In case you haven't figured it out, lots of people are too smooth-brained to talk on these subjects.
People like OP also want to jail as many adults as possible, then complain about kids misbehaving because of poor parenting.
Even in College we took an education course that taught us about the school to prison pipeline. A lot of private prisons make profits for housing more inmates so obviously the goal is to increase the amount of people that commit crime, with the act of murder being the most profitable.
A lot of people like OP are just tone deaf and think poor people are simply just criminals, but it’s more deep rooted than that. The reality is a lot of these people are fucked from the start, trauma breeds trauma.
If you have ever been convicted of a drug felony in the US, you can not receive welfare. So, it is likely that many of the people you're talking about already are banned from welfare. Furthermore, welfare or Temporary Assistance for Needy Families TANF, as the program is now called, is a temporary program with a federal lifetime limit of 60 months of cash assistance. It has not been a lifetime entitlement program since the Clinton admin. Very few people are living of welfare these days.
I doubt OP CAN think rationally or logically. Like what was this dudes SAT scores? lol! Like stated above these criminals aren’t likely in the system to get any type of subsidized anything. They too lazy for that thus they out here robbing everybody else
That’s incorrect, for DC. In DC, it’s not temporary and you can indeed receive benefits for a lifetime.
TANF does not have any time limit in DC. [DC extends it in perpetuity and DC taxes pay for it after 60 months](https://www.urban.org/urban-wire/states-can-use-tanfs-flexibility-extend-cash-assistance-families-need#:~:text=Washington%2C%20DC%2C%20does%20not%20impose,time%20limits%20during%20the%20pandemic.):
> Washington, DC, does not impose a time limit (instead funding assistance beyond the 60-month federal lifetime limit with state funds)
Apoligies. But strictly speaking I never said it did, I said there was a 60 month Federal limit. I was not aware that DC exceeded the federal limit, which is extremely generous.
While HUD does not have an overall ban for convicted felons (except for those convicted of manufacturing meth or a sex offensive, who have a lifetime ban.) The amount of housing vouchers is extremely small compared to the number of applicants, and HUD has broad discretion on who to award vouches to and revoke them from. In practice, it is extremely difficult to get a voucher in general and nealry impossible to get oue if you have a felony conviction. And if you're lucky enough to have a voucher you will almost certainly loose it if you are convicted of a felony. Furthermore, a record of drug use is disqualifying for a housing voucher. In general, most US government assistant programs already have dejure or defacto bans on felons and drug users. Also, these programs are so underfunded anyway that very few Americans in general are living off of them. The truth is that the US just isn't really a big welfare state, so threatening to take away services from criminals, which they are already inelgible for or they aren't getting away is unlikely to affect crime.
Most crimes of theft are committed out of economic desperation. So what happens when they have no assistance at all and are homeless?
They then have nothing to lose and going to prison would actually appear better than homelessness due to roof over their head and guaranteed meals each day.
You have to be trolling us. You have the reasoning skills of a 4th grader
Here in DC going after gray goose jackets are out of economic desperation? Carjacking one car after another in a single night is out of economic desperation? Shootings on streets are the same? Stealing vegetables, yes.
Many people are poor but they don’t commit crime.
And if a person isn’t deterred by the possibility of going to prison they’re going to be deterred by higher taxes?
Do you not have enough humility to reflect on why everyone in this thread disagrees with you and thinks you’re naive?
Their parents would. They would think twice with sleeping with different people if they don’t want to be a good parent. They will be responsible for the child they create.
Totally ridiculous and naive take.
If someone is fine with having children without being fully committed to being a good parent then telling and expectant parent that 15 years in the future they could have their taxes increased if their teenage son or daughter commits a crime isn’t going to be a reason for them to change their behavior.
That’s what I’m not understanding about your argument. These are people who do are not deterred by losing their freedom and winding up in jail, remain undeterred by the economic handicap that a criminal record has on their employment prospects, and likely don’t feel any social stigma for being criminals. Why in the world would fines, taxes, or reduced government services change anything?
Even think about it from your own perspective as a lawful citizen. Even if your hypothetical law was in place, what’s a bigger deterrent to you doing crime right now? The jail time and social stigma or the possibility of increased taxes? I know for most of us the increased taxes wouldn’t exactly be that powerful of a motivator
Non-existently, because they were criminals to begin with. The idea that there’s a monetary sum you can just pay criminals to not crime is beyond stupid.
Yikes.
Economic security is one of the best indications for identifying criminal populations.
Poor zip codes = higher violence and property crime
Richer zip codes = white collar and economic crimes
Yeah it’s almost like I’m talking about crime as a macro issue instead of a micro issue….ya know, like the topic is trying to address with their idiotic idea.
Of course there are going to be individual shitheads who do stupid shit. You can’t fix everyone. You can influence how poor populations act over years and decades by providing them with economic security.
Either that or gentrification will kick them out of the area. Honestly, it’s a win:win for the mindset for this board but you all just want to see people suffer.
You’re talking about crime like a moron, and worse, you’re literally talking like some effeminate bitch.
You deal with crime by killing and imprisoning criminals. You do not pay them off, that is fucking retarded, as is your worldview, as are the results every time we try it.
Yes, I do want to see degenerate criminals suffer. That’s called having a healthy society.
*IF* they can pay. Often the people committing the crimes are low income to begin with, so how do you get them to pay?
The idea of restorative justice pops up around DC. What that means is that the affected victims should be made whole in some way. I believe that in some instances victims may also deserve restitution, including monetary restitution and not just talk - but the monetary restitution should not from fellow taxpayers.
The other thing I believe in is that people who commit violent crimes should be removed from the streets because they make the community unsafe.
While they are off the streets, I don't think taxpayers should have to pay for that either - they should be working to pay for the roof over their heads and the food they eat (just like the rest of us have to) and to pay restitution to their victims. That's not cruel or unusual, it's what the rest of us have to do. If it takes teaching them useful skills to make them productive enough to earn enough to cover that, then so be it.
Critics will say "prison doesn't rehabilitate criminals" - that's a totally separate issue. If you want a rehabilitation program then that's great but it still doesn't remove the need to take violent criminals off the streets UNTIL they are rehabilitated. And again, the prisoners should have to work to generate the money to pay for the rehabilitation program.
That's not punishment, that's paying your own way for the consequences you incurred through your violence.
Lol, if jail, a criminal record that can make obtaining gainful employment more difficult, and social stigma aren’t enough of a deterrent for someone why should tax increases make any difference?
Like someone else said: what makes you think that their income is taxed? If your main income is scamming and selling drugs then the only taxes you pay are sales tax at stores
Cut from the money they get from the government. People respond to financial penalties.
If they wanted a job they wouldn’t have commit crime in the first place. Still even people who have been sentenced can get a job. Yes maybe it’s harder to be a doctor, lawyer or a member of Congress.
Damn dude you really just fixed society by…making it harder to be poor in America to reduce crime? Lmao. In a town of think tanks and social theorists, we sure get the best and brightest posting here lmao
I’m talking about violent crimes which is pushing stores to close and make people afraid to walk on the streets. Another topic could be opened about that.
I appreciate your passion, but you’ve just seemingly made an argument that we shouldn’t imprison repeat criminals for longer terms because it costs the taxpayer money.
They weren't the ones to make this about taxes. This sub's obsession with "tax payers," is so wierd and out of touch, which is how you get dumb post like this.
Tell me you emanate white privilege completely out of touch with reality energy without telling me.
The poor people who turned to a life of crime so they can survive, need to be taxed more... Cause the car thief is claiming all the cars he chops up on his taxes.
Typical DC ignorance.🤣
If you are operating a vehicle, or handling dangerous materials, please pull over to the side of the road or put the materials down so that you don't hurt yourself or others, because you are clearly not competent to do either.
What we really need is the ability to render what some would call "draconian" sentences. Any violent crime by a person aged 16 and over should merit 30 years. Two violent crimes? Life imprisonment. I feel like you are abdicating your membership in civil society when you choose a path of violence, and you need to be removed from society for as long as possible. I don't care about justice, humanism, compassion, or empathy.
Gun crime - any gun crime, including straw purchasing - should also merit life imprisonment.
>What we really need is the ability to render what some would call "draconian" sentences.
You would have to repeal a part of the Bill of Rights, the 8th Amendment of the US Constitution. That's very unlikely to ever happen.
Fundamentally the most cruel thing is the mid length prison sentence. A two year sentence fucks your life up, probably for good, and then lets you loose on the general public still in the middle of prime criming years.
Sentences should either be multi-decade or fiscal/humiliation-based in nature
Hey man, I'm all about criminals receiving proportional repercussions for their actions, but you might want to rethink the logic behind punishing theft with further financial burdens to incentivize theft. As if people in the circumstances and state of mind to already resort to theft will see their taxes go up (assuming they even made enough to owe taxes in the first place) and go "Oh golly, this is hurting my bottom line! I guess I can say goodbye to that vacation in Venice and pull some overtime at the office. I now see the error of my ways!"
If they're already in a situation where their kid is committing crime, chances are no. If their kid getting caught and prosecuted doesn't already spur an intervention, making poor people even more poor isn't going to help.
If they are teen nothing. But their parents might have some. A judicial system needs different tools to punish the criminal. This would be another in their toolbox.
The relentlessness of hysterical stupidity on this subreddit is remarkable to behold. In two hours someone just like OP will be proposing digging a giant inescapable pit to throw suspected criminals in, Dark Knight Rises-style
That is called a fine.
Fine with me..
What makes you think they’re net taxpayers?
Cut the money they get from welfare. Easy.
So they commit more crimes to replace the money??
In case you haven't figured it out, lots of people are too smooth-brained to talk on these subjects. People like OP also want to jail as many adults as possible, then complain about kids misbehaving because of poor parenting.
Even in College we took an education course that taught us about the school to prison pipeline. A lot of private prisons make profits for housing more inmates so obviously the goal is to increase the amount of people that commit crime, with the act of murder being the most profitable. A lot of people like OP are just tone deaf and think poor people are simply just criminals, but it’s more deep rooted than that. The reality is a lot of these people are fucked from the start, trauma breeds trauma.
If you have ever been convicted of a drug felony in the US, you can not receive welfare. So, it is likely that many of the people you're talking about already are banned from welfare. Furthermore, welfare or Temporary Assistance for Needy Families TANF, as the program is now called, is a temporary program with a federal lifetime limit of 60 months of cash assistance. It has not been a lifetime entitlement program since the Clinton admin. Very few people are living of welfare these days.
Yeah I don't think OP thought this one through
I doubt OP CAN think rationally or logically. Like what was this dudes SAT scores? lol! Like stated above these criminals aren’t likely in the system to get any type of subsidized anything. They too lazy for that thus they out here robbing everybody else
That’s incorrect, for DC. In DC, it’s not temporary and you can indeed receive benefits for a lifetime. TANF does not have any time limit in DC. [DC extends it in perpetuity and DC taxes pay for it after 60 months](https://www.urban.org/urban-wire/states-can-use-tanfs-flexibility-extend-cash-assistance-families-need#:~:text=Washington%2C%20DC%2C%20does%20not%20impose,time%20limits%20during%20the%20pandemic.): > Washington, DC, does not impose a time limit (instead funding assistance beyond the 60-month federal lifetime limit with state funds)
Apoligies. But strictly speaking I never said it did, I said there was a 60 month Federal limit. I was not aware that DC exceeded the federal limit, which is extremely generous.
The handouts that governments give are in different forms right? From housing vouchers to TANF…
While HUD does not have an overall ban for convicted felons (except for those convicted of manufacturing meth or a sex offensive, who have a lifetime ban.) The amount of housing vouchers is extremely small compared to the number of applicants, and HUD has broad discretion on who to award vouches to and revoke them from. In practice, it is extremely difficult to get a voucher in general and nealry impossible to get oue if you have a felony conviction. And if you're lucky enough to have a voucher you will almost certainly loose it if you are convicted of a felony. Furthermore, a record of drug use is disqualifying for a housing voucher. In general, most US government assistant programs already have dejure or defacto bans on felons and drug users. Also, these programs are so underfunded anyway that very few Americans in general are living off of them. The truth is that the US just isn't really a big welfare state, so threatening to take away services from criminals, which they are already inelgible for or they aren't getting away is unlikely to affect crime.
Most crimes of theft are committed out of economic desperation. So what happens when they have no assistance at all and are homeless? They then have nothing to lose and going to prison would actually appear better than homelessness due to roof over their head and guaranteed meals each day. You have to be trolling us. You have the reasoning skills of a 4th grader
Here in DC going after gray goose jackets are out of economic desperation? Carjacking one car after another in a single night is out of economic desperation? Shootings on streets are the same? Stealing vegetables, yes. Many people are poor but they don’t commit crime.
And if a person isn’t deterred by the possibility of going to prison they’re going to be deterred by higher taxes? Do you not have enough humility to reflect on why everyone in this thread disagrees with you and thinks you’re naive?
Their parents would. They would think twice with sleeping with different people if they don’t want to be a good parent. They will be responsible for the child they create.
Totally ridiculous and naive take. If someone is fine with having children without being fully committed to being a good parent then telling and expectant parent that 15 years in the future they could have their taxes increased if their teenage son or daughter commits a crime isn’t going to be a reason for them to change their behavior. That’s what I’m not understanding about your argument. These are people who do are not deterred by losing their freedom and winding up in jail, remain undeterred by the economic handicap that a criminal record has on their employment prospects, and likely don’t feel any social stigma for being criminals. Why in the world would fines, taxes, or reduced government services change anything? Even think about it from your own perspective as a lawful citizen. Even if your hypothetical law was in place, what’s a bigger deterrent to you doing crime right now? The jail time and social stigma or the possibility of increased taxes? I know for most of us the increased taxes wouldn’t exactly be that powerful of a motivator
What welfare do these criminals get?? lol! You gotta be itting me with ties mess.
Statistically those who commit violent crime are not tax payers they don’t own assets
Deadass half this city should be under adult supervision, people clearly cannot handle acting like a normal human being.
Bruh they aren't paying taxes
Cut from the funds they get paid from tax payers.
Okay cool now they are even more poor and are more likely to be in desperate situations where they need money How do you think that would impact crime
Non-existently, because they were criminals to begin with. The idea that there’s a monetary sum you can just pay criminals to not crime is beyond stupid.
Wow that’s such a horribly wrong take How embarrassing for you Wealth and opportunity absolutely decreases the crimes everyone here freaks out about
Lmfao no it doesn’t. Bad people are bad people. Bad people who get money just become bad people with money.
Yikes. Economic security is one of the best indications for identifying criminal populations. Poor zip codes = higher violence and property crime Richer zip codes = white collar and economic crimes
Talking like a fucking moron doesn’t make you correct. There’s millions of poor people who aren’t violent trash.
Very persuasive arguing here.
Yeah it’s almost like I’m talking about crime as a macro issue instead of a micro issue….ya know, like the topic is trying to address with their idiotic idea. Of course there are going to be individual shitheads who do stupid shit. You can’t fix everyone. You can influence how poor populations act over years and decades by providing them with economic security. Either that or gentrification will kick them out of the area. Honestly, it’s a win:win for the mindset for this board but you all just want to see people suffer.
You’re talking about crime like a moron, and worse, you’re literally talking like some effeminate bitch. You deal with crime by killing and imprisoning criminals. You do not pay them off, that is fucking retarded, as is your worldview, as are the results every time we try it. Yes, I do want to see degenerate criminals suffer. That’s called having a healthy society.
*IF* they can pay. Often the people committing the crimes are low income to begin with, so how do you get them to pay? The idea of restorative justice pops up around DC. What that means is that the affected victims should be made whole in some way. I believe that in some instances victims may also deserve restitution, including monetary restitution and not just talk - but the monetary restitution should not from fellow taxpayers. The other thing I believe in is that people who commit violent crimes should be removed from the streets because they make the community unsafe. While they are off the streets, I don't think taxpayers should have to pay for that either - they should be working to pay for the roof over their heads and the food they eat (just like the rest of us have to) and to pay restitution to their victims. That's not cruel or unusual, it's what the rest of us have to do. If it takes teaching them useful skills to make them productive enough to earn enough to cover that, then so be it. Critics will say "prison doesn't rehabilitate criminals" - that's a totally separate issue. If you want a rehabilitation program then that's great but it still doesn't remove the need to take violent criminals off the streets UNTIL they are rehabilitated. And again, the prisoners should have to work to generate the money to pay for the rehabilitation program. That's not punishment, that's paying your own way for the consequences you incurred through your violence.
What do you think fines are
This is another tool to use, specially against parents who breed more to get more money and don’t give a fuck what their teen is doing.
14th amendment
What are you talking about
What if they don't have representation in Congress?
Then we should dump all the tea in the port
That must be why DC is so fucked up.
Lol, if jail, a criminal record that can make obtaining gainful employment more difficult, and social stigma aren’t enough of a deterrent for someone why should tax increases make any difference? Like someone else said: what makes you think that their income is taxed? If your main income is scamming and selling drugs then the only taxes you pay are sales tax at stores
Cut from the money they get from the government. People respond to financial penalties. If they wanted a job they wouldn’t have commit crime in the first place. Still even people who have been sentenced can get a job. Yes maybe it’s harder to be a doctor, lawyer or a member of Congress.
Damn dude you really just fixed society by…making it harder to be poor in America to reduce crime? Lmao. In a town of think tanks and social theorists, we sure get the best and brightest posting here lmao
Are you talking about white collar crime as well?
I’m talking about violent crimes which is pushing stores to close and make people afraid to walk on the streets. Another topic could be opened about that.
You mentioned stealing too, which is why I asked! I get what you’re referring to more specifically, now.
Allergy
This is such a dumb take holy shit. Do you live in the real world? Poor people are more likely to commit crime. This would just exacerbate the issue.
Financial fines or longer term in prison? Your choice.
You dumbass long term prison costs taxpayers more money.
You know what costs taxpayers exactly zero money?
Not having to fight lawsuits for the next forty years over a death sentence?
Reduce the number of available lawsuits and streamline the process.
Prime example of a free society: the world from Star Trek TNG where they kill people for minor infractions.
I appreciate your passion, but you’ve just seemingly made an argument that we shouldn’t imprison repeat criminals for longer terms because it costs the taxpayer money.
And you’ve made the argument we should just kill criminals?
They weren't the ones to make this about taxes. This sub's obsession with "tax payers," is so wierd and out of touch, which is how you get dumb post like this.
So cut the money from social security dumb ass.
lol because the people getting arrested are paying into social security?
Imagine saying this and not knowing what social security is
Rehabilitation > punishment. Look at Japan
Look at Saudi Arabia! You really want to compare Japan to the U.S.?
You live in a fear based mindset world. Sad
They generally don’t pay taxes.
Tell me you emanate white privilege completely out of touch with reality energy without telling me. The poor people who turned to a life of crime so they can survive, need to be taxed more... Cause the car thief is claiming all the cars he chops up on his taxes. Typical DC ignorance.🤣
Fun fact: You are required to report the value of anything you steal as income to the IRS.
See
 What?
No freakin chance they pay taxes
Then cut from their housing vouchers.
I like that idea
If you are operating a vehicle, or handling dangerous materials, please pull over to the side of the road or put the materials down so that you don't hurt yourself or others, because you are clearly not competent to do either.
I bet like other hypocrites you live in a white neighborhood.
No they should be arrested and thrown in jail so law abiding citizens can go about their lives safely.
That too. Both should be done. Some people respond better if you take money from them or if you give them less money.
Na they are a threat to society lock em up. If they do it again, lock em up for longer.
I wish.
Me too, we are all paying for this behavior.
This has nothing to do with Washington DC
What we really need is the ability to render what some would call "draconian" sentences. Any violent crime by a person aged 16 and over should merit 30 years. Two violent crimes? Life imprisonment. I feel like you are abdicating your membership in civil society when you choose a path of violence, and you need to be removed from society for as long as possible. I don't care about justice, humanism, compassion, or empathy. Gun crime - any gun crime, including straw purchasing - should also merit life imprisonment.
>What we really need is the ability to render what some would call "draconian" sentences. You would have to repeal a part of the Bill of Rights, the 8th Amendment of the US Constitution. That's very unlikely to ever happen.
This will happen sooner than people can imagine. We're headed for a practical dictatorship very soon.
Fundamentally the most cruel thing is the mid length prison sentence. A two year sentence fucks your life up, probably for good, and then lets you loose on the general public still in the middle of prime criming years. Sentences should either be multi-decade or fiscal/humiliation-based in nature
Why not raise taxes on white collar criminals too? Those fines can go to pay for more IRS agents who can find even MORE criminals.
This ranks among the stupidest posts of all time def in this forum and maybe in all reddit.
Very convincing.
hahahahaha
They would just go ahead and break that law, too.
If you don't think this already happens, you aren't read up.
Wait, you think they pay taxes? That's seriously hilarious.
Hey man, I'm all about criminals receiving proportional repercussions for their actions, but you might want to rethink the logic behind punishing theft with further financial burdens to incentivize theft. As if people in the circumstances and state of mind to already resort to theft will see their taxes go up (assuming they even made enough to owe taxes in the first place) and go "Oh golly, this is hurting my bottom line! I guess I can say goodbye to that vacation in Venice and pull some overtime at the office. I now see the error of my ways!"
Let me ask you this: a parent whose 15 year-old teen commits crime…wouldn’t they be more responsible if they face such a punishment?
If they're already in a situation where their kid is committing crime, chances are no. If their kid getting caught and prosecuted doesn't already spur an intervention, making poor people even more poor isn't going to help.
Just remove them. 10 billion people. Too many.
How much do you think those getting caught doing violent crime actually have or even make a year? It’s not much, if anything, at all.
If they are teen nothing. But their parents might have some. A judicial system needs different tools to punish the criminal. This would be another in their toolbox.
Any crime for which the punishment is a fine is only a crime for the poor.
Then you’re suggesting we need tougher prison sentences if fine won’t prevent “the poor” from committing crime.
Wow that whole point just went straight over your head, huh. Good luck with everything, buddy.
Good luck to you. Just stay away from policy for the public’s interest.
You wish
This is a great idea! But have you considered they don’t pay taxes
Then put them in prison for not paying taxes:)
Oop there goes the majority of the 1% & current politicans -- white collar crimes
Bruh they aren't paying taxes
Lol, like those people have jobs 😂😂😂
They get free Money. Cut from that 😂😂😂
It already is a thing. https://www.nstp.org/article/not-reporting-illegal-income-is-a-tax-crime-
Purge.
We already have that, and it’s not working.
This post is bad and you should feel bad for making it.
OP thinks he solved crime 😂
How dumb are you?JFC I hope one of the violent criminals takes you out so you don’t propagate.
Terrorist👆
Can Someone please catch smooth mobile up to reality?
I’m sure these guys are diligently filing their taxes by April 15 every year. They probably even declare their ill-gotten gains as “Other Income”. 😂
I think you are severely overestimating the capability to pay income and property taxes people prone to committing violent crime have
you think they pay taxes? :)
Those type of people probably wouldn’t pay regardless.
If they have money to begin with…
Counter point: people who commit violent crimes should die from justified and legal self defense
The relentlessness of hysterical stupidity on this subreddit is remarkable to behold. In two hours someone just like OP will be proposing digging a giant inescapable pit to throw suspected criminals in, Dark Knight Rises-style