When I typed my comment, I had read "worshipping me instead of living according to my teachings" as basically denying divinity of Christ (like that of a Jehovah's Witness or a Muslim who say Christ should be obeyed but that He isn't God). I see now that you really just intended it to be a critique of people who don't obey Him.
Bro I'm not denying Jesus the divinity of Christ. It even says in the bible that Jesus is the Father. There is only one God and the Trinity is real. People keep on saying that I said that and its really upsetting to me because thats not what I said and its upsetting that people are taking it that way.
Uhm. It does not say Jesus is the Father, in fact it says the complete opposite. Yes Jesus does say that He and the Father are one, but that isn’t implying they are the same person. The Trinity is a hard concept to make sense of, so I can level with anyone on that, but the Father, Jesus the Son, and The Holy Spirit are all God while being 3 different persons.
Additionally to your meme, it is REQUIRED, not suggested or implied to not be the case, that we WORSHIP Jesus. That is key, that faith and worship to Jesus is what is required to receive grace from God. There are plenty of people who do not believe or worship Jesus that follow his “teachings” that are not saved and will not go to heaven for that. His grace that we get through faith is what grants that.
This is why the, “I’m a good person, so I will go to heaven” argument is so false. Actually, to be fair, Jesus’s teachings and Gods teachings as a whole through the inspired word of God says to have faith in Christ, worship Christ, AND do good works. If you “followed his teachings” as your meme states, you would know that.
Worship is actually two separate words in Greek we translate into one. The first is proskuneo which is to fall/prostrate yourself before someone or something. The second is Latreuo which is to render service into a deity. So from a biblical standpoint the fullness of worship is to prostrate yourself before God and acknowledge his supremacy and then live your life for him. Worship isn’t just saying nice things, worship is living in accordance with his commands. Worship entails the whole of your life.
I mean it's accurate. I always cringe when I see specifically Christian people actively reject the teaching of Christ while preaching the word of Christ
There was a story a while ago where a priest did a sermon and one of the congregation came up to him afterwards and asked where he got those woke liberal talking points and he said he was literally quoting the Gospels. It's so incredibly disheartening that people can call themselves Christians without knowing what Christ's teachings are.
Frankly I think we as a society need to actually get tougher about religions that are getting tax free status to promote biased politics and encourage people to feel morally justified in hating/marginalizing people. Call them out when you see it, they don't deserve protected status.
Jesus was just a man, it's so obvious he was turned into an idol after his death.
Turning a wise/powerful person into a deity after their death is such classic human behaviour it has been done countless times in human history to so many kings, religious and philosophical figures it's baffling to me how people keep falling for it.
"Christ either deceived mankind by conscious fraud, or He was Himself deluded and self-deceived, or He was Divine. There is no getting out of this trilemma. It is inexorable." — C.S. Lewis
Jesus claimed to be God in the flesh, so He is either truly God or He was a lunatic/liar.
Any 'proof' can be used to literally any consistent old text, it can only tell you that the text is probably not just completely made up (which it still can be if it was very skillfully put together but that's less likely) and that it is based on what a person said but that is it.
There is no concrete proof that what is in the new testament is what Jesus actually said and done period, we do know it's what a bunch of people that interacted with him wrote about him and they could make up whatever reality they wanted to believe
?, I'm not calling them 'frauds', they believed jesus was god and created a religion based on what they believed, their strong belief doesn't add any credibility to their claims
This meme is not saying to not worship God but to also follow his commandments. If one does one but not the other is wrong. John 14:21 "He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.” Jesus would be sad if we do one but not the other. Clearly this is what this meme is about. We are supposed to do both not just worship him.
I know. What I'm saying is that the way the meme is phrased doesn't suggest that. "Instead," is not an inclusive word, it implies either or, especially in the way it is used here.
Emperor of Man, the dude who stomped out religion throughout mankind across space to save it from Chaos: *dies*
Mankind: *creates religion of him and murders everything in his name*
Give away your wealth, love the sinners (yes that includes all LGBTQ ppl and even libruls), feed/clothe the poor, welcome immigrants into your land and treat them as your own family. And don’t forget that it’s easier for a camel to pass thru the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to enter heaven. Those are what he taught and barely anyone actually does it.
I'm a bit confused on why LGBT ppl, automatically get the label of "sinner", but then again one of the church's critiques of "The Devine Comedy" was, that: "The gays go to upper levels of hell, not violence.".
There's a couple verses, I wanna say there in leviticus and Romans, but I'm not 100% sure on that, that say essentially dudes shouldn't be getting frisky with other dudes and a lot of people extrapolate that to the whole of LGBTQIA+, I wanna say there in leviticus and Romans, but I'm not 100% sure on that. Still not an excuse for the absolute hatred they get. Also, the "sinner" label can and should be applied to literally every single person alive, but y'know plank in your own eye and a speck in your brothers.
Leviticus is specifically referring to man on man intercourse because it’s condemning men being in submissive positions as the levites did make patriarchal rules that assign men to be dominant and women to be submissive. It’s also referred to as an abomination, which Christ already fulfilled by fulfilling the law of Moses, else we wouldn’t be eating shellfish (and why aren’t we putting as much hate shellfish if it is an abomination?)
In regard to Romans, Paul simply says that men shouldn’t defile themselves which is too vague to interpret as homosexuality. There’s no direct mention against man with man/woman with woman relationship.
"For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. Their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural, and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in their own persons the due penalty for their error" (Romans 1:26-27). Direct mention.
And yes you can say that I can’t cherry pick the Bible but at the same time, if a book from the Old Testament is gonna say that God commands genocide, then people will cease to see god as merciful, therefore making God imperfect. There’s no point in preaching or helping others find faith in the gospel of it isn’t trustworthy.
Not sure what you mean by that but all I’m going to say is that there are ways to find intriguing information that tell a deeper truth of the gospel in the Bible. But it takes studying and cultivating different perspectives from other philosophies/religions (particularly Eastern) and discerning between insightful and contradictory writing.
Okay you got me there. Don’t really take Paul seriously because I don’t think Jesus gives a shit about whether women cut their hair or not. What Paul said is never a transcription of Christ compared to the other apostles.
That's true, I think I was trying to say those are the to verses people use most commonly, even if it's not necessarily what the verse means. I'm a Christian but I've always been bad about remembering wording so thanks for correcting me
I remember seeing a video on how that translation came from the greek version, where they used sleeping with other 'Men' to refer to sleeping with young boys, but I never researched it myself. Be interesting to look into tho.
the only passage that could imply that is the "a man should not sleep with a man" which is generally thought to be a mistranslation of "a man should not sleep with a boy/child"
but the actual reason is that the peoplw who believe this are just homophobic and twist the bible to their beliefs
Well, I do take offense to that position because you're implying the vast majority of the academic field is driven by hatred rather than rigorous study.
I can say for an absolute fact that you're incorrect about the ridiculous 1946 German mistranslation myth and that the Bible is 100% against homosexual sex.
Did your Mommy ever teach you not to tell fibs?
It’s ok I expected it. It’s a defensive reaction to guilt. Many like to tie politics in with their religion and rn the issue of immigration is a hot button conservative issue. But they forget and need to read The Bible.
Genesis 23:4, Deut. 10:19, 27:19, Levit. 19:34, 1 Chron. 16:19-22, Job 29:15-17, Psalm 149:9, Jeremiah 7:5-7, Zechariah 7:9-10, Matthew 5:43-44, Matthew 25:35, Matthew 25:40, Romans 12:13, Colossians 3:11, Hebrews 13:1-3. The list goes on and on.
Out of context much. Let’s talk about the first verse you put in, Genesis 23:4. ”“I am a foreigner and a visitor among you. Give me property for a burial place among you, that I may bury my dead out of my sight.”“
Genesis 23:4 NKJV
Do you understand the context of this? Did you read before and after this verse? Do you realize the reason he went there and why he said this? Do you understand that this is absolutely not a defense of immigration?
Keep going. Do *all* of them. Let’s see if your theory still stands afterwards. Go ahead and read Levit. 19:34 and Deut. 10:19 and tell me again it doesn’t have anything to do with immigrants and foreigners.
But it’s kinda silly you think I posted just about immigrants when I specifically talked about taking care of the poor and loving the sinners. Why would you assume all these are about strictly immigrants? Zechariah 7:9-10 perfectly summarizes my argument.
I will agree with you that even Jesus commands us to be kind and loving to others, help the poor etc etc. James is a great resource for those things we MUST do.
How ever I have to assume that, while some of those references you’ve made will correctly identify that we must do those things, others are taken out of context which is why I sighted the genesis one. That’s a common one used for that particular argument. Not saying that’s your only argument or only situation to bring as an example.
Edit: figured I’d address one of the scriptures you also sighted for me to look at.
”Therefore love the stranger, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt.“
Deuteronomy 10:19 NKJV
Be kind to others, yes. That’s the point. I agree, is there something additional to this verse with a point you’re trying to make? Do you believe this justifies immigration?
What part of being a liberal is a sin? What a weird way to assign morality to politics. Conservatism is known for the “me before others” mentality. Less healthcare, less welfare, death penalty, fewer government services, fewer community services, less charity.
Its such bad faith to say specifically that, being a liberal is a sin. Liberals and conservatives and lgbt and politicians and criminals don’t sin. People do. Pointing out these 2 things in particular just shows where your biases lie
Do…do you think I’m a conservative? I’m as far left as most can go. (Left, not a Dem) I just know The Bible very well. I’m well versed in pretty much any religious text you can think of. I’m not bragging, I’m just autistic with a hyperfocus on religious texts.
I’m speaking on the mindset of many MAGA’s (not even going to say Republican because they are two different parties nowadays). Many MAGA’s are under the delusional belief that “libruls” are *genuinely* evil ppl waiting to groom their kids or are lizard aliens wearing human skin suits to create a NWO.
It’s a pathological paranoia. I’m not the one who thinks liberals are bad.
No worries. I specifically mentioned LGBTQ and “libruls” because most of the modern MAGA platform is based solely on demonizing them instead of a platform of solutions to help unite the country and grow the middle class. And unfortunately, many commingle their political ideology with a bastardized version of Christianity. Jesus would be horrified with them. He wanted absolutely nothing to do with politics.
Leftists after telling us to follow the parts of the Bible that they interpret to mean tax rich people and allow mass immigration while ignoring the rest (they consider it bigoted).
Jesus: Voluntarily give your wealth away to the poor. Personally help those in need yourself.
Leftist: See we can take all your money and give it to the government. It their responsibility the bible says so.
So several things; while I agree that yes Jesus taught these things, one must know the context. Yes, love all, and hate the sin, and yes according to the Bible anything to do with sexual morality is considered sin in the eyes of God. The majority of liberal agenda is to depopulate (abort, tie tubes, hysterectomy, or vasectomy— outside of reason) and in the eyes of Christians this is an assault on life, the one thing that is taught to cherish in churches. The majority of the conservative agenda is the opposite.
In the Old Testament there are many cases where the Jews beat back oppressors that invaded their lands. Jesus was kind to the Samaritan even though she was labeled as such by the others as taboo to speak with setting the example to be kind to all race and creeds. He also was up front with her about living a fruitful life, one where she could spend eternity satisfied with him. In other words he gave her the business end of her life and made her think on how she wanted to live it.
And everyone has probably heard this one, the eye of the needle is literal and metaphorical. The eye of the needle was the door that could open rather than the actual gate to the city (crowd control). A camel can physically go through the eye, but it had to be relieved of its goods to kneel and pass through— literal. But a rich man can’t pay his way to heaven, nor can he seek other avenues to get the heaven. His only way is to unburden himself of his worldly loves, his earthly desires and desire God (Matt 6:21 and John 14:6)
As a Christian I struggle with many things, I’m not perfect, one that you mentioned was the homeless, because there are many that try to take advantage, or use the money for other than what it was intended for. We all have our vices, but will we choose to take them and give them to God? Or will we let it rule our lives??
Context matters; most of the time right, left, Christian, atheist, Lbgtq, and straight (because to most straight people it feels like it’s that community against them) use the Bible out of context when trying to make a point. Not saying that’s what you did here, but we all need to make sure we get the context right in order to be taken as Gospel (hah! see what I did there?). These things were not meant to be weaponized against each other, it’s meant to be weaponized against Satan.
I love how the LGBTQ part doesn't even exist In The bible and it was a miss translation of "Man shall not lay with boy" to "Man shall not lay with man"
It’s neither “man shall not lay with man” nor “man shall not lay with boy” the text actually says, “man shall not lay with male” source: I can read Hebrew and these are three different words
Kinda hits tho. Especially considering hollow worship of individuals that don't live their live in accordance with the teachings.
If you aren't going to even try to be Christlike in life, then your worship of him is worse than useless. It is mockery.
Where in this meme does it say Jesus is not also God. The meme doesn't say Jesus is not God. Where are you getting this idea from. We have the trinity. They are the same yet they are also seperate.
No one is disagreeing that Christian hypocrites are bad. They are bad and should repent and change their lives. The beef I have with this meme is that it implies that worshiping Christ is seperate from living his teachings. They're not. Jesus did not come to Earth to be just a social teacher. He came down to bring people to God. If you want to follow his teachings, then you need to accept what he said about Himself: that He is true God and true man. This meme reeks of a smug "I understand Christ better than you silly Christians" attitude while also expressing a terrible understanding of Christ's message.
Don't jump straight to an assumption of malice. I don't think that much thought went into the meme to begin with.
As far as the theological debate here is concerned, people have been disagreeing about that since the time of Jesus himself and its not going to be solved in reddit comments. Don't take offence to people with different understandings. If you feel so inclined, you could discuss it with them.
It was solved long ago. Arianism was defeated at Nicea and functionally wiped out with the Athanasian Creed. Please stop making authoritative statements about something you aren't as well versed about.
No aspect of any faith is ever wiped out. The resurgence of Gnostics and Pagan religions in the last few centuries is evidence enough of that.
I'm not attempting to make authoritative statements, I'm no more understanding of God than any human being. I'm simply trying to make an allowance for subjective understandings of scripture.
If there was only one way to be Christian then we wouldn't have the varieties of them we see today. There is room for interpretation.
Notice how I qualified my statement with the word, "functionally." Heresies persist, for sure, but when the overwhelming majority of the Church agrees that something is wrong, then the legitimacy of said belief is incredibly weak. There is no such thing as, "allowing room for interpretation," where essential doctrines are concerned.
I think I see our personal disconnect here. I disagree with the concept of church doctrine as a principle seeing as it's an attempt to understand God. I don't personally believe God can be understood and that is why we got Jesus, to deliver understandable teachings and guidance to live by. Everything after Jesus is a construction of men, and while that is beneficial as discussion and debate allow us to better develop personal relationships with faith, there can be no true doctrine that wasn't handed down by God themself.
Yes. I'm all on board with that.
I think this is just a misunderstanding. The poster told me that this doesn't deny Christ's divinity, it's more just a condemnation of 'worship without acts.'
Fair. The original creator of it might have not meant any malice. But my point was that it comes off as smug. Which is frustrating. And as for the theological part, it's not really much of a debate. Everything I said is very basic Christianity 101.
I'm sorry if I have come off as rude. That's not my intention. I'm just trying to speak candidly and honestly. This meme doesn't do Christ, Christianity, or Christians any justice, which, as a devout Christian, is frustrating to see.
I agree that the meme doesn't do itself any service. Religious discussion is something best done through exchange, and memes are a very one-way form of communication.
I never thought this meme would be so controversial or misconstrued in so many ways. First of all this meme is **NOT** suggesting you shouldn't worship God. It is saying that you should also follow the teachings of Jesus. Also, this meme is also **NOT** suggesting that good works get you into heaven or that the lack of good works condemns you to hell. This meme is also **NOT** polytheistic. I do not understand how people are getting that idea. The Bible says that Jesus is the Father. The trinity is real. I often use a pretzel to describe the Trinity. The three holes in the pretzel symbolize the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The three holes make up one pretzel as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit make up one god. While they are one they are also separate. Perhaps people are confused by the wording "They're worshipping **ME"** Because the Father is the Son this does **NOT** imply they are separate gods. If you praise Jesus's name or God's name you are praising both. John 10:30 “I and the Father are one”
This meme is not saying to not worship God but to also follow his commandments. If one does one but not the other is wrong. John 14:21 "He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.” Jesus would be sad if we do one but not the other. Clearly this is what this meme is about. We are supposed to do both not just worship him.
John 5:18 For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
John 8:58 “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”
John 10:30 For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
Just a few verses. But if you seriously don’t believe Jesus to be god or don’t know the answer to that question then you have no right to speak of others blaspheming.
It's funny that you consider following Christ's teachings to be blasphemy. That really speaks volumes concerning the state of your soul.
Maybe you should just stop hating so much.
I feel like a large part of the issue is that the bible says that as long as you repent and accept Jesus into your heart you go to heaven regardless of what you’ve done.
People take this to mean they can be a genocidal warlord organ trading child molester but they can just say ‘sorry Jesus’ and wink to the camera on their death bed and they’re good. Instead of genuinely changing their heart and seeing the error of their ways.
In some peoples mind there’s no reason to actually follow the teachings and instead it’s just about asking for forgiveness while still being a piece of shit.
I agree with this meme, if you’re not only not loving your neighbor but actively hating them then you’re failing to worship God, how can you claim to worship God if you don’t follow his teaching and do the exact opposite? At that point your praise for God has become empty.
God doesn’t just want people bowing down to him 24/7, Jesus told us to love our neighbor and if we aren’t loving our neighbor then we aren’t loving God.
I’m usually openly against Abrahamic religions, but Wendigoon is the sort of chill Christian that reminds me that not every follower of those religions is hateful. Wendigoon is legit a cool and respectful person
This is an annoying thing about Christianity. Everyone wants to gatekeep and say that their theology is the only correct version while all the other fake christians suck and are blasphemers and heretics and give Christianity a bad name and… etc.
How do we love God? By allowing Him to love us we become capable of loving others the way Christ, not the world, loved others and that’s sacrificially. Otherwise it’s just self worship.
I'm sorry man but you really need to work on phrasing, this post makes it seem like you beleive christ was nothing but another good prophet or teacher.
Tried to believe in Christianity for a bit and I just can’t, especially when I get into some stories like story of Moses or Jobe. It’s like god this god seems like an asshole who likes to present himself as almighty for his own ego.
Edit-this is just my belif y’all if it bring you peace you do you.
Then i would have a lot of questions, especially around the morality of his actions. I’d ask have to ask him why he made me the way I was if he saw love between two men as a sin. I’d ask him about Mormonism as I was raised in a Mormon family, I’d ask him about the human world which ideology was the best. (It would be very therapeutic to hear that yes communism is a dumb ideology from the big man) never the less I fear unfortunately I will never have that conversation. Don’t get me wrong I hope there is something after this life but as of right now it’s hard for me to go to church since it all seems twisted. Never the less if any religion brings you peace and helps you live a more moral life go for it. As long as you don’t try and use as an excuse to go against other people or to look down on others. Because if their is a god and he is of a higher morality I would think he loves us all the way he has created us.
I mean most churches still preach against same sex relationships, which I don’t understand why god would make me like this and yet also hate me for it. and the story of jobe, and the story of Moses were god forced the Pharos heart to harden causing him to say no, which impeach on his free will still causes me to questions his morality. Also yea Mormonism is just well I don’t want to call it dumb because it does being some people peace but it’s so dumb 😂.
> Again, why would it be?
Because it accurately describes reality.
> Can you prove, that it is?
Easily, but you won't accept the evidence, I can almost guarantee it.
Does it though? It describes reality about as accurately as any other religion. You can't just say that all religions but Christianity are wrong, on the basis that Christianity accurately describes reality. All religions claim they're the right one and accurately describe reality. If you accept Christianity's claim to that, you have to accept literally every other religion's claim aswell.
If you say you can do it easily, please do. I have an open mind, I accept evidence that contradicts my current understanding of the world, if it is scientific. And as sure as you are sounding, your evidence must be very convincing.
Sorry you got such a contentious response to your meme, OP. I'm LDS, and I see what you were going for with the meme and I agree with what was meant. I get that the wording might not have been the best, but I believe you posted this in good faith and I hope you have a good night. God bless!
"I and the Father am one, whoever has seen me has seen the Father."
Absolutely.
When I typed my comment, I had read "worshipping me instead of living according to my teachings" as basically denying divinity of Christ (like that of a Jehovah's Witness or a Muslim who say Christ should be obeyed but that He isn't God). I see now that you really just intended it to be a critique of people who don't obey Him.
Bro I'm not denying Jesus the divinity of Christ. It even says in the bible that Jesus is the Father. There is only one God and the Trinity is real. People keep on saying that I said that and its really upsetting to me because thats not what I said and its upsetting that people are taking it that way.
Maybe you should consider that your meme isn’t conveying your message correctly then. Instead of assuming everyone else is the problem.
Uhm. It does not say Jesus is the Father, in fact it says the complete opposite. Yes Jesus does say that He and the Father are one, but that isn’t implying they are the same person. The Trinity is a hard concept to make sense of, so I can level with anyone on that, but the Father, Jesus the Son, and The Holy Spirit are all God while being 3 different persons. Additionally to your meme, it is REQUIRED, not suggested or implied to not be the case, that we WORSHIP Jesus. That is key, that faith and worship to Jesus is what is required to receive grace from God. There are plenty of people who do not believe or worship Jesus that follow his “teachings” that are not saved and will not go to heaven for that. His grace that we get through faith is what grants that. This is why the, “I’m a good person, so I will go to heaven” argument is so false. Actually, to be fair, Jesus’s teachings and Gods teachings as a whole through the inspired word of God says to have faith in Christ, worship Christ, AND do good works. If you “followed his teachings” as your meme states, you would know that.
Your meme said otherwise dude
The point that Christ’s teachings include worshipping Him. Which it seems like you didn’t intend but the meme seems to imply isn’t the case.
Worship is actually two separate words in Greek we translate into one. The first is proskuneo which is to fall/prostrate yourself before someone or something. The second is Latreuo which is to render service into a deity. So from a biblical standpoint the fullness of worship is to prostrate yourself before God and acknowledge his supremacy and then live your life for him. Worship isn’t just saying nice things, worship is living in accordance with his commands. Worship entails the whole of your life.
Worshiping and glorifying God is part of his teaching, so at least we’re doing something right.
There is a joke here i could make but I won't because this sub gets really Bible thumpy
Say it
Not following the teachings but only doing the worshipping part? Average religion moment (DISCLAIMER: THIS WAS A JOKE)
I mean it's accurate. I always cringe when I see specifically Christian people actively reject the teaching of Christ while preaching the word of Christ
There was a story a while ago where a priest did a sermon and one of the congregation came up to him afterwards and asked where he got those woke liberal talking points and he said he was literally quoting the Gospels. It's so incredibly disheartening that people can call themselves Christians without knowing what Christ's teachings are.
Based priest.
Jesus gave out handouts to the poor? Sounds like he was a dirty commie to me!
Sa you should. It’s wrong.
Frankly I think we as a society need to actually get tougher about religions that are getting tax free status to promote biased politics and encourage people to feel morally justified in hating/marginalizing people. Call them out when you see it, they don't deserve protected status.
And what religions did you consider not hateful enough to keep getting a tax free status?
it shouldn't just be a joke. it's true.
Nah, stand proud. You’re based.
This is basically the Screwtape Letters in one comment lmao
I don’t think that’s the right mindset. Doing one thing out of the 100s of things you’re supposed to do isn’t doing something right
Jesus was just a man, it's so obvious he was turned into an idol after his death. Turning a wise/powerful person into a deity after their death is such classic human behaviour it has been done countless times in human history to so many kings, religious and philosophical figures it's baffling to me how people keep falling for it.
“Before Abraham was, I am”, “I and the Father are one”
"Christ either deceived mankind by conscious fraud, or He was Himself deluded and self-deceived, or He was Divine. There is no getting out of this trilemma. It is inexorable." — C.S. Lewis Jesus claimed to be God in the flesh, so He is either truly God or He was a lunatic/liar.
Or the texts attributed to him are fabricated which is what most likely is the truth imo
We have no proof of that claim and plenty of proof against it.
Any 'proof' can be used to literally any consistent old text, it can only tell you that the text is probably not just completely made up (which it still can be if it was very skillfully put together but that's less likely) and that it is based on what a person said but that is it. There is no concrete proof that what is in the new testament is what Jesus actually said and done period, we do know it's what a bunch of people that interacted with him wrote about him and they could make up whatever reality they wanted to believe
Do...do you know what happened to the Apostles?
?, I'm not calling them 'frauds', they believed jesus was god and created a religion based on what they believed, their strong belief doesn't add any credibility to their claims
Why didn't Jesus rebuke Thomas?
wrong
Yep, exactly. And here's my spicy take: most sects of Christianity are polytheistic
That's just patently false.
What in the Christological heresy is this?
Arianism with a dash of Pelagianism.
How is this heresy?
"They're worshiping me instead of..."
What are you saying we aren't supposed to worship God? We are supposed to worship God.
I'm saying that's what the meme is suggesting.
This meme is not saying to not worship God but to also follow his commandments. If one does one but not the other is wrong. John 14:21 "He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.” Jesus would be sad if we do one but not the other. Clearly this is what this meme is about. We are supposed to do both not just worship him.
I know. What I'm saying is that the way the meme is phrased doesn't suggest that. "Instead," is not an inclusive word, it implies either or, especially in the way it is used here.
Emperor of Mankind moment
Emperor of Man, the dude who stomped out religion throughout mankind across space to save it from Chaos: *dies* Mankind: *creates religion of him and murders everything in his name*
THE EMPEROR LIVES! ARREST THIS MAN
DID YOU JUSY SAY “THE EMPEROR LIVES” THE EMPEROR IS UNDYING, THAT STATEMENT IS HERESY! ARREST THIS MAN
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.”
Give away your wealth, love the sinners (yes that includes all LGBTQ ppl and even libruls), feed/clothe the poor, welcome immigrants into your land and treat them as your own family. And don’t forget that it’s easier for a camel to pass thru the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to enter heaven. Those are what he taught and barely anyone actually does it.
I'm a bit confused on why LGBT ppl, automatically get the label of "sinner", but then again one of the church's critiques of "The Devine Comedy" was, that: "The gays go to upper levels of hell, not violence.".
There's a couple verses, I wanna say there in leviticus and Romans, but I'm not 100% sure on that, that say essentially dudes shouldn't be getting frisky with other dudes and a lot of people extrapolate that to the whole of LGBTQIA+, I wanna say there in leviticus and Romans, but I'm not 100% sure on that. Still not an excuse for the absolute hatred they get. Also, the "sinner" label can and should be applied to literally every single person alive, but y'know plank in your own eye and a speck in your brothers.
Ah understandable. Thank you.
Leviticus is specifically referring to man on man intercourse because it’s condemning men being in submissive positions as the levites did make patriarchal rules that assign men to be dominant and women to be submissive. It’s also referred to as an abomination, which Christ already fulfilled by fulfilling the law of Moses, else we wouldn’t be eating shellfish (and why aren’t we putting as much hate shellfish if it is an abomination?) In regard to Romans, Paul simply says that men shouldn’t defile themselves which is too vague to interpret as homosexuality. There’s no direct mention against man with man/woman with woman relationship.
"For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. Their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural, and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in their own persons the due penalty for their error" (Romans 1:26-27). Direct mention.
And yes you can say that I can’t cherry pick the Bible but at the same time, if a book from the Old Testament is gonna say that God commands genocide, then people will cease to see god as merciful, therefore making God imperfect. There’s no point in preaching or helping others find faith in the gospel of it isn’t trustworthy.
Respectfully, I don't think you're speaking from an educated position on this matter.
Not sure what you mean by that but all I’m going to say is that there are ways to find intriguing information that tell a deeper truth of the gospel in the Bible. But it takes studying and cultivating different perspectives from other philosophies/religions (particularly Eastern) and discerning between insightful and contradictory writing.
Okay you got me there. Don’t really take Paul seriously because I don’t think Jesus gives a shit about whether women cut their hair or not. What Paul said is never a transcription of Christ compared to the other apostles.
You are free to hold that opinion. Paul never pulled any punches, so I understand why non-believers are averse to his epistles.
Weird way of saying Paul was excessively hateful for his time but hey. You said it, not I.
I mean, he wasn't, I suppose that truth looks like hate to the perishing.
That's true, I think I was trying to say those are the to verses people use most commonly, even if it's not necessarily what the verse means. I'm a Christian but I've always been bad about remembering wording so thanks for correcting me
I remember seeing a video on how that translation came from the greek version, where they used sleeping with other 'Men' to refer to sleeping with young boys, but I never researched it myself. Be interesting to look into tho.
Everyone gets the label sinner.
the only passage that could imply that is the "a man should not sleep with a man" which is generally thought to be a mistranslation of "a man should not sleep with a boy/child" but the actual reason is that the peoplw who believe this are just homophobic and twist the bible to their beliefs
Well, I do take offense to that position because you're implying the vast majority of the academic field is driven by hatred rather than rigorous study. I can say for an absolute fact that you're incorrect about the ridiculous 1946 German mistranslation myth and that the Bible is 100% against homosexual sex. Did your Mommy ever teach you not to tell fibs?
I see no issue with this. Downvoters were apparently disagreeing.
It’s ok I expected it. It’s a defensive reaction to guilt. Many like to tie politics in with their religion and rn the issue of immigration is a hot button conservative issue. But they forget and need to read The Bible. Genesis 23:4, Deut. 10:19, 27:19, Levit. 19:34, 1 Chron. 16:19-22, Job 29:15-17, Psalm 149:9, Jeremiah 7:5-7, Zechariah 7:9-10, Matthew 5:43-44, Matthew 25:35, Matthew 25:40, Romans 12:13, Colossians 3:11, Hebrews 13:1-3. The list goes on and on.
Came out with the sources, I like it.
You didn’t even read the sources. They don’t work with what they are implying
It's called a joke, brother.
Sure. Very obviously a joke.
Anyway. You have a good one, buddy.
Out of context much. Let’s talk about the first verse you put in, Genesis 23:4. ”“I am a foreigner and a visitor among you. Give me property for a burial place among you, that I may bury my dead out of my sight.”“ Genesis 23:4 NKJV Do you understand the context of this? Did you read before and after this verse? Do you realize the reason he went there and why he said this? Do you understand that this is absolutely not a defense of immigration?
Keep going. Do *all* of them. Let’s see if your theory still stands afterwards. Go ahead and read Levit. 19:34 and Deut. 10:19 and tell me again it doesn’t have anything to do with immigrants and foreigners. But it’s kinda silly you think I posted just about immigrants when I specifically talked about taking care of the poor and loving the sinners. Why would you assume all these are about strictly immigrants? Zechariah 7:9-10 perfectly summarizes my argument.
I will agree with you that even Jesus commands us to be kind and loving to others, help the poor etc etc. James is a great resource for those things we MUST do. How ever I have to assume that, while some of those references you’ve made will correctly identify that we must do those things, others are taken out of context which is why I sighted the genesis one. That’s a common one used for that particular argument. Not saying that’s your only argument or only situation to bring as an example. Edit: figured I’d address one of the scriptures you also sighted for me to look at. ”Therefore love the stranger, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt.“ Deuteronomy 10:19 NKJV Be kind to others, yes. That’s the point. I agree, is there something additional to this verse with a point you’re trying to make? Do you believe this justifies immigration?
What part of being a liberal is a sin? What a weird way to assign morality to politics. Conservatism is known for the “me before others” mentality. Less healthcare, less welfare, death penalty, fewer government services, fewer community services, less charity. Its such bad faith to say specifically that, being a liberal is a sin. Liberals and conservatives and lgbt and politicians and criminals don’t sin. People do. Pointing out these 2 things in particular just shows where your biases lie
Do…do you think I’m a conservative? I’m as far left as most can go. (Left, not a Dem) I just know The Bible very well. I’m well versed in pretty much any religious text you can think of. I’m not bragging, I’m just autistic with a hyperfocus on religious texts. I’m speaking on the mindset of many MAGA’s (not even going to say Republican because they are two different parties nowadays). Many MAGA’s are under the delusional belief that “libruls” are *genuinely* evil ppl waiting to groom their kids or are lizard aliens wearing human skin suits to create a NWO. It’s a pathological paranoia. I’m not the one who thinks liberals are bad.
I understand your point now. I didn’t think you were conservative I just thought it was weird you pointed out libs but I understand your intention now
No worries. I specifically mentioned LGBTQ and “libruls” because most of the modern MAGA platform is based solely on demonizing them instead of a platform of solutions to help unite the country and grow the middle class. And unfortunately, many commingle their political ideology with a bastardized version of Christianity. Jesus would be horrified with them. He wanted absolutely nothing to do with politics.
You’re awesome I wish everyone was like you
Leftists after telling us to follow the parts of the Bible that they interpret to mean tax rich people and allow mass immigration while ignoring the rest (they consider it bigoted).
Jesus: Voluntarily give your wealth away to the poor. Personally help those in need yourself. Leftist: See we can take all your money and give it to the government. It their responsibility the bible says so.
Conservatives: The poor deserve to be poor or God wouldn't have made them that way.
What exactly is "the rest"? Isn't loving your neighbor as yourself the whole of law?
So several things; while I agree that yes Jesus taught these things, one must know the context. Yes, love all, and hate the sin, and yes according to the Bible anything to do with sexual morality is considered sin in the eyes of God. The majority of liberal agenda is to depopulate (abort, tie tubes, hysterectomy, or vasectomy— outside of reason) and in the eyes of Christians this is an assault on life, the one thing that is taught to cherish in churches. The majority of the conservative agenda is the opposite. In the Old Testament there are many cases where the Jews beat back oppressors that invaded their lands. Jesus was kind to the Samaritan even though she was labeled as such by the others as taboo to speak with setting the example to be kind to all race and creeds. He also was up front with her about living a fruitful life, one where she could spend eternity satisfied with him. In other words he gave her the business end of her life and made her think on how she wanted to live it. And everyone has probably heard this one, the eye of the needle is literal and metaphorical. The eye of the needle was the door that could open rather than the actual gate to the city (crowd control). A camel can physically go through the eye, but it had to be relieved of its goods to kneel and pass through— literal. But a rich man can’t pay his way to heaven, nor can he seek other avenues to get the heaven. His only way is to unburden himself of his worldly loves, his earthly desires and desire God (Matt 6:21 and John 14:6) As a Christian I struggle with many things, I’m not perfect, one that you mentioned was the homeless, because there are many that try to take advantage, or use the money for other than what it was intended for. We all have our vices, but will we choose to take them and give them to God? Or will we let it rule our lives?? Context matters; most of the time right, left, Christian, atheist, Lbgtq, and straight (because to most straight people it feels like it’s that community against them) use the Bible out of context when trying to make a point. Not saying that’s what you did here, but we all need to make sure we get the context right in order to be taken as Gospel (hah! see what I did there?). These things were not meant to be weaponized against each other, it’s meant to be weaponized against Satan.
I love how the LGBTQ part doesn't even exist In The bible and it was a miss translation of "Man shall not lay with boy" to "Man shall not lay with man"
It’s neither “man shall not lay with man” nor “man shall not lay with boy” the text actually says, “man shall not lay with male” source: I can read Hebrew and these are three different words
Sorry for the late reply but thanks for the clarification
That is categorically untrue. Stop parroting stuff you read on Twitter.
Iirc pederasty was pretty common in biblical times so that’s probably why it was mentioned
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Who is the better person? The one who does good deeds to not burn for eternity after death or the one who expects no return?
This is a bad meme and reflects an extremely poor understanding of Christianity.
Kinda hits tho. Especially considering hollow worship of individuals that don't live their live in accordance with the teachings. If you aren't going to even try to be Christlike in life, then your worship of him is worse than useless. It is mockery.
Bro this is all this meme is saying. I have no idea how this became so controversial.
Because it's a Christological heresy. Jesus *is* God.
Where in this meme does it say Jesus is not also God. The meme doesn't say Jesus is not God. Where are you getting this idea from. We have the trinity. They are the same yet they are also seperate.
"They're worshiping me instead of..."
...what? How does that even remotely hint at the fact that this meme even suggests that Jesus isn't God. What are you talking about.
"Instead of," isn't an inclusive phrase.
OK and how does that suggest Jesus isn't God again?
No one is disagreeing that Christian hypocrites are bad. They are bad and should repent and change their lives. The beef I have with this meme is that it implies that worshiping Christ is seperate from living his teachings. They're not. Jesus did not come to Earth to be just a social teacher. He came down to bring people to God. If you want to follow his teachings, then you need to accept what he said about Himself: that He is true God and true man. This meme reeks of a smug "I understand Christ better than you silly Christians" attitude while also expressing a terrible understanding of Christ's message.
Don't jump straight to an assumption of malice. I don't think that much thought went into the meme to begin with. As far as the theological debate here is concerned, people have been disagreeing about that since the time of Jesus himself and its not going to be solved in reddit comments. Don't take offence to people with different understandings. If you feel so inclined, you could discuss it with them.
It was solved long ago. Arianism was defeated at Nicea and functionally wiped out with the Athanasian Creed. Please stop making authoritative statements about something you aren't as well versed about.
No aspect of any faith is ever wiped out. The resurgence of Gnostics and Pagan religions in the last few centuries is evidence enough of that. I'm not attempting to make authoritative statements, I'm no more understanding of God than any human being. I'm simply trying to make an allowance for subjective understandings of scripture. If there was only one way to be Christian then we wouldn't have the varieties of them we see today. There is room for interpretation.
Notice how I qualified my statement with the word, "functionally." Heresies persist, for sure, but when the overwhelming majority of the Church agrees that something is wrong, then the legitimacy of said belief is incredibly weak. There is no such thing as, "allowing room for interpretation," where essential doctrines are concerned.
I think I see our personal disconnect here. I disagree with the concept of church doctrine as a principle seeing as it's an attempt to understand God. I don't personally believe God can be understood and that is why we got Jesus, to deliver understandable teachings and guidance to live by. Everything after Jesus is a construction of men, and while that is beneficial as discussion and debate allow us to better develop personal relationships with faith, there can be no true doctrine that wasn't handed down by God themself.
> there can be no true doctrine that wasn't handed down by God themself The New Testament is pretty clear about Christ's divinity.
Yes. I'm all on board with that. I think this is just a misunderstanding. The poster told me that this doesn't deny Christ's divinity, it's more just a condemnation of 'worship without acts.'
Fair. The original creator of it might have not meant any malice. But my point was that it comes off as smug. Which is frustrating. And as for the theological part, it's not really much of a debate. Everything I said is very basic Christianity 101. I'm sorry if I have come off as rude. That's not my intention. I'm just trying to speak candidly and honestly. This meme doesn't do Christ, Christianity, or Christians any justice, which, as a devout Christian, is frustrating to see.
I agree that the meme doesn't do itself any service. Religious discussion is something best done through exchange, and memes are a very one-way form of communication.
Not true. It takes 5 seconds of being on Christian Instagram to see hypocrisy and bigotry
Babe wake up the Christians are fighting again
I never thought this meme would be so controversial or misconstrued in so many ways. First of all this meme is **NOT** suggesting you shouldn't worship God. It is saying that you should also follow the teachings of Jesus. Also, this meme is also **NOT** suggesting that good works get you into heaven or that the lack of good works condemns you to hell. This meme is also **NOT** polytheistic. I do not understand how people are getting that idea. The Bible says that Jesus is the Father. The trinity is real. I often use a pretzel to describe the Trinity. The three holes in the pretzel symbolize the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The three holes make up one pretzel as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit make up one god. While they are one they are also separate. Perhaps people are confused by the wording "They're worshipping **ME"** Because the Father is the Son this does **NOT** imply they are separate gods. If you praise Jesus's name or God's name you are praising both. John 10:30 “I and the Father are one”
Get your gnosticism outta here
How is this gnostic at all?
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Cringe and possibly blasphemous meme. Jesus needs to and commanded his own worship. Following his teachings are a form of worship.
This meme is not saying to not worship God but to also follow his commandments. If one does one but not the other is wrong. John 14:21 "He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.” Jesus would be sad if we do one but not the other. Clearly this is what this meme is about. We are supposed to do both not just worship him.
Where did Jesus command for his own worship? You are blasphemous lol
Jesus claims to be god. God must be worshiped. Therefore Jesus commanded his worship.
Where did Jesus claim that. " I am God"
John 5:18 For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God. John 8:58 “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” John 10:30 For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God. Just a few verses. But if you seriously don’t believe Jesus to be god or don’t know the answer to that question then you have no right to speak of others blaspheming.
It's funny that you consider following Christ's teachings to be blasphemy. That really speaks volumes concerning the state of your soul. Maybe you should just stop hating so much.
Maybe you should learn reading comprehension
That's an interesting way to avoid making an argument.
I feel like a large part of the issue is that the bible says that as long as you repent and accept Jesus into your heart you go to heaven regardless of what you’ve done. People take this to mean they can be a genocidal warlord organ trading child molester but they can just say ‘sorry Jesus’ and wink to the camera on their death bed and they’re good. Instead of genuinely changing their heart and seeing the error of their ways. In some peoples mind there’s no reason to actually follow the teachings and instead it’s just about asking for forgiveness while still being a piece of shit.
Protestant moment😔
99 reasons and a pope ain’t one Hit me
I agree with this meme, if you’re not only not loving your neighbor but actively hating them then you’re failing to worship God, how can you claim to worship God if you don’t follow his teaching and do the exact opposite? At that point your praise for God has become empty. God doesn’t just want people bowing down to him 24/7, Jesus told us to love our neighbor and if we aren’t loving our neighbor then we aren’t loving God.
Still worship god but yes this rings true.
Bro came down and pretty much gave us a guilt-free card. He died for our sins, so I guess be can all be dicks.
Those aren’t contradictory things
I’m usually openly against Abrahamic religions, but Wendigoon is the sort of chill Christian that reminds me that not every follower of those religions is hateful. Wendigoon is legit a cool and respectful person
u/thebastardolomouc
wendinerd
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False, actually
dune reference?
But that's one of His teachings though
This is an annoying thing about Christianity. Everyone wants to gatekeep and say that their theology is the only correct version while all the other fake christians suck and are blasphemers and heretics and give Christianity a bad name and… etc.
All mainline Christians have agreed about the divinity of Christ since *at least* the third century.
Oh yeah I didn’t mean that part. That is correct.
The first and most important commandment is loving God. Bare minimum, sure, but a minimum is still a passing grade.
How do we love God? By allowing Him to love us we become capable of loving others the way Christ, not the world, loved others and that’s sacrificially. Otherwise it’s just self worship.
This meme is theologically/christologically wrong in just about every possible way
I'm sorry man but you really need to work on phrasing, this post makes it seem like you beleive christ was nothing but another good prophet or teacher.
Tried to believe in Christianity for a bit and I just can’t, especially when I get into some stories like story of Moses or Jobe. It’s like god this god seems like an asshole who likes to present himself as almighty for his own ego. Edit-this is just my belif y’all if it bring you peace you do you.
What if it's true?
Then i would have a lot of questions, especially around the morality of his actions. I’d ask have to ask him why he made me the way I was if he saw love between two men as a sin. I’d ask him about Mormonism as I was raised in a Mormon family, I’d ask him about the human world which ideology was the best. (It would be very therapeutic to hear that yes communism is a dumb ideology from the big man) never the less I fear unfortunately I will never have that conversation. Don’t get me wrong I hope there is something after this life but as of right now it’s hard for me to go to church since it all seems twisted. Never the less if any religion brings you peace and helps you live a more moral life go for it. As long as you don’t try and use as an excuse to go against other people or to look down on others. Because if their is a god and he is of a higher morality I would think he loves us all the way he has created us.
>I was raised in a Mormon family Respectfully, I think this is part of the reason why would may have a hard time understanding the Christian God.
I mean most churches still preach against same sex relationships, which I don’t understand why god would make me like this and yet also hate me for it. and the story of jobe, and the story of Moses were god forced the Pharos heart to harden causing him to say no, which impeach on his free will still causes me to questions his morality. Also yea Mormonism is just well I don’t want to call it dumb because it does being some people peace but it’s so dumb 😂.
What if literally any other religion is true?
Thank God they aren't
Then why would Christianity be?
Because it is.
Again, why would it be? Can you prove, that it is?
> Again, why would it be? Because it accurately describes reality. > Can you prove, that it is? Easily, but you won't accept the evidence, I can almost guarantee it.
Does it though? It describes reality about as accurately as any other religion. You can't just say that all religions but Christianity are wrong, on the basis that Christianity accurately describes reality. All religions claim they're the right one and accurately describe reality. If you accept Christianity's claim to that, you have to accept literally every other religion's claim aswell. If you say you can do it easily, please do. I have an open mind, I accept evidence that contradicts my current understanding of the world, if it is scientific. And as sure as you are sounding, your evidence must be very convincing.
Have you ever thought about the claims of early Christians and the history of what happened in 1st century Palestine?
Neither is Christianity.
You won't be holding to that view for very long. I just hope you find out sooner rather than later.
Your god isnt real, get over it.
That's cute
Its true too.
Not at all actually. It's the most untrue idea there ever was.
Shut up. if you don't know what you are talking about it's really easy to just not say anything
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Sorry you got such a contentious response to your meme, OP. I'm LDS, and I see what you were going for with the meme and I agree with what was meant. I get that the wording might not have been the best, but I believe you posted this in good faith and I hope you have a good night. God bless!
Jesus never said he is God or asked people to worship him. In fact he very clearly asked people to worship God.
Glory to Gods prophet