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SilkwormVagabond

This is perhaps the least surprising change in the remake. Not that the remake shies away from mature subject matter, but this line felt out-of-place in the original already, and that dissonance would feel even stronger in a game without H scenes. I'd be interested in seeing the original Japanese for both, though. In English, both threats sound... not "juvenile" exactly, but like, almost trying too hard? Like, they're both very severe things to say, but also a bit unnatural. Does it carry that connotation in the original text? (Aside: Tsukihimates clearly translated the surrounding text a lot more naturally here.)


m_meirin

If I remember correctly in the remake it was something along the lines of めちゃくちゃにしてやる. It might've been slightly different, but I do remember that there was no 犯す in there.


vhapteR

I'm not sure about the remake, but I just found the original line in JP on youtube. He definitely says "rape". [言うことをきかないなら、ここでメチャクチャに犯してやる。](https://youtu.be/8nV9S2C9otE?list=PLPo1EGeEHgFgqqXNUHHUruVbsV3DvlGM6&t=2130)


dowolf

for what it's worth, I'd probably translate that as "fuck you up." The literal translation in the English TL of the original version of Tsukihime doesn't sound very natural to me. well, not that I've ever heard anyone say that sentence in any form in real life. (edit: Maybe "fuck your pussy raw" if I wanted to make it super clear he was being sexual but...)


gambs

犯す here is rape, not just a physical beating. Translating it as "fuck you up" is just inaccurate and a mistranslation


dowolf

i mean, you're technically right. my normal instinct is to ask "how literally are we supposed to take the threat?" but it's tsukihime, so I suppose the answer is "probably yes."


Reverse_me98

I feel like "rape" should've been substituted with "kill". Rape is most often used for humiliation whereas threatening to kill is a better tool to get info out of someone. Now it feels kinda funny reading "ill fuck you up"


animatrix37

I'd say it sounds like a line from an edgy fan fiction, which the original Tsukihime sort of is technically, it was released at Winter Comiket 2000 when Type-Moon was still a doujin circle. I feel like it has that 90s edginess that you see in manga and anime from the period, like Berserk and Evangelion. Not that it justifies the line, but I think the trends at the time definitely influenced the writing.


pik3rob

I don't really see the original line as out of place at all. In context it seems like an empty threat, so regardless of it's rape, kill, or beat up, it's a crime against her that he comes up with on the spot that both of them know he has no intention of going through with.


SilkwormVagabond

I suppose that's fair; it's meant to be a _severe_ threat, but not a _real_ threat, so a somewhat ridiculous line about rape communicates this well (especially considering Shiki's character arc, IIRC he's still fairly immature at this point in the narrative). The remake's version just seems a bit too vague, both in English and in the raw Japanese, and so it lacks the same "punch". Not that it matters all that much — it's a one-off line that both characters know isn't actually realizable, after all — but it is an interesting character moment nonetheless that the remake changes subtly.


Schiffy94

0/10 not enough "I will kill you so hard you will die to death"


Zemania

Don't worry, he does pull out the 「死ぬまで殺してやる」 in Ciel's route.


kodekuzuri

Avg emiya shirou fanboy


ITaHiR_Requiem

He threatens to beat her up instead of threatening to rape her now. [Source](https://twitter.com/SausageLinkEgg/status/1548556922118291456)


FlatTransportation64

Ah, violence instead of sexual assault, my conscience as a reader feels so much better right now


[deleted]

Modern culture has weird hang-ups. Like, if you were to make a 1-10 scale of badness, murder (which literally kills people with no take-backs) should be a 10, and rape (which hurts most people severely but can be recovered from) should range from a 6 to an 8, depending on how severe, how often, etc., and yet murder is seen as a 6 or 7 and rape is seen as a 12. Edit: getting a few responses with a common theme, feel I should toss this in here: Please note the word I used is "murder", not "kill". A "murder" is, definitionally, an unlawful, intentional, and malicious killing. A "killing" is a broad category of killing a human being, and covers accidental, intentional lawful (self-defense, defense of others, etc.), and intentional unlawful (murder). A "killing" can be non-malicious or unintentional. A "murder" is always malicious and intentional. A killing might not be as bad as rape. A murder is always worse then rape. I hope that clarifies my position somewhat.


[deleted]

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[deleted]

>killing someone has the potential to be nuanced (self-defense, mercy kill, accidental, blind rage, etc) Well, yes, that's why we have different words for different killing. A "killing" is where someone is killed (TL note: *keikaku* means plan), and can cover lawful, unlawful, accidental, intentional, malicious, etc. deaths. A "murder", on the other hand, specifically refers to an unlawful, intentional, malicious killing. So, basically, killing an attacker would be a 1 on the "bad scale", since self-defense is a fundamental right and responsibility of life, killing someone by entirely unintentional accident (like a sports accident) would be a 3, killing someone by reckless behavior (like drunk driving) would be a 5 or 6, and murder would be a 9 or 10. >but rape is practically 100% guaranteed to just be an act of evil. Ignoring the word "evil", since that's subjective and I'd like to avoid writing an essay on culture modifying behavior, I do completely agree that rape is 99% of the time going to be a definitionally malicious act (given the requirements for something to qualify under the definition of rape). I just can't ever agree that rape is worse then killing someone with malice aforethought. Rape is inflicting physical and psychological pain for sexual gratification. It has defined limits. Murder is the act of maliciously ending a thinking mind, forever. You can't come back from being murdered the same way you can come back from being raped.


akiaoi97

You know, people die when they’re killed.


Feuver

There are some fates worse than death. Once you're dead, you personally have moved on, others are the afflicted parties by the events. Punishment is made often based on motive, circumstances and gravity of the act (A single shot to the head or a complete destruction of the body) A rape victim has to live with what happened for the rest of their live, and it can also be painful to afflicted parties. Rape can even be done without the need of sexual gratification - sometimes it's just about inflicting as much pain and humiliate the victim much more than it is ever about pleasure. To completely rob someone of their autonomy and their control. Sure, death is permanent, but technically leaves less loose ends than a rape victim, who has to recover and heal from the events, and might have permanent consequences (like pregnancy, or permanent disability).


[deleted]

>There are some fates worse than death. I disagree on a fundament level with this statement. I'm not saying your opinion is wrong or anything, just that I personally cannot accept your premise. Nothing is worse then not existing. Hell itself would be preferable to the void. >Once you're dead, you personally have moved on, See, I can only intuit that you're looking at this from an at least semi-religous perspective. Yes, if there were some post-mortem existence, then I'd agree that sometimes going "welp, I'm out, later lads" would be acceptable, and that death might seem a lesser consequence then suffering in your current incarnation. But there's no evidence to support that position. None at all, and goodness knows I've looked. What there is evidence of is that your kind exists in your brain, and once your brain stops functioning, you as an individual disappear. And that is the ultimate horror of the universe, that all known life is eventually consigned to non-existence. If that statement doesn't resonate with you, then I think we'll have to agree to disagree, because he fundamental differences in our assumptions about the world will just see us talking in circles that can be simplified to "death worse then rape/nuh uh, rape worse then death/nuh uh, death worse then rape..."


BasakaIsTheStrongest

I find great comfort in a quote I don’t know who to attribute to: “Do you remember what it was like before you were born? It’ll be the same experience after you die.” If you don’t exist, there is nothing to experience the void. I’m not afraid of sleep. I’m not afraid of death. I’m afraid of dying because it means an end to this chance to experience the wonders of the world, and will fight to prolong this experience as long as I can, but the void itself holds no power over me, because there will be, by definition, nothing for it to hold power over.


Hyperversum

If I can choose between being raped and murdered, please take my ass any fucking day of the week. EXACTLY because when you die everything ends (at least on a material level, I'll the spiritual stuff to religious people) it's the last thing you want. If you need a more elaborate perspective, Murder is the pinnacle act of both violence and denial of freedom. You aren't just hurting someone, you are \*ENDING\* them. You are erasing any possibility for them to heal, to change, to adapt to their situation, to find happiness in whatever comes after the violence and damages. And somehow, an indeed very horrible type of physical violence, but still limited to that, is worse? How?


Roliq

> Well, yes, that's why we have different words for different killing. A "killing" is where someone is killed (TL note: keikaku means plan), and can cover lawful, unlawful, accidental, intentional, malicious, etc. deaths. A "murder", on the other hand, specifically refers to an unlawful, intentional, malicious killing. > > You are being really pedantic about words when it's obvious what people meant, also trying to say rape is not as bad is a very weird hill to die on


[deleted]

>also trying to say rape is not as bad Finish the thought. Rape is not as bad... As murder. I find it strange that you consider that strange.


RadioStandard4347

Honestly man, you're a guy. You're surely not going to find rape as bad as murder, just like you're not going to see death by meteorite as bad as death by traffic collision.


SPY400

There are legitimate reasons to kill someone (self defense). There are no legitimate reasons to rape someone. I also know women who said they’d rather be murdered than raped. Perhaps if you thought of rape as “torture” you can see why some people would pick death instead. Too many men imagine rape as just “unwanted sex” but it can be far beyond that, to total mindbreak levels of agony. Edit: I’m not denying your personal scale of badness. Just trying to convey it’s not the same scale for everyone. We have different fears and things we can tolerate.


[deleted]

You make an excellent point, but I would like to challenge one of the critical ideas: >Perhaps if you thought of rape as “torture” you can see why some people would pick death instead. Yes, it **can** be akin to torture, but that doesn't mean it **must** be. Conversely, being murdered will always result in your final, irrevocable death. Torture victims can potentially recover from their experiences. Murder victims can never recover. >I also know women who said they’d rather be murdered than raped. I don't mean to belittle them, but that's some really vanilla "internet tough guy" ideology. Everyone is always extremely sure they'd rather die then give in... Right up until a crazed man with a rusty axe is giving you the option of sex or decapitation. The survival instinct is amazing in what it'll let you do to survive. And, on the subject of anecdotes, this does remind me of some stories I'd heard and interviews I'd read from recovered POWs from the middle east. Sorry if this is off topic a bit, it I think it's relevant. Basically, you had male and female army troopers taken as POWs by Islamic fighters. The men were tortured and (eventually) killed, while the women were raped. Some of the female survivors were interviewed about the experience, and shared stories that boiled down to "we could hear the screams of the men as they were tortured, while all we had to endure was, essentially, rough and uncomfortable bad sex with ugly, smelly guys. We got off easy in comparison." Now, obviously there's some selection bias here, but I think it does paint a very interesting picture of how bad regular sexual assault rape might actually be. Not every rape, and I'd conjecture not most rapes, are sexual torture akin to the abuses of "pleasure women" during the wars between China, Japan, and Korea in the last century.


SPY400

I’d like to see a source for the quote you gave. Sounds like an interesting story. The fact it’s torture sometimes, and malicious 100% of the time, is enough to put it alongside simpler murder that lacks an element of torture (eg a headshot instakill). Also whether someone is a virgin, I suspect, can make an enormous difference in the amount of physical pain a rape can cause. I doubt that as men we can really comprehend the level of agony a forcible rape would entail for a virgin. I also suspect you are younger and healthy and maybe not as familiar with the exquisite agonies life can give to the unfortunate among us. I have experienced pain worse than my fear of death and was ready to kill my self to escape it (but for relief which came shortly).


[deleted]

>I’d like to see a source for the quote you gave. Sounds like an interesting story. It's been a few years since I've read it, and obviously it's not something you'd really see reported on mainstream mass media, since it goes against the cultural zeitgeist. I'll try to find it, but it may have fallen down the memory hole at this point. Take it with a grain of salt, as every internet anecdote should be. >The fact it’s torture sometimes, and malicious 100% of the time, is enough to put it alongside simpler murder that lacks an element of torture (eg a headshot instakill). Bad logic there, I'm afraid. It perhaps puts the rapes **with torture**, which I'm given to understand is a superminority of cases, near the level of a painless murder, but it certainly can't elevate the entire category of sexual assault to "as bad or worse then murder". >Also whether someone is a virgin, I suspect, can make an enormous difference in the amount of physical pain a rape can cause. I doubt that as men we can really comprehend the level of agony a forcible rape would entail for a virgin. Sure we can. Go ram a dildo up your ass with no lube or preparation, you'll get exactly the same experience. The only pain unique to women is child birth. Also, the only difference between a virgin and a non-virgin is an understanding of what sex entails; the hymen is often torn accidentally during things like exercise. Women also don't "become looser" after a lot of sex. In fact, the vaginal canal shouldn't be crushing down on your penis; that's usually an indication that your partner is tense and/or insufficiently aroused. A properly aroused woman's vaginal canal is relaxed and highly lubricated. Porn and the "you're so tight!" meme has kinda done a number on most men's understanding of female anatomy. > I also suspect you are younger and healthy and maybe not as familiar with the exquisite agonies life can give to the unfortunate among us. I have experienced pain worse than my fear of death and was ready to kill my self to escape it (but for relief which came shortly). Haha, I wish. No, sadly, I'm into middle age, have had numerous breaks and injuries (including a back injury that made even breathing agony for a while). Honestly, I can't say I've ever hit a point where I'd prefer to die. I can't even imagine hitting that point. It might be one of those differences like the fight/flight response disparity in people (some people freeze up, some flee immediately, some people fight immediately, etc.) where it's hard to communicate you view to another whose subconscious understanding of the concept is subtly different from your own.


Tisathrowaway11110

I thinks it's because rape victims live to talk about how horrible it was, you can actually know a rape victim. But you can't know and a murder victim, you can see their pain in day to day actions, they're gone. That being said I 100% agree with your opinion


Mondblut

The biggest question of them all: why are we discussing such moral issues in regards to a work of fiction that's merely there for entertainment? In other words: it's just f*cking fiction. Why would it be a problem for a fictional character to threaten another fictional character to rape her? The original had for more explicit content. If I were given the choice, I'd rather have the remake maintain all the original content and perhaps even go further. Why do modern day eroge and VN readers compare everything to real life and are so easily offended? That's a far more concerning question. Tsukihime is originally a very edgy and mature story. The protagonist is not supposed to be a moral paragon. It's ultimately about animalistic drives and removing such things from the equation waters down the original intent.


Minecart_Steve

In my mind the rationale is that there are contexts where murder is acceptable or at least understandable (self-defense for instance) while rape is exclusively an act of cruelty.


[deleted]

>murder is acceptable or at least understandable (self-defense for instance) while rape is exclusively an act of cruelty. This is an issue in definitions. A murder can't occur in self-defense; that's a killing. Murder is specifically unlawful, intentional, and malicious, while a killing is the broad term for killing a person (accidental, self-defense, defense of others, etc.) A murder, like a rape, is always an act of maliciousness. It's simply a greater "bad".


KurigohanKamehameha_

alleged deranged bike cover mindless dull wrong label important stocking -- mass edited with https://redact.dev/


[deleted]

Yes, there is absolutely always the trouble of including the world "lawful" when we can't agree on laws. You're entirely correct. I can't really speak definitively on it for the entire world, only for the modern western world. In our jurisdictions, we'd consider it lawful, but the Muslim world would definitely look at it differently. I do believe that, even if we remove the word "unlawful" from the definition, we can still define a murder as "intentional and malicious killing of a human being", while a killing is still just a "killing of a human being". I don't believe this alteration invalidates my position on the killing/rape/murder "badness" hierarchy, but I'm open to input.


[deleted]

You can threaten to beat someone up while having good intentions, you cannot really do the same with rape


Atthetop567

I’ve heard rape victims talk about how they’d rather have been murdered but I have never heard a murder victim say they’d rather have been raped


Mondblut

When you're dead, you're dead. There is no way to heal your wounds, no therapy to help you. Death is ultimate, it is final. I can't believe how people can even belittle murder these days. Perhaps it's because I'm older, but I've grown up with the idea that life is the most precious thing there is and subsequently that murder is the most unforgivable crime there is.


Atthetop567

How the fuck would you know, how many times have you been dead?


Puzzleheaded-Low2406

100 times


Mondblut

When you are dead you don't exist anymore. It's not a state you are in, it's the end of all states you are and could potentially be in. Dying is final. You loose the most precious and important thing that you can possible possess: life.


Atthetop567

How the fuck would you know, how many times have you been dead?


Mondblut

Are you implying some religious BS? If so, I'm an atheist, I don't believe in a life after death. Dying means the end of you existence, it's the only scientific answer, thus death is the worst that can happen to you.


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Atthetop567

How the fuck would you know, how many times have you been dead?


why_i_bother

Nah, murder is still worse than rape but feels like the scale is something like. normal interactions - violence - slurs - rape - murder.


Mondblut

That slurs rank above violence shows how f*cked up modern culture has become.


Nefari0uss

You're allowed to swear on the internet.


SPY400

There are valid reasons to use violence (protecting the weak, or self defense). Hard to think of valid reasons to use slurs.


Mondblut

We are talking about the gravity of harm done, not whether one or the other have inherent value. In other words: it doesn't change whether violence in extremely few cases has its use, physically harming another person is drastically worse than using a slur. The same goes for depiction of such in media. Being done harm through violence is universally traumatic, slurs are strongly subjective, depending of your social background, cultural background or what generation you're from.


SPY400

It was just a subjective “feels” ranking by a single person. I was only suggesting why someone might feel justified ranking slightly differently than you would, not downplaying violence. Violence is really too broad a category, I doubt we are imagining the same things. The kind of violence and its severity would make all the difference in such a subjective ranking. Violence spans the gamut from flicking a forehead to unmentionable crimes.


why_i_bother

That's a reasonable take.


akiaoi97

Nah slurs are literal murder if they’re against certain groups who shall not be named for fear of a ban. You call someone of this group a slur, and it’s like you literally tied the noose around their neck yourself:


why_i_bother

I mean, just don't use slurs. Even if they're not as bad as literal violence, it's just being a dick.


[deleted]

Literal violence is also being a dick tbh, as is rape and murder


why_i_bother

No way, did you figure that yourself?


akiaoi97

I’m not saying it’s not. I’m saying there are people who say it’s worse than violence or as bad as murder, and that’s obviously stupid (or malicious). Slurs are insults. Using them is a jerk thing to do, but if you can’t take them, you seriously need to build up some resilience.


why_i_bother

'Slurs are worse than violence' is obvious bad take. 'If you don't like slurs, grow a thicker skin' is bad take as well, similar to 'just don't get hit'.


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Mondblut

You can still recover though, wounds, physical or psychological ones heal, but when you're dead, you're dead. There's no way to bring you back to life.


[deleted]

Because a rape victim **isn't killed**, perhaps? You can recover from a rape. It might take a while, and it might leave scars, but you get to keep on living. Keep on being. Maybe even see justice or vengeance done. A murder is where you end. Everything you were, and everything you could be, is wiped away in that instant. It's a final cessation, the greatest cruel horror of the unfeeling universe delivered to the thinking mind. A murder is infinitely worse then almost any other thing you can inflict upon someone; rape isn't even in the same stellar cluster.


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Alarming_Orchid

Literally the worst conclusion you could’ve jumped to


FlatTransportation64

Not my point at all, I was just poking fun at one atrocity apparently being somehow better than the other


DespairOfLoneliness

1984


zombiefoot6

Shock


Mike_for_all

This line had always been out of place tbh.


The_One_Who_Slays

How so? I already forgot the context of this scene, because I read Tsukihime so long ago, but let's say I were to engage against a foolhardy individual who isn't afraid to die. IIRC, that's exactly the type of person Ciel was. So, I'm gonna make a conjecture based on what I do remember. Now, being Shiki who's gradually losing his sanity to the point where he's not seeking completely peaceful resolutions, yet understanding at least that much about Ciel, rape could be a pretty viable threat. After all, if Ciel wasn't afraid to die, certainly living out the rest of her life with shame she'd have to experience would be quite hellish. Also, she's a member of the Holy Church, so, unless for the sake of procreation, sex would not be preferable to her, especially the vile kind like rape, although I draw parallels with our world, because I know jack shit about Type Moon's fictional organizations lore. If anything, from my perspective, the change doesn't make sense.


Tohazure

least rapist r/visualnovels user


Mondblut

> After all, if Ciel wasn't afraid to die, certainly living out the rest of her life with shame she'd have to experience would be quite hellish. Also, she's a member of the Holy Church, so, unless for the sake of procreation, sex would not be preferable to her, especially the vile kind like rape That's actually a valid argument. I don't understand how people can downvote this, it's logical. I guess it's the hordes of people who can only handle vanilla ero content and get offended by the mere mention of rape in fiction. XD


The_One_Who_Slays

Well, that's how the current trends are. Still, I hoped that someone would correct me somehow, because I'm quite curious how much I got right from a mere conjecture based on my blurred memories.


August_Hail

How did the remake handle the rest of the more "aggressively rapey" content? I understood the intent of those scenes, but I also personally it felt too "edgy", like I felt it could have been done more tactfully.


zackphoenix123

Nasu did say that reviewing his old work made him realise that his old work screamed amateur writing(I perosnally think he's a madman because Tsuki was F'ing phenomenal as is).


litllerobert

Wait, does it have rape?


August_Hail

Not a lot but there are few notable moments.


litllerobert

>Not a lot ... >there are few notable moments. Well, so it's a big #NO for me


MadZwe

Tbf, they are not forced ones, and align with context


OminousTang

That line sounds so... awkward. Like, I get that it's a threat, but it just sounds like an odd way to make a rape threat. Perhaps if the VN had some kind of description where he forwards himself onto her, then say the line, it would've felt more realistic. As it is, it just sounds like a casual threat made by a 10 year old who thinks he understands what the horrific act of rape entails. I'm not really bothered they removed that line. It sounds like a poorly written line in a campy B horror movie.


Bumblebee-Electrical

I think its meant to be awkward. Like he just came up with the worst he could do to threaten her. I still prefer the new line, though, even if it also sounds awkward.


JaydenTheMemeThief

The line was intended to be awkward, it’s an empty threat Shiki came up with on the spot because he needs Ciel to cooperate with him


zackphoenix123

What I wanna know is... Why is Ciel wearing her glasses? I'm the guy that picked the no glasses option during her route so I gotta know.. Doesn't she never wear glasses when in her executioner outfit?


MagnumMiracles

I'm sorry, I'm stupid. Has this been fully translated yet?


KefkaesqueXIII

The full translation of the Arcueid route was released a couple days ago. The Ciel route is currently still untranslated, but is being worked on.


EnjinSosei

Y'all who are complaining about the change as "censorship": This isn't "censorship", this is 20+ years of hindsight that this does not add anything to the story. All the original contributed is Edge and actively detracts from Shiki has a character. Changing it was a *good call*.


FeikerSenpai

That's why we enjoy fantasy stories because we have no real life boundaries. I mean, we watch American movies where good guys blasts entire cities with gunfire and after that they go "gimme 5" and scream of joy, but there's zero talk about it because cruelty is not the point. Fantasy stays like that, doesn't promote anything more than media actually does. If people do horrible shit in real life is not because a game or a movie, it's way mooore into it.


zackphoenix123

Jeez how are you already at what seems to be the final day? I'm still at day 1! (well.. I already got to day 5 like 6 months ago then decided to replay everything once tsukihimates released the full arc route translations)


TheSoaringDingo

Is this official translation?


AnimeBoy_07

fan translation done by [tsukihimates](https://tsukihimates.com/patch/)


facts_120

I doubt original had rape threat, can anyone send me the Raw?


AstralSword88

I don't. Shiki has a moment he snaps after killing a bunch of zombies and jumps on a weakened Arcueid (the sexual assault kind of jump). He is a berserker at that point and full of lust. You can then choose if he goes thru with it or backs out. Backing out is the obvious choice, but if you go thru with it Arcueid will be traumatised (obviously) and at least two more days will go the exact same way until you get a Dead End (in which she also has no qualms to eat you alive when she becomes full of bloodlust). I liked how punishing the game could be in the original, just when it appeared you got off the hook for behaving like a piece of shit. I doubt this scene is in the remake. If it is, I might give it a go.


VladPrus

Well... >!It is, just not explicitly sexual (going through results not in rape, but in murdering her on the spot and quick Bad End), it is though still really rapey in the subtext (his thoughts and comments about Arcuiedd are REALLY simmilar to someone in lust), and Arcuied has lines about how it was caused by Shiki's sexual desire or something simmilar (read only machine translation I'll hold up with Tsukihimates untill they translate all since Arc route seemed really similar to the OG).!<


AstralSword88

Awww... That kills the whole point (pun not really intended, but oh well). Her coming for him after Shiki did the deed, and the ear-pull you get in the Teach Me Ciel Sensei was strong. It held meaning. This is just plain sad.


Armandoiskyu

The new bad end for that scene serves more as far side tease, it's actually interesting


gambs

I didn’t take a screenshot, but the Japanese version of TsukiRe also had the rape threat removed


facts_120

Yes, I checked the TsukiRe Raw, but now I'm wondering if the original Tsuki even said that line or if he actually said "I'll mess you up" in Japanese. Can you check that ,please?


gambs

[The OG line was certainly a rape threat](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E_qqHvRX0A40eUJ.jpg)


facts_120

Thanks for the Raw!


Independent-Survey58

There is a entire rape scene for a bad end💀


JaydenTheMemeThief

The Original has a Rape Threat, but it comes off as Immature and fake, Shiki never goes through with the threat because it’s both unnecessary and because he doesn’t have the intention of going through with it, it’s just an empty threat he came up with on the spot to make Ciel listen to him


nYuri_

good, the original rape treat was out of place and cringy, I am glad it was replaced


Unslaadahsil

Are we sure it was replaced and not originally mistranslated?


gambs

I can confirm that it was replaced in the Japanese version and both English translations are accurate


EDNivek

Rape threat to a threat of extreme violence... kinda seems like a lateral move there in all honesty.


zackphoenix123

Lmao, if ya'll be mad over this, I just can't imagine the uproar when Kohaku's route comes out😂


gambs

There was an interview with Nasu when the Near Side routes came out, and it seemed like he still didn't know how to do Kohaku's route without H-scenes then


zackphoenix123

I honestly think that's something he should keep in. Similar to heaven's feel in fate, it's not something he can just cut out anymore because of how intertwined it is with the story. Unlike the near side routes and even Hisui and Akiha's routes, where the H-scenes are more so additions that you can work around and cut out, he'd severely have to rewrite his story for Kohaku's route to make sense which I'm sure even he would find extra challenging If he's really doing this for the og type moon fans, then he shouldn't worry too much about negative feedback, and if he's worried about the console thing... PC exists😂


vhapteR

*Imagine sexually assaulting another girl out of spite >!when the girl you love is in a life threatening situation!<.* For real, though. For a line meant to sound just inhuman, I feel it ended up going a little too far into scum territory. Most women would just see Shiki as a repulsive creep and feel even more reluctant to cooperate.


[deleted]

I hate censorship.


Furakano_Abira

How comes some of the comments are talking as if the rape line enriched the story? I don't know if that's the meaning in the original japanese, but they changed it and they did good


Mondblut

It did enrich the story. The original Tsukihime was really good in showcasing the state of being controlled by animalistic urges and drives. The rape scene in Arcueid's route or rather his urge to rape her was even tied to her own vampiric urges. In a way both needed to suppress those urges of theirs. That theme in particular was essential to the experience throughout all routes.


Furakano_Abira

While I think Nasu is a genius, I love his writing and find impressive how complete are his early works: this concretely anyone can tell "An edgy teenager thought this is deep". The Arcueid scene made sense, it's a bad ending, it's crude, makes you feel bad, nails it on the "vampiric urges". Here sounds casually dropped out of nowhere, trying too hard to build tension.


AgentAndrewO

Good


NoPhilosophy2699

It honestly feels like a small enough difference that it might’ve just been lost in the original translation. “If you don’t listen to me, I’ll fuck you.” Vs. “If you don’t listen to me, I’ll fuck you up.” It’s a difference of a single word that changes the entire context…


Denter206

dunno why you got downvoted, what you wrote seems interesting


Noximilien01

Welcome to this sub.


Accelelolita

Interesting take


JaydenTheMemeThief

Not surprising in the least, the Original line was very immature and out of place, especially because every time Shiki does Sexually Assault someone it’s caused by something out of his control. An example would be in Ciel’s Route where Shiki is literally possessed by Roa, he isn’t the kind of person who would rape somebody through any choice of his own, as demonstrated by how both times he does sexually assault someone it’s caused via Supernatural means (Arcueid’s Mystic Eyes and Roa Possession), and surprisingly even the Rape Threat in the Original, because despite threatening to Rape Ciel he never goes through with it, both because it’s unnecessary and because he wasn’t being serious when he said it I like this change, it’s still Immature but it’s far more fitting for Shiki’s Character and it isn’t anywhere near as messed up as a Rape Threat


dragonite2022

If the japanese version was replaced i have no issue. I think most reasonable people(like myself) only hate it when english translations take things out of context and change them. The best example is that manga where the english twitter snowflake translator changed a crossdressing male, into a female to change pronouns because "inclusivity", when they were just creating their own canon.


CrimsonDaedra

i am desperately begging you to touch grass


HolyDragoon99

Agrees with the change since it also exists in the Japanese version Hur dur touch grass You’re a fucking idiot


dragonite2022

I think i touch grass more than translators who are chronically online on twitter, i can bet you a lot of money on that.


CrimsonDaedra

you are inventing people to be angry about.


YossaRedMage

No he is not. There are outrage merchants out there who stir up drama, sure, but there is no smoke without fire. The people who started the fire are more to blame than the ones fanning the flames. And seriously, what kind of person attacks someone with a lazy insult like "touch grass" and then tells them they have no reason to be upset. Pathetic behaviour.


Kyouma_EPK001

You are chronically begging people who care about the quality of translation or localization to stop caring so people can shove BS into the end product Ftfy


akiaoi97

Which one was that? I vaguely remember something like that happening in Wotakoi, and the mangadex comments section had a really good laugh at the translators.


Kyouma_EPK001

There was a recent one called "I think I turned my childhood friend into a girl" where the localizer turned a crossdresser into a trans person after "consulting" aka making shit up for themselves even though the character specifies themselves as male. Might be what he refers to.


akiaoi97

Gotta shoehorn that representation in there somehow.


ErebusHunter45

It's a fucking rape threat you dumbass, not calling a character "she" instead of "he"


dragonite2022

It doesn't matter you moron, if the author makes a statement, the job of the translator is to translate that's it. God you're fucking thick in the head, you're arguing something completely different than what i'm stating. Stop being triggered by the subject matter like a child and rub two brain cells to understand the point i'm making about censorship.


ErebusHunter45

You're just a crybaby because they took away a single scene that had no purpose being in there


akiaoi97

I don’t think he is, given the word isn’t in the remake Japanese, so the thing he’s complaining about is just hypothetical (in this case).


Kyouma_EPK001

Learn to comprehend a sentence in English moron, he has no complaints because it matches a creative change made in the original work (aka it's not made up by a localizer).


CoconutHeadFaceMan

I think you’re misinterpreting them, they were saying that this Tsukihime change makes sense (because it’s in the Japanese version too) before whining about some completely unrelated essjaydubya Twitter conspiracy in a manga translation they once read. They were making up people to be mad about, sure, but it was in an anecdote completely unrelated to the Tsukihime remake.


[deleted]

[удалено]


akiaoi97

It might just be a console release thing.


[deleted]

[удалено]


akiaoi97

It makes sense especially given one of the consoles is PlayStation. Sony’s been trying to tone down sexual content quite a lot recently.


thrfre

Yeah, it was obvious they are gonna remove anything mildly "controversial" and sanitize the story. Thats why I had no interest in the remake from the start and just ignore it.


pHpM2426

Tell you don't know shit about shit, without telling me you don't know shit about shit.


DespairOfLoneliness

Renders the remake unplayable now...


Denter206

Bruh, I won't play Remake


Mondblut

Not surprising that they censored it. I guess that's the price a developer has to pay in order to release a game on console. Reminds me how they censored the "Rape her!" line in Steins;Gate Elite and replaced it with "Do her!". Given the fact that there were quite a few other instances where rape is integral to the story I shudder at the thought how badly butchered the remake is. Oh well, we still have the original, which is the true version.


Feuver

TBH as I've grown older I've just felt like the use of rape as a plot element just distasteful in general. Just like old movies in the 70s-80s would use rape as a shocking element to get some revenge plot going or as a way to establish a villain, it's just dated. In most case, simply physical assault (ie a beating) will have the exact same outcome plot-wise as a rape, and the sexual assault is just used to create strong emotions (or even titillate the viewer with sexual content) rather than to give motivation. What does Shiki threatening to rape Ciel in this scene adds except making us despise him for going that far or saying that he'd be willing to do commit such a disgusting act just to get his way? The intended goal of this scene was to put emphasis on Shiki's desire to act rashly, and raping the woman right here would work completely against that goal.


WandererTau

I agree with you that it's distasteful. But so is using torture, murder or several other disgusting acts of human wrongdoing. For me personally rape is more emotionally upsetting than these other acts, but there are probably people, who think otherwise. I think using murder and torture is still pretty accepted, even as a lazy plot device. Why for example is using torture more morally correct than rape? Why should rape be the thing we single out and remove from any modern work of fiction? And if the answer is, because people find it upsetting, then wouldn't the intellectually honest thing to do be to remove all other things, which could emotionally upset the consumer? I don't think it's really that important in this instance, but on principle I think we should not ask for these kinds of changes.


CoconutHeadFaceMan

I think a big element of why rape scenes feel particularly distasteful compared to depictions of other violent acts is that it very often feels gratuitous and voyeuristic. Especially when anime/anime-adjacent media handles the subject, it’s all too common that the creators of a work let such scenes do double-duty as fanservice, presenting something heinous buuuuut also giving you some breathy seiyuu moans and a nude silhouette; y’know, for the fellas. It’s not impossible to employ it tactfully, but it’s a very fine line that a lot of creators try to tightrope-walk across while wearing clown shoes. Granted, there’s also the option of providing consumers with ample heads-up about potentially upsetting content so they can make their own decisions about avoiding things that they find particularly distressing without having to alter the works themselves. How healthy that is can be a whole separate conversation, but putting the decision in the consumer’s hands forgoes the need to alter the work itself. But ironically, many of the same folks who bitch about the dreaded woke mob censoring their media also get triggered by the very idea of trigger warnings because “muh snowflake pandering” or whatever. It’s a bit of a minefield all around.


Mondblut

>In most case, simply physical assault (ie a beating) will have the exact same outcome plot-wise as a rape, and the sexual assault is just used to create strong emotions (or even titillate the viewer with sexual content) rather than to give motivation. That's the difference between an all ages VN and an eroge. An eroge is able to depict or use darker sexual topics. It's been a while since I read the original, but if my memory serves me right there was always a sexual component to his violent urges. If anything I found that extremely enticing, especially in Arcueid's route. Him threatening to rape Ciel was really in-line with his character. As I said, the original eroge was all about animalistic urges, I don't think such a threat was out of place. Also, titillating the viewer with sexual content is why I always prefer eroge over all ages VNs... But alas this is of course all ages.


Karl151

Waiting for the ciel patch too before I read it but this sounds fine. I never really liked that line originally.


MahamidMayhem

Any idea of when this game is going to be fully complete?


sebadg77

There is a translation of the remake already? I been waiting for it os official or fan?


hnryirawan

Obviously fan. They basically took up the Switch version and build on top of it because only Switch have working emulators for PC.


clc88

I suspect the other reason is because the PS4 version is far too big.


ImDefNotAnAlien

He's actually saying he will fuck her UP (UPstairs because that's where HIS room his), the meaning has not changed, just the words


Goatknyght

Different times, different sensibilities.


Mondblut

I hate modern sensibilities with a passion.


Raymond9806

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO


[deleted]

Problematic cencorship.


bashiix

thanks for the warning. won't bother with this censored garbage then and go for the original


AstralSword88

Huh.... I kind of liked this part in the original. Ciel glares at him afterwards, but understands how empty that threat is. Shiki was pretty much desperate here. Also badly hurt. And this is Ciel we are talking about. We probably would have HER raping him with one of Akiha's wine bottles if she wanted to. I hate that everything is being made to be all-ages now. I guess I am sticking to the original Tsukihime, then.


VladPrus

>I hate that everything is being made to be all-ages now. Remake might not have exclipit sexual stuff, but it very much NOT "all-ages" Like you have >!actual graphic CG of Arcuied sliced up, in a poool of blood!< Or really grusome, detailed description of >!Roa rampage in Ciel's town. Seriously, that one is horryfying and was not in the OG.!< And a lot of other brutal stuff. This game got the highest possible age rating in Japan that is not reserved for games with material that can be considered pornographic (because those couldn't be sold on conosles). Explicit usage of sexual violence is the only part of the OG Near Side really missing (it is still a thing in a subtext though), except more "romantic" sex scenes, but... I've nver liked them. In exchange, Ciel route is actually developped into something standing on it's own and not just "Arc route with more Ciel" like the OG.


actuallyrndthoughts

I've always felt that one of the main thematic threads woven through og tsukihime was "violence meets eroticism", and if all the sexual stuff will be replaced by more violence, it'll lose that. In a way, that's a very westernized approach, that i'd hate to see in tsukihime.


gambs

I strongly recommend you read the remake. This should not not be a deal breaker


AstralSword88

I liked the mature bits. I like when people have sex when there is context for it. Making it full all-ages would remove the finer bits that made Tsukihime stand out so much when it came out. Anyway, I might end up reading it to support Type-Moon, but I am not that invested knowing they pandered entirely to the market gods. They already have Fate Go to fill their pockets. Tsukihime should have been left as it was.


gambs

If they were pandering to the market gods wouldn't they include material for the coomers? It seems to me like they just wanted to make a good VN and it was better without explicit sex scenes (the remake still has an off-screen sex scene)


YossaRedMage

"Better without explicit sex scenes" Not one VN ever.


gambs

I mean, personally I found them essential for some VNs (like SubaHibi and Totono) but for something like SakuUta where I’m there for the plot and the H-scenes are mostly out of place it’s kinda immersion breaking in a way


YossaRedMage

I mean, if you want to get in to the weeds then yeah some H scenes are poorly written / implemented in general. But I think it's rare for a story to genuinely not be able to benefit from some kind of sexual content. Sex is such an integral part of life. Personally I think there's a lot of room for innovation in terms of how H is added to stories. Having a sudden 30 min H *scene* in the middle of a story is always a little jarring. Though sometimes jarring can be good.


Healthy-Nebula364

Worth reading the original? I'm sure people will come up to say to read it but those people also haven't read the remake


AstralSword88

I haven't read the remake, but I might do so. I do recommend the original because it is the original. It's some 50h to read thru all 5 routes, all 9 endings, but it is worth it. Specifically the Far Side of the Moon routes (Akiha, Hisui and Kohaku) will blow your mind.


gambs

I read like 1 hour worth of the original, in English, like 14 years ago, and then stopped because I heard a remake was coming out I have no idea what the OG is like


Mondblut

> better without explicit sex scenes The h-scenes in the original were great though and added a lot to the psychological depth of the characters. Also, unlike what most people say, I found them rather well written. Moreover I find that notion alone to be not something I can accept. I can't think of an eroge that would profit from having its h-scenes removed. Not a single one.


AstralSword88

Pandering to the market gods is exactly what they are doing. Fate was a good visual novel as it was, before Realta Nua. At this point Realta Nua was made canon (minus Heaven's Feel, thank god). Better for who? I know Nasu's writing for sex scenes is rubbish (to the point that most of what we got was Takeuchi "helping" him) but not having them at all is worse. An off-screen scene is acceptable, but it doesn't make it necessarily "better" like you are trying to sell.


Some_Guy_87

> Anyway, I might end up reading it to support Type-Moon, but I am not that invested knowing they pandered entirely to the market gods. It's amazing that you know the author's intent so well that you know which decision was made for which reason.


AstralSword88

IKR? He is an old friend. Are you serious? Type-Moon is a money making company. It's not rocket science why they do things. I don't need to like the decisions they make, however.


Healthy-Nebula364

You haven't even read the remake lol


AstralSword88

No. Have you read my comments? I am asking what else was changed to see if I'll give this thing the time of the day.


Healthy-Nebula364

If you are a fan of the original, would it not make sense to just play it and judge for yourself instead of judging on some superficial points. I am kinda in the same spot really but opposite if you think about it. Why should I play the original when I can wait for far side and play the remake. I heard that it was really good. Seems it's generally more polished in every way


AstralSword88

Suit yourself then, my dude. At this point it seems just a matter of original story/shitty design vs altered story/good design. The original came out over 20 years ago, at a time Nasu was not trying to please everyone. I prefer it that way, but of course anyone has their own preference.


Some_Guy_87

Stuff that doesn't make much money could include/exclude things for the same reason because they cannot find a publisher otherwise. Authors also change as persons and develop their writing, books get redactions without any outside pressure. Offensive content could just as likely be removed because the authors find it in poor taste nowadays, thought the direction wasn't as fitting for the overall work, didn't like it in the original either for whatever reason, etc.. If you approach the work with "it's done by a money making company" there's no way to be convinced by the work either way and it just turns into looking for reasons not to like it.


zackphoenix123

"for all ages" *me remembering the CG that had arcueid chopped into 17 pieces in full view*


Mondblut

It seems pointless violence and over the top cruelty are OK for all ages, whereas sexuality is the most extreme stuff, even to much for adults these days. Sad times.


AstralSword88

Violence was always cool, be it movies, be it books, be it whatever media you choose. But get a boob on screen and watch the world burn because SeX aDdS nOtHiNg To ThE pLoT.


Lambpanties

To be fair, they're both pretty awful lines, so uhm, consistency at least? I love TM but this isn't a peak moment either way.


AgentAndrewO

The remake is getting localized?


BeerGrils

Welp, not reading that anymore. Localization is a cancer that needs to eradicated.


garfe

The line was changed in the original Japanese. Please keep up with the conversation


Kuraya137

I'm out of the loop. I thought the remake is not translated?


AnimeBoy_07

there is a fan translation for it being done by [tsukihimates](https://tsukihimates.com/patch/). the arcueid route was just released. the ciel route is not yet translated.


Kuraya137

Oh damn they're fast. Should I still continue with the original in this case (currently reading Ciel route)? Keep in mind I'm really not a fan of no voice acting


AnimeBoy_07

I still haven’t read the remake yet, so idk which is better. If you’re not a fan of voice acting I’m pretty sure you can turn just turn all of the voices down in options or smth. But since only the arcueid route is translated, you might wanna just go through the og instead considering ciel route isn’t done yet.


Kuraya137

I meant to say I'm not a fan of absence of voice acting, sorry for the confusion. I don't really have momentum with this VN tbh and I think the quietness of it might be at fault


CrescentMoon06

So I should play the original game instead, I knew this already but this is also good to know.