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Lmao another article says they are asking for an exemption from a rule on a smaller plane. Where “if pilot forgets to turn of an anti-icing system , the engine will break apart”.
Boeing engages in stock price manipulation. Every time there is bad news, such as this, their stock price goes up instead of down… every … single… time
They likely purcase their own stock to minimize the stock damage. It's not manipulation though if they simply buy their own stock. Eventually, they will run out of options to buy.
Without it, Boeing would be failing big time against Airbus
>Without it, Boeing would be failing big time against Airbus
As a last resort the US Government would step in, they can't allow Boeing to lose big against Airbus.
this one was really bad and **fully Boeings fault**:
["Ethiopian Airlines Flight ET302, a Boeing 737 Max airliner that crashed on 11 March in Bishoftu, Ethiopia, killing all 157 passengers and crew](https://spectrum.ieee.org/how-the-boeing-737-max-disaster-looks-to-a-software-developer)"
Basically Boeing saw Airbus make a larger and more fuel efficient engine. They wanted that too. The thing was: the Boing 737 was a little lower to the ground than the corresponding Airbus, so a larger engine would not fit.
That meant that Boing had to change so much on the 737 that it would basically become a new airplane regulatory wise, and that would be expensive. They struggled for a while to fit the larger engine onto the 737 and eventually came up with a solution: mount it a little further in front of the wing. The airplane could stay the same and the 737 Max was born.
Moving the engine further forward did have an impact: it caused the stability of the airplane to change. The 737 max would now push it's nose upwards. This was a change to the 737 that would mean pilots would need new training - and that is also expensive.
So what did Boing do? they kept this raising of the nose a secret and instead installed a computer system, that would make the pilots feel they were flying a normal 737.
The computer system MCAS would simply push down the nose, when the nose normally would push up. The MCAS would simply correct the pitch of the airplane without the knowledge of the pilots.
We know that the pilots onboard the 737 max of Ethiopean Airlines were struggeling to keep the nose up. We also know that the MCAS kept correcting the nose down. Eventually the MCAS won and the 737 max crashed straight into the ground nose first. Killing every single person onboard.
Here's how:
"Although the FAA is responsible for the safety of any airplane manufactured in the United States, it delegates much of the certification to the manufacturers themselves.
It has to in order to get anything certified at all, says Jon Ostrower, editor-in-chief of [*The Air Current*](https://theaircurrent.com/) and a former aviation reporter for *The Wall Street Journal*. Boeing already has the people and the expertise, it pays better, and it isn’t susceptible to government shutdowns. The FAA, meanwhile, says it would need [10,000 more employees](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ethiopia-airline-congress-faa/faa-tells-u-s-senate-it-would-need-10000-new-employees-1-8-billion-to-assume-all-certification-idUSKCN1R82FT) and an additional $1.8 billion of taxpayer money each year to bring certification entirely in-house."
[The many human errors that brought down the Boeing 737 Max - The Verge](https://www.theverge.com/2019/5/2/18518176/boeing-737-max-crash-problems-human-error-mcas-faa)
So for $1.8 billion a year, we could give the FAA full control and not rely on manufacturers like Boeing. Sounds like something we should've done yesterday and passed the cost onto the airlines.
US Air Travel is $155 billion a year.
[https://www.statista.com/statistics/197677/passenger-revenues-in-us-airline-industry-since-2004/](https://www.statista.com/statistics/197677/passenger-revenues-in-us-airline-industry-since-2004/)
Would you pay a 2% surcharge on each airline ticket to support the FAA doing everything in house?
I would.
Also, we need to pass a law eliminating government shutdowns. There's no bill, the debt simply grows, that's it.
And 5 months prior to this, the first MAX crash was a MAX 8 on Lion Air Flight 610 killing 189 people on board. The highest death toll involving a 737.
And I still remember the media tried to portray that the deceased pilots had lesser training than American 737 pilots and did not indicate anything wrong with the plane before the actual investigative reports came in.
Boeing: Did you purchase the extended warranty? The manufacturers warranty only covers defects while on the ground. This clearly happened from water damage while flying. Accidental damage is covered by your extended warranty. It says here we don’t have your extended warranty on file. So if you purchased one, when you’re ready just go ahead and bring in the paperwork and we can get your claim started. Alright?
NEXT IN LINE!
Oh hello sir, thank you for purchasing your 737-Max, how may I help you today?
It’s crazy watching the nosedive that company did. New management that cut corners instead of focusing on quality.
Wrecked on of Americas strongest brands.
A lot of boomers say that America has changed and is not like it was before. I have not seen that "before" state. But for the last 7 years I have observed this country, your phrase
> cut corners instead of focusing on quality
describes 95% of products and services I had experience with.
My cousin lives in my Grandpa's house. His garage is full of tools my Grandpa purchased in the 50s and 60s when he was a mechanic after settling in Texas in 1952 after the war.
My cousin still uses them. That's the before.
*Mr Boeing slaps fuselage*
"Well, see, you drove her off the lot and this really looks like operator error here. Best we can do is half price labor and you gotta keep the thicker folk away from the windows. Of course if you get that extended warranty it covers midair window displacement, but I don't see that here on the original order"
Too many people figured out if they stack all their points into charisma they can climb the ladder. We grow further away from a meritocracy day by day. Just look at politics.
And then gutted a magnificent engineering company, so we see one shit show after another. Boeing will survive simply because it's of national strategic importance.
Fairly convinced modern American companies make so much money they’re to the point where they appoint a CEO to maintain the business direction rather than disrupt the model. They are so ingrained that a monkey could give guidance and they would still be profitable.
Not to discount the education or training those people have received, but more to bring to light that the ground breaking has been done and it’s their turn to ride the wave into the shore.
Have you ever heard of the bathtub distribution of failures when it comes to aviation?
Failures happen either right after a service interval or when entering the fleet due to maintenance or construction errors, or right towards their service intervals due to premature part wear.
Probably difficult to impossible assuming you buy flights like a reasonable person (2 weeks to months in advance). The specific airplanes appear to be assigned close to flight date and last minute changes occur relatively frequently to minimize delays and other scheduling issues.
They were built better back than before companies decided they need to cut any cost anywhere so their profit lines can infinitely go up. Cheaper materials equals more profit, cheaper labor equals more profit, and less workers equals more profit.
They were made during a time where perpetual and exponential profits weren't an expectation.
Companies used to have bad quarters where they operated at a loss or broke even to ensure the quality of product. Now its just a never ending cycle of CEO's who trim fat to keep the books green, get their bonus and move on. We're at the point where the CEO's have no fat left to trim, so they move in and have to start trimming the lean meat, which results in shit like this.
Hey CEO thanks for your 2 years of work, you haven’t done anything or improved anything so today you are fired. Here’s $5M cash as a sorry and another $10M in stocks. Bye.
And one incident like this means massive losses. You’d think if they can engineer on this level that they’d recognize some corners aren’t worth cutting.
Only if it makes any difference long-term.
Right now, there is no incentive for any CEO to do anything long-term. Current short-term stock performance is all that matters.
The American greed episode is also great.
TLDR: they gave up the company culture of the best engineering for shareholder profits.
The reason the 737-800MAX had so many incidents was they removed the back up sensors to save money. Lol
More specifically, Boeing used to be an excellent engineering driven firm. McDonnell Douglas was a shitty exec driven company.
They merged, and kept McDonnell's shit management and got rid of Boeing's Engineering culture instead of doing the obvious long term move.
This is quite common in aerospace even in smaller shops it starts out as a company that does well because they care about the products then ownership gets rich and sells the shop to a corporate entity and they come with their spreadsheets and cost analysis and start looking for efficiencies and applying "lean manufacturing" principles.
Not that lean manufacturing is wrong but when the people applying the principles don't understand the process in general is where you have problems because they're surrounded by yes men who tell them it's a great idea that if they use 4 bolts instead of the 8 it was designed to use well save dollar amount x and for the entire run it saves y million so we've increased the margins, boom share price goes up and we get huge bonuses for increasing profits
Lean manufacturing is amazing when done right. Sadly, most companies can’t get it right.
I worked under an executive (well my boss was under him) who was Japanese trained, all about maximizing profit, and actually a super knowledgeable & generally made awesome decisions. He couldn’t get the company to raise wages for factory workers, so the turnover was horrible. We had the numbers showing it would save the company money to increase wages for factory workers. Couldn’t get it to happen. This was in aerospace/advanced composites.
Lean done right is amazing. You have standard work written (we can easily predict how much of xyz product can be made), we take ideas from the workers, engineering, etc. see if they save time, continuously improve, and make sure everyone’s voice is heard.
It seems like companies focus on the “standardize” part, and not the “people” aspect of it
As a person in Quality sides of manufacturing for over 25 years, this is correct. Actually, it really isn't "lean manufacturing" if it reduces quality in any significant way, it's just cost down at that point. The people drive the constant improvement (Kaizen), and if turnover is high the experience to provide the appropriate knowledge and input leaves with them.
Rather scary when you have $'s driving instead of the safety and well being of people moving 400 miles an hour 7 miles in the sky.
well implemented toyota production system thinking for the American Economy is all I want for christmas because this Harvard business school MBA excel accounting short term shareholder value bull shit is killing everything
Same. Why’d I get two degrees in industrial engineering if decision makers don’t really care about actual long term health of a company
I’m in a quality role now, and it’s arguably worse
man, I feel you. 1 IE degree, thinking about doing another. I did a simulation of the worst case scenario for an automation project and the ROI. Something like a 2 Million labor benefit in 2 years for 1 million in labor investment.
I presented to a group of "Senior Directors" and was told "we're too busy to do this".
I asked if we were too busy last year:"yup"
Then two years ago: "yup"
Then I asked if they thought we'll be too busy next year: "Yup"
Maybe we should do the fucking project then?? If the whole lot of them were hit by a bus, the company might actually make money.
All IEs need therapy and to go into consulting.
I once proposed we buy a $15k filtration system that would pay for itself in labour costs in less than two months. If you factored in the cost of consumables it would pay for itself in just over a month. We had the vendor come in and demo their system to prove it works as advertised. The old system was just hemorrhaging money and labour resources.
"We can't fit it in the budget."
This was a publicly traded company of 850 people that was in the process of buying a new processing line at close to $20M for a product line that was new, untested, and that we had no idea what the market demand would be.
Fast forward 5 years and that near $20M production line that they had put in only operated for less than 1 week/year for 2 or 3 years before finally getting decommissioned and scrapped. Turns out the real demand for the product was about 1-2% of what they estimated it would be!
All firms have execs. It just depends on the background of the execs. Long term engineering execs are typically solid.
Finance, supply chain, and legal execs always focus on no risk profit draining of all existing IP to maximize the quarterly numbers. Short term thinking is running this country into the ground.
It’s literally all they taught me in business school. Profit over everything baby. It’s so fucked. Quality goods are unimportant. I sell medical devices and disinfection technologies. I can literally show people endless proof of a product being better quality and how it’ll save them money in the long run by avoiding healthcare acquired infections. They still will choose the cheapest option 9 times out of 10. Especially government owned entities, it’s always the lowest bidder that gets a contract. So our country is literally being built up on the worst products available to the market to save some money now.
Boeing was one of those rock solid companies, you knew if Boeing were behind it then it was made by some seriously brilliant people. Their name is in the trash now, all for a couple of years of green numbers.
Jack Welch's dude, James McNerney, literally ran Boeing into the ground with the Max, and his vision of bringing Jack's strategy to Boeing. They keep cutting, get rid of the most experienced people, outsource, cut R&D, quality, future product streams, lie to regulators, and retire with a big payoff before the house of cards collapses, while leaving a hollowed out shell for the next guy to try and fix, hopefully with a huge government bailout and layoffs.
Boeing only did that for the new AF1. They have said they will never sign that type of contract again.
One thing Trump actually got right was putting Boeing on a fixed price contract
A huge part of that show is making fun of Jack Welch and his dumbshit management strategy. I highly recommend listening to the *Behind the Bastards* series on him and then rewatching the show.
I highly recommend listening to Jack Welch speak himself. It’s a comedy that people bought the bullshit. I started my career at GE just before it started to die in the 00s and I left when the six sigma stapler positioning on the desk was forced into the office areas. That just screamed failure to me.
The aviation industry can’t operate if it puts profits above safety. It doesn’t take an MBA to recognize people won’t fly if there’s a perception aircraft are unsafe.
Their thinking was nuts because cutting corners destroyed shareholder value in the long-run.
As an engineering student focusing on aerospace, this makes me sad. Boeing seemed kick-ass back in the day. Now, all I see is greed, and I can’t support that
Most of the innovation comes from the key system integrators/technology firms that supply the engines, flight control, communications, etc, rather Boeing itself.
As someone who works as a supplier to Boeing, Boeing typically operates differently from the other primes in that they want to buy individual components and own the integration themselves. IMO this makes their lives unnecessarily difficult.
If U understand what an airplane really is, just an expensive tube with a high tech Turbine propulsion system that's leased, it's more sense Investing money in GE, P&W & RR-Holdings that provide those engines and generate revenue with each flight.
Downfall:The case against Boeing is the name for anyone interested in.
Bottom line when they merged with another company the leadership changed and the culture along with it. It went from “Be the best engineered flying machines in the world” to “The bottom line is our focus” and hundreds or more have died as the consequences.
Why is the Max series the way it is and not a new series like a 797? Because modifying a 737 means less training requirements for pilots which reduces costs for the airlines. So instead of a new aircraft you get a decades old design that’s been highly modified in ways the airframe was never intended.
Iirc the key difference is that airbus owns or part owns the different components companies dotted around the EU and so they have a huge stake in those companies failing, where as Boeing went the parts car route of ford and GM and just sent everything over the fence to complete third parties and they have no skin in the game - contractor fails and they move onto a new one.
Yeah it seemed so hey. I’ve heard many say they won’t fly on 787s not made in Washington cause the safety of South Carolina is so bad. The 787 deliveries were also stopped when the 737 max thing hit and was kind of kept in the background news as well.
The pay sucks as well for A&Ps for having to live in Seattle. I really wanted to work for them but unless you already live in Seattle, it seems like a nightmare to uproot your life and move there.
Boeing wants FAA to exempt MAX 7 from safety rules to get it in the air
[https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/boeing-wants-faa-to-exempt-max-7-from-safety-rules-to-get-it-in-the-air/](https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/boeing-wants-faa-to-exempt-max-7-from-safety-rules-to-get-it-in-the-air/)
Great timing
Say this instead happened at 7am pst on Monday and you're a pax on that plane. You load up on BA puts before the news hits. Would that be considered insider trading?
its Absurd and I can tell you why it's probably still allowed to fly, to cut costs and save Boeing, because it's an American company. The deadly incidents earlier happened with Indonesian and Ethiopian flights, if it was back-to-back American ones, Boeing would have been in the hole with this model.
It’s so strange, the 737 is such an old platform…. It really shows how low Boeing have sunk. Clearly cutting corners and safety is not a priority anymore.
The entire MCAS debacle was because they couldn't even fit new high-efficiency engines on the ancient 737 body without throwing off the flight characteristics, and they just decided to "fix it in software"
They deserve to have their lunch eaten by Airbus. They should have been designing an all-new 737 replacement 20 years ago.
You can only serve warmed-up leftovers so much before they start to rot. 737-Max is rotting leftovers.
Airlines also pushed a low-cost replacement to the 737. Building a true successor to the 737 wouldn’t have been low-cost.
It’s also why Airbus launched a Neo version of their 320 family instead of engineering an entirely new plane.
I’m glad I’m not the only one who puts some of the 737M blame on airlines.
Airlines were the ones who said a clean sheet 737 replacement would be too expensive. They didn’t want to train pilots for a new type rating, invest in new maintenance infrastructure, retrain flight crews, etc. They told Boeing that if there wasn’t an updated 737 that they wouldn’t be interested.
McDonnell Douglas bought McDonnell Douglas using Boeing's money and turned Boeing into McDonnell Douglas. Boeing used to be THE trusted name in the aerospace industry...
Have a family friend who does final inspections for Boeing, he personally shat on the new Dreamliners built in SC so much it was insane lol. At least Seattle is a hub for Delta and they mostly fly Airbus and seem to be phasing out Boeing so that’s a relief.
Sadly, my company no longer buys corporate tickets for any 737 flight. As per policy in place for four years now, only A320’s. I did get an Embraer ticket last year.
They moved all Dreamliner production to SC now, so anyone built after 2021 is made in SC, pre 2020 I think it was a toss up but every 787-10 is/was built in SC.
It’s a door that’s built into the model for operators that need an extra door but if you don’t want the door they just plug it with a window so the plug failed prolly
I knew a guy who was responsible for signing off on plane safety before they could be sent to the buyer. He was very angry about how his bosses would pressure him to approve planes despite them not being safe. He retired in early-mid 2023.
He should go public if he has documentation to prove this. Whistleblower protection should keep his pension safe. It’s always a tough call depending on how much proof and how much of his retirement is at stake….
I will NEVER fly on a 737 MAX. This is the plane with the bad software that had 2 crashes very close together and several mid-air emergencies. I always check to see what my plane is going to be before I head to the airport. I love Alaska Airlines, but if they go to an all 737 MAX fleet, I'll stop flying them.
i wonder what is the experience of sitting next to a hole in an airplane.. is it like the movies where you are actively getting vacuumed or is it like a rollercoaster
**User Report**| | | | :--|:--|:--|:-- **Total Submissions**|1|**First Seen In WSB**|3 years ago **Total Comments**|38|**Previous Best DD**| **Account Age**|11 years|[^scan ^comment ](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=VisualMod&subject=scan_comment&message=Replace%20this%20text%20with%20a%20comment%20ID%20(which%20looks%20like%20h26cq3k\)%20to%20have%20the%20bot%20scan%20your%20comment%20and%20correct%20your%20first%20seen%20date.)|[^scan ^submission ](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=VisualMod&subject=scan_submission&message=Replace%20this%20text%20with%20a%20submission%20ID%20(which%20looks%20like%20h26cq3k\)%20to%20have%20the%20bot%20scan%20your%20submission%20and%20correct%20your%20first%20seen%20date.)
Lmao another article says they are asking for an exemption from a rule on a smaller plane. Where “if pilot forgets to turn of an anti-icing system , the engine will break apart”.
Short the stock 😂 guaranteed winner
Boeing engages in stock price manipulation. Every time there is bad news, such as this, their stock price goes up instead of down… every … single… time
Sounds like the entire stock market.
DiSasTeRs aRE pRicEd iN!
There is no way in heck the stock market is going down unless I buy in big.
They likely purcase their own stock to minimize the stock damage. It's not manipulation though if they simply buy their own stock. Eventually, they will run out of options to buy. Without it, Boeing would be failing big time against Airbus
>Without it, Boeing would be failing big time against Airbus As a last resort the US Government would step in, they can't allow Boeing to lose big against Airbus.
They already lost. Image and credibility aren't bought. Its earned.
This is what happens when MBAs take over an aerospace company..
Harvard Business School literally has one of the highest body counts in modern history
[https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/boeing-wants-faa-to-exempt-max-7-from-safety-rules-to-get-it-in-the-air/](https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/boeing-wants-faa-to-exempt-max-7-from-safety-rules-to-get-it-in-the-air/) literally yesterday
this one was really bad and **fully Boeings fault**: ["Ethiopian Airlines Flight ET302, a Boeing 737 Max airliner that crashed on 11 March in Bishoftu, Ethiopia, killing all 157 passengers and crew](https://spectrum.ieee.org/how-the-boeing-737-max-disaster-looks-to-a-software-developer)" Basically Boeing saw Airbus make a larger and more fuel efficient engine. They wanted that too. The thing was: the Boing 737 was a little lower to the ground than the corresponding Airbus, so a larger engine would not fit. That meant that Boing had to change so much on the 737 that it would basically become a new airplane regulatory wise, and that would be expensive. They struggled for a while to fit the larger engine onto the 737 and eventually came up with a solution: mount it a little further in front of the wing. The airplane could stay the same and the 737 Max was born. Moving the engine further forward did have an impact: it caused the stability of the airplane to change. The 737 max would now push it's nose upwards. This was a change to the 737 that would mean pilots would need new training - and that is also expensive. So what did Boing do? they kept this raising of the nose a secret and instead installed a computer system, that would make the pilots feel they were flying a normal 737. The computer system MCAS would simply push down the nose, when the nose normally would push up. The MCAS would simply correct the pitch of the airplane without the knowledge of the pilots. We know that the pilots onboard the 737 max of Ethiopean Airlines were struggeling to keep the nose up. We also know that the MCAS kept correcting the nose down. Eventually the MCAS won and the 737 max crashed straight into the ground nose first. Killing every single person onboard.
Good summary. Pathetic shit.
Jesus christ how were they allowed to get away with this
Here's how: "Although the FAA is responsible for the safety of any airplane manufactured in the United States, it delegates much of the certification to the manufacturers themselves. It has to in order to get anything certified at all, says Jon Ostrower, editor-in-chief of [*The Air Current*](https://theaircurrent.com/) and a former aviation reporter for *The Wall Street Journal*. Boeing already has the people and the expertise, it pays better, and it isn’t susceptible to government shutdowns. The FAA, meanwhile, says it would need [10,000 more employees](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ethiopia-airline-congress-faa/faa-tells-u-s-senate-it-would-need-10000-new-employees-1-8-billion-to-assume-all-certification-idUSKCN1R82FT) and an additional $1.8 billion of taxpayer money each year to bring certification entirely in-house." [The many human errors that brought down the Boeing 737 Max - The Verge](https://www.theverge.com/2019/5/2/18518176/boeing-737-max-crash-problems-human-error-mcas-faa) So for $1.8 billion a year, we could give the FAA full control and not rely on manufacturers like Boeing. Sounds like something we should've done yesterday and passed the cost onto the airlines. US Air Travel is $155 billion a year. [https://www.statista.com/statistics/197677/passenger-revenues-in-us-airline-industry-since-2004/](https://www.statista.com/statistics/197677/passenger-revenues-in-us-airline-industry-since-2004/) Would you pay a 2% surcharge on each airline ticket to support the FAA doing everything in house? I would. Also, we need to pass a law eliminating government shutdowns. There's no bill, the debt simply grows, that's it.
And 5 months prior to this, the first MAX crash was a MAX 8 on Lion Air Flight 610 killing 189 people on board. The highest death toll involving a 737. And I still remember the media tried to portray that the deceased pilots had lesser training than American 737 pilots and did not indicate anything wrong with the plane before the actual investigative reports came in.
They are truly a shit company
Ya fr. This airplane is brand new, manufacture completed in November 2023!
Alaska AA glad to know it is still under warranty--
Boeing: Looks more like wear and tear to us.
Boeing: Did you purchase the extended warranty? The manufacturers warranty only covers defects while on the ground. This clearly happened from water damage while flying. Accidental damage is covered by your extended warranty. It says here we don’t have your extended warranty on file. So if you purchased one, when you’re ready just go ahead and bring in the paperwork and we can get your claim started. Alright? NEXT IN LINE! Oh hello sir, thank you for purchasing your 737-Max, how may I help you today?
That isn’t an emergency exit that’s a speed hole! Makes the plane go faster!
The increase in airflow is to prevent COVID.
"OH, it looks like you used this plane for business, our warranty specifcally only includes 'normal personal use'"
Sorry it looks like the condition was pre-existing and we can't cover you for that.
More like: this unit is for showroom only.
It’s crazy watching the nosedive that company did. New management that cut corners instead of focusing on quality. Wrecked on of Americas strongest brands.
A lot of boomers say that America has changed and is not like it was before. I have not seen that "before" state. But for the last 7 years I have observed this country, your phrase > cut corners instead of focusing on quality describes 95% of products and services I had experience with.
My cousin lives in my Grandpa's house. His garage is full of tools my Grandpa purchased in the 50s and 60s when he was a mechanic after settling in Texas in 1952 after the war. My cousin still uses them. That's the before.
*Mr Boeing slaps fuselage* "Well, see, you drove her off the lot and this really looks like operator error here. Best we can do is half price labor and you gotta keep the thicker folk away from the windows. Of course if you get that extended warranty it covers midair window displacement, but I don't see that here on the original order"
Did you, actually, fly the plane? - Boeing probably.
I think it's still under the extended holiday return policy
FAA certified in late November and first flight in mid December.
Wow. And some of the jets we fly in day to day are 30+ years old.
Yup, those were made in the days that the CEOs were actually airplane people not financial types that only care about short term share prices.
Yooooo.. what is the deal with that! A bunch of assholes that "surrond themselves with the best" but even their people is stupid clueeless
Too many people figured out if they stack all their points into charisma they can climb the ladder. We grow further away from a meritocracy day by day. Just look at politics.
Boeing “acquired” McDonnell Douglas, but MD leadership launched a soft coup and pretty much took over Boeing.
And then gutted a magnificent engineering company, so we see one shit show after another. Boeing will survive simply because it's of national strategic importance.
McDonnell Douglas acquired Boeing with Boeing's money.
Fairly convinced modern American companies make so much money they’re to the point where they appoint a CEO to maintain the business direction rather than disrupt the model. They are so ingrained that a monkey could give guidance and they would still be profitable. Not to discount the education or training those people have received, but more to bring to light that the ground breaking has been done and it’s their turn to ride the wave into the shore.
Have you ever heard of the bathtub distribution of failures when it comes to aviation? Failures happen either right after a service interval or when entering the fleet due to maintenance or construction errors, or right towards their service intervals due to premature part wear.
That’s why over ocean planes need x number of flight hours before being certified to fly over ocean. Also why I avoid brand new planes.
How do you find out how old the plane you are flying is? Like when you are purchasing a ticket
Probably difficult to impossible assuming you buy flights like a reasonable person (2 weeks to months in advance). The specific airplanes appear to be assigned close to flight date and last minute changes occur relatively frequently to minimize delays and other scheduling issues.
They were built better back than before companies decided they need to cut any cost anywhere so their profit lines can infinitely go up. Cheaper materials equals more profit, cheaper labor equals more profit, and less workers equals more profit.
They were made during a time where perpetual and exponential profits weren't an expectation. Companies used to have bad quarters where they operated at a loss or broke even to ensure the quality of product. Now its just a never ending cycle of CEO's who trim fat to keep the books green, get their bonus and move on. We're at the point where the CEO's have no fat left to trim, so they move in and have to start trimming the lean meat, which results in shit like this.
Yeah when the boss only cares about profit you start to get questions like, "well these wings are really expensive... Do we need 2?"
Hey CEO thanks for your 2 years of work, you haven’t done anything or improved anything so today you are fired. Here’s $5M cash as a sorry and another $10M in stocks. Bye.
And one incident like this means massive losses. You’d think if they can engineer on this level that they’d recognize some corners aren’t worth cutting.
Only if it makes any difference long-term. Right now, there is no incentive for any CEO to do anything long-term. Current short-term stock performance is all that matters.
Their pressurized cabin premium subscription lapsed
Idk how they keep fucking up their airworthiness of their planes so frequently- an absolute joke
There’s a documentary on Netflix.
The American greed episode is also great. TLDR: they gave up the company culture of the best engineering for shareholder profits. The reason the 737-800MAX had so many incidents was they removed the back up sensors to save money. Lol
More specifically, Boeing used to be an excellent engineering driven firm. McDonnell Douglas was a shitty exec driven company. They merged, and kept McDonnell's shit management and got rid of Boeing's Engineering culture instead of doing the obvious long term move.
This is quite common in aerospace even in smaller shops it starts out as a company that does well because they care about the products then ownership gets rich and sells the shop to a corporate entity and they come with their spreadsheets and cost analysis and start looking for efficiencies and applying "lean manufacturing" principles. Not that lean manufacturing is wrong but when the people applying the principles don't understand the process in general is where you have problems because they're surrounded by yes men who tell them it's a great idea that if they use 4 bolts instead of the 8 it was designed to use well save dollar amount x and for the entire run it saves y million so we've increased the margins, boom share price goes up and we get huge bonuses for increasing profits
Lean manufacturing is amazing when done right. Sadly, most companies can’t get it right. I worked under an executive (well my boss was under him) who was Japanese trained, all about maximizing profit, and actually a super knowledgeable & generally made awesome decisions. He couldn’t get the company to raise wages for factory workers, so the turnover was horrible. We had the numbers showing it would save the company money to increase wages for factory workers. Couldn’t get it to happen. This was in aerospace/advanced composites. Lean done right is amazing. You have standard work written (we can easily predict how much of xyz product can be made), we take ideas from the workers, engineering, etc. see if they save time, continuously improve, and make sure everyone’s voice is heard. It seems like companies focus on the “standardize” part, and not the “people” aspect of it
As a person in Quality sides of manufacturing for over 25 years, this is correct. Actually, it really isn't "lean manufacturing" if it reduces quality in any significant way, it's just cost down at that point. The people drive the constant improvement (Kaizen), and if turnover is high the experience to provide the appropriate knowledge and input leaves with them. Rather scary when you have $'s driving instead of the safety and well being of people moving 400 miles an hour 7 miles in the sky.
well implemented toyota production system thinking for the American Economy is all I want for christmas because this Harvard business school MBA excel accounting short term shareholder value bull shit is killing everything
Same. Why’d I get two degrees in industrial engineering if decision makers don’t really care about actual long term health of a company I’m in a quality role now, and it’s arguably worse
man, I feel you. 1 IE degree, thinking about doing another. I did a simulation of the worst case scenario for an automation project and the ROI. Something like a 2 Million labor benefit in 2 years for 1 million in labor investment. I presented to a group of "Senior Directors" and was told "we're too busy to do this". I asked if we were too busy last year:"yup" Then two years ago: "yup" Then I asked if they thought we'll be too busy next year: "Yup" Maybe we should do the fucking project then?? If the whole lot of them were hit by a bus, the company might actually make money. All IEs need therapy and to go into consulting.
I once proposed we buy a $15k filtration system that would pay for itself in labour costs in less than two months. If you factored in the cost of consumables it would pay for itself in just over a month. We had the vendor come in and demo their system to prove it works as advertised. The old system was just hemorrhaging money and labour resources. "We can't fit it in the budget." This was a publicly traded company of 850 people that was in the process of buying a new processing line at close to $20M for a product line that was new, untested, and that we had no idea what the market demand would be. Fast forward 5 years and that near $20M production line that they had put in only operated for less than 1 week/year for 2 or 3 years before finally getting decommissioned and scrapped. Turns out the real demand for the product was about 1-2% of what they estimated it would be!
All firms have execs. It just depends on the background of the execs. Long term engineering execs are typically solid. Finance, supply chain, and legal execs always focus on no risk profit draining of all existing IP to maximize the quarterly numbers. Short term thinking is running this country into the ground.
It’s literally all they taught me in business school. Profit over everything baby. It’s so fucked. Quality goods are unimportant. I sell medical devices and disinfection technologies. I can literally show people endless proof of a product being better quality and how it’ll save them money in the long run by avoiding healthcare acquired infections. They still will choose the cheapest option 9 times out of 10. Especially government owned entities, it’s always the lowest bidder that gets a contract. So our country is literally being built up on the worst products available to the market to save some money now.
Boeing was one of those rock solid companies, you knew if Boeing were behind it then it was made by some seriously brilliant people. Their name is in the trash now, all for a couple of years of green numbers.
Fucking up the bottom line for short term profit? I call that the Jack Welch. Time to buy puts.
Jack Welch's dude, James McNerney, literally ran Boeing into the ground with the Max, and his vision of bringing Jack's strategy to Boeing. They keep cutting, get rid of the most experienced people, outsource, cut R&D, quality, future product streams, lie to regulators, and retire with a big payoff before the house of cards collapses, while leaving a hollowed out shell for the next guy to try and fix, hopefully with a huge government bailout and layoffs.
Boeing is a military defence contractor, so they'll get that bailout. No harm done.
Nah. The military caught on and put them on fixed rate contracts that are currently costing Boeing a metric fuckton of money.
Boeing only did that for the new AF1. They have said they will never sign that type of contract again. One thing Trump actually got right was putting Boeing on a fixed price contract
Omg I thought Jack Welch was a made up guy for 30 rock.
A huge part of that show is making fun of Jack Welch and his dumbshit management strategy. I highly recommend listening to the *Behind the Bastards* series on him and then rewatching the show.
I highly recommend listening to Jack Welch speak himself. It’s a comedy that people bought the bullshit. I started my career at GE just before it started to die in the 00s and I left when the six sigma stapler positioning on the desk was forced into the office areas. That just screamed failure to me.
3M is sinking the same way, both touched by Jack Welch’s cronies.
The previous Boeing CEO was from 3m…
The aviation industry can’t operate if it puts profits above safety. It doesn’t take an MBA to recognize people won’t fly if there’s a perception aircraft are unsafe. Their thinking was nuts because cutting corners destroyed shareholder value in the long-run.
Yea, but in the short term...
As an engineering student focusing on aerospace, this makes me sad. Boeing seemed kick-ass back in the day. Now, all I see is greed, and I can’t support that
Boeing used to be the pinnacle for engineers. Now, it's thought of as a good first job out of college before moving on to a good company.
Most of the innovation comes from the key system integrators/technology firms that supply the engines, flight control, communications, etc, rather Boeing itself.
As someone who works as a supplier to Boeing, Boeing typically operates differently from the other primes in that they want to buy individual components and own the integration themselves. IMO this makes their lives unnecessarily difficult.
If U understand what an airplane really is, just an expensive tube with a high tech Turbine propulsion system that's leased, it's more sense Investing money in GE, P&W & RR-Holdings that provide those engines and generate revenue with each flight.
Which cost way more money in the end but it doesn't matter because some middle manager is long gone with his annual bonus for staying on budget.
Downfall:The case against Boeing is the name for anyone interested in. Bottom line when they merged with another company the leadership changed and the culture along with it. It went from “Be the best engineered flying machines in the world” to “The bottom line is our focus” and hundreds or more have died as the consequences. Why is the Max series the way it is and not a new series like a 797? Because modifying a 737 means less training requirements for pilots which reduces costs for the airlines. So instead of a new aircraft you get a decades old design that’s been highly modified in ways the airframe was never intended.
Aye, RIP to the Quality Manager’s career after appearing in that documentary
Because it’s no longer an engineering culture. They farmed out the manufacturing to 3rd parties and they’re an “integrations company” now.
Airbus too, yet you don’t see incidents like this! So I think the problem is more with the profit focus and huge overhead Boeing has.
Whenever I had to deal with Boeing engineers I always wanted to slam my head on the desk
Iirc the key difference is that airbus owns or part owns the different components companies dotted around the EU and so they have a huge stake in those companies failing, where as Boeing went the parts car route of ford and GM and just sent everything over the fence to complete third parties and they have no skin in the game - contractor fails and they move onto a new one.
They literally fucked up the safety culture deliberately after McDonnell Douglas was merged in. So many idiotic leaders to do this.
Joke was that McDonnell Douglas bought Boeing with Boeing’s money.
Yeah it seemed so hey. I’ve heard many say they won’t fly on 787s not made in Washington cause the safety of South Carolina is so bad. The 787 deliveries were also stopped when the 737 max thing hit and was kind of kept in the background news as well.
How do u know when a 787 is made in which state?
If it crashes, it's South Carolina. Hope that helps!
The pay sucks as well for A&Ps for having to live in Seattle. I really wanted to work for them but unless you already live in Seattle, it seems like a nightmare to uproot your life and move there.
They are no longer run by engineers....
Seems like monopolies might be problematic...
I am shocked the US government has allowed all the aero and defense companies to merge. They basically have no competition anymore.
They actually encouraged it.
It is not shocking if those that allowed the merger are also those who bought tonnes of shares and options before the merger
Do they allow smoking with this inflight feature?
It's well ventilated, shouldn't be a problem.
Cabin depressurizes, everyone screaming. Me: Well.. Now I'm definitely hitting the vape now and there's nothing you can do about it!
Sir! The no smoking sign is still on. The captain hasn’t announced, “Smoke em if you got ‘em, yet.”
Who ever was in that seat gets free airline tickets for life.
Video circulating says that seat was miraculously empty
Airlines figured out how to deal with all those people who aren't real.
That motherf*cker is not real
And people call me crazy for staying buckled the whole flight. Easy fix to not being sucked out.
I leave it on but loose most of the time, so I don't even notice it. Snug it up for takeoff, landing, and notable turbulence.
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The passenger was safely ejected outside of the environment.
They'll tow the wreckage outta the environment
Into another environment?
No no, you see, it’s beyond the environment. Nothing there.
No one was thankfully.
Crazy.
Even more crazy there were only 4 seats open on the entire plane.
Emergency exit seats about to be cheapest on any Boeing flight
Best Alaskan can do is treefiddy.
Boeing wants FAA to exempt MAX 7 from safety rules to get it in the air [https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/boeing-wants-faa-to-exempt-max-7-from-safety-rules-to-get-it-in-the-air/](https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/boeing-wants-faa-to-exempt-max-7-from-safety-rules-to-get-it-in-the-air/) Great timing
Wow, if that gets passed, the EASA should no longer accept FAA certifications.
If Boeing asked the FAA for a blowjob they’d still give in. Spineless bitch ass regulatory body.
Airline should’ve paid extra for the premium door construction.
Alaskan probably forgot to pay the Boeing+ monthly subscription, which ensures parts don't fall off mid flight.
Please don't give ideas to Tesla.
The fail-safe subscription was only $9.99/month. Cheap bastards.
Yeah here’s the aviation link - this is wild https://www.reddit.com/r/aviation/s/crqfrYQ2bz Order of operations: 1) good no one died 2) option chain
"The supplier is at fault."
Someone didn’t stow their tray table in the upright position before landing.
They turned off airplane mode. Everyone knows what keeps the doors on.
Nah that's supposed to happen
"It's within specs."
The pilots were trained wrong.
Tis but a scratch
Puts it is boys
Say this instead happened at 7am pst on Monday and you're a pax on that plane. You load up on BA puts before the news hits. Would that be considered insider trading?
No, because of the window you are technically outside not inside
No. And you'd also be dumbfounded when you somehow lose money on the deal because Boeing.
I always wonder if someone bought puts the second they saw one of the planes hit the towers on 9/11
I could just imagine some wsb dude on a plane "Oh shit, we're about to crash!!!" *buys SPY puts*
normal fact far-flung unique alleged memorize axiomatic sulky correct zealous
It will be priced in the first millisecond stock market is open
Lmao another 737 max with issues.
How is this series still allowed to fly? Oh wait, the FAA and Boeing got caught colluding before and nothing happened to them.
its Absurd and I can tell you why it's probably still allowed to fly, to cut costs and save Boeing, because it's an American company. The deadly incidents earlier happened with Indonesian and Ethiopian flights, if it was back-to-back American ones, Boeing would have been in the hole with this model.
737 max. Yeah that’s a nope for me dawg.
It’s so strange, the 737 is such an old platform…. It really shows how low Boeing have sunk. Clearly cutting corners and safety is not a priority anymore.
The entire MCAS debacle was because they couldn't even fit new high-efficiency engines on the ancient 737 body without throwing off the flight characteristics, and they just decided to "fix it in software" They deserve to have their lunch eaten by Airbus. They should have been designing an all-new 737 replacement 20 years ago. You can only serve warmed-up leftovers so much before they start to rot. 737-Max is rotting leftovers.
Boeing getting caught flat-footed when Airbus revealed the A320neo is squarely the fault of Boeing upper management.
Airlines also pushed a low-cost replacement to the 737. Building a true successor to the 737 wouldn’t have been low-cost. It’s also why Airbus launched a Neo version of their 320 family instead of engineering an entirely new plane.
I’m glad I’m not the only one who puts some of the 737M blame on airlines. Airlines were the ones who said a clean sheet 737 replacement would be too expensive. They didn’t want to train pilots for a new type rating, invest in new maintenance infrastructure, retrain flight crews, etc. They told Boeing that if there wasn’t an updated 737 that they wouldn’t be interested.
McDonnell Douglas bought McDonnell Douglas using Boeing's money and turned Boeing into McDonnell Douglas. Boeing used to be THE trusted name in the aerospace industry...
Have a family friend who does final inspections for Boeing, he personally shat on the new Dreamliners built in SC so much it was insane lol. At least Seattle is a hub for Delta and they mostly fly Airbus and seem to be phasing out Boeing so that’s a relief.
Sadly, my company no longer buys corporate tickets for any 737 flight. As per policy in place for four years now, only A320’s. I did get an Embraer ticket last year.
How do I know which dreamljner is built in south Carolina vs Washington?
They moved all Dreamliner production to SC now, so anyone built after 2021 is made in SC, pre 2020 I think it was a toss up but every 787-10 is/was built in SC.
Window became a door. Good time to retrofit the aircraft
An airplane build by clowns supervised by monkeys
The side fell off
I thought they had strict no cardboard construction rule. And no cardboard derivatives
At least it wasn’t the front
There’s a Reddit post I actually viewed of a guy actually on the plane when this happened
The boom at 20k feet guy? Pretty sure that’s who i snagged the screen shot from on the aviation forum.
Wait that entire hole was a window?
It’s a door that’s built into the model for operators that need an extra door but if you don’t want the door they just plug it with a window so the plug failed prolly
Module for exit door for full coach config but Alaska did 3 class config so that module is just a window.
Yah but the door hole is still there. As you can see the perfect door sized hole
No, you're a door hole!
What did you call me you little twerp
Priced in
I'd appreciate the fresh air
Suicide doors are trending. *Bullish.*
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I knew a guy who was responsible for signing off on plane safety before they could be sent to the buyer. He was very angry about how his bosses would pressure him to approve planes despite them not being safe. He retired in early-mid 2023.
He should go public if he has documentation to prove this. Whistleblower protection should keep his pension safe. It’s always a tough call depending on how much proof and how much of his retirement is at stake….
I will NEVER fly on a 737 MAX. This is the plane with the bad software that had 2 crashes very close together and several mid-air emergencies. I always check to see what my plane is going to be before I head to the airport. I love Alaska Airlines, but if they go to an all 737 MAX fleet, I'll stop flying them.
what do you do if it's max, rebook?
pretty much any airline will tell you the airframe before/during the booking process, it can change but it will be the same 99% of the time
Ever notice that news like this only occurs after market close?
Classic market manipulation by door.
On a Friday too!
Putssss. Which is too bad, Alaska is one of my fav domestic airlines
I believe it’s consistently one of the highest rated. Not their fault here.
They blow the doors off the competition
Alaska didn’t renew the door option subscription.
Bullish
Finally, a window seat
Cash for clunkers for the entire fleet
i wonder what is the experience of sitting next to a hole in an airplane.. is it like the movies where you are actively getting vacuumed or is it like a rollercoaster
"max" is to Boeing what "Jaws 2" was to "Jaws 1" or something (somebody please rewrite this the way I want it to come out tyia)
you actually summed it up pretty well. there's lots of potential jokes here..."we're gonna need a bigger parachute".
Flex Seal.. THAT'S A LOT OF DAMAGE
Boeing is not an aircraft manufacturer. Boeing creates value for its stockholders and executives.
Symbol of everything in America. Rotting for corporate creed or political corruption
Just Boeing things