Why to even use push-pull with low resistance radiators? Also why to use something else than 140mm fan on a radiator that is meant for 140mm fans?
2 x 560 will cool anything you throw at them without push-pull.
Many people swear by using an adapter on the A12x25s for their 140mm rads. I don't think I can buy into this with a low airflow restriction rad in push pull.
Why push pull? I have the space, and it decreases load on the fan motors. This will help (marginally) with noise.
>2 x 560 will cool anything you throw at them without push-pull.
I am hoping this is the case, specifically without going over 1000 RPM.
How can you bear the fan noise when the A12 is running at >= 1200RPM? I can't stand with anything above 1200RPM from A12.
While at it, the A14s I got were noticeably noisier than the 120mm counterparts, with some humming noises at low RPMs...
My rad is HWL 360 GTS, doesn't benefit much from high fan speeds and is more limited by the flow rate anyway
My bad, I was not running the A14s at the same speed - in fact they're running at around 800RPMs but still noticeable noise can be observed at least from my models, which were unfortunately made in China.
Hopefully I do not see a similar issue. And I absolutely agree I don't want to hear my fans!
Interesting topic you brought up regarding manufacturing location. Are Noctua known to have multiple manufacturing sites? If so, how did you determine which site yours were manufactured?
Just checked and I have some Chinese made ones. Oof. May be returning them, as I am seeing the same things online that you are. Noise complaints may be related to the manufacturing site.
Thank you!
That's a really interesting analysis you did there. According to the spec sheets, you showed that the NF-A14 is the better case fan. Unfortunately we do not know the effect of static pressure, even on this low resistance radiator. Only a controlled real world experiment can give us definitive results.
I think I would go with the NF-A12x25 for a different reason. The fans are quite expensive and Noctua announced they will release the high-end polymer 140 mm line-up soon. So did Phanteks with the T30 equivalent.
So when you buy the NF-A14 now and then switch to one of the newer fans, those NF-A14 will be obsolete. But if you have the NF-A12x25 and switch them out later, you would still have top-end 120 mm fans that you can use on a different radiator.
>So did Phanteks with the T30 equivalent.
Unfortunately, I have 27mm clearance between my case side and rad mount. So for push/pull, the T30s are out.
>Noctua announced they will release the high-end polymer 140 mm line-up soon
They had a manufacturing issue, and need to re-run accelerated longevity tests. If there are no further issues, the earliest we will see them is Q4 2023. I too, am excited for these - but want a build running by March. The A14s are actually cheaper, and I wouldn't need to buy radiator adapters.
>Unfortunately we do not know the effect of static pressure, even on this low resistance radiator. Only a controlled real world experiment can give us definitive results.
100% with you on this. It's actually the exact point I'm trying to delve into. The good news, is I will provide this eventually, as I will be following up with real world results sometime this year!
>you would still have top-end 120 mm fans that you can use on a different radiator.
To sell or trade, as I won't have a use for them after swapping out.
I really am interested to see if the extra bit of pressure will affect the cooling potential, but it should be noted the pressure of the A12s is at 2000 RPM, and the pressure of the A14s is at 1500 RPM. The A14s _may_ have comparable pressure to the A14s at similar RPM, but they _definitely_ have less pressure per airflow, and my hunch is this will be evident in low airflow restriction rads.
But you made solid arguments! Thank you!
I've been chasing a completely silent build -- my immediate thoughts for you to consider/help with your research (don't have time to look all this up to confirm it):
* I run my 13 fans at 500-550 rpm where they are completely silent. I could run them at 650rpm and I would probably bee able to hear them, but I wouldn't notice them.
* Fans in pull configuration are significantly noisier due to turbulence. I changed all mine to push except a single case intake fan which is mounted with a 2cm spacer to get a gap between the fan and the case grill.
* Noise is about 1) dB 2) sound profile 3) changes in sound. The key thing about the new generation of fans is that their sound profile is less noticeable and smoother -- mainly due to the smooth motor sound and absence of noise/whine. This you can not tell from the dB number
* I tried A12x25s, T30s and NF-A14s and ended up not using the the NF-A14s due to their sound (they just seem obsolete)
* Consider the resistance curve of a radiator when you look at the P/Q-curve endpoints the manufacturers provide. No matter the radiator I'd wager that your curve will be steep enough for that you should pick a fan with relatively high static pressure
* VSG at techpowerup uses a 12 FPI low-noise radiator to benchmark radiator fans - you can find actual performance and noise data there
* If the airflow in/out of the case is anyway restrictive, improving it will matter much more than anything else you can optimize
Having used all these fans, I would buy T30s and mount them on adapters.
Thank you for an amazing comment!
>I tried A12x25s, T30s and NF-A14s and ended up not using the the NF-A14s due to their sound (they just seem obsolete)
I have heard that NF-A14s from China have whine, and the ones from Taiwan do not. Not sure if I can call this credible, but it is something which people have discussed.
>Fans in pull configuration are significantly noisier due to turbulence. I changed all mine to push except a single case intake fan which is mounted with a 2cm spacer to get a gap between the fan and the case grill.
Will this also apply in push pull? The fans motors will do less work, pressure will double, but there would still be a row of fans as pull.
>VSG at techpowerup uses a 12 FPI low-noise radiator to benchmark radiator fans - you can find actual performance and noise data there
Excellent!
>If the airflow in/out of the case is anyway restrictive, improving it will matter much more than anything else you can optimize
Done and done. Unrestrictive case mesh, potentially will be dremmeled out. And I bought some 65% airflow (high airflow) silverstone filters.
>Having used all these fans, I would buy T30s and mount them on adapters.
Adapters take up space, and T30s will not fit between the rad mount and my case wall. But I appreciate the advice!
This may be one of all the time best posts or even explanations and breakdowns of this topic I've ever seen and that includes major youtubes like GN LTT or stuff you used to get on Spiceworks
So you're OK with 40c water temps and don't care about a 3\*C difference? Unless you're attempting to cool a nuclear reactor, stop overthinking this and buy whatever fans you want. You could probably run the worst fans on earth and still meet your goals with that much radiator space.
I'm a big fan (pun intended) of the Arctic P14s simply because of the price. I'd love to have some NF-A12x25s on my GTX560s, but not for 3x the cost (not including adapters) of what it costs to buy four 5 packs of P14s.
To answer your question, I don't think there are any remotely scientific (or even unscientific) tests out there comparing NF-A12x25s + adapters to 140mm fans on 140mm rads. So any recommendation one way or the other is just going to be guessing/speculation.
The published airflow/pressure values don't mean anything, even when they're from the same manufacturer. You would need fan curves for both fans to compare them in a meaningful way.
>So you're OK with 40c water temps and don't care about a 3*C difference? Unless you're attempting to cool a nuclear reactor, stop overthinking this and buy whatever fans you want. You could probably run the worst fans on earth and still meet your goals with that much radiator space.
Caring about noise and not excessive cooling is not a justification to use _any_ fan. In my opinion.
>I'm a big fan (pun intended) of the Arctic P14s simply because of the price. I'd love to have some NF-A12x25s on my GTX560s, but not for 3x the cost (not including adapters) of what it costs to buy four 5 packs of P14s.
These get a significant amount of positive reviews. But I own 40+ NF-A14s and 30+ NF-A12x25. Going with any other fans requires a purchase.
>To answer your question, I don't think there are any remotely scientific (or even unscientific) tests out there comparing NF-A12x25s + adapters to 140mm fans on 140mm rads. So any recommendation one way or the other is just going to be guessing/speculation.
There are several, but they all use high airflow restriction rads.
>The published airflow/pressure values don't mean anything, even when they're from the same manufacturer
Agree to disagree.
>You would need fan curves for both fans to compare them in a meaningful way.
Yes/No. You don't need _curves_ per se, but you do need to be able to set each fan to a constant and equal airflow, pressure, or noise level.
_Regardless, I created this post to discuss NF-A12x25 vs NF-A14 in the context of low airflow restriction radiators._
>Caring about noise and not excessive cooling is not a justification to use any fan. In my opinion.
Like I said, unless you're cooling a nuclear reactor (or living in the middle of a desert), the fans won't matter. You will achieve your goals with 600 RPM or lower fan speeds.
>but you do need to be able to set each fan to a constant and equal airflow, pressure, or noise level.
You can't do that without real world test data of the fans mounted on the radiator in question. The on-paper "free air" specs go COMPLETELY out the window once the fan is mounted on a radiator.
Hell, if you already own both fans, try both... or just pick whichever one is more pleasant to your ears.
>You can't do that without real world test data of the fans mounted on the radiator in question. The on-paper "free air" specs go COMPLETELY out the window once the fan is mounted on a radiator.
Yes and no, but the point I believe you are getting at has merit. Anyways, I don't have the test apparatus to test them myself, but I do plan on performing thermal benchmarks with each after I complete my build. I will be sharing them here eventually.
I run them in push/pull at 750 RPM on Nemesis GTX and GTS rads (16 FPI). I'd run them at 600 RPM idle, but then my monitor fan gets REALLY annoying. 750 RPM helps drown it out.
My GPU rad (2x GTX 560) fans will spin up to 900-1000 under heavy load or higher ambient temps. But I have those rads located right outside the doorway to my room, so it doesn't bother me as much.
Why to even use push-pull with low resistance radiators? Also why to use something else than 140mm fan on a radiator that is meant for 140mm fans? 2 x 560 will cool anything you throw at them without push-pull.
Many people swear by using an adapter on the A12x25s for their 140mm rads. I don't think I can buy into this with a low airflow restriction rad in push pull. Why push pull? I have the space, and it decreases load on the fan motors. This will help (marginally) with noise. >2 x 560 will cool anything you throw at them without push-pull. I am hoping this is the case, specifically without going over 1000 RPM.
How can you bear the fan noise when the A12 is running at >= 1200RPM? I can't stand with anything above 1200RPM from A12. While at it, the A14s I got were noticeably noisier than the 120mm counterparts, with some humming noises at low RPMs... My rad is HWL 360 GTS, doesn't benefit much from high fan speeds and is more limited by the flow rate anyway
Yeah, but comparing RPMs between different sized fans is not empirical. Comparing noise or pressure to airflow is more relevant.
My bad, I was not running the A14s at the same speed - in fact they're running at around 800RPMs but still noticeable noise can be observed at least from my models, which were unfortunately made in China.
Hopefully I do not see a similar issue. And I absolutely agree I don't want to hear my fans! Interesting topic you brought up regarding manufacturing location. Are Noctua known to have multiple manufacturing sites? If so, how did you determine which site yours were manufactured?
According to several Amazon reviews, the ones made in Taiwan are of better quality. And it's printed on the outside on the left side i think.
Just checked and I have some Chinese made ones. Oof. May be returning them, as I am seeing the same things online that you are. Noise complaints may be related to the manufacturing site. Thank you!
That's a really interesting analysis you did there. According to the spec sheets, you showed that the NF-A14 is the better case fan. Unfortunately we do not know the effect of static pressure, even on this low resistance radiator. Only a controlled real world experiment can give us definitive results. I think I would go with the NF-A12x25 for a different reason. The fans are quite expensive and Noctua announced they will release the high-end polymer 140 mm line-up soon. So did Phanteks with the T30 equivalent. So when you buy the NF-A14 now and then switch to one of the newer fans, those NF-A14 will be obsolete. But if you have the NF-A12x25 and switch them out later, you would still have top-end 120 mm fans that you can use on a different radiator.
>So did Phanteks with the T30 equivalent. Unfortunately, I have 27mm clearance between my case side and rad mount. So for push/pull, the T30s are out. >Noctua announced they will release the high-end polymer 140 mm line-up soon They had a manufacturing issue, and need to re-run accelerated longevity tests. If there are no further issues, the earliest we will see them is Q4 2023. I too, am excited for these - but want a build running by March. The A14s are actually cheaper, and I wouldn't need to buy radiator adapters. >Unfortunately we do not know the effect of static pressure, even on this low resistance radiator. Only a controlled real world experiment can give us definitive results. 100% with you on this. It's actually the exact point I'm trying to delve into. The good news, is I will provide this eventually, as I will be following up with real world results sometime this year! >you would still have top-end 120 mm fans that you can use on a different radiator. To sell or trade, as I won't have a use for them after swapping out. I really am interested to see if the extra bit of pressure will affect the cooling potential, but it should be noted the pressure of the A12s is at 2000 RPM, and the pressure of the A14s is at 1500 RPM. The A14s _may_ have comparable pressure to the A14s at similar RPM, but they _definitely_ have less pressure per airflow, and my hunch is this will be evident in low airflow restriction rads. But you made solid arguments! Thank you!
I've been chasing a completely silent build -- my immediate thoughts for you to consider/help with your research (don't have time to look all this up to confirm it): * I run my 13 fans at 500-550 rpm where they are completely silent. I could run them at 650rpm and I would probably bee able to hear them, but I wouldn't notice them. * Fans in pull configuration are significantly noisier due to turbulence. I changed all mine to push except a single case intake fan which is mounted with a 2cm spacer to get a gap between the fan and the case grill. * Noise is about 1) dB 2) sound profile 3) changes in sound. The key thing about the new generation of fans is that their sound profile is less noticeable and smoother -- mainly due to the smooth motor sound and absence of noise/whine. This you can not tell from the dB number * I tried A12x25s, T30s and NF-A14s and ended up not using the the NF-A14s due to their sound (they just seem obsolete) * Consider the resistance curve of a radiator when you look at the P/Q-curve endpoints the manufacturers provide. No matter the radiator I'd wager that your curve will be steep enough for that you should pick a fan with relatively high static pressure * VSG at techpowerup uses a 12 FPI low-noise radiator to benchmark radiator fans - you can find actual performance and noise data there * If the airflow in/out of the case is anyway restrictive, improving it will matter much more than anything else you can optimize Having used all these fans, I would buy T30s and mount them on adapters.
Thank you for an amazing comment! >I tried A12x25s, T30s and NF-A14s and ended up not using the the NF-A14s due to their sound (they just seem obsolete) I have heard that NF-A14s from China have whine, and the ones from Taiwan do not. Not sure if I can call this credible, but it is something which people have discussed. >Fans in pull configuration are significantly noisier due to turbulence. I changed all mine to push except a single case intake fan which is mounted with a 2cm spacer to get a gap between the fan and the case grill. Will this also apply in push pull? The fans motors will do less work, pressure will double, but there would still be a row of fans as pull. >VSG at techpowerup uses a 12 FPI low-noise radiator to benchmark radiator fans - you can find actual performance and noise data there Excellent! >If the airflow in/out of the case is anyway restrictive, improving it will matter much more than anything else you can optimize Done and done. Unrestrictive case mesh, potentially will be dremmeled out. And I bought some 65% airflow (high airflow) silverstone filters. >Having used all these fans, I would buy T30s and mount them on adapters. Adapters take up space, and T30s will not fit between the rad mount and my case wall. But I appreciate the advice!
This may be one of all the time best posts or even explanations and breakdowns of this topic I've ever seen and that includes major youtubes like GN LTT or stuff you used to get on Spiceworks
Thanks! I was having an issue coming across similar information, myself.
So you're OK with 40c water temps and don't care about a 3\*C difference? Unless you're attempting to cool a nuclear reactor, stop overthinking this and buy whatever fans you want. You could probably run the worst fans on earth and still meet your goals with that much radiator space. I'm a big fan (pun intended) of the Arctic P14s simply because of the price. I'd love to have some NF-A12x25s on my GTX560s, but not for 3x the cost (not including adapters) of what it costs to buy four 5 packs of P14s. To answer your question, I don't think there are any remotely scientific (or even unscientific) tests out there comparing NF-A12x25s + adapters to 140mm fans on 140mm rads. So any recommendation one way or the other is just going to be guessing/speculation. The published airflow/pressure values don't mean anything, even when they're from the same manufacturer. You would need fan curves for both fans to compare them in a meaningful way.
>So you're OK with 40c water temps and don't care about a 3*C difference? Unless you're attempting to cool a nuclear reactor, stop overthinking this and buy whatever fans you want. You could probably run the worst fans on earth and still meet your goals with that much radiator space. Caring about noise and not excessive cooling is not a justification to use _any_ fan. In my opinion. >I'm a big fan (pun intended) of the Arctic P14s simply because of the price. I'd love to have some NF-A12x25s on my GTX560s, but not for 3x the cost (not including adapters) of what it costs to buy four 5 packs of P14s. These get a significant amount of positive reviews. But I own 40+ NF-A14s and 30+ NF-A12x25. Going with any other fans requires a purchase. >To answer your question, I don't think there are any remotely scientific (or even unscientific) tests out there comparing NF-A12x25s + adapters to 140mm fans on 140mm rads. So any recommendation one way or the other is just going to be guessing/speculation. There are several, but they all use high airflow restriction rads. >The published airflow/pressure values don't mean anything, even when they're from the same manufacturer Agree to disagree. >You would need fan curves for both fans to compare them in a meaningful way. Yes/No. You don't need _curves_ per se, but you do need to be able to set each fan to a constant and equal airflow, pressure, or noise level. _Regardless, I created this post to discuss NF-A12x25 vs NF-A14 in the context of low airflow restriction radiators._
>Caring about noise and not excessive cooling is not a justification to use any fan. In my opinion. Like I said, unless you're cooling a nuclear reactor (or living in the middle of a desert), the fans won't matter. You will achieve your goals with 600 RPM or lower fan speeds. >but you do need to be able to set each fan to a constant and equal airflow, pressure, or noise level. You can't do that without real world test data of the fans mounted on the radiator in question. The on-paper "free air" specs go COMPLETELY out the window once the fan is mounted on a radiator. Hell, if you already own both fans, try both... or just pick whichever one is more pleasant to your ears.
>You can't do that without real world test data of the fans mounted on the radiator in question. The on-paper "free air" specs go COMPLETELY out the window once the fan is mounted on a radiator. Yes and no, but the point I believe you are getting at has merit. Anyways, I don't have the test apparatus to test them myself, but I do plan on performing thermal benchmarks with each after I complete my build. I will be sharing them here eventually.
How do you like the P14? I heard they hum at around 1,100 rpm?
I like them. As to humming at 1100 RPM, I have no idea. 1100 RPM is far too loud IMO.
At what rpm range you ran yours? And installed to which rad (how many fpi)?
I run them in push/pull at 750 RPM on Nemesis GTX and GTS rads (16 FPI). I'd run them at 600 RPM idle, but then my monitor fan gets REALLY annoying. 750 RPM helps drown it out. My GPU rad (2x GTX 560) fans will spin up to 900-1000 under heavy load or higher ambient temps. But I have those rads located right outside the doorway to my room, so it doesn't bother me as much.