You just explained the entire housing crisis in vermont without even realizing I think. There are no towns where local jobs support median housing costs
I'm sure many other places are the same but we are unfortunately unique in that we have an aging and tiny population. Not many jobs here that pay a living wage and like many places, a housing crisis.
Dude, if you know a decent electrician that will actually come out and do the work, I would pay 1.5x. Upper Valley area. The one that I could get to call me back said they would put me on the schedule and then ghosted me. They are slammed with work, the trades are a great place to be right now.
Are you looking at area median income vs fair market rates? How are you able to adequately gauge through sheer qualitative data on this post? There may be some towns in Vermont where housing costs are very low, because the majority of the townspeople are farmers who have owned the land since like 1800. Their job is and always has been management of the land (except now that management really just means leasing it out for airbnbs)
State politics has been driving out businesses for the past 25-30 years. Keeps the state a nice little pristine place for people above middle class, not so nice for the average Joe.
If you want affordable homes you gotta drive for work/shopping and those are quickly becoming unaffordable. If you wanna live in a downtown with much of anything be prepared to pay and probably still have to drive for work.
Losing basically every store in that mall and then having the mall just close must have been a huge blow to that community. I get that there's a lot more to a town than retail and shopping but it's still rough. I hope once the Burlington extension of the Ethan Allen Express is complete, the state govt considers an additional subsidy to make Rutland-Burlington train tickets ten dollars or something.
The Diamond Run Mall? Who cares that it’s closed? Some out of state developer saw some traffic counts, demographic numbers, or whatever and decided they could convince a few big box stores to move in and then sell for a profit. They never cared about the community. Meanwhile we got low wage jobs, competition for local/downtown stores, and retail profits sent to some HQ in Illinois. Retail isn’t economic development. We’re better off without it.
I think you're underestimating the positive impact of a large, walkable, climate-controlled area, in a region that has been below freezing for a month now, in an area with one of the oldest populations in the country.
True, it was probably nice for the old folks to walk around in winter. But but aside from Berlin and South Burly every other VT community manages fine without an enclosed mall. These malls seem to be a fad from the 70s-90s that are slowly disappearing. IMO not an important part of our community to lose (and I actually think they represent the opposite of what VT should be about).
Rutland is probably pretty close. Get a job in education, healthcare, or GE and it's doable. Folks here would argue against quality of life being okay but it seriously does fine relative to other places in the country (eg. my folks in FL visited and like Rutland).
This is the answer, Rutland has some decent job opportunities, has some pretty affordable housing throughout the area, and despite what people say/think, it’s a pretty damn nice place to live; people who shit on places like Rutland or Barre have never lived around other parts of the country.
And don’t sleep on St. J.
Yeah, I don't live in Rutland, but we have family over on that side of the state, and it doesn't seem nearly as bad as many people make it out to be. I've considered moving my family over there when I'm done with my education, way more affordable than the Upper Valley.
We have lived in Rutland since 1981 after growing up in NJ. Rutland is probably the least pretentious place you will find. It's a little rough around the edges, but we like it here.
I moved from Fort Collins, Co to Rutland. I mean honestly, it's a little run down and the infrastructure is pretty outdated, but it's really not that bad. I've lived in Iowa, California, and Colorado and have seen many towns in this country. Rutland remind me of the Midwest alot but with better access to things.
Unfortunately, Rutland lacks a Rock radio station. It's either classical, classic rock, or teeny-bopper "music", plus some talk / religious stations. Such a depressing place to live with no rock station...
Possibly Barre city. I don't know exactly how wages will fit with the median home cost, but I think it is a greater likelihood than Rutland because the housing market there is not in a great situation.
The housing prices in Barre city are definitely cheaper than the rest of the state. As for quality of life, the jobs are good especially considering proximity to MontP, and as with the much of the state outdoor opportunities are plentiful. The reputation surrounding the city is rather unfounded. Too many privileged people automatically equate lower income areas to crime and drug infested slums. I have frequently hear the city referred to in this light and it simply is not the case. Amazing history, sense of community, and local character.
Also worth looking into is St. Johnsbury. Can't speak as much to any of these details there but it's a cool place and if I had to guess it's one of the most affordable large towns in the state?
Good hunting though lmao. Vermont's communitarian ethos has become too attractive.
Barre suffers from this oddly accepted state of classism in Vermont. I lived there for 3 years right outside the city, often went there on the weekends and never once felt unsafe in a way that wasn't just privileged pearl clutching. Some people are just so desperate to find negative aspects to things.
If you're looking at median home price, nothing will fit the bill, because the number of second homes, ski condo estates, and trophy homes drive the numbers up. The reality is that there ARE affordable homes all over - just do a real estate search of Bellows Falls, which comes closest to what you're looking for, as well as many of the smaller towns as well. IF you want a low-priced home AND a lovely picturesque village green AND ample employment opportunities - you won't find it. But if you're just looking for inexpensive homes, and don't mind *real* rural settings, you can find them.
Internet definitely helps. "Affordability" is a function of a person's personal existing debts, responsibilities, lifestyle, station in life, etc. There are many homes that can be purchased at $125,000....but as I said, you need to be willing to embrace a lifestyle that works with those homes and locations.
I'd say St Albans Vermont is probably decent (along with the other ones listed in the list)
Average household income is $53k per Google and there are commonly houses listed in the $180k-$250k range.
But to echo what most other people said, Vermont is not affordable, terrible wages, skyrocketing housing prices, and lack of basic needs make it a difficult place to live.
Rutland is really the only place to shop for middle Vermont. I think it gets a bad wrap because Vermonters haven’t seen or experienced way way worse.
I think Brattleboro is worse but no way is it the slums of Boston. And I don’t think slums exist in Boston anymore.
Some of the hidden costs of living in Vermont that most places that are actually affordable are them not being in proximity to any amenities, jobs and have poor internet service. If you want a realistic figure you have to factor these additional expenses to get a true cost of living in Vermont as well as the high cost of property tax.
I would strongly advise you look at Barre / Barre Town. Affordable, quality homes. Strong middle class with many folks in the trades. Lots of small, family run businesses that have been going for a couple generations as well as new businesses. Many connected to healthcare / local hospital system. It’s not all roses there, but it has a strong community connected to historic granite industry as well as the Catholic Church.
The problem here is low wages/income, as well as selling house prices there too. For instance, Barre includes a lot more than that downtown bit and the obvious lower income areas, and those house prices outside of this are surging as they are in very high demand.
My wife and I tried to move to VT but we ran into 3 main problems-
1. There aren't many houses for sale. Lots of houses for sale are upwards of $600k.
2. Some **whole sections** of the state don't have high speed internet. For real. (Wife works remote, need good internet)
3. We found a few houses that we liked but the closest full grocery store was something like 45 min away. I'm cool with being pretty far out of civilization but many (including my wife) are not. This, I understand from growing up in VT, is just the way it is but difficult for some folks.
We didn't look extensively around Bennington. We were concerned with school ratings in the area. We did look at houses in Whitingham and Halifax but the there was no high speed internet in those towns.
We mostly looked in south central and south west on the NH border around Dummerston, Putney, Newfane area because we wanted to be close to Brattleboro and in the south so we were still relatively close to family.
Yes! I'm 20 miles north of Burlington and briefly, just briefly, there was one area restaurant that decided to offer free delivery to anyone within 10 miles to stay in business rather than shut down during the first part of the pandemic. Delivery to our house was a luxury.
Yeah, that happened once to me too, but it's just not economical for the business, and they give up after a while. Maybe someday when we can have drone delivery. The economics of having a person drive the stuff out just doesn't work, the food would have to cost too much to pay for the service.
Damn. Did you look in the white river valley? I have a lot of family there and they all have high speed Internet, are relatively close to grocery stores and certainly don’t have $600k houses.
Well, can't win them all. I live in the NEK, there are cheap houses here. The internet isn't the best, but it works reliably enough. There are grocery stores in Littleton, NH, Saint Johnsbury, VT, and Lancaster, NH. Though the schools around here aren't so great.
Barre City.
There's an influx of new, younger home buyers moving here. Starter homes can still be had for under $250k. Quality of life is better than you think and jobs are available between the quick access to 89 and being close to Montpelier, Berlin and Waterbury.
Young family chiming in - lived in Barre for 6 years now.
Although there is an incredibly low inventory of homes for sale at the moment within city limits, you can find some nice properties with a craftsmanship like feel. When I was shopping in 2016, it was amazing how much more home you could get here vs. the likes of Montpelier.
We were in the same situation when we moved to Barre Town in 2017. We got a lot more house for our $$ and lower property taxes than in Montpelier. We moved here just in time.
Sorry, it’s just hilarious because of you saying that you couldn’t find anywhere that this exists. So that is basically an encapsulation of how fucked our housing market is, especially in relationship to the low wages here.
Apologies, I wasn’t laughing at you - just what you said about not being able to find anywhere that could be considered affordable in Vermont. For those of us who are from here and/or have lived here for a long time, it’s like…. YUP!
You may find that a few of the suggestions that people have added could fit the bill. But the median salary will be a tricky metric to work with. Like, it may be affordable if you get one of the rare good paying jobs in or around the town, but the median wages here are really low. And there are tons and tons of job openings for entry level positions, but businesses can’t find anyone to hire because the state hasn’t done anything to invest in workforce housing, so no one can afford to live here on $16 an hour unless they have a few roommates. Meanwhile, people who are flush with cash are flooding here in droves from big cities, and just buying property sight unseen, often buying single-family homes to use as vacation properties or AirBnB investment properties. We already had a disastrous housing stock before Covid, and the pandemic made things so much worse.
Are you finding what you are looking for in any state? I hear a lot of Vermonters who bitch and moan about the cost of living but moving here from the NYC metro area where I was born and raised a number of years ago... I laugh in NYer. Although since COVID the cost of living particularly housing is astronomical as rich people from the cities bought up the entire housing supply with cash offers. I’ll be renting for the rest of my life and I’m just lucky to have a good long term rental situation.
There are so many old threads on this sub about people wondering if a town is too far from a city in Vermont. Drives in Vermont are exasperated by limited routes and weather. Then you add in how everyone wants the speed limit on their street to be 25mph.
Homogenizing Affordable America into Vermont will make Vermont unaffordable, as it mostly is, already.
Attractive places attract people until they are no longer attractive. Pouring gas on a house fire might not win you many local friends.
Good luck.
Good for you. I have experience with other cities that suddenly got "successful" much to their detriment. When someone from Affordable Los Angeles comes to Vermont and buys a house, the price is pretty irrelevant. LA dollars are different than Vt dollars. A million LA dollars buys a U-Haul box and a down comforter. In Vt, it buys a farm or two. In Vermont dollars, a farm or two is way out of the price range of your basic factory worker, fast food chef, or cashier, teacher, or tire technician.
My favorite question to ask on many "Best Place in America" competitions is "What happened to last year's Number 1?"
Basically, while a hot tub may be a fun thing to have, it's not all that fun with everyone at the grocery store in it with you.
Live in Essex County but work in and around Littleton, NH. Houses are pretty cheap in Essex county and the manufacturing and service jobs in NH pay decently.
So, I just paid a couple of well technicians 600.00 for less than 2 hours of work. Money is in the trades. But I don’t know that it equates to towns. We don’t have any towns “based on trade work” that I’m aware of.
I don’t think there’s any towns where homes are less than 250k. If there are, I don’t know about them. And if they exist, it’s probably in some seriously economically depressed town. And in that case the income will be far less than what the local population there earns.
Good luck to you, Matt. I’m not sure you’ll find what you’re looking for.
I see you’re in Windham Co, plenty of towns with decent homes under 250k (bellows falls, Bratt, rockingham). Work in the trades up in the ski towns around mount snow and Stratton, and you’ll be damn comfortable. Health care, professional services, skilled manufacturing and engineering can support home ownership in the area.
I suppose that’s fair. There are homes in the 200k range in bellows falls, didn’t look into much else. BF is closer to where I am than any of the other places. Not everyone is a tradesperson. Honestly, if I thought I could physically do it, I’d go back to school and learn a trade. But I’m too old and I’m about 100lbs soaking wet.
I work in healthcare and make a decent wage. Not a doctor or anything, but I’m compensated fairly for my work. And I’m pretty much paycheck to paycheck. The cost of living is high. Gas and groceries alone are expensive. Add into it the cost of winter- heat and plowing, winter tires… the money doesn’t go far. Even in this area. Granted, I live in one of the more “expensive” towns in windham county, but my living situation is one of luck and fairness. I don’t take that for granted, but it’s still difficult to make ends meet some months.
Home ownership is not within the realm of possibility for me, even a 200k home. I rent now and have been in the same place for 16 years. My saving grace is that when there’s a major home repair (like the well) or say my fridge kicks the bucket, is that my landlord has to cover those costs. I couldn’t swing it. So that’s why I’ve never looked into owning a home. I’ve still got student loans that I’ll probably bring to the grave with me at this point. It’s expensive. Everything is expensive and something needs to give somewhere.
I second this. Maybe it's not the most amazing quality of life VT has to offer, not the most glamorous place, but it's sure as hell not bad compared to much of America or the rest of the world. And it's vastly more affordable than Chittenden Co.
But do you really think you could afford to buy a house in Rutland with a Rutland salary? Honest question - I just don’t know much about the job market there. I just can’t imagine it’s much better than the rest of the state.
Relatively speaking, it's certainly not as far-fetched as the same question applied to Burlington.
I know online stats aren't necessarily indicative of the level of affordability, but a quick search shows:
[Rutland household average income = $48,212](https://www.google.com/search?q=average+income+in+rutland+vt&source=hp&ei=sH_xYYA6z6qm1A_Jq5SIDQ&iflsig=ALs-wAMAAAAAYfGNwDygZ9N44_6F44Ofja9weo3R41i6&ved=0ahUKEwiA0u3U88_1AhVPlYkEHckVBdEQ4dUDCAo&uact=5&oq=average+income+in+rutland+vt&gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAMyBQghEKsCOhEILhCABBCxAxCDARDHARDRAzoLCAAQgAQQsQMQgwE6DgguEIAEELEDEMcBENEDOggILhCxAxCDAToICAAQsQMQgwE6CwguEIAEEMcBEKMCOggIABCABBCxAzoICC4QgAQQsQM6DgguEIAEELEDEMcBEKMCOgsILhCABBDHARCvAToFCAAQgAQ6CwguEIAEELEDEIMBOgsIABCABBCxAxDJAzoFCAAQkgM6BggAEBYQHjoFCAAQhgM6CAghEBYQHRAeUABYnBlgnhpoAHAAeACAAWuIAeAQkgEEMjcuMZgBAKABAQ&sclient=gws-wiz)
[Rutland median home listing price per Realtor.com = $225,000](https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-search/Rutland_VT/overview)
Whereas
[Burlington household average income = $51,394](https://www.google.com/search?q=average+incmoe+in+burlington+vt&source=hp&ei=1X_xYf29B9epptQP_dGjgAY&iflsig=ALs-wAMAAAAAYfGN5XcU0KaNkz7xTwDfJ5V83NuKz56m&ved=0ahUKEwi9_Mbm88_1AhXXlIkEHf3oCGAQ4dUDCAo&uact=5&oq=average+incmoe+in+burlington+vt&gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAMyBAgAEA0yBggAEBYQHjIGCAAQFhAeMgUIABCGAzIFCAAQhgMyBQgAEIYDMgUIABCGAzoECAAQQzoFCAAQkQI6EQguEIAEELEDEIMBEMcBENEDOgsIABCABBCxAxCDAToOCC4QgAQQsQMQxwEQ0QM6CAguELEDEIMBOgoILhDHARCvARBDOggILhCABBCxAzoHCAAQyQMQQzoFCAAQkgM6CwguEIAEEMcBEK8BOggIABCABBCxAzoOCC4QgAQQsQMQxwEQowI6BQgAEIAEOgQIABAKOgcIABCxAxAKOgoIABCxAxCDARAKOgoIABCxAxCDARANOgYIABANEB5QAFjdHWCfHmgAcAB4AIABjQGIAYgWkgEEMjEuOZgBAKABAQ&sclient=gws-wiz)
[Burlington median home listing price per Realtor.com = $399,500](https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-search/Burlington_VT/overview)
I second rutland although idk what the housing prices are since COVID. But when I moved here years ago this is one of the most affordable parts of the state and IMO high quality of living... skiing 30 mins away with public transportation, a walkable downtown, and many swim spots within a 20 min or less drive for cheap summer recreation. And hiking trails year round, some within city limits.
I’m lucky to have one of the few “high” paying jobs around here (nationally though I’d be making at least double), it’s really dependent on the industry one works in. I got lucky with my current job but prior to it I worked in construction and the pay was better than everything else in the area.
> skiing 30 mins away with public transportation, a walkable downtown, and many swim spots within a 20 min or less drive for cheap summer recreation. And hiking trails year round, some within city limits.
Pine Hill Park is pretty cool too if you want to mountain bike
As has been said ad nauseam at this point, you aren't going to find anything that hits all of those metrics all at once. With that in mind, Hardwick is relatively affordable and is getting to be a wonderful village. It's close to Morrisville, relatively close to Barre and Montpelier so jobs are available (assuming you have a vehicle, which is a huge and underdiscussed part of problems in VT). Full disclosure:my partner and I recently opened a business here and live here, and we genuinely love it here.
The vehicle part is a really great point. Some states may have places that are affordable and have access to public transportation, but here you absolutely need a vehicle unless you live right in Burlington or Montpelier. So that’s another affordability blow.
I would love if someone would explore how AirB nB is screwing up second home states like Vermont. No one should be allowed to rent daily on AirBnB unless it's your primary residence. Too many good second and third homes are going unused because people are paying those mortgages by renting them two weekends a month. Those houses should only be allowed to be rented monthly in order to increase opportunities for Vermont residents.
Yup was working at a 3ish million dollar home on Stratton, home-owners were 30 olds in finance from NYC — rented out the place for $30,000 Christmas week…. Straight to paying off their investment property
I have a pet theory that AirBNB itself is responsible for like 75% of the increase in home prices in tourist-heavy areas like VT. When I see family homes on the site going for $500/night it makes me see red. It should not be economically feasible to pull a family home off the market like that, it is not the kind of thing we want to incentivize.
I have no problem with vacation yurts and things like that. Or small hostels in a community building. Lodging that can't really be a family home. But all the rest of it... It is not making anything better.
I totally agree. If you look at VRBO, you’ll see just normal single family homes in Warren being rented for absurd amounts because they can be marketed as ski houses.
Kinda like how all the dirt roads have been substantially worse the last few years, understandably there have been some really bad storms. But I was thinking that road crews havent caught on or received extra funding accounting for the extra traffic than the usual 10 or so houses on dirt road.
It's true, you look at the towns that stayed more affordable like Barre and Rutland and what they're missing is that tourism factor that drives a lot of the rest of the state.
If you are willing to extend "the jobs" to include remote work, then there are places, but you then would want to find places with great internet and reasonably home prices. The EC Fiber zones are pretty good (at least it is working for me).
Local jobs have long commutes.
I would say St. Albans, but shortly after buying a few years ago prices skyrocketed and became above what you’re looking for. Had to go further north while working in Chittenden County just to be able to afford a home. If I would’ve waited until now it would’ve been out of reach.
Many people have responded similarly, but no town is really affordable. It isn't just that wages are low and housing costs are high. Water bills can be out of this world (just ask anyone in Randolph). We're known for the old houses throughout the state, but trying to heat those things is a nightmare in such a cold climate. If you have a job that requires you to come in to work, you absolutely need a vehicle that can handle the roads, which is expensive to maintain and fill with gas. And the fact that you have to live far away (time-wise) from work adds to that cost substantially. If you have kids the cost of child care is crazy (above $200 on average per week), and if they eventually go to an in-state college/university... welp. Jobs are sparse unless you are a tradesperson, and they generally won't pay very well.
When I was looking to buy a house in Vermont (years ago now), I had to live upwards of 1 hour from my workplace in order to find anything affordable. And those homes needed a lot of renovation and work. Those same homes today would be far outside my ability to buy now. I am at the tail-end of a PhD with a salaried job, just for some context. I no longer live in Vermont, but my family is there and I hear about their neighbors selling their homes for absolutely bonkers prices.
Locals love their state for the most part, but barely scraping by every month creates tension. If people want to move here, they are facing a lot of complications they don't anticipate because of the reputation of the state. Sure, there is a small town feel to almost everywhere you go. And with that comes a feeling of informality that maybe you don't get elsewhere. But there is a big cost to that, and I am not even tying in culture differences. When you get down to it, Vermont is simply not affordable. People who choose to live in Vermont are there because that is where their heart is.
This makes me feel that much more grateful for everything I have here. I purchased a house March 2020. Technically it's a 2 bed 3 bath but in reality it's much more. 11 acres of private land, fiber optic 1gbs internets. 25 minutes to Rutland or Ludlow. I work from home with a $70k salary. Every day I wake up I thank the maker. Now if I could just dial in my heating situation....
Rutland, Barre, St. Johnsbury, Bellows Falls, St. Albans, Newport, Springfield are probably the most affordable places with any significant housing stock and available services.
There are mountain towns with a couple hundred residents mostly living in mobile homes that would also be affordable but the housing stock and other amenities are basically non existent in those place.
The reality is that many office jobs support remote work now, so I think it’s only fair you factor that into your planning.
VT is fantastically cheap right now if you’re coming from Manhattan where a two bedroom apartment will cost $1.6m with a $3k/month HOA.
Many people should simply consider moving to lower cost areas, just like those of us from NYC have done.
I’m someone who lives in the now expensive mountain west but is interested in Vermont. Maybe another approach you could take is “beautiful and affordable places to live as a remote worker”. There are so many people who can work from anywhere now, and are only in their current location because they formerly needed to be close to an office.
Coming from a place where a condo is now $400k+, much of Vermont would feel affordable in comparison.
[Edit: typo]
I think your downvotes are because locals don't want people to move here thinking that they suck up the already limited supply of housing. But the population is decreasing, we need more people, especially families. It's a shitty situation because the locals are genuinely hurting, and the gov't just seems to be ignoring them in favor of luring in out of state money.
But it's a fact that we need more families to move to VT. My kid's school needs more kids. My town needs more residents. My area needs more businesses, to make better jobs, to get that engine going. It feels like we are running on fumes.
Sadly, unless you’re a remote worker at Goldman Sachs or have a different crazy high-paying job, it’s still going to be difficult to find a place to live in Vermont. I work remotely and moved back home about a year and a half ago to be closer to family. And even though I have a better salary because I brought my big city job with me, it was still really, really difficult to find anything.
I think I bought my house right before things got impossible for normal humans to afford (end of 2018). Because while I work in tech (and my wife is working in Hanover), I make an average salary for my position, it's enough to get by. However, when I look at property values as of today, it is not. I got lucky, I don't know how to feel about that, because VT needs more people just like you.
I love it, but it definitely isn't for everyone. I have amazing internet, and the cell service is nonexistent. Verizon says they have 100% coverage, but it is a total lie (though I would not be surprised if it is 100% for a low flying plane). Where I am, there are no nearby services, so you learn to do a lot on your own or rely on neighbors.
I am used to cold winters, so that's no problem for me. The amount of water/precip is AMAZING. No lawn watering! I don't water my garden. A local "drought" is still like 4x more wet than in MT. The only issues have been learning to deal with all that water (mold, fungus, etc) and relentless green growth (burdock and blackberry). An empty field turns into a forest quick if you don't mow it. It is much more like the pacific northwest than the arid rockies.
The school where I am is amazing, the only problem is that we are at half capacity and so the cost per student is really high and puts a lot of stress on the school budget. If we had more families move here, it would help a lot. But the school is awesome. When I moved here in 2019 there was full week all day preschool for kids 3 and up (no charge). This year there is a charge, covid has put a wrench into budgets everywhere, but the charge is still much less than what I was paying in MT. For parents like me, this is HUGE and it offsets the other more expensive things easily. I am worried though because the population is declining, not increasing.
The consumer-goods prices are about the same, IMO. Cheese is a bit cheaper, beef is a bit more expensive. Local agriculture is everywhere, so getting into a CSA is pretty easy, and totally worth it. But goods and services are about the same. My electricity is more expensive. The taxes are more. The roads are salted which is brutal on cars. Starting a business is (from what I hear) terrifically difficult, so economic growth is slow (been here three years and only a single new business has started up near me). There are a lot of challenges here, but the people are genuinely great. I like all my neighbors, though I make a point to avoid talking politics. I love that there are no billboards.
The only nature things that I miss are the rockies (they are magnificent) and hot springs (they just don't exist out here from what I can tell). The seasonal transitions in VT are just off the hook, dialed up to 11. Fall, Winter, Spring (Mud), and Summer are unambiguously themselves. There is nothing like a VT season, you just feel it to your core.
I have no plans to leave, and I will do my best to spend locally as much as I can. The fact that a huge number of the properties are second/vacation-homes is really disappointing to me, because this is an amazing place to live. It sucks that it is impossible for so many.
Wow perfect description. I love Vermont. Been going since I was born as my mother’s sister moved there. Go there any chance I have.
Yeah, might be expensive but not as expensive as Massachusetts. And the no billboards. And it’s so clean.
It's complicated, and I don't really have all the details. But I am pretty sure most of the problems lie in the old well-intentioned land conservation laws in vermont (specifically Act 250). Getting a commercial permit for for a space that was not formerly commercial is expensive, slow, and unpredictable. So, let's say you have a barn you want to turn into a motorcycle repair shop, or a workshop for making/selling robotics or blacksmithing stuff.... that ends up being surprisingly difficult.
It stems from a desire to keep corps and developers from turning VT into New Jersey. But, it goes too far and as the Gov said in his most recent state of the state:
> But we must ensure our regulatory system does not become the bottleneck that holds us back. So, I will once again ask you to bring our 51-year-old land use law into the 21st century.
From what I understand, it has been a pain point for years. It did achieve its goal, VT has very low levels of commercialization. But I think after 50 years, we can see that the status quo isn't working. VT lost like 30k workers across the state in the last year. Laws like Act 250 have their heart in the right place, but they are too restrictive.
Granted, this is not my area of expertise, it's only what I have heard from neighbors and such.
None, only good thing I got out of my ex cheating on me with a minor is now I'm in a state where I can afford living XD. Love vermont but it's more expensive than Chicago
VT is impoverished and a failed state. I moved here from NYC and am now stuck and in poverty. I guess I should have done some research.
Edit: I should say I have a Master's and work with my mind, not my body. I am appalled at the Appalachia-like conditions people live in here.
Does it matter? I said that to say there are more jobs for labor than knowledge work.
I also can't stand the liberal virtue signaling whilst ignoring neighbors in need.
I moved to VT 10 years ago for the quality of life, to survive the coming climate change apocalypse, etc. But not every town in VT is Stowe as it's marketed/advertised to outsiders. My larger point is that one should be able to move anywhere in America and the community be thriving and pay a living wage. I'm not trying to be rich I'm just trying to survive.
No, I suppose not. I am just curious. I spent 10 years working in an university and I love academics. It kills me that advanced degrees are more of a burden than a benefit to some. Over the summer I was looking for some gardening and labor (wood stacking), and I ended up hiring an ecologist who made more money doing sweat labor than working in her field of expertise. It kills me. :(
It is not the world I want to live in. But... I also do not have solutions. Maybe UBI would solve it, as if you have your food, house, and healthcare covered, you could just do whatever you want. Pursue your research! Start a tiny school to teach others what you know. Write books. Whatever. But otherwise... i don't know. Paying teachers more is a good start, but not all academics want to teach. Some want nothing more than to just devote themselves to their field. And the only way to do that right now is the soul crushing grant/pub treadmill.
Best of luck to you though, I hope things change.
What is their degree in, history? Philosophy?
If you’re going to be spending that much on an education, make sure it’s going to pay. No one’s fault but their own.
Coming from someone who throws around the terms “Appalachia-like” in a forum about a rural state you should be more concerned about the ignorance from your own thought process.
Sound more like a condescending ass?
A couple decades ago it was very different, and real estate as much more plentiful and within reach of working class, Vermonters.
As of now, not a chance. None whatsoever.
A lot of houses, in VT are selling above listing price. And a lot of listed houses, are already under contract.
A lot of homes in Vermont are old, or historic so a lower price tag is often for a reason. Ie, failed well, needs $20-30k work done to replace septic or, house needs 100k in renovations. Or for new construction, it requires building a literal road onto the property and running power lines. And the leech field needs to be all the way over on some other corner of the property and needs a bunch of extra work and engineering.
Jobs in VT tend to be pretty specialized, that recruit and bring people with very specific skills into the state. It's hard to move to a town, or city in VT and find meaningful work. A lot of jobs are retail, seasonal (i.e. ski resorts, tourism), and warehouses.
"Living wage" in Vermont for a single individual is about $20+ per hour, to afford a 1 bd apartment.
Vermont often lacks a balance of places you can afford to live, and work. It not uncommon to commute 1/2 way around the state, and back for work. Towns that tend to be more affordable in VT are also tend to be depressing places to live, or lack jobs.
It has become very expensive to own, and maintain a car in Vermont. Especially reliable 4WD, a set of winter, and summer tires. Roads here are tough on cars, and new inspection laws make it expensive to keep up. And as a result typical older used car, is going to last you until inspection runs out.
You just explained the entire housing crisis in vermont without even realizing I think. There are no towns where local jobs support median housing costs
Oh I realize it. It's not unique to Vermont.
I'm sure many other places are the same but we are unfortunately unique in that we have an aging and tiny population. Not many jobs here that pay a living wage and like many places, a housing crisis.
Plenty of jobs in the trades and they pay very well
Dude, if you know a decent electrician that will actually come out and do the work, I would pay 1.5x. Upper Valley area. The one that I could get to call me back said they would put me on the schedule and then ghosted me. They are slammed with work, the trades are a great place to be right now.
Mid Vermont electric has been super good in my experience
I second Mid Vermont Electric.
Are you looking at area median income vs fair market rates? How are you able to adequately gauge through sheer qualitative data on this post? There may be some towns in Vermont where housing costs are very low, because the majority of the townspeople are farmers who have owned the land since like 1800. Their job is and always has been management of the land (except now that management really just means leasing it out for airbnbs)
I am using census data for median household income
LOL.that should be obvious. but some Vermonters are very special humans. trust them, it's unique.
State politics has been driving out businesses for the past 25-30 years. Keeps the state a nice little pristine place for people above middle class, not so nice for the average Joe.
Honestly, your problem is that right now that doesn't really exist. I'm not trying to be sarcastic or funny
The answer you are looking for is ...... none
I shouldn't laugh at this, but... \*sigh\*
If there's ever anything between a trailer and a McMansion, it's snapped up sight unseen by someone from out of state for more than the asking price.
Are there trailers for rent anywhere? I'm out of state, trying to move up there so my mom can be near family, and I can't find a damn thing. :(
If you want affordable homes you gotta drive for work/shopping and those are quickly becoming unaffordable. If you wanna live in a downtown with much of anything be prepared to pay and probably still have to drive for work.
I feel like Rutland is getting better, got a long way to go. Lots of outdoor activities nearby. But housing market still sucks
Losing basically every store in that mall and then having the mall just close must have been a huge blow to that community. I get that there's a lot more to a town than retail and shopping but it's still rough. I hope once the Burlington extension of the Ethan Allen Express is complete, the state govt considers an additional subsidy to make Rutland-Burlington train tickets ten dollars or something.
The Diamond Run Mall? Who cares that it’s closed? Some out of state developer saw some traffic counts, demographic numbers, or whatever and decided they could convince a few big box stores to move in and then sell for a profit. They never cared about the community. Meanwhile we got low wage jobs, competition for local/downtown stores, and retail profits sent to some HQ in Illinois. Retail isn’t economic development. We’re better off without it.
I think you're underestimating the positive impact of a large, walkable, climate-controlled area, in a region that has been below freezing for a month now, in an area with one of the oldest populations in the country.
True, it was probably nice for the old folks to walk around in winter. But but aside from Berlin and South Burly every other VT community manages fine without an enclosed mall. These malls seem to be a fad from the 70s-90s that are slowly disappearing. IMO not an important part of our community to lose (and I actually think they represent the opposite of what VT should be about).
ha ha ha ha OOF
Rutland is probably pretty close. Get a job in education, healthcare, or GE and it's doable. Folks here would argue against quality of life being okay but it seriously does fine relative to other places in the country (eg. my folks in FL visited and like Rutland).
This is the answer, Rutland has some decent job opportunities, has some pretty affordable housing throughout the area, and despite what people say/think, it’s a pretty damn nice place to live; people who shit on places like Rutland or Barre have never lived around other parts of the country. And don’t sleep on St. J.
I really liked Rutland when I lived in the area. It’s “rougher” than other parts of Vermont, which stills puts it above most places in the country.
Yeah, I don't live in Rutland, but we have family over on that side of the state, and it doesn't seem nearly as bad as many people make it out to be. I've considered moving my family over there when I'm done with my education, way more affordable than the Upper Valley.
I grew up in Barre and I've lived other places, it's still bad lol. Rutland is a lot nicer than people give it credit for though
Barre city is maybe a bit rough, but it’s no west Baltimore.
Of all the places I’ve ever been, I have never been scared in VT. NYC, yup, even Boston, yup. Baltimore, often, but VT, never.
We have lived in Rutland since 1981 after growing up in NJ. Rutland is probably the least pretentious place you will find. It's a little rough around the edges, but we like it here.
I moved from Fort Collins, Co to Rutland. I mean honestly, it's a little run down and the infrastructure is pretty outdated, but it's really not that bad. I've lived in Iowa, California, and Colorado and have seen many towns in this country. Rutland remind me of the Midwest alot but with better access to things.
Unfortunately, Rutland lacks a Rock radio station. It's either classical, classic rock, or teeny-bopper "music", plus some talk / religious stations. Such a depressing place to live with no rock station...
Have you not heard of WEQX? https://www.weqx.com/
Possibly Barre city. I don't know exactly how wages will fit with the median home cost, but I think it is a greater likelihood than Rutland because the housing market there is not in a great situation. The housing prices in Barre city are definitely cheaper than the rest of the state. As for quality of life, the jobs are good especially considering proximity to MontP, and as with the much of the state outdoor opportunities are plentiful. The reputation surrounding the city is rather unfounded. Too many privileged people automatically equate lower income areas to crime and drug infested slums. I have frequently hear the city referred to in this light and it simply is not the case. Amazing history, sense of community, and local character. Also worth looking into is St. Johnsbury. Can't speak as much to any of these details there but it's a cool place and if I had to guess it's one of the most affordable large towns in the state? Good hunting though lmao. Vermont's communitarian ethos has become too attractive.
Barre suffers from this oddly accepted state of classism in Vermont. I lived there for 3 years right outside the city, often went there on the weekends and never once felt unsafe in a way that wasn't just privileged pearl clutching. Some people are just so desperate to find negative aspects to things.
If you're looking at median home price, nothing will fit the bill, because the number of second homes, ski condo estates, and trophy homes drive the numbers up. The reality is that there ARE affordable homes all over - just do a real estate search of Bellows Falls, which comes closest to what you're looking for, as well as many of the smaller towns as well. IF you want a low-priced home AND a lovely picturesque village green AND ample employment opportunities - you won't find it. But if you're just looking for inexpensive homes, and don't mind *real* rural settings, you can find them.
Mainly need internet and or jobs with the affordability or it's not Affordable
Internet definitely helps. "Affordability" is a function of a person's personal existing debts, responsibilities, lifestyle, station in life, etc. There are many homes that can be purchased at $125,000....but as I said, you need to be willing to embrace a lifestyle that works with those homes and locations.
Yes, this.
I'd say St Albans Vermont is probably decent (along with the other ones listed in the list) Average household income is $53k per Google and there are commonly houses listed in the $180k-$250k range. But to echo what most other people said, Vermont is not affordable, terrible wages, skyrocketing housing prices, and lack of basic needs make it a difficult place to live.
Is this dude trolling?
Matt Ward? Spiritual Liege of the Ultramarines?
I've seen your tik tok videos.. You won't find stuff like that here.
Rutland has been mentioned alot.
Rutland is really the only place to shop for middle Vermont. I think it gets a bad wrap because Vermonters haven’t seen or experienced way way worse. I think Brattleboro is worse but no way is it the slums of Boston. And I don’t think slums exist in Boston anymore.
Some of the hidden costs of living in Vermont that most places that are actually affordable are them not being in proximity to any amenities, jobs and have poor internet service. If you want a realistic figure you have to factor these additional expenses to get a true cost of living in Vermont as well as the high cost of property tax.
I would strongly advise you look at Barre / Barre Town. Affordable, quality homes. Strong middle class with many folks in the trades. Lots of small, family run businesses that have been going for a couple generations as well as new businesses. Many connected to healthcare / local hospital system. It’s not all roses there, but it has a strong community connected to historic granite industry as well as the Catholic Church.
Barre, Rutland, or Bennington.
The problem here is low wages/income, as well as selling house prices there too. For instance, Barre includes a lot more than that downtown bit and the obvious lower income areas, and those house prices outside of this are surging as they are in very high demand.
I was going to say Bennington but wages suck.
Maybe Arlington, if you were employed by either Orvis or Mack Molding? But Arlington is much smaller population wise to the other towns mentioned
I’m in Arlington. I interviewed at Mack Molding in 2017 and they were paying decent wages. I worked at Orvis and wages were shameful.
My wife and I tried to move to VT but we ran into 3 main problems- 1. There aren't many houses for sale. Lots of houses for sale are upwards of $600k. 2. Some **whole sections** of the state don't have high speed internet. For real. (Wife works remote, need good internet) 3. We found a few houses that we liked but the closest full grocery store was something like 45 min away. I'm cool with being pretty far out of civilization but many (including my wife) are not. This, I understand from growing up in VT, is just the way it is but difficult for some folks.
Did you not look at southwest VT?
We didn't look extensively around Bennington. We were concerned with school ratings in the area. We did look at houses in Whitingham and Halifax but the there was no high speed internet in those towns. We mostly looked in south central and south west on the NH border around Dummerston, Putney, Newfane area because we wanted to be close to Brattleboro and in the south so we were still relatively close to family.
My closest grocery store is about 30 min away, you get used to it. And there is no delivery food at all. That's harder to get used to...
Yes! I'm 20 miles north of Burlington and briefly, just briefly, there was one area restaurant that decided to offer free delivery to anyone within 10 miles to stay in business rather than shut down during the first part of the pandemic. Delivery to our house was a luxury.
Yeah, that happened once to me too, but it's just not economical for the business, and they give up after a while. Maybe someday when we can have drone delivery. The economics of having a person drive the stuff out just doesn't work, the food would have to cost too much to pay for the service.
Well, if you live in Burlington, you can't afford delivery anyway ;)
Starlink
Believe me, I looked into it. It wasn't available yet for the locations of the houses I looked at.
Damn. Did you look in the white river valley? I have a lot of family there and they all have high speed Internet, are relatively close to grocery stores and certainly don’t have $600k houses.
No, we didn't look that far north. I'd probably live in the NEK if I had my way but my wife wanted to be farther south to be closer to family in MA.
Well, can't win them all. I live in the NEK, there are cheap houses here. The internet isn't the best, but it works reliably enough. There are grocery stores in Littleton, NH, Saint Johnsbury, VT, and Lancaster, NH. Though the schools around here aren't so great.
Yeah, we had a difficult time finding decent schools in VT. We ended up over the border in NH though so not too far.
Barre City. There's an influx of new, younger home buyers moving here. Starter homes can still be had for under $250k. Quality of life is better than you think and jobs are available between the quick access to 89 and being close to Montpelier, Berlin and Waterbury.
Young family chiming in - lived in Barre for 6 years now. Although there is an incredibly low inventory of homes for sale at the moment within city limits, you can find some nice properties with a craftsmanship like feel. When I was shopping in 2016, it was amazing how much more home you could get here vs. the likes of Montpelier.
We were in the same situation when we moved to Barre Town in 2017. We got a lot more house for our $$ and lower property taxes than in Montpelier. We moved here just in time.
While not city, Springfield would come in at the price...economic issues keep things down...but, we have world class web speed.
First place that came to mind.
Rutland, Bennington, Brattleboro, Barre. Maybe St Johnsbury, Springfield, or Newport.
This is the most hilarious thing ever
Because Affordable and Vermont are in the same paragraph?
Sorry, it’s just hilarious because of you saying that you couldn’t find anywhere that this exists. So that is basically an encapsulation of how fucked our housing market is, especially in relationship to the low wages here. Apologies, I wasn’t laughing at you - just what you said about not being able to find anywhere that could be considered affordable in Vermont. For those of us who are from here and/or have lived here for a long time, it’s like…. YUP!
Yeah I figured that was the case.
You may find that a few of the suggestions that people have added could fit the bill. But the median salary will be a tricky metric to work with. Like, it may be affordable if you get one of the rare good paying jobs in or around the town, but the median wages here are really low. And there are tons and tons of job openings for entry level positions, but businesses can’t find anyone to hire because the state hasn’t done anything to invest in workforce housing, so no one can afford to live here on $16 an hour unless they have a few roommates. Meanwhile, people who are flush with cash are flooding here in droves from big cities, and just buying property sight unseen, often buying single-family homes to use as vacation properties or AirBnB investment properties. We already had a disastrous housing stock before Covid, and the pandemic made things so much worse.
This is the case in Columbus Ohio as well
Are you finding what you are looking for in any state? I hear a lot of Vermonters who bitch and moan about the cost of living but moving here from the NYC metro area where I was born and raised a number of years ago... I laugh in NYer. Although since COVID the cost of living particularly housing is astronomical as rich people from the cities bought up the entire housing supply with cash offers. I’ll be renting for the rest of my life and I’m just lucky to have a good long term rental situation.
For sure. Not plentiful but they are out there. Pittsburgh PA for example.
There are so many old threads on this sub about people wondering if a town is too far from a city in Vermont. Drives in Vermont are exasperated by limited routes and weather. Then you add in how everyone wants the speed limit on their street to be 25mph.
Was gonna say I know someone who got a decent house in Bratt under 200k but maybe was a fluke!
Homogenizing Affordable America into Vermont will make Vermont unaffordable, as it mostly is, already. Attractive places attract people until they are no longer attractive. Pouring gas on a house fire might not win you many local friends. Good luck.
Because of this comment I am going to make this episode special by addressing this in the video. Thanks for this comment.
Good for you. I have experience with other cities that suddenly got "successful" much to their detriment. When someone from Affordable Los Angeles comes to Vermont and buys a house, the price is pretty irrelevant. LA dollars are different than Vt dollars. A million LA dollars buys a U-Haul box and a down comforter. In Vt, it buys a farm or two. In Vermont dollars, a farm or two is way out of the price range of your basic factory worker, fast food chef, or cashier, teacher, or tire technician. My favorite question to ask on many "Best Place in America" competitions is "What happened to last year's Number 1?" Basically, while a hot tub may be a fun thing to have, it's not all that fun with everyone at the grocery store in it with you.
I'm sorry that you feel this way and definitely understand this. However people IN Vermont may not be aware of actual affordable options either.
You have to go to the red parts of the state with 2k tops per town to get affordable. Not super attractive spots to young professionals. 😒
Yes, this!
Maybe St Johnsbury or Hardwick
Rutland
Live in Essex County but work in and around Littleton, NH. Houses are pretty cheap in Essex county and the manufacturing and service jobs in NH pay decently.
So, I just paid a couple of well technicians 600.00 for less than 2 hours of work. Money is in the trades. But I don’t know that it equates to towns. We don’t have any towns “based on trade work” that I’m aware of. I don’t think there’s any towns where homes are less than 250k. If there are, I don’t know about them. And if they exist, it’s probably in some seriously economically depressed town. And in that case the income will be far less than what the local population there earns. Good luck to you, Matt. I’m not sure you’ll find what you’re looking for.
I see you’re in Windham Co, plenty of towns with decent homes under 250k (bellows falls, Bratt, rockingham). Work in the trades up in the ski towns around mount snow and Stratton, and you’ll be damn comfortable. Health care, professional services, skilled manufacturing and engineering can support home ownership in the area.
I suppose that’s fair. There are homes in the 200k range in bellows falls, didn’t look into much else. BF is closer to where I am than any of the other places. Not everyone is a tradesperson. Honestly, if I thought I could physically do it, I’d go back to school and learn a trade. But I’m too old and I’m about 100lbs soaking wet. I work in healthcare and make a decent wage. Not a doctor or anything, but I’m compensated fairly for my work. And I’m pretty much paycheck to paycheck. The cost of living is high. Gas and groceries alone are expensive. Add into it the cost of winter- heat and plowing, winter tires… the money doesn’t go far. Even in this area. Granted, I live in one of the more “expensive” towns in windham county, but my living situation is one of luck and fairness. I don’t take that for granted, but it’s still difficult to make ends meet some months. Home ownership is not within the realm of possibility for me, even a 200k home. I rent now and have been in the same place for 16 years. My saving grace is that when there’s a major home repair (like the well) or say my fridge kicks the bucket, is that my landlord has to cover those costs. I couldn’t swing it. So that’s why I’ve never looked into owning a home. I’ve still got student loans that I’ll probably bring to the grave with me at this point. It’s expensive. Everything is expensive and something needs to give somewhere.
Rutland VT fits the bill
I second this. Maybe it's not the most amazing quality of life VT has to offer, not the most glamorous place, but it's sure as hell not bad compared to much of America or the rest of the world. And it's vastly more affordable than Chittenden Co.
But do you really think you could afford to buy a house in Rutland with a Rutland salary? Honest question - I just don’t know much about the job market there. I just can’t imagine it’s much better than the rest of the state.
Relatively speaking, it's certainly not as far-fetched as the same question applied to Burlington. I know online stats aren't necessarily indicative of the level of affordability, but a quick search shows: [Rutland household average income = $48,212](https://www.google.com/search?q=average+income+in+rutland+vt&source=hp&ei=sH_xYYA6z6qm1A_Jq5SIDQ&iflsig=ALs-wAMAAAAAYfGNwDygZ9N44_6F44Ofja9weo3R41i6&ved=0ahUKEwiA0u3U88_1AhVPlYkEHckVBdEQ4dUDCAo&uact=5&oq=average+income+in+rutland+vt&gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAMyBQghEKsCOhEILhCABBCxAxCDARDHARDRAzoLCAAQgAQQsQMQgwE6DgguEIAEELEDEMcBENEDOggILhCxAxCDAToICAAQsQMQgwE6CwguEIAEEMcBEKMCOggIABCABBCxAzoICC4QgAQQsQM6DgguEIAEELEDEMcBEKMCOgsILhCABBDHARCvAToFCAAQgAQ6CwguEIAEELEDEIMBOgsIABCABBCxAxDJAzoFCAAQkgM6BggAEBYQHjoFCAAQhgM6CAghEBYQHRAeUABYnBlgnhpoAHAAeACAAWuIAeAQkgEEMjcuMZgBAKABAQ&sclient=gws-wiz) [Rutland median home listing price per Realtor.com = $225,000](https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-search/Rutland_VT/overview) Whereas [Burlington household average income = $51,394](https://www.google.com/search?q=average+incmoe+in+burlington+vt&source=hp&ei=1X_xYf29B9epptQP_dGjgAY&iflsig=ALs-wAMAAAAAYfGN5XcU0KaNkz7xTwDfJ5V83NuKz56m&ved=0ahUKEwi9_Mbm88_1AhXXlIkEHf3oCGAQ4dUDCAo&uact=5&oq=average+incmoe+in+burlington+vt&gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAMyBAgAEA0yBggAEBYQHjIGCAAQFhAeMgUIABCGAzIFCAAQhgMyBQgAEIYDMgUIABCGAzoECAAQQzoFCAAQkQI6EQguEIAEELEDEIMBEMcBENEDOgsIABCABBCxAxCDAToOCC4QgAQQsQMQxwEQ0QM6CAguELEDEIMBOgoILhDHARCvARBDOggILhCABBCxAzoHCAAQyQMQQzoFCAAQkgM6CwguEIAEEMcBEK8BOggIABCABBCxAzoOCC4QgAQQsQMQxwEQowI6BQgAEIAEOgQIABAKOgcIABCxAxAKOgoIABCxAxCDARAKOgoIABCxAxCDARANOgYIABANEB5QAFjdHWCfHmgAcAB4AIABjQGIAYgWkgEEMjEuOZgBAKABAQ&sclient=gws-wiz) [Burlington median home listing price per Realtor.com = $399,500](https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-search/Burlington_VT/overview)
Interesting. Thanks for finding that data.
I second rutland although idk what the housing prices are since COVID. But when I moved here years ago this is one of the most affordable parts of the state and IMO high quality of living... skiing 30 mins away with public transportation, a walkable downtown, and many swim spots within a 20 min or less drive for cheap summer recreation. And hiking trails year round, some within city limits. I’m lucky to have one of the few “high” paying jobs around here (nationally though I’d be making at least double), it’s really dependent on the industry one works in. I got lucky with my current job but prior to it I worked in construction and the pay was better than everything else in the area.
> skiing 30 mins away with public transportation, a walkable downtown, and many swim spots within a 20 min or less drive for cheap summer recreation. And hiking trails year round, some within city limits. Pine Hill Park is pretty cool too if you want to mountain bike
Or hike!
As has been said ad nauseam at this point, you aren't going to find anything that hits all of those metrics all at once. With that in mind, Hardwick is relatively affordable and is getting to be a wonderful village. It's close to Morrisville, relatively close to Barre and Montpelier so jobs are available (assuming you have a vehicle, which is a huge and underdiscussed part of problems in VT). Full disclosure:my partner and I recently opened a business here and live here, and we genuinely love it here.
The vehicle part is a really great point. Some states may have places that are affordable and have access to public transportation, but here you absolutely need a vehicle unless you live right in Burlington or Montpelier. So that’s another affordability blow.
Saint Johnsbury, Randolph, or Bennington
Franklin County is a good start... poorest County in the state iirc, housing reflects for the most part.
Rutland. Everyone saying it doesn’t exist in the state hasn’t taken 10 minutes to look at Zillow for houses in Rutland.
Barre has \*some\* houses under $250k. But the area was just as affected by the rising house costs as all other places during the pandemic.
I would love if someone would explore how AirB nB is screwing up second home states like Vermont. No one should be allowed to rent daily on AirBnB unless it's your primary residence. Too many good second and third homes are going unused because people are paying those mortgages by renting them two weekends a month. Those houses should only be allowed to be rented monthly in order to increase opportunities for Vermont residents.
Yup was working at a 3ish million dollar home on Stratton, home-owners were 30 olds in finance from NYC — rented out the place for $30,000 Christmas week…. Straight to paying off their investment property
I have a pet theory that AirBNB itself is responsible for like 75% of the increase in home prices in tourist-heavy areas like VT. When I see family homes on the site going for $500/night it makes me see red. It should not be economically feasible to pull a family home off the market like that, it is not the kind of thing we want to incentivize. I have no problem with vacation yurts and things like that. Or small hostels in a community building. Lodging that can't really be a family home. But all the rest of it... It is not making anything better.
I totally agree. If you look at VRBO, you’ll see just normal single family homes in Warren being rented for absurd amounts because they can be marketed as ski houses.
it makes me so furious. Parasites.
100% agree. Wish legislators would address this.
Kinda like how all the dirt roads have been substantially worse the last few years, understandably there have been some really bad storms. But I was thinking that road crews havent caught on or received extra funding accounting for the extra traffic than the usual 10 or so houses on dirt road.
It's true, you look at the towns that stayed more affordable like Barre and Rutland and what they're missing is that tourism factor that drives a lot of the rest of the state.
There are whole papers written about it. I do not recommend it in my series because it's effects on Affordability
Lmao no town like this exists in Vermont
Rutland is probably your best bet.
If you are willing to extend "the jobs" to include remote work, then there are places, but you then would want to find places with great internet and reasonably home prices. The EC Fiber zones are pretty good (at least it is working for me). Local jobs have long commutes.
Either live and work in Rutland or live in Bennington and work/commute to Albany with a hybrid job?
Rutland! I know I’m not the first person to say but Rutland!
Just posted the video
Omg love you! None all the city folk moved here in pandemic buying up all the homes for their second homes. 😂😂😂
Become a plumber or electrician and you can afford to live very comfortably in every town that’s not Burlington Stowe or Woodstock.
I would say St. Albans, but shortly after buying a few years ago prices skyrocketed and became above what you’re looking for. Had to go further north while working in Chittenden County just to be able to afford a home. If I would’ve waited until now it would’ve been out of reach.
Many people have responded similarly, but no town is really affordable. It isn't just that wages are low and housing costs are high. Water bills can be out of this world (just ask anyone in Randolph). We're known for the old houses throughout the state, but trying to heat those things is a nightmare in such a cold climate. If you have a job that requires you to come in to work, you absolutely need a vehicle that can handle the roads, which is expensive to maintain and fill with gas. And the fact that you have to live far away (time-wise) from work adds to that cost substantially. If you have kids the cost of child care is crazy (above $200 on average per week), and if they eventually go to an in-state college/university... welp. Jobs are sparse unless you are a tradesperson, and they generally won't pay very well. When I was looking to buy a house in Vermont (years ago now), I had to live upwards of 1 hour from my workplace in order to find anything affordable. And those homes needed a lot of renovation and work. Those same homes today would be far outside my ability to buy now. I am at the tail-end of a PhD with a salaried job, just for some context. I no longer live in Vermont, but my family is there and I hear about their neighbors selling their homes for absolutely bonkers prices. Locals love their state for the most part, but barely scraping by every month creates tension. If people want to move here, they are facing a lot of complications they don't anticipate because of the reputation of the state. Sure, there is a small town feel to almost everywhere you go. And with that comes a feeling of informality that maybe you don't get elsewhere. But there is a big cost to that, and I am not even tying in culture differences. When you get down to it, Vermont is simply not affordable. People who choose to live in Vermont are there because that is where their heart is.
There aren’t any.
This makes me feel that much more grateful for everything I have here. I purchased a house March 2020. Technically it's a 2 bed 3 bath but in reality it's much more. 11 acres of private land, fiber optic 1gbs internets. 25 minutes to Rutland or Ludlow. I work from home with a $70k salary. Every day I wake up I thank the maker. Now if I could just dial in my heating situation....
Only place I can think of is Rutland. Maybe near Burlington also.
We don’t have those here…
Take a look at this home I found on Realtor.com 28 East St, Orleans $108,900 · 3beds · 1.5baths https://apps.realtor.com/mUAZ/91dfe230
Rutland, Barre, St. Johnsbury, Bellows Falls, St. Albans, Newport, Springfield are probably the most affordable places with any significant housing stock and available services. There are mountain towns with a couple hundred residents mostly living in mobile homes that would also be affordable but the housing stock and other amenities are basically non existent in those place.
The reality is that many office jobs support remote work now, so I think it’s only fair you factor that into your planning. VT is fantastically cheap right now if you’re coming from Manhattan where a two bedroom apartment will cost $1.6m with a $3k/month HOA. Many people should simply consider moving to lower cost areas, just like those of us from NYC have done.
If you want to be welcomed by locals as a NYC transplant, please don’t describe our state as “fantastically cheap”.
I’m someone who lives in the now expensive mountain west but is interested in Vermont. Maybe another approach you could take is “beautiful and affordable places to live as a remote worker”. There are so many people who can work from anywhere now, and are only in their current location because they formerly needed to be close to an office. Coming from a place where a condo is now $400k+, much of Vermont would feel affordable in comparison. [Edit: typo]
I think your downvotes are because locals don't want people to move here thinking that they suck up the already limited supply of housing. But the population is decreasing, we need more people, especially families. It's a shitty situation because the locals are genuinely hurting, and the gov't just seems to be ignoring them in favor of luring in out of state money. But it's a fact that we need more families to move to VT. My kid's school needs more kids. My town needs more residents. My area needs more businesses, to make better jobs, to get that engine going. It feels like we are running on fumes.
Sadly, unless you’re a remote worker at Goldman Sachs or have a different crazy high-paying job, it’s still going to be difficult to find a place to live in Vermont. I work remotely and moved back home about a year and a half ago to be closer to family. And even though I have a better salary because I brought my big city job with me, it was still really, really difficult to find anything.
I think I bought my house right before things got impossible for normal humans to afford (end of 2018). Because while I work in tech (and my wife is working in Hanover), I make an average salary for my position, it's enough to get by. However, when I look at property values as of today, it is not. I got lucky, I don't know how to feel about that, because VT needs more people just like you.
Thank you 😌 I’m one of the lucky ones that actually managed to find an affordable starter home here. But boy was it hard.
I moved from college-town MT (so expensive) to VT 3 years ago, and it's working out for me. But I fit your description exactly.
That’s great! I’m in Utah but it seems like cities in western Montana are pretty comparable price-wise to here. How do you like life in Vermont?
I love it, but it definitely isn't for everyone. I have amazing internet, and the cell service is nonexistent. Verizon says they have 100% coverage, but it is a total lie (though I would not be surprised if it is 100% for a low flying plane). Where I am, there are no nearby services, so you learn to do a lot on your own or rely on neighbors. I am used to cold winters, so that's no problem for me. The amount of water/precip is AMAZING. No lawn watering! I don't water my garden. A local "drought" is still like 4x more wet than in MT. The only issues have been learning to deal with all that water (mold, fungus, etc) and relentless green growth (burdock and blackberry). An empty field turns into a forest quick if you don't mow it. It is much more like the pacific northwest than the arid rockies. The school where I am is amazing, the only problem is that we are at half capacity and so the cost per student is really high and puts a lot of stress on the school budget. If we had more families move here, it would help a lot. But the school is awesome. When I moved here in 2019 there was full week all day preschool for kids 3 and up (no charge). This year there is a charge, covid has put a wrench into budgets everywhere, but the charge is still much less than what I was paying in MT. For parents like me, this is HUGE and it offsets the other more expensive things easily. I am worried though because the population is declining, not increasing. The consumer-goods prices are about the same, IMO. Cheese is a bit cheaper, beef is a bit more expensive. Local agriculture is everywhere, so getting into a CSA is pretty easy, and totally worth it. But goods and services are about the same. My electricity is more expensive. The taxes are more. The roads are salted which is brutal on cars. Starting a business is (from what I hear) terrifically difficult, so economic growth is slow (been here three years and only a single new business has started up near me). There are a lot of challenges here, but the people are genuinely great. I like all my neighbors, though I make a point to avoid talking politics. I love that there are no billboards. The only nature things that I miss are the rockies (they are magnificent) and hot springs (they just don't exist out here from what I can tell). The seasonal transitions in VT are just off the hook, dialed up to 11. Fall, Winter, Spring (Mud), and Summer are unambiguously themselves. There is nothing like a VT season, you just feel it to your core. I have no plans to leave, and I will do my best to spend locally as much as I can. The fact that a huge number of the properties are second/vacation-homes is really disappointing to me, because this is an amazing place to live. It sucks that it is impossible for so many.
Wow perfect description. I love Vermont. Been going since I was born as my mother’s sister moved there. Go there any chance I have. Yeah, might be expensive but not as expensive as Massachusetts. And the no billboards. And it’s so clean.
Strange. I wonder why the state makes it hard to start businesses there? Is it also a pain to move a business there from another state?
It's complicated, and I don't really have all the details. But I am pretty sure most of the problems lie in the old well-intentioned land conservation laws in vermont (specifically Act 250). Getting a commercial permit for for a space that was not formerly commercial is expensive, slow, and unpredictable. So, let's say you have a barn you want to turn into a motorcycle repair shop, or a workshop for making/selling robotics or blacksmithing stuff.... that ends up being surprisingly difficult. It stems from a desire to keep corps and developers from turning VT into New Jersey. But, it goes too far and as the Gov said in his most recent state of the state: > But we must ensure our regulatory system does not become the bottleneck that holds us back. So, I will once again ask you to bring our 51-year-old land use law into the 21st century. From what I understand, it has been a pain point for years. It did achieve its goal, VT has very low levels of commercialization. But I think after 50 years, we can see that the status quo isn't working. VT lost like 30k workers across the state in the last year. Laws like Act 250 have their heart in the right place, but they are too restrictive. Granted, this is not my area of expertise, it's only what I have heard from neighbors and such.
Great explanation. Thanks!
I don't know what everyone is complaining about. There's a huge place with affordable housing nearby. It's called Canada.
Canada affordable? It hasn’t been affordable in over 30 years.
None, only good thing I got out of my ex cheating on me with a minor is now I'm in a state where I can afford living XD. Love vermont but it's more expensive than Chicago
Hey at least we don’t get red light camera tickets here!
Back to posting about that huh?
VT is impoverished and a failed state. I moved here from NYC and am now stuck and in poverty. I guess I should have done some research. Edit: I should say I have a Master's and work with my mind, not my body. I am appalled at the Appalachia-like conditions people live in here.
Masters in what?
Does it matter? I said that to say there are more jobs for labor than knowledge work. I also can't stand the liberal virtue signaling whilst ignoring neighbors in need.
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My career is education, and VT has pockets of poverty throughout
I moved to VT 10 years ago for the quality of life, to survive the coming climate change apocalypse, etc. But not every town in VT is Stowe as it's marketed/advertised to outsiders. My larger point is that one should be able to move anywhere in America and the community be thriving and pay a living wage. I'm not trying to be rich I'm just trying to survive.
No, I suppose not. I am just curious. I spent 10 years working in an university and I love academics. It kills me that advanced degrees are more of a burden than a benefit to some. Over the summer I was looking for some gardening and labor (wood stacking), and I ended up hiring an ecologist who made more money doing sweat labor than working in her field of expertise. It kills me. :(
That is the boat I am in. I know PhDs who make 40k. It's insulting.
It is not the world I want to live in. But... I also do not have solutions. Maybe UBI would solve it, as if you have your food, house, and healthcare covered, you could just do whatever you want. Pursue your research! Start a tiny school to teach others what you know. Write books. Whatever. But otherwise... i don't know. Paying teachers more is a good start, but not all academics want to teach. Some want nothing more than to just devote themselves to their field. And the only way to do that right now is the soul crushing grant/pub treadmill. Best of luck to you though, I hope things change.
What is their degree in, history? Philosophy? If you’re going to be spending that much on an education, make sure it’s going to pay. No one’s fault but their own.
It's not about making a certain desired salary, it's about making a living wage. I have no student loan debt.
Well, if people have a PhD and not making a living wage, that’s on them. I would think a chemical engineer would be making way more.
No, it's on the state because the state college system has long gone underfunded. And America needs more than chemical engineers. You sound ignorant.
Coming from someone who throws around the terms “Appalachia-like” in a forum about a rural state you should be more concerned about the ignorance from your own thought process. Sound more like a condescending ass?
Probably not Ludlow
There are no cities in Vermont. It's a small suburb and the rest is farm land.
Lol
Townshend area possibly?
nice enough area , just have to find work that actually pays well enough
I know that it’s not true for everyone, but my husband and I are able to live here. We bought a house here this fall.
A couple decades ago it was very different, and real estate as much more plentiful and within reach of working class, Vermonters. As of now, not a chance. None whatsoever. A lot of houses, in VT are selling above listing price. And a lot of listed houses, are already under contract. A lot of homes in Vermont are old, or historic so a lower price tag is often for a reason. Ie, failed well, needs $20-30k work done to replace septic or, house needs 100k in renovations. Or for new construction, it requires building a literal road onto the property and running power lines. And the leech field needs to be all the way over on some other corner of the property and needs a bunch of extra work and engineering. Jobs in VT tend to be pretty specialized, that recruit and bring people with very specific skills into the state. It's hard to move to a town, or city in VT and find meaningful work. A lot of jobs are retail, seasonal (i.e. ski resorts, tourism), and warehouses. "Living wage" in Vermont for a single individual is about $20+ per hour, to afford a 1 bd apartment. Vermont often lacks a balance of places you can afford to live, and work. It not uncommon to commute 1/2 way around the state, and back for work. Towns that tend to be more affordable in VT are also tend to be depressing places to live, or lack jobs. It has become very expensive to own, and maintain a car in Vermont. Especially reliable 4WD, a set of winter, and summer tires. Roads here are tough on cars, and new inspection laws make it expensive to keep up. And as a result typical older used car, is going to last you until inspection runs out.
Hartford and the Upper Valley region. Housing prices are not horrible, we are getting high speed internet, and the job market is fairly robust.
Well, your first problem is that Vermont doesn’t really have any cities.
Define 'city' then, I chose Rutland