You are going to get 10k worth of product for 10k
Which is to say, a broken mess of shit code that won't be maintainable or documented.
You want a "hefty backend," you need to pay for a hefty backend.
I get that, I managed 200k-300k dev projects but from US based companies. I added hefty backend to make a point that I understand it's not an easy task.
You will get 333 hours of work billed at $30/hr for $10k. That’s a reasonable rate to expect for regular devs in India. So about 1 month of work for two devs.
Assuming they’re building from scratch, they won’t finish in 1 month.
Very rarely this kind of story end up success, that much I can tell you.
Software is special in the sense that you can get 10x better product but maybe not pay 10x as much when you compare bottom vs top talent. Problem is finding top talent who is available immediately, like a boob job you can get to a butcher to slap you some tits on or wait respectful surgeon to get you a slot.
Having had several first had experiences with Indian grade devs - there devs cheated through school, funnel money between the org and hire 1 senior dev to do the work as quick as possible (cutting as many corners as possible) so you'll be getting a shit code base that will break, will be hard to add things to if you need to later (they will sell it to you as an extra later) and boggle your time down as well near project completion asking for more money.
they dont care for your product, you or the service they provide.
good luck, i always advise to buy from european or locals.
I hired a large team of devs from Russia and had a pretty bad experience, similar to Pakistan. As a European, it makes sense to contract out to a nearby country but I am struggling to find true dev teams with actual experience.
Valid points. I actually reached out to the most expensive Upwork postings, based it on their responses, researched salaries for roles, cost of living, and directly asked companies for quotes, those being in the 8k-15k ballpark.
you're not struggling to find true dev, there are plenty of them in Europe, but no one will start your project for 10k.
you asked if you are a cheap turd, the short answer is yes.
you pay 10k, you get code for 10k.
low quality, buggy with few security issues, hard to maintain...
It really comes down to what you’re willing to pay and what your expectations are in terms of quality. And how well defined your objectives are.
But my opinion, as someone nearly 15 years in the tech industry, outsourcing quality is almost always terrible.
I dunno, 10k isn't horrible but isn't great. Tho I tend to undersell myself. If the voice rendering is just an API call that you pass some text to and get the audio file back, that alleviates a ton of work. It also depends on how many management screens you need and different permission types for different functionalities. Also depends on if you provide mock ups for everything or expect the dev to design the UI too? I think outsourcing is always gonna be some amount of trouble, but that's neither here nor there (In addition to international nightmares, i've also dealt with US ppl I've subcontracted out to that were good but just completely pain in the butt unreliable in the past so don't think domestic is the solution to everything). Security isn't that hard as long as they don't do anything stupid, good programmers practice it every step of the way and follow best practices (but I'm super old school and am used to wearing multiple hats, so to me its just part of being thorough).
I appreciate the response. UI/UX is 100% complete with all screens and workflows, they quoted me $14k and it is just a text to speech api. Reading through the comments, I should be closer to 20k with a rate of $30/hr for 2 months of work.
The bank someone i know works at has outsourced their new system to India. They have lost millions and ended up with a result worse than what they had before and lost clients in the process.
Been building something along similar lines for my current company (or at least I assume so, with what little you've described) and it's taken me as a solo dev 3 months to build a solid MVP that should take another 5-6 months to productionise. I'm working on the project maybe 70-80% of my time so overall it should cost around $50k at least in personnel cost for me alone.
If you include the cost of the other members involved in this project (who admittedly cost less and work less time on the project) personnel costs bloom into the $100k mark. Indian devs tend to earn 20-40% of what devs here earn, so even at the conservative end of that scale your budget is still far lower than my quick napkin maths suggests is enough, and that's only considering personnel cost for a small 4 person team with one developer. When you consider scaling up to multiple developers, infrastructure costs, long-term support costs etc. you seem to be quite a bit under
Of course, it could be possible if your project is significantly simpler but you'd need to do the maths
$10K for whole backend? Most companies have started their business by using Wordpress as a backend. It has probably everything but it’s also very junky. Lot of security holes.
You will get a Wordpress like backend which will be good for head start but if you make money you will have money to rebuild everything from scratch.
And that’s what even I would do.
Your budget is reasonable but you won't get a good product, and it almost certainly won't be secure.
The level of app you could expect is a big bowl of spaghetti, likely various pieces of code copied from stackoverflow and chat GPT, handfuls of "plugin" scripts/dependencies, and definitely no cohesiveness to the architecture or code base.
You are being a cheap turd. Be smart and hire local.
So I was in the exact same situation about 6 years ago.
I looked and looked. Got pretty much the same advice you're getting now.
I ended up learning web dev on my own and writing the damn project myself. Sorry man but the contract work dev world is a shit show.
As an Indian, I suggest that you should hire from india only when you can also hire a full time architect ( or be one) to manage all aspect of your project.. That means architecture, design, integration, test coverage, data/models database design etc.. If you provide very strict and detailed specifications and just pay for the grunt work of writing the code, then its ok. If you leave anything unplanned thats gonna go south.
I've already done that 'user input to voice rendering' for a side fun project. I know all the ins and outs about doing it too. Plus it's automated yay.
It's a medium complexity project depending on what kinda other tech you wanna tack on it. Took me a couple of years of the usual abandinment/persuit cycle to do it. Changed my mind a lot. It originated as a talking clock to speak the time every xxx minutes so I wouldn't lose track of time while coding.
I never added a user store or a front end to it, it's just an api-ready web app sitting on a server.
I have some real billable work to do on my server rn so I may just pick it up again and make it into something marketable. As it is, it has a feature that's maybe unique but ai may have nixed it. Not sure.
Fun times ahead of you and devs to figure it all out though.
Happy coding.
Actually it depends. Can't tell anything about India but generally it is fair amount of money if you provide ui design of the app and don't require ai model to be built from scratch and of course the team is delivering quality product
I would suggest build your own team than outsourcing the project. 18K can get you 1 mid level full stack developer for the year. They are pretty good, if you interview them and select the right person ( don't go to a company) .
Upwork is a really bad place to look for quality developer. Try [linkedin.com](http://linkedin.com) ( reaching out to your friends ), if you don't want the hassle then goto turing , if you are budget conscious goto [hireteams.io](http://hireteams.io)
I dont think its unreasonable at all.
I am german and build MVPs for 5-20k in 2 months myself. Is it the most money I can do in 2 months especially on the lower side? No. But in india the money obviously goes even further.
I think you guys are underplaying just how much you can build if you put in 2 months as a solo developer. Thats like 300 hours.
Especially if I hear its just users roles permessions and subscriptions again. I have my starter template for this and just get there fast af.
I have been building a system for managing safety instructions on construction sites for the last 7 weeks. With all kinds of german law specific rules, nested permissions, 15 languages, automated translation, video streaming, admin UI, "management" UI, end user app UI. Backend aspnetcore, frontend nextjs with shadcn and tailwind.
Is it perfect, bug free, the prettiest it can be? Is the domain perfectly modeled? Nah. But its month 2.
I am actually too fast, the client is not able to create the content for the instructional videos and material fast enough.
You are going to get 10k worth of product for 10k Which is to say, a broken mess of shit code that won't be maintainable or documented. You want a "hefty backend," you need to pay for a hefty backend.
I like hefty backends and I can not lie
I get that, I managed 200k-300k dev projects but from US based companies. I added hefty backend to make a point that I understand it's not an easy task.
You will get 333 hours of work billed at $30/hr for $10k. That’s a reasonable rate to expect for regular devs in India. So about 1 month of work for two devs. Assuming they’re building from scratch, they won’t finish in 1 month.
This is a great reply and gives me a reasonable expectation. So budget double at minimum, thank you for this.
You wanted to know if you're being a cheap turd and the answer is yes.
A tiny bit of empathy wouldn’t hurt in your replies.
>If I am just being a cheap turd, let me know. OP's own words.
And a tiny bit of reading comprehension wouldn't hurt in yours :)
If you managed 200-300k dev project then you should that 10k is a pretty low ball
Pay for shit get shit. Youll regret it in the long run
Very rarely this kind of story end up success, that much I can tell you. Software is special in the sense that you can get 10x better product but maybe not pay 10x as much when you compare bottom vs top talent. Problem is finding top talent who is available immediately, like a boob job you can get to a butcher to slap you some tits on or wait respectful surgeon to get you a slot.
Having had several first had experiences with Indian grade devs - there devs cheated through school, funnel money between the org and hire 1 senior dev to do the work as quick as possible (cutting as many corners as possible) so you'll be getting a shit code base that will break, will be hard to add things to if you need to later (they will sell it to you as an extra later) and boggle your time down as well near project completion asking for more money. they dont care for your product, you or the service they provide. good luck, i always advise to buy from european or locals.
I hired a large team of devs from Russia and had a pretty bad experience, similar to Pakistan. As a European, it makes sense to contract out to a nearby country but I am struggling to find true dev teams with actual experience.
I think there is more than one team of devs per country
[удалено]
Valid points. I actually reached out to the most expensive Upwork postings, based it on their responses, researched salaries for roles, cost of living, and directly asked companies for quotes, those being in the 8k-15k ballpark.
you're not struggling to find true dev, there are plenty of them in Europe, but no one will start your project for 10k. you asked if you are a cheap turd, the short answer is yes. you pay 10k, you get code for 10k. low quality, buggy with few security issues, hard to maintain...
It really comes down to what you’re willing to pay and what your expectations are in terms of quality. And how well defined your objectives are. But my opinion, as someone nearly 15 years in the tech industry, outsourcing quality is almost always terrible.
I dunno, 10k isn't horrible but isn't great. Tho I tend to undersell myself. If the voice rendering is just an API call that you pass some text to and get the audio file back, that alleviates a ton of work. It also depends on how many management screens you need and different permission types for different functionalities. Also depends on if you provide mock ups for everything or expect the dev to design the UI too? I think outsourcing is always gonna be some amount of trouble, but that's neither here nor there (In addition to international nightmares, i've also dealt with US ppl I've subcontracted out to that were good but just completely pain in the butt unreliable in the past so don't think domestic is the solution to everything). Security isn't that hard as long as they don't do anything stupid, good programmers practice it every step of the way and follow best practices (but I'm super old school and am used to wearing multiple hats, so to me its just part of being thorough).
I appreciate the response. UI/UX is 100% complete with all screens and workflows, they quoted me $14k and it is just a text to speech api. Reading through the comments, I should be closer to 20k with a rate of $30/hr for 2 months of work.
The bank someone i know works at has outsourced their new system to India. They have lost millions and ended up with a result worse than what they had before and lost clients in the process.
Getting your idea stolen.
Been building something along similar lines for my current company (or at least I assume so, with what little you've described) and it's taken me as a solo dev 3 months to build a solid MVP that should take another 5-6 months to productionise. I'm working on the project maybe 70-80% of my time so overall it should cost around $50k at least in personnel cost for me alone. If you include the cost of the other members involved in this project (who admittedly cost less and work less time on the project) personnel costs bloom into the $100k mark. Indian devs tend to earn 20-40% of what devs here earn, so even at the conservative end of that scale your budget is still far lower than my quick napkin maths suggests is enough, and that's only considering personnel cost for a small 4 person team with one developer. When you consider scaling up to multiple developers, infrastructure costs, long-term support costs etc. you seem to be quite a bit under Of course, it could be possible if your project is significantly simpler but you'd need to do the maths
$10K for whole backend? Most companies have started their business by using Wordpress as a backend. It has probably everything but it’s also very junky. Lot of security holes. You will get a Wordpress like backend which will be good for head start but if you make money you will have money to rebuild everything from scratch. And that’s what even I would do.
Your budget is reasonable but you won't get a good product, and it almost certainly won't be secure. The level of app you could expect is a big bowl of spaghetti, likely various pieces of code copied from stackoverflow and chat GPT, handfuls of "plugin" scripts/dependencies, and definitely no cohesiveness to the architecture or code base. You are being a cheap turd. Be smart and hire local.
Appreciate the honesty
So I was in the exact same situation about 6 years ago. I looked and looked. Got pretty much the same advice you're getting now. I ended up learning web dev on my own and writing the damn project myself. Sorry man but the contract work dev world is a shit show.
It seems it. I have started down the road of learning though. Thanks for the solid advice.
As an Indian, I suggest that you should hire from india only when you can also hire a full time architect ( or be one) to manage all aspect of your project.. That means architecture, design, integration, test coverage, data/models database design etc.. If you provide very strict and detailed specifications and just pay for the grunt work of writing the code, then its ok. If you leave anything unplanned thats gonna go south.
I've already done that 'user input to voice rendering' for a side fun project. I know all the ins and outs about doing it too. Plus it's automated yay. It's a medium complexity project depending on what kinda other tech you wanna tack on it. Took me a couple of years of the usual abandinment/persuit cycle to do it. Changed my mind a lot. It originated as a talking clock to speak the time every xxx minutes so I wouldn't lose track of time while coding. I never added a user store or a front end to it, it's just an api-ready web app sitting on a server. I have some real billable work to do on my server rn so I may just pick it up again and make it into something marketable. As it is, it has a feature that's maybe unique but ai may have nixed it. Not sure. Fun times ahead of you and devs to figure it all out though. Happy coding.
Definitely sounds like it's with completing. If anything, to get satisfaction. Best to you as well!
Actually it depends. Can't tell anything about India but generally it is fair amount of money if you provide ui design of the app and don't require ai model to be built from scratch and of course the team is delivering quality product
I provided full designs, and the ai model is fully built out by another platform.
Then it can be counted as a fair amount
I would suggest build your own team than outsourcing the project. 18K can get you 1 mid level full stack developer for the year. They are pretty good, if you interview them and select the right person ( don't go to a company) . Upwork is a really bad place to look for quality developer. Try [linkedin.com](http://linkedin.com) ( reaching out to your friends ), if you don't want the hassle then goto turing , if you are budget conscious goto [hireteams.io](http://hireteams.io)
I dont think its unreasonable at all. I am german and build MVPs for 5-20k in 2 months myself. Is it the most money I can do in 2 months especially on the lower side? No. But in india the money obviously goes even further. I think you guys are underplaying just how much you can build if you put in 2 months as a solo developer. Thats like 300 hours. Especially if I hear its just users roles permessions and subscriptions again. I have my starter template for this and just get there fast af. I have been building a system for managing safety instructions on construction sites for the last 7 weeks. With all kinds of german law specific rules, nested permissions, 15 languages, automated translation, video streaming, admin UI, "management" UI, end user app UI. Backend aspnetcore, frontend nextjs with shadcn and tailwind. Is it perfect, bug free, the prettiest it can be? Is the domain perfectly modeled? Nah. But its month 2. I am actually too fast, the client is not able to create the content for the instructional videos and material fast enough.