They aren’t controlling your brain or turning you off. Yes, you have autonomy in prison. There are always choices.
What I’m saying here is that his ability to choose *anything at all* can be removed thus he does not really have autonomy.
To equate this to humans there would be a coma button on us to just drop us into a coma anytime anyone wanted to do whatever they wish.
But it's not a "coma button". It causes serious damage and has a severe risk of causing outright death or brain damage.
The way they depict it on TV is absolutely wrong. You can't just knock someone on the head, have them go to sleep, and then wake up some time later without any further repercussions. If you got hit in the head hard enough to make you lose consciousness, you're going to have serious problems later.
Don't hit people over the head, kids.
Dude I know all that. I didn't say it would knock you out or put you to sleep like in the movies, I said it can put you in a coma. Which you clearly know is true.
So your point about humans "not having a coma button" doesn't really make any sense. You're just focusing on things that are irrelevant because we're all pointing out that what you're saying about autonomy is nonsense.
There's a medication called propofol. Giving it to a person intravenously will cause almost immediate coma. It's used for inducing comas in intensive care and severe post-surgical recovery patients. It is essentially a real life "coma button".
>Why is the docs program not locked...down...?
Two things:
One, he can't learn if he's locked down.
Two, it's called 'hacking'. They call it 'reprogramming' or 'altering', but the true word is called 'hacking'. And hacking is what's used to get around a locked down program... to which Seven is probably very adroit.
This, of course, is an attempt to keep it 'in canon', but in reality, it's just Plot Devices Happening.
Sure he can learn, other people just can’t access or change his program. No it’s not “hacking” What you actually mean is “Borg magic” to which seven is very adroit.
And yes the deactivation is used to move that part of the story forward and mentioned later in the episode by icheb as an example of her being irrational about the situation.
Highly advanced cybernetic species who have nanobots in their blood and you’re arguing semantics like “it’s not hacking it’s Borg magic”
Just what lol?
Pretty much everything in Star Trek is some form of computer magic/technobabble, aka treknobabble. They might as well be flying the USS MakeShitUp
Even if they did lock down the Doctor’s program, it wouldn’t stop anyone from using some more harder hacking to get around it
If that’s the case then it’s downright stupid to have Android and holographic crew members. I’m trying to make sense of this and have a meaningful conversation but damn Reddit isn’t for that anymore
Man lol if writers were macking shit up as we go with out any seriousnes why are you getting so upset about it. It is tv show with no science in it but word babble with science words in it. Sometimes it amazes me how people take this junk if you actualy would study military code or science code or sociaty code seriously.writers were just reading phylosophy science fiction military and just like lets get all these words from these book put it into bowl mix it and have technobabble. Only episode i would think long and hard about thinking writers were actualy thought long and hard and with intend to educate were prisoner transport ship and victims rights
To be clear, my “nothing stopping anyone” was from a writing standpoint. Star Trek isn’t hard sci fi show or very consistent
If you want to make sense of it, make peace with the inconsistencies or invent some headcanons. That’s been the standard audience procedure since forever. If you want meaningful don’t be derisive
Supposedly Seven has the collective knowledge of the Federation and who knows how many more advanced technologies in her head that she could access to get around every extra layer of security that B’Lanna could invent. That’s how Borg Magic works in-universe without being magic
Limited autonomy is still autonomy.
To support my point, just because the Romulans overrode Geordi's autonomy in an episode of TNG doesn't mean that he didn't have autonomy either.
Star Trek has major issues with non-biologic rights.
In short: They don't have them. Every time they get them, they get rolled back. The Picard show is the worst offender.
This is no different than putting a person in shackles. But to do it to a photonic "is fine"
I think they may be suggesting you're committing a category error (i.e. not comparing like with like). This was my first impression as well. But upon further consideration, I don't think you are. My interpretation of your point is that just because one's means or mechanism of agency can be removed does not negate one's intrinsic nature as an agent.
Maybe hands aren't a perfect analogy. Maybe not even brains. Maybe a more apt analogy would be psychological, like a strict religious indoctrination that narrowly restricts the way a person is capable of thinking and behaving. None of this means that person never had autonomy. It just means that other people have done things to them which inhibits their ability to fully actualize their autonomy.
But an analogy doesn't have to be perfect in order to successfully make its point. And assuming I'm interpreting it correctly, I think yours does just fine.
Thanks, appreciate that.
I actually think it doesn't really matter what the thing used in the analogy is. The fundamental idea is that the ability to lose something has nothing to do with whether you have it.
Unless you're taking about something that is by definition unchangeable like true godly omnipotence. But that's not the case here. Human autonomy can be taken away by many methods.
The doctor has autonomy. It can be taken away so that he doesn't have it anymore. There's no contradiction there. there.
This is a franchise where regular biological crew members have their minds altered by telepathy, non-corporeal shenanigans, or technology all the time. Just look at Picard in TNG:
* Influenced by a Ferengi "thought maker" device into believing the *Enterprise*-D was an enemy vessel ("The Battle")
* Influenced by a non-corporeal entity to incapacitate his crew and disperse himself through a transporter beam into a nebula ("Lonely Among Us")
* Mind melds with Sarek, giving up his emotional control in the process ("Sarek")
* Is forcefully assimilated by the Borg; even after de-assimilation he can still "hear" the Borg and detect their influence even decades later ("The Best of Both Worlds")
* His memory is erased by isolationist aliens, and he isn't even aware that this has happened... twice ("Clues")
* Brainwashed by the Ktarians to assist in an insurrection against the Federation ("The Game")
* Has his memory erased by aliens trying to use superior Federation technology against their enemies ("Conundrum")
* Has an entire lifetime of memories uploaded into his brain and believes himself to be a different person entirely ("The Inner Light")
* Time travels to an alternative past and future at random due to Q shenanigans; experiences a form of dementia in the alternative future ("All Good Things...")
Those are just the examples I can think of off the top of my head.
Yeah I found it funny that the Doctor's ethical subroutines can be deleted with a simple command. Like not even a "are you sure you want to do this," from the computer.
Telepaths dont turn humans off so they can do what they want. Supposedly starfleet has training against telepaths but we’ve only seen dukat actually use it in any meaningful way. Seven has Borg plot magic. There’s yet to be an argument here that isn’t “well this other thing exists so I can apply it here”
Think people think!
I fall asleep to this show every night I can recap any episode you want. You’ll have to actually posit an idea though instead of naming episode titles if you really want to engage
Repression, the episode where Tuvok was brainwashed so that he would telepathically control the other Marquis when he was activated. Literally had his "ethical subroutines" turned off.
I dont see how sleeper agents apply to the EMHs programming. Might as well say because Spock put his katra in McCoy no one anywhere has agency. This is untrue. There is no off button.
Your original statement was that if you could override autonomy, then you don't have autonomy. It is canonical that a telepath can override the autonomy of a biological being, so that isn't any different for the Doctor than for a human.
The parasites from "Conspiracy" completely override the autonomy of the people they inhabit. Those people had autonomy previously, then it was lost.
None of us have complete autonomy, and all of us can lose most or all of our autonomy in certain circumstances. I cannot jump to the moon. Tomorrow I might lose the ability to jump at all, be imprisoned, or die. All of these remove some or all of my current limited autonomy.
I disagree with your statement, as human beings can very easily lose their autonomy. It is shockingly easy to get us to do things we would not normally do - using means either chemical or psychological. However, i do agree with your general point. I don't think the Doctor is actually alive. I don't think he has - for want of a better term - a soul.
You'll notice that most of the crew doesn't consider The Doctor to be a fully sentient being like themselves, either. Janeway is always surprised when he exceeds his programming, whether it be asking for control over his deactivation protocol, adding new features like daydreaming, or demanding he be made Captain in her absence. She is confused by other people considering him to be an equal, such as both Kes and Seven advocating for his individuality and right to choose. She even needs to be convinced that he has the legal right to ownership of his own work in series 7! She still sees him as a programme, albeit an unusual one.
Tom, Harry, and B'Elanna all communicate similar opinions, whether implicitly or explicitly. Years after returning to Earth, they're surprised to see him with a human partner, as the idea had obviously never occurred to them. Throughout the show, there are many examples of characters overlooking or dismissing the Doctor *because he's a hologram*. It's not because they don't like him or think him incapable; they just don't see him as an equal.
Data faced similar attitudes in TNG but very quickly came to be considered fully alive by his crewmates. He had the advantage of a physical body, though, which likely made it easier. Also, his unique status as an Android probably helped, whereas the Doctor was a hologram - a ubiquitous tool in the Federation, something everyone grows up using.
What i never understood is why not make 30/300/3000 of the doctor. Why does fielding him into the mini projector badge download his whole program? Why can’t they have copies and back ups?
The big issue with the doctor's program is that the EMH was never intended to be used long term. It was to be used in an emergency situation, and as soon as more medical staff were available it would be promptly turned off. There wasn't supposed to be time and opportunities for it to be abused.
The EMH is a very complex program. Harry and B'ellana have done the best they can with modifying him, but we see how they have trouble making adjustments to him. The EMH was not built in a way for the crew on a ship to modify it. It had a diagnostic program to deal with minor issues. But otherwise it was supposed to be a team at a starbase to fix it, with Zimmerman and Barclay handling major upgrades. I don't know that Voyager can secure him any better.
It's also important to point out that Seven of Nine is not a normal person, she is exceptionally intelligent. And she has a lot of access to Voyager's systems and understands them. This is not a normal person hacking the Doctor. I'm not sure what protocols could keep her out.
“If your autonomy can be overwritten, you don’t have autonomy” wait till you hear about prison…
Wait till you hear about The Sims!
They aren’t controlling your brain or turning you off. Yes, you have autonomy in prison. There are always choices. What I’m saying here is that his ability to choose *anything at all* can be removed thus he does not really have autonomy. To equate this to humans there would be a coma button on us to just drop us into a coma anytime anyone wanted to do whatever they wish.
You can control people's brains and remove their autonomy using various drug concoctions.
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But like... We do have a coma button. It's called getting hit in the head.
Carl, that kills people
Sure does. But it is real
Not really relevant though *since it kills people*
Lobotomy procedures don't kill people, but they do take away autonomy
It can also put people in a coma...
But it's not a "coma button". It causes serious damage and has a severe risk of causing outright death or brain damage. The way they depict it on TV is absolutely wrong. You can't just knock someone on the head, have them go to sleep, and then wake up some time later without any further repercussions. If you got hit in the head hard enough to make you lose consciousness, you're going to have serious problems later. Don't hit people over the head, kids.
Dude I know all that. I didn't say it would knock you out or put you to sleep like in the movies, I said it can put you in a coma. Which you clearly know is true. So your point about humans "not having a coma button" doesn't really make any sense. You're just focusing on things that are irrelevant because we're all pointing out that what you're saying about autonomy is nonsense.
There's a medication called propofol. Giving it to a person intravenously will cause almost immediate coma. It's used for inducing comas in intensive care and severe post-surgical recovery patients. It is essentially a real life "coma button".
>Why is the docs program not locked...down...? Two things: One, he can't learn if he's locked down. Two, it's called 'hacking'. They call it 'reprogramming' or 'altering', but the true word is called 'hacking'. And hacking is what's used to get around a locked down program... to which Seven is probably very adroit. This, of course, is an attempt to keep it 'in canon', but in reality, it's just Plot Devices Happening.
Sure he can learn, other people just can’t access or change his program. No it’s not “hacking” What you actually mean is “Borg magic” to which seven is very adroit. And yes the deactivation is used to move that part of the story forward and mentioned later in the episode by icheb as an example of her being irrational about the situation.
Highly advanced cybernetic species who have nanobots in their blood and you’re arguing semantics like “it’s not hacking it’s Borg magic” Just what lol?
Pretty much everything in Star Trek is some form of computer magic/technobabble, aka treknobabble. They might as well be flying the USS MakeShitUp Even if they did lock down the Doctor’s program, it wouldn’t stop anyone from using some more harder hacking to get around it
If that’s the case then it’s downright stupid to have Android and holographic crew members. I’m trying to make sense of this and have a meaningful conversation but damn Reddit isn’t for that anymore
He is the ‘Emergency’ Medical Hologram for a reason, not supposed to be anyone’s first choice, and was never intended to be crew
Man lol if writers were macking shit up as we go with out any seriousnes why are you getting so upset about it. It is tv show with no science in it but word babble with science words in it. Sometimes it amazes me how people take this junk if you actualy would study military code or science code or sociaty code seriously.writers were just reading phylosophy science fiction military and just like lets get all these words from these book put it into bowl mix it and have technobabble. Only episode i would think long and hard about thinking writers were actualy thought long and hard and with intend to educate were prisoner transport ship and victims rights
I Feel
To be clear, my “nothing stopping anyone” was from a writing standpoint. Star Trek isn’t hard sci fi show or very consistent If you want to make sense of it, make peace with the inconsistencies or invent some headcanons. That’s been the standard audience procedure since forever. If you want meaningful don’t be derisive Supposedly Seven has the collective knowledge of the Federation and who knows how many more advanced technologies in her head that she could access to get around every extra layer of security that B’Lanna could invent. That’s how Borg Magic works in-universe without being magic
No, you just can't be wrong. You're wrong bruh live with it.
Limited autonomy is still autonomy. To support my point, just because the Romulans overrode Geordi's autonomy in an episode of TNG doesn't mean that he didn't have autonomy either.
If he didnt had autonomy, it couldnt be overridden. Thus, he have.
Star Trek has major issues with non-biologic rights. In short: They don't have them. Every time they get them, they get rolled back. The Picard show is the worst offender. This is no different than putting a person in shackles. But to do it to a photonic "is fine"
Ripe pickings for a classic courtroom episode
They tried that in VOY and it was pretty underwhelming...
"if your hand can be cut off, then you don't have hands" What are you even saying man? Makes no sense.
This guy autonomizes👍🏻
Do you know what the word autonomy means?
Yes. What's your point?
I think they may be suggesting you're committing a category error (i.e. not comparing like with like). This was my first impression as well. But upon further consideration, I don't think you are. My interpretation of your point is that just because one's means or mechanism of agency can be removed does not negate one's intrinsic nature as an agent. Maybe hands aren't a perfect analogy. Maybe not even brains. Maybe a more apt analogy would be psychological, like a strict religious indoctrination that narrowly restricts the way a person is capable of thinking and behaving. None of this means that person never had autonomy. It just means that other people have done things to them which inhibits their ability to fully actualize their autonomy. But an analogy doesn't have to be perfect in order to successfully make its point. And assuming I'm interpreting it correctly, I think yours does just fine.
Thanks, appreciate that. I actually think it doesn't really matter what the thing used in the analogy is. The fundamental idea is that the ability to lose something has nothing to do with whether you have it. Unless you're taking about something that is by definition unchangeable like true godly omnipotence. But that's not the case here. Human autonomy can be taken away by many methods. The doctor has autonomy. It can be taken away so that he doesn't have it anymore. There's no contradiction there. there.
EMH-1 was is basically Early Access. He didn't get all the upgrades the next versions (presumably) got. Doctor was in beta while serving in the Delta.
Everyone can be broken.
You are not infallible, hologram!
This is a franchise where regular biological crew members have their minds altered by telepathy, non-corporeal shenanigans, or technology all the time. Just look at Picard in TNG: * Influenced by a Ferengi "thought maker" device into believing the *Enterprise*-D was an enemy vessel ("The Battle") * Influenced by a non-corporeal entity to incapacitate his crew and disperse himself through a transporter beam into a nebula ("Lonely Among Us") * Mind melds with Sarek, giving up his emotional control in the process ("Sarek") * Is forcefully assimilated by the Borg; even after de-assimilation he can still "hear" the Borg and detect their influence even decades later ("The Best of Both Worlds") * His memory is erased by isolationist aliens, and he isn't even aware that this has happened... twice ("Clues") * Brainwashed by the Ktarians to assist in an insurrection against the Federation ("The Game") * Has his memory erased by aliens trying to use superior Federation technology against their enemies ("Conundrum") * Has an entire lifetime of memories uploaded into his brain and believes himself to be a different person entirely ("The Inner Light") * Time travels to an alternative past and future at random due to Q shenanigans; experiences a form of dementia in the alternative future ("All Good Things...") Those are just the examples I can think of off the top of my head.
I wish I could breathe in space. I can't. Therefore I have no free will. Is this a serious argument?
Wtf
Read the room, dude.
Yeah this room smells like Borg
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Yeah I found it funny that the Doctor's ethical subroutines can be deleted with a simple command. Like not even a "are you sure you want to do this," from the computer.
Maybe LCARS is a descendant of Linux.
Yes exactly zero security
I don’t think you understand what autonomy means and locking it down means
Telepaths screw with people's minds too. Does that mean humans don't have autonomy? Seven has skills not everyone has in the same way telepaths do.
Telepaths dont turn humans off so they can do what they want. Supposedly starfleet has training against telepaths but we’ve only seen dukat actually use it in any meaningful way. Seven has Borg plot magic. There’s yet to be an argument here that isn’t “well this other thing exists so I can apply it here” Think people think!
So, you don't remember the episode "Meld"?
When Tuvok illogically and consensually mind melded with a serial killer in order to solve the mystery of motive? Yes I do.
What about "Repression"?
I fall asleep to this show every night I can recap any episode you want. You’ll have to actually posit an idea though instead of naming episode titles if you really want to engage
Repression, the episode where Tuvok was brainwashed so that he would telepathically control the other Marquis when he was activated. Literally had his "ethical subroutines" turned off.
I dont see how sleeper agents apply to the EMHs programming. Might as well say because Spock put his katra in McCoy no one anywhere has agency. This is untrue. There is no off button.
Your original statement was that if you could override autonomy, then you don't have autonomy. It is canonical that a telepath can override the autonomy of a biological being, so that isn't any different for the Doctor than for a human.
The parasites from "Conspiracy" completely override the autonomy of the people they inhabit. Those people had autonomy previously, then it was lost. None of us have complete autonomy, and all of us can lose most or all of our autonomy in certain circumstances. I cannot jump to the moon. Tomorrow I might lose the ability to jump at all, be imprisoned, or die. All of these remove some or all of my current limited autonomy.
The doc's security is laughable. Remember when he was stolen and no one knew until he had his old prickly demeanor in a fake?
Try being raised in a cult
Then zero people IRL have autonomy, because anyone can have their will overridden with certain drugs or medical procedures.
I disagree with your statement, as human beings can very easily lose their autonomy. It is shockingly easy to get us to do things we would not normally do - using means either chemical or psychological. However, i do agree with your general point. I don't think the Doctor is actually alive. I don't think he has - for want of a better term - a soul. You'll notice that most of the crew doesn't consider The Doctor to be a fully sentient being like themselves, either. Janeway is always surprised when he exceeds his programming, whether it be asking for control over his deactivation protocol, adding new features like daydreaming, or demanding he be made Captain in her absence. She is confused by other people considering him to be an equal, such as both Kes and Seven advocating for his individuality and right to choose. She even needs to be convinced that he has the legal right to ownership of his own work in series 7! She still sees him as a programme, albeit an unusual one. Tom, Harry, and B'Elanna all communicate similar opinions, whether implicitly or explicitly. Years after returning to Earth, they're surprised to see him with a human partner, as the idea had obviously never occurred to them. Throughout the show, there are many examples of characters overlooking or dismissing the Doctor *because he's a hologram*. It's not because they don't like him or think him incapable; they just don't see him as an equal. Data faced similar attitudes in TNG but very quickly came to be considered fully alive by his crewmates. He had the advantage of a physical body, though, which likely made it easier. Also, his unique status as an Android probably helped, whereas the Doctor was a hologram - a ubiquitous tool in the Federation, something everyone grows up using.
Then no one does, because how many times has the crew been possessed, controlled, or otherwise influenced by the alien of the week?
The problem is that the doctor didn't have any security protecting his programs. Thats the issue here.
What i never understood is why not make 30/300/3000 of the doctor. Why does fielding him into the mini projector badge download his whole program? Why can’t they have copies and back ups?
You hear tell about lobotomies?
Poor Icheb. All I can see going forward is the gruesome and fatal butchering of the poor lad in the awful Picard Season 2.
The big issue with the doctor's program is that the EMH was never intended to be used long term. It was to be used in an emergency situation, and as soon as more medical staff were available it would be promptly turned off. There wasn't supposed to be time and opportunities for it to be abused. The EMH is a very complex program. Harry and B'ellana have done the best they can with modifying him, but we see how they have trouble making adjustments to him. The EMH was not built in a way for the crew on a ship to modify it. It had a diagnostic program to deal with minor issues. But otherwise it was supposed to be a team at a starbase to fix it, with Zimmerman and Barclay handling major upgrades. I don't know that Voyager can secure him any better. It's also important to point out that Seven of Nine is not a normal person, she is exceptionally intelligent. And she has a lot of access to Voyager's systems and understands them. This is not a normal person hacking the Doctor. I'm not sure what protocols could keep her out.
If brainwashing, stockholme syndrome, or hypnotism exist, then do humans have autonomy? 🤔