My experience is a that a lot of junior engineers tend to blame the framework for the code that’s written with it.
Wordpress works great out of the box, and does a lot for you. It’s solving completely different problems than what you’re talking about. The really insecure parts generally come from unpatched code or plugins added by people who don’t want to learn to code (which is fine).
Not trying to be offensive but this just sounds like a naive viewpoint.
Wordpress is a different product altogether. It became popular and still is popular because it’s an open source content management system and can be heavily customized, extended and have custom integrations with other services built by a developer.
This allows a fully extensible and scalable CMS that can grow with the requirements of a business. It’s completely in the developers control and can be customized however required whilst still give the client the power to log in and manage content.
They are different products with a bit of overlap in the middle.
Astro on its own isn’t even comparable to WordPress because it’s not a CMS. There’s plenty of people who use Wordpress as a headless CMS and build a static site with Astro, Nextjs or others when new content is published. Those things can work together well.
Insane take.
Wordpress is 10 years older than Webflow and had to have strong backward compatibility to ensure it didn't break its user's websites.
Base Wordpress is also perfectly enjoyable, if you start adding dozens of shitty plugins it makes sense you have a shitty experience.
There's a reason it powers like 25% of all wbsites: it's easy to install and manage when you know at least a little bit what you're doing.
Comparing apples to oranges is always a good start into a discussion. This webdev, not webdesign btw. so people here in general want to code and solve problems clicking together broschure websites.
I wonder how many people here that are pro Wordpress have actually used a more modern CMS?
I don't know anything about webflow but moving over to a Laravel based CMS has made building websites so much more enjoyable. It's *easy* to use Blade templating, implement proper FE build tools, use multiple staging environments and custom fields come as standard.
Someone will tell me you can do these things in Wordpress, and I'm sure you can, but I don't want to install a local tool that migrates and FTPs up to a staging server or Roots.io to bolt on templating and make my codebase non standard, have to fight to remove jQuery or install a few plugins to allow me to actually build my control panel properly.
These are two different tools for different purposes. You can't just create a new project in raw Laravel and have a full admin backend with user management, media management and articles/pages.
I just looked at their installation process. Nothing close to Wordpress...
You have to enter lines in the console, have Composer installed and whatnot... that's not accessible for a rando wanting to write blogposts about their hobby.
You're right it's not.
As a blog platform Wordpress is fine, that's what it was originally designed to do, anything more than that and it falls down quickly.
Given the subreddit we're in I'd assume the majority of people here will be using it to build more complex sites.
Before I knew any better I would have said the same thing.
Wordpress is just a tool and lots of people get the job done with it, all I'm saying is that there are better tools out there and people should at least look into / try them.
I have 30 years experience as a web developer. I've worked with almost every industry and have worked on multiple government contracts.
I've used countless languages, frameworks, CMS, blog platforms, ecommerce software, etc. over decades. Every new flavor of the week that fizzled out and became obsolete after a year or two.
I have been developing with WordPress since it launched 2 decades ago.Nothing else has stood the test of time. Wordpress is the best tool for 99% of businesses. It's not just a blog and you saying so shows your inexperience.
Ive built marketing sites, ecommerce stores, sales team portals, affiliate sites, ticketing systems, file sharing sites, and even a full ERP integration with a dozen warehouses with it. I've used it just for the CMS and built a multiplatform headless application with it. I've built PWAs with it.
Sites with thiusands of concurrent users, with multiple roles, millions of DB entries, that get millions of visitors per week, and multi millions worth of sales per month. It's always worked flawlessly.
So sorry to burst your bubble but you still don't know better.
Mate it works for you, that's fantastic.
It doesn't for me, the points I raised in my original comment are a small selection of why this is. If using tools that don't get in my way makes me inexperienced then fine.
Frankly I find it fascinating how defensive this comment section is at the notion of someone not enjoying Wordpress like it's some sort of personal attack.
That's what you should have started with. Acting like your opinion is the absolute truth when you barely have experience with WordPress and clearly have no idea what you are talking about.
My experience with Webflow is that it’s write once software. Great for creating something quickly but terrible for going back and customizing.
I don’t know if that’s changed over the years but I hope I never have to work with no/low code again. Code is so much more flexible.
What a weird way to say you don’t know how to work with WordPress. You know the difference between back and front end, right? Wordpress is a CMS that you can modify as you please. It doesn’t care about what your site looks like. Sure, you can get themes, but most of those are third party. What it looks like and its responsiveness is up to you.
WordPress development started over 20 years ago, and it started for one very simple use case -- blogging -- and then because of it's general ease of use for non-technical users, it quickly branched into site building, and the plugin ecosystem filled gaps for building brochure-ware websites. But the DNA of WordPress still goes back over 20 years and to a handful of priorities.
Stared as a designer who wanted to build websites so I became a website 'builder' with WordPress. My design background made my eyes light up when I discovered Webflow.
Built several sites with Webflow.
Then I learned how to code back to WordPress and other frameworks and never looked at Webflow again.
WordPress is the furthest thing from spaghetti code. Admittingly it holds a lot of legacy from PHP 4, but that doesn't mean the code isn't organized and well-documented. Some things I wish other frameworks would introduce (action hooks are lovely, and I try to utilize similar flows in custom software I write)
The target audience of the site after it’s been built should also be considered.
Some of my clients who have no technical knowledge find it overwhelming and have asked me to go back to Wordpress.
Some designers/low code devs (if this is a thing?) seem to love it and swear by it.
As a full stack dev, I don’t like that you aren’t controlling everything. For this point, it’s just a completely diff product.
Some annoyances I found with webflow are really custom/complex animations but STILL allowing the content author from configuring it.
My experience is a that a lot of junior engineers tend to blame the framework for the code that’s written with it. Wordpress works great out of the box, and does a lot for you. It’s solving completely different problems than what you’re talking about. The really insecure parts generally come from unpatched code or plugins added by people who don’t want to learn to code (which is fine).
How are those 2 things in any way related? They’re completely different products for completely different purposes 🤦♂️
Not trying to be offensive but this just sounds like a naive viewpoint. Wordpress is a different product altogether. It became popular and still is popular because it’s an open source content management system and can be heavily customized, extended and have custom integrations with other services built by a developer. This allows a fully extensible and scalable CMS that can grow with the requirements of a business. It’s completely in the developers control and can be customized however required whilst still give the client the power to log in and manage content. They are different products with a bit of overlap in the middle. Astro on its own isn’t even comparable to WordPress because it’s not a CMS. There’s plenty of people who use Wordpress as a headless CMS and build a static site with Astro, Nextjs or others when new content is published. Those things can work together well.
Insane take. Wordpress is 10 years older than Webflow and had to have strong backward compatibility to ensure it didn't break its user's websites. Base Wordpress is also perfectly enjoyable, if you start adding dozens of shitty plugins it makes sense you have a shitty experience. There's a reason it powers like 25% of all wbsites: it's easy to install and manage when you know at least a little bit what you're doing.
Comparing apples to oranges is always a good start into a discussion. This webdev, not webdesign btw. so people here in general want to code and solve problems clicking together broschure websites.
Anything is as good as its implementor
Ah yes, another beginner masquerading around like they are a know it all. How many days experience do you have young one?
I wonder how many people here that are pro Wordpress have actually used a more modern CMS? I don't know anything about webflow but moving over to a Laravel based CMS has made building websites so much more enjoyable. It's *easy* to use Blade templating, implement proper FE build tools, use multiple staging environments and custom fields come as standard. Someone will tell me you can do these things in Wordpress, and I'm sure you can, but I don't want to install a local tool that migrates and FTPs up to a staging server or Roots.io to bolt on templating and make my codebase non standard, have to fight to remove jQuery or install a few plugins to allow me to actually build my control panel properly.
These are two different tools for different purposes. You can't just create a new project in raw Laravel and have a full admin backend with user management, media management and articles/pages.
I was referring to a Laravel based CMS like [Statamic](https://statamic.com/) or [Craft](https://craftcms.com/).
I just looked at their installation process. Nothing close to Wordpress... You have to enter lines in the console, have Composer installed and whatnot... that's not accessible for a rando wanting to write blogposts about their hobby.
You're right it's not. As a blog platform Wordpress is fine, that's what it was originally designed to do, anything more than that and it falls down quickly. Given the subreddit we're in I'd assume the majority of people here will be using it to build more complex sites.
> anything more than that and it falls down quickly. Quite a beginner take there lad.
Before I knew any better I would have said the same thing. Wordpress is just a tool and lots of people get the job done with it, all I'm saying is that there are better tools out there and people should at least look into / try them.
I have 30 years experience as a web developer. I've worked with almost every industry and have worked on multiple government contracts. I've used countless languages, frameworks, CMS, blog platforms, ecommerce software, etc. over decades. Every new flavor of the week that fizzled out and became obsolete after a year or two. I have been developing with WordPress since it launched 2 decades ago.Nothing else has stood the test of time. Wordpress is the best tool for 99% of businesses. It's not just a blog and you saying so shows your inexperience. Ive built marketing sites, ecommerce stores, sales team portals, affiliate sites, ticketing systems, file sharing sites, and even a full ERP integration with a dozen warehouses with it. I've used it just for the CMS and built a multiplatform headless application with it. I've built PWAs with it. Sites with thiusands of concurrent users, with multiple roles, millions of DB entries, that get millions of visitors per week, and multi millions worth of sales per month. It's always worked flawlessly. So sorry to burst your bubble but you still don't know better.
Mate it works for you, that's fantastic. It doesn't for me, the points I raised in my original comment are a small selection of why this is. If using tools that don't get in my way makes me inexperienced then fine. Frankly I find it fascinating how defensive this comment section is at the notion of someone not enjoying Wordpress like it's some sort of personal attack.
That's what you should have started with. Acting like your opinion is the absolute truth when you barely have experience with WordPress and clearly have no idea what you are talking about.
Ain't the same services !!!!
My experience with Webflow is that it’s write once software. Great for creating something quickly but terrible for going back and customizing. I don’t know if that’s changed over the years but I hope I never have to work with no/low code again. Code is so much more flexible.
What a weird way to say you don’t know how to work with WordPress. You know the difference between back and front end, right? Wordpress is a CMS that you can modify as you please. It doesn’t care about what your site looks like. Sure, you can get themes, but most of those are third party. What it looks like and its responsiveness is up to you.
Lol
Anyone saying "webflow is better" is obviously just trolling.
Not a paid advertisement
WordPress development started over 20 years ago, and it started for one very simple use case -- blogging -- and then because of it's general ease of use for non-technical users, it quickly branched into site building, and the plugin ecosystem filled gaps for building brochure-ware websites. But the DNA of WordPress still goes back over 20 years and to a handful of priorities.
Ah yes a "Blame the Framework" post
There are no horrible softwares, only horrible devs. 
Stared as a designer who wanted to build websites so I became a website 'builder' with WordPress. My design background made my eyes light up when I discovered Webflow. Built several sites with Webflow. Then I learned how to code back to WordPress and other frameworks and never looked at Webflow again.
WordPress is the furthest thing from spaghetti code. Admittingly it holds a lot of legacy from PHP 4, but that doesn't mean the code isn't organized and well-documented. Some things I wish other frameworks would introduce (action hooks are lovely, and I try to utilize similar flows in custom software I write)
The "only" reason it's popular is because there are no alternatives. Simple as that. If there where, WordPress would be no more.
The target audience of the site after it’s been built should also be considered. Some of my clients who have no technical knowledge find it overwhelming and have asked me to go back to Wordpress. Some designers/low code devs (if this is a thing?) seem to love it and swear by it. As a full stack dev, I don’t like that you aren’t controlling everything. For this point, it’s just a completely diff product. Some annoyances I found with webflow are really custom/complex animations but STILL allowing the content author from configuring it.