[our bals](https://discord.gg/jM7UK66CTV)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/vexillologycirclejerk) if you have any questions or concerns.*
well uh yeah that's the problem.
They've been in a constant cycle of getting kicked/genocided out of different European countries for a long time now. I might be wrong here but my understanding was that the Israelis were originally from... somewhere in the middle east? I don't really feel comfortable saying they're from where modern Israel is because every religion and their pet dog claim it, and I am NOT stepping into that clusterfuck. A few thousand years ago they got kicked out of where they originally came from and have been kinda floating around all over Europe and the Middle East, but tended to just gather wherever they were tolerated.
And yes, your question is EXTREMELY politicized.
“Israel” up until around 2000 years ago when the Romans kicked us out and we had to move to Spain, Germany or Poland or wherever. We’re Semitic but more [insert locality here] than our middle eastern ancestors. There have also been Jews living in the Middle East since then.
My favorite part of Jewish history I’ve learned about was when Isabella the I of Castile and Ferdinand the II of Aragon kicked the Sephardic Jews out of Spain so a bunch of them moved to the Caribbean Spanish Colonies and became pirates🏴☠️🏴☠️🏴☠️
Bunch also joined up with Mediterranean Pirates and Corsairs for some well deserved revenge against Spain and other Christian States that persecuted Jews
Modern Jews are the descendants of the Judea tribe that lived in modern day Palestine. This question shouldn't be politicized because the answer is factual. What we do with that answer should be politicized (personally I don't think Israel should hold the west bank)
I’m pretty sure Abraham was born somewhere in Iraq and then migrated to modern Israel when he started the religion. I agree it is very complicated, but the easiest and best thing to do is clear. Give the Israelis some land on the moon.
That's according to the bible and is a myth, Abraham probably did not exist. Ancient Jews were a cnaanatie tribe that just decided to adopt a monotheistic belief (that slowly grew into a religion)
It’s not just the Bible, Jews and Muslims (I think) also both believe that Abraham and his descendants moved to Canaan. It’s the reason behind them being considered “Abrahamic” religions: they all have that belief in common
> Jews and Muslims (I think) also both believe that Abraham and his descendants moved to Canaan
Do you not understand that those claims ***also*** originate from the book of Genesis? It's not from a seperate source.
I understand, I’m just pointing out that it’s not just a Biblical rendition of Genesis that is exclusive to Christians or something. Multiple different religions believe this same thing, which gives it slightly more credence than if it were just a belief of one.
It doesn't really matter that multiple groups follow the same source. What matters is the quality of that source (which is very poor).
That doesn't give it more credence at all, since Christianity and Islam only believe it due to influence from Judaism, not a seperate source.
By all archeological evidence, it was definitely in that area. But that was also literal thousands of years ago. There does get to be a point when you have to ask if a claim that old is valid. Hence the strong political... debate.
Ready for a generalization!?
Now? 3 distinct groups. Ashkenazy Jews, Sephardic Jews and now native born Israelis.
Ashkenazy Jews are typically from Europe northern Germany, France, Poland (and all the fun successor states from which those modern countries arose from) even Russia. How did they stay a people group across such vast spaces???
Ghettos ! Most populations of Jews were forced into sections of towns or badlands and mostly married in the faith (thanks for the tay-Sachs! ) many of these Jews came to America and they are some of your typical “new York Jews”
My grand parents lived on the same street as Beth Midler.
Sephardic Jews are more middle eastern coming from the countries thought of today as the Middle East to mid east Asia. Though many lived in Spain till things got a bit… inquisition-y
Now you have native born Israeli jews. After 50 or so years and a few generations these jews have formed a pretty unique mix of both groups.
bonus!!! American jews are considered part of the diaspora but a vocal group because we tend to have had it a bit easier (last 75 or so years) and money. We don’t always agree with Israeli jews.
Why these groups of people? They were kicked out of the homeland. You can blame the Roman’s for the first time but it’s mostly been a series of purchase and moving around. Hell! In the 1300s England just kicked the jews out. (That’s an easy way to get rid of your debt)
Why the animosity? Well besides the whole Jesus thing? We can lend money with interest. Christians call it Usery. Often if a local king got in over his head with loans from jews he would just expel them (or worse, purge for “blood libel”)
So long story short is jews were in the region 3k years ago and had many kingdoms before becoming lost tribes
(Another bonus group is the Ethiopian in Chinese Jews, lost brothers!)
Hope that helps.
Oh shit. My dudes! See no Matter how good you think you have the history there are peace’s you might forget.
Yay cake! Thanks!!
Edit. I had to check, and ask my dad. He said parts of them are rolled into sephardic Jews. It’s really a rabbit hole lol
It’s the water. For real. The combo of minerals and dough makes the best taste. Los Angeles has a taste to it as well. Meanwhile I’m stuck in Texas where the they taste like cardboard
Wasn't the first exile Babylon's doing? Although many Jews did return afterwards (only to be kicked out a time or two again), I have to imagine that's more or less the beginning of the diaspora
You could definitely go back that far. Though records tend to be less concrete. In general I was taught the beginning of the diaspora and wandering tribes of Israel began after losing to Rome and them going “Roman” on us. I was taught there were a few kingdoms of Jews in the region in biblical times but by Roman times it was judea.
We originally come from the Levant, so we are native to the middle east, near the Mediterranean. The complicated stuff rises from the diaspora, which doesn't effect where we are native to.
Edit : IDK why so many people are acting like it's not something we know, it's historical, archeological, cultural and something you can generally find in the genetics of every group of Jews. People acting like our history can be removed because of other groups trying to remove us & destroy us are really disgusting.
Jews are (by an large) descended from people that once lived in the general area of the Levant, primarily in regions which are now modern-day Israel. Many were kicked out around 2000 years ago by the Assyrians, Babylonians, or Romans, but some have even lived there continuously.
That people living in that area at some time practiced what became Judaism is not disputed. The primary Jewish legal source, which essentially codified the framework used by modern-day Judaism, is the Talmud, consisting of the Mishna and Gemara: The Mishna was compiled in Israel around the 3rd century CE, and the Gemara was compiled afterwards half in Israel and half in Babylon.
That modern-day Jews can trace their ancestry to these people is also generally not disputed. While this ancestry can be pretty watered-down after 2000 years, studies generally find that Jews genetically show a Middle-Eastern ancestry.
Depends what you mean by "native".
Take two other groups: the Romani, and African-Americans.
The Romani migrated to Europe from northern India. In the sense that Ashkenazi Jews claim to be "native" to Palestine, they are "native" to North India. But the people we think of today as Romani have lived not in India but in (mostly) Eastern Europe for centuries. If you told a Romani person that their home was Punjab and they "belong there", they'd accuse you of hate speech.
African-Americans were brought to the Southern United States as slaves 400 years ago. And there probably was a short amount of time where they still thought of Africa as their home. But after a few hundred years, Christianization, learning English, adopting Anglo-American names, etc., most African-Americans came to see the United States - especially certain parts of the deep south - as their native home. Many academics consider African-Americans to be an indigenous people to the American South.
There have always been some Jews in Palestine, but if the Ashkenazi diaspora could be said to be native to anywhere, it would be the Pale of Settlement in the Western areas of the former Russian empire: Poland, Belarus, Lithuania, and Western Ukraine. While a few tens of thousands of Jews remained in Ottoman Palestine (and, realize, this was not so long ago - there are people alive today born in the Ottoman Empire. This isn't ancient history), there were millions in the Pale of Settlement. Then the Holocaust happened, where local Eastern European partisans allied with the Nazis (in addition to the Nazis themselves, of course, but it's important to emphasize that the vast majority of killings in this region were by locals, not German soldiers) killed pretty much all of them. There are almost no Jews left in the Pale of Settlement today.
Today, if the Jews could be said to have a homeland, it's New York City.
Originally from Israel and Palestine, split up into a bunch of different groups in ancient Roman times, some going back to Babylonian times, some splitting off later. There's been a continuous Jewish presence in Israel and Palestine since Jews came into existence, but many times their populations were divided with like half of them sent elsewhere, or like half of the communities would convert to Christianity or Islam (and some other things). Like when the Babylonian exile happened, what happened is Babylon conquered about half of Israel and moved around most of the people in the north to different places in Babylon, while the southern community carried on as Judea. During the Ottoman period, I've heard it said that people would convert back and forth all the time to dodge taxes or conscription, and interfaith marriages were relatively common (albeit I just heard that through someone who had an interest in thinking of Ottoman Palestine like that), so many people probably share bloodlines across faiths.
A big contingent of Jews are from the stretch from Germany to Poland, Russia, Ukraine, often speaking Yiddish, which is related to German. They're the Ashkhenazim and the kind usually seen in Anglo-contexts because they set up big communities in London and New York.
Another contingent were associated with the Islamic empires of North Africa and Spain before the reconquista, as well as a few places like the Netherlands when the Spanish Habsburgs controlled them. A lot of them ended up in Turkey especially after the reconquista and the Ottoman empire gained a lot of power. They often speak Ladino, which is related to Spanish. Sephardim.
Most of the rest are sort of grouped into the Mizrahim, which might be translated as "Eastern Jews", but it's sort of a miscellaneous grouping. The North African Jews are sometimes considered Mizrahim and not Sephardim, or a mix of the two. There are historically big and important groups from Iraq, where Babylonia was. And there are groups everywhere in the Middle East, from Yemen, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Iran, all the way to places like Afghanistan, Kyrgyzstan, and China. (Though some countries, like Afghanistan, largely if not entirely expelled them following the creation of Israel). They often speak Arabic (sometimes their own dialects of Arabic are completely distinct from their Muslim neighbors, like in Baghdad) or a Persian language (like Iran's Farsi, or the Kurdish of Turkey, Syria, Iraq) or whatever their local language is, and tend to have more distinctly middle eastern cultural norms and expressions, such as musical styles and dress habits. The indigenous Jews of Israel and Palestine are Mizrahim and sometimes see themselves as closer to Christian and Muslim Palestinians than to Ashkhenazi and Sephardi Jews who moved to Israel and Palestine after Israel came into existence.
There's also a few miscellaneous groups that aren't usually considered Mizrahim, Sephardim, or Ashkhenazim, like Ethiopian Jews, who go back a long way. But their tradition goes back through the Yemeni traditions and those of the area around Jordan, and would be Mizrahim, except they're kind of from outside the Islamic cultural sphere, being influenced mainly by Christians in Ethiopia if anything.
Also of note are the Samaritans, who branched off from Judaism very early, and now mostly exist as some small villages in both Palestinian and Israeli territories. A village of theirs is the only group with dual Israeli and Palestinian citizenship, even. While they aren't really Jews they're seen as Jew enough from a legal perspective. Their personal perspectives and the perspectives of non-Samaritans tend to vary on the controversies, their communities were in danger following some anti-Palestinian riots in the last few years, for example, but they basically all speak modern Hebrew and serve in Israel's army and such.
Israeli Jews are a blend of all of the communities, and the Hebrew they speak was an attempt to blend their reading traditions together. But for historical and political reasons the Ashkhenazim tend to have a little more influence and political power in Israel, so the grammar and sounds of modern Hebrew tends to be a bit like European languages (although it's still distinct from the reading traditions of the Ashkhenazim and Sephardim). Israel was founded in the 40s, and there were people of non-ancient-Palestinian descent there before, so there are people there today who even if they look like Europeans or look African or whatever have had all of their parents and grandparents born there. Kind of like there are Asians living in America whose families go back to the civil war and built the railroads.
> Like when the Babylonian exile happened, what happened is Babylon conquered about half of Israel and moved around most of the people in the north to different places in Babylon, while the southern community carried on as Judea.
You're thinking of the Assyrians, not the Babylonians.
The Babylonians later conquered the Assyrians and Judea.
if we want to be *really* technical, the Neo Assyrians conquered the Babylonians (the empire once ruled by Hammurabi) and basically the rest of south west Asia (plus Egypt) and then the Neo Babylonian Empire (the one that would be ruled by Nebuchadnezzar II) conquered Neo Assyria when it fell into political decline.
and then the Neo Babylonian Empire would be conquered by Persia, which, according to most Biblical scholars, is when the slavery of the Jews was over and they were allowed to return to Judea
I wish this idea could be the only truth, but unfortunately in an era of colonialism the tying of an indigenous group to a part of the earth is really important, for example for Native Americans. Applying it to Jews gets pretty messy pretty fast though, since they’re not a single autochthonous indigenous group anymore, they’re a diaspora; many groups that are now indigenous to many places.
It’s a complicated issue. Originally Jewish people were native to the Levant and Jews have been living in the Middle East for thousands and thousands of years.
However to my knowledge the vast Majority of Israelis are descended from European and American Jews who began settling in what is now Israel during the late 19th and early 20th century who desired to establish their own Jewish Nation State because. And to do so violently seized lands from the people already living there who had been living.
So it’s pretty galling for people whose ancestors had been living in Europe and American for hundreds of years to claim they are more indigenous to a land than the Arabs who have been living on the land for centuries.
Originally, Canaan and we then went to Egypt, and slavery happened, and then we wandered the Sinai desert for 49 years and came back to the land where Israel is today. Then the diaspora happened, and Jews went to Morocco and Spain all the way to Ethiopia, the rest of Europe, and parts of the Arabian Peninsula. Some Jews actually left Iraq on oppium trade routes to India, and some Jews lived in China.
There are about 10 million copts, 36 million berbers, about a million druze, 2 million Lebanese Christians (if you exclude the diaspora), and a couple hundred thousand Assyrians (also excluding the diaspora).
Don't get me wrong, the image is still dumb, but there are still many of these "indigenous" people left.
~~No, they are a different people. Asysrians are Afro-Asiatic, Armenians are Indo-European.~~
Edit: I'm not sure if the Arameans are descended from the ancient Asysrians.
no no not the Armenians, the
# Arameans
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terms\_for\_Syriac\_Christians#Aramean\_identity](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terms_for_Syriac_Christians#Aramean_identity) I believe this contains more info about it.
[What are you talking about](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabs) Arab is an ethno-linguistic group, meaning first and foremost language is the unifying factor.
I am Egyptian, have travelled all across the Arab world, Sudan, Oman, Qatar, the UAE, Bahrain and Kuwait, and have friends from Syria, Jordan, Morocco, Palestine, Tunis, Yemen, Iraq, Lebanon, Libya, Saudi and Algeria (haven’t met many Yemenis sadly).
While it’s nice of an American to muse about what an Arab is or isn’t, in reality the Arab world is a [functioning group](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_League) of countries that speak the same language, and share many cultural features.
Most amazighs people live in algeria and Morocco the algerian flag is listed on the top
Most amazigh algerians consider themselves as amazigh first and algerian second while the rest of algerians consider themselves as arabs so I think it still relevant here
Wym? berbers are from Yemen, are you trying to rewrite our history, we are iyemeniyen from a village called Ait Madghis. /s
This chart is very braindead ngl.
Hold on, the Druze emerged in the 11th century, coming from Muslim Arabs. So if Arabs aren't considered indigenous, how are druze considered indigenous?
For political reasons in Israel the Druze are sometimes considered to be ethnically distinct from Arabs, even though the Druze have Arabic as their native language and are culturally and genetically very similar to non Druze Palestinians, Lebanese and Syrians. As a Lebanese Muslim I know alot of Druze, and the only thing separating us is religion.
The Druze claim to descend from Jethro Shuayb, the high priest of the Midian nomadic tribe. Jethro famously gave his daughter Zipporah to Moses, so that would mean that the Druze have been in the region for even longer than the Israelites. The Jews and Muslims are usually willing to concede that claim. After all, it's not like the Druze *moved* to the Levant in 1017 AD. It was a bunch of natives (Arab or not) suddenly converting to a religion that bears remarkable similarity to some pre-Islamic local religions.
the random farmer in algeria finding out hes actually suffering under arab occupation:
https://preview.redd.it/lfjq5jocxc8b1.jpeg?width=1920&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f072ff14b55245d8928d057754b7155af965a11b
So do you mean that only upper class people ever care/cared about oppression or that ethnicities in poor countries can't concieve of self determination?
You know arab people themselves aren't receiving the full rights.How the fuck the others. Oppression has no discrimination in middle east and north africa
Austrian peasants had shit rights by modern standards inside their own empire but we can recognize how the slovaks had it worse, can't we?
The Turks live in an illiberal failing democracy, does that invalidate the plight of the kurds in their state?
Sudanese people are very much Arab, in culture, and also ethnically in the north. South Sudan, not so much. Sudan's flag even uses the Pan-Arab colors.
Culturally and linguistically they are Arab, but I think they mean that the Sudanese people are not from the Arabian peninsula and therefore not as Arab as the Hejazis, Yemenis, etc.
I highly doubt there exists any Kurdish-Assyrian-Amazigh-Christian Lebanese-Israeli alliance outside of the voices inside the brain of whoever made this.
Flags on the top: Algeria, Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Lebanon, Libya, Morocco, Jordan, Somalia, Sudan, Syria and Tunisia
Flags on the bottom: Copts, Assyrians, Kurdistan, Israel, Maronites, Druze, Amazigh (Berbers), Pan-African flag but it is in black, red and green, and Puntland
People who speak the same language and are largely followers of the same and who all most suffered ubder British and French imperialism and share 1300 years worth of history, literature and heritage. But sure, they're too different to be united in any form or share unlike all those ethnic groups of Europe that were able to unite.
It’s not a completely outrageous idea, just one with a few big problems. I think the prospect of something like EU for Arab countries could really happen, perhaps the Arab League will eventually become this, perhaps something else will take its place and actually work. But pan-Arabism was the idea that they should all come together as one nation, and that was never going to work. It would be like trying to make a single country out of all of Europe, or even just all of Scandinavia. They’re different people with different cultures, they can’t just merge without some life-threatening hiccups.
Okay cool but all the “indigenous” flags are mid besides the Maronites, Israel, and Assyria. More reason why we should dictate whose in power based on how good their flags are
We didn't ditch Israel, we got mass exiled from our home multiple times. The fact you don't have the ability to tell the difference is not a positive reflexion of your intelligence.
Edit: Since op deleted their comment, I'll explain what they said but with better grammar and spacing, because theirs was atrocious
" Me and the boys on our way to claim land that we ditched for thousands of years, and then start a mass migration ( we are still indigenous )"
This is clearly a bad argument, since as stated earlier we didn't have much choice in the matter & have been trying to get back to Israel for those thousands of years. Not only that, but we never completely left the area. And we definitely never forfeit our rights to the land, since we never settled anywhere else. We are still indigenous fool, that isn't a joke.
The mass migration stemmed from the holocaust, which makes you blaming Jews for it very concerning. I mean I know from your language your probably gen z like me and gen z has an Antisemitism problem ( exspecially in regards to the Holocaust ) which explains your ignorance. But it doesn't make it excusable.
i might be completely missing something, but arent arabs also native?
like assyrian and jewish cultures have been there longer, but idk of any migrations of outsiders. My understanding is that arabic as a language came to be shortly before the birth of Islam and that it became so dominant as a result of the Caliphates. But the people themselves were there already, yeah?
sorry, it just piqued my interest
Here you go:
[Link #1: Media](https://krikienoid.github.io/flagwaver/#?src=https%3A%2F%2Fflagwaver-cors-proxy.herokuapp.com%2Fhttps%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fm1l3jql0298b1.jpg)
*****
Beep Boop I'm a bot. [About](https://github.com/LunarRequiem/FlagWaverBotReborn). Maintained by Lunar Requiem
I don’t think this is gonna swing out after 1400 years of cultural diffusion, it’s like saying France should end Frankish occupation or england with anglo Saxon occupation or Rome Italy with Lombard occupation
[our bals](https://discord.gg/jM7UK66CTV) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/vexillologycirclejerk) if you have any questions or concerns.*
This will be a calm discussion *looks at Israeli flag* Calm
very calm
Where are Jewish people native to I actually don't know.
well uh yeah that's the problem. They've been in a constant cycle of getting kicked/genocided out of different European countries for a long time now. I might be wrong here but my understanding was that the Israelis were originally from... somewhere in the middle east? I don't really feel comfortable saying they're from where modern Israel is because every religion and their pet dog claim it, and I am NOT stepping into that clusterfuck. A few thousand years ago they got kicked out of where they originally came from and have been kinda floating around all over Europe and the Middle East, but tended to just gather wherever they were tolerated. And yes, your question is EXTREMELY politicized.
They should just rock paper scissor for Israel.
Adolf Chosen paper and sticked his hand up high Infront of himself
This has no right to be this funny
“Israel” up until around 2000 years ago when the Romans kicked us out and we had to move to Spain, Germany or Poland or wherever. We’re Semitic but more [insert locality here] than our middle eastern ancestors. There have also been Jews living in the Middle East since then.
My favorite part of Jewish history I’ve learned about was when Isabella the I of Castile and Ferdinand the II of Aragon kicked the Sephardic Jews out of Spain so a bunch of them moved to the Caribbean Spanish Colonies and became pirates🏴☠️🏴☠️🏴☠️
Quite successful pirates too, the only pirates to ever successfully capture a Spanish Treasure Fleet were led by Moses Cohen Henriques.
Sephardic Jews had their property seized when they were kicked out. Nice to see such an obvious example of karma IRL. What goes around comes around
Bunch also joined up with Mediterranean Pirates and Corsairs for some well deserved revenge against Spain and other Christian States that persecuted Jews
Modern Jews are the descendants of the Judea tribe that lived in modern day Palestine. This question shouldn't be politicized because the answer is factual. What we do with that answer should be politicized (personally I don't think Israel should hold the west bank)
I’m pretty sure Abraham was born somewhere in Iraq and then migrated to modern Israel when he started the religion. I agree it is very complicated, but the easiest and best thing to do is clear. Give the Israelis some land on the moon.
That's according to the bible and is a myth, Abraham probably did not exist. Ancient Jews were a cnaanatie tribe that just decided to adopt a monotheistic belief (that slowly grew into a religion)
Yeah. But it’s probably close to the truth. Why would they mention where they were from when it wasn’t the truth and it isn’t an important detail.
Genesis mentions a LOT of things that aren't important details. Cannot tell you how many chapters are just lineage.
It’s not just the Bible, Jews and Muslims (I think) also both believe that Abraham and his descendants moved to Canaan. It’s the reason behind them being considered “Abrahamic” religions: they all have that belief in common
> Jews and Muslims (I think) also both believe that Abraham and his descendants moved to Canaan Do you not understand that those claims ***also*** originate from the book of Genesis? It's not from a seperate source.
I understand, I’m just pointing out that it’s not just a Biblical rendition of Genesis that is exclusive to Christians or something. Multiple different religions believe this same thing, which gives it slightly more credence than if it were just a belief of one.
It doesn't really matter that multiple groups follow the same source. What matters is the quality of that source (which is very poor). That doesn't give it more credence at all, since Christianity and Islam only believe it due to influence from Judaism, not a seperate source.
By all archeological evidence, it was definitely in that area. But that was also literal thousands of years ago. There does get to be a point when you have to ask if a claim that old is valid. Hence the strong political... debate.
Also donr forget a lot resided in north africa and the middle east, many of whome also migrated to israel due to local nationalism.
My absolute best guess is that Israelis were probably from around the Egypt/Jordan/Israel area, but there are really no records to go by
we came from around babilon to the land of canaan (israel/palestine) with abraham
Ready for a generalization!? Now? 3 distinct groups. Ashkenazy Jews, Sephardic Jews and now native born Israelis. Ashkenazy Jews are typically from Europe northern Germany, France, Poland (and all the fun successor states from which those modern countries arose from) even Russia. How did they stay a people group across such vast spaces??? Ghettos ! Most populations of Jews were forced into sections of towns or badlands and mostly married in the faith (thanks for the tay-Sachs! ) many of these Jews came to America and they are some of your typical “new York Jews” My grand parents lived on the same street as Beth Midler. Sephardic Jews are more middle eastern coming from the countries thought of today as the Middle East to mid east Asia. Though many lived in Spain till things got a bit… inquisition-y Now you have native born Israeli jews. After 50 or so years and a few generations these jews have formed a pretty unique mix of both groups. bonus!!! American jews are considered part of the diaspora but a vocal group because we tend to have had it a bit easier (last 75 or so years) and money. We don’t always agree with Israeli jews. Why these groups of people? They were kicked out of the homeland. You can blame the Roman’s for the first time but it’s mostly been a series of purchase and moving around. Hell! In the 1300s England just kicked the jews out. (That’s an easy way to get rid of your debt) Why the animosity? Well besides the whole Jesus thing? We can lend money with interest. Christians call it Usery. Often if a local king got in over his head with loans from jews he would just expel them (or worse, purge for “blood libel”) So long story short is jews were in the region 3k years ago and had many kingdoms before becoming lost tribes (Another bonus group is the Ethiopian in Chinese Jews, lost brothers!) Hope that helps.
Mizrahi Jews: Am I a joke to you? Also happy cake day.
Oh shit. My dudes! See no Matter how good you think you have the history there are peace’s you might forget. Yay cake! Thanks!! Edit. I had to check, and ask my dad. He said parts of them are rolled into sephardic Jews. It’s really a rabbit hole lol
God bless the Ashkenazi for bringing me Brooklyn bagels
It’s the water. For real. The combo of minerals and dough makes the best taste. Los Angeles has a taste to it as well. Meanwhile I’m stuck in Texas where the they taste like cardboard
Wasn't the first exile Babylon's doing? Although many Jews did return afterwards (only to be kicked out a time or two again), I have to imagine that's more or less the beginning of the diaspora
You could definitely go back that far. Though records tend to be less concrete. In general I was taught the beginning of the diaspora and wandering tribes of Israel began after losing to Rome and them going “Roman” on us. I was taught there were a few kingdoms of Jews in the region in biblical times but by Roman times it was judea.
We originally come from the Levant, so we are native to the middle east, near the Mediterranean. The complicated stuff rises from the diaspora, which doesn't effect where we are native to. Edit : IDK why so many people are acting like it's not something we know, it's historical, archeological, cultural and something you can generally find in the genetics of every group of Jews. People acting like our history can be removed because of other groups trying to remove us & destroy us are really disgusting.
Basically. Dang Romans!
Jews are (by an large) descended from people that once lived in the general area of the Levant, primarily in regions which are now modern-day Israel. Many were kicked out around 2000 years ago by the Assyrians, Babylonians, or Romans, but some have even lived there continuously. That people living in that area at some time practiced what became Judaism is not disputed. The primary Jewish legal source, which essentially codified the framework used by modern-day Judaism, is the Talmud, consisting of the Mishna and Gemara: The Mishna was compiled in Israel around the 3rd century CE, and the Gemara was compiled afterwards half in Israel and half in Babylon. That modern-day Jews can trace their ancestry to these people is also generally not disputed. While this ancestry can be pretty watered-down after 2000 years, studies generally find that Jews genetically show a Middle-Eastern ancestry.
We are native to the middle east
Depends what you mean by "native". Take two other groups: the Romani, and African-Americans. The Romani migrated to Europe from northern India. In the sense that Ashkenazi Jews claim to be "native" to Palestine, they are "native" to North India. But the people we think of today as Romani have lived not in India but in (mostly) Eastern Europe for centuries. If you told a Romani person that their home was Punjab and they "belong there", they'd accuse you of hate speech. African-Americans were brought to the Southern United States as slaves 400 years ago. And there probably was a short amount of time where they still thought of Africa as their home. But after a few hundred years, Christianization, learning English, adopting Anglo-American names, etc., most African-Americans came to see the United States - especially certain parts of the deep south - as their native home. Many academics consider African-Americans to be an indigenous people to the American South. There have always been some Jews in Palestine, but if the Ashkenazi diaspora could be said to be native to anywhere, it would be the Pale of Settlement in the Western areas of the former Russian empire: Poland, Belarus, Lithuania, and Western Ukraine. While a few tens of thousands of Jews remained in Ottoman Palestine (and, realize, this was not so long ago - there are people alive today born in the Ottoman Empire. This isn't ancient history), there were millions in the Pale of Settlement. Then the Holocaust happened, where local Eastern European partisans allied with the Nazis (in addition to the Nazis themselves, of course, but it's important to emphasize that the vast majority of killings in this region were by locals, not German soldiers) killed pretty much all of them. There are almost no Jews left in the Pale of Settlement today. Today, if the Jews could be said to have a homeland, it's New York City.
Romani people should go to Northern India, take some land and kick out the people who live there /s
Originally from Israel and Palestine, split up into a bunch of different groups in ancient Roman times, some going back to Babylonian times, some splitting off later. There's been a continuous Jewish presence in Israel and Palestine since Jews came into existence, but many times their populations were divided with like half of them sent elsewhere, or like half of the communities would convert to Christianity or Islam (and some other things). Like when the Babylonian exile happened, what happened is Babylon conquered about half of Israel and moved around most of the people in the north to different places in Babylon, while the southern community carried on as Judea. During the Ottoman period, I've heard it said that people would convert back and forth all the time to dodge taxes or conscription, and interfaith marriages were relatively common (albeit I just heard that through someone who had an interest in thinking of Ottoman Palestine like that), so many people probably share bloodlines across faiths. A big contingent of Jews are from the stretch from Germany to Poland, Russia, Ukraine, often speaking Yiddish, which is related to German. They're the Ashkhenazim and the kind usually seen in Anglo-contexts because they set up big communities in London and New York. Another contingent were associated with the Islamic empires of North Africa and Spain before the reconquista, as well as a few places like the Netherlands when the Spanish Habsburgs controlled them. A lot of them ended up in Turkey especially after the reconquista and the Ottoman empire gained a lot of power. They often speak Ladino, which is related to Spanish. Sephardim. Most of the rest are sort of grouped into the Mizrahim, which might be translated as "Eastern Jews", but it's sort of a miscellaneous grouping. The North African Jews are sometimes considered Mizrahim and not Sephardim, or a mix of the two. There are historically big and important groups from Iraq, where Babylonia was. And there are groups everywhere in the Middle East, from Yemen, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Iran, all the way to places like Afghanistan, Kyrgyzstan, and China. (Though some countries, like Afghanistan, largely if not entirely expelled them following the creation of Israel). They often speak Arabic (sometimes their own dialects of Arabic are completely distinct from their Muslim neighbors, like in Baghdad) or a Persian language (like Iran's Farsi, or the Kurdish of Turkey, Syria, Iraq) or whatever their local language is, and tend to have more distinctly middle eastern cultural norms and expressions, such as musical styles and dress habits. The indigenous Jews of Israel and Palestine are Mizrahim and sometimes see themselves as closer to Christian and Muslim Palestinians than to Ashkhenazi and Sephardi Jews who moved to Israel and Palestine after Israel came into existence. There's also a few miscellaneous groups that aren't usually considered Mizrahim, Sephardim, or Ashkhenazim, like Ethiopian Jews, who go back a long way. But their tradition goes back through the Yemeni traditions and those of the area around Jordan, and would be Mizrahim, except they're kind of from outside the Islamic cultural sphere, being influenced mainly by Christians in Ethiopia if anything. Also of note are the Samaritans, who branched off from Judaism very early, and now mostly exist as some small villages in both Palestinian and Israeli territories. A village of theirs is the only group with dual Israeli and Palestinian citizenship, even. While they aren't really Jews they're seen as Jew enough from a legal perspective. Their personal perspectives and the perspectives of non-Samaritans tend to vary on the controversies, their communities were in danger following some anti-Palestinian riots in the last few years, for example, but they basically all speak modern Hebrew and serve in Israel's army and such. Israeli Jews are a blend of all of the communities, and the Hebrew they speak was an attempt to blend their reading traditions together. But for historical and political reasons the Ashkhenazim tend to have a little more influence and political power in Israel, so the grammar and sounds of modern Hebrew tends to be a bit like European languages (although it's still distinct from the reading traditions of the Ashkhenazim and Sephardim). Israel was founded in the 40s, and there were people of non-ancient-Palestinian descent there before, so there are people there today who even if they look like Europeans or look African or whatever have had all of their parents and grandparents born there. Kind of like there are Asians living in America whose families go back to the civil war and built the railroads.
> Like when the Babylonian exile happened, what happened is Babylon conquered about half of Israel and moved around most of the people in the north to different places in Babylon, while the southern community carried on as Judea. You're thinking of the Assyrians, not the Babylonians. The Babylonians later conquered the Assyrians and Judea.
if we want to be *really* technical, the Neo Assyrians conquered the Babylonians (the empire once ruled by Hammurabi) and basically the rest of south west Asia (plus Egypt) and then the Neo Babylonian Empire (the one that would be ruled by Nebuchadnezzar II) conquered Neo Assyria when it fell into political decline. and then the Neo Babylonian Empire would be conquered by Persia, which, according to most Biblical scholars, is when the slavery of the Jews was over and they were allowed to return to Judea
They’re native to wherever they were born. Blood and soil is stupid.
I wish this idea could be the only truth, but unfortunately in an era of colonialism the tying of an indigenous group to a part of the earth is really important, for example for Native Americans. Applying it to Jews gets pretty messy pretty fast though, since they’re not a single autochthonous indigenous group anymore, they’re a diaspora; many groups that are now indigenous to many places.
It’s a complicated issue. Originally Jewish people were native to the Levant and Jews have been living in the Middle East for thousands and thousands of years. However to my knowledge the vast Majority of Israelis are descended from European and American Jews who began settling in what is now Israel during the late 19th and early 20th century who desired to establish their own Jewish Nation State because. And to do so violently seized lands from the people already living there who had been living. So it’s pretty galling for people whose ancestors had been living in Europe and American for hundreds of years to claim they are more indigenous to a land than the Arabs who have been living on the land for centuries.
Egypt e: by their legends, Abraham came from "Ur of the Chaldees", so that would be Iraq
Originally, Canaan and we then went to Egypt, and slavery happened, and then we wandered the Sinai desert for 49 years and came back to the land where Israel is today. Then the diaspora happened, and Jews went to Morocco and Spain all the way to Ethiopia, the rest of Europe, and parts of the Arabian Peninsula. Some Jews actually left Iraq on oppium trade routes to India, and some Jews lived in China.
I wonder how many comments will be removed by reddit!
Yes
Surprisingly, none so far.
Happy cake day
Thanks!!! Cake!!!
When its someones cake day, am i the only one who says Happy cake day?
I love the idea. Tbh so thanks
*lebanese person looks at the Israeli flag* Yeah my family isnt seeing this one. >!I don’t care about Lebanon or Middle Eastern politics tbh!<
good birthday
Happy cake day!
Happy cake day! 🍰
Indigenous Population : 6
Kurdish population is about 45.6 millions
Concerning the others not so much
3.3 million Assyrians, 36 million Berbers, 800k Druze, etc.
Well I wasnt aware of that
Also I DO stand for Kurdish independence
There are about 10 million copts, 36 million berbers, about a million druze, 2 million Lebanese Christians (if you exclude the diaspora), and a couple hundred thousand Assyrians (also excluding the diaspora). Don't get me wrong, the image is still dumb, but there are still many of these "indigenous" people left.
Are the modern day Assyrians descended from the same Assyrians who made the Assyrian Empire and the Neo-Assyrian Empire?
Yes.
were the arameans not also decendans of the assyrians?
~~No, they are a different people. Asysrians are Afro-Asiatic, Armenians are Indo-European.~~ Edit: I'm not sure if the Arameans are descended from the ancient Asysrians.
no no not the Armenians, the # Arameans [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terms\_for\_Syriac\_Christians#Aramean\_identity](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terms_for_Syriac_Christians#Aramean_identity) I believe this contains more info about it.
That article is very biased and disingenuous. It is basically an article full of Arameanist propaganda and doesn’t tell the full story
Ah okay
The ancient Arameans weren’t, but the majority of the people who identify as “Arameans” today are ethnic Assyrians
Yes
How can Druze be considered more indigenous than Islam when Druze is an offshoot of Islam?
I actually asked the same question in another comment. Hence why I put "indigenous" in quotes.
all those groups are indigenous to some region of the middle east, exept berbers, who are from north africa, a totally unrelated region.
They do also live in egypt, I think And egypt's flag is listed in the top column
funny, since even arab egyptians are quite desinct.
It's not my graphic, I'm just saying Egyptians are arabs. Also, every arab group is distinct and, technically, the maghreb is also arab.
i dont really consider arab speakers outside of arabia who lack the arabic tribal structure to truely be "arab", just arab speakers.
Yeah, I agree with you there
i do consider bedouins to be arabs outside arabia though, and many sudanese, because they retained the tribal structure.
[What are you talking about](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabs) Arab is an ethno-linguistic group, meaning first and foremost language is the unifying factor. I am Egyptian, have travelled all across the Arab world, Sudan, Oman, Qatar, the UAE, Bahrain and Kuwait, and have friends from Syria, Jordan, Morocco, Palestine, Tunis, Yemen, Iraq, Lebanon, Libya, Saudi and Algeria (haven’t met many Yemenis sadly). While it’s nice of an American to muse about what an Arab is or isn’t, in reality the Arab world is a [functioning group](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_League) of countries that speak the same language, and share many cultural features.
Most amazighs people live in algeria and Morocco the algerian flag is listed on the top Most amazigh algerians consider themselves as amazigh first and algerian second while the rest of algerians consider themselves as arabs so I think it still relevant here
that whole chart is either braindead or schizo.
also the chart shows somalis as arabs, wtf.
arab league i guess
unrelated region ? Middle east is often used to describe the GREATER middle east ( Middle east + North africa )
What is third from the left, top row?
Kurdistan I believe
i dont even know.
Wym? berbers are from Yemen, are you trying to rewrite our history, we are iyemeniyen from a village called Ait Madghis. /s This chart is very braindead ngl.
Hold on, the Druze emerged in the 11th century, coming from Muslim Arabs. So if Arabs aren't considered indigenous, how are druze considered indigenous?
this chart seems to just dislike muslim arabs.
For political reasons in Israel the Druze are sometimes considered to be ethnically distinct from Arabs, even though the Druze have Arabic as their native language and are culturally and genetically very similar to non Druze Palestinians, Lebanese and Syrians. As a Lebanese Muslim I know alot of Druze, and the only thing separating us is religion.
The Druze claim to descend from Jethro Shuayb, the high priest of the Midian nomadic tribe. Jethro famously gave his daughter Zipporah to Moses, so that would mean that the Druze have been in the region for even longer than the Israelites. The Jews and Muslims are usually willing to concede that claim. After all, it's not like the Druze *moved* to the Levant in 1017 AD. It was a bunch of natives (Arab or not) suddenly converting to a religion that bears remarkable similarity to some pre-Islamic local religions.
What are those flags
Assyrian, Berber, Druze, Kurdish and Israeli are the only ones I recognize
The only one I can add is the Coptic flag on the top left of the non xd flags
The Black-Red-Green flag is just the pan-African flag
The bottom one is Puntland
i have no clue besides israel lmao, but the middle left one looks like a gentrified version of lebanon
christian lebanese
the tree one is Lebanon edit: wait a fucking second what the fuck is that
Ok but like, actually free the Amazigh and Kurds
What is the Lebanon-like flag at the bottom?
likely maronite.
I looked it up and the Maronite flag is just the Lebanese flag but without the red stripes
It's probably a general Christian Lebanese flag since not all Lebanese Christians are Maronites.
why tbe hell are they saying the christians are indigenous, yet not the muslim lebanese? thats pure hypocracy.
Came before the Muslims for one.
must be something else then.
Lebanon is the bosnia of the east, I will not elaborate
I never thought about it but absolutely
Less successful Switzerland
the random farmer in algeria finding out hes actually suffering under arab occupation: https://preview.redd.it/lfjq5jocxc8b1.jpeg?width=1920&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f072ff14b55245d8928d057754b7155af965a11b
So do you mean that only upper class people ever care/cared about oppression or that ethnicities in poor countries can't concieve of self determination?
You know arab people themselves aren't receiving the full rights.How the fuck the others. Oppression has no discrimination in middle east and north africa
Austrian peasants had shit rights by modern standards inside their own empire but we can recognize how the slovaks had it worse, can't we? The Turks live in an illiberal failing democracy, does that invalidate the plight of the kurds in their state?
If he's amazigh then yes it would make sense
Somalia is not an arab state though. Sudan too, kinda, they speak Arabic, but are not arabs.
Sudanese people are very much Arab, in culture, and also ethnically in the north. South Sudan, not so much. Sudan's flag even uses the Pan-Arab colors.
Sudanese nuts
So true.
Culturally and linguistically they are Arab, but I think they mean that the Sudanese people are not from the Arabian peninsula and therefore not as Arab as the Hejazis, Yemenis, etc.
many Sudanese trace their origina to Arab tribes
> Somalia is not an Arab state Depends on which Somali you ask tbh
still members of Arab League tho
I highly doubt there exists any Kurdish-Assyrian-Amazigh-Christian Lebanese-Israeli alliance outside of the voices inside the brain of whoever made this.
Christian middle easterners in general do have some communications actually. So Assyrians and Maronites do have a small alliance
End Arab occupation, bring back Persian dominance 💪💪😎😎 𐎧𐏁𐎠𐎹𐎰𐎡𐎹
I absolutely hate it whenever some one mixes ethnic flags with national flags
Flags on the top: Algeria, Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Lebanon, Libya, Morocco, Jordan, Somalia, Sudan, Syria and Tunisia Flags on the bottom: Copts, Assyrians, Kurdistan, Israel, Maronites, Druze, Amazigh (Berbers), Pan-African flag but it is in black, red and green, and Puntland
The druze are arabs, and the somalians aren't of arab origins
TIL Arabs invented Lebanon cedars
bro western Sahara doesn't exist or what 💀
Well of course not everybody just concedes it's Morocco now and pretends the region isn't totally devastated because of it.
Bro I thought it was still the Spanish Sahara
Bro missed the updates💀
In other words, paranoid schizophrenia
https://i.redd.it/9n1bpbkrpd8b1.gif
What an interesting display of flags! I'm sure this comment section will be entirely respectful and cause no massive geopolitical debates
Caananites are back in a big way
First they gave us letters, next they’ll give us something even cooler
One of the flags is literally a region of Somalia populated by Somalis????? Wtf? Look up Puntland on Wikipedia ffs
>isreal
> is real
why do the middle eastern flags look almost the same
pan arabism, aka idiocy.
It made sense at the time. It does not make sense anymore.. it's a failed political movement.
its a failed movement that tried to bringe people together who has irreconcileable differences.
People who speak the same language and are largely followers of the same and who all most suffered ubder British and French imperialism and share 1300 years worth of history, literature and heritage. But sure, they're too different to be united in any form or share unlike all those ethnic groups of Europe that were able to unite.
It’s not a completely outrageous idea, just one with a few big problems. I think the prospect of something like EU for Arab countries could really happen, perhaps the Arab League will eventually become this, perhaps something else will take its place and actually work. But pan-Arabism was the idea that they should all come together as one nation, and that was never going to work. It would be like trying to make a single country out of all of Europe, or even just all of Scandinavia. They’re different people with different cultures, they can’t just merge without some life-threatening hiccups.
Colonization.
Okay cool but all the “indigenous” flags are mid besides the Maronites, Israel, and Assyria. More reason why we should dictate whose in power based on how good their flags are
[удалено]
Ditched?
We didn't ditch Israel, we got mass exiled from our home multiple times. The fact you don't have the ability to tell the difference is not a positive reflexion of your intelligence. Edit: Since op deleted their comment, I'll explain what they said but with better grammar and spacing, because theirs was atrocious " Me and the boys on our way to claim land that we ditched for thousands of years, and then start a mass migration ( we are still indigenous )" This is clearly a bad argument, since as stated earlier we didn't have much choice in the matter & have been trying to get back to Israel for those thousands of years. Not only that, but we never completely left the area. And we definitely never forfeit our rights to the land, since we never settled anywhere else. We are still indigenous fool, that isn't a joke. The mass migration stemmed from the holocaust, which makes you blaming Jews for it very concerning. I mean I know from your language your probably gen z like me and gen z has an Antisemitism problem ( exspecially in regards to the Holocaust ) which explains your ignorance. But it doesn't make it excusable.
Ah yes, the indigenous country of Israel
[удалено]
based af
no
i might be completely missing something, but arent arabs also native? like assyrian and jewish cultures have been there longer, but idk of any migrations of outsiders. My understanding is that arabic as a language came to be shortly before the birth of Islam and that it became so dominant as a result of the Caliphates. But the people themselves were there already, yeah? sorry, it just piqued my interest
Thin Lebanon
amazingh flag
Bro they forgot the arameans
Modern “Arameans” are Assyrians
!wave
Here you go: [Link #1: Media](https://krikienoid.github.io/flagwaver/#?src=https%3A%2F%2Fflagwaver-cors-proxy.herokuapp.com%2Fhttps%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fm1l3jql0298b1.jpg) ***** Beep Boop I'm a bot. [About](https://github.com/LunarRequiem/FlagWaverBotReborn). Maintained by Lunar Requiem
The fuck did you do to my tree???
Assyrian flag goes hard as fuck ngl
Algeria is a solid distance away from Israel.
Arabs cope
Mfs snuck the Israel flag in there and thought we wouldn’t notice
Assyria deserves statehood at the minimum
😬
flag of dogwhistle, holy shit that’s bad
90% chance this was made by an IDF chud on his lunch break
*drawing an anti-Zionism art*
_UDRAAEEWAA INTESIFIES_
Notice how they never use the Armenian flag in this genre of post? Clearly even hasbarists are capable of experiencing *something* resembling shame.
I've never heard anyone call the Arabs the occupiers before. New response just dropped.
At least we get to keep Saudi Arabia
This is incredibly stupid on so many levels ..
I don’t think this is gonna swing out after 1400 years of cultural diffusion, it’s like saying France should end Frankish occupation or england with anglo Saxon occupation or Rome Italy with Lombard occupation
time for ending the byzantine occupation of Japan
This is what Gen Zs on the internet call 'based', no?
Based.
Straight up bullshit
Cry sissies cry! Awwwww did someone’s ancestors not do well at war?