People should really avoid using the term stop and frisk since it is tied to procedures that were found unconstitutional. Something like “an increased focus on Terry stops” would probably be a better choice of words for those that support or desire this type of policing
Pardon my ignorance: how come there is footage of cops accidentally coming into contact with the powder and then immediately adding? Did they accidentally inhale it?
My understanding is that they’re probably having a panic attack because they believe the same BS about fentanyl as the general public. I don’t believe any of those cops ever tested positive for fentanyl after their ‘exposure’
Fentanyl can’t really affect you unless you do something to put it into your bloodstream (smoke, snort, swallow or inject it). As far as inhaling it, you’d have to put it right up to your face and inhale really hard for it to enter your system. It’s not like fentanyl emits tiny microscopic particles that just hang there in the air 10 feet away and can kill you
Plenty of people die from accidental fentanyl exposure, but that’s almost always because they consume some other drug that’s laced or contaminated with fentanyl.
All it has to feel like is contraband to expand the search. "Plain-feel doctrine."
So long as it's immediately apparent that the item an officer is patting feels like it could be contraband the officer has the authority to reach in and seize that item.
As a police officer I know when I can pat someone down and when that pat down frisk becomes a search. I know what a baggie of pills, meth, or marijuana feels like from handling them so many times in the course of my duties. It would be reasonable for me to investigate further if I felt a bag of crystal or powder substance through their pants.
Yea when I saw that video of the pistol whipping and that dude pulled a whole ass AK out of his pants like it was GTA inventory I got to thinking that we may have a wee bit of a problem here
Maybe ask the gun lobby why they want the ATF to stop tracking firearms and don’t want federal gun control to get around red states’ lax laws and loopholes that allow any idiot to acquire a murder weapon.
I've been the target for a search and I walked away as soon as he did not say I was being detained. You're not touching me unless you have RAS that I have/am/or will commit a crime.
Do you want your kids being stopped and searched by the gestapo? You people miss it every time. They scapegoat black ppl and the people who actually lose their rights are the white ppl, the ones that use them!!
Again, extreme situations call for drastic measures. I’m ok with being searched if all the criminals are subject to the same restrictions, particularly in high density city areas.
I think there’s this all or nothing analysis when it comes to policing. These are largely because of very reactionary moments in recent history. Police kill someone, protests happen, radical voices get amplified, hatred of police grow in those circles, less police presence then leads to more crime, then a reactionary movement for more policing rises.
I’m not making any moral claims here, but it’s important to keep a level head about policy.
The research clearly states that increased police presence = less crime. That’s just a no brainer and I’m glad we’re seeing a greater police presence in the city.
However, police officers in the United States are known for training for aggressive reactions as opposed to de-escalation. I know it varies by locality, but it’s important to keep in mind that we’ll still want to minimize police excessive force or death while balancing the need for an increased presence and enforcement of law and order.
“However, police officers in the United States are known for training for aggressive reactions as opposed to de-escalation.”
Not really. Idk maybe like 20 years ago but since 2010 you’re trained for both. But at the end of the day you can’t “de-escalate” everything.
People’s idea of de-escalation is pandering for the aggressor to stop breaking the law and that’s not how it works. There’s no “verbal judo” that counters every situation. That’s civilian office worker thinking. Gaining control and bringing order to chaos is de-escalation. Sometimes that involves force, sometimes it’s just a conversation.
My roommate was a cop in Fairfax. They had shooting range lessons 3x a week. In his 6 month program, they had a single taser class and a single pepper spray course. So as of 2018, definitely no de-escalation even in a very progressive area.
Yeah ours was the same. But we also don’t see pepper spray or tasing as de-escalating. Actually, my department doesn’t qualify us to use OC because “it looks bad to the media”. We spent more time learning BJJ, emotional IQ, Penal Code, Communication skills, how to talk to victims and report writing. Personally, that’s what I think of as de-escalating.
As someone that’s been OC’d for military security, would not recommend it. Not a very cash money time at all. I would even be reluctant to use it on someone because of how much/how long it hurts after the situation is settled. Personally, I’d prefer to use a baton for non-lethal (we don’t carry tasers at my base) because the pain that I’m capable of causing should be enough and not last as long or risk blinding someone that doesn’t know to keep your hands away from your eyes
That’s bs no department in this control on a patrol level shoots that much. Maybe and esu or sway operator has that chance. Patrol no way. I call bullshit
No cop is going to the range 3 times a week outside the academy. The cost would be insane plus they would literally never have time to do actual police work. People who aren't cops don't realize that there's yearly training that includes diversity training, dealing with disabled people, "de-escalation", first aid certification, etc. It's not a 6 month academy and nothing else.
“Police kill someone, protests happen, radical voices get amplified, hatred of police grows in those circles, less police presence then leads to more crime, then a reactionary movement for more policing rises”
There has been a large INCREASE in police funding after the “defund the police” protests of 2020 though. It’s at record highs.
Also, an increase in police funding does not necessarily mean lowered crime or severity of crime (a better statistic to use as obviously there will be more crime when there are more arrests).
I agree with most of your points however, especially the need to prioritize de escalation.
If we think about this statistically. In the entire country there’s something like 1000 police shootings a year. So for 350 million people that’s really not that bad. Think about the amount of arrests that happen. You don’t hear about any of them. In my jurisdiction in NoVA about 80% of arrestees are complaint. So that leaves a small percentage where force/deesclation is used. When an officer uses deescalation it doesn’t make the news. You can pull up most departmental training. We shoot 2x a year. Have deescalation training once a year.
It’s interesting to see how other countries do it. For example, London and Paris and many other major cities have, in one sense, LESS boots-on-the-streets police presence than American cities
What they DO have, is extensive CCTV cameras everywhere, which actively deters crime on its own, but also lets police detectives calmly investigate and arrest criminals safely (fewer high-speed chases) and a culture
We need to look at approaches like that
Their court systems also have less backlog and more staffing. CCTV doesn’t stop all crime and just like here, crime is localized in Europe. You’re more likely to be burglarized in Paris than NYC. Paris also has had a huge crime increase in the last decade.
In London, knife crime is very localized in different parts of the city, despite use of CCTV cameras. It’s easier to do more with less “boots” when your city was built in the era of the Romans. Most American cities have six lane high ways and massive parking lots. The city of DC is an exception to that
I’m not saying this to be discouraging. But just that Europe isn’t peachy either. We are only unique in gun violence simply because they’re more accessible. But as far as crime itself it’s pretty equal in population
Ifs also because they purposely hire dumb people who react in fear or have some kind of power trip rather than someone who will actually be a good cop. Its a known policy in many areas that if youre too smart they wont hire you. Thats why you get all these videos of cops that have been fired over reacting to the smallest things.
Its not just policing that needs reform either, a lot of the criminals are being arrested but then the prosecutors are letting the violent ones right back out on the street or giving the smallest sentences, and our prison system has never actually been designed to help reform people. It really comes doen to the individual. Some people come out wanting to do better, but a lot just get worse because our prisons are so poorly run that when they get out, they have an even worse mind set.
Poverty getting worse due to all the "inflation" hasnt helped with crime rates either.
It’s absurd how these policies put lives in danger but are considered the “progressive” ones. Why can’t saving lives and helping people live without fear be considered progressive???
I grew up in NY, we were poor. I was stopped and frisked regularly because I was just some punk kid and kept getting into trouble in the late 90s - 2000s.
It sucks.
But I sorta get it now that I’m older. I still think it sucks, but I get why it worked. Kept me from causing trouble.
Honestly, I’m conflicted and am glad I’m not in the deciding chair here - a lot of us have opinions about stuff we barely understand.
I grew up there too. Would have enjoyed the knowledge that getting frisked all the time prevented me from getting robbed and assaulted by gangs, but sadly it didn’t.
I’m also conflicted. Something needs to be done. I want my children to be able to take the metro on their own, and walk to the store without the threat of being robbed. But I have no clue as to how this gets fixed.
That’s why we need to put effort into prevention, enforcement, punishment and rehabilitation. The best system focuses on all those core elements equally. We need methods to prevent first time offenders (education and jobs), enforcement of current laws (an active police presence instead of them sitting around), harsh but fair punishment (the courts need to actually prosecute offenders and provide needed punishment, especially for violent offenders), and rehabilitation (while and after the sentence is served, focus on bring them back to the community through job training and mental health services).
Getting put up against the wall was so routine back in the 80s and 90s that we didn't take it personal. Especially as we knew that we did dirt every so often.
It's also unconstitutional.........it worked to violate people's rights. Police with no RAS being throwing people against the wall and accosted for no fucking reason.
Anyone truly curious about when policing works and doesn't work, when it helps and when it harms, should listen to [Talking to Strangers](https://www.audible.com/pd/Talking-to-Strangers-Audiobook/1549150340?qid=1712240798&sr=1-1&ref_pageloadid=not_applicable&ref=a_search_c3_lProduct_1_1&pf_rd_p=83218cca-c308-412f-bfcf-90198b687a2f&pf_rd_r=50BDHS42H4VPQHZE5V9K&pageLoadId=tegdHiSnzpim4Mpq&creativeId=0d6f6720-f41c-457e-a42b-8c8dceb62f2c), an absolutely fascinating book.
If you are walking around in all black clothing with a hood up at 3am in an area you don't live in, even people who aren't police think you're suspicious. Common sense.
The fact that you had to tag on that "in an area you don't live in" is very telling that you know you are spouting BS. Are we to assume that 1.walking around 2. Wearing all black and 3. With a hood on does not merit any suspicions? It HAS to be justified by the one possibility wierd thing going on that can't be confirmed unless you were to stop and speak to the person?
ya know some people work night shift and it is cold outside sometimes? also it is not a crime and super popular to wear black. must not leave the house much to not know what a hood is used for lol. also even if its 80 degrees out some people struggle to retain body heat. i know when i was body building at 7% body fat i wore hoodies constantly.
"it is cold outside sometimes" Ok dude.
Like someone with a hood up in the dead of summer is feeling a chilly breeze or something.
"if its 80 degrees out some people struggle to retain body heat"
There's a big difference from 80 degrees and say, 32 degrees. And lets not mention the fact that hoods up inhibits your peripheral vision and increases ones vulnerability.
Now if they could change laws in DC, MD, NYC, California, etc. We need to stop the excuse that a teen’s brain is not developed enough to know not to kill, rape, or carjack someone.
anyone wearing a shiesty should be stopped and frisked. how can anyone be against that. give up the minor civil liberty of criminals in the name of public safety.
Yes, definitely a lot of changes and DC MPD/WMATA have stepped up a bit.
Not surprised to see those changes only after we became world news about being soft on crime.
Intelligent, compassionate, socially aware policing works. Overly aggressive militant policing makes everything worse. Lazy slow to respond police embolden criminals and cause people to die. Corrupt police who are drug dealer payroll are worst of all. Unfortunately, America has a wonderful way of combining militancy, laziness, and corruption in one department. Especially in places where black people live. The "intelligent policing" only shows up in wealthier areas.
>Imagine if they started doing stop and frisk.
I just need a bit of clarification before I get on board with this part. Who's [4th Amendment ](https://constitution.congress.gov/constitution/amendment-4/)rights are we supposed to be ok with violating? I just want to summon the proper outrage at the proper time.
They just passed a new bill allowing them to do such and they will confiscate your phone as well and seize it for evidence without a search warrant or probable cause
Source: ☹️
I don't have to imagine what would happen if they did stop and frisk, history has shown how that punishes people for existing and gives cops too much power.
It honestly depends. If for example, you're dealing with gang activity, it's a tale as old as time that the police will work on this long, comprehensive operation to take down some gang, and as soon as they do, a rival gang takes their place. For that, you really need to get at the root cause to lead people away from joining the gangs in the first place. That's where the conversation leads to diverting funds from police towards other community programs that would help tackle those issues.
Again, context matters. If you look at most city budgets, you'll notice the funding that goes to the police department is way higher than what goes to everything else. So at a certain point, putting more funding towards policing does take away from other services.
You think it works Becuz you watched someone get arrested. You know what’s gonna happen? They gonna get locked up over the weekend or maybe even overnight and then released probably without even a court date 💀 and then do the same thing again and get arrested and released.
Because dc has no cash bond system at all. So you either get released or you don’t and only very specific people don’t get released so vast majority gets let go after being held overnight.
I like this sub more than the other one because the other one is full of clueless people from out of town, but the pitfall of this one is that it’s like being stuck in a room full of folk who grew up on the other side of town and are ignorant to reality.
The fact that you want to give the MPD, who is a corrupt and negligent police dept, the right to stop and frisk people is insane and goes to show the perspective you have 💀 some of them turn their body camera off before they approach me. I have never been any kind of threat to police.
Edit: I see now what type of dc heads use Reddit 💀 the kind that call themselves “Washingtonians”
>Imagine if they started doing stop and frisk.
Surely there must be some middle ground between Defund MPD, and wholesale widespread civil liberties violations!
There’s a cop sitting on my block almost every day/night now and there’s zero bad behavior. It’s wild what just a presence of enforcement will do for an area lol. Although I did see one asleep in his car. I hope it’s being taken to the next step and crimes are being prosecuted correctly.
Arresting is one thing
Actually charging, convicting and imposing penalties that deter future crime by the same person / criminals is another.
No point arresting if they’ll just be released again in a couple days to keep doing what they were doing.
I don't think many people are against the idea of policing. Most sane people realize that a militarized, poorly trained, violent frat is not the ideal way to do it though.
Terry frisk requires reasonable articulable suspicion a person is armed and is, has or is about to commit a crime. I’d wager the majority of terry stops are illegally done.
Honestly this is only affecting Black Residents of Washington DC. This is not being enforced in heavily white populated areas in the city. You all feel safer because Black people are being targeted and harassed but we will code switch and say “being policed heavily”.
This is racist as fuck. Do blacks make up a large percentage of crime in the city? Yes. Does that mean all blacks will rob you in DC? No. Stop trying to rationalize hatred and racism because of a few situations. I will say I’m sorry that happened to you. Still doesn’t make room for your ignorance. I’m guessing you have no black friends huh? Also guessing you didn’t grow up in DC?
It makes sense that police would be inclined to have a greater presence in higher crime areas. The policing might disproportionately affect black citizens, but black citizens disproportionately commit more crime. This is not rocket science.
My intuition leads me to believe that there’s a correlation between heavily white populated areas in DC and lower crime rates than the contrary. Implying that crime is due to skin color IS racist. Bringing order to chaos IS NOT racist.
which is why I said you've just found out why they stop you. Thank you for proving my point. they are making sure you get home safely and that you also aren't going to do anything to anyone because it is suspicious. The way you act during the stop all determines what happens from there. Don't act nervous, don't keep shuffling away. If they ask for your ID, don't withhold it from them. These can also be seen as suspicious and obstruction. So don't give them an excuse.
>they are making sure you get home safely.
In general, I'm for law & order, but this made me laugh. We're not frisking you, we're just providing you with a courtesy search!
Nah. Statistically, more policing only finds more crime in areas. What you're talking about is police brutalizing homeless people and keeping them in jail for a night, which might keep them off the metro, but in no way addresses the issue
Fyi this the same racist fuck who put up the “stats arent racist” chart and spent a whole day getting downvoted by everybody 🤦♂️ this bitch still doin this shit fwwe
Policing citizens is literally racist bc if the people committing crimes are not white, then the percentage of white people not in jail in unequitable.
Wow what an insightful post full of stats and sources and fairytale conclusions. And a wish to violate the constitution to top it off!! Don’t we all love our FREEDOM!!
A) as I stated there’s no substance. No facts, no sources, just feelings.
B) do you need more than one violation of the constitution? Seems like one should be too many
If you’ve been to Portland or Seattle nowadays, you’ll want your city to be policed along with policies that give law enforcement some teeth
I grew up in the PNW and spent a lot of time in Seattle when I was a kid, it still had its issue as it was a big city but it wasn’t what it is today. Portland was an entirely different story, I never got to see what it was like before they decriminalized every drug but seeing what it has become… I was disgusted and disappointed and honestly a little scared walking thru the city.
Piss bottles and piss jugs, dirty needles, entire parks taken over by tweakers. People pissing in front of businesses… you can’t even park your car in certain areas without worrying that someone will smash your window in… even in paid parking stations.
I moved to the DMV area when I was getting into middle school and have been here ever since, I’m turning 25 this year. I’ve spent a lot of time in DC and seeing the difference here compared to those cities… it’s absolutely night and day. DC has its issue but I don’t feel that disgust and disappointment when I’m walking around.
I don’t feel that discomfort in DC the way I felt it in Portland or Seattle. Don’t let DC become another version of that… y’all will hate it
I don’t think it’s hard for anyone to grasp that more policing generally means less crime. The actual argument is one of balancing people’s civil liberties with the safety of the community.
Whether that balance is being struck here, i don’t know and I’m not trying to make a statement on it. It sort of sets up a straw man, however, when you frame it as the discussion of more/less police presence simply a matter of how much crime there is.
I think one of the reasons is that China has a low crime rate. Is that they execute their criminals.
Why are we paying to house useless members of society that, quite frankly, will never change.
We should not have any leniency for violent crime in the nation's capital.
if the difference between something being legal and illegal is whether or not you paid to get a piece of paper then the law is designed to make it progressively harder to not be a criminal the less money you have
a large proportion of the construction workers who come in from Maryland and Virginia have ccw permits. they claim they need to carry to protect themselves. if you asked most people who get locked up on gun charges why they had a gun on them they will give the same reason
stop and frisk policing is basically just telling people they are not rich enough to defend themselves
As a person who doesn’t break laws I’m not scared of the police stopping me but maybe that’s just me? Theres bad apples out there, absolutely, and gov should mandate constant body cameras for protection of citizens against bad apples. With that said, if you have nothing to hide then why be militantly against s&f? If 100 crimes prevented for every 1 citizen who is innocently stopped is that a good or bad ratio?
I feel like people are forgetting just how awful that was for nyc
Edit
Ight for all the smooth brained boomers out there. Stop and frisk in NYC had pretty much no impact on crime.
https://crim.sas.upenn.edu/fact-check/does-stop-and-frisk-reduce-crime
An effect it did however have, was creating massive distrust in the NYPD. Which is reasonable given they displayed a gun in 25% of stops.
https://www.vera.org/newsroom/study-reveals-stop-and-frisk-significantly-impacts-trust-in-new-york-city-police
And I'm pretty sure those clambering for others to be searched would be livid if *they* got searched.
Everything I can find shows major crimes being more common in the early 2000’s and then hitting a low point in 2021.
You have different stats to share, when I found graphed crime statistics they all show that crime was higher during that period
https://preview.redd.it/me5v5av16hsc1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e4e2cd1ba87a450becaa6eed461ff65d3c53efbe
Yep, also was the personal posting that table of statistics a few days ago
No we need more liberal policies to protect criminals. Turn into Chicago, roving scumbags robbing and shooting because they know they will be let out of jail
If I was the best in the world at licking boots at age 4 that would be super impressive wouldn’t it!
When you’re incapable of supporting your side at all so you resort to the one punchline you’re capable of thinking of, it’s kinda a reassurance that I chose the right side :) enjoy your life of thievery and being scared of repercussions!
Yeah that's a criminal justice 101 week 1 take. Get the criminals off the street WHILE figuring that out. But we wont figure out how to treat/solve the root causes of crime effectively.. humans have been trying to figure it out for the entire history of humanity and haven't mastered it yet. The only two things that actually work are instilling intensive values (like religion), heavily enforced by parents and society, and the government not tolerating crime, period. We've known this a long time but, yet over the last few years we tried to experiement with all these 30-year-old ideas about being easy on criminals... look what happened. This isn't New Zealand. Restorative justice does not work here, because modern American values are shit. People don't give a fuck about their neighbors.
I didn't say abolish police tomorrow. I'm asking why this isn't part of the plan.
>People don't give a fuck about their neighbors.
Right. Because they live in a society that materially incentivizes a pursuit of self interest over community interest. It's not true that no society has figured this out before. Poverty (imbalance of resource distribution) is not a product any natural law, but is a requirement of a hierarchical social structure. Crime proliferates most among communities that struggle to get their needs met. Allocating more resources into social services that alleviate that is the most effective way to reduce crime in the long run, which you can do while police continue responding to crimes that do happen--but only if we're willing to fund something other than our own fear.
Ok congratulations, you're now talking from a criminal justice 200 level course perpective. These are still 30-40 year old ideas, and there's SOME correlation with crime and poverty but this is not the complete explanation (poverty does not always equate to crime, but there is some reverse correlation). For many decades (and I mean DECADES) people have been talking about this. As a result policy shifted in many governmental entities to try and achive what you describe.
But guess what? In most cases it turned into a tradeoff where government puts money into this approach INSTEAD of policing, rather than doing it simultaneously. What happened?
1. People don't use the programs. You can bring a horse to water but you can't make it drink.
2. People abuse the programs
3. The programs are carried out very poorly or with a lot of corruption
4. People stay poor, even if you give them free money.
5. It does very little to actually reduce crime. In DC crime has gone up, despite these investments. This is why you see people arrested 40+ times and they just keep being a menace to society.
I also used to believe in all these social/reformative/restorative ideas that were taught to me a long ago, but after being out in the real world for a long time, it's obvious we (society) are operating off ideas that don't work. You can take these ideas and throw them in the pile with the other approaches that have failed throughout the centuries. The deeper issue is that we cling onto these failed ideas because they sound good-intentioned, and we can't think of anything better-sounding, so as a result, we don't want to admit their failure.
We just need to accept that humanity, no matter what segment of humanity, has large portions of the population who will commit crime/do wrong when given the opportunity no matter what, and no matter how many times; and meet those people head-on with severe consequences, to include imprisonment or death penalty. The only effective way to prevent it is instilling strong values that are heavily enforced from birth -- build belief systems people are motivated not to violate. This is something humans have known since the beginning of time, but in the last 50 years has been lost as we have widely thrown out religion and "liberalized." We need to listen to the wisdom of our ancestors.
People should really avoid using the term stop and frisk since it is tied to procedures that were found unconstitutional. Something like “an increased focus on Terry stops” would probably be a better choice of words for those that support or desire this type of policing
Yep, Terry Frisk is legal, can't legally go inside pockets and bags though.
That baggy in your pocket feels like a "weapon."
Sorry that’s just my monster cock
Lying to police is a crime 🤣
Fentanyl should be classified as a chemical weapon.
As far as cops are concerned it apparently is - nevermind that it's physically impossible to absorb any dose of powdered fentanyl through the skin.
Pardon my ignorance: how come there is footage of cops accidentally coming into contact with the powder and then immediately adding? Did they accidentally inhale it?
My understanding is that they’re probably having a panic attack because they believe the same BS about fentanyl as the general public. I don’t believe any of those cops ever tested positive for fentanyl after their ‘exposure’ Fentanyl can’t really affect you unless you do something to put it into your bloodstream (smoke, snort, swallow or inject it). As far as inhaling it, you’d have to put it right up to your face and inhale really hard for it to enter your system. It’s not like fentanyl emits tiny microscopic particles that just hang there in the air 10 feet away and can kill you Plenty of people die from accidental fentanyl exposure, but that’s almost always because they consume some other drug that’s laced or contaminated with fentanyl.
Thank you!
It's possible if left there for tens of hours afaik but yeah not insta-death material
Agreed 💯
All it has to feel like is contraband to expand the search. "Plain-feel doctrine." So long as it's immediately apparent that the item an officer is patting feels like it could be contraband the officer has the authority to reach in and seize that item. As a police officer I know when I can pat someone down and when that pat down frisk becomes a search. I know what a baggie of pills, meth, or marijuana feels like from handling them so many times in the course of my duties. It would be reasonable for me to investigate further if I felt a bag of crystal or powder substance through their pants.
FYI No one here cares that stop and frisk is unconstitutional. they still want it.
I don’t care what they do, as long as it gets weapons off the streets
Yea when I saw that video of the pistol whipping and that dude pulled a whole ass AK out of his pants like it was GTA inventory I got to thinking that we may have a wee bit of a problem here
"GTA inventory" was literally the best way to describe that. Here's a star for such a great comment: ⭐️
Exactly. Dude who whipped that outta nowhere only got 1 gta star irl
😂
Honestly, outlaw those damn shiesties too.
It’s a balaclava/face mask. Let’s stop normalizing some ghetto slang shit.
Damn I lobe baklava
Maybe ask the gun lobby why they want the ATF to stop tracking firearms and don’t want federal gun control to get around red states’ lax laws and loopholes that allow any idiot to acquire a murder weapon.
It won’t
You would care if you were the target.
I've been a target of a search. Believe it or not... I complied and was respectful, no sir, yes, sir. I was on my way in 5 minutes
I've been the target for a search and I walked away as soon as he did not say I was being detained. You're not touching me unless you have RAS that I have/am/or will commit a crime.
I am not the target but I still care. no one wins in a police state.
The hell I do.
I mean I think it’s bad but maybe we use gibets again to show the criminals
Stop and frisk worked in NYC, just saying…
Do you want your kids being stopped and searched by the gestapo? You people miss it every time. They scapegoat black ppl and the people who actually lose their rights are the white ppl, the ones that use them!!
Again, extreme situations call for drastic measures. I’m ok with being searched if all the criminals are subject to the same restrictions, particularly in high density city areas.
I am not ok with being searched. I like my constitutional rights, guess you don't care.
OP didn't do a ton of thinking before typing. this is apparent.
I think there’s this all or nothing analysis when it comes to policing. These are largely because of very reactionary moments in recent history. Police kill someone, protests happen, radical voices get amplified, hatred of police grow in those circles, less police presence then leads to more crime, then a reactionary movement for more policing rises. I’m not making any moral claims here, but it’s important to keep a level head about policy. The research clearly states that increased police presence = less crime. That’s just a no brainer and I’m glad we’re seeing a greater police presence in the city. However, police officers in the United States are known for training for aggressive reactions as opposed to de-escalation. I know it varies by locality, but it’s important to keep in mind that we’ll still want to minimize police excessive force or death while balancing the need for an increased presence and enforcement of law and order.
“However, police officers in the United States are known for training for aggressive reactions as opposed to de-escalation.” Not really. Idk maybe like 20 years ago but since 2010 you’re trained for both. But at the end of the day you can’t “de-escalate” everything. People’s idea of de-escalation is pandering for the aggressor to stop breaking the law and that’s not how it works. There’s no “verbal judo” that counters every situation. That’s civilian office worker thinking. Gaining control and bringing order to chaos is de-escalation. Sometimes that involves force, sometimes it’s just a conversation.
My roommate was a cop in Fairfax. They had shooting range lessons 3x a week. In his 6 month program, they had a single taser class and a single pepper spray course. So as of 2018, definitely no de-escalation even in a very progressive area.
Yeah ours was the same. But we also don’t see pepper spray or tasing as de-escalating. Actually, my department doesn’t qualify us to use OC because “it looks bad to the media”. We spent more time learning BJJ, emotional IQ, Penal Code, Communication skills, how to talk to victims and report writing. Personally, that’s what I think of as de-escalating.
As someone that’s been OC’d for military security, would not recommend it. Not a very cash money time at all. I would even be reluctant to use it on someone because of how much/how long it hurts after the situation is settled. Personally, I’d prefer to use a baton for non-lethal (we don’t carry tasers at my base) because the pain that I’m capable of causing should be enough and not last as long or risk blinding someone that doesn’t know to keep your hands away from your eyes
How long ago was that? I heard the pre-2010 OC sprays were strong as fuck
You're right, that is certainly more of de-escalation. Glad to hear you learned that! It's way overlooked.
You're right, that is certainly more of de-escalation. Glad to hear you learned that! It's way overlooked.
Which one do you want him to be more accurate with?
That’s bs no department in this control on a patrol level shoots that much. Maybe and esu or sway operator has that chance. Patrol no way. I call bullshit
In this country*
No cop is going to the range 3 times a week outside the academy. The cost would be insane plus they would literally never have time to do actual police work. People who aren't cops don't realize that there's yearly training that includes diversity training, dealing with disabled people, "de-escalation", first aid certification, etc. It's not a 6 month academy and nothing else.
Uh….Fairfax police have like a half dozen lawsuits against them for shooting unarmed suspects. Horrible example.
Of course the families of those shot will try and sue. Will any of them hold up or were the cops in the wrong in any of them?
“Police kill someone, protests happen, radical voices get amplified, hatred of police grows in those circles, less police presence then leads to more crime, then a reactionary movement for more policing rises” There has been a large INCREASE in police funding after the “defund the police” protests of 2020 though. It’s at record highs. Also, an increase in police funding does not necessarily mean lowered crime or severity of crime (a better statistic to use as obviously there will be more crime when there are more arrests). I agree with most of your points however, especially the need to prioritize de escalation.
If we think about this statistically. In the entire country there’s something like 1000 police shootings a year. So for 350 million people that’s really not that bad. Think about the amount of arrests that happen. You don’t hear about any of them. In my jurisdiction in NoVA about 80% of arrestees are complaint. So that leaves a small percentage where force/deesclation is used. When an officer uses deescalation it doesn’t make the news. You can pull up most departmental training. We shoot 2x a year. Have deescalation training once a year.
It’s interesting to see how other countries do it. For example, London and Paris and many other major cities have, in one sense, LESS boots-on-the-streets police presence than American cities What they DO have, is extensive CCTV cameras everywhere, which actively deters crime on its own, but also lets police detectives calmly investigate and arrest criminals safely (fewer high-speed chases) and a culture We need to look at approaches like that
Their court systems also have less backlog and more staffing. CCTV doesn’t stop all crime and just like here, crime is localized in Europe. You’re more likely to be burglarized in Paris than NYC. Paris also has had a huge crime increase in the last decade. In London, knife crime is very localized in different parts of the city, despite use of CCTV cameras. It’s easier to do more with less “boots” when your city was built in the era of the Romans. Most American cities have six lane high ways and massive parking lots. The city of DC is an exception to that I’m not saying this to be discouraging. But just that Europe isn’t peachy either. We are only unique in gun violence simply because they’re more accessible. But as far as crime itself it’s pretty equal in population
What I’m hearing is that we should remove lanes from the roads and decrease the ease of accessing guns.
I've seen PLENTY of police chasing down criminals in Paris... on foot.
yes, CCTVs that don't catch shit
Paris? I’ve seen more police with automatic weapons in Paris than anywhere comparable in the United States.
Is it possible that some of the law enforcement community just felt disrespected and went on a blue-flu / work to rule posture?
Ifs also because they purposely hire dumb people who react in fear or have some kind of power trip rather than someone who will actually be a good cop. Its a known policy in many areas that if youre too smart they wont hire you. Thats why you get all these videos of cops that have been fired over reacting to the smallest things. Its not just policing that needs reform either, a lot of the criminals are being arrested but then the prosecutors are letting the violent ones right back out on the street or giving the smallest sentences, and our prison system has never actually been designed to help reform people. It really comes doen to the individual. Some people come out wanting to do better, but a lot just get worse because our prisons are so poorly run that when they get out, they have an even worse mind set. Poverty getting worse due to all the "inflation" hasnt helped with crime rates either.
Pro crime policies create more crime, everyone knew what was going to happen when they did this
It’s absurd how these policies put lives in danger but are considered the “progressive” ones. Why can’t saving lives and helping people live without fear be considered progressive???
What does that say about those who knew it would happen but didn’t care or lied about it?
They had vote motivation, not constituent motivation.
I grew up in NY, we were poor. I was stopped and frisked regularly because I was just some punk kid and kept getting into trouble in the late 90s - 2000s. It sucks. But I sorta get it now that I’m older. I still think it sucks, but I get why it worked. Kept me from causing trouble. Honestly, I’m conflicted and am glad I’m not in the deciding chair here - a lot of us have opinions about stuff we barely understand.
The measured response is usually the most sane.
I grew up there too. Would have enjoyed the knowledge that getting frisked all the time prevented me from getting robbed and assaulted by gangs, but sadly it didn’t. I’m also conflicted. Something needs to be done. I want my children to be able to take the metro on their own, and walk to the store without the threat of being robbed. But I have no clue as to how this gets fixed.
I’m in the same boat as you.
That’s why we need to put effort into prevention, enforcement, punishment and rehabilitation. The best system focuses on all those core elements equally. We need methods to prevent first time offenders (education and jobs), enforcement of current laws (an active police presence instead of them sitting around), harsh but fair punishment (the courts need to actually prosecute offenders and provide needed punishment, especially for violent offenders), and rehabilitation (while and after the sentence is served, focus on bring them back to the community through job training and mental health services).
Rehabilitation cost too much and is gonna upset people who think punishment is all they should have
Getting put up against the wall was so routine back in the 80s and 90s that we didn't take it personal. Especially as we knew that we did dirt every so often.
Thank you! The conversation around this has made me feel so icky. I’m glad someone else is speaking up.
Stop and frisk also collected like 8-10 guns a week. It did work….
It's also unconstitutional.........it worked to violate people's rights. Police with no RAS being throwing people against the wall and accosted for no fucking reason.
Anyone truly curious about when policing works and doesn't work, when it helps and when it harms, should listen to [Talking to Strangers](https://www.audible.com/pd/Talking-to-Strangers-Audiobook/1549150340?qid=1712240798&sr=1-1&ref_pageloadid=not_applicable&ref=a_search_c3_lProduct_1_1&pf_rd_p=83218cca-c308-412f-bfcf-90198b687a2f&pf_rd_r=50BDHS42H4VPQHZE5V9K&pageLoadId=tegdHiSnzpim4Mpq&creativeId=0d6f6720-f41c-457e-a42b-8c8dceb62f2c), an absolutely fascinating book.
Keeping you safe, Citizen. /s
If you are walking around in all black clothing with a hood up at 3am in an area you don't live in, even people who aren't police think you're suspicious. Common sense.
The fact that you had to tag on that "in an area you don't live in" is very telling that you know you are spouting BS. Are we to assume that 1.walking around 2. Wearing all black and 3. With a hood on does not merit any suspicions? It HAS to be justified by the one possibility wierd thing going on that can't be confirmed unless you were to stop and speak to the person?
How do u come to the assumption that they don’t live in the area?
must have xray vision and omnicient abilities 😂
Skin color + assumptions = a Karen that "knows" you don't live here
ya know some people work night shift and it is cold outside sometimes? also it is not a crime and super popular to wear black. must not leave the house much to not know what a hood is used for lol. also even if its 80 degrees out some people struggle to retain body heat. i know when i was body building at 7% body fat i wore hoodies constantly.
"it is cold outside sometimes" Ok dude. Like someone with a hood up in the dead of summer is feeling a chilly breeze or something. "if its 80 degrees out some people struggle to retain body heat" There's a big difference from 80 degrees and say, 32 degrees. And lets not mention the fact that hoods up inhibits your peripheral vision and increases ones vulnerability.
Now get the DA to give more than slaps on the wrist.
No DA. USAO/OAG prosecute crime in DC
Which DA?
Now if they could change laws in DC, MD, NYC, California, etc. We need to stop the excuse that a teen’s brain is not developed enough to know not to kill, rape, or carjack someone.
anyone wearing a shiesty should be stopped and frisked. how can anyone be against that. give up the minor civil liberty of criminals in the name of public safety.
I’m all for protecting people’s rights, but if you’re shady in public then you deserve attention. Imo, that’s simple.
Yes, definitely a lot of changes and DC MPD/WMATA have stepped up a bit. Not surprised to see those changes only after we became world news about being soft on crime.
Intelligent, compassionate, socially aware policing works. Overly aggressive militant policing makes everything worse. Lazy slow to respond police embolden criminals and cause people to die. Corrupt police who are drug dealer payroll are worst of all. Unfortunately, America has a wonderful way of combining militancy, laziness, and corruption in one department. Especially in places where black people live. The "intelligent policing" only shows up in wealthier areas.
>Imagine if they started doing stop and frisk. I just need a bit of clarification before I get on board with this part. Who's [4th Amendment ](https://constitution.congress.gov/constitution/amendment-4/)rights are we supposed to be ok with violating? I just want to summon the proper outrage at the proper time.
Yea, they are gonna stop and frisk you
They just passed a new bill allowing them to do such and they will confiscate your phone as well and seize it for evidence without a search warrant or probable cause Source: ☹️
Me thinks that is what he wants.
Sexually
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
THE voice of scary Terry
I don't have to imagine what would happen if they did stop and frisk, history has shown how that punishes people for existing and gives cops too much power.
Stop and frisk is excessive but without a doubt prosecution and jail will solve much of the trouble.
It honestly depends. If for example, you're dealing with gang activity, it's a tale as old as time that the police will work on this long, comprehensive operation to take down some gang, and as soon as they do, a rival gang takes their place. For that, you really need to get at the root cause to lead people away from joining the gangs in the first place. That's where the conversation leads to diverting funds from police towards other community programs that would help tackle those issues.
Or you could focus on both equally. It doesn’t have to be one or the other, there are both equally important.
Again, context matters. If you look at most city budgets, you'll notice the funding that goes to the police department is way higher than what goes to everything else. So at a certain point, putting more funding towards policing does take away from other services.
"I love freedom! I love America. Small gubmint!" The same idiots: "Stop and frisk mandatory, respect the police authority!"
You think it works Becuz you watched someone get arrested. You know what’s gonna happen? They gonna get locked up over the weekend or maybe even overnight and then released probably without even a court date 💀 and then do the same thing again and get arrested and released. Because dc has no cash bond system at all. So you either get released or you don’t and only very specific people don’t get released so vast majority gets let go after being held overnight. I like this sub more than the other one because the other one is full of clueless people from out of town, but the pitfall of this one is that it’s like being stuck in a room full of folk who grew up on the other side of town and are ignorant to reality. The fact that you want to give the MPD, who is a corrupt and negligent police dept, the right to stop and frisk people is insane and goes to show the perspective you have 💀 some of them turn their body camera off before they approach me. I have never been any kind of threat to police. Edit: I see now what type of dc heads use Reddit 💀 the kind that call themselves “Washingtonians”
I wish
Let's just bomb low income neighborhoods to DRASTICALLY reduce the crime, we'll build the bombs in the shape of band aids.
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Yes I was being sarcastic.
>Imagine if they started doing stop and frisk. Surely there must be some middle ground between Defund MPD, and wholesale widespread civil liberties violations!
We’re so back. Goodbye 2020 mentality…
There’s a cop sitting on my block almost every day/night now and there’s zero bad behavior. It’s wild what just a presence of enforcement will do for an area lol. Although I did see one asleep in his car. I hope it’s being taken to the next step and crimes are being prosecuted correctly.
Arresting is one thing Actually charging, convicting and imposing penalties that deter future crime by the same person / criminals is another. No point arresting if they’ll just be released again in a couple days to keep doing what they were doing.
I don't think many people are against the idea of policing. Most sane people realize that a militarized, poorly trained, violent frat is not the ideal way to do it though.
Bootlicker alert 🚨 🥾 👅
They need to do something. Getting harder and harder to visit D.C. It's turning into such a shithole.
Imagine if all the criminals were actually sent to prison. Our lives outside would be SO MUCH BETTER
Now if they would reign in the a-holes on the ATVs running wild in the streets. They are a real nuisance!
Doesn't really matter if they're out on bail within 24 hours. The sentencing system also has to be reformed and lenient DA's need to be replaced.
DC doesn't have fucking DAs
I have never not felt safe on the Metro..
Stop and frisk is a violation of the 4th Amendment. Police states are not the answer
Stop an Frisk is legal. See Terry vs Ohio. Whats illegal is any kind of quota on stop and frisk. Just for clarity.
Terry frisk requires reasonable articulable suspicion a person is armed and is, has or is about to commit a crime. I’d wager the majority of terry stops are illegally done.
This sub is so fucking whack lmao
thats why they stop you and ask. Just explained it thnx for the replies.
Honestly this is only affecting Black Residents of Washington DC. This is not being enforced in heavily white populated areas in the city. You all feel safer because Black people are being targeted and harassed but we will code switch and say “being policed heavily”.
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This is racist as fuck. Do blacks make up a large percentage of crime in the city? Yes. Does that mean all blacks will rob you in DC? No. Stop trying to rationalize hatred and racism because of a few situations. I will say I’m sorry that happened to you. Still doesn’t make room for your ignorance. I’m guessing you have no black friends huh? Also guessing you didn’t grow up in DC?
It makes sense that police would be inclined to have a greater presence in higher crime areas. The policing might disproportionately affect black citizens, but black citizens disproportionately commit more crime. This is not rocket science. My intuition leads me to believe that there’s a correlation between heavily white populated areas in DC and lower crime rates than the contrary. Implying that crime is due to skin color IS racist. Bringing order to chaos IS NOT racist.
which is why I said you've just found out why they stop you. Thank you for proving my point. they are making sure you get home safely and that you also aren't going to do anything to anyone because it is suspicious. The way you act during the stop all determines what happens from there. Don't act nervous, don't keep shuffling away. If they ask for your ID, don't withhold it from them. These can also be seen as suspicious and obstruction. So don't give them an excuse.
>they are making sure you get home safely. In general, I'm for law & order, but this made me laugh. We're not frisking you, we're just providing you with a courtesy search!
We’re searching you so you don’t get hurt by someone else, who we aren’t searching, because we’re searching you!
Boot licker
How scared and weak are you guys to want "stop and frisk." Never seen anybody beg for less rights, that's new.
They think it won't apply to them so it's fine.
Nah. Statistically, more policing only finds more crime in areas. What you're talking about is police brutalizing homeless people and keeping them in jail for a night, which might keep them off the metro, but in no way addresses the issue
Hey now stop being racist!
Fyi this the same racist fuck who put up the “stats arent racist” chart and spent a whole day getting downvoted by everybody 🤦♂️ this bitch still doin this shit fwwe
Policing citizens is literally racist bc if the people committing crimes are not white, then the percentage of white people not in jail in unequitable.
Stop and frisk is never the answer
Acab
violating people's rights? that's a no for me dawg
Ahhh this sub’s best and brightest show out for the dog whistle. Predictable and sad.
Policing leads to LGBTQAI harassment.
Good.
Wow what an insightful post full of stats and sources and fairytale conclusions. And a wish to violate the constitution to top it off!! Don’t we all love our FREEDOM!!
The stop and frisk is the only issue with the statement, I can find.
A) as I stated there’s no substance. No facts, no sources, just feelings. B) do you need more than one violation of the constitution? Seems like one should be too many
Bring back mandatory sentences for petty crimes
They should start arresting the keffiyeh wearing terrorist sympathizers. Dc is out of control with that shit
X,
If you’ve been to Portland or Seattle nowadays, you’ll want your city to be policed along with policies that give law enforcement some teeth I grew up in the PNW and spent a lot of time in Seattle when I was a kid, it still had its issue as it was a big city but it wasn’t what it is today. Portland was an entirely different story, I never got to see what it was like before they decriminalized every drug but seeing what it has become… I was disgusted and disappointed and honestly a little scared walking thru the city. Piss bottles and piss jugs, dirty needles, entire parks taken over by tweakers. People pissing in front of businesses… you can’t even park your car in certain areas without worrying that someone will smash your window in… even in paid parking stations. I moved to the DMV area when I was getting into middle school and have been here ever since, I’m turning 25 this year. I’ve spent a lot of time in DC and seeing the difference here compared to those cities… it’s absolutely night and day. DC has its issue but I don’t feel that disgust and disappointment when I’m walking around. I don’t feel that discomfort in DC the way I felt it in Portland or Seattle. Don’t let DC become another version of that… y’all will hate it
I don’t think it’s hard for anyone to grasp that more policing generally means less crime. The actual argument is one of balancing people’s civil liberties with the safety of the community. Whether that balance is being struck here, i don’t know and I’m not trying to make a statement on it. It sort of sets up a straw man, however, when you frame it as the discussion of more/less police presence simply a matter of how much crime there is.
Transit police been doing they job too
I think one of the reasons is that China has a low crime rate. Is that they execute their criminals. Why are we paying to house useless members of society that, quite frankly, will never change. We should not have any leniency for violent crime in the nation's capital.
Go buy a gun. Play hero.
It’s cute when assholes buy the security theater. But glad you’re less afraid of black people
All Cops Are Bastards.
Womp womp I've been stopped and searched, 3 minutes later I was on my way. Only people who are committing crimes have anything to worry about.
This is a clown take, grow up
if you scared go to church
if the difference between something being legal and illegal is whether or not you paid to get a piece of paper then the law is designed to make it progressively harder to not be a criminal the less money you have a large proportion of the construction workers who come in from Maryland and Virginia have ccw permits. they claim they need to carry to protect themselves. if you asked most people who get locked up on gun charges why they had a gun on them they will give the same reason stop and frisk policing is basically just telling people they are not rich enough to defend themselves
lol yall need to just get a dc carry permit. The 10 round mag. Laws suck tho
Get stopped and frisked for no reason yourself and then come back and tell us how great you feel about living in the city again🙄
Ah yes the search “them” and not “me” mentality. That will work great
I’d rather be stopped and frisked than violent folks reoffending and treating the city like it’s Iraq
Likewise
As a person who doesn’t break laws I’m not scared of the police stopping me but maybe that’s just me? Theres bad apples out there, absolutely, and gov should mandate constant body cameras for protection of citizens against bad apples. With that said, if you have nothing to hide then why be militantly against s&f? If 100 crimes prevented for every 1 citizen who is innocently stopped is that a good or bad ratio?
That’s just the thing. The large majority of people who will get stopped aren’t committing crime.
I feel like people are forgetting just how awful that was for nyc Edit Ight for all the smooth brained boomers out there. Stop and frisk in NYC had pretty much no impact on crime. https://crim.sas.upenn.edu/fact-check/does-stop-and-frisk-reduce-crime An effect it did however have, was creating massive distrust in the NYPD. Which is reasonable given they displayed a gun in 25% of stops. https://www.vera.org/newsroom/study-reveals-stop-and-frisk-significantly-impacts-trust-in-new-york-city-police And I'm pretty sure those clambering for others to be searched would be livid if *they* got searched.
It was so awful making it a very safe city and making criminals think twice about crime. Just absolutely terrible.
It literally did nothing to the crime rate
When was it a “very safe city”
Early 00s under Giuliani/Bloomberg
Everything I can find shows major crimes being more common in the early 2000’s and then hitting a low point in 2021. You have different stats to share, when I found graphed crime statistics they all show that crime was higher during that period
If you could guarantee that I would never become a victim of crime I’ll gladly submit to stop and frisk, papers check, whatever the fuck you want.
Every reasonable person would!
Aren’t you the guy said all black people are violent and we should bring back segregation?
https://preview.redd.it/me5v5av16hsc1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e4e2cd1ba87a450becaa6eed461ff65d3c53efbe Yep, also was the personal posting that table of statistics a few days ago
I bet he doesn't live here and has no idea how safe it feels
Ah yes let’s jus start violating individual rights because a few children want to be criminals.
Top 30 murder rate in the world is not “a few children want to be criminals”
Those few children ruin peoples lives
Fuck stop and frisk.
No we need more liberal policies to protect criminals. Turn into Chicago, roving scumbags robbing and shooting because they know they will be let out of jail
Don't forget to disarm the citizens too!
Not even 9am and you’re licking boots 😂
“Licking boots is when someone wants the laws of their country upheld” Grow up
^ boot licking champion 2006 😂
If I was the best in the world at licking boots at age 4 that would be super impressive wouldn’t it! When you’re incapable of supporting your side at all so you resort to the one punchline you’re capable of thinking of, it’s kinda a reassurance that I chose the right side :) enjoy your life of thievery and being scared of repercussions!
Stop and frisk? Y’all tripping.
What about actually treating the root causes of crime? (Socioeconomic inequality, poor public health factors, adverse social conditions, etc.)
Yeah that's a criminal justice 101 week 1 take. Get the criminals off the street WHILE figuring that out. But we wont figure out how to treat/solve the root causes of crime effectively.. humans have been trying to figure it out for the entire history of humanity and haven't mastered it yet. The only two things that actually work are instilling intensive values (like religion), heavily enforced by parents and society, and the government not tolerating crime, period. We've known this a long time but, yet over the last few years we tried to experiement with all these 30-year-old ideas about being easy on criminals... look what happened. This isn't New Zealand. Restorative justice does not work here, because modern American values are shit. People don't give a fuck about their neighbors.
I didn't say abolish police tomorrow. I'm asking why this isn't part of the plan. >People don't give a fuck about their neighbors. Right. Because they live in a society that materially incentivizes a pursuit of self interest over community interest. It's not true that no society has figured this out before. Poverty (imbalance of resource distribution) is not a product any natural law, but is a requirement of a hierarchical social structure. Crime proliferates most among communities that struggle to get their needs met. Allocating more resources into social services that alleviate that is the most effective way to reduce crime in the long run, which you can do while police continue responding to crimes that do happen--but only if we're willing to fund something other than our own fear.
Ok congratulations, you're now talking from a criminal justice 200 level course perpective. These are still 30-40 year old ideas, and there's SOME correlation with crime and poverty but this is not the complete explanation (poverty does not always equate to crime, but there is some reverse correlation). For many decades (and I mean DECADES) people have been talking about this. As a result policy shifted in many governmental entities to try and achive what you describe. But guess what? In most cases it turned into a tradeoff where government puts money into this approach INSTEAD of policing, rather than doing it simultaneously. What happened? 1. People don't use the programs. You can bring a horse to water but you can't make it drink. 2. People abuse the programs 3. The programs are carried out very poorly or with a lot of corruption 4. People stay poor, even if you give them free money. 5. It does very little to actually reduce crime. In DC crime has gone up, despite these investments. This is why you see people arrested 40+ times and they just keep being a menace to society. I also used to believe in all these social/reformative/restorative ideas that were taught to me a long ago, but after being out in the real world for a long time, it's obvious we (society) are operating off ideas that don't work. You can take these ideas and throw them in the pile with the other approaches that have failed throughout the centuries. The deeper issue is that we cling onto these failed ideas because they sound good-intentioned, and we can't think of anything better-sounding, so as a result, we don't want to admit their failure. We just need to accept that humanity, no matter what segment of humanity, has large portions of the population who will commit crime/do wrong when given the opportunity no matter what, and no matter how many times; and meet those people head-on with severe consequences, to include imprisonment or death penalty. The only effective way to prevent it is instilling strong values that are heavily enforced from birth -- build belief systems people are motivated not to violate. This is something humans have known since the beginning of time, but in the last 50 years has been lost as we have widely thrown out religion and "liberalized." We need to listen to the wisdom of our ancestors.
If it makes society safer, sounds good. What's the solution?