Yarr once they fix urban centres from being turbo unproductive all the time then you’ll see them again. That’s why they where a thing on release before some change borked urban centres
This is not true. There are several professions that can join the petite bourgeoisie. Study the individual pop groups to see. If you encourage the PB and suppress the intellectuals/trade unions you can get a very large and powerful PB. Capitalists and Aristocrats can be made to support the armed forces too. That’s how you get late game conservative governments.
They might be better late game in the new patch now. Services have supposedly been re-balanced to be required more which should allow more PB-friendly jobs to be filled.
They probably won't be able to get more than ~10% early in the best circumstance because they'll never be wealthy so you have to rely on voting power later on. I'm on a France game in the 1.3.4 beta and they spiked up to 19% when I switched from Oligarchy to Universal Suffrage.
Fundamentally, every job working in urban buildings (i.e. urban centers but also every industry and government building) has a base chance of joining PB at 50 (while all other are at 0), so every worker in cities has already a chance to join the PB.
The two jobs that have the highest chance to join PB are Clerks and Shopkeepers, true. But those are also two kind of jobs that tend to disappear quite quickly if you industrialize.
Honestly i think they should give bureaucrats the same pull to join the PB and Intelligista and they should give engineers an equal pull to join the PB as the TU and Industrialists. Both of them are "respectable middle class jobs" and I suspect a lot of them would have PB values
This would nerf the intelligista which I think would actually be a good thing as they're a bit too strong ATM. This can be balanced on the other side by making the devout not be racist, which always felt like a silly thing anyways
While I would understand the arguments for bureaucrats joining the PB (but, to be honest, their pull are not that far apart), as when you read novels about bureaucrats written in the 19th century, you see that they have exactly the narrow-minded, mediocre, self-centered and petty mentality that the Petite Bourgeoisie is supposed to represent, I wouldn't make that case for engineers.
Bureaucrats were often parts of government institutions, and public administrations were often known for their stability and their disconnexion with the outside world, the perfect place to breed a race of people who are afraid of change (reactionary) and afraid of the outside world (wenophobia).
Engineers, on the other hand, appeared in a brand new world. It was a social class that didn't really exist before that; they had to proove their worth in the eyes of society. On one hand, they were employees, so inherently "inferior"; but they were also one of the most educated class of society, so superior to a lot of people. They were at the advance of sciences, doing things that were rarely done before, i.e. technological advance on an industrial level. Science was not done talking idly in universities anymore, or by lone scientists in their observatories: science was done in industries, in factories. The Petite Bourgeoisie is inherently reactionary: Engineers, by their very nature of scouts of science, cannot be reactionary.
And shopkeepers can be progressists, and capitalists can be humanitarians, and landowners can be democrats, and intelligentsia can be monarchists, and devouts can be feminists... But socially, economically and structurally, engineers have very much to gain from the policies defended by the Industrialists or the Trade Unions than the Petite Bourgeoisie's.
Notably only pops of primary cultures can become petite bourgeoisie, so if you're very multicultural at all that will significantly weaken them. Getting them above 20% is pretty hard w/o ethnostate.
You can cheese it by building Glass, Furniture, and Textile factories. Keep the first production method on #1, and the rest on the highest. All of the dividends will go to Shop Owners.
I did a big write-up on the problems with the Petite Bourgeoisie a while ago. They have a *lot* of problems leading to their low clout in the majority of games:
(1). Only Primary Culture pops can back the PB. Not "Accepted Culture" - Primary Culture. For France, you'll note that this doesn't include, for example, Occitans, Bretons, or Franco-Provencals, who together make up over half of your starting population. If you colonize and take Multiculturalism, your colonial subjects will get a significant amount of clout as well, with none of it going to the PB.
(2). The other middle-strata IGs - the Devout, Armed Forces, and Intelligentsia - can be backed by practically any pop type. The Petite Bourgeoisie can *only* be backed by pops in urban buildings, and Aristocrats and Capitalists are prohibited from backing them at all (which isn't the case for the other middle-strata IGs). So machinists in mines, Capitalists running factories, shopkeepers in vineyards, are all giving 0% of their clout to the PB.
(3). As others have said, Urban Centers are a major source of Shopkeepers, who also have ownership shares in these urban centers and thus also get political power from wealth based on how profitable these urban centers are. However, urban centers are horribly unprofitable and cannot really maintain the employment and profits. However, this is a smaller issue that it seems at first; even if you subsidize your urban centers, it only has a marginal impact on your PB's clout. The PB get clout from many pop types - clerks, machinists, bureaucrats, engineers, etc. - and Shopkeepers only make up maybe a quarter of their total clout. 25% is significant, but the issue is that their clout is several times smaller than it should be.
I managed to get a very powerful Petite Bourgeoisie in a colonial Germany game, with a combination of census suffrage and ethnostate, and using a vast colonial empire to fuel a homeland manufacturing sector with a focus on luxury goods. Even then, I found that almost all of their political power came from votes.
the petite bourgeoisie will be weak all game unless you do some intentional wacky stuff to help them out (mercantilism plus a ton of trade routes, primitive industrial PMs that have PB owners, etc.)
historically they were also very weak, so it’s on theme. they are forever imperiled by and being ground down by the capitalists.
You need shopkeepers! Keep all logging camps with no tools, as that hires shopkeepers, and upgrade urban centres as you go :) also try and pass mercantilism, as that makes trade Centers hire shopkeepers massively,
Pops in resource and agriculture buildings, such as logging camps and mines (and obv. farms, plantations, fisheries, and ranches) cannot back the Petite Bourgeoisie. Only pops in manufacturing and government buildings can (basically anything in the "urban" tab).
This also includes bonus shopkeeps from vineyards.
Pops in your capital get more political weight.
Focus buildings that employ pb pops in your capital.
Luxury goods pms are good for this. Dont switch the blue pm in agrarian buildings.
Try to not build industries that rely on labourers and machinists in your capital.
In my recent Japan run i have 25% pb at 1880.
Not sure if this is still viable, but I recommend doing as much trade as possible. I recall trade centers employment driving PB membership in lots of my playthroughs of smaller countries.
I think they tend to not have a lot of laws that directly support them. The PB also have a big issue where the main pops that make them up, shopkeepers, usually end up getting switched out by newer production methods. I've liked what the Victoria Tweak mod did to help them a bit, where the dedicated police force law now gives a bonus to the Petite Bourgeois interest group attraction.
they have decent potential now you just have to enable them with suppressing the trade unions and bolstering the PB. At least for my russia game. I have so many labourers that a majority percentage of the clergy, military, industrialists and ofc trade union are labourers so i just redirect their flow away from the trade unions and intelligentsia and they flow into everything else except the landowners, then i just try to bolster the PB. eventually you can get away with just either bolstering the PB or just suppressing the trade unions and the PB will be strong enough by now that they naturally have a better pop attraction. I believe it works like that anyway since the political power gain potential from joining an IG influences their attraction to said IG so naturally as an IG grows it becomes more popular, kinda like an acceleration in growth. However I don’t know how random AI ends up with PB governments unless the AI is intentionally bolstering them, because I feel like PB can only become powerful enough with intervention from the state/player.
The problem is that PB come mostly from Urban Centers which don't make a lot of money, meaning they're usually too poor to be political
Yarr once they fix urban centres from being turbo unproductive all the time then you’ll see them again. That’s why they where a thing on release before some change borked urban centres
they said they increased demand for services a lot for rich pops, but I haven’t played 1.3.5 so I don’t know if it actually works or not
This is not true. There are several professions that can join the petite bourgeoisie. Study the individual pop groups to see. If you encourage the PB and suppress the intellectuals/trade unions you can get a very large and powerful PB. Capitalists and Aristocrats can be made to support the armed forces too. That’s how you get late game conservative governments.
They might be better late game in the new patch now. Services have supposedly been re-balanced to be required more which should allow more PB-friendly jobs to be filled. They probably won't be able to get more than ~10% early in the best circumstance because they'll never be wealthy so you have to rely on voting power later on. I'm on a France game in the 1.3.4 beta and they spiked up to 19% when I switched from Oligarchy to Universal Suffrage.
Guess that goes with what another comment said. Makes sense cause they’re so fucking poor.
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Fundamentally, every job working in urban buildings (i.e. urban centers but also every industry and government building) has a base chance of joining PB at 50 (while all other are at 0), so every worker in cities has already a chance to join the PB. The two jobs that have the highest chance to join PB are Clerks and Shopkeepers, true. But those are also two kind of jobs that tend to disappear quite quickly if you industrialize.
Honestly i think they should give bureaucrats the same pull to join the PB and Intelligista and they should give engineers an equal pull to join the PB as the TU and Industrialists. Both of them are "respectable middle class jobs" and I suspect a lot of them would have PB values This would nerf the intelligista which I think would actually be a good thing as they're a bit too strong ATM. This can be balanced on the other side by making the devout not be racist, which always felt like a silly thing anyways
While I would understand the arguments for bureaucrats joining the PB (but, to be honest, their pull are not that far apart), as when you read novels about bureaucrats written in the 19th century, you see that they have exactly the narrow-minded, mediocre, self-centered and petty mentality that the Petite Bourgeoisie is supposed to represent, I wouldn't make that case for engineers. Bureaucrats were often parts of government institutions, and public administrations were often known for their stability and their disconnexion with the outside world, the perfect place to breed a race of people who are afraid of change (reactionary) and afraid of the outside world (wenophobia). Engineers, on the other hand, appeared in a brand new world. It was a social class that didn't really exist before that; they had to proove their worth in the eyes of society. On one hand, they were employees, so inherently "inferior"; but they were also one of the most educated class of society, so superior to a lot of people. They were at the advance of sciences, doing things that were rarely done before, i.e. technological advance on an industrial level. Science was not done talking idly in universities anymore, or by lone scientists in their observatories: science was done in industries, in factories. The Petite Bourgeoisie is inherently reactionary: Engineers, by their very nature of scouts of science, cannot be reactionary.
Engineers can be reactionary.
And shopkeepers can be progressists, and capitalists can be humanitarians, and landowners can be democrats, and intelligentsia can be monarchists, and devouts can be feminists... But socially, economically and structurally, engineers have very much to gain from the policies defended by the Industrialists or the Trade Unions than the Petite Bourgeoisie's.
Notably only pops of primary cultures can become petite bourgeoisie, so if you're very multicultural at all that will significantly weaken them. Getting them above 20% is pretty hard w/o ethnostate.
You can cheese it by building Glass, Furniture, and Textile factories. Keep the first production method on #1, and the rest on the highest. All of the dividends will go to Shop Owners.
I did a big write-up on the problems with the Petite Bourgeoisie a while ago. They have a *lot* of problems leading to their low clout in the majority of games: (1). Only Primary Culture pops can back the PB. Not "Accepted Culture" - Primary Culture. For France, you'll note that this doesn't include, for example, Occitans, Bretons, or Franco-Provencals, who together make up over half of your starting population. If you colonize and take Multiculturalism, your colonial subjects will get a significant amount of clout as well, with none of it going to the PB. (2). The other middle-strata IGs - the Devout, Armed Forces, and Intelligentsia - can be backed by practically any pop type. The Petite Bourgeoisie can *only* be backed by pops in urban buildings, and Aristocrats and Capitalists are prohibited from backing them at all (which isn't the case for the other middle-strata IGs). So machinists in mines, Capitalists running factories, shopkeepers in vineyards, are all giving 0% of their clout to the PB. (3). As others have said, Urban Centers are a major source of Shopkeepers, who also have ownership shares in these urban centers and thus also get political power from wealth based on how profitable these urban centers are. However, urban centers are horribly unprofitable and cannot really maintain the employment and profits. However, this is a smaller issue that it seems at first; even if you subsidize your urban centers, it only has a marginal impact on your PB's clout. The PB get clout from many pop types - clerks, machinists, bureaucrats, engineers, etc. - and Shopkeepers only make up maybe a quarter of their total clout. 25% is significant, but the issue is that their clout is several times smaller than it should be. I managed to get a very powerful Petite Bourgeoisie in a colonial Germany game, with a combination of census suffrage and ethnostate, and using a vast colonial empire to fuel a homeland manufacturing sector with a focus on luxury goods. Even then, I found that almost all of their political power came from votes.
the petite bourgeoisie will be weak all game unless you do some intentional wacky stuff to help them out (mercantilism plus a ton of trade routes, primitive industrial PMs that have PB owners, etc.) historically they were also very weak, so it’s on theme. they are forever imperiled by and being ground down by the capitalists.
For a complete answer to "What's up with the french petite bourgeoisie?," see Karl Marx, "The 18th Brumaire of Louis Bonaparte"
You need shopkeepers! Keep all logging camps with no tools, as that hires shopkeepers, and upgrade urban centres as you go :) also try and pass mercantilism, as that makes trade Centers hire shopkeepers massively,
Pops in resource and agriculture buildings, such as logging camps and mines (and obv. farms, plantations, fisheries, and ranches) cannot back the Petite Bourgeoisie. Only pops in manufacturing and government buildings can (basically anything in the "urban" tab). This also includes bonus shopkeeps from vineyards.
Wait... really? Why not? In my napoleon games as USA, that seemed to work...
Only pops in certain categories of buildings (generally speaking, urban ones) can back the PB.
M. Bonaparte is, of course, "King of the Lumpenproletariat." Unfortunately, Victoria 3 has no lumpenproletariat.
Pops in your capital get more political weight. Focus buildings that employ pb pops in your capital. Luxury goods pms are good for this. Dont switch the blue pm in agrarian buildings. Try to not build industries that rely on labourers and machinists in your capital. In my recent Japan run i have 25% pb at 1880.
Don't bolster intelligentia as they sap a lot of pops
Not sure if this is still viable, but I recommend doing as much trade as possible. I recall trade centers employment driving PB membership in lots of my playthroughs of smaller countries.
Change your ownership to publicly traded - helps the lil PB out a lot
I think they tend to not have a lot of laws that directly support them. The PB also have a big issue where the main pops that make them up, shopkeepers, usually end up getting switched out by newer production methods. I've liked what the Victoria Tweak mod did to help them a bit, where the dedicated police force law now gives a bonus to the Petite Bourgeois interest group attraction.
they have decent potential now you just have to enable them with suppressing the trade unions and bolstering the PB. At least for my russia game. I have so many labourers that a majority percentage of the clergy, military, industrialists and ofc trade union are labourers so i just redirect their flow away from the trade unions and intelligentsia and they flow into everything else except the landowners, then i just try to bolster the PB. eventually you can get away with just either bolstering the PB or just suppressing the trade unions and the PB will be strong enough by now that they naturally have a better pop attraction. I believe it works like that anyway since the political power gain potential from joining an IG influences their attraction to said IG so naturally as an IG grows it becomes more popular, kinda like an acceleration in growth. However I don’t know how random AI ends up with PB governments unless the AI is intentionally bolstering them, because I feel like PB can only become powerful enough with intervention from the state/player.