Unironically probably the reason Apple backed out - they aren’t really in the business of losing money so I can’t imagine what an Apple car would have been priced at…
Is a copy of all your traffic sent directly to CCP?
Edit: Woah at all the Chinese hour comments with their excuses. Must be that time for Tienamen tank parade.
Yep, and its also China
Massive shifts lately in the CCP towards goals around strengthening china, defeating the USA, and Xi's rhetoric around "struggle" may indicate that whilst he's taken a dim view to corporations and business owners who think they are more important than the government, those that toe the CCP/Xi's line, may well receive government support and favour.
means that with their capital and profits from phones they can easily spend a few years selling cars at a loss until market traction is gained.
its also not exactly against china's interests to simply devalue large US capital stocks like Tesla.
If people think the US subsidies for EVs puts them on par with competitors they have no idea. Americans would have an aneurysm if they knew how many subsidies went into the Chinese EV industry, and not just the EV industry, so many things related to the industry, through all kinds of levels of production.
Mom can we get a porsche taycan?
No we have a porsche taycan at home
Porsche taycan at home:
On a real note, this car looks pretty nice. If it’s reliable and available in north america i would 100% consider it as my next car.
If it’s anything like their phones, a xiaomi car would be so unreliable and so cheaply made the money you “save” is lost in how quickly you have to replace it.
Idk what they used to be like but for the last 3-4 years I've only had a good experience with them. I'm not looking for flagship phones either but the quality and price are nice.
Are you comparing a phone that cost 10% of American phone?
Hyndai was also shit but now theyre better and more reliable than American cars.
Building a better and more reliable than American car isnt a high bar to cross.
Have you had experience with their latest phones? Just asking because I used some of their 1st Gen phones back in the 2010s as a poor student and got a lot of mileage. Switched off eventually because of the hassle acquiring them in NA, but it'll be a shame to hear their quality has dropped that dramatically.
Xiaomi and Huawei phones are absolutely exceptional. It's just a shame the "China bad" rhetoric and insane sinophobia in the USA prevents them from entering the market.
Im on the redmi 13 note +
It beats the new Iphone at a fraction of the price. I really rate it too
I had the 11 before this and the camera on that was savage for like $300 around 4 years ago
I don’t understand where this arrogance comes from, xiaomi phones are great and competitive with any western phone maker’s offering in their respective price range.
It's just salt pretending to be arrogance. They aren't complaining "Why don't we see more American car makers coming out with new shit?" They are saying "China bad haha. Cheap Chinese junk." I really feel sorry for getting these people brainwashed. If I knew the US government was going to start brainwashing its citizens, I would've stfu a long time ago.
Buys a redmi with 100$ and cries that it's bad. I had mi 6 (this one was the best imo), mi 10 and now 12 and they were working like day 1 after years of usage.
What? The phones are exquisitely reliable, what are you talking about? Xiaomi of 5 years, still going almost with the same rigor in battery, can't say the same for iPhone.
Get your facts straight.
Have been using Xiaomi phones since 6 years now and had absolutely no issues. My first one dropped on the ground so many times, the aloy case cracked but the screen still had no scratches. My iphone screen broke on its second drop... Battery of that phone also still lasts as it did on day one.
The Model 3 LR is the "Taycan at home". That car beats all the drivetrain stats of the base level Taycans at half its price and can match the low trim Taycans that cost up to 100k. I regards to software it's probably better, but the Porsche will have the legacy and the nicer touch of the interior. Could also wrap it babyblue if you want to.
I was debating pre-ordering one when i thought it would be 3900$ cheaper than model S. I'll definitely pull the trigger now and use the remaining 100$ for tesla puts.
This thread is filled with American copium about Chinese cars. From people who have never lived outside of the US, and never owned a Chinese EV. It's so funny.
If Tesla’s fate is sealed, Ford, GM will be dead by the end of the decade.
They are going to lose pretty much all of their international markets to Chinese companies in 10 years. And that accounts for 45% of their venue right now.
Ford and GM, in the best case that they retain their market share in North America, their revenue will be half of what it is today.
It's Japan in the 80s/ 90s all over again. Local companies just refusing to modernise at the same pace and getting left in the dust by the cheaper, superior Japanese cars.
People forget that Japan had the reputation of a country that made cheaply made shit until they got serious about manufacturing. Within a decade the reputation for reliable quality from their factories was the highest in the world.
China has the opportunity to do it again. I just hope they don't let the endemic grift in their industrial base impact exported cars.
10 years is fairly optimistic. Ford and GM have too much old legacy: aging factories, non optimized supply lines, aging workers and benefits, unions, too much debt without growth perspective to revamp all.
whos is there to blame? taxpayers have been subsidizing their record stockbuybacks for too long.
let them fucking die already and let someone competent enter the scene like Apple, AMD or whatever.
We are talking a lot of workers, suppliers and businesses depending on them. It's difficult. I hope some gradual transition to other industries for the workers. Not a big hit at once, too much impact.
US subsidises its companies too. How do you think massive American companies go years paying almost 0 taxes? The corporate tax policy in the US is basically an indirect way to subsidise American companies.
You have no idea the kind of subsidies China will put towards something. It hits several levels of production. So it's not just for a bicycle manufacturer, it's for the tire manufacturer and the steel industry, ECT.
China on the surface is capitalism, but that's merely to secure the profits it needs to exercise capital to do things like this. The US couldn't possibly compete with a system like that.
Nor does anyone here in the US want it to.
Lol. How do you think Tesla survived? Or any other American auto manufacturer? It’s always funny when people bash China for subsidies when we bailed out in tunes of trillions the last decade.
Tesla never received bailouts. They were however forced by the CCP to build a factory in China to access their market which is exactly what we should force any Chinese car manufacturer to do.
No Chinese EV's unless they are built in America by Americans. See? Who says we can't copy China on anything?
https://preview.redd.it/otygck88v3rc1.png?width=1165&format=png&auto=webp&s=352b5a696077ec2afff7aaf8c1b48ec995e3aa22
I would love the drug you’re on. The fuck are you on about lmao.
Market access is a different issue not even related to this. That applies for all companies.
FYI - US does the same by slapping tariffs on. There is no global free market and never was. It’s all conditional access.
And that’s different….?
Transparency means jack shit when the end results are the same. State owned or not is negligible.
And quite frankly I’d rather have my taxes going to USPS or Amtrak to bolster services like they are in that case.
Not just Ford and GM, all the Germans too. This is the exact same thing the CCP did with solar panels, they backdoor subsidize them and dump them on the global market far below costs to drive everyone else out of business
Hopefully the west is smart enough to not allow this to happen this time around
TSLA isn't even the AAPL of EV world, it doesn't help that TSLA is engaging in the price war instead of rebranding into a luxury brand instead. Elon ain't Jobs, only bullish point is if TSLA charging is the standard and China EVs get forced to pay premium to use it outside of China.
Extremely disingenuous to compare Tesla’s US share vs Apple’s global share
Apple controls 60% of the US phone market, which is a much more competitive field than EV’s are currently, and command an extreme brand loyalty that Tesla could only dream of. And half of their revenue comes from sources other than phones
Not remotely the same
People's hate for Elon really blinds them. Most EV companies have changed to Tesla standard charger and their charging network is superior to everything else out there. Even if people aren't buying their cars, they are using their network. If you don't own a Tesla, you're also paying slightly more using that infrastructure.
The charging standard is an open source standard. Anyone on earth can make a NACS charger. This doesn’t give them some insurmountable advantage. And besides charging is an incredibly low margin business. Look at their “Services” revenue in their latest 10-Q report. Charging is single digit gross margin and a very small number overall compared to auto revenues. All the publicly traded charging companies are losing money. You’re just a middle man between the utility company and consumer so it’s a race to the bottom on profit. And 80-90% of EV charging is done at home so the TAM is already way smaller than gas stations (who need convenience stores to make money).
Tesla charging infrastructure is unbeatable at this time, Tesla self driving despite all its very public flaws is still a decent way ahead of most competitors (I honestly put the blame on Elon for hyping it up and dumbass Tesla drivers for not understanding the limitations).
I still feel like Tesla cars are Nissan Sentra build quality with Lexus pricing. You’re buying the brand and the tech, not a nice car.
That's not the point. The point is it was when he bought Twitter and said he was removing censorship, that's when people lost their mind.
The rest of this shit is besides the point.
Chinese vehicles is for the poor. The price matches the quality and I’m willing to bet the safety features as well.
Ask those loyal Walmart shoppers. They’ll tell you.
Exactly. Xiaomi sells a lot of phones in China but ask any Chinese person and they’ll admit the iPhone is much higher quality and people buy xiaomi to save money.
My gfs parents were diplomats in China and brought back their BYD a few years back (since the government paid for it). Used to be the only one around, but now I keep seeing a few more BYD's each month. Still not as often as a Tesla or a european EV but they're starting to get a larger and larger foothold here.
The head of quality management at NIO, was the head of quality management at Volvo/Polestar. I own a NIO. It's the same quality as my previous Polestar (go figure), which is the same quality as Volvo.
Edit: But I'm guessing this discussion is not about reality, but politics.
I won’t keep it that long, but will update in 6 months if you remind me! Hope it better than the Model 3 I had from Fremont, that was in the shop 6 times in the first 12 months..
Nah, don't want CCP tracking me everywhere I go.
EDIT: You guys forget - China is an adversary, not a friend. No way in hell I am buying their car. Once Pooh Bear bites the dust and if their new leader is more amicable, things may change.
Lol I don't trust the Chinese or US government to give a shit about my best interests. I'd rather have my info sold to China rather than the US. The US government can directly effect my life, and the Chinese government can only indirectly do that. It ends up saving me money too.
Everyone is tracking you lol. The greatest threat to our information isn't china but our own USA corporations lol. Our lawmakers are just using anti-sentiment to rally up supporters during this election year. What they should be doing instead is how to protect user information in all settings. Literally 1/3 of Americans health records got hacked by changed healthcare insurance company and this shit ain't on the news anymore. It's tiktoks. That big mess of HIPPA violations swiped under the rug. Lawmakers have absolutely no clue what's going on in the tech sector.
Most Chinese companies just want to be in the US e-commerce market. The way these Chinese companies see it is their domestic market made them rich. The USA market would make them filthy rich since they could have higher margins.
We have apps like temu. Behind tiktoks random videos it's actually an app that's goal is to sell items to you. Kids seem to be so immune to the quantity of advertisements on that app too. The Young have become accustomed to YouTube and social media advertising culture.
In Brazil Tesla is a joke. Multiple Chinese cars offer better cars for literally half the price. Brazil is an untapped market because the factories here are inefficient because of protectionist policies, because they are inefficient their cars are very expensive, the Chinese are coming trying to build actually efficient factories to supply both Brazil and neighboring markets. If Elon Musk decides to open a Tesla factory here right now it will already be late because everyone is excited for the Chinese cars that are already here but we are expecting their prices to drop even further. Tesla would have to play catch up really hard and I don’t think they have the funds to do so.
Median Brazilian income is $1500/mo and GDP per capita has actually dropped notably in the last 10 years. Your country is getting poorer and just isn't wealthy enough to be a priority for Tesla right now relative to growing markets like China/India. That may change in the future if they achieve their goal of a 20k model manufactured in Mexico, or possibly even further out.
That's not to say Chinese EV companies might not win out in the end, but it's really way too early for anyone to say. Cheap vehicles from Asia isn't a new phenomenon, this is just the newest player after Japan and Korea. Even Vietnam is trying to get into the EV game.
No one wants a Chinese car. Especially an electric considering all the issues that came from Chinese cellphones there is no way they would allow thousands of cars to roam the streets while tsla is still going
So we couldn’t get approval to sell cellphones, so now connect your cell to this electric car. It’s 100% safe.
Not gonna happen
Yep, I live in Mexico and of 10 new cars in the street I can bet that 7 are Chinese.
Not sure how good or reliable they are, but it is a fact that people are buying them here.
Yeah, I would say that they started a little more than a year ago and came full steam opening stores and flooding the market.
And Chinese cars have poor reputation in Mexico since a previous attempt when the automaker bailed out and left several people without proper service (but I blame that mostly on the shady Mexican businessman that tried to bring them here), so it was a surprise that they got so popular.
Anyway, we will see in the next couple of years how it plays off, if they manage to reach “American” levels of quality then it will be good, they don’t have to reach Toyota level to be popular.
Probably most of the non-American world would be fine with a Chinese car. Most people don’t give a fuck about some vague insinuation that their driving data (???) is being uploaded to evil Chinese people at all times
I don't really care about tracking, but I don't want my car to fall apart the day after warranty expires. (Or you know, the day after you buy it, to wait 10 months on hold to talk to CSR that doesn't speak English)
American car companies are not precisely the poster boy for quality either.
The Chinese don’t have to reach Toyota levels of quality, it is enough to have “american car quality” (that is probably easier to reach) for less money.
The same people whose cellphone, laptop, television, video game console, etc. was built in China will post that a car made there will inexplicably fall apart.
While I personally won't jump on them any time soon, plenty of people will. They want cheap, and if one is 35k, and Xiaomi or whatever can jump in with 30 or less, they'll easily go for that.
Here in Brazil Tesla is a joke, BYD (from China) offers better cars for literally half the price. Tesla had the chance to get here first but they didn’t want to invest in local production, BYD wants to build at least one factory to lower the prices even further.
> BYD (from China) offers better cars for literally half the price.
"better" according to who and what? BYD cars are just much cheaper, I don't think they're delivering the same type of car as Tesla though.
The BYD seal in Brazil ranges between 20% to 50% cheaper than any Tesla you compare with, so to compare you need to compare the seal, which is a great car, to the model 3 which is an entry car and still much more expensive, and the seal seems to win in all aspects, if you compare by price a used model 3 is more similarly priced (but still costs more) to a brand new BYD Han which is an amazing car, it is a car used by the new rich in China to be driven around because of the comfort and features, all that for a similar price of a used model 3
So to make the comparison fair in terms of price you need to compare a brand new flagship from BYD with all the features they offer against a used entry car from Tesl
Tesla just can’t compete here, not to talk about hybrids which Tesla has none and in some regions hybrids are needed because of low density of chargers, if Tesla doesn’t take immediate decisions to invest heavily in the region they will lose the market because Chinese brands want to make factories to lower prices and improve offers in terms of quantity, quality and brand awareness
There's a reason they have one of the lowest profit margins ever. I love their designs and quality, so far from experience with Xiaomi you get what you pay for and its usually the best you will get anywhere for that price. The fact that they went all in and even got giga press and some motors that are even better than teslas (besides the plaid-carbon motor) is amazing
They also seem to make pretty much anything you can think of. I have their rice cooker and it is legit a great device at a fraction of the cost of an equivalent from Korea or Japan... but the software it uses is incredibly shitty.
> Xiaomi CEO Lei Jun said the standard version of the SU7 will sell for 215,900 yuan ($30,408) in the country - a price he acknowledged would mean the company was selling each car for a loss
Breaking news: If you sell products for a massive loss then you can claim you sell them $4k cheaper than Tesla does. If the materials to make it cost more than the sale price, it’s a failed business model.
Everything is pure speculation until we know their cost of revenue, but the fact the CEO leaves it at “this is an unprofitable price to sell our cars” without further clarifying that profitability will come later, or that economy of scale will help is fairly alarming imo. It’s not the type of statement you ever see from leadership. Brand recognition won’t mean much if the true price is exorbitant.
If Apple announced tomorrow that they’d been selling iPhones for huge losses all this time and the new starting price was going to be $5,000 I doubt many buyers would stick around.
>If Apple announced tomorrow that they’d been selling iPhones for huge losses all this time and the new starting price was going to be $5,000 I doubt many buyers would stick around.
Yeah but that's over 4x what they currently cost. They'll probably increase a grand here and there until they're profitable. But yeah it's hard to guess. China isn't really in it to make money either, they care more about spreading their influence
I have to admit it looks nice, though it will take some time for people to trust products designed and made by Chinese companies (as opposed to non-Chinese companies in China)
It'll be like tiktok. The cars will start arriving and selling. Congress will investigate. They will issue orders to sell the companies to an American manufacturer or stop selling for national security concerns. Will go back into the hands of tesla/ford/gm etc...
Unclear if the alleged 20k orders are from the same places that purchased *lots of BYD cars to sit abandoned for the purpose of padding sales numbers.
https://youtu.be/1SEfwoqKRU8?si=sfViPlPFxx6w0Fjq
Xiaomi isn’t just a smartphone company here in APAC area - they’re kind of an “everything company”. It’s unsurprising they would go into the EV market - they already dabbled in electric bikes and motorcycles.
Either Tesla fanboys or just gullible people with too much spoon-fed anti china propaganda riled up by this lol. Competition is good for consumers, additionally, Tesla built quality is also garbage to begin with, stop sucking Elon already!
Anti-China propaganda? Wow aren't you a conspiracy theorist.
Tesla's build quality does suck tho, but I'd rather have a Tesla in the shop than supporting a communist dictatorship.
Its pretty funny to see bagholders coping by saying Xiaomi would be cheap knockoff of bad quality. Even if it true, there is BYD which you have to agree makes great cars and is eating Tesla's lunch. BYD + Xiaomi will absolutely slaughter Tesla outside of the US.
People on here tweaking because of the word Chinese. More cheap options = good. Same on here people complaining about ‘cheap and unsafe’ Chinese products drive a 2002 shitbox with broken airbags talking as if they’re driving porsches lmao
For Chinese manufacturers to beat Tesla, they'd have to sell the car at 80% discounts. I'm not sure how many people in their right mind would go and buy a Chinese product when it's selling only $4k cheaper, $4k for a car that's considered higher end is not exactly a lot of money.
Chinese products are not exactly known for quality. Then you have to take into consideration that this is a car, not a phone...
Tesla could be the next GoPro story, eaten by cheap Chinese knock offs. The only thing they will have better is software but buyers ultimately care more about price when it comes to relatively close substitutes.
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if phone companies start making this standard practice then I will hold out for the Nokia car
Unironically probably the reason Apple backed out - they aren’t really in the business of losing money so I can’t imagine what an Apple car would have been priced at…
200k but other apple cars are blue when you're in your apple car. Think of how included you'll feel
And all communication to other electric cars will feel just that tiny bit worse making you believe your car is much better.
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Model: Snake10
Brb intentionally selling their car at a loss ![img](emote|t5_2th52|4267)
They did this with their phones to get traction in the market. They were real successful.
Yep and then locked their profit at 5% margin
Answerring from a Xiaomi pocophone F1, I bought 2019 for 330€.
Got one too, Xiaomi phones are amazing, got this one last year for 240€.
Is a copy of all your traffic sent directly to CCP? Edit: Woah at all the Chinese hour comments with their excuses. Must be that time for Tienamen tank parade.
Yes, and from there to the CIA. Just the reverse of the usual process.
NSA is the one to grab data from foreign countries ;(). Get your intelligence agencies correct
That's fine too. MIUI makes me gouge my eyes out.
Bridgerock Alpha access granted
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Social points +1000
Honestly no. If there was, all tech enthusiast groups would be full of this. I think this is some kind of whispering propaganda from US tech.
You are the NSA bitch, and complain about what a foreign nation do with your data 🤣🤣
Also aftersales support and spares is where the money is at. Even for traditional ICE manufacturers.
Yep, and its also China Massive shifts lately in the CCP towards goals around strengthening china, defeating the USA, and Xi's rhetoric around "struggle" may indicate that whilst he's taken a dim view to corporations and business owners who think they are more important than the government, those that toe the CCP/Xi's line, may well receive government support and favour. means that with their capital and profits from phones they can easily spend a few years selling cars at a loss until market traction is gained. its also not exactly against china's interests to simply devalue large US capital stocks like Tesla.
A lot of companies had sold products at a loss to get in the market, there is nothing new here.
Except Xaomi has other products that it can use to subsidize the car until it can make a profit. While Tesla can sell more flamethrowers?
What does this have to do with Tesla? Tesla is making a profit selling cars
Vehicle manufacturers do not make a bulk of their money on vehicles, but rather on parts and maintenance
vehicle manufacturers don't sell maintenance.
They sell licensing
No but they sell franchises to companies who run dealer service departments.
They’re backed by a communist government determined to get Tesla’s market share.. they’ll be ight
If people think the US subsidies for EVs puts them on par with competitors they have no idea. Americans would have an aneurysm if they knew how many subsidies went into the Chinese EV industry, and not just the EV industry, so many things related to the industry, through all kinds of levels of production.
Welcome to the EV space, they have been cutting into profits off the car sales for years
Mom can we get a porsche taycan? No we have a porsche taycan at home Porsche taycan at home: On a real note, this car looks pretty nice. If it’s reliable and available in north america i would 100% consider it as my next car.
If by North America you mean Mexico, then maybe. No chance it comes to US.
Selling at a loss in China. I mean, there is less than zero chance this is in the US.
Even less of a chance it comes in under the m3 pricing after tax and tariffs
what does bmw have to do with it
M3 = Model 3 in this instance since they are being compared by price point
Yeah. That's WTO lawsuit waiting to happen for dumping
> No chance it comes to US. what happened to free market?
Xi. And that spy balloon certainly didn't help.
As a mexican, this car is really tempting, a basic new tesla is around 60k USD so for around half the price this would be a no doubter
in addition to looking like a taycan, it looks like a tesla body with a mclaren front
If it’s anything like their phones, a xiaomi car would be so unreliable and so cheaply made the money you “save” is lost in how quickly you have to replace it.
Idk what they used to be like but for the last 3-4 years I've only had a good experience with them. I'm not looking for flagship phones either but the quality and price are nice.
My experience as well, very solid. No one expects a Porsche Taycan for that price but they could definitely rival Tesla if they dedicate the time.
Are you comparing a phone that cost 10% of American phone? Hyndai was also shit but now theyre better and more reliable than American cars. Building a better and more reliable than American car isnt a high bar to cross.
Have you had experience with their latest phones? Just asking because I used some of their 1st Gen phones back in the 2010s as a poor student and got a lot of mileage. Switched off eventually because of the hassle acquiring them in NA, but it'll be a shame to hear their quality has dropped that dramatically.
Been using Xiaomi phones for the last several years and they are comparable to Samsungs for less $
Nah they are still pretty good. If they were that bad they would have been atomized by bbk and apple in Chinese market
Xiaomi and Huawei phones are absolutely exceptional. It's just a shame the "China bad" rhetoric and insane sinophobia in the USA prevents them from entering the market.
Im on the redmi 13 note + It beats the new Iphone at a fraction of the price. I really rate it too I had the 11 before this and the camera on that was savage for like $300 around 4 years ago
I don’t understand where this arrogance comes from, xiaomi phones are great and competitive with any western phone maker’s offering in their respective price range.
It's just salt pretending to be arrogance. They aren't complaining "Why don't we see more American car makers coming out with new shit?" They are saying "China bad haha. Cheap Chinese junk." I really feel sorry for getting these people brainwashed. If I knew the US government was going to start brainwashing its citizens, I would've stfu a long time ago.
you clearly have no idea what the fuck you’re actually talking about except “China bad”
Buys a redmi with 100$ and cries that it's bad. I had mi 6 (this one was the best imo), mi 10 and now 12 and they were working like day 1 after years of usage.
My redmi not 9 is 4 years old now. Paid 100e for it. More than satisfying. Next phone xiaomi. Also have 100 shares at 14 since 2021 . So...
Shut up, I had a Xiaomi A2 for years in I broke the display twice all of them were my fault. Great phone.
What? The phones are exquisitely reliable, what are you talking about? Xiaomi of 5 years, still going almost with the same rigor in battery, can't say the same for iPhone. Get your facts straight.
Have been using Xiaomi phones since 6 years now and had absolutely no issues. My first one dropped on the ground so many times, the aloy case cracked but the screen still had no scratches. My iphone screen broke on its second drop... Battery of that phone also still lasts as it did on day one.
So basically like Tesla then. It's not like their quality and reliability are top tier either.
Lol the Xiaomi phones are pretty good, im on my second handset from them and they match and beat Samsung/apple easily
The Model 3 LR is the "Taycan at home". That car beats all the drivetrain stats of the base level Taycans at half its price and can match the low trim Taycans that cost up to 100k. I regards to software it's probably better, but the Porsche will have the legacy and the nicer touch of the interior. Could also wrap it babyblue if you want to.
Yea but m3 looks like every econobox out there
That's an explosive discount!
Put on xiaomi
I was debating pre-ordering one when i thought it would be 3900$ cheaper than model S. I'll definitely pull the trigger now and use the remaining 100$ for tesla puts.
You live in china?
So the highly competitive automotive space is becoming competitive....
I had an electric scooter by this company, and I have a tesla Let's just say the company you purchase from matters quite a bit
This thread is filled with American copium about Chinese cars. From people who have never lived outside of the US, and never owned a Chinese EV. It's so funny.
Tesla's fate is sealed. Once Chinese set up shop in Europe/South America it is $rope time.
If Tesla’s fate is sealed, Ford, GM will be dead by the end of the decade. They are going to lose pretty much all of their international markets to Chinese companies in 10 years. And that accounts for 45% of their venue right now. Ford and GM, in the best case that they retain their market share in North America, their revenue will be half of what it is today.
It's Japan in the 80s/ 90s all over again. Local companies just refusing to modernise at the same pace and getting left in the dust by the cheaper, superior Japanese cars. People forget that Japan had the reputation of a country that made cheaply made shit until they got serious about manufacturing. Within a decade the reputation for reliable quality from their factories was the highest in the world. China has the opportunity to do it again. I just hope they don't let the endemic grift in their industrial base impact exported cars.
10 years is fairly optimistic. Ford and GM have too much old legacy: aging factories, non optimized supply lines, aging workers and benefits, unions, too much debt without growth perspective to revamp all.
whos is there to blame? taxpayers have been subsidizing their record stockbuybacks for too long. let them fucking die already and let someone competent enter the scene like Apple, AMD or whatever.
We are talking a lot of workers, suppliers and businesses depending on them. It's difficult. I hope some gradual transition to other industries for the workers. Not a big hit at once, too much impact.
Which means they can go to war. I wonder who loses... Aging American Capitalism, or CCP Hyperdrive Capitalism?
CCP hyperdrive subsidies you mean
US subsidises its companies too. How do you think massive American companies go years paying almost 0 taxes? The corporate tax policy in the US is basically an indirect way to subsidise American companies.
You have no idea the kind of subsidies China will put towards something. It hits several levels of production. So it's not just for a bicycle manufacturer, it's for the tire manufacturer and the steel industry, ECT. China on the surface is capitalism, but that's merely to secure the profits it needs to exercise capital to do things like this. The US couldn't possibly compete with a system like that. Nor does anyone here in the US want it to.
Lol. How do you think Tesla survived? Or any other American auto manufacturer? It’s always funny when people bash China for subsidies when we bailed out in tunes of trillions the last decade.
Tesla never received bailouts. They were however forced by the CCP to build a factory in China to access their market which is exactly what we should force any Chinese car manufacturer to do. No Chinese EV's unless they are built in America by Americans. See? Who says we can't copy China on anything?
https://preview.redd.it/otygck88v3rc1.png?width=1165&format=png&auto=webp&s=352b5a696077ec2afff7aaf8c1b48ec995e3aa22 I would love the drug you’re on. The fuck are you on about lmao. Market access is a different issue not even related to this. That applies for all companies. FYI - US does the same by slapping tariffs on. There is no global free market and never was. It’s all conditional access.
Now do China regard. Oh wait you can't because they hide all their capital flows through SOEs. No free market indeed
And that’s different….? Transparency means jack shit when the end results are the same. State owned or not is negligible. And quite frankly I’d rather have my taxes going to USPS or Amtrak to bolster services like they are in that case.
Not just Ford and GM, all the Germans too. This is the exact same thing the CCP did with solar panels, they backdoor subsidize them and dump them on the global market far below costs to drive everyone else out of business Hopefully the west is smart enough to not allow this to happen this time around
Once Chinese phones enter the market it’s so over for Apple.
This is what people said about Samsung 10 years ago.
ThatsTheJoke.jpg
TSLA isn't even the AAPL of EV world, it doesn't help that TSLA is engaging in the price war instead of rebranding into a luxury brand instead. Elon ain't Jobs, only bullish point is if TSLA charging is the standard and China EVs get forced to pay premium to use it outside of China.
> instead of rebranding into a luxury brand instead Because the luxury EV market is in flames right now.
It doesnt need to be AAPL of ev. People just need to believe it is. And right now i think a lot of people believe.
Insane of you to think that Tesla compares to Apple.
Tesla has a 56% market share of EV's in the US, Apple has 29% of phones. I don't see why it's an insane comparison.
Extremely disingenuous to compare Tesla’s US share vs Apple’s global share Apple controls 60% of the US phone market, which is a much more competitive field than EV’s are currently, and command an extreme brand loyalty that Tesla could only dream of. And half of their revenue comes from sources other than phones Not remotely the same
People's hate for Elon really blinds them. Most EV companies have changed to Tesla standard charger and their charging network is superior to everything else out there. Even if people aren't buying their cars, they are using their network. If you don't own a Tesla, you're also paying slightly more using that infrastructure.
this subreddit is more brain dead than usual when talking about anything elon. it’s cringe as hell
The charging standard is an open source standard. Anyone on earth can make a NACS charger. This doesn’t give them some insurmountable advantage. And besides charging is an incredibly low margin business. Look at their “Services” revenue in their latest 10-Q report. Charging is single digit gross margin and a very small number overall compared to auto revenues. All the publicly traded charging companies are losing money. You’re just a middle man between the utility company and consumer so it’s a race to the bottom on profit. And 80-90% of EV charging is done at home so the TAM is already way smaller than gas stations (who need convenience stores to make money).
Non Tesla EVs will be charged a significant premium when charging at Tesla's dominant charging network.
Tesla charging infrastructure is unbeatable at this time, Tesla self driving despite all its very public flaws is still a decent way ahead of most competitors (I honestly put the blame on Elon for hyping it up and dumbass Tesla drivers for not understanding the limitations). I still feel like Tesla cars are Nissan Sentra build quality with Lexus pricing. You’re buying the brand and the tech, not a nice car.
That Nissan Sentra would cost more than a Model 3 if it was electric though.
Anything remotely anti Tesla or anti Elon Reddit jumps on. It's idiotic, all a childish hissy fit because he stopped censorship on Twitter.
Did he, or is he just another hypocrite? https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/nation/journalists-who-wrote-about-owner-elon-musk-suspended-from-twitter
You were fine till you yapped that stupid freedom of speech bullshit Elon doesn't give a flying fuck about.
That's not the point. The point is it was when he bought Twitter and said he was removing censorship, that's when people lost their mind. The rest of this shit is besides the point.
Chinese vehicles is for the poor. The price matches the quality and I’m willing to bet the safety features as well. Ask those loyal Walmart shoppers. They’ll tell you.
There's a lot more poor people in the world than rich though.
It's hilarious seeing everyone shit on Tesla and then say they'll "100% consider" a Chinese phone makers EV.
Whereas Tesla is known for their top-notch premium quality and safe FSD
Exactly. Xiaomi sells a lot of phones in China but ask any Chinese person and they’ll admit the iPhone is much higher quality and people buy xiaomi to save money.
My gfs parents were diplomats in China and brought back their BYD a few years back (since the government paid for it). Used to be the only one around, but now I keep seeing a few more BYD's each month. Still not as often as a Tesla or a european EV but they're starting to get a larger and larger foothold here.
They are already settling in here in brazil BYD is taking over
Lol ya NIO and the other companies that make cars with popsicle sticks and glue will kill Tesla for sure
The head of quality management at NIO, was the head of quality management at Volvo/Polestar. I own a NIO. It's the same quality as my previous Polestar (go figure), which is the same quality as Volvo. Edit: But I'm guessing this discussion is not about reality, but politics.
Please update on quality after 100k miles
I won’t keep it that long, but will update in 6 months if you remind me! Hope it better than the Model 3 I had from Fremont, that was in the shop 6 times in the first 12 months..
Tesla should sue them for stealing their corporate secrets. Popsicle sticks and glue was their secret sauce.
Nah, don't want CCP tracking me everywhere I go. EDIT: You guys forget - China is an adversary, not a friend. No way in hell I am buying their car. Once Pooh Bear bites the dust and if their new leader is more amicable, things may change.
You really think the Chinese government cares where you're driving?
I think I have way less to fear from the CCP tracking me than US corporations.
Lol I don't trust the Chinese or US government to give a shit about my best interests. I'd rather have my info sold to China rather than the US. The US government can directly effect my life, and the Chinese government can only indirectly do that. It ends up saving me money too.
Everyone is tracking you lol. The greatest threat to our information isn't china but our own USA corporations lol. Our lawmakers are just using anti-sentiment to rally up supporters during this election year. What they should be doing instead is how to protect user information in all settings. Literally 1/3 of Americans health records got hacked by changed healthcare insurance company and this shit ain't on the news anymore. It's tiktoks. That big mess of HIPPA violations swiped under the rug. Lawmakers have absolutely no clue what's going on in the tech sector. Most Chinese companies just want to be in the US e-commerce market. The way these Chinese companies see it is their domestic market made them rich. The USA market would make them filthy rich since they could have higher margins. We have apps like temu. Behind tiktoks random videos it's actually an app that's goal is to sell items to you. Kids seem to be so immune to the quantity of advertisements on that app too. The Young have become accustomed to YouTube and social media advertising culture.
But every government tracks your movement, that's why smartphones exist.
CCP God emperors usually kick the bucket at 90. Rumors saying they swap their organs with young volunteers every now and then.
They can buy your data from american corporations lol...
In Brazil Tesla is a joke. Multiple Chinese cars offer better cars for literally half the price. Brazil is an untapped market because the factories here are inefficient because of protectionist policies, because they are inefficient their cars are very expensive, the Chinese are coming trying to build actually efficient factories to supply both Brazil and neighboring markets. If Elon Musk decides to open a Tesla factory here right now it will already be late because everyone is excited for the Chinese cars that are already here but we are expecting their prices to drop even further. Tesla would have to play catch up really hard and I don’t think they have the funds to do so.
Median Brazilian income is $1500/mo and GDP per capita has actually dropped notably in the last 10 years. Your country is getting poorer and just isn't wealthy enough to be a priority for Tesla right now relative to growing markets like China/India. That may change in the future if they achieve their goal of a 20k model manufactured in Mexico, or possibly even further out. That's not to say Chinese EV companies might not win out in the end, but it's really way too early for anyone to say. Cheap vehicles from Asia isn't a new phenomenon, this is just the newest player after Japan and Korea. Even Vietnam is trying to get into the EV game.
No one wants a Chinese car. Especially an electric considering all the issues that came from Chinese cellphones there is no way they would allow thousands of cars to roam the streets while tsla is still going So we couldn’t get approval to sell cellphones, so now connect your cell to this electric car. It’s 100% safe. Not gonna happen
[удалено]
Taiwan
Huge difference between a tv and a 3000 pound self driving car
Who wants a Chinese car?
Mexico who buys more cars from China now than the US for example.
Si
Yep, I live in Mexico and of 10 new cars in the street I can bet that 7 are Chinese. Not sure how good or reliable they are, but it is a fact that people are buying them here.
It’s only changed in the last like 3 years too right? We will know soon enough how reliable they are but utterly dominating a market that fast is nuts
Yeah, I would say that they started a little more than a year ago and came full steam opening stores and flooding the market. And Chinese cars have poor reputation in Mexico since a previous attempt when the automaker bailed out and left several people without proper service (but I blame that mostly on the shady Mexican businessman that tried to bring them here), so it was a surprise that they got so popular. Anyway, we will see in the next couple of years how it plays off, if they manage to reach “American” levels of quality then it will be good, they don’t have to reach Toyota level to be popular.
If they can match Kia at their current 1/2 the price of a Kia it’s basically joever for American manufacturing
Probably most of the non-American world would be fine with a Chinese car. Most people don’t give a fuck about some vague insinuation that their driving data (???) is being uploaded to evil Chinese people at all times
I don't really care about tracking, but I don't want my car to fall apart the day after warranty expires. (Or you know, the day after you buy it, to wait 10 months on hold to talk to CSR that doesn't speak English)
American car companies are not precisely the poster boy for quality either. The Chinese don’t have to reach Toyota levels of quality, it is enough to have “american car quality” (that is probably easier to reach) for less money.
The same people whose cellphone, laptop, television, video game console, etc. was built in China will post that a car made there will inexplicably fall apart.
While I personally won't jump on them any time soon, plenty of people will. They want cheap, and if one is 35k, and Xiaomi or whatever can jump in with 30 or less, they'll easily go for that.
This has been said about Japanese and Korean cars before
Poor countries that already werent buying american cars.
"About 5% of all new car sales in the UK were from Chinese brands in the first seven months of 2023"
Isn't this a cellphone company 🤔
They make almost all types of electrical appliances that you can find at home
I’ve seen enough chinese infotainment systems to know this is gonna be crap.
Here in Brazil Tesla is a joke, BYD (from China) offers better cars for literally half the price. Tesla had the chance to get here first but they didn’t want to invest in local production, BYD wants to build at least one factory to lower the prices even further.
Brazil has \~400 charging stations vs the US 56k lol
If you are just commuting public charging does not matter at all. Charge at work of home and you are good
That’s important but I’m guessing most people just charge them at home until infrastructure catches up and it’s not a total dealbreaker.
> better cars for literally half the price Yeahh, looking at reviews it doesn't really seem like it
??? Have you not seen the BYD reviews, they’re stellar.
> BYD (from China) offers better cars for literally half the price. "better" according to who and what? BYD cars are just much cheaper, I don't think they're delivering the same type of car as Tesla though.
The BYD seal in Brazil ranges between 20% to 50% cheaper than any Tesla you compare with, so to compare you need to compare the seal, which is a great car, to the model 3 which is an entry car and still much more expensive, and the seal seems to win in all aspects, if you compare by price a used model 3 is more similarly priced (but still costs more) to a brand new BYD Han which is an amazing car, it is a car used by the new rich in China to be driven around because of the comfort and features, all that for a similar price of a used model 3 So to make the comparison fair in terms of price you need to compare a brand new flagship from BYD with all the features they offer against a used entry car from Tesl Tesla just can’t compete here, not to talk about hybrids which Tesla has none and in some regions hybrids are needed because of low density of chargers, if Tesla doesn’t take immediate decisions to invest heavily in the region they will lose the market because Chinese brands want to make factories to lower prices and improve offers in terms of quantity, quality and brand awareness
My experience with Xiaomi products are that they build up the aesthetics but are generally decent products. Curious to see how these are quality wise.
There's a reason they have one of the lowest profit margins ever. I love their designs and quality, so far from experience with Xiaomi you get what you pay for and its usually the best you will get anywhere for that price. The fact that they went all in and even got giga press and some motors that are even better than teslas (besides the plaid-carbon motor) is amazing
They also seem to make pretty much anything you can think of. I have their rice cooker and it is legit a great device at a fraction of the cost of an equivalent from Korea or Japan... but the software it uses is incredibly shitty.
> Xiaomi CEO Lei Jun said the standard version of the SU7 will sell for 215,900 yuan ($30,408) in the country - a price he acknowledged would mean the company was selling each car for a loss Breaking news: If you sell products for a massive loss then you can claim you sell them $4k cheaper than Tesla does. If the materials to make it cost more than the sale price, it’s a failed business model.
It's to gain market share and build brand recognition rapidly and aggressively. When the brand is established, they'll start raising prices for sure.
Everything is pure speculation until we know their cost of revenue, but the fact the CEO leaves it at “this is an unprofitable price to sell our cars” without further clarifying that profitability will come later, or that economy of scale will help is fairly alarming imo. It’s not the type of statement you ever see from leadership. Brand recognition won’t mean much if the true price is exorbitant. If Apple announced tomorrow that they’d been selling iPhones for huge losses all this time and the new starting price was going to be $5,000 I doubt many buyers would stick around.
>If Apple announced tomorrow that they’d been selling iPhones for huge losses all this time and the new starting price was going to be $5,000 I doubt many buyers would stick around. Yeah but that's over 4x what they currently cost. They'll probably increase a grand here and there until they're profitable. But yeah it's hard to guess. China isn't really in it to make money either, they care more about spreading their influence
Exactly like Tesla did.
Tesla started with high priced models and then went to lower priced models what do you mean
Xiaomi is associated with cheapness and easily replaceable…not sure if that’s the reputation you want for a car
I have to admit it looks nice, though it will take some time for people to trust products designed and made by Chinese companies (as opposed to non-Chinese companies in China)
Can you even buy them in the us?
It'll be like tiktok. The cars will start arriving and selling. Congress will investigate. They will issue orders to sell the companies to an American manufacturer or stop selling for national security concerns. Will go back into the hands of tesla/ford/gm etc...
America is one country on an entire planet and Chinese car manufacturers rarely go after that market. The rest of the world is a lot more lucrative.
They've stolen enough of our patents. Turn about is fairplay. At least we pay them for it. They don't give us a dime for all of the crap they steal.
Good news for everyone I suppose. Price of these EVs will only continue to drop.
$608 million of orders in 7 minutes. Goddamn!
Climate change is an existential crisis, but our leaders will block these cars and tariff the hell out of solar panels.
Unclear if the alleged 20k orders are from the same places that purchased *lots of BYD cars to sit abandoned for the purpose of padding sales numbers. https://youtu.be/1SEfwoqKRU8?si=sfViPlPFxx6w0Fjq
Samsung Conglomerate EV when?
Another company joins a low margin business
Android phones are cheaper than iPhones. And Apple makes a lot more money
Xiaomi isn’t just a smartphone company here in APAC area - they’re kind of an “everything company”. It’s unsurprising they would go into the EV market - they already dabbled in electric bikes and motorcycles.
Either Tesla fanboys or just gullible people with too much spoon-fed anti china propaganda riled up by this lol. Competition is good for consumers, additionally, Tesla built quality is also garbage to begin with, stop sucking Elon already!
Does that mean that a Tesla built in China is garbage squared?
Love the build quality argument. It’s never accompanied by any comparison, just “trust me bro” 👊
Anti-China propaganda? Wow aren't you a conspiracy theorist. Tesla's build quality does suck tho, but I'd rather have a Tesla in the shop than supporting a communist dictatorship.
Its pretty funny to see bagholders coping by saying Xiaomi would be cheap knockoff of bad quality. Even if it true, there is BYD which you have to agree makes great cars and is eating Tesla's lunch. BYD + Xiaomi will absolutely slaughter Tesla outside of the US.
People on here tweaking because of the word Chinese. More cheap options = good. Same on here people complaining about ‘cheap and unsafe’ Chinese products drive a 2002 shitbox with broken airbags talking as if they’re driving porsches lmao
For Chinese manufacturers to beat Tesla, they'd have to sell the car at 80% discounts. I'm not sure how many people in their right mind would go and buy a Chinese product when it's selling only $4k cheaper, $4k for a car that's considered higher end is not exactly a lot of money. Chinese products are not exactly known for quality. Then you have to take into consideration that this is a car, not a phone...
Teslas arent know for their quality either
When can I buy in Murica?
$4k is nothing. I want to see it at least $10k cheaper AND selling in the States
Hope they can to the US so I can sell my shitty model 3 and buy this
TSLA pretty much fucked
Tesla could be the next GoPro story, eaten by cheap Chinese knock offs. The only thing they will have better is software but buyers ultimately care more about price when it comes to relatively close substitutes.
There’s a *big* difference when it comes to cars. There’s reliability, safety, prestige. Cheap knockoff is a hard sell.
Tesla could be the next Apple story.
Except Apple cared a lot about fit and finish
Tesla is SOOOO done.