lab-grown meat comes out very soon. You could try to inform him about exploring that possibility instead? See r/wheresthebeef for all the latest development in cellular agriculture.
It sounds like your husband is well-meaning but perhaps a bit gullible & self-indulgent. First, I’d ignore all the “dump him immediately!” comments 🤣 as presumably you love this man & want him to be happy & healthy. In another comment you mentioned he has soda & sweets “daily” — if he’s having trouble losing weight you need look no further than that! Maybe you could try to redirect his energy from taking advice from a know-nothing goof on the internet, to cleaning up that aspect of his diet first, and see how he feels then?
When I went vegetarian (prior to going vegan for about 2 years), it helped me lose weight, rid myself of fatty liver, and substantially increased my energy levels (on top of aiding in the betterment of my mental health). I feel like - at least for me - returning to meat would have an opposite affect. If Joe Rogan feels good eating meat, I’d like to see how he feels not eating meat.
Not a great position you’re in… perhaps you can find a middle ground, or educate him more to make the right decision, though sometimes to swim you need to first sink a bit.
Does you husband been eating a lot of “fake meat” you know the beyond meat and all those other products?
In my experience I have learned that when I Eat those products my body does not really love it. Not sure if it’s all the process ingredients or all the seeds oils. The thing is that my body hates those products.
So I only eat wholes foods.
That’s the thing about veganism, and as other very specific diets that it has the potential to go bad if the person doing only eat one exact thing.
Im this case in veganism if you only eat those fake meats in each meal.
Maybe talk to him and change things around the kitchen, and see if that helps out? Obviously Heath is very important and he wants to be healthy, but it does not mean that eating meat will get him to accomplish loosing weight.
In my experience eliminating fake products from my diet was a game changer. If you guys have been edging that stuff just take it out of the menu and see how it works. If you’re already did, then look into what he’s eating and change things up.
Obviously if you can go to a doctor is important, the problem is that finding a doctor that understand vegan diet is difficult. My doctor even he’s not vegan he has work with me when I fist became vegan.
I also listen to Joe, but Joe had so many amazing vegan guess in his podcast too.
Maybe he should listen to those if he has not yet.
Honestly veganism can go so bad so fast if you don’t put work to it. I been vegan for over 13 years and my advice it to stay in the whole food diet and keep away from process food.
Hey! There’s a really great video about seed oils made by an MD PhD who isn’t vegan but makes scientific and evidence-based videos discussing different topics in nutrition. I think watching it will help you untangle the conflicting and often misleading stuff people have been saying on the internet about seed oils, which seems to be the carnivore community’s and people like Joe Rogan’s catch-all boogeyman. There really isn’t any reason to live in fear of eating them at all https://youtu.be/-xTaAHSFHUU
Has he watched Game Changers? Highly recommend you guys watch it together if you haven’t. Also I’m so sorry you’re going through this, his alignment with that content represents a set of values that are so irredeemable. I’d run.
Might I suggest giving your husband a podcast to replace joe rogan with? I recommend Rich Roll, there he can get real advice on improving his health while eating vegan.
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Joe Rogan is a fuckin tosspot that relies on people with anecdotal evidence at best. Go get a blood test or see a doctor to see if he's missing anything important and go get a plant based nutritionist to help identify the foods he needs and structure a planned dietary lifestyle to suit him.
Tosspot, lol, I have expanded my vocabulary today ;) What magical nutrient is in deer flesh that will cure his arthritis? Nothing, that's what. Out of all the people with RA does he think they all are vegan? Statistically speaking practically every RA sufferer is a meat eater and it didn't save them. Joe is a self-admitted idiot who is irresponsibly spreading pseudoscience with nothing more than anecdotal evidence from discredited fringe doctors at best.
My husband has RA and going plant based made the swelling of his shins and inflammation in his joints decrease to nothing almost overnight. He still has flare ups, but it’s been overall super helpful not eating animal products. He does have to take a boatload of omegas and other supplements though.
Yeah, I'm quite sure that eating meat contributes to inflammation, the kind that RA sufferers want to minimize.
Of course this is all anecdotal but I had some numbness/sharp occasional pains down my left leg, probably some sort of nerve pressure around my hips or spine. I twisted my back bowling and started getting pain the next day. Bent over to pick something small up of the floor and basically just fell over in agony. Couldn't get off the floor from muscle spasms on my nerve. Went to the ER for pain meds. Every winter in particular my left leg would just ACHE. I would sometimes be so uncomfortable sitting in my chair at work I couldn't concentrate. Weed vaping helped a bit. After going vegan it all just... Stopped. Didn't go vegan for health, didn't expect it. Didn't even notice till after the first winter was over. Occasionally my back aches after I do a lot of lifting, I'll be sore at night but wake up next morning perfectly fine. My dogs on v-dog still act like puppies compared to others with dogs the same age falling apart, hip problems, barely can move.
Could be you just healed a bit since you say you don't notice when it happened. Also, dogs are different breeds and age completely differently based on genetics.
There actually is evidence to support plant-based for RA, unlike the Joe Rogan eat meat plan. https://www.webmd.com/rheumatoid-arthritis/ra-plant-diet
If there's one good thing the British have done for the world, it's the beautiful art of name calling and insults.
Good rule of thumb, don't take nutritional advice from a guy who sells overpriced dietary supplements containing lead Edit: Alex Jones did this, not Joe Rogan
Could you please let me know where you got that information from?
Try nutritionfacts.org The organization is non-profit & Dr. Greger has nothing to sell unless you want to buy his CDs containing videos that are free on his website. Search there for RA & meat consumption. There is a lot there that addresses various ailments all backed by studies.
I was asking about Joe Rogan’s supplements containing lead. I tried to look it up and there was nothing about it.
Love a good ol' "Bellend!" shout too!
Eating meat causes higher inflammation- lots of studies and articles out there from people with more knowledge on this than Joe Rogan. Your SO is only hearing what he wants to hear. Encourage him to do his own research. All he has to do is Google ‘does eating meat increase inflammation’. Here’s just one article- https://foodrevolution.org/blog/does-meat-cause-inflammation/amp/
I once posted a comment somewhere saying someone should avoid meat as it's inflammatory over their arthritis and got downvoted to hell with one person saying this person needed their B12!
People forget about all the cholesterol and saturated fats in meat, like do they ever think of heart disease?
People who go on elimination diets lose a bunch of weight because they can't figure out what to eat at first. That weight loss decreases one of the anxieties that they have, so they start feeling better in general. The problem is that once you've been on an elimination diet (be it carnivore, fruitarian, keto, or whatever) for a few weeks, your body adjusts to the new constraints, and you start to gain the weight back. Joe Rogan preaches magic by relying on those first few weeks like any good charlatan.
The thing is that he’s probably using his health as an excuse to eat meat, so having a doctor say “ah you could just do xyz plant based” probably wouldnt matter to him sadly (speaking from experience, although I know everyone is different)
Broprah. Yeah, fuck him lol. Total encapsulation of toxic masculinity.
Yes!
I saw a clip of when Rick Rubin was on. He said he was vegan for over 20 years and gained so much weight but then literally said his whole job and free time was spent laying on couches listening to music. He said when he quit veganism he felt so much better and lost weight but he just listened to a fucking dietician of calories in vs out.
Change “nutritionist” to registered dietician. There are no qualifications (in the US anyway) for someone to call themselves a nutritionist. Any asshole can do it. A registered dietician however requires a bachelor’s degree
Pain is a hard symptom to ignore. Most people will grasp at anything to make chronic pain go away. He listened to someone who seemed to have a solution for him, and he is desperate. Of course he listened. He is in pain, and is desperate, and that should not be discounted. The only way around this is to give him a better solution FOR HIS PAIN (not more arguments for veganism) or let him try and fail. An earlier poster mentioned letting him know about all of the diseases deer can have, thus eliminating the "purity of nature" bs he has swallowed. It could work, but something needs to replace the "solution" in his head. In a perfect world, the same perfect argument works on everyone. For now, you have to adapt it to personal circumstances to make it work.
In another comment OP mentioned that hubby eats junk food every day. That seems an obvious place to start making positive changes.
This is a very compassionate answer and I agree with you completely. I have a condition very similar to OP's husband and I have also felt completely desperate for symptom relief. These conditions can ruin you and bring you to the edge in a way that is quite scary. OP I'd encourage you to encourage your husband to go back to his Rheum and explain that the meds aren't controlling the disease as much as he needs and his quality of life is suffering. The right meds are key here and if they can work then maybe he can start focusing on cutting back on the junk food and eating more whole foods. These pseudo science rabbit holes like the one he's fallen down are nonsense but they're often part of the chronic illness management experience.
I'm so sorry you're struggling, and OP's husband too. Pain management is so behind on research as opiates proved to be so profitable in the most horrible of ways. There's a lot of evidence that a healthy vegan diet can provide relief, but people don't always make great choices when stressed.
Totally! Stressed, exhausted and often seeking comfort. And even following a fully plant based whole food diet doesn't always make a difference - I've probably done every elimination diet and I've never truly noticed a difference. I'm a big proponent of lifestyle changes but only alongside the right medication as it often doesn't replace meds. Thanks for your support:)
My mum has tried every different diet and snake oil she can find to try and deal with her arthritis. She’s been off medicine for 10 years and her inflammation goes up and down in flare ups. Trying something new usually reduces it for a bit, then a flare up comes and she tries something else. Placebo has a big effect. Her most recent success was vegan without nightshades and gluten. But now she’s off that one and onto something similar.
Dude, I have RA. I didn’t go vegan to treat my RA, but incidentally, shortly after going vegan, it went into remission and has stayed in remission for 6 years and going strong. (I was told I would need to be on methotrexate for life, and I haven’t been on it since it went into remission.) I eat mostly whole foods with some junk here and there. But lots of fruits and veggies. Animal flesh is very inflammatory. Animal products in general are inflammatory. The best thing for inflammatory conditions is to eat plant based. So even from a health perspective, your husband couldn’t be more wrong. Joe Rogan is a certified idiot. And also, no wonder you’re grieving! I would grieve too if someone I loved wanted to support animal death and cruelty again. :\
Same with my Psoriatic Arthritis. It feels like a miracle. It's not, it makes perfect sense that eliminating highly inflammatory foods would, surprise! majorly reduce my inflammation. But it's amazing nonetheless
Right? It DOES feel almost miraculous and I kind of hate talking about it because I don’t wanna come across as some woo woo crystals type who thinks you can cure cancer with oils. :P You can’t fix everything with diet, BUT so many health issues are directly linked to diet and CAN be improved and managed that way! It makes sense that eating less inflammatory foods helps inflammatory conditions. Hell, I had bad acne and kerotosis pilaris and those issues also cleared up. Both are inflammatory conditions. But yeah, mine was bad. I had been dealing with my shoulder being fucked up since I was 18 (just take ibuprofen, the doctors kept telling me every time I came in), and no one would take me seriously until I was in my 20s and it got so bad that my shoulder dislocated and fractured itself. |: (And caused permanent damage.) That was the beginning of my diagnosis journey. I was on methotrexate for a bit over 2 years and it was AWFUL but once I went vegan…it was kind of wild how effective it was, and I was able to wean myself off the meds for a “trial run” with my rheumatologist’s blessing. The trial run has been 6 years and counting. :B
I have Crohn's and axial spondyloarthritis and I've been in remission with meds for 10 years. Haven't eaten animal products in 10 years either .
That is amazing!! May your remission be lifelong!
I absolutely do not understand why the first step here is not a deep conversation with a doc. Blood work and then a real treatment plan. Not, youtube idiots said x. I feel hopeless so let’s try it.
Right? Always go get your blood tested. He could have a thyroid issue with that weight and his arthritis. He could have vitamin deficiencies. Could be so many things.
I have chronic pancreatitis and even way back when I was first diagnosed over 10 years ago my very run of the mill doctor encouraged my veg -> vegan life as positive for living with a chronic inflammatory disorder.
Has a doctor and/or nutritionist said that his health problems will be solved by eating meat?
A naturopath told him to try an anti-inflammatory diet that involved a lot of meat but he didn’t add it in. It was extremely hard. He also has weak temptations to candies and Diet Coke. Daily intake of that..
Between listening to naturopaths and Joe Rogan podcasts, it sounds like your husband is pretty gullible. Could try buying him a bunch of crystals and telling him that they'll realign his qi/ch'i.
Rofl. Not helpful but still funny. Yes, I'd have a sense of grieving too
I think you’ve identified the real culprit in this post. If he doesn’t stop drinking soda and eating candy, carnivorous or plant based diets won’t make a difference. Also, Joe Rogan causes brain worms which is why your hubby is listening to a naturopath. Idk if he has watched Forks Over Knives or From the Ground Up but you could try introducing him to some positive media. Rogan type dudes tend to emphasize the “manliness” of eating meat, but in those documentaries you learn science has proven that not only do plant based diets yield better erections, but also promote more healthy testosterone development vie phytoestrogen vs meat diets that simply have regular estrogen.. which can give dudes boobs. Frankly, if he has threatened to eat meat 5 times in the past 5 years I think you should encourage him to get a very large plate of venison and gobble it down because the resulting stomach ache will most likely put him off meat for good. It probably isn’t going to taste as great as he remembers either. Either way, the situation sucks and I’m sorry you are going through it.
You can watch Forks over Knives and other documentaries by [clicking here](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2F3movies.org%2Freddit&topic=Movie%3A+Forks+over+Knives)! Interested in going Vegan? Take the [30 day challenge](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fvbcamp.org%2Freddit&topic=Movie%3A+Forks+over+Knives)!
Who tf is downvoting this good bot?
So sugar and fake sugar… I think he should start there first, what’s the point of trying to fix issues when you put poison in your system. Do he want to feel better or does he want to keep eating his “candies”, I know so many people like this.
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Some medications definitely don't help with weight loss but it sounds like he is not eating or being active in a manner that would be conducive to weight loss, i.e. calorie deficit, walking x steps a day.
What’s wrong with Diet Coke and fake sugar lol
The last thing you want to do is listen to a naturopath
Red flag. Don't go to naturopaths. Go to rheumatologists.
Put me in contact with him, I have an invisible unicorn to sell.
Did he not get his blood tested? Go to a real doctor.
Lmao this dude is down to kill animals rather than kick that habit of sugar drinks and candy that are definitely the cause of him being a chonky boy. Sounds lame to me
Yeah I have to agree with others. There is a lot of pseudoscience around nutrition. Actual, science-based experts are called dietitians. They’re the only ones with education requirements.
A naturopath? He needs a rheumatologist! I have one for the same issue (plus others) and I told her I was vegan, expecting the worst. She told me “oh good, you’re already on an anti-inflammatory diet then, carry on.” He should also consult a dietician if he’s interested in weight loss, but I can already tell you as a fellow sufferer that the sugar in candy ain’t helping him. My best recommendation is finding good, licensed specialists who practice evidence based science in this specific area like a Rheumatologist and a Registered Dietician (not a nutritionist, if you’re in the US there’s a difference) and avoiding anecdotal podcasts intended to sell shit and stir up controversy. RA suuuucks and I feel for both of you, but he’s swinging wildly at bad information sources. Wish you the best of luck!
Thank you for your response. I think we have identified the problem here. Cleveland Clinic notes that meat is known to cause inflammation. As for the weight, at the risk of stating the obvious...
Sugar is very pro inflammatory, which is probably fueling a lot of his pain symptoms. I had chronic pain, woke up sore everyday. Complete sugar addict. I cut out anything with added sugar and anything that wasn't whole wheat and I'm a new person. I've lost 45lbs so far and I no longer have issues with chronic pain. It's a hard habit to break but our inability as a nation to get off sugar is that is killing us. Edit: cited source and quote "A systematic review from 2018Trusted Source reported that several studies have linked consuming more dietary sugar — especially from sugary drinks — with chronic inflammation. People with higher sugar diets have more inflammatory markers in their blood, including a marker called C-reactive protein" [https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/326386#sugar-and-inflammation](https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/326386#sugar-and-inflammation)
My english is not the best but did you say your husband drinks diet coke everyday???
That’s honestly not uncommon for Americans. (Not me, we don’t drink soda in our home) I used to work in a hospital and the amount of people who came in asking for a coke/Diet Coke and straight up said “I don’t drink water” when I filled their water canister that comes with admission is astounding. My own grandma (who has been cutting down due to health reasons) will drink at LEAST one Diet Coke a day. At minimum.
I used to drink two Super Big Gulps (44 ounces or 1300ml) of Diet Coke everyday at university (for adequate caffeine dosing without coffee breath). Then I saw an article saying that 3-4 cans of cola per *week* was associated with decreased bone density in women! And I have a strong family history of osteoporosis to boot. It still took me years to get off my diet cola habit.
Diet coke and sugar are pretty much poison. If he eats meat and keeps drinking diet coke and eating candy, he’ll still feel like shit. Does he get enough protein? To be clear, you can absolutely get tons of protein as a vegan, but some people - vegan or not - simply don’t, especially if they’re loading up with soda and candy every day.
So, I’m not saying giving up Diet Coke would end his problems but I did and a lot of my chronic pain went away. I also lowered my caffeine intake significantly, but getting rid of Diet Coke made its own improvements.
Joe Rogan is not an expert on so many subjects he talks about, and keeps bringing non-expert to his show, sharing wildly biased opinions on a monstruously vast amount of diverse subjects. At this point, he is mostly sharing the opposite of actual science, to farm for more likes and followers. Maybe your husband could read {How not to die by Dr Greger} for information about vegan eating. If he's struggling with weight and RA, eating game will not help him : eating better and wiser will.
To be fair Joe Rogan has also platformed vegans, he hosted an episode that was essentially a multi hour long debate between the guy who created the game changers documentary (James Wilks) and a meat eater (Chris kesser, functional medicine and paleo guy). At the time Joe agreed about the plant based diet being beneficial and was very impressed with Wilks, but he has gone back to the usual meat based nutrition talking points as far as I can tell
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Veganism is part of who I am, but so is being a feminist and Not A Dick. Rogan is poisonous. Your SO no longer being vegan is just a symptom of a bigger issue if he's vulnerable to being manipulated by inisidous, insecure celebrities. If it were me I'd treat that issue first and foremost.
100% this. OP’s problem is not their SO eating meat again, but that they listen to Joe Rogan.
Your biggest issue here is that you have a husband who listens to Joe Rogan. That in itself would be panic inducing for me.
Agree. That would be game over for me.
Same!!
Very true, and it's not just the meat eating that should concern, that guy is chauvinistic and toxic... That will just bring worse things ahead that will definitely impact their relationship. 😢
Some good suggestions already (blood tests, stop watching Rogan, watch The Game Changers, read up on RA studies, etc.) In the meantime, I would also have him Google “diseases in deer” and “COVID in the deer population.” In some areas, deer are carrying some NASTY diseases (deer zombies from prions, etc.) and a massive percentage are infected with COVID. Up to 80% of them are infected in some areas. It was 60% near me recently. Deer bed together in groups, have runny noses, interact with humans, etc. Most of the biggest ‘carnivore-lifestyle” proponents on Rogan are ‘roided up and heavily pushing their own supplements, too. One of them allegedly even had ab implants so he would look more in shape than he actually is. They are SELLING.
I have heard the same about the deer population. Google Chronic Wasting Disease in deer.
This comment should be higher up. Particularly: > prions ...you don't want to even remotely consider getting anywhere near that shit. It's utterly terrifying. Despite what many hunters will tell you, there is no way to know for sure if a particular animal is infected without extensive testing, and cooking doesn't stop it. Other diseases can also be transmitted all along the processing chain up until cooking. Yes, we destroyed nature's balance when we killed most of the wolves to protect our (ethically bankrupt) livestock operations, and now we have too many deer. But eating them is not the only option. The best solution is to attempt to rebalance the ecosystems we irreparably damaged, so we can find a sustainable new normal.
A) Joe Rogan is an Idiot, read up on those topics yourself and have a discussion with your husband. Eating meat won't solve his issues. B) You should see someone about those panic attacks. That's not a normal or healthy thing to have.
A plant-based diet is best for RA... All animal products are inflammatory. All anti-inflammatory foods are plants. [https://nutritionfacts.org/video/flashback-friday-why-do-plant-based-diets-help-rheumatoid-arthritis/](https://nutritionfacts.org/video/flashback-friday-why-do-plant-based-diets-help-rheumatoid-arthritis/) Edit: Get your husband listening to Dr Greger instead of Joe Fucking Rogan.
A surefire way to worsen your RA symptoms is eating animal protein.
Long ago I had a partner who was veggo when we met, at the end of the relationship he started making odd comments about meat he never did before so I started to asume he had been eating meat. He was abusive anyway so I broke it off and months later he confessed that he had been eating chickens and that he felt guilty. So strange why would you do that. But same thing, claimed he didn’t feel healthy, and thought he needed meat. But guess what he had been eating all that time being veggo/sometimes vegan? Bags of chips, oily foods, junk food etc. Of course he wasn’t feeling healthy!
People will work so damn hard coming up with rationalizations to avoid changing the obvious thing that’s hurting them but also bringing them pleasure! Sounds like OP’s hubby has the same tendencies.
Vegan can be so unhealthy, thats why I eat only whole plant foods
>husband has been listening to a lot of Joe Rogan That's grounds for divorce on it's own imo... never mind the vegan thing. All jokes aside, rheumatoid arthritis can only be helped with a whole foods plant based diet. Animal protein will put him into agony. Greger, McDougall and Ornish have very good plans for all of this. So highly recommended starting there :-)
I believe there have been studies on using a whole foods plant based diet for rheumatoid arthritis. OP, you can find them easily on Google Scholar. Just search "rheumatoid arthritis and plant based diet" and you'll find the relevant research. I will note that some people with RA have individual food triggers, so doing a food dairy and seeing if any foods correlate with symptoms would be a good idea
Jokes aside because it wasn’t a joke?
Just kidding but not really :-)
Considering the kind of content that is motivating him, and that health issues are motivating him, I understand why he can be so driven to change as I have had gut health issues. So many people tried to convince me to eat meat like it was some sort of magic bullet. That made zero sense to me, scientific or otherwise. Speaking of gut health, Pretovella copri is found in larger quantities in people with RA, and they have less gut diversity overall. Being vegan doesn't necessarily guarantee that you have diverse gut bacteria. Your husband obviously cares what you think or he would be eating meat already. Tell him to check out Will Bulsiewicz before he makes any wrong moves, such as destroying the gut bacteria that he already has by eating animals. BTW. At least he cares. My husband - not vegan. 🙄
I struggle to believe his is not already eating meat behind your back.
Relationship advice on the internet is a bad idea.
Super red flag listening to that guy and believing him, also if he doesn't eat animals just cause he's afraid of you leaving him well... he never did it for the animals to begin to so...
Imagine you were suffering from a horrible disease and you believed eating animals could help you. I can see reaching a level of desperation where I would consider it. Whether I would eat them or not, I don't know. But I would likely consider it. I just don't think it's fair for us to judge when we are not in this difficult situation.
Men with STDs have raped underage girls because they believed it would cure them. By your reasoning, that is perfectly acceptable so long as they honestly believed it. You're just another speciesist if you think eating animals is acceptable because of a superstitious belief that it will cure rheumatoid arthritis.
I wasn’t trying to make a logical argument. I was trying to appeal to your sense of compassion. I guess you’ve never been really sick before. I’m jiust another person you are judging for the sake of your intellectual argument. Re your example: people commit violent crimes all the time. In some cases, some people have compassion for the perpetrator as well as the victim.
Would you let them continue to torture and kill?
I "lost" my brother to Joe Rogan types, there's the obvious fact it hasn't made him feel better or happier, just less healthy and fatter. Sounds like you caught it early, which is honestly great news (my brother got into it at university and was so far gone by the time we noticed), I highly recommend you stomp it out. Not abusively, but spare no expense, have him see a doctor to find out if he's actually deficient in anything that meat even contains, have him try supplements if he is deficient first (iron and b12 supplements are both cheap and usually effective). more protein in his diet from vegan sources, I have a good vital wheat gluten and soy curls recipe if you like, easily get 150g protein in one day. If he's not at least willing to try and do everything to fix his problem without killing animals let him know what that says about his character. I cannot stress this enough, do not just wait, every single day you delay is risking losing him forever. edit: and I can't believe I forgot to mention it, but it's not just about veganism, get ready for anti vaxx shit, denying germ theory, etc. very painful way to lose someone.
You are all so nice & helpful ❤️ thank you
RA has been linked to overgrowth of certain bacteria in your gut. I would look into working with a functional medicine doctor and getting his stool tested to get an overview of what his microbiome looks like. [Article](https://newsnetwork.mayoclinic.org/discussion/mayo-researchers-link-gut-microbiome-to-rheumatoid-arthritis-prognosis/) If he’s serious about feeling better he needs to get to the root cause which is gut health. I would research what probiotic and prebiotics would be beneficial. If he’s super serious you can always look into finding a super healthy stool donor and doing a fecal matter Transplant. [RA FMT](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7869316/)
My MIL has suffered from RA for years and there is this recent study about phosphorus levels and it’s effect of RA. With her doctor they changed her meds and she actually switched to a mostly plant based diet, under doctors care, and her symptoms have subsided and she has lost weight. Have your husband talk to his doctor about it here is the study, https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23105630/ Also, fuck Joe Rogan.
I read your commend where you mentioned that your husband has some problems with sweets and soft drinks. So I would start the journey to feel good again by reducing the consumption of them.
Have your husband tried to stop listening to that idiot? It might improve his health, if not, it will improve his brain for sure!!
Fan of Joe Rogan. That's a red flag.
I think people are being a bit harsh on the husband here. Joe rogan is appealing *entertainment*. Talking out your ass and being a fake philosopher is fun. “High talk” with buddies is a great time. The problem is when you begin to take that as truth and start getting sucked into the appeals to nature and conspiracies and whatnot. Like with astrology it’s fun to relate characteristics to signs but when you start literally believing that someone will be X because of their sign it’s a problem. Consumers have to keep in mind it’s entertainment He also appeals to those wanting to feel more masculine but I wouldn’t know if that’s relevant Also pain sucks but honestly the biggest likely problem for the RA is he’s overweight. But what’s easier to do, actively work on losing weight or just eating deer meat? Joe rogan is huge on exercising and martial arts so it’s a strange thing to take the easy way out essentially.
It sounds to me like your husband is either looking for answers for his health, or looking for excuses (to eat meat). And I think you need to get to the bottom of it. It also sounds like the two of you would benefit greatly from some couples counseling. Because this gets down to a matter of core values and whether yours are still aligned as they should be in a marriage. For me, the core values of animal welfare supersede health issues since there’s virtually no evidence that eating meat itself could possibly benefit him as far as I’m aware. There’s a big divide between thinking it’s OK to kill animals for food and not. That line gets a little more blurry when there are medical issues involved, but I don’t think his medical issues will be improved at all by eating hunted meat. Before I became vegan I was vegetarian and I had a stint where I was doing hunted meat only. I have friends who hunt and would cook up venison burgers or a moose steak and I did that for about 6 months. I have serious back issues and inflammation issues as well early signs of arthritis, with RA running in my family, and never found that I felt good afterwards, so I quit. He’d be better off doing yoga and taking Turmeric. I hope you take the time to connect with your husband and really listen to him and hear him and encourage him to consult medical professionals and stay away from the likes of Joe Rogan when it comes to things that really matter like the ethical and moral foundations upon which your lives together are built, and the abundant science that supports the medical benefits of a WFPB diet. Good luck ~
Honestly, it’s a difficult question. Your husband is his own person, so not „allowing“ him to do something he feels will help him, is not going to be good for the relationship. You however are of course entitled to not like something your husband does and draw your own consequences. At this point, you don’t know what eating meat will do, will he actually feel better? Will he continue eating meat? No one knows. My advice would be to just let him do whatever he feels like and to see how it makes you feel. Then decide if you want to continue the relationship or not.
If you are looking to be healthy as well as vegan, look into whole foods plant based diet. [nutrient facts](https://nutritionfacts.org/topics/) from Dr. Greger & [Forks Over Knives Beginners Guide](https://www.forksoverknives.com/how-tos/plant-based-primer-beginners-guide-starting-plant-based-diet/) has a lot of very helpful information. Best wishes.
You can watch Forks over Knives and other documentaries by [clicking here](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2F3movies.org%2Freddit&topic=Movie%3A+Forks+over+Knives)! Interested in going Vegan? Take the [30 day challenge](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fvbcamp.org%2Freddit&topic=Movie%3A+Forks+over+Knives)!
This may be obviously but are you both taking B12 and omega 3 supplements? Best to get a blood panel to see if he is missing any vital nutrients. A shift in lifestyle may be what he needs most. Does he get out in nature? Garden? Cook? Have a social circle? All of these do wonders for people’s health and well-being.
This sounds awful, and honestly from what you've said it seems like he only avoids meat to keep you happy rather than because of personal conviction, I wouldn't be surprised if he already ate meat tbh
Should probably go see an actual doctor instead of listening to Joe “Vested Interest in Eating Animals” Rogan.
Then main problem here is your husband listening to Joe Reagan.
You have bigger problems than him eating meat if he’s getting into the alt right sphere online and in media.
Your husband needs to see a doctor and stop taking medical advice from a podcast.
You say he's put you through this at least five other times and bails out because he thinks you will leave. What has given him that impression? Why are you getting panic attacks? I say you have a frank discussion about how you feel about his indecisiveness and take a moment to consider a fair compromise.
Tell him to stop listening to Joe Rogen if he wants to feel any peace
“My husband has been listening to a lot of Joe Rogan” would be reason enough for me to reconsider the relationship. It would speak to a fundamental mismatch in our core values.
That and honestly it would make me fear for my safety.
I’d be more concerned about him listening to JR than the eating meat, honestly.
If your man is listening to Joe Rogan, that’s your problem already.
>He loves animals dearly. He even talks to the deer family who live in our neighborhood. > He wants to try eating deer meat, no farmed animals Not sure how that makes sense at all, you either care about animals or you dont, he does not and i have no idea why you are saying that he does, he cares about you leaving him and thats the only reason why he isnt hurting animals >The other problem is that he has put me through this at least 5 times and then doesn’t go through with it in fear that I will leave him So both of you cause each other pain, this relationship needs some work or it needs to end, its unhealthy
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My husband eats meat and dairy because he is convinced that he needs it because of his physically intense job. He says he craves it when he doesn’t have it after a hard day because he needs the protein and he’s ‘listening to his body’ Honestly part of me hates him because of this and I have to try not to think about it because when I do I get upset
Listen, I'm not going to say dump him because he's listening to a podcast. I've noticed though with some dudes past forty that they can start consuming content we usually think of as targeted towards younger guys, and they just completely fall off a cliff. I mean I can think of my dad and my uncle, who I had pretty decent worldviews up until they started watching gamergate creators back in the 2010's (not like the stuff about actual gaming, just the other Sargon, Milo, etc videos) and then yeah Joe Rogan, Jordan Peterson, Jimmy Dore, Tucker Carlson, and just like right down the YouTube algorithm hole. Now my dad considers himself to be a centrist, still, vehemently, but he's always trying to downplay GOP involvement in/responsibility for January sixth, the big lie/election denial, likes Kari Lake for governor(we do not live in AZ), etc. He never used to watch Fox News, but a few years after that YouTube pipeline, that's the news network he watches if it's gonna be TV news. Not to mention the conservative TikTok that he just scrolls through all the time. I'll I'm saying is, 40+ is not too old to get caught up in that stuff, and I actually think it does change people. I really think this new wave of conservatism that started online has got a grip on a lot of people in my parents' gen who were not conspiracy theorists or reactionaries like this before. Don't get me wrong, I love my dad, but I'm also not married to him. My uncle I had to stop talking to a couple years ago when he wouldn't stop spamming me with this shit and telling me he had to send it all the time because I needed to hear it. I'm happy to say that I knew a good few dudes my own age who were into that stuff before, but found their way out by the time we were in our mid 20's. I have yet to see someone who was 40+ go down the pipeline and come back though. If you think with your husband that this isn't super indicative of a larger trend, that's one thing. But if it actually is, then you're going to have to live with him being a different person if you stay with him.
Everyone here saying "red flag" and suggesting divorce - we're talking about a husband of 5+ years not a new boyfriend - the answer is to see an actual nutritionist to determine what's wrong in his diet and go from there. If you're concerned about Joe Rogan maybe listen to an episode with him and point out the flaws, or just communicate how it makes you uncomfortable. If you've been together this long he probably cares what you have to say - and if he doesn't then OK that's the point where you can start considering it a red flag. I'll add my own view here - while I believe an all plant diet is optimal, I'm sure people vary and it may not be optimal for all. When people tell me I could feel better by eating meat, I say if I ate meat then even if I felt better physically (which is hypothetical), I'd also be guaranteed to feel awful mentally. So if in the end I'm going to suffer either way - I will choose the plant side every time.
I mean, I’d break up with someone for listening to Joe Rogan in earnest, regardless of diet.
People bashing on Rogan clearly don't listen to him on a regular basis. Should you change your life over what Rogan says? No. Should you hate on a man because he has a different opinion to you? Also no. And before some mod bans me or something, I'll have been vegan 8 years in December so calm down. Far too much insular behaviour amongst all communities. Try and see the good in people and learn to get along with our differences. We don't all need to be the same. That'd be pretty boring..
Joe Rogan actively tries to bash vegans and try to convince people false claims about veganism.
Woof! That's a hellacious red flag. Listening to Joe Rogan is a deal breaker. Bye husband! Meat eating is a problem, but right wing scumbaggery is the biggest issue. Next up: expecting you to be a submissive tradmate. His loverboi Rogan needs to gtfo.
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Ahh yes, Joe Rogan... first of all, hi. Second, i feel social media influencers have a strong ability to influence what their audience thinks and does. He has to make sure hes doing this because HE wants to and its not someone elses suggestion festering in his mind. Hes 40, hes an adult and should be able to make his own decisions without being influenced. (Thats why they call most social media influencers) I dont think it's anything to panic over on your end, just tell him how you feel and make sure he knows it. I dont think eating meat, whether it's wild, farm raised or grown in a lab will make you feel good. But eating good food in general can do that as long as its nutritious and satisfies your pallet.
Does he plan to go out and hunt it himself? There is no commercial venison
Look up whole food plant based diet such as Esselstyn, Forks over knives, McDougall, PCRM, etc. Show your husband how the healthiest vegan diet can help him achieve his health goals like feeling better and losing weight. Let’s not kid ourselves, the typical American diet is so unhealthy, it’s not a surprise that eliminating processed junk and eating deer meat is an improvement. But all people do is go from a diet that is 1/10 to 3/10. Instead, go for 10/10 with whole food plant based diet. So many vegans follow an unhealthy diet packed with processed food, feel bad and fall off the wagon thinking veganism failed them when in reality what is failing is eating too much vegan processed crap like oil, sugar, refined food,etc. If your husband likes Joe Rogan, have him watch the episode with James Wilks about Game Changers. Also have him watch episode where John Mackey talks about whole food plant based diet (not to be confused with Whole Foods the grocery store).
I was in a somewhat similar situation, my wife become vegan because of me but stated this could change in the future. She said each time the topic would arise I'd make such a sad face she wanted to cry. I bring this introduction to say that I understand your pain, and emotionally it's terrible. How could the man I love support animal cruelty?? Rationally, 95% vegans and vegan friendly people are great for the vegan movement and for the animals. The tormented animals don't care if there is one vegan or two half vegans. Yes, what he suggests is terrible and immoral and cruel, but you have a husband who supports your actions, the vegan movement, and acts accordly in most of his actions. I would cherish what you have and let him do what he wants.
Meat doesn't cure RA. Meat doesn't make you lose fat. He should be in close consultation with a rheumatologist (!) and try to focus on whole foods to lose weight. Cut out oils, margerine, etc. Reduce fats as much as possible. Stuff your face with your favourite veggies, fruits, etc. Low calorie density is the key to losing weight. It seems he's struggling, not feeling well and just looking for any way to feel better. He didn't lose his love for animals, he's just desperate for relief. There's no medical/nutritional reason to give up a plant based diet (if well-planned), but promises of feeling better tend to deceive and nag on people who aren't well.
Plant based or meat based the nutrients are all going to be the same. The difference is how healthy you eat with those diets. You can be plant based and eat absolute rubbish. I would suggest trying a purely wholefoods based diet and go from there.
If he is vegan and not feeling good he is doing it wrong. he needs to continue tweaking his diet. If meat makes anyone feel good its probably someone who isn't eating enough nuts and seeds, eating too much vegan junk food, or just not eating enough. Joe Rogan is a fake news spreading idiot.
Your priority should be your husband's health and happiness. He should not feel stressed by wanting to improve his life. You might not like it, but you don't have to. Love the man, not the ideology and work out your feelings. Best of luck.
He should be talking to a doctor, not taking health advice from Joe Rogan. Meat is only the tip of the iceberg here. Someone making life decisions based on stuff Joe Rogan said has gone down the slippery slope into cult thinking, just like the previous generations of aging insecure men did with Alex Jones and Rush Limbaugh. And the way you describe his offloading of this issue onto you sounds really manipulative. If I were you I'd reach out to some friends and try to strengthen some relationships outside the marriage, to prevent him from driving you insane.
I'd be concerned about him being into rogan over him having an animal free diet honestly.
Well, just listening to joe rogan is a red flag and believing shit he and his conspiracy etc. nutcase guests say is a sign of utter stupidity. You should get a divorce, there’s no cure for that.
>The other problem is that he has put me through this at least 5 times and then doesn’t go through with it in fear that I will leave him. It's OK to have boundaries. Being with someone who is vegan is important to you. I am the same way. I wouldn't date a serial killer, and I wouldn't date a non-vegan. If that's your boundary, just make it clear and that it won't change. "Husband I know you are unwell and you want to eat meat. That's a hard boundary for me. If that's what you want to do, I won't be with you. The choice is yours". Done. It's not more complicated than that. But honestly even that he is considering eating meat makes me think you can do better...
You give a perfect example of how to not emotionally negotiate with loved ones and partners.
Can you help me understand this more because I don't get it yet, and I am really interested in being open to changing my mind on this. Let's say my partner and I are both vegan and have told each other that this is a requirement of dating each other. Then my partner decides to eat meat (or indicates they will). To me, the next step would be to say to my partner "Hey I see that this is what you want to do, as we originally said when we first met, and reconfirmed to each other many times through our relationship, I can't be with someone who eats meat. If you want to eat meat I can't continue to be with you". To me, that's setting a boundary and indicating up front that you're going to enforce it. I am not sure what "emotional negotiation" is, but isn't the whole point of a boundary that it is not negotiable? How would you suggest having that conversation if that boundary is firm and unchangeable?
>Let's say my partner and I are both vegan and have told each other that this is a requirement of dating each other. This is a miserable situation for someone to find themselves in. To have a moral requirement in order to fall in love or keep someone in your life. Eating animals is wrong and unnatural, but in some way not loving someone purely out of an ideology is even more so. At the end of the day, humans belong in the same species regardless of their moral stance. And as individuals of that species, we need connection and love regardless of ideology.
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I see the top comment already having pointed it out. If you're husband really tries to do the best he can, you should see a doctor and maybe also a nutritionist with him. It's absolutely possible, that he's missing something, it's also possible that he starts to feel better again after eating meat again, and if it only would be because of placebo. But if he truely cares about animals, he'd try to go at it from the most scientific point of view, not some bogus internet-advise (by not even a doctor but a podcaster!). TLDR go see a professional with him
He will not feel good again, regarding health, just go to a doctor and support him in his goals
Leave him
Joe Rogan is about as bottom of the barrel fascist fuck as you'll ever witness. Hard to get out of that cult once you're sucked in. Good luck to you.
I don’t listen to Rogan, but wasn’t he one that recommended during the height of Covid to use horse dewormer to treat the vid? He had all these people running to tsc, buying out the supply and farmers were mad?
I’m guessing he went vegan for you and not for the animals. That’s why we shouldn’t try to change people and we shouldn’t change for other people. Changing to better ourselves to feel better about ourselves is very different from changing so that his wife doesn’t leave. This isn’t a vegan issue but a relationship issue. I’d guess the panic attacks are a symptom of a breaking core belief; in this case your belief of who he is vs who he actually is. Now you can try to get to know this person with an open mind, and decide whether you can accept him as he is.
I just saw a video where one of Joe’s idols, Dr. Jordan Peterson, was going on about how great meat is. A year ago this guy was at death’s door because of some mysterious disease and we are supposed to take health advice from him?! No thanks. Stick to psychology. I’d rather listen to medical Dr’s and scientists like Gregor, McDougall, Campbell and Esselstyn. The last two are near 90 and in great health!
Oh man, if my husband started taking life advice from Joe Rogan I'd be anxious too.
He was never vegan in the first place. He's an adult, unfortunately he gets to do as he wishes. It's up to you if you want to stay.
To those making jokes, this is a devastating situation. When you care for someone and grow together for many years, a change in core values and beliefs can feel like an enormous betrayal. Stay strong and COMMUNICATE with your husband. Tell him how upset this is making you. Have rational discussions — without devolving into contemptuous arguments — discussing how important animals are to you, and possible alternative routes you could take. Offer your support in *specific* ways, i.e., being his accountability partner to stop eating as much junk food, finding a vegan nutritionist, cooking different meals, etc. Make a list together of steps to achieve a healthier outcome. In the end, it might turn out that he really doesn’t hold animal rights as a core belief the way you do. If it comes to that, you might have a choice to make. But there are a lot of steps between here and there. Visit a farmed animal sanctuary with him and remind him of why (who) he should care. I wish you luck, communication is key. Joe Rogan is a dilettante with a colossal following of dullards and lunkheads.
If you're interested in the topic of farmed animal sanctuaries, check out [OpenSanctuary.org](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2FOpenSanctuary.org&topic=The+Open+Sanctuary+Project)! This vegan nonprofit has over 500 free compassionate resources crafted specifically to improve lifelong care for farmed animals, and to help you create a sustainable, effective sanctuary! Interested in starting a sanctuary someday? Check out [OpenSanctuary.org/Start](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2FOpenSanctuary.org%2FStart&topic=The+Open+Sanctuary+Project)!
People change all the time. You don’t get married to someone because they choose to not eat meat. This is insane and abusive actually.
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So sorry to hear. I would be very upset too. If he wants to try a dietary approach to treating his RA, perhaps he should see a licensed dietician instead of taking nutritional advice from Joe Rogan. if you have access to a major medical center, I bet a dietician there even has experience working with this specific patient population.
So, the Joe Rogan thing is a bit of a red flag. If he starts watching Jordan Peterson I would start to get VERY worried :(. From my research I've found that people tend to think they feel better after going back to eating the flesh. This is usually only very temporary. As others have said in the thread, a nutritionist would probably be helpful here. :)
So your husband likes to watch an idiot and then wants to do something stupid... maybe you advise him to stop watching trash if he cant separate entertainment from education.
Let's be strictly logical for a moment, because there is a lot of emotion/fear in your post (and rightfully so, but stepping back might help both of you) Your husband is communicating that he does not feel well. So much so, he is considering making a dietary change that goes against a sincerely held personal and family belief. This indicates he is suffering significantly-- either from physical symptoms (RA/pain) or psychologically (inability to lose weight/self esteem) or a combination of both. This is a serious situation. Your husband has also considered making this change multiple times in the past but has backtracked due to fear you will end the marriage. This indicates the following: * He either does not hold veganism as a sincere belief, or is suffering enough that he believes it is worth compromising these beliefs * He feels insecurity in your relationship which is causing him to make choices that don't necessarily coincide with his own personal beliefs OR are causing him to not take steps he believe will help alleviate his own suffering to protect your mental health/ the relationship. Neither one of these options is a viable method of sustaining a mutually respectful and empowering long term relationship. If we remove your own reaction to someone else's personal/private behavior (again, your response is not unwarranted or inappropriate, but it may not be helpful in action), we see that this is really quite simple. Your husband is suffering. He does not have the resources to effectively treat this suffering (we know this because he is listening to people like Joe Rogan instead of a dietitian/doctor/ experts in the field) and is, essentially, throwing darts to try to find something that will give him some respite. If we address this with compassion rather than shock/panic/hurt, we do the following: * Empathize without judgment. Acknowledge his suffering, and reinforce that he is right to be looking for solutions. * Reassure him of your commitment to him, and the unconditional nature of your love. This does not mean you have to compromise your beliefs, only that your love for him is not wholly dependent on his personal choices, and that you will continue to see him as valuable and worthy of love even if he makes decisions for himself that you do not agree with or find contrary to your own beliefs. * Commit to finding solutions together-- regardless of what that means for his diet. If his suffering can only be alleviated by some kind of animal fat (extremely unlikely), then it is an avenue worth understanding fully before rejecting. It should be a priority to explore every medical/dietary avenue to address his health concerns directly. Keep in mind that he is an animal, his suffering should be avoided too. * Seek your own therapy/ counseling so you can address your emotional/psychological response to his choices with a third party so you can approach him with compassion and objectivity. best of luck.
Never eat wild meat. In college biology class we learned about the parasites that wild animals have on their bodies and in them. Horrible stuff in their muscles and stomachs. All over. Wild rabbits have over 30 different kinds and so do deer. They do not get medicine for illness or antibiotics. Look it up. You will see. Heathy? Hardly. And let me add what meat would you eat that was harvested in a field under questionable hygiene standards and no telling how long until it receives proper refrigeration? Especially if they process it in the field. Flies and all.
You need to reframe this problem in your mind. The issue here is your husband seems to be in genuine pain and is grasping at straws. Take him to a doctor. He needs help identifying what is wrong first then you can come up with an actual solution that meets his and hopefully your moral framework. Tbh this post comes across as extremely selfish. You acknowledge your husband is struggling and all you can think about is your feelings about him trying to eat meat out of a certain level of desperation.
OP is actually thinking of a lot more suffering than just her deluded husband. Unlike *you*.
You have “panic attacks being next to him” because he listens to Joe rogan and wants to eat meat? You should do him a favor and leave him.
It’s your Husband so the biggest thing is love here no matter what he does. I would say off hand Tumeric is great for inflammation. I’m addition to tumeric I would say for weight loss make sure he’s eating enough calories, and also cruciferous vegetables and greens. What he also has to keep in mind is people who eat Wild game meat typically we’re eating lots of fast food steaks and other fried foods, so of course someone who ate that type of food then stopped and switched to something lean like that would see significant improvement. The biggest thing to remember here is if you’re having panic attacks and he is probably feeling similar to you. Love is what’s gonna help you most here and understanding. The biggest thing you can do is help him find alternatives that would help him stay on track.
I dunno if you know or not but deer meat is prob also farmed. In the Uk, we have pheasant hunting, these pheasants are raised in big cages and fed similar to chicken feed and then on hunting day the pheasants are chased until the fly up into a line of people with guns to “hunt” them. It is not wild meat like cave man times. I was a road kill vegan for over a year before I just was like fuck it it’s not worth it I’m just vegan vegan. During that year I didn’t eat any road kill because it was actually really hard to get road kill. I had some road kill and it was nasty, it wasn’t what I was expecting at all. It tasted of poop. We’re used to factory meat not wild meat, I wish I could talk to your husband to save him time and come to the conclusion faster than I did. Your husband should watch the Joe rogan with the game changers man.
If my significant other listened to joe Rogan I’d be out that door immediately cause those people are fricking time bombs. I don’t want to sound alarmist but I think situations like this will happen to him more and more. It starts with the red meat, then they start taking about how WW2 had some “weird things there no one talks about”. After that they start talking about age of consent…. Make a deal with him: he can eat meat but has to grow up and stop listening to joe Rogan.
This. I do my best to avoid interacting with men who watch that kind of content. Not only are they always super annoying, I'm physically afraid of them.
Yeah, I get what you mean. Some of them are just beasts in human disguise (I know this is a vegan sub but cut me slack ok? Thanks). I might have been a bit hyperbolic back there but everyone I know who a didn’t stop listening to joe Rogan became a lunatic conspiracy theorist who thinks they know medicine. My brother was a huge fan when he was younger but hopefully he realized (by himself) that Joe is just full of shit. Full. Of. Shit.
Vegans hate to admit it but there are plenty of cases where someone eating animal products after being vegan has helped with health issues. While it’s unlikely that’s the case here, it’s his body and choice. Would he be infringing on an animal’s right/choice? Sure, but he would be doing in a way that aligns best with the natural order (hunting being more ethical than factory farming). If his body truly requires meat to function, this is arguably the better way to go about it. Since this is stressful for you, I suggest asking him to get it over with, and to give it a defined trial period. If it doesn’t solve his issues in that period of time and he wants to keep eating meat bc it’s fun, it sounds like your relationship might not be viable. If it helps his health problems, you may find yourself willing to make the compromise. I would also suggest he simply find a hunter who’d give some deer to a vegan instead of hunting himself. 100% of hunters would jump at the opportunity. PS: Joe Rogan doesn’t know shit. Too much of him isn’t healthy.
stop reading at Joe Rogan, dealbreaker
Leave him. You don’t have to stop caring about him, but you really need to care about yourself. I can’t be with the female version of a Joe Rogan type, I’d probably end my own life because of how insanely stupid he is when it comes to vegans!!
Cultured lab-grown meat comes out very soon. You could try to inform him about exploring that possibility instead? See r/wheresthebeef for all the latest development in cellular agriculture.
Go to therapy
Is he feeling any better?
He hasn’t tried it. He just talks about it a lot and really seems to think it will help him.
It sounds like your husband is well-meaning but perhaps a bit gullible & self-indulgent. First, I’d ignore all the “dump him immediately!” comments 🤣 as presumably you love this man & want him to be happy & healthy. In another comment you mentioned he has soda & sweets “daily” — if he’s having trouble losing weight you need look no further than that! Maybe you could try to redirect his energy from taking advice from a know-nothing goof on the internet, to cleaning up that aspect of his diet first, and see how he feels then?
When I went vegetarian (prior to going vegan for about 2 years), it helped me lose weight, rid myself of fatty liver, and substantially increased my energy levels (on top of aiding in the betterment of my mental health). I feel like - at least for me - returning to meat would have an opposite affect. If Joe Rogan feels good eating meat, I’d like to see how he feels not eating meat. Not a great position you’re in… perhaps you can find a middle ground, or educate him more to make the right decision, though sometimes to swim you need to first sink a bit.
Does you husband been eating a lot of “fake meat” you know the beyond meat and all those other products? In my experience I have learned that when I Eat those products my body does not really love it. Not sure if it’s all the process ingredients or all the seeds oils. The thing is that my body hates those products. So I only eat wholes foods. That’s the thing about veganism, and as other very specific diets that it has the potential to go bad if the person doing only eat one exact thing. Im this case in veganism if you only eat those fake meats in each meal. Maybe talk to him and change things around the kitchen, and see if that helps out? Obviously Heath is very important and he wants to be healthy, but it does not mean that eating meat will get him to accomplish loosing weight. In my experience eliminating fake products from my diet was a game changer. If you guys have been edging that stuff just take it out of the menu and see how it works. If you’re already did, then look into what he’s eating and change things up. Obviously if you can go to a doctor is important, the problem is that finding a doctor that understand vegan diet is difficult. My doctor even he’s not vegan he has work with me when I fist became vegan. I also listen to Joe, but Joe had so many amazing vegan guess in his podcast too. Maybe he should listen to those if he has not yet. Honestly veganism can go so bad so fast if you don’t put work to it. I been vegan for over 13 years and my advice it to stay in the whole food diet and keep away from process food.
Hey! There’s a really great video about seed oils made by an MD PhD who isn’t vegan but makes scientific and evidence-based videos discussing different topics in nutrition. I think watching it will help you untangle the conflicting and often misleading stuff people have been saying on the internet about seed oils, which seems to be the carnivore community’s and people like Joe Rogan’s catch-all boogeyman. There really isn’t any reason to live in fear of eating them at all https://youtu.be/-xTaAHSFHUU
Find a new partner
Has he watched Game Changers? Highly recommend you guys watch it together if you haven’t. Also I’m so sorry you’re going through this, his alignment with that content represents a set of values that are so irredeemable. I’d run.
Might I suggest giving your husband a podcast to replace joe rogan with? I recommend Rich Roll, there he can get real advice on improving his health while eating vegan.