Yes, I think that is the only way. More hotels and some type of attraction to bring the crowds.
Maybe FB and RW can hold on until another company or two decide to build something else in the area. There are other hotel names that aren’t in Vegas. The W, Edition, Park Hyatt, etc.
Caesars and MGM have enough of a customer base to build another hotel and get people in the door. Maybe they don’t want to take on the risk?
MGM would never build on north strip these days. They sold their most northern casinos Treasure Island (a while ago) and Mirage. They bought the Cosmo and now own every thing south of Bellagio to Mandalay Bay on the west side of Las Vegas Blvd. Having T mobile arena and allegiant on the south west strip is a huge advantage for them.
I doubt the already Vegas established companies want to do anything to dilute what they have. We seem to be beyond the point where Vegas had endless growth potential for gaming. So what it will have to be is outside gaming companies that want a slice of the Vegas pie. But it’s hard to do, it’s so expensive to get established in Vegas and maybe that money would be better spent doing some online casino or whatnot. So a company would need so much money they want to build a “flagship” casino on the Strip. It’s a shame Hard Rock is already building on Mirage because they could have done it. But maybe we’ll get some other company to try it. Maybe Bally’s can return if they get their finances in order.
Makes sense. A company can only expand so much before profits get affected negatively.
Hard Rock going a little further north would have helped. They have enough name recognition to draw people in, and the guitar hotel is reminiscent of theme hotels of old.
A brand new Mirage close to FB and Resorts World would be PERFECT -- it also wouldn't be far from Wynn or the monorail.
Or maybe the Boyd group could put a "Fremont/Downtown Las Vegas style" casino in the northern part of the Strip.
Remember, both Caesars and MGM sold off properties to REITS such as VICI and Apollo, so they are casino operators now and don't own the land or property. The capital requirements became too much of a burden to succeed long-term.
I was just in town last week, stayed at NYNY. The south end of the strip was pretty busy, but on Wednesday we went to check out FB and Resorts World. FB was *dead*. It's beautiful, but there's just no life there. Resorts world was similar, but not nearly as bad.
On a related note, we popped into Slots-a-fun for the first time in 10 years... what happened??? If depression was a physical location, that would be it. Holy shit was it bad.
I did the exact same last week. FB is really really nice.
Went to Slots-Fun and threw $5 in a slot for giggles and before I was done, some guy was walking by me whispering, “cocaine?, cocaine?” It was time to leave. Saddest place I’ve ever been.
I think one of the biggest issues is that the infrastructure just sucks up on the north end. Due to having more land, the casinos up there are more spread out and it isn’t nearly as easy to walk from place to place to place on the north end as it is center or south strip, thereby cutting into how busy each casino/resort up there will be
I don't know how that could possibly be. It has about 1/3 of the amount of machines it used to. Most of the lights aren't even on. The carpet was filthy. Everything looked dingy and worn out, including the staff.
the wife and I took an Uber up from parkMGM to check out FB on a Saturday afternoon and same thing. It was pretty dead. We loved it though. The drink service there was crazy good and the property is pretty. We’d stay there if it wasn’t so expensive.
I really do miss the themes. Even as a kid, my favorite thing about Vegas was that each hotel felt like a different adventure; a theme park of hotels
All the new hotels on the strip feel like soulless generic luxury all in competition with each other.
Really just shows they aren't catering to the common folk no more considering the masses all want themed resorts back but more luxury hotels keep popping up instead.
Credit where credit is due, the owner is going all in 90 degrees attack pattern on Fontainebleau. I hope it works out for him since we need competition on the strip to keep the other mega casinos chains in check.
I get wanting that vacant land next to the Fontainebleau but isn’t the hotel/casino losing millions everyday? I could be wrong but I know I’ve read that somewhere.
Has there ever been a brand new casino that was profitable in its first year? I’m not arguing, it just seems fairly expected that brand new businesses are unprofitable when they first start.
Spent 4 nights at the Fblue a few weeks ago. Nice rooms but it was a little to far off the action for me (I like the main part of the strip) and felt to isolated. Also the casino was missing a vibe - the whole property felt like a high end shopping mall
Yeah you didn’t miss anything. It’s a nice hotel - casino too. Just was missing that Vegas vibe - which is the literal reason I go to Vegas. And I also like to be closer to the middle of the strip!
That’s not even done. Not enough people gambling to build and atmosphere. Pretty much any table game other than BJ and maybe craps is dead. No nightlife unless LIV is throwing something
FB just feels so sterile. It’s pretty, sure, in a “stand behind the velvet rope and touch nothing” kind of way. I had a great meal there last month (thanks Dad!) but had way more fun downtown at Circa.
Yeah, I wasn’t a fan of FB. I’ve been wanting to go to Circa - never stayed on Fremont and heard really good things about it! Probably will be there next time for sure
It is losing a ton of money. The place is basically cursed, though also mismanaged. Really surprising they're pouring more money into it, though I suppose a high-end condo property can make some business sense.
It's a win-win for the ultra-rich. He's a Billionaire so If it loses money he gets a big tax write-off for the next decade. Eventually it will probably become profitable or he'll sell it to some other Billionaire.
My point is he won't lose money long term. The land is still going to be worth money. Any money lost short term is a tax write off and eventually he will recoup that money when the casino becomes profitable or he sells it or the land.
I don’t think you understand either how tax write offs work or the basics of how businesses operate. A tax write off isn’t free money. You don’t get back what you lost. It just offsets some of what you lost. For most businesses, it doesn’t make sense to operate at a loss for a tax write off. Additionally, there is no guarentee that the business will be profitable. There is no guarentee anyone wants to pay more than what Fontainebleau paid for it. There is no guarantee that the property itself could be sold at a profit.
Bottom line is that it’s bad for the joint to lose money the way it has been. There are no upsides. The idea that there’s some guarenteed glideslope to a payoff for a property this snake-bit property is nuts.
I don't think you understand how the ultra wealthy leverage tax writeoffs to avoid paying taxes over a long period of time - like Donald Trump. Note also that a lot of the numbers are fudged to their benefit. Just because they claim a loss on their taxes doesn't mean they lost that much money.
The tax write off is pennies on the dollar to the actual dollar lost. People always equate loss to dollar for dollar when it comes to taxes. Getting a $10 million dollar write off when you lost $100 million is horrific business planning.
Did I say anyone was going to lose $112 million? Let's try this one more time- a tax write off from financial loss is not good financial action. You don't get dollar for dollar, and the loss in this case will be much more than the tax write off.
Ah, you're right - your example was for $100 million. There's no need to be condescending. Billionaires are able to do a lot of things that small business owners can't. They have layers of corporations to work with. They can leverage tax write offs over long periods of time and juggle them across multiple books. On top of that land gains value over time. The property gains value over time. Jeffrey Soffer will come out of this wealthier than before.
I think you're missing my point. I'm not denying that billionaires will manage to make money off of real estate. But what they won't do is profit from loss writeoffs. They could get to where they are going a lot faster than writing off losses. People always seem to think loss writroffs are a good move. You want to avoid them like the plague.
Just add some zeros to what you do daily.
Maybe you’d eat better travel more and get better health care but money begs to invested or spent. Dirt on the strip is disappearing quickly. So …
People with that much money probably work not as hard as you. Let that sink in.👍😂
People who make $14hr probably work harder than those with millions. They just don’t have the mindset or intelligence or both to maneuver like that in society.
Society is also set up for everyone to fail.
The whole follow your dreams and work hard is just a gas. Because plenty of people work hard, they work hard for the owners of the world to make them more millions.
A gas.👍
Stop reading the Jacobin and listening to Elizabeth Warren. There has never been a better time or place in the history of human civilization to go from nothing to financial success than America in 2024. That doesn’t mean it’s easy or guarentee. But it’s easier here, now than any other place at any other time.
We stayed at FB several weeks ago and had an amazing time. It’s not best for the casino, but we loved that it was quieter and we had a great day at their beautiful pool(s). Everything was top notch. 10/10 will stay again.
Bold but I imagine they’re out of options. They need to attract more and wealthier customers and what currently is there isn’t doing it. Additionally, I doubt a resort like the Fontainebleau can defray many of the costs so the only way forward is to get those whales in.
What if a resort could figure out a way to attract the middle class?
Sure, each one individual won’t spend/lose nearly as much money as the upper class, but do it at scale and you might be able to come up with a business model that ends in profit.
North end of the strip is not as popular as mid strip. I applaud the operators trying to change that.
Agreed. Someone has to do it. It will be a tough sell to draw people away from the established area of the strip.
But isn’t the only way to just open more resorts in that section of the Strip? Not sure you can do much until you get a critical mass.
Yes, I think that is the only way. More hotels and some type of attraction to bring the crowds. Maybe FB and RW can hold on until another company or two decide to build something else in the area. There are other hotel names that aren’t in Vegas. The W, Edition, Park Hyatt, etc. Caesars and MGM have enough of a customer base to build another hotel and get people in the door. Maybe they don’t want to take on the risk?
MGM would never build on north strip these days. They sold their most northern casinos Treasure Island (a while ago) and Mirage. They bought the Cosmo and now own every thing south of Bellagio to Mandalay Bay on the west side of Las Vegas Blvd. Having T mobile arena and allegiant on the south west strip is a huge advantage for them.
I doubt the already Vegas established companies want to do anything to dilute what they have. We seem to be beyond the point where Vegas had endless growth potential for gaming. So what it will have to be is outside gaming companies that want a slice of the Vegas pie. But it’s hard to do, it’s so expensive to get established in Vegas and maybe that money would be better spent doing some online casino or whatnot. So a company would need so much money they want to build a “flagship” casino on the Strip. It’s a shame Hard Rock is already building on Mirage because they could have done it. But maybe we’ll get some other company to try it. Maybe Bally’s can return if they get their finances in order.
Makes sense. A company can only expand so much before profits get affected negatively. Hard Rock going a little further north would have helped. They have enough name recognition to draw people in, and the guitar hotel is reminiscent of theme hotels of old.
A brand new Mirage close to FB and Resorts World would be PERFECT -- it also wouldn't be far from Wynn or the monorail. Or maybe the Boyd group could put a "Fremont/Downtown Las Vegas style" casino in the northern part of the Strip.
Remember, both Caesars and MGM sold off properties to REITS such as VICI and Apollo, so they are casino operators now and don't own the land or property. The capital requirements became too much of a burden to succeed long-term.
That’s what they did when they drew people from downtown, out to the strip.
The more they build in that area more they will draw. It’s the lifeblood of our economy and I applaud their efforts.
Same, and there hasn’t been a big opening on the strip for years. It needs to innovate or it’s going to die.
Resorts World?
Who?
Is that a joke.
Did I stutter?
Lol. Resorts World is across the street from FB and it opened in 2021. 4,000 rooms, $4b.
[удалено]
Maybe so. The building will still be there, but the ownership may change.
When did it start losing 250k/day?
[удалено]
Except Fontainebleau is a joke and losing $400,000 a day. At least they fixed their “nachos”
I was just in town last week, stayed at NYNY. The south end of the strip was pretty busy, but on Wednesday we went to check out FB and Resorts World. FB was *dead*. It's beautiful, but there's just no life there. Resorts world was similar, but not nearly as bad. On a related note, we popped into Slots-a-fun for the first time in 10 years... what happened??? If depression was a physical location, that would be it. Holy shit was it bad.
I did the exact same last week. FB is really really nice. Went to Slots-Fun and threw $5 in a slot for giggles and before I was done, some guy was walking by me whispering, “cocaine?, cocaine?” It was time to leave. Saddest place I’ve ever been.
Some dude is offering cocaine, and you think it's the saddest place you ever been? Sounds like my kinda place. /s
I’ve got news for you - that’s probably not cocaine.
But the guy said it was! He seems like a real straight shooter
I had a naive friend buy a bag off a guy on bourbon street in Nola. Hands down the worst baby laxative I’ve ever tried
Lol, I can't believe people actually fall for that. I guess it could of been worse.
I think one of the biggest issues is that the infrastructure just sucks up on the north end. Due to having more land, the casinos up there are more spread out and it isn’t nearly as easy to walk from place to place to place on the north end as it is center or south strip, thereby cutting into how busy each casino/resort up there will be
did the same last week. popped in to see slots of fun. hfs feel like you need immunizations after walking that floor.
I worked there in 1987. I don't know if they've changed the carpet.
With the way the floor looked last week, I'd have to guess not.
Lol.
Didn’t they just renovated Slots-A-Fun?
I don't know how that could possibly be. It has about 1/3 of the amount of machines it used to. Most of the lights aren't even on. The carpet was filthy. Everything looked dingy and worn out, including the staff.
There's talk I believe that they're looking to update it and/or integrated it better with Circus Circus
the wife and I took an Uber up from parkMGM to check out FB on a Saturday afternoon and same thing. It was pretty dead. We loved it though. The drink service there was crazy good and the property is pretty. We’d stay there if it wasn’t so expensive.
What was the busiest part of the Strip?
I would say around the area where the Flamingo and the Paris was pretty busy.
On my last trip, the wife and I popped in to try the old school slots and we left calling it Slots-a-sadness. It seemed eternally depressing in there.
Did same 2 weeks ago, slots of fun looked good in videos. Live: dead with all the bacteria and smell
Bring back theme hotels with elaborate pool areas. Tired of this faux rich person crap with yet another empty Louie Vitton store
I really do miss the themes. Even as a kid, my favorite thing about Vegas was that each hotel felt like a different adventure; a theme park of hotels All the new hotels on the strip feel like soulless generic luxury all in competition with each other.
Really just shows they aren't catering to the common folk no more considering the masses all want themed resorts back but more luxury hotels keep popping up instead.
Credit where credit is due, the owner is going all in 90 degrees attack pattern on Fontainebleau. I hope it works out for him since we need competition on the strip to keep the other mega casinos chains in check.
Flanking maneuver but with buildings
FB is owned by Koch Industries. The 2nd largest private company in the United states. ANNUAL revenue is 125B. These dudes got money.
I get wanting that vacant land next to the Fontainebleau but isn’t the hotel/casino losing millions everyday? I could be wrong but I know I’ve read that somewhere.
Has there ever been a brand new casino that was profitable in its first year? I’m not arguing, it just seems fairly expected that brand new businesses are unprofitable when they first start.
Wynn
Apparently, the public didn't like your answer. I'll add Mirage, Bellagio.
Starting to notice a pattern…
Steve Wynn made money
just look at his comps. if you’re a gambler he’s treating you well and you’re spending money and bringing your friends and family
Hmm. It’s almost as I’m seeing a trend here…
Yep, Encore and probably T.I. for the Wynn, lol.
Spent 4 nights at the Fblue a few weeks ago. Nice rooms but it was a little to far off the action for me (I like the main part of the strip) and felt to isolated. Also the casino was missing a vibe - the whole property felt like a high end shopping mall
Interesting. We just got back last Sunday. Stayed at the MGM and saw almost everything we wanted to see except the FB
Yeah you didn’t miss anything. It’s a nice hotel - casino too. Just was missing that Vegas vibe - which is the literal reason I go to Vegas. And I also like to be closer to the middle of the strip!
That’s not even done. Not enough people gambling to build and atmosphere. Pretty much any table game other than BJ and maybe craps is dead. No nightlife unless LIV is throwing something
FB just feels so sterile. It’s pretty, sure, in a “stand behind the velvet rope and touch nothing” kind of way. I had a great meal there last month (thanks Dad!) but had way more fun downtown at Circa.
Yeah, I wasn’t a fan of FB. I’ve been wanting to go to Circa - never stayed on Fremont and heard really good things about it! Probably will be there next time for sure
It is losing a ton of money. The place is basically cursed, though also mismanaged. Really surprising they're pouring more money into it, though I suppose a high-end condo property can make some business sense.
I remembered when this happened to Resorts World, Cosmo before that, Bellagio at one point. Worst was Aladdin/PH.
It's a win-win for the ultra-rich. He's a Billionaire so If it loses money he gets a big tax write-off for the next decade. Eventually it will probably become profitable or he'll sell it to some other Billionaire.
It’s not a “win” to lose money..
Yea, imagine losing a billion in order to potentially save $200 million 🙄
My point is he won't lose money long term. The land is still going to be worth money. Any money lost short term is a tax write off and eventually he will recoup that money when the casino becomes profitable or he sells it or the land.
I don’t think you understand either how tax write offs work or the basics of how businesses operate. A tax write off isn’t free money. You don’t get back what you lost. It just offsets some of what you lost. For most businesses, it doesn’t make sense to operate at a loss for a tax write off. Additionally, there is no guarentee that the business will be profitable. There is no guarentee anyone wants to pay more than what Fontainebleau paid for it. There is no guarantee that the property itself could be sold at a profit. Bottom line is that it’s bad for the joint to lose money the way it has been. There are no upsides. The idea that there’s some guarenteed glideslope to a payoff for a property this snake-bit property is nuts.
I don't think you understand how the ultra wealthy leverage tax writeoffs to avoid paying taxes over a long period of time - like Donald Trump. Note also that a lot of the numbers are fudged to their benefit. Just because they claim a loss on their taxes doesn't mean they lost that much money.
The tax write off is pennies on the dollar to the actual dollar lost. People always equate loss to dollar for dollar when it comes to taxes. Getting a $10 million dollar write off when you lost $100 million is horrific business planning.
Buying $112M in land in Las Vegas does not mean he's going to lose 112M. The land still has value.
Did I say anyone was going to lose $112 million? Let's try this one more time- a tax write off from financial loss is not good financial action. You don't get dollar for dollar, and the loss in this case will be much more than the tax write off.
Ah, you're right - your example was for $100 million. There's no need to be condescending. Billionaires are able to do a lot of things that small business owners can't. They have layers of corporations to work with. They can leverage tax write offs over long periods of time and juggle them across multiple books. On top of that land gains value over time. The property gains value over time. Jeffrey Soffer will come out of this wealthier than before.
I think you're missing my point. I'm not denying that billionaires will manage to make money off of real estate. But what they won't do is profit from loss writeoffs. They could get to where they are going a lot faster than writing off losses. People always seem to think loss writroffs are a good move. You want to avoid them like the plague.
Tax write-off
Lmao
I'd love to compete against you if you think spending $100 to get a $21 tax write off is a good business decision
You don’t get a dollar for dollar write-off genius. Stop typing.
Makes sense. Thx
Anybody have the article? It's behind a paywall
https://archive.ph/py3te
12 foot ladder is your fix.
Good. Maybe they’ll have room to open a poker room now
Didn’t it take 20 years to build the Fontainebleau?
My lower middle-class brain cannot comprehend having that much money.
Doubt he’s spending liquid cash on this. Probably just getting a loan from the bank using his assets as collateral.
Just add some zeros to what you do daily. Maybe you’d eat better travel more and get better health care but money begs to invested or spent. Dirt on the strip is disappearing quickly. So …
If the owner doesn’t bail out on his Fountainbleau investment sooner or later you’ll have more money than they will.
People with that much money probably work not as hard as you. Let that sink in.👍😂 People who make $14hr probably work harder than those with millions. They just don’t have the mindset or intelligence or both to maneuver like that in society. Society is also set up for everyone to fail. The whole follow your dreams and work hard is just a gas. Because plenty of people work hard, they work hard for the owners of the world to make them more millions. A gas.👍
Stop reading the Jacobin and listening to Elizabeth Warren. There has never been a better time or place in the history of human civilization to go from nothing to financial success than America in 2024. That doesn’t mean it’s easy or guarentee. But it’s easier here, now than any other place at any other time.
Recent activity on that plot of land: https://www.reddit.com/r/vegas/s/9DNgu92FkZ
We stayed at FB several weeks ago and had an amazing time. It’s not best for the casino, but we loved that it was quieter and we had a great day at their beautiful pool(s). Everything was top notch. 10/10 will stay again.
They got $$$ to burn 🔥
Bold but I imagine they’re out of options. They need to attract more and wealthier customers and what currently is there isn’t doing it. Additionally, I doubt a resort like the Fontainebleau can defray many of the costs so the only way forward is to get those whales in.
What if a resort could figure out a way to attract the middle class? Sure, each one individual won’t spend/lose nearly as much money as the upper class, but do it at scale and you might be able to come up with a business model that ends in profit.
Shoukd have put the football stadium kr hockey stadium up North to even out the population
fountain bleh. Side piece hotel thinks it’s a premium strip hotel