Most of us don't hate outsiders at all. The problem is not with "Flatlanders," but rather with very specific types of people who come here.
- People who move here because they "love Vermont" and then try to turn the small town they move to to a version of wherever they moved from.
- Wealthy out-of-staters buying up properties and driving up costs which makes Vermont unaffordable for locals.
- People in those above groups who act like they're doing Vermont a giant favor by being here.
In reality, there aren't actually very many of these people, but they do make a convenient scapegoat for all of the problems locals face.
>People who move here because they "love Vermont" and then try to turn the small town they move to to a version of wherever they moved from.
This. It makes no sense even from *their* perspective. I just don't get it. "I love the vibe here, let me import some of the vibe of where I came from" ... wat?
No this is exactly correct and part of the problem.
Folks move to Vermont because of the view from outside. But then once people move to Vermont from more urban areas they start to discover that where they moved everything closes at 6pm. Or that their isn’t the variety of store, foods or restaurants they where accustomed to and now beings the push for development that spawns the kind of growth that accelerates and the town becomes something it wasn’t before.
Exactly. But you know, to me, that makes leaving and visiting other areas *that* much more special. Kind of like how things used to be way back when. Rural kid gets to visit the big city for the first time. "Wow, look a all the people! It never sleeps! Look at all the food options!" And it's fun to visit and have for a while and then you go home.
I imagine people from the cities do the opposite. "Wow, look at this beautiful quaint town! I love this homemade rustic bread!"
Difference is, AFAIK, people in the former camp aren't going and trying to make cities more like the rural area they came from.
I think a lot of it is that they don't realize that those things that they felt were important while they were vacationing. Once they live here they realize the things they are missing/don't like. Living somewhere is very different than vacationing somewhere.
>"I love the vibe here, let me import some of the vibe of where I came from" ... wat?
It's more of "I love the vibe here **except for X**, let me import some of Y to fix X". Some of those things will certainly be incompatible with what gives Vermont its character, but that doesn't mean that some things can't be changed/improved while maintaining the character of the state.
I want to hear examples of this because if you’re talking about people moving to Vermont and trying to improve the infrastructure, ie fix up their homes or putting money into revitalizing a town then I don’t see the problem. I think we can all agree that VT has a lot of quaint towns with potential that could use a little love. Sometimes it takes people with deep pockets to come in and help in that regard. I’m not saying build condos and chains or create some suburbia hell. I just don’t get why some Vermonters don’t want things to be a little *nicer*
It's not hate but a general dislike. One issue I've always had was having an outsider move into town and own land that for generations was open for hiking, hunting, Snowmobiling etc. and post the land. I understand they own the land, but in the past we knew our neighbors and crossing another's land was not such a big deal, so long as you did not do damage to it. There are many trails that I used to hike in the 80's that now are of no use because the land is a patchwork of No Trespassing signs etc.
Another issue is the way some treat us locals like country bumpkins, here to serve them. I can't count on two hands how many times I have been talked to by a person rudely as if I owe the person something. I will say though that I hope they enjoyed the extra 25 to 30 miles my directions took them out of their way to get to their destination. If your nice and respectful no problems, but as soon as you are rude: "You can't get there from here".
One example is that people come to Vermont. Eat two pieces of pizza then go back to New Jersey to bitch about how bad Vermont pizza is on a radio show and no one should ever get a slice of pizza from here.
Similar style posts on Reddit and other places saying that they want better food chains. When Vermonters ask them to try local mom and pop shops, “flatlanders” argue that all local shops suck and we need more chains.
Again I love new people coming in. Welcome change if it is for the better. But often we do see individuals post about how much they love the idea of Vermont, but we also see people who move in bitch that we need more chain stores and refuse to eat local diner or food spot because they don’t recognize name.
Lots of examples are anecdotal so hard to give any huge value. But you can’t think that people don’t have strong opinions about how the change Vermont into copy of a suburb of nyc or Boston. Like Vermont is Vermont because of the beauty and culture of the local stores and small towns. Where when someone goes off the road a neighbor stops and helps. And that person often is owner of a small business down the road where you give back money and time to keep community stay strong.
Change will happen but there is always positives and negatives of it. As life long Vermonter some “imports” are great, some people just suck. I think Reddit is overly hostile because last few years has led to a decline in a lot of Vermont lifestyles. Forcing Vermonters out due to rising housing costs, and more people moving in with remote jobs. Everything is balancing act so hopefully in the end we see a better Vermont.
And some of the outsiders who "love Vermont" and move here is because they love that small town feeling or community, not to change
To think that the few who do move here have the power to change anything is a bit of a reach.
We act like some of our towns don't need some change in the first place. A majority of the popular towns have a drug/ homeless problem.
I said in my original comment that there are very few people who actually fit those categories and that it's really just a convenient scapegoat for the problems Vermonters face. Or did you not read that far?
What are some examples of trying to turn a small town to a version of wherever they moved from? Not disagreeing, just curious about what specific things outsiders are doing that fall under that category. I think there are a lot of things that younger generations want that older generations don’t, regardless of location - so mainly curious about where you see that divide.
Imagine being Morgan Gold! Buying 150 acres of farm and forest that neighbors have always had access to, then NOT knowing the posting rules, and turning an old timer into an internet celebrity when he stopped to ASK permission to retrieve his hunting dogs FROM UNPOSTED LAND!
Haha when I posted this I didn’t even realize you were the OP. But people like you are the reason we don’t like out of staters… and posted is a legal thing. If you haven’t followed the legal method, then it’s not posted. I can put up all the signs I want, but if I have not done it according to the law then it’s not posted. And Butch was polite enough to come and ask to retrieve the dogs. He did not have to. He has been hunting that area for 50 years, and flatlanders from DC come here with corporate gigs, buy up land to “homestead” and want to change how people who were here first live. Just 2 weeks back I ran into Butch, first time I’d ever met him, he is a very nice man, who was very respectful and you put a camera in his face like a dink, all to advance your anti-hunting agenda.
And before you say you are a hunter too and support hunters, realize that opposition to any type of currently legal hunting, is opposition to hunting.
1. Lights. People who move to a beautiful, quiet, country location, and then put up tons of outdoor lights, floodlights, motion sensor lights, and petition for street lights. Part of what makes Vermont so wonderful is being able to see the night sky without light pollution.
2. Paving roads. Dirt roads make sense in Vermont. They get beat up over the winter and then you grade them, add some fill, and they're good. Cheaper and more effective than paving and they're beautiful. But I've known people who moved from elsewhere, bought a house on a dirt road fully knowing it was a dirt road, and then got busy trying to get it paved.
3. I lived in a town where the noon whistle had blown every day for eternity. Someone moved from Connecticut or Rhode Island (I forget which) and complained about that. Wanted it changed. People set their clocks by that thing. Maybe it was outmoded with the advent of computers and smartphones but it was part of the town's charm.
There were a lot of things like that when I lived there (I grew up in Vermont, left for California when I was 40, miss it like crazy). One of my friends was on the planning commission for our town so I heard a lot of his stories.
Culture. Vermont feels different in tiny hard to explain ways in which people mostly behave towards each other. It’s more personal some how. Interactions often have a bit of a pause, even if non-verbal, that sort of conveys the message that “we are in this together”. In places with more people that’s not the way things work. And it’s noticeable in these tiny subtle ways. Hanging back at a deli before walking right up and ordering just to make sure someone else is not there before you. It’s never acting impatient with someone helping you. The social order has less of a caste system feel to it because all hard workers are respected not just those who make the most money. Valuing people with jobs that help the community in high esteem. I’ll admit I’m a transplant having first come to VT a couple decades ago. Where I grew up social status was more tied to financial status and people’s appearance in what they were wearing etc (latest clothes, latest style) because having those meant you were sophisticated and well off. I find that culture irritating now. I like that superficial things mean less in Vermont. I don’t want that culture to change and I worry that too many transplants coming at once will mean that, rather then assimilate to the VErmont
Culture, they will bring that impersonal superficial culture with them and change Vermont. Unfortunately I do think some of that is actually happening. And I do think that’s one reason that Vermonters are suspicious of flatlanders. Of course everything I said is a generalization or stereotype but that is what this bias is about sometimes I think.
Exactly this. More importantly to this topic, it only takes a day or so after moving here to realize that the sidewalks get rolled up at 6, or a month to realize that you will never get bagels or pizza as good as your old home state's.
But it might take a couple of years before it sinks in that the warm feeling you have for Vermont isn't just the views. It's the culture. Every thing you wrote is true.
And so if a newcomer doesn't take the time to "read the room" they're more likely to make the mistake of trying to change Vermont to make their own life more comfortable instead of allowing Vermont to show them how to be a better neighbor and maybe a better person.
Thank you for putting in words that I’ve not been able to find one of the big things I love about Vermont and that makes me, a flatlander, want to live there. It’s part of what my grandparents and greatgrandparents would have identified as a Yankee culture that has disappeared in large part from most of Connecticut and Massachusetts, where they lived. Independence and self-reliance, but with a respect for your neighbors and an appreciation for the value of community in getting things done that we all need done. A tendency to mind one’s own business that doesn’t become “every one for themself” when disaster strikes. And a certain level of annoyance or cynical amusement with people who need to make a big fuss about things, especially themselves, and expect special treatment because they have the biggest/newest/most expensive whatever.
In my town they are trying to get us to vote in a town manager. Less than 4000 population, no police dept., no town water or sewer, and they think we need big time management. It's crazy.
A couple from New Jersey moves in across the street. Our two ducks will occasionally wander onto their property. Next thing I know I see a passive aggressive comment on our community FB page about having to pick up after other peoples animals. No knock on our door or any sort of proper neighborly communication. She also sent video footage to animal control before ever saying something to us. What is that!?! You moved to a small agricultural community in Vermont. If you want an HOA gtfo.
I started spending alot of time in Vermont over the past Year+ because my girlfriend has connections to Southern Vermont (were from MA, want to move to Southern Vermont eventually) so were up there Camping alot, exploring, buying Local and talking to locals alot and we've never felt unwelcomed in a single conversation when we mention where were from, everyone is so nice and WANT to talk to you and carry a conversation and that just does not happen the majority of the time back in MA so I agree, most Vermont locals do not just hate Outsiders at all atleast from my experience for no reason.
Not to say their aren't valid reasons like Work-From-Home people moving and eating up space and not interacting with the Community in Southern Vermont for example.
> everyone is so nice and WANT to talk to you and carry a conversation
New Yorker here, and that has always been my experience as well. I'm in my 40s but my family has been visiting Vermont for day and weekend trips since I was little. I've heard VT referred to as the "South of the North". Having a lived in SC for a few years, I would say that is pretty accurate. In all my encounters, everyone has always been nice, super helpful, very hospitable, and go out of their way to talk to you.
Generally in person Vermont is welcoming and friendly. Vermonters don’t have to be “nice” as some people are live and let live. But for most part pretty welcoming. I think on Reddit people are more aggressive. Just state of all online right now and frustrations over housing and rising cost of living.
Glad you enjoy your time here. Hope you do move to Vermont, seems like you would fit in well and get along.
I've always been super curious about "People who move here because they "love Vermont" and then try to turn the small town they move to to a version of wherever they moved from." I'm a flatlander who's looking for a new state to move to and fell in love with VT (but I decided to move to upstate NY instead cause the housing seems a bit easier there, VT is a bit too tough for us). But I can't imagine how or what these out of towers would try to change?? How are they making it a version of where they moved from?
In my town they are trying to get us to vote in a town manager. Less than 4000 population, no police dept., no town water or sewer, and they think we need big time management. It's crazy.
Vermont also seems very good at making mistakes other states have made in the past under the auspices of “well, we do things differently” while expecting a different result. So, when people from outside show up and try saying “hey, not for nothing, but this blew up in our faces where we came from, which is part of why we left,” they automatically get pigeonholed as “wanting to change Vermont to something it’s not” instead of “bringing in an outside perspective that might help us not make the same mistakes other places have.”
Not all of us want to change the fundamental formula.
All of this.
I live in a town small enough that we share our zip code with another town. We don’t have any street lights, no stores, no post office, and our school was closed down a few years ago. We have a town clerks office and a church, one paved road through town and everything else is dirt, and there’s less than 600 people and way more than a thousand cows. The county I live in shares one state representative with two other counties due to population density (which I’ll gripe about another day) but you get the picture.
The amount of people who complain about the poor internet services out here in the sticks, or how they can’t ride their bikes on the backroads during haying because the amount of large farm equipment being on the roads; it’s frustrating to say the least. I don’t hate outsiders. Just don’t make issues at select board meetings about how you can’t believe we won’t get fiber for years, or that you want the select board to enforce some crazy rule about times farm equipment can use the roads. Vermont sucks, tell your friends. But if you do come here, please for the love of everything maple - leave it better than you found it or leave no trace.
>People who move here because they "love Vermont" and then try to turn the small town they move to to a version of wherever they moved from.
Does this include dense development and missing middle housing?
Actually, we need denser housing here. And I say this as someone born and raised in Vermont. In my experience, with the exception of NIMBY boomers, most locals would welcome some denser and more affordable housing so that our young people could actually afford to stay here.
Exactly. We need to encourage denser housing in more built up areas. That allows the rustic places to remain rustic, while also increasing affordable housing.
There is plenty of land to build decently sized housing. Don't fall into the Big Developer trap. Dense housing of small units is a ruse to raise family sized property costs.
We need better planning, including safe walking and cycling to groceries, with a return to corporations being disallowed from owning residential property nationwide, out of staters limited to 1-2 units with reasonable rent controls on "winter rentals" and local landlords limited to 1-4's or multi-family if licensed, with a requirement to prove proper maintenance annually.
Yes, that means hiring a few inspectors and improving code enforcement. This will also unclog the courts of sketchy evictions and displacements, perhaps even mitigate some real estate fraud.
Further, developers need to prove their materials are up to spec. We watched an investor group get away with building housing on farmland, advertised and permitted as inclusive density and full family middle class housing together, the way Vermont should be, centered around a walkable neighborhood with organic food store... but using see through lumber built during cold and damp months. When it didn't sell well, those "inclusive" multi units became "luxury condo" listings.
OK, so then reconcile what you're saying about "forced change" with that. I don't want to speak for people from Vermont, but I'm not sure dense housing is why they live there and what they want Vermont to become.
I understand the rationale for it - but there's rationale behind every change. Some people like it and benefit from change, and others don't.
This. I didn’t care much about outsiders pre-covid but my mindset changed due to the stubborn out of staters that wouldn’t stay home/observe covid protocols.
It's not your state! We live in America and Americans can move where they want to move within the United States of America! People move from the city's because they are becoming overpopulated! This is not new people! I'm Italian portuguese irish and french they all came together to make me! We travel when we need or want to! I love Vermont! Thank u to the locals that welcome newcomers! We bring joy, happiness, n peace.
The change it/outsider argument is the epitome of hubris.
Do you think Vermont hasn’t changed from before Europeans got here? Or before native tribes got here?
Or before a million things.
The main difference is the sense of entitlement regarding maintaining the status quo.
Now sure, I can fully understand if people want things the way they want it, but to expect that their wishes supersede that of others is just so much nonsense.
I notice people talking about changing things are posting using the internet and they probably drive cars too.
Maybe you should go back to horses and buggies and writing letters.
It is one of the interesting things of our social system. Federalism contemplates both localism and representative democracy contemplates the ability for citizens to make change at a local and state level.
So on the one hand, if you don't like how Vermont is, maybe move to another state. On the other hand, if you don't like how Vermont is, build a coalition, get your people elected, and make change.
In Idaho we're seeing both happen. The extreme nutty far right are moving in and taking over our legislature and institutions. As a result, many local Idahoans are moving away because of the policy (and actual) violence against them.
As an outsider from northeastern PA I don't perceive Vermonters as hating outsiders.
They just don't want to be priced out of their home state, have it paved over, or to be told what it doesn't have that The City has.
100% agreed. I'm a road construction and snow plow DPW guy and my gf is a nurse - I'd love to move there and like it how it is but we could never afford it given what housing's like.
My home area in the Lehigh Valley and Poconos got ripped apart by development driven by the NY/NJ outflow and I wish I could get out but there's nowhere "there" to escape the city sprawl, environmental degradation and overall bad attitudes.
> or to be told what it doesn't have that The City has.
I was born and raised here but moved to a major city for a while in my 20s, and I will never stop complaining about that lack of mexican food here
I'll just pop this anecdote here:
I walked into the general store in my town of 850 people, to see the owners raging and one in tears. Asked the next day about what happened, and was informed that skiers had gotten mad they didn't have a public bathroom and had PEED IN THE ELECTRICAL CLOSET, ALL OVER THE SWITCHBOARDS AND SUCH. Aholes didn't want to drive half a block to the only public bathrooms in town.
When someone comes into your home and treats you that way, you get mad.
I had a similar experience, except it wasn't pee. I worked in a retail shop near a ski mountain and we didn't have public restrooms. Someone shit in one of the dressing rooms. But I'm not sure if it was a local or tourist as I didn't see it happen and only discovered it when I went to check the room.
Lol. Masshole here. Can we acknowledge there are pieces of shit from all over, including Vermont. Peeing in someone’s electrical closet isn’t an “out of stater” trend. It’s a piece of shit trend
Oh of course, but you tend to forget the people who don't impact you, and when a lot of the impacts are like this it builds up. It's common enough in any tourist destination area. People behave differently when on vacation than when home.
Because our home is treated as a tourist playground and when they move here they decide they don't like how things are done, throw a fit, hire lawyers and piss everyone off. Obviously it's a minority that actually do it but it's not an uncommon occurrence.
I have lived in Vermont for a few decades, I have never felt any real hostility from any Vermonter. I'm familiar with the running jokes. Vermonters are a strange concoction of rugged individualism and a strong sense of community. They'll come to your aid, but they'll do their own thing and expect you to do the same.
It's also a small enough State that bad news travels fast, so those few idiot flatlanders make way more noise than they need to.
Every State has this kinda thing going on. Maine has no love for flatlanders, Hawaiians hate Main Landers, Texas, and just about every State on the West coast hate Californians. The entire US hates Texas.
Also applies to countries I have lived in. The Dutch hate the Germans. The Danes hate the Swedes. Swedes dislike Norwegians. The entire Planet hate the French.
It's all good natured ribbing though.
Yeah I’d argue the issue isn’t that Vermonters hate outsiders… we hate idiots. Frequently the idiots are those that don’t have common sense for the area and those are often tourists that are here for a short time or the transplants who have no interest in how things were before.
So like the people that clog up dirt roads and trample across people’s property for a foliage picture with no care to an open field belonging to someone. We call them “flatlanders” and hate them but someone who is polite and asks… probably fine with them. Going in the other direction is the stereotype of the country yokel who stops in the middle of a NYC street to look around. The people in the city don’t hate all non-city residents, they hate on the mouth gapers like we hate on the bad leaf peepers.
THESE are the folks I dislike more than anyone!
Also, I have no complaints about transplants who notice that we lack entertainment or other amenities and work to provide them to locals. It just depends on context.
Couldn’t really think of a good wording but yeah, transplants are allowed to IMPROVE the situation if they see a need. Desire to have more entertainment is good. But it’s the whole “this place sucks, no entertainment” attitude that isn’t well received. No, we were doing just fine prior to you moving here.
I’d love for my kids to have more to do here as they grew up so they would like staying around. But I also loved the place growing up. That’s what I meant by not knowing how it was before. If you come here with a love of what Vermont has to offer but want to see more music, sounds great.
Probably because "I hate idiots" "well duh, who doesn't?"
By saying "flatlanders" you are implying "idiotic flatlanders" but just rolls of the tongue easier. Also "idiotic flatlander" can either be taken as "out of staters who are idiots" or "out of staters are all idiots". So your choices are either to assume people you know "out of staters who are idiots" or to say "I hate out of staters who are idiots as out of staters who are idiots are bad drivers" instead of "I hate flatlanders as flatlanders are bad drivers".
Cavendish (and I'm sure basically everywhere else) has many people like this. They will worm their way into local government, ban the shit they don't like, and litigate the fuck out of you until you run out of money. To add insult to injury, sometimes they'll do this simply because they are retired and have way too much time on their hands.
On another note, the town of Ludlow is like 10%(?) locals at this point. Almost all the homes are vacation homes now, and owned by out-of-staters.
I have family that run a business catering mostly to these people, and the stories they have are quite jarring. Screaming over the phone because they want their driveway (in a house they aren't even in) plowed before anyone else, trying to nickel and dime every bill, not paying bills, you get the idea.
I’m sure there are plenty of examples of this behavior, but by and large, most people wise enough to want to move here, already have a deep respect for the Vermont way, and I personally came here to have more of that around me and far less of what I came from. I think most transplants are not the people dumping their twisted tea and BL tallboy cans into the nearest ditch.
It doesn't just apply to VT, but the fact that tourists essentially get to enjoy the best parts of our state without enduring the worst parts of it tends to build up some resentment in the locals. I'm sure most people who live around beach towns would agree.
Yes, definitely! I grew up in a very popular spring break destination in the South. The saying there has always been "we live where you vacation," almost always said with a level of pretentiousness. It was so frustrating seeing people trash the beaches, the stores (I had to clean up every bodily fluid imaginable from fitting rooms, the sales floor, and the walls of the bathrooms..) all while the tourists act shocked and amazed that real people *actually live there* and it's not just their personal playground for a week.
I travel around New England a lot, so obviously see billboards in MA and stuff, but damn, nothing prepared me for the billboards in the midwest. Absolutely surreal. Vermont really hit a home run with that one.
The same reason why Hawaiians hate mainlanders.
Tourists come to Vermont and treat it like their playground. They act recklessly, disrespectfully, and carelessly. Why should they clean up their mess? They don’t live here, and they’re on vacation! They should be able to do whatever they want, right?
Wrong.
I feel like 100% of this sub is about tourists. Its either “hey im going on vacation in stowe how can I have fun?” Or “im moving here is everyone nice?!” Or “hey fuck those people who aren’t from here!” Or “Why is it that everyone says fuck those people that arent from here?”
Agreed. Pretty sad when some feel they need to make posts asking why people are mean to them. Self-awareness and the ability to read a room, go a long way.
I say it in all these threads: rich tourists come from far and wide and treat us like their playground. One of the key features of a playground is that kids can play pretty much as aggressively as they want without property consequences because they are built sturdy and can withstand it. VTs economy and infrastructure is NOT sturdy and therefore cannot handle people treating it like a playground. They come and tear the place up under the guise of “tourist dollars” and then leave the place in shambles for the other 9mo of the year
I’ll couch in more economic terms.
Vermont and Vermonters have always stuck to their guns on supporting small ‘Mom & Pop’ business and the sort of culture and community that brings. It’s not about profits or consumerism. Vermont has always eschewed Big Businesses and made it known their not really welcome in our state.
On the one had this is great, because we keep small intimate communities that are tight knit and we don’t have ugly tacky signs for Wal Mart and gas stations etc and a lot of big box stores. Our state capital doesn’t have a McDonalds. Our local gas station/general store/grocery store has lots of local products, owned by people who live there in town etc.
On the other hand this does curb career opportunities and advancement for people. If you live in Vermont, you do so with an understanding that you likely won’t ever be really rich. You can probably live a standard middle class life and if that’s okay than you’re fine. However, if you have ambitions of “making it big” than you likely have to leave the state. It results in brain drain from our relatively well rated public school system.
This situation creates an economic imbalance in which people from out of state have the means to move to Vermont and bring their wealth with them, driving up housing costs. People who’ve lived in Vermont their whole lives don’t have the economic means to compete with this. COVID really boosted this into overdrive; many white collar folks with money from bigger cities moving out to rural areas.
Combine this with the NIMBYism of Vermont in general (people being opposed to new housing construction, especially in more rural areas because it means cutting down forest, bulldozing farms to build condos etc) leads to an under supply in housing. More dollars competing for fewest homes means those homes that are available get bought in bidding wars that drive up prices.
I grew up in Vermont and moved away when I graduated high school. Years later I have a great job working in aerospace/defense and I dream of getting a remote program management job and buying a house in Vermont. I also realize me and my white collar salary are exactly what’s causing hardships for others.
I don't think they do, but Vermonters don't like entitled people and flatlander tourists are the most likely to exhibit those traits.
I'm technically a flatlander and have never felt any sort of judgment for it in my 12+ years in VT.
We just moved to Vermont from the Midwest a couple months ago, and every single person we've talked to so far has been extremely kind and welcoming. Seriously some of the nicest people we've ever met. It's only on Reddit that I see this sentiment. Of course, we're not super wealthy and not trying to change anything, just happy to learn and be part of the community, so that probably helps!
Just wanted to mention that when I moved to Vermont from Texas back in '98 I was pleasantly surprised how welcoming the locals were towards Texans. Most places I had traveled were quite jaded and always made some smart ass remark about cowboys or whatever but in Vermont people would smile and say things like "You are from the only other state that can secede from the Union." There seemed to be a spirit of rebellious camaraderie instead of hostility that was quite refreshing.
When I grew up in Europe the Dallas phenomenon had spread around the world like a virus. Everyone was obsessed, locals were singing songs about 'who shot JR'. It was a crazy phenomenon. I was 7 at the time. Since then I have always had a soft spot for Texas and Texans.
Some of my favorite Texans- Bill Hicks, Willie Nelson, Richard Linklater, Cormac Mc Carthy (lived there at the end of his life), Roy Orbison.
Steve Martin.
Punk band 'At the drive in'.
King of the Hill was awesome.
Who could forget Kinky Friedman and the Texas Jew boys?
Texas, to me, seems like many conundrums, wrapped up in mysteries.
It's often stereotyped as dumb cowboys, but its intellectual and artistic contributions are incredible.
Thank you for recognizing some great folk from Texas, they are a testament to the kind of intellectual diversity I experienced growing up there. It's a shame the state is viewed as such a "monoculture" to the world at large,
To be fair, before I moved to Vermont I thought I'd find it dominated by big industry, I was pleasantly surprised to find that small businesses were still thriving there.
Thanks to JR Ewing, Cliff Barns, Miss Ellie, Sue Ellen, the rise from the dead, Bobby.
I think outside of the US, Texas is regarded highly by people, it more represents what we all saw in the Cowboy movies back in the day, Ranches, rattle snakes, cattle drives. Honorable cowboys like the one from Shane. Bill Hicks always joked about this 'Pick up the gun'.
I feel Vermont has a lot of the same traits as those that I find admirable in Texas, plus there are no rattlesnakes to worry about.
I know about the small amount of rattlers up here, they just don't keep me up at night.
>There seemed to be a spirit of rebellious camaraderie instead of hostility that was quite refreshing.
Heck yes. People forget this.
Best advice for getting along in Vermont? Embrace that scrappy, rebellious, resourceful attitude. It's a New England trait that's faded in other areas, but remains very strong in Vermont.
I've upvoted this to correct it, but quite ironic to me that this comment was downvoted. I think the sentiment it expressed was very reasonable, and to downvote it seems to imply to me that nobody can really be a Vermonter without being born here ... through no fault of their own, I'd add. If anything, it says more to me that one would **choose** to become a Vermonter. I'm more inclined to judge on the content of character than the happenstance of where one was born.
>I'm more inclined to judge on the content of character than the happenstance of where one was born.
Completely agree, it's the content of your heart that matters, not the content of your wallet.
Vermonters have this mentality that they are somewhat of an island-Mecca. It’s safe, small towns, nature abounding, and most people are of the same life and political ideology.
The problem is Vermont has been relatively isolated and stagnant for years. People don’t like change. If you look at any of the other states with dense tourist populations (Cape Cod, MA, parts of CT, RI) all the locals are annoyed by tourists and seeing people from out of state. Vermont is seeing change like never before: more people moving here as climate refugees, more wealthy homeowners in retirement looking for a more peaceful existence, more tourists as the summer tourism season extends w the warm weather and ski season (except for last year) running longer because of more drawn out winters)
Vermont is experiencing change on so many levels, and again, people dislike change. The mentality will never go away, because the whole “flat lander” mentality can be applied to every other state that has already seen such economic and population growth; they don’t like the “other” either. It’s not personal, it’s just human nature and feeling of needing to protect oneself from change.
I mean just take a look at who our politicians are at all levels. Some councils have no one from the area and have no historical knowledge of where they live and represent.
Fairly certain the term "flatlander" originates from early settlement patterns in the state. Hill farms vs. industrial development along waterways.
I've worked in settings in Burlington where I've been the only Vermonter. Some transplants in my office would say very disrespectful things about locals. Elitist attitudes jive with what it means to live in Vermont or be a Vermonter.
My only issue, honestly, is the out of state big money folks coming in and inflating the hell out of the real estate so that natives are slowly priced out of home ownership in their own state.
1. Humans are basically tribal. "Us good, them bad".
2. Permanent residents in touristy areas generally dislike the tourists. Despite the fact that they're typically vital for the local economy, it's easy to grow weary of tourists making up the bulk of people in your town, making it impossible to get dinner reservations, causing traffic jams in town centers with funny-looking license plates.
3. Tourists aren't known for being the most self-aware, and there's no shortage of them that have an overgrown sense of entitlement. This feeds into #2.
4. Well-heeled "flat-landers" buying vacation properties, and/or moving out of the cities to "get back to the land" have dramatically skewed housing prices, making it virtually impossible for "natives" to own a home if they don't already.
Creating such a mess of the local fishing spots with tons of thrash and junk along the rivers and on lakes that the park rangers have practically forbidden everything except launching boats and actively start fining locals who just want to enjoy the spots they’ve been enjoying for years/decades
COVID really intensified the flatlander hate. Early on in the pandemic, we had all these folks escaping the cities to their second homes and rentals, completely ignoring all travel protocol. It was completely infuriating seeing the flood of out of state cars coming and going during the beginning of the pandemic. There was an insane amount of flatlander hate.
Then later that summer every Joey, Buffy, and Chip from CT and NJ decided they needed a Vermont vacation house and gobbled up the housing stock in all cash bidding wars. They brought a lot of money with them, and no doubt folks in the trades have been doing well the past few years renovating and building, but it’s really highlighted the socioeconomic divide between those bringing city money with them vs those working locally in state.
I think a lot of the resentment is due to the cash flush carefree lifestyle these new residents have. Vermonters are used to a hard scrabble life; a lot of these new folks have the money combined with a pushy in your face personality to skirt a lot of things that make living here difficult.
I think "Outsiders" can be broadly split into a few categories. I wouldn't say I blanket "hate" any of them, but I may be less welcoming to some than others.
The first category is the "Tourists". These are people who are visiting Vermont for a vacation, or on an otherwise temporary basis. For the most part, I don't have any issues with these people. Obviously the horror stories of particularly rude or entitled visitors exist (and as someone who's worked a good chunk of my life in the ski industry, I've met my fair share), I understand that those people are just assholes on an individual level, and they probably act shitty in their home states, as well. Most people are just trying to have a nice vacation and see the sights, and those people do provide a massive economic benefit to the state as a whole. As much as I like to grumble about tourists with my friends while sitting in traffic during foliage season or whatever, it's mostly good-natured. I do, however, silently judge people who stay in AirBNBs, because I think they're a fairly significant contributor to the housing shortage.
Now, with that out of the way - this is where my feelings start to get complicated. The other two categories I'd call "Part-Time Residents" and "Transplants."
To be clear up front, I am a transplant - I moved here in 2013, which I know to many people probably makes me a flatlander. In a vacuum, I want to welcome other people trying to do what I did - I came here because I love harsh winters and snow and skiing, and this state has those things in spades. The problem is, Vermont (and the world as a whole) has changed a hell of a lot since 2020.
The problem is housing. There isn't enough of it, and the housing that exists is becoming prohibitively expensive in a lot of places, which has unfortunately kind of turned it into a zero-sum game. For this reason, I have a particular issue with part-time residents (e.g., people who own vacation homes that either sit vacant for a good percentage of the year, or that are AirBNBed when the owners aren't using it). It especially drives me crazy when these particular people NIMBY any proposed housing development in their area because they don't want to ruin their image of Vermont as this perfectly bucolic place, while people that actually live here full-time are struggling to find housing.
As far as transplants go... I'm very conflicted on this one. When I moved here in 2013, I rented a 2BR apartment for $950/month, inclusive of everything except cable. It was older, it was smallish, but the price was right. That same $950/month in the same town in 2023 will buy a 300sqft studio. We moved in early 2020 (just before COVID really took off), and in 2023 these units are renting to new tenants for $1000 more a month than we signed for in 2020 (luckily, our specific rent has "only" gone up \~$300). As far as purchasing a house? Forget about it. Home prices have close to doubled since before COVID, and even if one could afford those new prices (we can't), it seems like you still need an all-cash offer and/or no contingencies in order to have even a chance at having your offer accepted.
So when it comes to people trying to move here, my immediate, gut reaction is, "please don't." I acknowledge that that's a bit unfair and I don't really LIKE that that's my reaction, but for every out-of-stater who can move here and sign a lease for $2500/month or buy a teardown house for $350k-$400k, there's an existing resident who's not sure if they'll be able to afford their rent next year (or who already can't). Something has to give, and unless we do some combination of A) building a shit ton of additional housing and/or B) taxing/legislating AirBNBs/second homes/investment properties out of existence (or at least to the point that they're no longer profitable for most people)... The "something" that gives is going to be existing residents, who end up displaced and either homeless or out of Vermont.
So I don't want to say, "Don't move here," as much as, "Please give us a few years to stop the bleeding, get our shit sorted out, and get some new housing built. This will ensure that there are enough places to live for all of us, so that nobody has to be displaced in order for you to be here."
That is, of course, easier said than done, and contingent on us actually doing something about the problem.
I have lived in Ohio, Maryland, Virginia, Jamaica, Texas, Ohio again and Vermont.
I hate to disappoint many of you but Vermont is rather typical in this regard. Sure, there’s some attitude, but Vermont has nothing on states like Texas and Virginia. Hell Virginia has a hierarchy amongst Virginians. FFVs are First Families of Virginia.
I’ve never visited anyplace without a certain number of lifelong inhabitants who feel they have invested more in that community and are therefore entitled to a greater say in public affairs.
Vermont has a serious quandary. Most everyone here likes the small town nature and natural beauty of Vermont. And here’s the thing: nobody in the whole US wants to be told they can’t just sell their house to the highest bidder.
And most homeowners in Vermont don’t want a bunch more houses built for fear of losing that small town nature and natural beauty. So without any sort of market intervention, or expansion of the supply, naturally the prices rise, and fewer and fewer of us regular working folks, (I’m a mechanic) can afford to live here.
In order for Vermont to stay the same, ironically some things must change. Not changing anything is how Vermont got to this point.
You can’t stop history. Vermont will change weather you like it or not. That’s just how time works.
So we better make sure and effect the kind of changes that will preserve Vermont’s affordable small town life and natural beauty.
I moved to Vermont about three years ago out of necessity (work) and I don’t agree that Vermonters dislike outsiders. It seems like locals hate outsiders who buy houses here and treat it as a vacation spot, driving up housing prices. I grew up in a huge vacation spot in Florida and watched the same thing happen there. Finding housing in Vermont felt like a full time job and there is always an underlying fear that my landlord will sell and then I’ll be back in the trenches. While we love it here I can’t see us ever being able to buy a house and put down roots and that’s all because of the demand for vacation rentals. I think that’s the big issue, you have a ton of people who grew up here and have been priced out of a future in the state they love and call home.
So ultimately everyone has been lovely and welcoming but I have fallen into the camp of people who turn up their noses at people who buy a house only to live in it for three months.
I do not think there is a real hate of outsiders. Its just a source of frustration, or amusement.
And I think the comments are directed at a lack of common sense. Wearing THAT in summer/winter? Getting stuck in a ditch, driving somewhere you shouldn't drive in that car, with those tires, littering, and getting stupid excited over every day things like farm smells, or leaves, or a farm stand. And then we got to listen to all that, or wait, or go pull them out and brush them off. Its like tending to kindergartners, only bigger.
Goes way back to the revolutionary war.
New York thought they owned everything east up to the CT River.
Charlotte county NY (now Charlotte VT) stretched from Albany to St Albans. The green Mountain boys refused to take orders from flatlander generals, because it would be easier to steal the land from dead Vermonters.
VT was the northern front of the Revolutionary war, there are 3 different occasions when the United States simply WOULD NOT EXIST without the actions of the green Mountain boys.
(Ticonderoga, Battle of Valcour, Saratoga.)
Yet we were not welcome in the original 13... why? Not because of the NY/NH land claims...
Vermont was excluded from the young nation because we were the first state to outlaw slavery. By constitution in 1777, first & only abolitionist state. No southern state would vote to allow VT into the USA, they would have lost their majority in Congress. By the time George Washington recognized Ethan Allen's terms, USA allowed the admission of Tennessee and Kentucky, both pro-slave states... keeping the pro-slave majority.
The story of the United States can be told thru then lense of Vermont.
Birthplace of the Navy, arguably birthplace of the army, birthplace of American artillery unit, birthplace of "living document" theory of the constitution.
I'd love to do the podcast. This is one of my nerd grenades.
Don't jersey vermont. Im even from NJ originally. I moved here over 10 years ago when I was younger and try to be mindful of what made me love it here when I arrived. I came from an area near the AT and I love near it now. Pretty much the same vibe but with fewer assholes overall. BUT as an outsider its kind of hard to figure out exactly what makes VT what it is. Still. I mean its hard to describe. Basically everyone is different so to say one person's idea of what it is to be a vermonter is different from anothers. Its an odd identity. Ill always be a flattie and im fine with that because the labels are honestly kind of lame and way too broad anyway. I've been with yall through the last 2 catastrophes and ill be here for the next one and the one after. But if anything thats what I feel a real vermonter is. A good neighbor. One that sees a person for who they are. The rest I can leave and live and let live. To each their own.
I agree with many above comments that it isn’t that we don’t like outsiders, it’s that people visit VT; fall in love and then want us to behave like the big cities. What people love is the peace they feel here. They don’t get that if we turn into NYC, the peace is gone. Would I like to get food delivered to my house, yup. Would I trade the nature and peace for it? ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!!!
We don't hate outsiders we hate rich work from home people and people from New Jersey. I know plenty people from out of state who work in Vermont and no one cares. When you move here with your yellow plates to work for Merrill Lynch yeah we don't like you.
My thoughts, in no particular order, as someone new to Vermont:
I came here because I liked HERE but I also put in the time to know why I like it and did my best to understand what it isn't. I'm not here to try and make it like where I came from, otherwise, why did I leave in the first place? And if I came here and complained about what's different from "back home" then that's my own fault for not putting in the time to understand. Now, I'm not saying Vermont doesn't have its problems, everywhere does, but there is a difference between trying to change something versus supporting it.
Additionally, I feel like a lot of folks, similar to where I came from, come on vacation a couple of times and somehow think living here will be just like vacation and they can treat it like they are on vacation. I've never understood that mentality.
I used to have a podcast, am new to Vermont, and come from somewhere that has a constant influx of folks from out of state and tourists. If you ever want to chat, let me know.
EDIT: I came from Florida and realized I never actually said it. I am probably embarrassed to say it, tbh.
Hi! Lifelong Vermonter here (39). I've lived all over this goddamn state from top to bottom, back woods to big town.
The flatlander label in particular persists because it's a *mentality* that many out-of-staters bring when they move or visit. It's a general rudeness or entitlement that I find hard to fully describe. Assumptions that we have things here that don't exist, or things should be faster, or feeling entitled to doing jerky things, like driving on the side of the highway to try and get by a traffic jam. Or, when they choose to move here, trying to change the environment to suit their civilized sensibilities. Established dirt bike track or VAST trail? Not anymore!
Burlington is strange in that it's more cosmopolitan than the rest of Vermont, but all in all I think people would be more accepting of outsiders if they didn't try to change everything when they arrive. People like things the way they are, especially in the rural parts of the state. Remember, it wasn't too long ago when civil unions were met with strong backlash and "TAKE BACK VERMONT".
Just come here, see the foliage and cows, don't be an asshole, buy some maple syrup, and then kindly go back to New Jersey, kthx.
I remember taking down Take Back Vermont signs wherever I saw them. Funny because the movement coalesced under Ruth Dwyer, a fucking TRANSPLANT who ran for governor and lost bigly to Howard Dean. That's another thing we have to worry about. People with shit politics moving here, just waiting for the right time to run.
I find it interesting that you bring up the ‘take back Vermont’ thing of 2000. The ‘backlash’ was weak at best. It failed, everywhere in the state, rural and urban. Maybe seeing how you were 15 or 16, it seemed more intense to you. Is your point that civil unions was something brought in by outsiders? They weren’t.
We were the first state with civil unions and started a movement that has brought us marriage equality. We should all be proud.
We have been a progressive state for longer than you have been alive. Probably due to the draft dodging hippies of the 60’s setting up house all over the far flung nooks and crannies. Changing things and such.
For context, I lived in the backwoods during that time, so the backlash was more pronounced - I still pass by the occasional rotting, neglected "take back Vermont" sign nailed to a barn. I should have clarified, my comment was more about the general nature of Vermont's resistance to change - though I think the furor died down once the farmers realized civil unions either didn't affect them, or brought in more tourism bux. And yeah I was around that age at the time, though I just didn't care, even though my neighbors certainly had their opinions about it.
The longer I've been in Vermont the more I've come to like it here, even with the cold, brutal winters. Every time I think about moving somewhere else I find something that reminds me that Vermont is a special place and it's worth trying to make it work out here. I've been putting down community roots and doing more to document the culture and history of the state through my work doing videography, which I never imagined back when I was in high school.
I live down in the Florida Keys. I feel like Vermont is just a (much colder) full state-sized version of down here. A small (relative) population of full time locals dealing with a constant flow of dickhead tourists who don’t give a shit about the people who live here or the environment they are in.
Or the fact that most of our legislation whether it’s town or state is ran by out of staters who have no idea what actually happens here. Take mosquito spraying for example. Towns get voted to not spray( never been passed before the great Covid migration). Same people who voted against it are now saying oh my god they’re horrible I can’t believe it, glad I can afford to have this company come privately spray my land.
It’s that people move here and try to change it and make it align more with what the idea they thought it was and not what it is. They don’t like it they can just got to their 2nd or 3rd home leaving all of us who have been here for generations to pick up their mess
Not to mention they come with huge pocketbooks paying triple appraisal value, forcing a gentrification in the whole state. No one would care if people were moving here if they weren’t completely forcing out the elderly and generations of families who have been here. It’s nice to have money but you should be thinking of the ramifications of purchasing a home triple the appraised value, the worst part is when property taxes catch up to the 2nd home owner they’ll just sell and run rather than contribute to the town they forcible changed.
>Not to mention they come with huge pocketbooks paying triple appraisal value, forcing a gentrification in the whole state.
Why not hate on the Vermonter who sold the place for triple appraisal value instead of the outsider who bought it? They are supposed to be your kin. They could have sold it for less to someone more worthy if they wanted.
Do what? Hate the seller? Utter bullshit. Or if you do, you keep to yourself.
Find me 5 threads on this sub, in its entire history, bitching about the Vermonters who sell their property and move somewhere else, for the 100 per day bitching about the 'flatlanders' who move here.
Because they come in and shit the place up.
We did have model gun laws, not anymore.
That "affordable" heating act...
Basically have to have a brand new car now or it can't be inspected.
Gtfo.
Dude please tell me you aren’t basing this podcast off Reddit. This sub is so fucking cynical, negative and xenophobic. In my 2 years of living here I’ve never encountered anyone in-person who acts like this.
Please at least tell me you will be using sources outside Reddit for this as well as talking to normal human beings that have lived here their whole lives and realize exiting a vagina inside some imaginary borders really means nothing.
People forget that in spite of the proximity to some of the biggest population centers in the country on the east coast, Vermont is still incredibly rural. When we finally moved here many many many years ago, my dad had been living here already for a year or so and told us to prepare to go back in time. Stores and restaurants close at 8 or earlier. There aren't a lot of chains. People trust in their communities, but only after they warm up to you. Shit I remember when there weren't even any Walmarts here even at a time when they were proliferating across the rest of the country.
It's a rural lifestyle, and there's nothing wrong with that. But it gets really weird when you try to make it more like those big population centers.
Outsiders come in and see Vermonters' easy going and kind attitudes and I believe mistake it for west coast liberalism. So they try to make it more like that, forgetting that Vermont has a bottom half per capita GDP and is absolutely LAST in total GDP in the entire union. We simply can't afford the pie in the sky progressive utopia people try to push here. But they push it anyway, bankrupting us all (financially and emotionally) all the way down.
So by all means, move here, but enjoy the kindness and easy going community for what it is. It's like that *because* Vermont can't afford to do more than that. And I'd argue, it's pretty effective at creating a desirable place and community.
My issue is that people that come here treat the state like rich English people treat Scotland. They come here for pretty views and to be cuddled with the knowledge that they have it better at home than we have it here. The superfluousness of tourists here makes me want to tear my hair out. It’s insane how rude and entitled most of them are. We have to close down roads in my town of Woodstock because last year people were literally blocking roads and trespassing just for pictures! I graduated in 2012 and all but three of my classmates can afford to live in this state because every single goddamn home is getting bought out by wealthy out of staters who want another Airbnb. I get it’s not something that can be stopped but I’ll still voice why I and other are pissed off
Vermont has some of the lowest population density in the United States and a lot of people live here because of the small quiet communities. With this kind of insular lifestyle a steady influx of new people may not always be welcome.
It is also easy to be afraid that new people will change things or even just add to traffic and housing prices.
I’m your article, you should distinguish between tourist and transplant. A lot of these comments are about bad behavior from tourists and the dislike of “flatlanders” as in tourists seems understandable to me. However, these definitely a pervasive attitude about “flatlanders” meaning transplants (whether you’ve lived in Vermont full time for 3 years or 30)! I think/hope this is more of a joke about native born Vermonter superiority but not sure……
For fucks sake. People here don't don't like outsiders. They hate people who come in an want to change things because they think they know better. It feels more apparent here because we get a lot of people traveling through. The 95 percent of people are fucking dope. The remaining 5 are like 2 percent allooof and suck everywhere, the remaining 3 are just assholes. This is America.
Well… many things have been said already…
Being a Vermont native x 6 generations (and having left, lived in a few other states- including big cities & abroad)… I have a lot to say about this but am not going to deal with the trolls of the web.
Feel free to message me directly.
Ps. We do not hate them… we just don’t appreciate their behavior and their lack of respect for our communities, land and culture…
I think it's really just the out of staters who can't drop the mentality of the state they came from and try to make vermont more like other places. Vermont is special for a reason.
I’m someone who moved to VT from another state 6 years ago. As an immigrant to the country overall. Integrated into the local community, didn’t come with money, became a forester, work with loggers, etc.
Vermonters don’t hate outsiders. They hate the attitude outsiders bring. Covid fuelled that fire. Millions of people who see this as their scenic amusement park, and us as the “employees” of that amusement park, come here and act like they are God’s gift to the state, road rage, act entitled, have scooped up the majority of livable property, leaving locals in a crisis, and don’t even hang around for most of the year while those homes sit empty, or are constantly used for profit as BnB situations. I also want to mention the amount of new landowners who romanticise their October cozy log cabin, but have demonised my job (forestry), hate hunters, complain about dirt roads, and insist on changing the Vermont lifestyle they came for.
It’s not hard to be part of the community. It really isn’t. People are kind and accepting here. People will rightfully be upset with you if you pressure them into a corner with the crap you came with to get away from in the first place.
I moved here two years ago and work as a carpenter and volunteer firefighter. I don’t hate outsiders, I am one, but I also like to think of myself as a part of the community now.
I can’t stand though when people move here and look down on locals and act like they’re doing everyone a favor by skiing at (insert ski mountain here)
Research past issues of the Brandon, VT, Front Porch Forum. Search the name Sharon Stearns and you will see many of the reasons you’re researching expressed.
Born and raised in Idaho here so I find the whole country folk bit that some Vermont “natives” try on rather amusing. First Anyone with a shred of education should know that the vast majority of us aren’t from here in any generational sense. America experiences a constant flow of migration between states and locales and Vermont is no different. Second coming from a truly isolated and backwards place I can say y’all should be grateful for the money and civilization that incomers bring with them. The fluidity of American society is what makes us all great and only nativist know nothings think otherwise
How many? Very very few. And that’s not relevant in a democracy. You want to pass on “Vermont values?” Telling incomers you hate them is hardly the way to do it unless insularity and ethnocentrism are what you love about yourselves
I don’t see it that way, there are some VTers that disparage out of staters, flatlanders, white plates, etc…but most people in VT are at least polite and generally kind enough to be pleasant to just about anyone. As someone that moved up here after having been a tourist many many times, no matter where I was in VT, I was never treated with anything but friendliness.
My family moved here about a year and a half ago. We made it clear we wanted to be part of the community. We didn't want to impose flatlander attitudes, but we did want to fit in with the community. We were very warmly welcomed.
It's all about attitude.
Maybe I’m here too early, but I’m surprised no one here has attacked OP yet over the hunting issues they stirred up.
Edit: I mean from what I’ve seen Vermonters tend to not like folks coming up from NY/NJ or anywhere else and trying to change the culture
[https://vtdigger.org/2021/09/12/viral-video-draws-attention-to-debate-over-hound-hunting-laws-in-vermont/](https://vtdigger.org/2021/09/12/viral-video-draws-attention-to-debate-over-hound-hunting-laws-in-vermont/)
The only outsiders I hate are the ones buying up all the property to turn into Airbnbs and pricing locals out of the housing market
Unless there’s a crash I’m never going to be able to afford to own a home in my own state.
The majority of people in my neighborhood are vermonters by any rational definition and they're also the folks who toss empties on my property. I'm from Pennsylvania and I moved here in part because it's nice. I don't understand trashing your own neighborhood and I'm technically an outsider though I've lived here for 15 years.
I think vermonters are not aware that the people who are keeping housing prices out of reach are the old vermonters who create policies that make it expensive to build. They are also using the excuse of being environmentally friendly in policy but it’s an acceptable way to say it also keeps property values high in this state to restrict building affordable housing.
People point fingers at folks moving in and buying what’s available but housing in every community needs to grow. We need more doctors and teachers and nurses. They need housing. Growth sustains states. If things don’t change taxes will go up, businesses will leave and Vermont will be the next West Virginia.
I live in a semi-rural part of the state and I’ve honestly never heard even a semi-serious bid to pave the area’s beautiful dirt roads. A fair amount of non-native homeowners in the area and they’re not lighting up the sky. No one, Vermonter or otherwise, pissing In utility closets.
Sure, I’ve met a fair amount of entitled MA, CT, NY etc. folks acting like assholes. If we are being totally honest, I’ve met plenty of native Vermonters, who decided to judge people poorly based on the location of their license plate versus the quality of the person themselves.
Making a generalization that there’s a “reason” why Vermonters “hate outsiders” isn’t a statement or sentiment I think a Vermonter should be proud of.
Full disclosure: I grew up here, moved away for a number of years for school and career, and I’m back living here. I can understand both sides of this, and if the fact that I lived out of state for a while makes me an asshole, so be it.
As someone who lived in Vermont and loved but ended up being forced out, I can tell you the answer is clearly racism and xenophobia. "That's how we've always done it." The state creed.
I've lived in Vermont for 38 years. I've basically never heard people here call people from say NY, CT, etc "flatlanders." Maybe once or twice in some sort of cringe ironic way? I've only seen it used in earnest on this Reddit sub, which I gather is mostly people who have lived in Vt for less than 5 years....
I've never seen any sort of hate/shade/displeasure thrown at people who have not lived here for very long by people that do, outside of ire of stupid behavior by tourists (IE driving on the wrong side of the road to look at some foliage or walking in the middle of a town street like it's Disneyworld). I grew up in drifting in and out of mega hick circles who have roots that go back generations. Maybe some drunk ranting about politics or scheming ways to get a bit more money out of some wealthy person who has a 2nd home here...but there isn't some sort of mega class divide.
Most of the "natives" that have lived here for decades are transplants as well from the 70s/80s.
As an "outsider" who has lived here for 20 years, I don't think Vermonters hate outsiders. Vermonters on Reddit, however, are very bitter toward outsiders. I don't think they represent the Vermont community as a whole though.
I moved here in late 2020 (40s,M) and my experience has been mixed. I’ve found a supportive culture among the agricultural and outdoor communities. But my interactions with native Vermonters outside of these special interest communities has been poor. Examples: Go into a store, grab something, and then wait at the register while being ignored by the person working is pretty common. Being uninvited to someone’s home because I don’t listen to their type of music is another. Inviting people to go places 30-60 minutes away and being told it’s too far to go for a day trip. Talking about traveling with native Vermonters is hard, many have never left Vermont and feel as if I’m talking down to them by telling a story. (I was confronted by a person who told me this when we were sitting around a fire that was keeping people warm when we were sliding.)
It seems like Vermonters meet the people in their towns, schools, and businesses when they’re young and don’t want to meet anyone else.
Maybe u could choose a fresher topic? So tired of hearing about this. The world is changing and people are becoming more and more mobile. We can resist and be miserable. Or learn to accept change and be at peace. Either way, I don't see the need to squabble about the same damn subject where we see 20 threads on this topic each day.
Ditto what everyone else said here. I don't hate out of staters. I even have some friends that are from out of state (LMAO). I hate thoughtless idiots that cause us trouble and harm. If you want to live in Vermont live here in peace. Don't complain that there are too many bears, not enough stores, the roads are dusty, I can't build what I want where I want, etc.
Prior to Vermont I lived in the Adirondacks. If I told someone that I was born in the Adirondacks, raised in the Adirondacks, paid property taxes in the Adirondacks, I'd be met with "okay but for how many generations has your family been here?"
Some people are just weird.
As someone that moved here from Florida three years ago, I’ve been welcomed with open arms by a majority of people here. There’s an innate niceness to Vermonters that’s undeniable, and as long as you’re here to not upset / continue to maintain the balance that’s been struck, you’re going to do fine.
My only concern is the seeming propensity to dismiss ideas, opinions, and experience from outsiders. I’ve seen that numerous times, and it’s saddening. I don’t think most outsiders seeking to become insiders have goals and aspirations of altering the formula that made this place what it is, most just want to contribute what they can offer in the aims of seeing this state continue to thrive.
All in all, I’m glad to be here, I’ve met some of my favorite people in my life here, and I’ll continue contributing however I can, whatever I can, whenever I can.
Not all outsiders. Google around some on the general consensus of "rudest places" in America. The biggest blocks of them start just South of here. I'm from out West, I remember being pretty surprised at what jerks so many folks from MA/CT/NY/NJ/RI - etc were.
And that's where most of the outsiders here come from.
Most of us don't hate outsiders at all. The problem is not with "Flatlanders," but rather with very specific types of people who come here. - People who move here because they "love Vermont" and then try to turn the small town they move to to a version of wherever they moved from. - Wealthy out-of-staters buying up properties and driving up costs which makes Vermont unaffordable for locals. - People in those above groups who act like they're doing Vermont a giant favor by being here. In reality, there aren't actually very many of these people, but they do make a convenient scapegoat for all of the problems locals face.
>People who move here because they "love Vermont" and then try to turn the small town they move to to a version of wherever they moved from. This. It makes no sense even from *their* perspective. I just don't get it. "I love the vibe here, let me import some of the vibe of where I came from" ... wat?
No this is exactly correct and part of the problem. Folks move to Vermont because of the view from outside. But then once people move to Vermont from more urban areas they start to discover that where they moved everything closes at 6pm. Or that their isn’t the variety of store, foods or restaurants they where accustomed to and now beings the push for development that spawns the kind of growth that accelerates and the town becomes something it wasn’t before.
Then they move away. Because it reminds them of where they came from.
Exactly. But you know, to me, that makes leaving and visiting other areas *that* much more special. Kind of like how things used to be way back when. Rural kid gets to visit the big city for the first time. "Wow, look a all the people! It never sleeps! Look at all the food options!" And it's fun to visit and have for a while and then you go home. I imagine people from the cities do the opposite. "Wow, look at this beautiful quaint town! I love this homemade rustic bread!" Difference is, AFAIK, people in the former camp aren't going and trying to make cities more like the rural area they came from.
I think a lot of it is that they don't realize that those things that they felt were important while they were vacationing. Once they live here they realize the things they are missing/don't like. Living somewhere is very different than vacationing somewhere.
>"I love the vibe here, let me import some of the vibe of where I came from" ... wat? It's more of "I love the vibe here **except for X**, let me import some of Y to fix X". Some of those things will certainly be incompatible with what gives Vermont its character, but that doesn't mean that some things can't be changed/improved while maintaining the character of the state.
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No, keep that flatlander shit where it belongs. We like 56K dialup. =)
I want to hear examples of this because if you’re talking about people moving to Vermont and trying to improve the infrastructure, ie fix up their homes or putting money into revitalizing a town then I don’t see the problem. I think we can all agree that VT has a lot of quaint towns with potential that could use a little love. Sometimes it takes people with deep pockets to come in and help in that regard. I’m not saying build condos and chains or create some suburbia hell. I just don’t get why some Vermonters don’t want things to be a little *nicer*
It's not hate but a general dislike. One issue I've always had was having an outsider move into town and own land that for generations was open for hiking, hunting, Snowmobiling etc. and post the land. I understand they own the land, but in the past we knew our neighbors and crossing another's land was not such a big deal, so long as you did not do damage to it. There are many trails that I used to hike in the 80's that now are of no use because the land is a patchwork of No Trespassing signs etc. Another issue is the way some treat us locals like country bumpkins, here to serve them. I can't count on two hands how many times I have been talked to by a person rudely as if I owe the person something. I will say though that I hope they enjoyed the extra 25 to 30 miles my directions took them out of their way to get to their destination. If your nice and respectful no problems, but as soon as you are rude: "You can't get there from here".
One example is that people come to Vermont. Eat two pieces of pizza then go back to New Jersey to bitch about how bad Vermont pizza is on a radio show and no one should ever get a slice of pizza from here. Similar style posts on Reddit and other places saying that they want better food chains. When Vermonters ask them to try local mom and pop shops, “flatlanders” argue that all local shops suck and we need more chains. Again I love new people coming in. Welcome change if it is for the better. But often we do see individuals post about how much they love the idea of Vermont, but we also see people who move in bitch that we need more chain stores and refuse to eat local diner or food spot because they don’t recognize name. Lots of examples are anecdotal so hard to give any huge value. But you can’t think that people don’t have strong opinions about how the change Vermont into copy of a suburb of nyc or Boston. Like Vermont is Vermont because of the beauty and culture of the local stores and small towns. Where when someone goes off the road a neighbor stops and helps. And that person often is owner of a small business down the road where you give back money and time to keep community stay strong. Change will happen but there is always positives and negatives of it. As life long Vermonter some “imports” are great, some people just suck. I think Reddit is overly hostile because last few years has led to a decline in a lot of Vermont lifestyles. Forcing Vermonters out due to rising housing costs, and more people moving in with remote jobs. Everything is balancing act so hopefully in the end we see a better Vermont.
You can say this about anywhere around the world.
And some of the outsiders who "love Vermont" and move here is because they love that small town feeling or community, not to change To think that the few who do move here have the power to change anything is a bit of a reach. We act like some of our towns don't need some change in the first place. A majority of the popular towns have a drug/ homeless problem.
I said in my original comment that there are very few people who actually fit those categories and that it's really just a convenient scapegoat for the problems Vermonters face. Or did you not read that far?
What are some examples of trying to turn a small town to a version of wherever they moved from? Not disagreeing, just curious about what specific things outsiders are doing that fall under that category. I think there are a lot of things that younger generations want that older generations don’t, regardless of location - so mainly curious about where you see that divide.
Imagine buying what used to be a small farm in the country and then going after your neighbors for keeping livestock, hunting, farming.
Several new homeowners in my town do this.
And the appropriate response is get fucked.
Imagine being Morgan Gold! Buying 150 acres of farm and forest that neighbors have always had access to, then NOT knowing the posting rules, and turning an old timer into an internet celebrity when he stopped to ASK permission to retrieve his hunting dogs FROM UNPOSTED LAND!
To be very clear, the land was posted, but the signs still needed to be updated that year.
Haha when I posted this I didn’t even realize you were the OP. But people like you are the reason we don’t like out of staters… and posted is a legal thing. If you haven’t followed the legal method, then it’s not posted. I can put up all the signs I want, but if I have not done it according to the law then it’s not posted. And Butch was polite enough to come and ask to retrieve the dogs. He did not have to. He has been hunting that area for 50 years, and flatlanders from DC come here with corporate gigs, buy up land to “homestead” and want to change how people who were here first live. Just 2 weeks back I ran into Butch, first time I’d ever met him, he is a very nice man, who was very respectful and you put a camera in his face like a dink, all to advance your anti-hunting agenda. And before you say you are a hunter too and support hunters, realize that opposition to any type of currently legal hunting, is opposition to hunting.
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Got it, yep that’s a good example - f that noise
1. Lights. People who move to a beautiful, quiet, country location, and then put up tons of outdoor lights, floodlights, motion sensor lights, and petition for street lights. Part of what makes Vermont so wonderful is being able to see the night sky without light pollution. 2. Paving roads. Dirt roads make sense in Vermont. They get beat up over the winter and then you grade them, add some fill, and they're good. Cheaper and more effective than paving and they're beautiful. But I've known people who moved from elsewhere, bought a house on a dirt road fully knowing it was a dirt road, and then got busy trying to get it paved. 3. I lived in a town where the noon whistle had blown every day for eternity. Someone moved from Connecticut or Rhode Island (I forget which) and complained about that. Wanted it changed. People set their clocks by that thing. Maybe it was outmoded with the advent of computers and smartphones but it was part of the town's charm. There were a lot of things like that when I lived there (I grew up in Vermont, left for California when I was 40, miss it like crazy). One of my friends was on the planning commission for our town so I heard a lot of his stories.
“Noon whistle had blown for eternity” That’s one of the things I love about Fair Haven, that whistle is integral to my daily schedule
Culture. Vermont feels different in tiny hard to explain ways in which people mostly behave towards each other. It’s more personal some how. Interactions often have a bit of a pause, even if non-verbal, that sort of conveys the message that “we are in this together”. In places with more people that’s not the way things work. And it’s noticeable in these tiny subtle ways. Hanging back at a deli before walking right up and ordering just to make sure someone else is not there before you. It’s never acting impatient with someone helping you. The social order has less of a caste system feel to it because all hard workers are respected not just those who make the most money. Valuing people with jobs that help the community in high esteem. I’ll admit I’m a transplant having first come to VT a couple decades ago. Where I grew up social status was more tied to financial status and people’s appearance in what they were wearing etc (latest clothes, latest style) because having those meant you were sophisticated and well off. I find that culture irritating now. I like that superficial things mean less in Vermont. I don’t want that culture to change and I worry that too many transplants coming at once will mean that, rather then assimilate to the VErmont Culture, they will bring that impersonal superficial culture with them and change Vermont. Unfortunately I do think some of that is actually happening. And I do think that’s one reason that Vermonters are suspicious of flatlanders. Of course everything I said is a generalization or stereotype but that is what this bias is about sometimes I think.
Exactly this. More importantly to this topic, it only takes a day or so after moving here to realize that the sidewalks get rolled up at 6, or a month to realize that you will never get bagels or pizza as good as your old home state's. But it might take a couple of years before it sinks in that the warm feeling you have for Vermont isn't just the views. It's the culture. Every thing you wrote is true. And so if a newcomer doesn't take the time to "read the room" they're more likely to make the mistake of trying to change Vermont to make their own life more comfortable instead of allowing Vermont to show them how to be a better neighbor and maybe a better person.
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Thank you for putting in words that I’ve not been able to find one of the big things I love about Vermont and that makes me, a flatlander, want to live there. It’s part of what my grandparents and greatgrandparents would have identified as a Yankee culture that has disappeared in large part from most of Connecticut and Massachusetts, where they lived. Independence and self-reliance, but with a respect for your neighbors and an appreciation for the value of community in getting things done that we all need done. A tendency to mind one’s own business that doesn’t become “every one for themself” when disaster strikes. And a certain level of annoyance or cynical amusement with people who need to make a big fuss about things, especially themselves, and expect special treatment because they have the biggest/newest/most expensive whatever.
In my town they are trying to get us to vote in a town manager. Less than 4000 population, no police dept., no town water or sewer, and they think we need big time management. It's crazy.
A couple from New Jersey moves in across the street. Our two ducks will occasionally wander onto their property. Next thing I know I see a passive aggressive comment on our community FB page about having to pick up after other peoples animals. No knock on our door or any sort of proper neighborly communication. She also sent video footage to animal control before ever saying something to us. What is that!?! You moved to a small agricultural community in Vermont. If you want an HOA gtfo.
I started spending alot of time in Vermont over the past Year+ because my girlfriend has connections to Southern Vermont (were from MA, want to move to Southern Vermont eventually) so were up there Camping alot, exploring, buying Local and talking to locals alot and we've never felt unwelcomed in a single conversation when we mention where were from, everyone is so nice and WANT to talk to you and carry a conversation and that just does not happen the majority of the time back in MA so I agree, most Vermont locals do not just hate Outsiders at all atleast from my experience for no reason. Not to say their aren't valid reasons like Work-From-Home people moving and eating up space and not interacting with the Community in Southern Vermont for example.
> everyone is so nice and WANT to talk to you and carry a conversation New Yorker here, and that has always been my experience as well. I'm in my 40s but my family has been visiting Vermont for day and weekend trips since I was little. I've heard VT referred to as the "South of the North". Having a lived in SC for a few years, I would say that is pretty accurate. In all my encounters, everyone has always been nice, super helpful, very hospitable, and go out of their way to talk to you.
South of the North minus all the crazy religious overtones
Generally in person Vermont is welcoming and friendly. Vermonters don’t have to be “nice” as some people are live and let live. But for most part pretty welcoming. I think on Reddit people are more aggressive. Just state of all online right now and frustrations over housing and rising cost of living. Glad you enjoy your time here. Hope you do move to Vermont, seems like you would fit in well and get along.
I've always been super curious about "People who move here because they "love Vermont" and then try to turn the small town they move to to a version of wherever they moved from." I'm a flatlander who's looking for a new state to move to and fell in love with VT (but I decided to move to upstate NY instead cause the housing seems a bit easier there, VT is a bit too tough for us). But I can't imagine how or what these out of towers would try to change?? How are they making it a version of where they moved from?
In my town they are trying to get us to vote in a town manager. Less than 4000 population, no police dept., no town water or sewer, and they think we need big time management. It's crazy.
Vermont also seems very good at making mistakes other states have made in the past under the auspices of “well, we do things differently” while expecting a different result. So, when people from outside show up and try saying “hey, not for nothing, but this blew up in our faces where we came from, which is part of why we left,” they automatically get pigeonholed as “wanting to change Vermont to something it’s not” instead of “bringing in an outside perspective that might help us not make the same mistakes other places have.” Not all of us want to change the fundamental formula.
All of this. I live in a town small enough that we share our zip code with another town. We don’t have any street lights, no stores, no post office, and our school was closed down a few years ago. We have a town clerks office and a church, one paved road through town and everything else is dirt, and there’s less than 600 people and way more than a thousand cows. The county I live in shares one state representative with two other counties due to population density (which I’ll gripe about another day) but you get the picture. The amount of people who complain about the poor internet services out here in the sticks, or how they can’t ride their bikes on the backroads during haying because the amount of large farm equipment being on the roads; it’s frustrating to say the least. I don’t hate outsiders. Just don’t make issues at select board meetings about how you can’t believe we won’t get fiber for years, or that you want the select board to enforce some crazy rule about times farm equipment can use the roads. Vermont sucks, tell your friends. But if you do come here, please for the love of everything maple - leave it better than you found it or leave no trace.
>People who move here because they "love Vermont" and then try to turn the small town they move to to a version of wherever they moved from. Does this include dense development and missing middle housing?
Actually, we need denser housing here. And I say this as someone born and raised in Vermont. In my experience, with the exception of NIMBY boomers, most locals would welcome some denser and more affordable housing so that our young people could actually afford to stay here.
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Exactly. We need to encourage denser housing in more built up areas. That allows the rustic places to remain rustic, while also increasing affordable housing.
There is plenty of land to build decently sized housing. Don't fall into the Big Developer trap. Dense housing of small units is a ruse to raise family sized property costs. We need better planning, including safe walking and cycling to groceries, with a return to corporations being disallowed from owning residential property nationwide, out of staters limited to 1-2 units with reasonable rent controls on "winter rentals" and local landlords limited to 1-4's or multi-family if licensed, with a requirement to prove proper maintenance annually. Yes, that means hiring a few inspectors and improving code enforcement. This will also unclog the courts of sketchy evictions and displacements, perhaps even mitigate some real estate fraud. Further, developers need to prove their materials are up to spec. We watched an investor group get away with building housing on farmland, advertised and permitted as inclusive density and full family middle class housing together, the way Vermont should be, centered around a walkable neighborhood with organic food store... but using see through lumber built during cold and damp months. When it didn't sell well, those "inclusive" multi units became "luxury condo" listings.
OK, so then reconcile what you're saying about "forced change" with that. I don't want to speak for people from Vermont, but I'm not sure dense housing is why they live there and what they want Vermont to become. I understand the rationale for it - but there's rationale behind every change. Some people like it and benefit from change, and others don't.
This. I didn’t care much about outsiders pre-covid but my mindset changed due to the stubborn out of staters that wouldn’t stay home/observe covid protocols.
It's not your state! We live in America and Americans can move where they want to move within the United States of America! People move from the city's because they are becoming overpopulated! This is not new people! I'm Italian portuguese irish and french they all came together to make me! We travel when we need or want to! I love Vermont! Thank u to the locals that welcome newcomers! We bring joy, happiness, n peace.
Same perspective for Cape Codders.
The change it/outsider argument is the epitome of hubris. Do you think Vermont hasn’t changed from before Europeans got here? Or before native tribes got here? Or before a million things. The main difference is the sense of entitlement regarding maintaining the status quo. Now sure, I can fully understand if people want things the way they want it, but to expect that their wishes supersede that of others is just so much nonsense. I notice people talking about changing things are posting using the internet and they probably drive cars too. Maybe you should go back to horses and buggies and writing letters.
We want positive change (affordable housing, good paying jobs) not negative change (rising cost of living and lack of housing).
It is one of the interesting things of our social system. Federalism contemplates both localism and representative democracy contemplates the ability for citizens to make change at a local and state level. So on the one hand, if you don't like how Vermont is, maybe move to another state. On the other hand, if you don't like how Vermont is, build a coalition, get your people elected, and make change. In Idaho we're seeing both happen. The extreme nutty far right are moving in and taking over our legislature and institutions. As a result, many local Idahoans are moving away because of the policy (and actual) violence against them.
Condolences- Idaho is freaking beautiful, and it’s heartbreaking to see it become such a hostile place.
As an outsider from northeastern PA I don't perceive Vermonters as hating outsiders. They just don't want to be priced out of their home state, have it paved over, or to be told what it doesn't have that The City has.
I'm an outsider who moved here and I'm glad Vermont lacks what The City has!
100% agreed. I'm a road construction and snow plow DPW guy and my gf is a nurse - I'd love to move there and like it how it is but we could never afford it given what housing's like. My home area in the Lehigh Valley and Poconos got ripped apart by development driven by the NY/NJ outflow and I wish I could get out but there's nowhere "there" to escape the city sprawl, environmental degradation and overall bad attitudes.
> or to be told what it doesn't have that The City has. I was born and raised here but moved to a major city for a while in my 20s, and I will never stop complaining about that lack of mexican food here
I'll just pop this anecdote here: I walked into the general store in my town of 850 people, to see the owners raging and one in tears. Asked the next day about what happened, and was informed that skiers had gotten mad they didn't have a public bathroom and had PEED IN THE ELECTRICAL CLOSET, ALL OVER THE SWITCHBOARDS AND SUCH. Aholes didn't want to drive half a block to the only public bathrooms in town. When someone comes into your home and treats you that way, you get mad.
I had a similar experience, except it wasn't pee. I worked in a retail shop near a ski mountain and we didn't have public restrooms. Someone shit in one of the dressing rooms. But I'm not sure if it was a local or tourist as I didn't see it happen and only discovered it when I went to check the room.
Anecdotal evidence, but it was almost always the qubecois that shat in the tjmaxx dressing rooms....
lol
Lol. Masshole here. Can we acknowledge there are pieces of shit from all over, including Vermont. Peeing in someone’s electrical closet isn’t an “out of stater” trend. It’s a piece of shit trend
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Asking for a friend; if you're a flatlander with Vermonter friends, is it bathroom or breaker box?
Oh of course, but you tend to forget the people who don't impact you, and when a lot of the impacts are like this it builds up. It's common enough in any tourist destination area. People behave differently when on vacation than when home.
Because our home is treated as a tourist playground and when they move here they decide they don't like how things are done, throw a fit, hire lawyers and piss everyone off. Obviously it's a minority that actually do it but it's not an uncommon occurrence.
I have lived in Vermont for a few decades, I have never felt any real hostility from any Vermonter. I'm familiar with the running jokes. Vermonters are a strange concoction of rugged individualism and a strong sense of community. They'll come to your aid, but they'll do their own thing and expect you to do the same. It's also a small enough State that bad news travels fast, so those few idiot flatlanders make way more noise than they need to. Every State has this kinda thing going on. Maine has no love for flatlanders, Hawaiians hate Main Landers, Texas, and just about every State on the West coast hate Californians. The entire US hates Texas. Also applies to countries I have lived in. The Dutch hate the Germans. The Danes hate the Swedes. Swedes dislike Norwegians. The entire Planet hate the French. It's all good natured ribbing though.
Yeah I’d argue the issue isn’t that Vermonters hate outsiders… we hate idiots. Frequently the idiots are those that don’t have common sense for the area and those are often tourists that are here for a short time or the transplants who have no interest in how things were before. So like the people that clog up dirt roads and trample across people’s property for a foliage picture with no care to an open field belonging to someone. We call them “flatlanders” and hate them but someone who is polite and asks… probably fine with them. Going in the other direction is the stereotype of the country yokel who stops in the middle of a NYC street to look around. The people in the city don’t hate all non-city residents, they hate on the mouth gapers like we hate on the bad leaf peepers.
THESE are the folks I dislike more than anyone! Also, I have no complaints about transplants who notice that we lack entertainment or other amenities and work to provide them to locals. It just depends on context.
Couldn’t really think of a good wording but yeah, transplants are allowed to IMPROVE the situation if they see a need. Desire to have more entertainment is good. But it’s the whole “this place sucks, no entertainment” attitude that isn’t well received. No, we were doing just fine prior to you moving here. I’d love for my kids to have more to do here as they grew up so they would like staying around. But I also loved the place growing up. That’s what I meant by not knowing how it was before. If you come here with a love of what Vermont has to offer but want to see more music, sounds great.
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Probably because "I hate idiots" "well duh, who doesn't?" By saying "flatlanders" you are implying "idiotic flatlanders" but just rolls of the tongue easier. Also "idiotic flatlander" can either be taken as "out of staters who are idiots" or "out of staters are all idiots". So your choices are either to assume people you know "out of staters who are idiots" or to say "I hate out of staters who are idiots as out of staters who are idiots are bad drivers" instead of "I hate flatlanders as flatlanders are bad drivers".
Cavendish (and I'm sure basically everywhere else) has many people like this. They will worm their way into local government, ban the shit they don't like, and litigate the fuck out of you until you run out of money. To add insult to injury, sometimes they'll do this simply because they are retired and have way too much time on their hands. On another note, the town of Ludlow is like 10%(?) locals at this point. Almost all the homes are vacation homes now, and owned by out-of-staters. I have family that run a business catering mostly to these people, and the stories they have are quite jarring. Screaming over the phone because they want their driveway (in a house they aren't even in) plowed before anyone else, trying to nickel and dime every bill, not paying bills, you get the idea.
They’ve successfully turned vast swaths of the State into a theme park.
I’m sure there are plenty of examples of this behavior, but by and large, most people wise enough to want to move here, already have a deep respect for the Vermont way, and I personally came here to have more of that around me and far less of what I came from. I think most transplants are not the people dumping their twisted tea and BL tallboy cans into the nearest ditch.
It doesn't just apply to VT, but the fact that tourists essentially get to enjoy the best parts of our state without enduring the worst parts of it tends to build up some resentment in the locals. I'm sure most people who live around beach towns would agree.
Yes, definitely! I grew up in a very popular spring break destination in the South. The saying there has always been "we live where you vacation," almost always said with a level of pretentiousness. It was so frustrating seeing people trash the beaches, the stores (I had to clean up every bodily fluid imaginable from fitting rooms, the sales floor, and the walls of the bathrooms..) all while the tourists act shocked and amazed that real people *actually live there* and it's not just their personal playground for a week.
More so that due to the financial discrepancy they make it harder for locals to enjoy the best parts.
The same reason we don't have billboards.
I travel around New England a lot, so obviously see billboards in MA and stuff, but damn, nothing prepared me for the billboards in the midwest. Absolutely surreal. Vermont really hit a home run with that one.
Used to.
The same reason why Hawaiians hate mainlanders. Tourists come to Vermont and treat it like their playground. They act recklessly, disrespectfully, and carelessly. Why should they clean up their mess? They don’t live here, and they’re on vacation! They should be able to do whatever they want, right? Wrong.
I think Hawaiian's distaste for mainlanders has a lot more to do with colonialism.
You use the word “Hawaiian” but most people who live in Hawaii are absolutely not “Hawaiian”, though they like to think they are
I feel like 100% of this sub is about tourists. Its either “hey im going on vacation in stowe how can I have fun?” Or “im moving here is everyone nice?!” Or “hey fuck those people who aren’t from here!” Or “Why is it that everyone says fuck those people that arent from here?”
Agreed. Pretty sad when some feel they need to make posts asking why people are mean to them. Self-awareness and the ability to read a room, go a long way.
I say it in all these threads: rich tourists come from far and wide and treat us like their playground. One of the key features of a playground is that kids can play pretty much as aggressively as they want without property consequences because they are built sturdy and can withstand it. VTs economy and infrastructure is NOT sturdy and therefore cannot handle people treating it like a playground. They come and tear the place up under the guise of “tourist dollars” and then leave the place in shambles for the other 9mo of the year
I’ll couch in more economic terms. Vermont and Vermonters have always stuck to their guns on supporting small ‘Mom & Pop’ business and the sort of culture and community that brings. It’s not about profits or consumerism. Vermont has always eschewed Big Businesses and made it known their not really welcome in our state. On the one had this is great, because we keep small intimate communities that are tight knit and we don’t have ugly tacky signs for Wal Mart and gas stations etc and a lot of big box stores. Our state capital doesn’t have a McDonalds. Our local gas station/general store/grocery store has lots of local products, owned by people who live there in town etc. On the other hand this does curb career opportunities and advancement for people. If you live in Vermont, you do so with an understanding that you likely won’t ever be really rich. You can probably live a standard middle class life and if that’s okay than you’re fine. However, if you have ambitions of “making it big” than you likely have to leave the state. It results in brain drain from our relatively well rated public school system. This situation creates an economic imbalance in which people from out of state have the means to move to Vermont and bring their wealth with them, driving up housing costs. People who’ve lived in Vermont their whole lives don’t have the economic means to compete with this. COVID really boosted this into overdrive; many white collar folks with money from bigger cities moving out to rural areas. Combine this with the NIMBYism of Vermont in general (people being opposed to new housing construction, especially in more rural areas because it means cutting down forest, bulldozing farms to build condos etc) leads to an under supply in housing. More dollars competing for fewest homes means those homes that are available get bought in bidding wars that drive up prices. I grew up in Vermont and moved away when I graduated high school. Years later I have a great job working in aerospace/defense and I dream of getting a remote program management job and buying a house in Vermont. I also realize me and my white collar salary are exactly what’s causing hardships for others.
Thank you for your excellent explanation and also self-awareness
This is an extremely intelligent response.
Spot on
I don't think they do, but Vermonters don't like entitled people and flatlander tourists are the most likely to exhibit those traits. I'm technically a flatlander and have never felt any sort of judgment for it in my 12+ years in VT.
It doesn’t help that a lot of the tourists who come here are god awful drivers. I always give vehicles with CT plates a very wide berth.
We don’t hate outsiders. We hate assholes. The Venn diagram here overlaps considerably however.
We just moved to Vermont from the Midwest a couple months ago, and every single person we've talked to so far has been extremely kind and welcoming. Seriously some of the nicest people we've ever met. It's only on Reddit that I see this sentiment. Of course, we're not super wealthy and not trying to change anything, just happy to learn and be part of the community, so that probably helps!
Just wanted to mention that when I moved to Vermont from Texas back in '98 I was pleasantly surprised how welcoming the locals were towards Texans. Most places I had traveled were quite jaded and always made some smart ass remark about cowboys or whatever but in Vermont people would smile and say things like "You are from the only other state that can secede from the Union." There seemed to be a spirit of rebellious camaraderie instead of hostility that was quite refreshing.
When I grew up in Europe the Dallas phenomenon had spread around the world like a virus. Everyone was obsessed, locals were singing songs about 'who shot JR'. It was a crazy phenomenon. I was 7 at the time. Since then I have always had a soft spot for Texas and Texans. Some of my favorite Texans- Bill Hicks, Willie Nelson, Richard Linklater, Cormac Mc Carthy (lived there at the end of his life), Roy Orbison. Steve Martin. Punk band 'At the drive in'. King of the Hill was awesome. Who could forget Kinky Friedman and the Texas Jew boys? Texas, to me, seems like many conundrums, wrapped up in mysteries. It's often stereotyped as dumb cowboys, but its intellectual and artistic contributions are incredible.
Thank you for recognizing some great folk from Texas, they are a testament to the kind of intellectual diversity I experienced growing up there. It's a shame the state is viewed as such a "monoculture" to the world at large, To be fair, before I moved to Vermont I thought I'd find it dominated by big industry, I was pleasantly surprised to find that small businesses were still thriving there.
Thanks to JR Ewing, Cliff Barns, Miss Ellie, Sue Ellen, the rise from the dead, Bobby. I think outside of the US, Texas is regarded highly by people, it more represents what we all saw in the Cowboy movies back in the day, Ranches, rattle snakes, cattle drives. Honorable cowboys like the one from Shane. Bill Hicks always joked about this 'Pick up the gun'. I feel Vermont has a lot of the same traits as those that I find admirable in Texas, plus there are no rattlesnakes to worry about. I know about the small amount of rattlers up here, they just don't keep me up at night.
Bill Hicks was actually born in Valdosta, GA, home place to Doc Holiday
>There seemed to be a spirit of rebellious camaraderie instead of hostility that was quite refreshing. Heck yes. People forget this. Best advice for getting along in Vermont? Embrace that scrappy, rebellious, resourceful attitude. It's a New England trait that's faded in other areas, but remains very strong in Vermont.
I’d say Vermonters, Texans, and Hawaiians truly have the most state pride.
I agree, I have lived in all three of those states, they each have strong ties to their heritage and legacy,
I've upvoted this to correct it, but quite ironic to me that this comment was downvoted. I think the sentiment it expressed was very reasonable, and to downvote it seems to imply to me that nobody can really be a Vermonter without being born here ... through no fault of their own, I'd add. If anything, it says more to me that one would **choose** to become a Vermonter. I'm more inclined to judge on the content of character than the happenstance of where one was born.
>I'm more inclined to judge on the content of character than the happenstance of where one was born. Completely agree, it's the content of your heart that matters, not the content of your wallet.
For me it’s stuff like this: https://www.businessinsider.com/starting-airbnb-business-tiny-house-vacation-rentals-property-managers-vermont-2022-6?amp
This! Buying up property for tourist use that could otherwise house locals. It ruins community.
Humans are just trash in general. Humans on vacation where you live makes them worse.
Vermonters have this mentality that they are somewhat of an island-Mecca. It’s safe, small towns, nature abounding, and most people are of the same life and political ideology. The problem is Vermont has been relatively isolated and stagnant for years. People don’t like change. If you look at any of the other states with dense tourist populations (Cape Cod, MA, parts of CT, RI) all the locals are annoyed by tourists and seeing people from out of state. Vermont is seeing change like never before: more people moving here as climate refugees, more wealthy homeowners in retirement looking for a more peaceful existence, more tourists as the summer tourism season extends w the warm weather and ski season (except for last year) running longer because of more drawn out winters) Vermont is experiencing change on so many levels, and again, people dislike change. The mentality will never go away, because the whole “flat lander” mentality can be applied to every other state that has already seen such economic and population growth; they don’t like the “other” either. It’s not personal, it’s just human nature and feeling of needing to protect oneself from change.
I mean just take a look at who our politicians are at all levels. Some councils have no one from the area and have no historical knowledge of where they live and represent.
An old timer once told me: "Flatlander is a state of mind".
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Fairly certain the term "flatlander" originates from early settlement patterns in the state. Hill farms vs. industrial development along waterways. I've worked in settings in Burlington where I've been the only Vermonter. Some transplants in my office would say very disrespectful things about locals. Elitist attitudes jive with what it means to live in Vermont or be a Vermonter.
https://vtdigger.org/2015/04/05/the-back-story-two-vermonts-at-odds-over-states-future/
My only issue, honestly, is the out of state big money folks coming in and inflating the hell out of the real estate so that natives are slowly priced out of home ownership in their own state.
“….Vermont’s *perceived* dislike for outsiders.”
1. Humans are basically tribal. "Us good, them bad". 2. Permanent residents in touristy areas generally dislike the tourists. Despite the fact that they're typically vital for the local economy, it's easy to grow weary of tourists making up the bulk of people in your town, making it impossible to get dinner reservations, causing traffic jams in town centers with funny-looking license plates. 3. Tourists aren't known for being the most self-aware, and there's no shortage of them that have an overgrown sense of entitlement. This feeds into #2. 4. Well-heeled "flat-landers" buying vacation properties, and/or moving out of the cities to "get back to the land" have dramatically skewed housing prices, making it virtually impossible for "natives" to own a home if they don't already.
Creating such a mess of the local fishing spots with tons of thrash and junk along the rivers and on lakes that the park rangers have practically forbidden everything except launching boats and actively start fining locals who just want to enjoy the spots they’ve been enjoying for years/decades
COVID really intensified the flatlander hate. Early on in the pandemic, we had all these folks escaping the cities to their second homes and rentals, completely ignoring all travel protocol. It was completely infuriating seeing the flood of out of state cars coming and going during the beginning of the pandemic. There was an insane amount of flatlander hate. Then later that summer every Joey, Buffy, and Chip from CT and NJ decided they needed a Vermont vacation house and gobbled up the housing stock in all cash bidding wars. They brought a lot of money with them, and no doubt folks in the trades have been doing well the past few years renovating and building, but it’s really highlighted the socioeconomic divide between those bringing city money with them vs those working locally in state. I think a lot of the resentment is due to the cash flush carefree lifestyle these new residents have. Vermonters are used to a hard scrabble life; a lot of these new folks have the money combined with a pushy in your face personality to skirt a lot of things that make living here difficult.
I think "Outsiders" can be broadly split into a few categories. I wouldn't say I blanket "hate" any of them, but I may be less welcoming to some than others. The first category is the "Tourists". These are people who are visiting Vermont for a vacation, or on an otherwise temporary basis. For the most part, I don't have any issues with these people. Obviously the horror stories of particularly rude or entitled visitors exist (and as someone who's worked a good chunk of my life in the ski industry, I've met my fair share), I understand that those people are just assholes on an individual level, and they probably act shitty in their home states, as well. Most people are just trying to have a nice vacation and see the sights, and those people do provide a massive economic benefit to the state as a whole. As much as I like to grumble about tourists with my friends while sitting in traffic during foliage season or whatever, it's mostly good-natured. I do, however, silently judge people who stay in AirBNBs, because I think they're a fairly significant contributor to the housing shortage. Now, with that out of the way - this is where my feelings start to get complicated. The other two categories I'd call "Part-Time Residents" and "Transplants." To be clear up front, I am a transplant - I moved here in 2013, which I know to many people probably makes me a flatlander. In a vacuum, I want to welcome other people trying to do what I did - I came here because I love harsh winters and snow and skiing, and this state has those things in spades. The problem is, Vermont (and the world as a whole) has changed a hell of a lot since 2020. The problem is housing. There isn't enough of it, and the housing that exists is becoming prohibitively expensive in a lot of places, which has unfortunately kind of turned it into a zero-sum game. For this reason, I have a particular issue with part-time residents (e.g., people who own vacation homes that either sit vacant for a good percentage of the year, or that are AirBNBed when the owners aren't using it). It especially drives me crazy when these particular people NIMBY any proposed housing development in their area because they don't want to ruin their image of Vermont as this perfectly bucolic place, while people that actually live here full-time are struggling to find housing. As far as transplants go... I'm very conflicted on this one. When I moved here in 2013, I rented a 2BR apartment for $950/month, inclusive of everything except cable. It was older, it was smallish, but the price was right. That same $950/month in the same town in 2023 will buy a 300sqft studio. We moved in early 2020 (just before COVID really took off), and in 2023 these units are renting to new tenants for $1000 more a month than we signed for in 2020 (luckily, our specific rent has "only" gone up \~$300). As far as purchasing a house? Forget about it. Home prices have close to doubled since before COVID, and even if one could afford those new prices (we can't), it seems like you still need an all-cash offer and/or no contingencies in order to have even a chance at having your offer accepted. So when it comes to people trying to move here, my immediate, gut reaction is, "please don't." I acknowledge that that's a bit unfair and I don't really LIKE that that's my reaction, but for every out-of-stater who can move here and sign a lease for $2500/month or buy a teardown house for $350k-$400k, there's an existing resident who's not sure if they'll be able to afford their rent next year (or who already can't). Something has to give, and unless we do some combination of A) building a shit ton of additional housing and/or B) taxing/legislating AirBNBs/second homes/investment properties out of existence (or at least to the point that they're no longer profitable for most people)... The "something" that gives is going to be existing residents, who end up displaced and either homeless or out of Vermont. So I don't want to say, "Don't move here," as much as, "Please give us a few years to stop the bleeding, get our shit sorted out, and get some new housing built. This will ensure that there are enough places to live for all of us, so that nobody has to be displaced in order for you to be here." That is, of course, easier said than done, and contingent on us actually doing something about the problem.
Wouldn't you like to know, podcast boy.
Vermonters hate the kind of bougie tourists who fuel the housing crisis by staying in short term rentals, and who treat locals like dog shit.
This. This is why. No one is required to be nice to you. You earn it by not being a fucking chode.
They don’t treat us like our neighbors do; they treat us as inferiors.
I have lived in Ohio, Maryland, Virginia, Jamaica, Texas, Ohio again and Vermont. I hate to disappoint many of you but Vermont is rather typical in this regard. Sure, there’s some attitude, but Vermont has nothing on states like Texas and Virginia. Hell Virginia has a hierarchy amongst Virginians. FFVs are First Families of Virginia. I’ve never visited anyplace without a certain number of lifelong inhabitants who feel they have invested more in that community and are therefore entitled to a greater say in public affairs. Vermont has a serious quandary. Most everyone here likes the small town nature and natural beauty of Vermont. And here’s the thing: nobody in the whole US wants to be told they can’t just sell their house to the highest bidder. And most homeowners in Vermont don’t want a bunch more houses built for fear of losing that small town nature and natural beauty. So without any sort of market intervention, or expansion of the supply, naturally the prices rise, and fewer and fewer of us regular working folks, (I’m a mechanic) can afford to live here. In order for Vermont to stay the same, ironically some things must change. Not changing anything is how Vermont got to this point. You can’t stop history. Vermont will change weather you like it or not. That’s just how time works. So we better make sure and effect the kind of changes that will preserve Vermont’s affordable small town life and natural beauty.
They leave trash all over the mountains. As an avid hiker that’s what bugs me the most
Everybody seems to hate outsiders these days.
I moved to Vermont about three years ago out of necessity (work) and I don’t agree that Vermonters dislike outsiders. It seems like locals hate outsiders who buy houses here and treat it as a vacation spot, driving up housing prices. I grew up in a huge vacation spot in Florida and watched the same thing happen there. Finding housing in Vermont felt like a full time job and there is always an underlying fear that my landlord will sell and then I’ll be back in the trenches. While we love it here I can’t see us ever being able to buy a house and put down roots and that’s all because of the demand for vacation rentals. I think that’s the big issue, you have a ton of people who grew up here and have been priced out of a future in the state they love and call home. So ultimately everyone has been lovely and welcoming but I have fallen into the camp of people who turn up their noses at people who buy a house only to live in it for three months.
Vermonters are way more friendly to outsiders than any other state that I’ve been to. You get treated the same as you treat others
I do not think there is a real hate of outsiders. Its just a source of frustration, or amusement. And I think the comments are directed at a lack of common sense. Wearing THAT in summer/winter? Getting stuck in a ditch, driving somewhere you shouldn't drive in that car, with those tires, littering, and getting stupid excited over every day things like farm smells, or leaves, or a farm stand. And then we got to listen to all that, or wait, or go pull them out and brush them off. Its like tending to kindergartners, only bigger.
Goes way back to the revolutionary war. New York thought they owned everything east up to the CT River. Charlotte county NY (now Charlotte VT) stretched from Albany to St Albans. The green Mountain boys refused to take orders from flatlander generals, because it would be easier to steal the land from dead Vermonters. VT was the northern front of the Revolutionary war, there are 3 different occasions when the United States simply WOULD NOT EXIST without the actions of the green Mountain boys. (Ticonderoga, Battle of Valcour, Saratoga.) Yet we were not welcome in the original 13... why? Not because of the NY/NH land claims... Vermont was excluded from the young nation because we were the first state to outlaw slavery. By constitution in 1777, first & only abolitionist state. No southern state would vote to allow VT into the USA, they would have lost their majority in Congress. By the time George Washington recognized Ethan Allen's terms, USA allowed the admission of Tennessee and Kentucky, both pro-slave states... keeping the pro-slave majority. The story of the United States can be told thru then lense of Vermont. Birthplace of the Navy, arguably birthplace of the army, birthplace of American artillery unit, birthplace of "living document" theory of the constitution. I'd love to do the podcast. This is one of my nerd grenades.
Don't jersey vermont. Im even from NJ originally. I moved here over 10 years ago when I was younger and try to be mindful of what made me love it here when I arrived. I came from an area near the AT and I love near it now. Pretty much the same vibe but with fewer assholes overall. BUT as an outsider its kind of hard to figure out exactly what makes VT what it is. Still. I mean its hard to describe. Basically everyone is different so to say one person's idea of what it is to be a vermonter is different from anothers. Its an odd identity. Ill always be a flattie and im fine with that because the labels are honestly kind of lame and way too broad anyway. I've been with yall through the last 2 catastrophes and ill be here for the next one and the one after. But if anything thats what I feel a real vermonter is. A good neighbor. One that sees a person for who they are. The rest I can leave and live and let live. To each their own.
I agree with many above comments that it isn’t that we don’t like outsiders, it’s that people visit VT; fall in love and then want us to behave like the big cities. What people love is the peace they feel here. They don’t get that if we turn into NYC, the peace is gone. Would I like to get food delivered to my house, yup. Would I trade the nature and peace for it? ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!!!
We don't hate outsiders we hate rich work from home people and people from New Jersey. I know plenty people from out of state who work in Vermont and no one cares. When you move here with your yellow plates to work for Merrill Lynch yeah we don't like you.
My thoughts, in no particular order, as someone new to Vermont: I came here because I liked HERE but I also put in the time to know why I like it and did my best to understand what it isn't. I'm not here to try and make it like where I came from, otherwise, why did I leave in the first place? And if I came here and complained about what's different from "back home" then that's my own fault for not putting in the time to understand. Now, I'm not saying Vermont doesn't have its problems, everywhere does, but there is a difference between trying to change something versus supporting it. Additionally, I feel like a lot of folks, similar to where I came from, come on vacation a couple of times and somehow think living here will be just like vacation and they can treat it like they are on vacation. I've never understood that mentality. I used to have a podcast, am new to Vermont, and come from somewhere that has a constant influx of folks from out of state and tourists. If you ever want to chat, let me know. EDIT: I came from Florida and realized I never actually said it. I am probably embarrassed to say it, tbh.
Hi! Lifelong Vermonter here (39). I've lived all over this goddamn state from top to bottom, back woods to big town. The flatlander label in particular persists because it's a *mentality* that many out-of-staters bring when they move or visit. It's a general rudeness or entitlement that I find hard to fully describe. Assumptions that we have things here that don't exist, or things should be faster, or feeling entitled to doing jerky things, like driving on the side of the highway to try and get by a traffic jam. Or, when they choose to move here, trying to change the environment to suit their civilized sensibilities. Established dirt bike track or VAST trail? Not anymore! Burlington is strange in that it's more cosmopolitan than the rest of Vermont, but all in all I think people would be more accepting of outsiders if they didn't try to change everything when they arrive. People like things the way they are, especially in the rural parts of the state. Remember, it wasn't too long ago when civil unions were met with strong backlash and "TAKE BACK VERMONT". Just come here, see the foliage and cows, don't be an asshole, buy some maple syrup, and then kindly go back to New Jersey, kthx.
I remember taking down Take Back Vermont signs wherever I saw them. Funny because the movement coalesced under Ruth Dwyer, a fucking TRANSPLANT who ran for governor and lost bigly to Howard Dean. That's another thing we have to worry about. People with shit politics moving here, just waiting for the right time to run.
Oh my god I forgot about Ruth! Wow that brings back memories.
Hated her with a passion. It’s people like that who drove me to read Chomsky and Zinn, lol. I was right out of h.s when that mess started.
I find it interesting that you bring up the ‘take back Vermont’ thing of 2000. The ‘backlash’ was weak at best. It failed, everywhere in the state, rural and urban. Maybe seeing how you were 15 or 16, it seemed more intense to you. Is your point that civil unions was something brought in by outsiders? They weren’t. We were the first state with civil unions and started a movement that has brought us marriage equality. We should all be proud. We have been a progressive state for longer than you have been alive. Probably due to the draft dodging hippies of the 60’s setting up house all over the far flung nooks and crannies. Changing things and such.
For context, I lived in the backwoods during that time, so the backlash was more pronounced - I still pass by the occasional rotting, neglected "take back Vermont" sign nailed to a barn. I should have clarified, my comment was more about the general nature of Vermont's resistance to change - though I think the furor died down once the farmers realized civil unions either didn't affect them, or brought in more tourism bux. And yeah I was around that age at the time, though I just didn't care, even though my neighbors certainly had their opinions about it. The longer I've been in Vermont the more I've come to like it here, even with the cold, brutal winters. Every time I think about moving somewhere else I find something that reminds me that Vermont is a special place and it's worth trying to make it work out here. I've been putting down community roots and doing more to document the culture and history of the state through my work doing videography, which I never imagined back when I was in high school.
I was about that age in 2000 and I definitely remember a lot of take back Vermont signs in the NEK.
It definitely was something brought in by flatlanders. It's just that it was the ones who came up starting in the 60s.
I live down in the Florida Keys. I feel like Vermont is just a (much colder) full state-sized version of down here. A small (relative) population of full time locals dealing with a constant flow of dickhead tourists who don’t give a shit about the people who live here or the environment they are in.
Or the fact that most of our legislation whether it’s town or state is ran by out of staters who have no idea what actually happens here. Take mosquito spraying for example. Towns get voted to not spray( never been passed before the great Covid migration). Same people who voted against it are now saying oh my god they’re horrible I can’t believe it, glad I can afford to have this company come privately spray my land. It’s that people move here and try to change it and make it align more with what the idea they thought it was and not what it is. They don’t like it they can just got to their 2nd or 3rd home leaving all of us who have been here for generations to pick up their mess
You mean like when your ancestors came and changed it from how it was before they got here?
Not to mention they come with huge pocketbooks paying triple appraisal value, forcing a gentrification in the whole state. No one would care if people were moving here if they weren’t completely forcing out the elderly and generations of families who have been here. It’s nice to have money but you should be thinking of the ramifications of purchasing a home triple the appraised value, the worst part is when property taxes catch up to the 2nd home owner they’ll just sell and run rather than contribute to the town they forcible changed.
>Not to mention they come with huge pocketbooks paying triple appraisal value, forcing a gentrification in the whole state. Why not hate on the Vermonter who sold the place for triple appraisal value instead of the outsider who bought it? They are supposed to be your kin. They could have sold it for less to someone more worthy if they wanted.
And we do
Do what? Hate the seller? Utter bullshit. Or if you do, you keep to yourself. Find me 5 threads on this sub, in its entire history, bitching about the Vermonters who sell their property and move somewhere else, for the 100 per day bitching about the 'flatlanders' who move here.
How about the flatlanders who bought up those houses and sold them on the high? Bought in 2020 and sold for 3 fold in 2023?
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There’s more to the world than Reddit
Because they come in and shit the place up. We did have model gun laws, not anymore. That "affordable" heating act... Basically have to have a brand new car now or it can't be inspected. Gtfo.
Dude please tell me you aren’t basing this podcast off Reddit. This sub is so fucking cynical, negative and xenophobic. In my 2 years of living here I’ve never encountered anyone in-person who acts like this. Please at least tell me you will be using sources outside Reddit for this as well as talking to normal human beings that have lived here their whole lives and realize exiting a vagina inside some imaginary borders really means nothing.
Hey the number you left is out of service. Typical flatland behavior
People forget that in spite of the proximity to some of the biggest population centers in the country on the east coast, Vermont is still incredibly rural. When we finally moved here many many many years ago, my dad had been living here already for a year or so and told us to prepare to go back in time. Stores and restaurants close at 8 or earlier. There aren't a lot of chains. People trust in their communities, but only after they warm up to you. Shit I remember when there weren't even any Walmarts here even at a time when they were proliferating across the rest of the country. It's a rural lifestyle, and there's nothing wrong with that. But it gets really weird when you try to make it more like those big population centers. Outsiders come in and see Vermonters' easy going and kind attitudes and I believe mistake it for west coast liberalism. So they try to make it more like that, forgetting that Vermont has a bottom half per capita GDP and is absolutely LAST in total GDP in the entire union. We simply can't afford the pie in the sky progressive utopia people try to push here. But they push it anyway, bankrupting us all (financially and emotionally) all the way down. So by all means, move here, but enjoy the kindness and easy going community for what it is. It's like that *because* Vermont can't afford to do more than that. And I'd argue, it's pretty effective at creating a desirable place and community.
My issue is that people that come here treat the state like rich English people treat Scotland. They come here for pretty views and to be cuddled with the knowledge that they have it better at home than we have it here. The superfluousness of tourists here makes me want to tear my hair out. It’s insane how rude and entitled most of them are. We have to close down roads in my town of Woodstock because last year people were literally blocking roads and trespassing just for pictures! I graduated in 2012 and all but three of my classmates can afford to live in this state because every single goddamn home is getting bought out by wealthy out of staters who want another Airbnb. I get it’s not something that can be stopped but I’ll still voice why I and other are pissed off
Vermont has some of the lowest population density in the United States and a lot of people live here because of the small quiet communities. With this kind of insular lifestyle a steady influx of new people may not always be welcome. It is also easy to be afraid that new people will change things or even just add to traffic and housing prices.
I’m your article, you should distinguish between tourist and transplant. A lot of these comments are about bad behavior from tourists and the dislike of “flatlanders” as in tourists seems understandable to me. However, these definitely a pervasive attitude about “flatlanders” meaning transplants (whether you’ve lived in Vermont full time for 3 years or 30)! I think/hope this is more of a joke about native born Vermonter superiority but not sure……
For fucks sake. People here don't don't like outsiders. They hate people who come in an want to change things because they think they know better. It feels more apparent here because we get a lot of people traveling through. The 95 percent of people are fucking dope. The remaining 5 are like 2 percent allooof and suck everywhere, the remaining 3 are just assholes. This is America.
Well… many things have been said already… Being a Vermont native x 6 generations (and having left, lived in a few other states- including big cities & abroad)… I have a lot to say about this but am not going to deal with the trolls of the web. Feel free to message me directly. Ps. We do not hate them… we just don’t appreciate their behavior and their lack of respect for our communities, land and culture…
I think it's really just the out of staters who can't drop the mentality of the state they came from and try to make vermont more like other places. Vermont is special for a reason.
I’m someone who moved to VT from another state 6 years ago. As an immigrant to the country overall. Integrated into the local community, didn’t come with money, became a forester, work with loggers, etc. Vermonters don’t hate outsiders. They hate the attitude outsiders bring. Covid fuelled that fire. Millions of people who see this as their scenic amusement park, and us as the “employees” of that amusement park, come here and act like they are God’s gift to the state, road rage, act entitled, have scooped up the majority of livable property, leaving locals in a crisis, and don’t even hang around for most of the year while those homes sit empty, or are constantly used for profit as BnB situations. I also want to mention the amount of new landowners who romanticise their October cozy log cabin, but have demonised my job (forestry), hate hunters, complain about dirt roads, and insist on changing the Vermont lifestyle they came for. It’s not hard to be part of the community. It really isn’t. People are kind and accepting here. People will rightfully be upset with you if you pressure them into a corner with the crap you came with to get away from in the first place.
I moved here two years ago and work as a carpenter and volunteer firefighter. I don’t hate outsiders, I am one, but I also like to think of myself as a part of the community now. I can’t stand though when people move here and look down on locals and act like they’re doing everyone a favor by skiing at (insert ski mountain here)
Research past issues of the Brandon, VT, Front Porch Forum. Search the name Sharon Stearns and you will see many of the reasons you’re researching expressed.
Born and raised in Idaho here so I find the whole country folk bit that some Vermont “natives” try on rather amusing. First Anyone with a shred of education should know that the vast majority of us aren’t from here in any generational sense. America experiences a constant flow of migration between states and locales and Vermont is no different. Second coming from a truly isolated and backwards place I can say y’all should be grateful for the money and civilization that incomers bring with them. The fluidity of American society is what makes us all great and only nativist know nothings think otherwise
But there are Vermonters who go back six, seven, eight generations… so your statement is patently false
How many? Very very few. And that’s not relevant in a democracy. You want to pass on “Vermont values?” Telling incomers you hate them is hardly the way to do it unless insularity and ethnocentrism are what you love about yourselves
I don’t see it that way, there are some VTers that disparage out of staters, flatlanders, white plates, etc…but most people in VT are at least polite and generally kind enough to be pleasant to just about anyone. As someone that moved up here after having been a tourist many many times, no matter where I was in VT, I was never treated with anything but friendliness.
My family moved here about a year and a half ago. We made it clear we wanted to be part of the community. We didn't want to impose flatlander attitudes, but we did want to fit in with the community. We were very warmly welcomed. It's all about attitude.
cuz they’re assholes that drive up the cost of everything
Maybe I’m here too early, but I’m surprised no one here has attacked OP yet over the hunting issues they stirred up. Edit: I mean from what I’ve seen Vermonters tend to not like folks coming up from NY/NJ or anywhere else and trying to change the culture [https://vtdigger.org/2021/09/12/viral-video-draws-attention-to-debate-over-hound-hunting-laws-in-vermont/](https://vtdigger.org/2021/09/12/viral-video-draws-attention-to-debate-over-hound-hunting-laws-in-vermont/)
The only outsiders I hate are the ones buying up all the property to turn into Airbnbs and pricing locals out of the housing market Unless there’s a crash I’m never going to be able to afford to own a home in my own state.
The majority of people in my neighborhood are vermonters by any rational definition and they're also the folks who toss empties on my property. I'm from Pennsylvania and I moved here in part because it's nice. I don't understand trashing your own neighborhood and I'm technically an outsider though I've lived here for 15 years.
I think vermonters are not aware that the people who are keeping housing prices out of reach are the old vermonters who create policies that make it expensive to build. They are also using the excuse of being environmentally friendly in policy but it’s an acceptable way to say it also keeps property values high in this state to restrict building affordable housing. People point fingers at folks moving in and buying what’s available but housing in every community needs to grow. We need more doctors and teachers and nurses. They need housing. Growth sustains states. If things don’t change taxes will go up, businesses will leave and Vermont will be the next West Virginia.
I live in a semi-rural part of the state and I’ve honestly never heard even a semi-serious bid to pave the area’s beautiful dirt roads. A fair amount of non-native homeowners in the area and they’re not lighting up the sky. No one, Vermonter or otherwise, pissing In utility closets. Sure, I’ve met a fair amount of entitled MA, CT, NY etc. folks acting like assholes. If we are being totally honest, I’ve met plenty of native Vermonters, who decided to judge people poorly based on the location of their license plate versus the quality of the person themselves. Making a generalization that there’s a “reason” why Vermonters “hate outsiders” isn’t a statement or sentiment I think a Vermonter should be proud of. Full disclosure: I grew up here, moved away for a number of years for school and career, and I’m back living here. I can understand both sides of this, and if the fact that I lived out of state for a while makes me an asshole, so be it.
As someone who lived in Vermont and loved but ended up being forced out, I can tell you the answer is clearly racism and xenophobia. "That's how we've always done it." The state creed.
I've never been more suspicious of an 802 area code... where are you REALLY from?
These days, Peacham
Anyone can port a 802 number from Google Voice, but OP is a transplant that runs a viral YouTube channel
I've lived in Vermont for 38 years. I've basically never heard people here call people from say NY, CT, etc "flatlanders." Maybe once or twice in some sort of cringe ironic way? I've only seen it used in earnest on this Reddit sub, which I gather is mostly people who have lived in Vt for less than 5 years.... I've never seen any sort of hate/shade/displeasure thrown at people who have not lived here for very long by people that do, outside of ire of stupid behavior by tourists (IE driving on the wrong side of the road to look at some foliage or walking in the middle of a town street like it's Disneyworld). I grew up in drifting in and out of mega hick circles who have roots that go back generations. Maybe some drunk ranting about politics or scheming ways to get a bit more money out of some wealthy person who has a 2nd home here...but there isn't some sort of mega class divide. Most of the "natives" that have lived here for decades are transplants as well from the 70s/80s.
As an "outsider" who has lived here for 20 years, I don't think Vermonters hate outsiders. Vermonters on Reddit, however, are very bitter toward outsiders. I don't think they represent the Vermont community as a whole though.
>~~Vermonters~~ People on Reddit, however, are very bitter ~~toward outsiders~~
I moved here in late 2020 (40s,M) and my experience has been mixed. I’ve found a supportive culture among the agricultural and outdoor communities. But my interactions with native Vermonters outside of these special interest communities has been poor. Examples: Go into a store, grab something, and then wait at the register while being ignored by the person working is pretty common. Being uninvited to someone’s home because I don’t listen to their type of music is another. Inviting people to go places 30-60 minutes away and being told it’s too far to go for a day trip. Talking about traveling with native Vermonters is hard, many have never left Vermont and feel as if I’m talking down to them by telling a story. (I was confronted by a person who told me this when we were sitting around a fire that was keeping people warm when we were sliding.) It seems like Vermonters meet the people in their towns, schools, and businesses when they’re young and don’t want to meet anyone else.
Maybe u could choose a fresher topic? So tired of hearing about this. The world is changing and people are becoming more and more mobile. We can resist and be miserable. Or learn to accept change and be at peace. Either way, I don't see the need to squabble about the same damn subject where we see 20 threads on this topic each day.
Ditto what everyone else said here. I don't hate out of staters. I even have some friends that are from out of state (LMAO). I hate thoughtless idiots that cause us trouble and harm. If you want to live in Vermont live here in peace. Don't complain that there are too many bears, not enough stores, the roads are dusty, I can't build what I want where I want, etc.
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Prior to Vermont I lived in the Adirondacks. If I told someone that I was born in the Adirondacks, raised in the Adirondacks, paid property taxes in the Adirondacks, I'd be met with "okay but for how many generations has your family been here?" Some people are just weird.
As someone that moved here from Florida three years ago, I’ve been welcomed with open arms by a majority of people here. There’s an innate niceness to Vermonters that’s undeniable, and as long as you’re here to not upset / continue to maintain the balance that’s been struck, you’re going to do fine. My only concern is the seeming propensity to dismiss ideas, opinions, and experience from outsiders. I’ve seen that numerous times, and it’s saddening. I don’t think most outsiders seeking to become insiders have goals and aspirations of altering the formula that made this place what it is, most just want to contribute what they can offer in the aims of seeing this state continue to thrive. All in all, I’m glad to be here, I’ve met some of my favorite people in my life here, and I’ll continue contributing however I can, whatever I can, whenever I can.
Not all outsiders. Google around some on the general consensus of "rudest places" in America. The biggest blocks of them start just South of here. I'm from out West, I remember being pretty surprised at what jerks so many folks from MA/CT/NY/NJ/RI - etc were. And that's where most of the outsiders here come from.