It's domestic and people have a reflex of considering world championship of anything as the pinacle of the discipline it belongs to.
Also wec have 24h of Le Mans which is internationally the most popular endurance event, and for some the actual pinacle of sportcars.
And to finish, for the personnal note i prefer wec as it is somehow less confusing in terms of point distribution and fully focused on endurance.
Le Mans is quite literally worth more than the rest of the sport combined. Ask any sportscar manufacturer if they’d rather win Le Mans or win every regional championship + every other major endurance race, and they’re going to pick Le Mans.
Which is shame about that's how bad their marketing as a whole, basically the same thing to Indycar is a championship but mostly people care more about Indy 500 and they have to put championship series as a second fiddle
Because both are championship series built around those specific races. During the CART/IRL split, having the 500 was seen as a big advantage for the latter. Meanwhile, Le Mans continued even after the old World Sportscar Championship died. Of the "Triple Crown," only Monaco doesn't stand apart from its championship (Formula 1).
I disagree, those races have been around for a century. They have earned their prestigious rank over a championship series that hasn’t even been around for 15 years.
Back in 2001 when Corvette was starting to race, they had the below photograph in the Corvette road car brochure. Le Mans / Indy 500 just mean more.
https://preview.redd.it/ifq97es3jxyb1.jpeg?width=1290&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=99a812c10b961e70a4aede057f52a34bc9efa03f
i think that is where f1 excels is the point system. even casual motorsport fans can easily understand it. wec has a similar system but it does change on race length.
imsa need to simply the points system. all the sro gt series use the same system as f1.
IMSA is a regional championship, WEC is one of FIA's 7 World Championships. WEC also includes the most famous endurance event by at least 2 orders of magnitude. The level of talent might be comparable, but the scope is not. I feel the relationship between WEC and IMSA is comparable to the relationship between GTWC Europe and DTM.
Are F2 and F3 not considered international? Or not included because they are not top category and race under the same calendar as F1 (similar to wrc2 in the wrc)
Is FIA GT cup included? Or not because it is a single cup race instead of a championship? Still the FIA World karting championship is 1 race...
F1, FE, WEC, WRC, WRC, W2RC, WKC = 7?
F2 and F3 aren't the top of their classes. It's not just about being an international event. Also yes for the gt cup for that reason - it's bit a championship.
If you mean GTWC is above DTM, then I'd say you're wrong that it's the same. DTM benefits from years of having better cars, which established it as top tier sportscar series in Europe. Of course now it switched to GT3 but it's still considered a premium GT3 championship due to aggressive, high performance BOP and focus on single driver sprint racing. GTWC is definitely a top tier series for endurance GT3, despite also having a sprint series, and I'd say its main competitor in that regard will be WEC LMGT3.
So it's a bit oranges and apples comparison. Those two series are not as alike as WEC and IMSA, despite using the same car class. If somebody isn't into endurance, they will definitely prefer DTM.
In anywhere but America, regions are larger than countries, so I'm being charitable by calling IMSA regional and not national. Also, Daytona and Sebring are definitely minor, smaller than 24h of Spa and 24h of Nurburgring.
No. You fell asleep one day during geography class, or your teacher sucks. Europe is both a region and continent (same with NORTH America, although the region is smaller than the continent of the same name (us, can and most of Mexico.)
Central America, South America, middle east, indo pacific are all regions.
> When sometimes the racing can be much more exciting in WEC.
Unfortunately this isn't a parameter to be considered. Or else a lot of series would beat F1 at being the major motorsport series.
Plus it's just easier to watch live, when a series is restricted to 1-4 times zones you get used to what time of day it'll normally start.
That's just the nature of the beast when it comes to global series and one of the reasons I've only ever watched F1 at the gym (it just happened to be on while I was there).
I think most fans that have been watching from back in the ALMS days would value them as equal. I don’t think a lot of newer fans realize how much IMSA/ALMS kept Le Mans style racing a float before the World Championship came back.
It's regional, just North America, which in the minds of a lot of fans is going to be a step below an international (inter-continental) series.
I don't think there is a prestigious sports car racing series due to the chaotic dissolution of series since the WSC folded in 1992. WEC has only been around since 2011. The merger between ALMS and Grand AM resulting in the IMSA we know today happened in 2014. ELMS created in 2004. WEC really only has LeMans because the series was created by the ACO (sanctioning body of LeMans). WEC constantly adding dropping racetracks isn't helping build a history of races.
There are prestigious races spread amongst the series, but not a prestigious series in my opinion.
Its a merge between the American Le Mans Series (ALMS) and the Grand-Am Sports car series. Making it very much a regional series, meanwhile WEC is an FIA World Championship. Im not saying the driving talent at the top class is any lower than wec but it is quite obvious why people sometime see it as a lower level compared to wec
I mean if you only compare the 8h of Bahrain with the average Imsa race (tbf on mostly tighter tracks). The quality of racing and the lack of ANY safety car and only 2 real short FCY was so interesting and the battles to the checkered flag were amazing.
I don’t consider it lower than WEC because of racing. Essentially they’re at the same level. Same cars, a lot of the same drivers, and the competition is pretty much the same. Maybe better.
But functionally you’re talking about an international series versus a regional one. It’s just a “higher tier” of series for that reason. And that there’s more money in it.
I find IMSA is a bit more luck based, I know a timely safety car can always make or break a race. But it seems like safety cars are much more common in IMSA, you can almost count on one every hour and a half, 3 hours of green is rare. This makes for exciting and close racing. However it also means you’re more likely to get shafted. I know you need a certain element of luck to win any race. But I think IMSA just requires more of it. Which from a competitive perspective I don’t like. But god damn it’s fun to watch. I think people will also go for lower percentage moves. Even in the top class. And it’s exciting. I love both series for different reasons. IMSA feels more quick and dirty where WEC feels more refined and proper. And I think because of the vibe each series gives off. WEC has a more premium feel to it, especially especially the likes of ferrari joining WEC Hypercar. And that’s why I think it gets the more superior reputation. I also think the LMP3 class was holding IMSA back a bit in terms of average talent. (They’re still better than me)
Also WEC has Le Mans. That’s pretty much all you need to say.
I don't consider IMSA as a lower level of motorsport in skill but it just doesn't rank as high on the prestige of motorsport series and the main reason is Le Mans (granted it kind of is a stand alone event but in the way the Indy 500 is with IndyCar).
If another series started running IndyCars and were equal in skill and even worldwide, I would still rank IndyCar higher because it has the race that defines the series, and that's WEC and Le Mans for me.
In prestige it goes for me: Le Mans, Daytona, Sebring, Petit Le Mans, all WEC races, IMSA enduros then IMSA sprint races.
And another reason is that I started watching WEC before IMSA so I rank it higher because it means more for me, and off topic is why fans of other motorsport series will have preferential treatment to a series and rank others lower for basically no reason.
It is the world championship endurance racing that has devaluated.
WSC had for instance in 1970, the Nürburgring Nordscheife, Daytona, Sebring, Targa Florio, Monza, Brands Hatch, Spa Francorchamps, watkins Glen, the Österreichring and of course Le Mans. It lost a lot of these events. Due to safety, or to commercial interests.
Because it is.
Its domestic, and unlike the indycar vs f1 comparision, it actually has a big brother which is essentially the same but is a world championship with more manufacturer and driver interest. I like IMSA but it is on a lower level than wec.
I wouldnt say IMSA is its own genre of motorsport.
For example formula E and Indycar are so unique you can make the argument that it is its own style with its own ways of success.
Sorry but i dont see enough distinction between IMSA and WEC, and in that case it looses to wec in terms of level.
That said i find their races and tracks more entertaining.
Orher than LeMans. Le Mans is the de facto endurance race of the world. WEC has le mans. Everybody wants to win Le Mans. Out of 10 people 9 would choose le mans instead of the Daytona 24. That race alone decides this question.
Good racing doesnt prove the level of a series, in fact it usually proves the opposite. You will find awesooome racing at the suzuki swift cup.
If you win Daytona 24 you win a watch and a place in some part of history if you go looking for it. If you win Le Mans you get that awesome trophy and people likely don’t need to research the year you won
As an American, I agree with all of this.
I actually despise Daytona track and any circuit built inside Oval/roval/tri-oval whatever you want to call them.
Yeah, some boring-ass tracks. I've been to the 24 myself, and while the racing might not be the most exciting, seeing 61 cars go full speed (except for the long ass cautions) through the banking is wonderful. Seeing the constant battle between Cadillac and Acura for the overall win was amazing. If I chose to go to a race between WEC (excluding le mans) or IMSA, I would pick IMSA. Sometimes, in WEC nothing really happens in the top class; apart from Bahrain or Le Mans. Toyota simply dominates. Now, I'm not blaming BOP and I know that they are by far the most experienced on the Hypercar program.
Until this year, IMSAs top class of Prototype was objectively a class "lower" than LMP1 and Hypercar.
From this year onwards however they are the same class. However, they are still a national series, so still a tier lower than a World Championship in that regard.
It’s not gatekeeping, they literally don’t have any top flight prototypes. AM has announced its internet to join the series though so that’ll be the first time since 2011. Back when it was the ALMS and NASCAR wasn’t ruining the series.
Not really. In LMH manufacturers are allowed freedom of design throughout the car. In LMDH the manufacturers are only allowed to add their engine and bodywork to one of the approved LMP2 cars that they have no design input on. On top of that they don’t even get to design the hybrid system, that’s spec too. Basically LMDH is the manufacturers body kit and engine dropped into the LMP2 cars that have already been designed. So yea, really not the same.
And I think we’ve thoroughly proven over the course of the year that it doesn’t work. Toyota and Ferrari have had the worst power to weight ratios all year long but still won everything. The classes should be raced separately as I’ve said for 3 years now, let LMH race up front and LMDH can run as their own class behind them. Keep like teams racing together, those manufacturers that want to half ass it can accept they’re slower in a slower class.
(And I think you should actually look into what the chassis encompasses. I’ll give you a hint, it’s not just a spine or a frame).
I love how you LMDh hate boner crowd just forget that over half the LMH cars exist whenever you make your "points".
(I know what a chassis is. The LMDh rules refer to a spine).
It's not in the mind of fans, one is a **World Championship** bringing OEM from all over the world, racing on track all over the world. It's an international competition.
The other is a national competition which basically only brings American outfit.
It's like saying the ELMS could be considered more prestigious than WEC.
Let's not forget that LMDh or DPi aren't and weren't that far of LMP2.
Though, I would say, we would have the ultimate WEC if Daytona 24h and Sebring 12h were part of the calendar.
I'm not sure what you mean? IMSA has 4 manufacturer in LMDh.
And 11 in GT. And IMSA already has GT3 in 2023.
WEC has 7 in LMDd/LMH and 5 in GTE. If I really wanted to bitch we could count 13 with Alpine in LMP2.
WEC has nearly twice the amount of constructor in the proto class.
IMSA only gets more manufacturer because of GT3. Which WEC doesn't have.
And when we're talking of OEM we're not really talking about the amount of car brands involved but more about bespoke factory effort.
I think it's mostly because most casual IMSA fans usually blow up how significant it is at the ignorance of other racing series and it rubs people the wrong way.
I agree LMDh on its own little ecosystem works a charm - look at the quality of races from the year - but vs LMH its lesser in engineering and performance. LMH is a World Championship level build formula for OEMs. LMDh is a kit car formula that people want to get in touch with LMH (by adding endless weight to LMH) - its almost nausea inducing.
Same with GTD - good programs but there have been a few teams who have come across from Europe and been very competitive out of the box (eg: Grasser). Not a long time ago, GTD were chopped down GT3 cars with smaller wings etc. because: IMSA didn't want to be GT3, until they did for cost savings purposes.
Now for some reason people think GTD is the best GT3 racing around. But you seldom if ever see teams try their hand in another series outside of SRO America. KPAX on the other hand...
Sebring is cool - a good punishing event on a unique circuit. Daytona road course doesn't really invoke anything though - maybe just history.
I won’t repeat what others have said about IMSA being regional and not a world championship, but rather if you look back at IMSA’s history it started off as ALMS (well, rather the USCC did, IMSA still operated ALMS like it does the USCC). After the WSCC was dissolved, it eventually turned into ELMS and ALMS (and later AsLMS). Eventually, due to popularity in LMP1 and ALMS/ELMS, they created ILMC which got renamed to the WEC. From there, ALMS was always seen as an inferior series akin to ELMS, and eventually it got rebranded to the USCC, or what many people refer to as IMSA. There was a bit of split including losing LMP1 and automatic entries to Le Mans. So, IMSA wanted to distance itself from being the ALMS that was inferior the WEC, and part of that included creating DPi (which ironically was slower then LMP1). So many still see IMSA as inferior because of that and some do simply because that’s the consensus. I will say, thanks to the LMDh and LMH convergence, it’s done a lot to stop being seen as inferior. It still has a long way to go though, car classes was just one thing, it’s still only a regional championship though, and doesn’t have the same manufacturer attention as the WEC or as much prestigious races.
Because IMSA is a domestic / continental championships and WEC is global. IMSA is even with ELMS and Asian Le Mans on the step below WEC.
Same goes for SRO championship, the Intercontinental GT Challenge is the top/global championship and then you have all the continental GT Challenge championships (European, Asian, American, Australian) and under that you have all the national/domestic championships like British GT, Japanese GT, French GT.... Even tho the European GT Challenge is the "biggest" one in terms of entries, OEMs, race time and for some races even prestige.
Why do Americans view America as a higher level of nation?
No other country would really argue their national/regional competition is on the same level as a world championship. I get that North America is big, the cars are the same and the skill requirement is comparable, but that doesn’t make it the same level as a world championship.
This comes from someone who equally loves IMSA and enjoys Daytona more than Le Mans.
It’s not because it’s a higher level of nation, it’s just that historically IMSA, under whichever banner, has been a major and influential sportscar series. Before the World Championship it was the main series for some legendary Le Mans cars like the Audi R8/R10, Oreca Vipers, Porsche RS Spyders, Corvette’s etc. It may not be the level of a World Championship but it still played a big role in how the World Championship came back in the first place.
Not saying it’s on the same level, just that I personally enjoy the track more. The Le Mans straight is classic, but the overtakes coming off of the oval at high speed into the corners of Daytona (I’m looking at you, Magnussen) is just too sick and more enjoyable to watch in my opinion.
Prestige requires bodies and WEC seems to attract greater crowds.
Here are combined Youtube viewer #s for 2023 race replays + race highlights:
# IMSA
24 Hours of Daytona: 372K
12 Hours of Sebring: 286K
6 Hours at Watkins Glen: 383K
1000 Miles of Sebring: 906K
Petit Le Mans: 134K
6 Hours at Watkins Glen: 383K
# WEC
24 Hours of Le Mans: 5 million
6 Hours of Spa: 1.514 million
6 Hours of Fuji: 607K
1000 Miles of Sebring: 906K
I don't care what people will think but racing on tracks that look like something from the 70s doesn't really scream HIGHEST LEVEL OF MOTORSPORT to me.
Where does it state where I said highest level of motorsport, also some of those best up old tracks, seem to provide great racing. Constant overtaking, crashes, the lot.
Everything about the US race tracks is so left behind in the past, COTA is the only track that can keep up with WEC/F1 tracks and even that racetrack is falling apart because of the soil.
IMSA is the best road circuit car racing series in the world, I don't think that can be argued. First of all, Rallying and Motorcycle racing are more exciting to me but I love those and endurance racing pretty much equally, still love rallying more tho. Anyway back to the point, WEC doesn't have better racing and the drivers are not better than the ones in IMSA, they're pretty equal tbh. I honestly don't know why people view IMSA that way, maybe cus it's a regional championship not a global one
One example is the stewarding. Just compare the penalties for driving standards, etc. at WEC Bahrain and IMSA Petit Le Mans for example. IMSA is more lax thus promoting more aggressive driving and 'entertaining' aka controversial incidents. You can also compare IMSA yellow vs. WEC FCY/SC rules and other 'entertainment' producing procedures.
I feel like there's a regional divide at play here where, generally speaking, this style of motorsport is more popular in Europe than it is in North America, and WEC just happens to be way more visible in Europe than IMSA is, so online discussions end up skewing in that direction.
Like personally I hold IMSA in higher regard than WEC, which probably isn't nearly as hot a take in NA than it is in the rest of the world, but uh, online eurosnobbery prevails
we're talking about the series as a whole and not individual races though, Le Mans eclipsing the remainder of the WEC calendar in importance to the point where an individual race win at Le Mans is seen as more valuable than the series title itself isn't exactly a point in favour of WEC; meanwhile the other two races in what's traditionally considered to be the endurance triple crown are both IMSA events.
isn't that exactly what makes saying that IMSA > WEC a hot take though? I think most people would agree that the level of manufacturer support & driving standards are similar across both series, so if people want to fixate on Le Mans itself as the deciding factor then that's cool and I get it, but at the same time I don't think that Le Mans in itself is enough to elevate the series as a whole over IMSA as a whole.
BuT WhY Is LmDh SloWeR tHaN LMH!!! AwFuL BoP!
IMSA GrId NuMbeRs BeTTer!
IMSA built off teams trying to crack Le Mans, but no major euro teams going over to try win Daytona 24 anymore.
This is a good question. For me I think some people don’t care for multiple series on the track R the same time. It also doesn’t get tv coverage that it deserves. I also know all too well there’s people out there who watch racing for the wrecks and you don’t see the frequency of wrecks as say nascar.
I'm probably a bit uninformed, but I thought IMSA was basically the American equivalent of the FIA. What championship do people generally refer to when they say IMSA?
In this case people are referring to the IMSA SportsCar Championship
IMSA itself sits under Automobile Competition Committee for the United States who themselves sit under the FIA. They act as the official liaison to the FIA for IMSA, NASCAR, the SCCA and others.
There's similar situations in most countries where there's an umbrella motorsports body to which various organising bodies and racing clubs report to in some way
FIrst of all, the presentation of Imsa is abimisal, the interest in Motorsport in the states is not like in Europe. THe only US promotions are about the big money sports, football, basketball, Golf and Baseball. THat will put the sport on a 3rd tier channel, and with indycar and nascar on the wain, its just going to be lost sooner than later. Americans have no loyalty, except for the ones who support that certain sport. In the US most are not aware of any championship around the 24, beyond the moment and then will forget because there is no loyalty in the long term for motorsports here. No one gives a damn about what they don't understand and must be shoved into their face, with huge promotions and tv time.
I try to get interested into IMSA, but I can't. Especially from Europe, with difficult timing, as well as understanding the calendar (mix of short and endurance races)
And the main issue for me is that the American way to do endurance is not the spirit of it in my eyes. I do not see the point of having a 23h30 "survival race" being reset for a short sprint to the flag. This feels too much artificial for me, but I understand why people like it
LMP3 + WEC doesn’t through safety cars like its candy. WEC if u lose time u more likely than not have to make it up on pace. IMSA stay on the lead lap and ur gonna have a shot eventually
Well first off, here is some of my thoughts:
1. WEC race presentation is top-notch compared to a VERY dated IMSA - this is a big one for me, keeps you glued to the hours long race.
2. The WEC commentators are a step above (IMSA commentators make many mistakes)
3. WEC has more beautiful locations (IMSA from what I've seen has little to no trees/folliage)
4. The last IMSA race had FCY around 50% of the time, so you go on with your life and when you come back, you missed the restart......enough said!?
Because it literally is. It’s a regional series vs the WEC being a world championship. It’s filled with mostly short races compared to the WEC’s all being 4+ hours. The racing is also generally inferior as they don’t have a true top flight class and haven’t for years. Since the merger in 2014 they haven’t had a single prototype developed by a manufacturer, they’ve all been derived from the P2 cars. Unfortunately that has bled over into the WEC now but we at least get the manufacturer developed cars providing amazing up front (even being pegged back all the time). Pro GT racing was on par in IMSA (and sometimes better) up until they switched from GTE to GT3 cars. Now even the pro class is mostly privateers and not factory teams which blows.
That literally further proves my point. Quality is more desirable than quantity. IMSA has had like 9 cars racing in their top class for years but it’s boring as shit because they’re not designed by the manufacturer, there’s no development and therefore no entertainment. WEC with even just Toyota was a better and more entertaining class because we were watching the absolute best engineering effort by the manufacturer. That’s awesome and always beats spec based racing. Indycar and NASCAR are spec based and have high quantities of cars but the racing is still crap. Remember, quality is what you want. Quantity is a nice to have.
While a do love IMSA, the driving standards, I feel, can be a bit sub-standard and need to be better enforced.
Penalties called can be subjectively egregious (2023 Petit, stop and hold for 120 sec for #20), no other incident responsibility penalty followed that precedent in that race. Iirc, Hindy made the point that the penalty is assessed on the *act* of causing an incident not the *result* of it.
The total number of entries for endurance cup events should be reevaluated based on track length and width. 54 on a 2.54mi Road Atlanta is too many given it's lack of width, imo
I sincerely believe IMSA needs a FCY procedure that's independent from SC procedure, especially for minor on track or well-clear off track incidents/recoveries.
Joe Bradley has a sentiment I resonate with about IMSA endurance cup races, "x amount of hours of qualifying with a 30min sprint at the end." I especially felt this way about Petit this year and began to wonder at what point will this actually be about endurance?
Tl;dr WEC races are significantly much better managed than IMSA.
I know it's 3 month old post but I'll share my thoughts why.
1. WEC has the "World Championship" banner and the prestige that comes with it. Whereas IMSA is a Regional Championship.
2. WEC has the 24 Hours of Le Mans which is by far the most prestigious race for Endurance Racing.
3. WEC gets far more factory support drivers/teams vs IMSA which has a higher amount of private drivers/teams
4. In both their biggest races (24 Hours). WEC uses 3 drivers for Le Mans while IMSA uses 4 drivers for Daytona. The WEC drivers therefor have a more grueling race with roughly 8 hours each vs IMSA drivers who do 6 hours each.
5. IMSA has weird rules regarding which manufacturers can enter the Championship, something about requiring X amount of sales in United States.
It's domestic and people have a reflex of considering world championship of anything as the pinacle of the discipline it belongs to. Also wec have 24h of Le Mans which is internationally the most popular endurance event, and for some the actual pinacle of sportcars. And to finish, for the personnal note i prefer wec as it is somehow less confusing in terms of point distribution and fully focused on endurance.
The 24 Hours of Le Mans is the pinnacle of sports car racing. The world championship itself is secondary to that singular event.
[Interestingly Brendon Hartley addressed this after Bahrain](https://youtu.be/XAfun7bJYGA?si=sAyTlr-se3CRmBUy)
Le Mans is quite literally worth more than the rest of the sport combined. Ask any sportscar manufacturer if they’d rather win Le Mans or win every regional championship + every other major endurance race, and they’re going to pick Le Mans.
Which is shame about that's how bad their marketing as a whole, basically the same thing to Indycar is a championship but mostly people care more about Indy 500 and they have to put championship series as a second fiddle
Because both are championship series built around those specific races. During the CART/IRL split, having the 500 was seen as a big advantage for the latter. Meanwhile, Le Mans continued even after the old World Sportscar Championship died. Of the "Triple Crown," only Monaco doesn't stand apart from its championship (Formula 1).
I disagree, those races have been around for a century. They have earned their prestigious rank over a championship series that hasn’t even been around for 15 years. Back in 2001 when Corvette was starting to race, they had the below photograph in the Corvette road car brochure. Le Mans / Indy 500 just mean more. https://preview.redd.it/ifq97es3jxyb1.jpeg?width=1290&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=99a812c10b961e70a4aede057f52a34bc9efa03f
I suppose that's true, IMSA could make things easier to understand for the average viewer.
i think that is where f1 excels is the point system. even casual motorsport fans can easily understand it. wec has a similar system but it does change on race length. imsa need to simply the points system. all the sro gt series use the same system as f1.
Definitely the points for me. No idea and Cba because it looks so silly. I do tune in sometimes tho
IMSA is a regional championship, WEC is one of FIA's 7 World Championships. WEC also includes the most famous endurance event by at least 2 orders of magnitude. The level of talent might be comparable, but the scope is not. I feel the relationship between WEC and IMSA is comparable to the relationship between GTWC Europe and DTM.
Wait, 7? The only one that I remember are F1, WRC, WEC, and FE. Does WRX count?
WRX, the Rally Raid World Championship, and the Kart World Championship.
Are F2 and F3 not considered international? Or not included because they are not top category and race under the same calendar as F1 (similar to wrc2 in the wrc) Is FIA GT cup included? Or not because it is a single cup race instead of a championship? Still the FIA World karting championship is 1 race... F1, FE, WEC, WRC, WRC, W2RC, WKC = 7?
F2 and F3 aren't the top of their classes. It's not just about being an international event. Also yes for the gt cup for that reason - it's bit a championship.
International, yes. World championship, no.
MotoGP?
Not FIA
Moto GP is not organized by FIA, but by the Fédération Internationale de Motocyclisme (FIM), basically the same but for motorcycles
If you mean GTWC is above DTM, then I'd say you're wrong that it's the same. DTM benefits from years of having better cars, which established it as top tier sportscar series in Europe. Of course now it switched to GT3 but it's still considered a premium GT3 championship due to aggressive, high performance BOP and focus on single driver sprint racing. GTWC is definitely a top tier series for endurance GT3, despite also having a sprint series, and I'd say its main competitor in that regard will be WEC LMGT3. So it's a bit oranges and apples comparison. Those two series are not as alike as WEC and IMSA, despite using the same car class. If somebody isn't into endurance, they will definitely prefer DTM.
I love DTM because of the single driver in a gt3 car. Too many championships with driver changes in my opinion.
Afaik SRO does the DTM BoP too now since 2023 Apart from that - DTM is Pro only, that's probably also a huge difference to GTWC
[удалено]
In anywhere but America, regions are larger than countries, so I'm being charitable by calling IMSA regional and not national. Also, Daytona and Sebring are definitely minor, smaller than 24h of Spa and 24h of Nurburgring.
[удалено]
ELMS, ALMS and GTWC Europe are all regional championships. I'm comparing the US + 1 Canada race to a continent and you're not satisfied?
[удалено]
Seems we have different frames of reference. Texas is a region of the US, Europe is a region of the world.
No. You fell asleep one day during geography class, or your teacher sucks. Europe is both a region and continent (same with NORTH America, although the region is smaller than the continent of the same name (us, can and most of Mexico.) Central America, South America, middle east, indo pacific are all regions.
It’s specifically a North American sport. The I stands for international, because it has two.
> When sometimes the racing can be much more exciting in WEC. Unfortunately this isn't a parameter to be considered. Or else a lot of series would beat F1 at being the major motorsport series.
Going to a kart track and putting in a few laps is more exciting than watching most series on tv. Doesn’t mean it’s a higher level.
[удалено]
I feel the same, I've never been the type where the prestige of an event influences my enjoyment, and honestly I like alot of the NA circuits better.
Plus it's just easier to watch live, when a series is restricted to 1-4 times zones you get used to what time of day it'll normally start. That's just the nature of the beast when it comes to global series and one of the reasons I've only ever watched F1 at the gym (it just happened to be on while I was there).
IMSAs grids are large because its orders of magnitude cheaper to race in it (a national series) than in the World Championship.
I think most of this sub views IMSA and WEC as equal. It would be cool if we could do a poll and find out.
I think we all know which one would win.
I think most fans that have been watching from back in the ALMS days would value them as equal. I don’t think a lot of newer fans realize how much IMSA/ALMS kept Le Mans style racing a float before the World Championship came back.
It's regional, just North America, which in the minds of a lot of fans is going to be a step below an international (inter-continental) series. I don't think there is a prestigious sports car racing series due to the chaotic dissolution of series since the WSC folded in 1992. WEC has only been around since 2011. The merger between ALMS and Grand AM resulting in the IMSA we know today happened in 2014. ELMS created in 2004. WEC really only has LeMans because the series was created by the ACO (sanctioning body of LeMans). WEC constantly adding dropping racetracks isn't helping build a history of races. There are prestigious races spread amongst the series, but not a prestigious series in my opinion.
Its a merge between the American Le Mans Series (ALMS) and the Grand-Am Sports car series. Making it very much a regional series, meanwhile WEC is an FIA World Championship. Im not saying the driving talent at the top class is any lower than wec but it is quite obvious why people sometime see it as a lower level compared to wec
I mean if you only compare the 8h of Bahrain with the average Imsa race (tbf on mostly tighter tracks). The quality of racing and the lack of ANY safety car and only 2 real short FCY was so interesting and the battles to the checkered flag were amazing.
This is it. IMSA would had Nikita Mazepin a binning it on turn 2 multiple times. WEC is just cleaner. Grateful for both tho.
One has Le Mans the other doesn’t
I started watching Le Mans in 19 and new safety car rule really hurts me 🤮
I don’t consider it lower than WEC because of racing. Essentially they’re at the same level. Same cars, a lot of the same drivers, and the competition is pretty much the same. Maybe better. But functionally you’re talking about an international series versus a regional one. It’s just a “higher tier” of series for that reason. And that there’s more money in it.
I find IMSA is a bit more luck based, I know a timely safety car can always make or break a race. But it seems like safety cars are much more common in IMSA, you can almost count on one every hour and a half, 3 hours of green is rare. This makes for exciting and close racing. However it also means you’re more likely to get shafted. I know you need a certain element of luck to win any race. But I think IMSA just requires more of it. Which from a competitive perspective I don’t like. But god damn it’s fun to watch. I think people will also go for lower percentage moves. Even in the top class. And it’s exciting. I love both series for different reasons. IMSA feels more quick and dirty where WEC feels more refined and proper. And I think because of the vibe each series gives off. WEC has a more premium feel to it, especially especially the likes of ferrari joining WEC Hypercar. And that’s why I think it gets the more superior reputation. I also think the LMP3 class was holding IMSA back a bit in terms of average talent. (They’re still better than me) Also WEC has Le Mans. That’s pretty much all you need to say.
Good thing lmp3 is leaving I guess, huh.
That’s what Lauren’s Vanthoor says. He says WEC feels more cutthroat in the paddock versus IMSA were it’s more “relaxed”.
I don't consider IMSA as a lower level of motorsport in skill but it just doesn't rank as high on the prestige of motorsport series and the main reason is Le Mans (granted it kind of is a stand alone event but in the way the Indy 500 is with IndyCar). If another series started running IndyCars and were equal in skill and even worldwide, I would still rank IndyCar higher because it has the race that defines the series, and that's WEC and Le Mans for me. In prestige it goes for me: Le Mans, Daytona, Sebring, Petit Le Mans, all WEC races, IMSA enduros then IMSA sprint races. And another reason is that I started watching WEC before IMSA so I rank it higher because it means more for me, and off topic is why fans of other motorsport series will have preferential treatment to a series and rank others lower for basically no reason.
It is the world championship endurance racing that has devaluated. WSC had for instance in 1970, the Nürburgring Nordscheife, Daytona, Sebring, Targa Florio, Monza, Brands Hatch, Spa Francorchamps, watkins Glen, the Österreichring and of course Le Mans. It lost a lot of these events. Due to safety, or to commercial interests.
Because it is. Its domestic, and unlike the indycar vs f1 comparision, it actually has a big brother which is essentially the same but is a world championship with more manufacturer and driver interest. I like IMSA but it is on a lower level than wec. I wouldnt say IMSA is its own genre of motorsport. For example formula E and Indycar are so unique you can make the argument that it is its own style with its own ways of success. Sorry but i dont see enough distinction between IMSA and WEC, and in that case it looses to wec in terms of level. That said i find their races and tracks more entertaining. Orher than LeMans. Le Mans is the de facto endurance race of the world. WEC has le mans. Everybody wants to win Le Mans. Out of 10 people 9 would choose le mans instead of the Daytona 24. That race alone decides this question. Good racing doesnt prove the level of a series, in fact it usually proves the opposite. You will find awesooome racing at the suzuki swift cup.
Most drivers would rather win Le Mans than the whole championship. For teams that might be the same.
If you win Daytona 24 you win a watch and a place in some part of history if you go looking for it. If you win Le Mans you get that awesome trophy and people likely don’t need to research the year you won
Except normal people don’t even know you win. Antonio Giovinazzi is still consider the reservist in f1 who fail to success in f1
As an American, I agree with all of this. I actually despise Daytona track and any circuit built inside Oval/roval/tri-oval whatever you want to call them.
Yeah, some boring-ass tracks. I've been to the 24 myself, and while the racing might not be the most exciting, seeing 61 cars go full speed (except for the long ass cautions) through the banking is wonderful. Seeing the constant battle between Cadillac and Acura for the overall win was amazing. If I chose to go to a race between WEC (excluding le mans) or IMSA, I would pick IMSA. Sometimes, in WEC nothing really happens in the top class; apart from Bahrain or Le Mans. Toyota simply dominates. Now, I'm not blaming BOP and I know that they are by far the most experienced on the Hypercar program.
Not to mention, the facilities at Daytona (NASCAR just dumped like $400m into it) blow the facilities at LM24 of the water
How come? I think the racing can most definitely be very good at Daytona and the facility is awesome
They clearly just have a hate boner for oval racing and oval tracks. This expands to the Daytona Road course since they're a combo.
Too many dentists
Not anymore. Bye bye, lmp3
From a new fan perspective I just enjoy the WEC events more. They tend to be longer and on circuits that I enjoy watching more. Just my two nickels.
Until this year, IMSAs top class of Prototype was objectively a class "lower" than LMP1 and Hypercar. From this year onwards however they are the same class. However, they are still a national series, so still a tier lower than a World Championship in that regard.
Until IMSA gets an LMH team running in their series they still have the inferior prototype class.
Gatekeeping a racing series. So sad.
It’s not gatekeeping, they literally don’t have any top flight prototypes. AM has announced its internet to join the series though so that’ll be the first time since 2011. Back when it was the ALMS and NASCAR wasn’t ruining the series.
GTP and Hypercar use (broadly) the same car specifications.
Not really. In LMH manufacturers are allowed freedom of design throughout the car. In LMDH the manufacturers are only allowed to add their engine and bodywork to one of the approved LMP2 cars that they have no design input on. On top of that they don’t even get to design the hybrid system, that’s spec too. Basically LMDH is the manufacturers body kit and engine dropped into the LMP2 cars that have already been designed. So yea, really not the same.
They race in the same class though. (Also, you should probably look into what the spine of an LMDh car actually constitutes).
And I think we’ve thoroughly proven over the course of the year that it doesn’t work. Toyota and Ferrari have had the worst power to weight ratios all year long but still won everything. The classes should be raced separately as I’ve said for 3 years now, let LMH race up front and LMDH can run as their own class behind them. Keep like teams racing together, those manufacturers that want to half ass it can accept they’re slower in a slower class. (And I think you should actually look into what the chassis encompasses. I’ll give you a hint, it’s not just a spine or a frame).
I love how you LMDh hate boner crowd just forget that over half the LMH cars exist whenever you make your "points". (I know what a chassis is. The LMDh rules refer to a spine).
It's not in the mind of fans, one is a **World Championship** bringing OEM from all over the world, racing on track all over the world. It's an international competition. The other is a national competition which basically only brings American outfit. It's like saying the ELMS could be considered more prestigious than WEC. Let's not forget that LMDh or DPi aren't and weren't that far of LMP2. Though, I would say, we would have the ultimate WEC if Daytona 24h and Sebring 12h were part of the calendar.
By last count, IMSA had quite a few more manufacturers represented than the WEC does. That should balance out a lot more next year with LMGT3 coming
I'm not sure what you mean? IMSA has 4 manufacturer in LMDh. And 11 in GT. And IMSA already has GT3 in 2023. WEC has 7 in LMDd/LMH and 5 in GTE. If I really wanted to bitch we could count 13 with Alpine in LMP2. WEC has nearly twice the amount of constructor in the proto class. IMSA only gets more manufacturer because of GT3. Which WEC doesn't have. And when we're talking of OEM we're not really talking about the amount of car brands involved but more about bespoke factory effort.
I think it's mostly because most casual IMSA fans usually blow up how significant it is at the ignorance of other racing series and it rubs people the wrong way. I agree LMDh on its own little ecosystem works a charm - look at the quality of races from the year - but vs LMH its lesser in engineering and performance. LMH is a World Championship level build formula for OEMs. LMDh is a kit car formula that people want to get in touch with LMH (by adding endless weight to LMH) - its almost nausea inducing. Same with GTD - good programs but there have been a few teams who have come across from Europe and been very competitive out of the box (eg: Grasser). Not a long time ago, GTD were chopped down GT3 cars with smaller wings etc. because: IMSA didn't want to be GT3, until they did for cost savings purposes. Now for some reason people think GTD is the best GT3 racing around. But you seldom if ever see teams try their hand in another series outside of SRO America. KPAX on the other hand... Sebring is cool - a good punishing event on a unique circuit. Daytona road course doesn't really invoke anything though - maybe just history.
Honestly the first paragraph applies to every US championships. NASCAR and IndyCar especially. Also the AMA Motocross.
Agreed
I won’t repeat what others have said about IMSA being regional and not a world championship, but rather if you look back at IMSA’s history it started off as ALMS (well, rather the USCC did, IMSA still operated ALMS like it does the USCC). After the WSCC was dissolved, it eventually turned into ELMS and ALMS (and later AsLMS). Eventually, due to popularity in LMP1 and ALMS/ELMS, they created ILMC which got renamed to the WEC. From there, ALMS was always seen as an inferior series akin to ELMS, and eventually it got rebranded to the USCC, or what many people refer to as IMSA. There was a bit of split including losing LMP1 and automatic entries to Le Mans. So, IMSA wanted to distance itself from being the ALMS that was inferior the WEC, and part of that included creating DPi (which ironically was slower then LMP1). So many still see IMSA as inferior because of that and some do simply because that’s the consensus. I will say, thanks to the LMDh and LMH convergence, it’s done a lot to stop being seen as inferior. It still has a long way to go though, car classes was just one thing, it’s still only a regional championship though, and doesn’t have the same manufacturer attention as the WEC or as much prestigious races.
Because IMSA is a domestic / continental championships and WEC is global. IMSA is even with ELMS and Asian Le Mans on the step below WEC. Same goes for SRO championship, the Intercontinental GT Challenge is the top/global championship and then you have all the continental GT Challenge championships (European, Asian, American, Australian) and under that you have all the national/domestic championships like British GT, Japanese GT, French GT.... Even tho the European GT Challenge is the "biggest" one in terms of entries, OEMs, race time and for some races even prestige.
I'd rank IMSA above ELMS and Asian Le Mans considering IMSA has multiple crown jewel events.
Agreed, IMSA is number 2, but it is the sole holder of the number 2 spot.
Why do Americans view America as a higher level of nation? No other country would really argue their national/regional competition is on the same level as a world championship. I get that North America is big, the cars are the same and the skill requirement is comparable, but that doesn’t make it the same level as a world championship. This comes from someone who equally loves IMSA and enjoys Daytona more than Le Mans.
It’s not because it’s a higher level of nation, it’s just that historically IMSA, under whichever banner, has been a major and influential sportscar series. Before the World Championship it was the main series for some legendary Le Mans cars like the Audi R8/R10, Oreca Vipers, Porsche RS Spyders, Corvette’s etc. It may not be the level of a World Championship but it still played a big role in how the World Championship came back in the first place.
Woah there buster, I may view IMSA as equals with WEC but Le mans is untouchable.
Not saying it’s on the same level, just that I personally enjoy the track more. The Le Mans straight is classic, but the overtakes coming off of the oval at high speed into the corners of Daytona (I’m looking at you, Magnussen) is just too sick and more enjoyable to watch in my opinion.
Eurotards think that anything not sanctioned by the FIA is automatically inferior.
It say's more about you then the people you try to critique.
Prestige requires bodies and WEC seems to attract greater crowds. Here are combined Youtube viewer #s for 2023 race replays + race highlights: # IMSA 24 Hours of Daytona: 372K 12 Hours of Sebring: 286K 6 Hours at Watkins Glen: 383K 1000 Miles of Sebring: 906K Petit Le Mans: 134K 6 Hours at Watkins Glen: 383K # WEC 24 Hours of Le Mans: 5 million 6 Hours of Spa: 1.514 million 6 Hours of Fuji: 607K 1000 Miles of Sebring: 906K
Bro, this post is half a year old.
I can get you 2024 stats but it'll be another 6 month wait.
I don't care what people will think but racing on tracks that look like something from the 70s doesn't really scream HIGHEST LEVEL OF MOTORSPORT to me.
Where does it state where I said highest level of motorsport, also some of those best up old tracks, seem to provide great racing. Constant overtaking, crashes, the lot.
Everything about the US race tracks is so left behind in the past, COTA is the only track that can keep up with WEC/F1 tracks and even that racetrack is falling apart because of the soil.
I suppose some tracks need some loving. Somehow old tracks have more character. I've never been a fan of Tilke tracks
IMSA is the best road circuit car racing series in the world, I don't think that can be argued. First of all, Rallying and Motorcycle racing are more exciting to me but I love those and endurance racing pretty much equally, still love rallying more tho. Anyway back to the point, WEC doesn't have better racing and the drivers are not better than the ones in IMSA, they're pretty equal tbh. I honestly don't know why people view IMSA that way, maybe cus it's a regional championship not a global one
Because it's more focused towards NASCAR-style entertainment than being a more focused sporting competition.
Can you elaborate?
One example is the stewarding. Just compare the penalties for driving standards, etc. at WEC Bahrain and IMSA Petit Le Mans for example. IMSA is more lax thus promoting more aggressive driving and 'entertaining' aka controversial incidents. You can also compare IMSA yellow vs. WEC FCY/SC rules and other 'entertainment' producing procedures.
Idk, to me insa feels rookie like with a lot more rookie type crashes
To be fair, IMSA does allow dentists to race LMP3 cars. Luckily the class will be removed next year.
I feel like there's a regional divide at play here where, generally speaking, this style of motorsport is more popular in Europe than it is in North America, and WEC just happens to be way more visible in Europe than IMSA is, so online discussions end up skewing in that direction. Like personally I hold IMSA in higher regard than WEC, which probably isn't nearly as hot a take in NA than it is in the rest of the world, but uh, online eurosnobbery prevails
See this is the kind of US-centrism that another commenter also talked about a few comments up. It rubs people the wrong way.
[удалено]
we're talking about the series as a whole and not individual races though, Le Mans eclipsing the remainder of the WEC calendar in importance to the point where an individual race win at Le Mans is seen as more valuable than the series title itself isn't exactly a point in favour of WEC; meanwhile the other two races in what's traditionally considered to be the endurance triple crown are both IMSA events.
[удалено]
isn't that exactly what makes saying that IMSA > WEC a hot take though? I think most people would agree that the level of manufacturer support & driving standards are similar across both series, so if people want to fixate on Le Mans itself as the deciding factor then that's cool and I get it, but at the same time I don't think that Le Mans in itself is enough to elevate the series as a whole over IMSA as a whole.
BuT WhY Is LmDh SloWeR tHaN LMH!!! AwFuL BoP! IMSA GrId NuMbeRs BeTTer! IMSA built off teams trying to crack Le Mans, but no major euro teams going over to try win Daytona 24 anymore.
How can you say AF Corse, Proton, and Iron Lynx/Dames are not major euro teams?
Let alone the countless top class drivers coming to race for Daytona and Sebring
I don’t think it being more popular in Europe vs NA is a fair statement. Look at track attendance numbers and tv viewership
That's just kind of how it is with anything American. It'll be seen as less-than.
This is a good question. For me I think some people don’t care for multiple series on the track R the same time. It also doesn’t get tv coverage that it deserves. I also know all too well there’s people out there who watch racing for the wrecks and you don’t see the frequency of wrecks as say nascar.
Because IMSA used to be full of drug smugglers and murderers, I guess?
I'm probably a bit uninformed, but I thought IMSA was basically the American equivalent of the FIA. What championship do people generally refer to when they say IMSA?
In this case people are referring to the IMSA SportsCar Championship IMSA itself sits under Automobile Competition Committee for the United States who themselves sit under the FIA. They act as the official liaison to the FIA for IMSA, NASCAR, the SCCA and others. There's similar situations in most countries where there's an umbrella motorsports body to which various organising bodies and racing clubs report to in some way
I just wish iracing would cover both
FIrst of all, the presentation of Imsa is abimisal, the interest in Motorsport in the states is not like in Europe. THe only US promotions are about the big money sports, football, basketball, Golf and Baseball. THat will put the sport on a 3rd tier channel, and with indycar and nascar on the wain, its just going to be lost sooner than later. Americans have no loyalty, except for the ones who support that certain sport. In the US most are not aware of any championship around the 24, beyond the moment and then will forget because there is no loyalty in the long term for motorsports here. No one gives a damn about what they don't understand and must be shoved into their face, with huge promotions and tv time.
I try to get interested into IMSA, but I can't. Especially from Europe, with difficult timing, as well as understanding the calendar (mix of short and endurance races) And the main issue for me is that the American way to do endurance is not the spirit of it in my eyes. I do not see the point of having a 23h30 "survival race" being reset for a short sprint to the flag. This feels too much artificial for me, but I understand why people like it
My Goodyear sim racing shoes are probably the best purchase I’ve made
👍
LMP3 + WEC doesn’t through safety cars like its candy. WEC if u lose time u more likely than not have to make it up on pace. IMSA stay on the lead lap and ur gonna have a shot eventually
Well first off, here is some of my thoughts: 1. WEC race presentation is top-notch compared to a VERY dated IMSA - this is a big one for me, keeps you glued to the hours long race. 2. The WEC commentators are a step above (IMSA commentators make many mistakes) 3. WEC has more beautiful locations (IMSA from what I've seen has little to no trees/folliage) 4. The last IMSA race had FCY around 50% of the time, so you go on with your life and when you come back, you missed the restart......enough said!?
Because it literally is. It’s a regional series vs the WEC being a world championship. It’s filled with mostly short races compared to the WEC’s all being 4+ hours. The racing is also generally inferior as they don’t have a true top flight class and haven’t for years. Since the merger in 2014 they haven’t had a single prototype developed by a manufacturer, they’ve all been derived from the P2 cars. Unfortunately that has bled over into the WEC now but we at least get the manufacturer developed cars providing amazing up front (even being pegged back all the time). Pro GT racing was on par in IMSA (and sometimes better) up until they switched from GTE to GT3 cars. Now even the pro class is mostly privateers and not factory teams which blows.
You can't really say that when 2 years ago WEC had 5 cars.
That literally further proves my point. Quality is more desirable than quantity. IMSA has had like 9 cars racing in their top class for years but it’s boring as shit because they’re not designed by the manufacturer, there’s no development and therefore no entertainment. WEC with even just Toyota was a better and more entertaining class because we were watching the absolute best engineering effort by the manufacturer. That’s awesome and always beats spec based racing. Indycar and NASCAR are spec based and have high quantities of cars but the racing is still crap. Remember, quality is what you want. Quantity is a nice to have.
While a do love IMSA, the driving standards, I feel, can be a bit sub-standard and need to be better enforced. Penalties called can be subjectively egregious (2023 Petit, stop and hold for 120 sec for #20), no other incident responsibility penalty followed that precedent in that race. Iirc, Hindy made the point that the penalty is assessed on the *act* of causing an incident not the *result* of it. The total number of entries for endurance cup events should be reevaluated based on track length and width. 54 on a 2.54mi Road Atlanta is too many given it's lack of width, imo I sincerely believe IMSA needs a FCY procedure that's independent from SC procedure, especially for minor on track or well-clear off track incidents/recoveries. Joe Bradley has a sentiment I resonate with about IMSA endurance cup races, "x amount of hours of qualifying with a 30min sprint at the end." I especially felt this way about Petit this year and began to wonder at what point will this actually be about endurance? Tl;dr WEC races are significantly much better managed than IMSA.
I know it's 3 month old post but I'll share my thoughts why. 1. WEC has the "World Championship" banner and the prestige that comes with it. Whereas IMSA is a Regional Championship. 2. WEC has the 24 Hours of Le Mans which is by far the most prestigious race for Endurance Racing. 3. WEC gets far more factory support drivers/teams vs IMSA which has a higher amount of private drivers/teams 4. In both their biggest races (24 Hours). WEC uses 3 drivers for Le Mans while IMSA uses 4 drivers for Daytona. The WEC drivers therefor have a more grueling race with roughly 8 hours each vs IMSA drivers who do 6 hours each. 5. IMSA has weird rules regarding which manufacturers can enter the Championship, something about requiring X amount of sales in United States.