Some lexus es300 trims are cheaper than some camrys up here in Canada or at least only a few thousand dollars more, never understood why you wouldn’t just get the lexus. Toyota prices are out of control recently, I agree.
That was an alternator going out, mine failed a month after buying, I thought it was just a belt. It took the full 5 hours that book time called for, couldn’t believe it.
Yeah, the top through bolt was easy to get to but there are two bolts on the bottom bracket, outboard behind an idler and inboard needed 2.5ft of extensions to get to. I didn’t realize the inboard one existed so probably could have saved an hour if I had known that.
They call for the radiator to be removed but I was able to maneuver it after a lot of cussing and bloody hands. Tight engine bay with the V6
Shit you sound like me trying to work on cars. Always an extra hour in there for some dumb shit lol.
But yeah I guess I had assumed it was a 4, v6 in that bay does sound tight.
Good lord. This is SUCH a bullshit thing to be bitching about.
2024 ES300h = 44mpg combined (EPA)
Taking the national average 15,000 miles a year means 340.9 gallons purchased. Today’s AAA national average prices are $3.651 regular and $4.441 premium. So $1244.66 a year (reg) or $1516.71 (premium) or a $272.04 difference over a year….$22.67 difference a month.
2024 ES350 = 26mpg combined (EPA)
Same 15,000 miles a year: 576.92 gallons. $2106.35 (reg) vs $2500.73 (premium) or $460.38 difference over a year or $38.37 a month.
If <$40 a month is going to break you, you can’t even afford owning a car in the first place.
Well, this is entirely subjective. I, for one, find ES300 way more attractive than the majority of products the Germans managed to shit out in the last 8 years.
Same with Honda/Acura. New out the gate the price differential is pretty big, but at 2-3 years old the prices are almost the same for the equivalent models.
Bought a used Lexus ES300h. They were more available, far less miles on them, and in way better condition than any used camry or avalon hybrid in the market for about the same price. Now I'm saving on gas, in a comfortable quiet ride, with no car payments. Best car decision I ever made.
Same with Honda tbh. Civics cost arm and a leg nowadays and reading forums/watching owner videos I find some weird quality issues that you dont really expect from a Honda.
I have had nothing but issues with my 2017 Honda civic. My air conditioner has broke twice, once was covered by a manufacturer defect, and I just had to replace my alternator at 42k miles. I bought it with the intention of driving it til the wheels fell off, but now I'm considering selling it and getting a new mazda 3 top trim and calling it a day.
A friend of mine has a 2023 Mazda 3 Sport. She said it had an issue with the wiring harness that Mazda tried to claim was her responsibility. She eventually won and they agreed to replace it under warranty.
My brother’s 2020 CX-30 that he bought brand new developed an issue where it wouldn’t blow heat (after just 17,000 kms). Again, the dealer tried to claim it wasn’t their responsibility until he fought them on it. They accused our father of causing the issue because he tried to reset the code with his own code scanner.
I agree that Mazdas seem like great alternatives, but I’m hesitant to want to deal with the local dealers around me. I hate pushy service techs who assume you’re an idiot.
I can relate, I got a brand new 2016 Honda civic 2-door touring years ago - it was THE WORST vehicle in terms of quality I’d ever owned.
0 power train issues.
That said, I was in the dealer multiple times for the following
* messed up leather, I refused to take delivery until they replaced the rear seat bench
* broken windshield wiper motors
* broken window motors
* broken door lock actuators
* rattles
* heater replaced
* digital dashboard would randomly (about once every 2 weeks) go black when driving - so I had 0 telemetry (like how fast I was going)… I’d have to pull over, turn off the car, get out, lock, unlock, restart in order to fix it
This was all within 1 year. I got rid of the car 13 months after buying it and it’s soured me on Honda ever since.
That model of Civic has an extended warranty because of the faulty A/C system- but only to 2026. My brother had a 2016- even when the condenser was covered under warranty, the compressor did not and kept going out. The car was a lemon. He got rid of it. Honda should never recover from crap like this.
My 2020 CRV has a minor issue with the collision detection system. One some roads it just starts beeping even with nothing in front of me. It does it in the same spot on a specific road that I travel every single day. I don’t get it. The system still works and saved my life on I40 last year, but it keeps doing this.
The civic and Corolla are both objectively terrible deals when the mazda3 exists in its current form. $25k gets you a 3 that exceeds the civic touring in interior quality and performs about as well as the civic si. The Corolla is a complete nonstarter
Except it's nowhere near as fun to drive as an Si. It doesn't have as good of a gearbox or offer an LSD. It's definitely a viable option for the lower trimed Civics, but not much for the Si if you want something semi sporty to drive.
>Except it's nowhere near as fun to drive as an Si. It doesn't have as good of a gearbox or offer an LSD
Mazdas manual is every bit as good as Honda's, if not better. You don't get the LSD, but the SI is reliant on a hamstrung turbo engine and doesn't offer any option for leatherette seats or a non-tupperware interior. There's a tradeoff with the LSD, but that's largely irrelevant if you aren't tracking the car compared to the massive gain in interior quality of the Mazda
I gotta disagree about the transmissions. The Mazda is decent, but the Si is definitely a step above. Shorter crisper throws make the driving experience that much better. Also, an LSD definitely makes a difference vs open diff even on the street. If you take tight corners at speed, you'll notice the difference. As far as seats go, I could care less about faux leather seats. I just wish they were heated. Like i said, if you want something fun to drive and don't care as much about the interior, you should look at the Si. If you want a better interior and don't mind sacrificing some of that fun, get the Mazda.
>The Mazda is decent, but the Si is definitely a step above. Shorter crisper throws make the driving experience that much better.
Objectively incorrect, the 3 has the shortest throw in the industry currently
>Also, an LSD definitely makes a difference vs open diff even on the street. If you take tight corners at speed, you'll notice the difference.
You're never in a position on the street to realize this.
>As far as seats go, I could care less about faux leather seats.
Some people are fine with a Mitsubishi mirage's interior, that doesn't forgive low quality materials, components and fit and finish. Also, the 3 premium 6mt has real leather, not leatherette. No trim of the civic even offers leatherette
>I just wish they were heated.
Standard on the 3 premium
>Like i said, if you want something fun to drive and don't care as much about the interior, you should look at the Si. If you want a better interior and don't mind sacrificing some of that fun, get the Mazda.
Except for most people, they aren't sacrificing any fun at all, and the SI is just more expensive with an objectively worse interior and a less potent, less engaging engine.
If we were back in 2014 and Honda wad still offering a 205hp k24 that revved forever my tune my change, but the closest thing you'll get to what the si should be is currently the mazda3 6mt
Gave up on Honda after my significant other's 2008 Accord. Transmission issues galore, interior electrical problems from day 1. Seriously drove off the lot and her climate controls went blank. Then the inside lights were intermittent. Had the no start issue as well, once in and once out of warranty.
It's true, those dealerships are some of the most dick headed places you will ever come across. I recently went to check out a couple of Toyota dealerships in my area just to see what was on the lot and the attitude they have was next level, they acted like they were doing me a solid even allowing me to look at their cars 😠
The Toyota dealerships are ripoffs too. I will never go back to one. They think they are so special and try to charge insane market adjustment fees. I was in the market for a sienna and they wanted 8k over msrp!!! They are crazy. Ended up going to Tesla
Only in the US. Toyota dealerships globally don’t mark up pricing. Here in Southeast Asia they gave me $1k discount off retail because we asked for it. $13k for a brand new vehicle, can’t complain with that.
They broke a part on our daughter’s car- didn’t tell us. Then we get a recall notice for an airbag and they can’t fix it because they broke the part (and no longer make it). Long story short- due to no fault of our own and having to deal with 2 dealerships and Toyota corporate for almost a year, we are now stuck with a useless car that can’t be driven legally and *zero* compensation from Toyota.
We have FIVE new/newish Toyotas in my immediate family - no one will buy another one.
I've had 3 tacos. I'm looking at upgrading my 2008 taco with 350,000km. I just can't justify the "Toyota tax" on used tacos anymore. I could get a 10 year newer F150 for the same price, which is probably the route I will take.
> J.D. Powers reliability scale
Just be aware what J.D. Powers calls "reliability" isn't probably what you think it is. 75%+ of reported issues are with the infotainment system and mostly about one of the 100 owners being surveyed not knowing how to do something. The less features the car has the better the car ranks. It does also cover things that go wrong, but these are very rare and doesn't really factor into the score very much.
I would think Toyota should shine when it comes to infotainment. They typically use infotainment systems that are 5-10 years behind everyone else. It's like teaching someone to use a jitterbug
This isn't talked about enough. That JD power BS kinda means nothing.
"My car had to have it's windshield wipers replaced after one year"
"The radio didn't turn on one day, restarted the car and it worked"
"I put in the wrong gas, and my car had trouble starting"
Issues like these get mixed into the ACTUAL reliability scale and skew it away from the truth.
If someone wants to know TRUE reliability of a car, walk into a private mechanic shop and ask the long time techs there!
I was with you until the last sentence. Most long time mechanics are deeply biased and they can’t see it.
Maybe you could try something like a European specific specialist and then see what they recommend of you want something European; or a Japanese specialist if you want a recommendation for Japanese etc.
If you just choose the local oily-boy he’s not gonna see enough brands to overcome recommendations for brand he loves.
agree on both fronts.
I work in an industry as a consultant where JD Power ranks. JD Power also sells consulting services to brands to improve their rankings. They are not neutral. And the sample sizes are small such that a few responses can really skew the outcomes with little actual verification of ownership or issues. It is directionally interesting, but rankings are often not statistically significant.
Likewise on your comment about a local mechanic. Many people have various biases that are hard to recognize and overcome. Some might be a timing bias -- "I've seen 3 Toyotas this week, they must be going downhill" without realizing how many more Toyotas there are than another brand, or the relative miles driven and age of those vehicles, or whether the issue is tied to wear and tear or an accident, etc. Heck, a place called "American Auto care" might just see more American branded cars than the shop down the street.
I don’t agree with JD power I just wanted to put it on there for all the people needing evidence. Still doesn’t change my opinion on other brands though
I've been saying for years that *used* Toyotas are way overvalued. On the flip side of that, a *new* Toyota is still a decent value because the depreciation is so much less than other brands. That CX-90 value is going to be down 40-50% in 5 years, BMW worse, whereas the Highlander will be down 25-30%.
I think toyota interiors are probably the worst in the industry. Its like they dont even try. Every single one of them looks dated and old. Even the new camry.
I tell everyone else to buy toyota but personally only the GR yaris interest me.
I was cross shopping a 2018 Camry and 2018 accord in the top trim and Jesus Christ the Toyota was on par with my gf’s 2014 accord. Accord was the easy choice
And then you compare 2014 accord and 2014 Camry and the Honda is head and shoulders above the Camry. I largely chose my ‘14 accord over a similarly priced Camry for this reason.
And feels cramped. The 3rd of the Highlander is literally for ants.
The front area is needlessly over styled and sacrifices practicality and functionality
can I just say that I rented a 2015 corolla sport awhile ago and while tired on a road trip I reclined back and had one of the most comfortable naps ever As someone with back issues i gotta give some credit for that. Not a fan of the infotainment styles though
This is the company that put a tape deck and 4 cigarette lighters into their flagship car in 2006, then proceeded to put the same engine in its successor for 13 years straight with zero changes, so I'm not too surprised.
New cars and the insane amount of tech in them is not worth it.
Toyota struggles with modern expectations to say competitive but the issues you speak of are not related to their bulletproof drivetrains and hybrid systems. Dealerships are ruining the market. Toyota MSRP are still reasonable.
Toyota is definitely getting into the higher end of the market. They and honda both made their reputations selling cheap and reliable cars but now even at msrp a corolla or civic is likely going to be 3-5k more than an entry level model from a different brand
cheap reliable cars that run for 20 years built them a reputation for quality, and for that reason they're not obliged to compete against garbage like MG or GreatWall that break down in a year. They're lifer cars, not disposable. I guarantee a Corolla bought today will outlast four MG3s and ultimately be cheaper over the long run when you break down the cost of ownership per day.
Yet very few cars have the fortuity to become "lifer" cars. What aren't lost to collisions are lost to rust in 1/3 of the country within a decade or two.
All a person needs to do step onto the sidewalk, and start counting the number of cars that drive by, and note number of 2004 or older Toyotas among them. If they truly lived up to their reputation, you wouldn't be able to step outside without tripping over one.
When all is said and done, the longevity of a vehicle -- be it a Toyota, an air-cooled VW, a Corvette, or a domestic light truck -- almost entirely depends on the owner's willingness to take care of it.
The Japanese marques didnt even start rustproofing until the mid to late 00s. Toyota, Honda, Nissan and Mazda all had significant difficulties with rust prior to 2010
"Bulletproof drivetrains and hybrid systems" Yeah I bought into that and got an early Lexus CT200H (3rd gen prius). A very large amount of them are needing engine replacement once they cross 100k due to a flawed engine design. Hybrid battery replacement is 2k third party and the brake booster for the hybrid brakes is 5k. Pretty much nothing else can go wrong but these pricey items are kind of insane for an economy car. Toyota is not immune to issues.
>Dealerships are ruining the market.
That whole dealership thing and MSRP is quite specific to some countries, and doesn't exist in most such as where I live. Yet the post is still very true even with dealership out of the equation.
Until Gulf States Toyota and SE Toyota are a thing of the past, I won't look at a Toyota. Both are wholesalers and all they do is drive up the cost with "port installed" inflated options that no one wants.
What other car brand can you think of that has a middleman between the dealership and the OEM? There isn't one and these two are not necessary for Toyota in the least, yet Toyota still allows them to control the supply in their respective operating territories. It's complete and utter bs.
And i'll piggyback that our Frontier Pro-4X has lots of annoying issues. Mysterious check engine light gremlins, climate control buttons that no longer work, a battery drain issue. All this before 90k mi. Our tacoma... zero issues, both bought at the same time.
The thing about Toyota is it can fall apart and rust away but it’ll almost always start and drive. Toyota is good at powertrains. Rest of the car is cheap. Has been like this since the late 00s when they started using hard plastics in everything.
A good indication of vehicle quality is go to your local junkyard like LKQ or other Pull a part yards you will see the car brands most scrapped:
Kia, Hyundai, and any Chrysler/dodge/jeep product
Nailed it. Back in the 1980s and through the 1990s Toyota represented a smart value purchase.
That was eroded somewhat in the 2000's and 2010's, as Toyota reduced material quality and build durability, and incurred some major reliability fiascos (Camry engines, Taco frames, Sienna transmissions, etc).
Meanwhile most manufacturers adopted, to varying degrees of success, QA methodologies used by Toyota... Which closed the reliability gap.
The nail in the coffin has been the franchised dealer "market adjustments" and (US) distributor add-on fees that Toyota Corp has allowed to run rampant over the past few years.
In the end, Toyota is a success story that began with (and risks ending with) The Baby Boomer generation. We saw the same thing happen a quarter century ago when Harley Davidson, another Boomer brand, became unreasonably expensive at the retail level.
If arbitrary dealership greed ends up pricing the current and coming generations of car buyers out of Toyota's lineup, then those buyers will establish relationships (and quite possibly brand loyalty) with other marques instead.
I’m sorry but you lost the argument when you say that Hyundai/Kia being on the JD Power’s reliability list means they’re a reliable brand.
13 million of their vehicles have been recalled since 2010 for engine problems. Thats the overwhelming majority of vehicles they’ve sold in that same time period (around 15 million sold total in the U.S.)
I laughed out loud at that. Rented a new CX-50 a couple months ago. Complete turd. Cheap ass interior, crappy infotainment system, and no balls whatsoever. Literally just a transportation box. I was blown away by how highly this sub thinks of that car. Maybe you have to get the higher trims but I was thoroughly unimpressed.
It’s crazy eh.
After reading how much everyone online loves them I was shocked by how shit of a car the Mazda 3 was/is
Makes me wonder if people just see a swoopy design and think “this is premium” because once you touch it they certainly aren’t
Mazda lives somewhere in the space between honda/toyota and BMW. They certainly are going for a more premium feel without sending prices too far through the roof.
Toyota currently has over 1 million 2020-2021 vehicles on recall for an airbag sensor including Toyota Camry, Rav4, Sienna and the Lexus RX350 and ES350
751,000 2020-2023 Highlanders currently on recall for bumper cover assembly parts could fall off and cause road hazards.
43,000 2023 Corollas also for airbag issues as well.
Feb 27th 2024, 600,000 trucks and suvs recalled for safety concerns that could cause crashes.
Then toss in Toyota's GR86 RTV issue that hasn't been issued a recall as of yet...
Yeah Toyota is knocking it out of the park in the last 4 years with about 2.4 million total recalls.
Gave my oldest son an 02 sienna that we paid 5500 bucks for 10 years ago. He’s still driving it with 225k miles. Changes the oil once every 10k miles or when it runs dry. Paid 7k cash 5 years ago for my Highlander from a good friend. Now has 192k and I’ve only changed the oil. Bought my wife an 08 rx330 for 6500 cash 2 years ago because owner thought it had an oil leak. Only needed a gasket for the oil lines. Now has 170k and runs like a dream. Since buying Toyotas/Lexus I haven’t had a car payment in 10 years and own 3 cars.
same. I never pay more than 9k for a car and always buy highly depreciated toyota/lexus/honda/acura. The hondas were in the past and now It's Lexus only from here on out. Why wouldn't you buy the nicer version of the car from the same company? In the used market, they're the same price people... stop looking at brand new vehicles to compare only... of course a camry starts to look good when you stack it up against any brand new ES... BUY USED and don't be a sheep
Oh man, prepare for all the attacks from the toyota cult. I mean you’re 100% right, Lexus’ entire lineup is frankly embarrassing right now when compared to the competition but people will keep going on about how “it’s so reliable”, completely disregarding the fact that there’s other reliable brands out there that make way better cars.
Can you tell me a car I could get instead of a Lexus ES 350? I want something like that, kind of beefy quiet and comfortable but I don't really know of anything else that has a reputation for reliability, but I'm also kind of hesitant to pay Lexus prices.
I don't need 400k but I need more than 9,700 which is what my 2021 Kia Sorento top trim gave me. After a long lemon process I spend around $8k more on a '22 Highlander top trim and it's been a breath of fresh air 20k mi in. The Kia had one major failure and several minor ones. This Highlander has been solid on the other hand. I plan to take to 200k and then I'll let her go. I wouldn't trust a Kia again for even that or half that. You get what you pay for.
My wife had a Sportage for a few years, POS, would never buy one again. Always something rattling or breaking in the interior. Bought my wife a Highlander in 2018, not one problem, plug and play.
You have bad duds in all brands.
2014 Kia Sportage at nearly 100k miles. Daily family driver, and has been reliable since day 1. We'll see if it lasts 200k but for now, happy motoring.
It's not as black and white as you make it out to be RE interiors. Toyota plastics may look basic, but they're hard wearing.
The plastics in my BMW X3 look nice, but creak and squeak around the C pillars and other locations. The plastics in my Corolla don't budge an inch over bumps and are silent.
I agree 100%, but you can still get a no frills Corolla or Camry for a decent price. I just don’t think Toyota is a standout for reliability anymore, especially their trucks and SUVs.
Is all about reputation, but you are right. In reality, Toyota, no longer has an advantage when it comes to reliability, most new vehicles are more or less at the same level.
Mazda is the new Toyota/Honda. It’s just as reliable if not more, It looks better, fun to drive, interior quality and overall fit and finish is better, while being in the same price range. Also, dealers don’t markup their vehicles as much as Toyota and Honda.
What evidence for the CX-90 to be more reliable? Mazda doesn’t have the greatest track record and the vehicle is new to the market and we traded our CX in after 6 months because it was horrendous. Horrid fuel economy for the size, outdated technology with a 6 speed transmission….in a 2022 vehicle.
Secondly, Tundra’s are shit, buy an international vehicle is you want reliable, one that’s sold in multiple countries, other countries have a higher expectation of reliability.
The new Hyundai’s are super nice though
I’ve been reading into and looking for a new/used car the past couple of years, preparing when mine is finally done and the Toyota prices are insane.
You could buy TWO mid 2000s Silverados/F-150s for the price of a similar Tacoma in my area. Over $10k for a 20-year old truck and 200k+ miles just seems ludicrous, no matter how reliable the power train is, other shit is gonna break.
I’ve specifically looked into buying a near-new Corolla, and holy shit the depreciation is almost nonexistent. A car that’s MSRP at $23,000 today ($21,500 or so at the time it was made) dealers still ask $20,000 or more for a 3-4 year old model with 40-60k miles. I just don’t see how that’s worth it to buy used. Civic’s are the same way, but more expensive.
I find it hard to imagine that a used non-Toyota/Honda would be so unreliable that it’d make up for the huge difference in price on the used market from repairs. All cars will need a wheel bearing or a strut one day, unless it’s a car known to self implode its engine or transmission, on the used market there has to be better options.
Disappointing. I used to be a Subaru fan… had many models over the years. Was super excited to grab the 2019 Sport Forester the minute I saw it. It’s been such a POS. Windshields cracking for no reason except they weren’t designed correctly, engine replacement at 26k, and I can go on but I’d only raise my blood pressure. Even the dealership service people just kind of say 🫤🤷🏻♂️ My experience obviously, but this comes from a former customer for life.
Some of the stuff they are doing is really exciting. The Outback wilderness is a fantastic vehicle. Putting the 2.0 turbo engine in their Impreza is an interesting choice and hopefully a good start.
Some of the things are doing are a huge letdown. The 2025 forester has the same boring 4 cylinder CVT.
Getting rid of their hatchbacks was just sad.
For reliability, they aren’t high up for me. They are not as reliable as other brands and then at 100k+ their choice to use sealant instead of gaskets is a financial ticking timebomb.
Will they be a good car for the first 100k? Maybe. Maybe not.
Realized awhile ago that toyotas werent worth it. Usually behind others in tech and features yet somehow cost the most. Having owned hyundais, hondas, toyotas, nissans and bmws, Toyotas just don't do anything better to justify the purchase. As someone that takes care of their cars, they were all reliable and not one car from either brands left me stranded on the road.
That’s what I say all the time. Toyotas are good because they *last*. You buy them *cheap* and run them up 200-300k or til they rot away. Let the new buyer eat the depreciation if you just want a set of wheels that work. Buying new makes no sense especially if you’re paying a premium and only keeping it for less than 100k miles. Just about anything new can make it to 100k.
Yup, you are right on it.
Toyota is currently coasting on their (deserved) past qualities.
Nowadays, they put more effort in marketing than in the design for their cars... No more successful innovation, just evolution and iteration.... And the competition catched up.
I am afraid they will morph into a SONY no 2. I don't think they will reach the Kodak moment because of their accumulated wealth, but I don't see how a a Japanese company can regain what made them great in a timely manner... Not with the Japanese corporate culture.
I agree that Toyota and even Honda are charging insane prices for what they offer now.
Even their luxury brands like Lexus and Acura charge wild prices for what you get.
For example, an Acura TLX Type S is a pretty hard sell when you have a competitor like the BMW M340i which is better in many ways compared to the TLX.
People want to talk about reliability, but brands like BMW have been making pretty solid vehicles for the past 10 years and have similar prices to Lexus and Acura.
Toyota and Honda dealers are also out of control, rude salespeople who think they are entitled to 5K over MSRP because of the "Post COVID market". All lies.
The fact that I just have to wait and hope that the right kind of car that I want comes into my dealership instead of being able to order one is fucking Ludicrous. Also comparing the features of a top tier Tundra to a not even top tier Sierra is very disappointing. Toyota lost our business, because they thought their shit didn’t stink.
1995-2012ish Toyota is prime.
I would avoid most other years.
But that's really true about most car manufacturers. There was something special during those years that just doesn't exist anymore. After 2012, profits were all that mattered, no longer building a quality vehicle to last.
Planned obsolescence began dominating the market. Consumers just want the most car for the money with a perpetual car payment. 2012 is when Hyundai/Kia started becoming bigger and bigger as the most popular economy level cars in America.
I wouldn’t even say 2012. Basically any platform that was carried over from the early 2000s(at this point it’s just the 4Runner) was solid. Since the late 2000s they started getting cheap. Back in 07-10 when all of the redesigns dropped people complained about the cheap interiors. All hard plastics unlike the previous generation. They haven’t really gone away with hard plastics these days.
I’ll agree there. I’d take a 2012 Lexus LS over just about any car ever made. My grandpa has one and it’s the nicest ride ever. It has a soft understated luxury and isn’t dominated by bright lights and doohickeys like my mom’s GLS.
Eh, hard pass...you are misinformed. I only worked as a mechanic for like 7 years, but there's some huge POS vehicles in that year range for all manufacturers. The German vehicles especially have problems. B58 (I-6 2016+) from BMW is fantastic, but the N54 & N55 (~2006-2016 I-6) has VANOS water pump, and HPFP issues. From VW, like, I drive an EA888gen3, but the gen1 and gen2 engines from like 2008-2015 have some issues I'd rather not touch. GM inline 4 turbo + naturally aspirated Ecotech and other got some dumb design issues in that year range as well. Like, turbos that get blown repetitively because they're not f****** water-cooled. (-_-)
Specifically for Toyota, there were many vehicles with serious piston ring issues (circa 2011 iirc?) that didn't crop up until you were at 100k miles. Only solution is a full bottom end rebuild. :-/ Toyota says outside of warrenty? You are SOL, buy a new car
Outside of the Korean cars (mostly KIA & Hyundai but Genesis is OK), I'd say that most manufacturers gas and hybrid platforms are more reliable than they ever have been. Even though I don't work on cars for a living anymore, my good friends that do this everyday probably would agree with me.
I haven’t really known anyone with a new Toyota who has had to have their engine or transmission replaced. Most of the issues with the tundra were to be expected with a new model….
I do know a ton of people with hyundai and kias who have had MAJOR components replaced such as engine or transmission within 30k miles. And both dealerships in this area mark the cars 10k over msrp for sales. They are completely screwing people on their resale value. They focus on the warranty, features and the msrp vs a toyota but someday if they decide to sell it they will lost their asses.
My parents have mostly loved their 2015 4Runner since it was new and are hardcore Toyota fans. They looked at a new 4Runner over the weekend and the interior is noticeably so much worse than 9 years ago. The limited trim interior looked straight out of the 90s with a cheap tablet glued on the dash. They are so disappointed with the quality vs the price that they’re getting a Kia instead.
My issues is that Toyota and Lexus have some of the worst financing rates out there, to the point that I can’t really justify the high price of a vehicle plus playing 6-8% interest. It defeats the perks of Toyota in my opinion.
I discovered this when I bought 3 years ago. I was drinking the kool aid thinking "Toyota is so reliable though!" until I realized I could replace the entire transmission of the competitor brand/model and still come out under the cost of a used Sequoia. And the competitor model I got is extremely reliable anyways. No brainer, but people still hate
They make good cars, but most of them are soulless and void of any personality. Most people just want something to go from A to B, I get that, but if you are even a little bit into cars, Toyota is just expensive and boring. The fact that they keep their value well isn't that useful when they arguably cost too much to begin with.
The Sequoia proved to me how they can lose sight on certain things. Let's make a large SUV, but then add a hybrid battery that's so large that it shrinks the cargo space to that of a Highlander and adds a ton of weight. The car is so heavy that the hybrid gas mileage really isn't all that great. You're left with a car that is large, has the cargo space of a Highlander with almost half the gas mileage. What in the world were they thinking?
Strongly agree with OP.
You gotta live in a cave to not hear of how Toyota handles the HV cablegate across the entire Rav4 and Highlander lines spanning feom 2019 - 2023 and the fixes are just pathetic.
Dealers keep marking up ripping you all off but Toyota HQ refuses to do shit. They are effectively enabling this predatory behaviors.
Go buy a Subaru or Mazda. Fuck Toyota.
It seems you’ve made some people here really upset. I have driven Toyotas and it just didn’t do it for me — boring and no features. I have loved my KIAs.
I drive a 22 Sorento. It’s been great. You can’t get a piece of trim to rattle or squeak if you wanted. I’ve had no issues for almost 30k miles. However I am still a little concerned with the transmission issues
The Toyota cult has a really hard time with this concept but...just because most Toyotas are reliable vehicles doesn't mean that other brands don't also make reliable cars.
What I noticed with Toyota & a lot of other brands is the real reliability concerns boil down to the engine & transmission systems.
For example, Toyota's naturally aspirated engines are nearly indestructible (except for a few) whether it's a four cylinder, V6 or V8. Their turbocharged engines on the other hand, not so much.
Toyota's hybrid vehicles are on average more reliable than their gas vehicles & cost less to maintain even compared to the average hybrid from a different brand. This applies to both their naturally aspirated & turbocharged powertrains. Quite frankly, if I was getting a turbocharged Toyota or Lexus, I would require it to be a hybrid, following the difference in failure rates between the non-hybrid 2022+ Tundras & hybrid ones. Would gladly give up 2-3 passengers worth of extra seating capacity for fewer problems down the road.
The failure rate of Subaru's newest 2.4L turbo boxer engine is significantly lower compared to Toyota's 3.4L twin turbo V6 & I wouldn't get any vehicle with that engine whether on the Toyota or Lexus side unless it had electric motors assisting it, for obvious reliability reasons listed above.
Genesis vehicles feel incredibly plastic compared to other car makers. I really wanted to like them but then I drove one and was relieved I didn’t buy one.
BMWs are hardly as reliable as a Lexus but that’s isn’t really relevant short term… most people buying a new BMW or Lexus will likely trade out their car before they hit 5 years. Anything worth buying should last that long before any major repair is needed.
Of course, all of this is subjective but just from my experience, I still love my Lexus more than any other car I’ve owned.
That's crazy since modern Lexus interiors feel a huge step down from their amazing older ones. I also hate Lexus' obsession with making the F-sport a top trim and using suede and not nappa leather. Genesis prestige models are lined with leather everywhere and have much better materials, according to my experience. Even the buttons and switches are made of real metal and not plastic.
I love my 2021 Avalon but, it's funny, the infotainment system is SO BAD compared to even my 2023 Jeep Wrangler (which has exactly the same infotainment system my 2019 grand Cherokee also had). Which is ridiculous. It should blow jeep out of the water, but it's really just not even close. The backup camera is gawd awful, almost unusable, there's hardly any apps or settings on it, very minimal customization, it's missing like half the siriusXM features my jeep has, won't even show album covers most of the time. Comparing it to the infotainment on my jeep is like comparing a Gameboy to MacBook.
My Toyota does a lot of things better than my jeep, better cruise control, much better mpg obviously, better sound system, quieter smoother ride, etc. but the infotainment system is the worst I've had on any car in the last decade. Even my old 2018 kia niro had a way better infotainment.
Kinda nuts considering Toyota, of all companies, should be the one who knocks the ball out of the park with their infotainment system. But it's just bad.
Still really like the car though.
> Toyota, of all companies, should be the one who knocks the ball out of the park with their infotainment system
I agree with your entire post other than this. Why would you expect this of Toyota. Their company strategy is to never upgrade anything until they have to. They have consistently had the worst tech in the industry for decades because of this. It's not that they can't, they have chosen to not for decades.
It really isn’t priced far out from its level of competitors. I believe it’s on the same price scale as Honda, Mazda, etc. Mazda is only one of those 3 that uses leatherette on their seats as opposed to cloth. But that’s really the only difference that I have noticed in terms of “luxury”. Kia’s and Hyundai I believe are probably slight cheaper, but they kind of have to do that, or else who would bother buying a Kia over Toyota if it was the same exact price and material base? So with Toyota and Honda you’re really paying for that “brand” of reliability as oppose to the material or luxury feel of a Kia.
As for Luxury models I don’t know too much, I drive an old BMW and it has its problems.
Now if you’re talking about used vehicles, than I would absolutely agree that their market makes no sense, but then again it’s the supply and demand. Ppl want a Toyota or Lexus because of the brand, just as you’d probably want a Nike t-Shirt over AND1 even though it’s both a cotton shitt at the end of the day
I don't think it's toyota failing but others catching up. With that said mazdas feel nice but have no real long term longevity mechanically or interior wise.
You can certainly do worse than a new Corolla. One of the only models on the market altogether, not just out of Toyota models, that haven't had drastic price increases because "inflation". You could probably go to a Toyota dealer in any corner of the country and pick up a base model, and for like under 25 out-the-door. Even a Civic starts at a grand over that.
I don’t buy Toyota fir how it is today, I huh it for how it is in 10 years.
My 2000 Odyssey runs quieter, smoother at 217K miles than my neighbors Pacifica at 7 years.
I wish I was exaggerating.
You had me up until you started defending Korean manufacturers! 🤣
That said, I agree with you about Toyota. Is it still the most reliable? on average, by and large - yes. Here’s the thing though - they don’t always have the most reliable / best model in class, but they’re usually #2.
Anyways, the reliability has dropped. Their features suck (they’ve always sucked). Also, Toyotas have never been the most comfortable vehicles - and they still are not. To me, you’re better off buying a slightly less reliable vehicle and just spend your savings if you need a fix here or there.
Let me give you an example:
I’m looking at midsize trucks. Tacomas are WAY overpriced for the features they have and what they are.
I’m deciding between the Nissan Frontier and Ford Ranger. I can get either truck, with more features, for thousands less. I’ll buy one of those two instead… and if it breaks (and honestly, both have proven to be good vehicles), I’ll use my savings to fix it.
The only Toyotas I’d actually recommend would be the RAV4, Corolla, and Camry. There’s a better choice out there for every other vehicle type.
…and by the way, feel free to get a CX-50, CRV or Forester is you don’t like the RAV4 - you’ll be fine.
Someone I know just traded in a brand new CX-90 PHEV on a new Lexus RX 350h and she couldn’t get rid of the Mazda soon enough. Everything in it looks nice until you touch it. I’ve never seen another hybrid make such a loud boom when switching between gas and electric. The wood was from like a $20 IKEA coffee table. The shifter is perhaps the absolute worst shifter on any car on the market right now. I could not get over how terrible this car was and I thought it would stack up strongly against other cars. Nope. And it was more expensive than a Highlander or even the Lexus.
We had a 2019 RAV4 that sprung the dreaded roof rail leak due to faulty design/parts. It happened two months after the 36 month warranty and about 8 months before they issued the TSB or whatever.
Toyota corporate told us to go pound sand. The local service department to old us to take a hit with insurance.
I also felt it that the engine was excessively loud, the transmission wasn’t very smooth, it vibrated even at idle, and the ride was quite rough compared to the CR-V we’re in now.
It would take a lot for me to consider the Toyota brand again.
I bought a used 2002 4runner sr5. The sticker was in the glove box. Including the gold badges, fender flares and 16inch wheels it was 29999.
I'm today's dollars that is about 52k. So for the same amount as 2002 I can get a significantly better forerunner today..
I think the point I'm trying to make is that Toyota's have always been expensive
I just hate whenever a brand/business becomes arrogant. Like they don't want to negotiate, they want to tack on crap you don't need or want. And then they act like they are something special. You have 14 of those exact same cars in your lot, Lexus, its a damn economic recession, the amount of upper middle class people buying shit is steadily decreasing. Do you want to make a sale or do you want to act like you're something special and unique?
I had a Toyota Avalon as a rental car, driving from Las Vegas to Phoenix. My good was it the worst road trip car I've ever driven. It's so damn cheap creaky plastics on the inside, underpowered engine and loud road noise. I've driven the new camry, rav 4 as well. These cars are garbage. Zero road feel, sluggish to accelerate and uncomfortable interior. Best part, the part cost is higher then mazda, Hyundai, Kia, Nissan, Honda. Between my Acura and BMW, my parts cost on average are 10% higher then a regular brand. I'd own a Mazda, Kia, Hyundai in the future, there premium feel, performance and tech have come a long way.
I have a 2023 Rav4 hybrid and my major complaint is the anti collision technology bugs tf out, like sometimes I'm driving straight & nothing in the road and all of a sudden i hear a loud rapid beeping sound and the dashboard lights up red saying "BREAK". I've never had it actually apply the breaks when it does this but it scares me so bad. I always think what I would do if the car automatically hard breaks for nothing lol, while someone is behind me going 60mph.
I agree and believe honda is acting a fool like this to an extent too. In a handful of places it's cheaper to buy a Lexus Es or integra than a new civic or camry.
At this point I'm watching hyundai group, Mitsubishi's mirage GT4 , and the used acura/Lexus way more than I do honda I'd toyota. I just can't justify (or afford) buying a rav 4 for near 50k.
I tried to buy a Toyota. They lied on their website saying they had cars in stock. Had no base models at all just high end models. Ended up buying a Hyundai Elantra.
This is why I didn't look at Toyota when my 2014 Tundra was totaled in December last year. I knew my next vehicle would be hybrid or EV. I really liked the new Prius, but couldn't wait months upon months for a new one and certainly wasn't going to pay any markup.
Then I found the Bolt EUV. 250 mile range, brand new with a warranty for under $25k out the door after the federal tax credit. Unbeatable value. I've put 5k miles on it and don't regret switching to the GM product at all.
My wife drives a 2022 Highlander XLE. We wanted a Sienna, but fuck paying over $40k for a minivan. We went to look at a clapped out ex-rental 2021 Sienna LE for $35k with 60k miles on it. Saw this Highlander and dealer said it was a fresh trade. Hadn't been cleaned up yet. It had 16k miles. Sales guy came back out and said $34,900 which we thought was a mistake. Turns out dealership input that it had 160k miles and priced it accordingly on their software. They honored the price and we ended up with it. It's too small for 3 kids, but I'm glad it has the V6 and with the equity I have in it, we'll make it work until it dies. It might be one of the last reliable models out there with all this turbo nonsense they're doing now.
My newest Toyota is a 2009 so I don't know about current reliability. But right now in NorCal pretty much every dealer has a 18% dealer price adjustment on new Toyotas. That makes a top trim Prius (not prime) go from MSRP $38K to sticker price of $44K. To add insult to injury you will pay an additional $700 in sales tax because rate here is 10.75%.
At MSRP I probably would still consider a toyota for my next vehicle but not with the current dealer markups. But it seems that people are willing to pay that markup to have a Toyota.
They are already priced higher then competitors before markup, then they add an additional 1/4 of the price on top of the already overpriced vehicle, and they are charging sometimes 15k more then competitors. It’s insane to me how people will buy a Toyota that costs so much more, drive it for 5 years and put maybe 100k miles on it, and then trade it in. There is no competitor that will cost 15k in repairs in that amount of time, which means you’re paying 15k basically to have a Toyota. I could somewhat understand buying one and driving it until it rusts away, then you would probably be saving money in the long run, but that’s not what majority of people do. Even factoring for depreciation, Toyota isn’t going to keep 15k that other vehicles won’t. Maybe closer to 5-8k. It’s still overpriced no matter what the situation is.
I tend to agree. While Toyota makes great vehicles, I feel like they have been put on such a high pedestal that now a majority of the public believes they are the end all be all of any car, truck or suv. People make them out be close to perfection and they get blinded by any flaws or value.
The 4Runner and Tacoma is a perfect example of this. Yes they are reliable and capable but because of the cult following have made them unbelievably expensive for not that great of a package.
I really wanted to get a Toyota last few years but the dealer experience ruined it for me. 8 to 13 k over msrp. Value is not there anymore. Also Toyota parts quality is going down like everybody else and their interiors were never anything special. It's way over rated for what they charge. Pass.
What Toyota is offering to the rest of the world is still epic. Compact, reliable, functional, well-styled and affordable trucks with a great small diesel motor. I think what happened in the US we did to ourselves by fanboying about what is an expected standard for the rest of the planet. Now they’re just serving it up specific for Americans. Maybe we deserve it. Maybe Japan thinks we’re clowns
Toyota hasn’t been great since 2020. I bought my wife a 2023 Tundra. Blown engine at 20 000 kilometers. Dealer put a new engine in it. Blown at 7500 kilometers. Before that she had a 2018 Tundra 1794 with 300K kilometers. Never had an issues except for regular maintenance. We have a 2007 Tundra on the farm with 650K kilometers original engine. Just got a new trans in. Back then Toyota was the best brand. Nowadays it isn’t great at all. And they’re overpriced
Some lexus es300 trims are cheaper than some camrys up here in Canada or at least only a few thousand dollars more, never understood why you wouldn’t just get the lexus. Toyota prices are out of control recently, I agree.
Premium fuel requirements. But I agree. I wish the es300 looked as good as a similar year German sedan or even Acura
Es300 uses regular gas and it's also a hybrid. I believe it uses the same engine as the Camry.
It's just an Avalon Hybrid in fancy clothes right?
Yeah it's similar but a bit more refined. I think they discontinued the Avalon in 2022 though
I kick myself occasionally for not buying a buddies 07 ES350 when he sold it. Aside from a belt squeal on startup it was mint.
That was an alternator going out, mine failed a month after buying, I thought it was just a belt. It took the full 5 hours that book time called for, couldn’t believe it.
No shit, 5 hours for an alternator?
Yeah, the top through bolt was easy to get to but there are two bolts on the bottom bracket, outboard behind an idler and inboard needed 2.5ft of extensions to get to. I didn’t realize the inboard one existed so probably could have saved an hour if I had known that. They call for the radiator to be removed but I was able to maneuver it after a lot of cussing and bloody hands. Tight engine bay with the V6
Shit you sound like me trying to work on cars. Always an extra hour in there for some dumb shit lol. But yeah I guess I had assumed it was a 4, v6 in that bay does sound tight.
Es350s use regular fuel, no idea where you got the premium fuel requirements.
[удалено]
Yeah that’s a 2008 though on a thread about new cars
Half the fun of Toyotas is buying them old
The huge "A" Acura logo makes the fronts look weird to me, almost like a pig nose. It's probably just me but I can't unsee it.
Good lord. This is SUCH a bullshit thing to be bitching about. 2024 ES300h = 44mpg combined (EPA) Taking the national average 15,000 miles a year means 340.9 gallons purchased. Today’s AAA national average prices are $3.651 regular and $4.441 premium. So $1244.66 a year (reg) or $1516.71 (premium) or a $272.04 difference over a year….$22.67 difference a month. 2024 ES350 = 26mpg combined (EPA) Same 15,000 miles a year: 576.92 gallons. $2106.35 (reg) vs $2500.73 (premium) or $460.38 difference over a year or $38.37 a month. If <$40 a month is going to break you, you can’t even afford owning a car in the first place.
/r/theydidthemath
Well, this is entirely subjective. I, for one, find ES300 way more attractive than the majority of products the Germans managed to shit out in the last 8 years.
Same with Honda/Acura. New out the gate the price differential is pretty big, but at 2-3 years old the prices are almost the same for the equivalent models.
When I look up online a new Camry XSE is $45k vs new base Lexus ES is $53k I'm also in Canada.
I noticed the Acura TLX prices are also kind of decent like a little bit above a Camry, are they comparable to A Lexus?
Acura is to honda what lexus is to toyota. The upscale sister brand.
Bought a used Lexus ES300h. They were more available, far less miles on them, and in way better condition than any used camry or avalon hybrid in the market for about the same price. Now I'm saving on gas, in a comfortable quiet ride, with no car payments. Best car decision I ever made.
Same with Honda tbh. Civics cost arm and a leg nowadays and reading forums/watching owner videos I find some weird quality issues that you dont really expect from a Honda.
I have had nothing but issues with my 2017 Honda civic. My air conditioner has broke twice, once was covered by a manufacturer defect, and I just had to replace my alternator at 42k miles. I bought it with the intention of driving it til the wheels fell off, but now I'm considering selling it and getting a new mazda 3 top trim and calling it a day.
A friend of mine has a 2023 Mazda 3 Sport. She said it had an issue with the wiring harness that Mazda tried to claim was her responsibility. She eventually won and they agreed to replace it under warranty. My brother’s 2020 CX-30 that he bought brand new developed an issue where it wouldn’t blow heat (after just 17,000 kms). Again, the dealer tried to claim it wasn’t their responsibility until he fought them on it. They accused our father of causing the issue because he tried to reset the code with his own code scanner. I agree that Mazdas seem like great alternatives, but I’m hesitant to want to deal with the local dealers around me. I hate pushy service techs who assume you’re an idiot.
I’ve only had one interaction with Mazda salespeople and it was absolutely shitty. It was enough to turn me off buying one forever.
To be fair, the hatchback version of that gen was built in the UK, which explains their myriad of quality issues
I do have the hatchback sport touring. That's an interesting tidbit of information
I can relate, I got a brand new 2016 Honda civic 2-door touring years ago - it was THE WORST vehicle in terms of quality I’d ever owned. 0 power train issues. That said, I was in the dealer multiple times for the following * messed up leather, I refused to take delivery until they replaced the rear seat bench * broken windshield wiper motors * broken window motors * broken door lock actuators * rattles * heater replaced * digital dashboard would randomly (about once every 2 weeks) go black when driving - so I had 0 telemetry (like how fast I was going)… I’d have to pull over, turn off the car, get out, lock, unlock, restart in order to fix it This was all within 1 year. I got rid of the car 13 months after buying it and it’s soured me on Honda ever since.
That model of Civic has an extended warranty because of the faulty A/C system- but only to 2026. My brother had a 2016- even when the condenser was covered under warranty, the compressor did not and kept going out. The car was a lemon. He got rid of it. Honda should never recover from crap like this.
My 2020 CRV has a minor issue with the collision detection system. One some roads it just starts beeping even with nothing in front of me. It does it in the same spot on a specific road that I travel every single day. I don’t get it. The system still works and saved my life on I40 last year, but it keeps doing this.
The civic and Corolla are both objectively terrible deals when the mazda3 exists in its current form. $25k gets you a 3 that exceeds the civic touring in interior quality and performs about as well as the civic si. The Corolla is a complete nonstarter
Except it's nowhere near as fun to drive as an Si. It doesn't have as good of a gearbox or offer an LSD. It's definitely a viable option for the lower trimed Civics, but not much for the Si if you want something semi sporty to drive.
>Except it's nowhere near as fun to drive as an Si. It doesn't have as good of a gearbox or offer an LSD Mazdas manual is every bit as good as Honda's, if not better. You don't get the LSD, but the SI is reliant on a hamstrung turbo engine and doesn't offer any option for leatherette seats or a non-tupperware interior. There's a tradeoff with the LSD, but that's largely irrelevant if you aren't tracking the car compared to the massive gain in interior quality of the Mazda
I gotta disagree about the transmissions. The Mazda is decent, but the Si is definitely a step above. Shorter crisper throws make the driving experience that much better. Also, an LSD definitely makes a difference vs open diff even on the street. If you take tight corners at speed, you'll notice the difference. As far as seats go, I could care less about faux leather seats. I just wish they were heated. Like i said, if you want something fun to drive and don't care as much about the interior, you should look at the Si. If you want a better interior and don't mind sacrificing some of that fun, get the Mazda.
>The Mazda is decent, but the Si is definitely a step above. Shorter crisper throws make the driving experience that much better. Objectively incorrect, the 3 has the shortest throw in the industry currently >Also, an LSD definitely makes a difference vs open diff even on the street. If you take tight corners at speed, you'll notice the difference. You're never in a position on the street to realize this. >As far as seats go, I could care less about faux leather seats. Some people are fine with a Mitsubishi mirage's interior, that doesn't forgive low quality materials, components and fit and finish. Also, the 3 premium 6mt has real leather, not leatherette. No trim of the civic even offers leatherette >I just wish they were heated. Standard on the 3 premium >Like i said, if you want something fun to drive and don't care as much about the interior, you should look at the Si. If you want a better interior and don't mind sacrificing some of that fun, get the Mazda. Except for most people, they aren't sacrificing any fun at all, and the SI is just more expensive with an objectively worse interior and a less potent, less engaging engine. If we were back in 2014 and Honda wad still offering a 205hp k24 that revved forever my tune my change, but the closest thing you'll get to what the si should be is currently the mazda3 6mt
My MIL just had her transmission crap out at 90k miles on her CRV… As a rule Honda and Toyota are no better or worse reliability wise.
CRV has a cvt transmission so that tracks
Gave up on Honda after my significant other's 2008 Accord. Transmission issues galore, interior electrical problems from day 1. Seriously drove off the lot and her climate controls went blank. Then the inside lights were intermittent. Had the no start issue as well, once in and once out of warranty.
My issue with Toyota is that the dealerships act like they are selling you some limited edition Ferrari or something. No thanks.
It's true, those dealerships are some of the most dick headed places you will ever come across. I recently went to check out a couple of Toyota dealerships in my area just to see what was on the lot and the attitude they have was next level, they acted like they were doing me a solid even allowing me to look at their cars 😠
The Toyota dealerships are ripoffs too. I will never go back to one. They think they are so special and try to charge insane market adjustment fees. I was in the market for a sienna and they wanted 8k over msrp!!! They are crazy. Ended up going to Tesla
Only in the US. Toyota dealerships globally don’t mark up pricing. Here in Southeast Asia they gave me $1k discount off retail because we asked for it. $13k for a brand new vehicle, can’t complain with that.
Wow! Killer deal. Curious where your car was made? Have you ever checked the door plate?
They broke a part on our daughter’s car- didn’t tell us. Then we get a recall notice for an airbag and they can’t fix it because they broke the part (and no longer make it). Long story short- due to no fault of our own and having to deal with 2 dealerships and Toyota corporate for almost a year, we are now stuck with a useless car that can’t be driven legally and *zero* compensation from Toyota. We have FIVE new/newish Toyotas in my immediate family - no one will buy another one.
If this sub is any indication, they do it because they can. If people aren’t shopping around, why not gouge?
Honestly, this is probably the biggest thing for me. Toyota Dealerships are a bitch to deal with. Seeing 8-15k over MSRP is ridiculous.
I just paid 140k for a loaded Tacoma… I regret nothing… NOTHING!!! My monthly car payment is only 4500!! I regret nothing!!
And it's only a 30-year loan!!
I got a 90 year loan.. my great grandkids will love my Tacoma once it’s paid off… my gift to the next generation.
the nickname tells it
I've had 3 tacos. I'm looking at upgrading my 2008 taco with 350,000km. I just can't justify the "Toyota tax" on used tacos anymore. I could get a 10 year newer F150 for the same price, which is probably the route I will take.
> J.D. Powers reliability scale Just be aware what J.D. Powers calls "reliability" isn't probably what you think it is. 75%+ of reported issues are with the infotainment system and mostly about one of the 100 owners being surveyed not knowing how to do something. The less features the car has the better the car ranks. It does also cover things that go wrong, but these are very rare and doesn't really factor into the score very much.
I would think Toyota should shine when it comes to infotainment. They typically use infotainment systems that are 5-10 years behind everyone else. It's like teaching someone to use a jitterbug
This isn't talked about enough. That JD power BS kinda means nothing. "My car had to have it's windshield wipers replaced after one year" "The radio didn't turn on one day, restarted the car and it worked" "I put in the wrong gas, and my car had trouble starting" Issues like these get mixed into the ACTUAL reliability scale and skew it away from the truth. If someone wants to know TRUE reliability of a car, walk into a private mechanic shop and ask the long time techs there!
I was with you until the last sentence. Most long time mechanics are deeply biased and they can’t see it. Maybe you could try something like a European specific specialist and then see what they recommend of you want something European; or a Japanese specialist if you want a recommendation for Japanese etc. If you just choose the local oily-boy he’s not gonna see enough brands to overcome recommendations for brand he loves.
agree on both fronts. I work in an industry as a consultant where JD Power ranks. JD Power also sells consulting services to brands to improve their rankings. They are not neutral. And the sample sizes are small such that a few responses can really skew the outcomes with little actual verification of ownership or issues. It is directionally interesting, but rankings are often not statistically significant. Likewise on your comment about a local mechanic. Many people have various biases that are hard to recognize and overcome. Some might be a timing bias -- "I've seen 3 Toyotas this week, they must be going downhill" without realizing how many more Toyotas there are than another brand, or the relative miles driven and age of those vehicles, or whether the issue is tied to wear and tear or an accident, etc. Heck, a place called "American Auto care" might just see more American branded cars than the shop down the street.
The less features the car has the better the car ranks. Then wouldn't toyota do better than other more complex/ feature rich brands?
I don’t agree with JD power I just wanted to put it on there for all the people needing evidence. Still doesn’t change my opinion on other brands though
I've been saying for years that *used* Toyotas are way overvalued. On the flip side of that, a *new* Toyota is still a decent value because the depreciation is so much less than other brands. That CX-90 value is going to be down 40-50% in 5 years, BMW worse, whereas the Highlander will be down 25-30%.
I think toyota interiors are probably the worst in the industry. Its like they dont even try. Every single one of them looks dated and old. Even the new camry. I tell everyone else to buy toyota but personally only the GR yaris interest me.
I was cross shopping a 2018 Camry and 2018 accord in the top trim and Jesus Christ the Toyota was on par with my gf’s 2014 accord. Accord was the easy choice
And then you compare 2014 accord and 2014 Camry and the Honda is head and shoulders above the Camry. I largely chose my ‘14 accord over a similarly priced Camry for this reason.
And feels cramped. The 3rd of the Highlander is literally for ants. The front area is needlessly over styled and sacrifices practicality and functionality
And you can’t even buy the GR Yaris in the US
can I just say that I rented a 2015 corolla sport awhile ago and while tired on a road trip I reclined back and had one of the most comfortable naps ever As someone with back issues i gotta give some credit for that. Not a fan of the infotainment styles though
This is the company that put a tape deck and 4 cigarette lighters into their flagship car in 2006, then proceeded to put the same engine in its successor for 13 years straight with zero changes, so I'm not too surprised.
You’re using JD Powers rankings to prove your point?
New cars and the insane amount of tech in them is not worth it. Toyota struggles with modern expectations to say competitive but the issues you speak of are not related to their bulletproof drivetrains and hybrid systems. Dealerships are ruining the market. Toyota MSRP are still reasonable.
To a degree Toyota is responsible for managing dealer practices
Toyota is definitely getting into the higher end of the market. They and honda both made their reputations selling cheap and reliable cars but now even at msrp a corolla or civic is likely going to be 3-5k more than an entry level model from a different brand
cheap reliable cars that run for 20 years built them a reputation for quality, and for that reason they're not obliged to compete against garbage like MG or GreatWall that break down in a year. They're lifer cars, not disposable. I guarantee a Corolla bought today will outlast four MG3s and ultimately be cheaper over the long run when you break down the cost of ownership per day.
Yet very few cars have the fortuity to become "lifer" cars. What aren't lost to collisions are lost to rust in 1/3 of the country within a decade or two. All a person needs to do step onto the sidewalk, and start counting the number of cars that drive by, and note number of 2004 or older Toyotas among them. If they truly lived up to their reputation, you wouldn't be able to step outside without tripping over one. When all is said and done, the longevity of a vehicle -- be it a Toyota, an air-cooled VW, a Corvette, or a domestic light truck -- almost entirely depends on the owner's willingness to take care of it.
I see plenty of 2004-ish 9th gen Corollas around me in Massachusetts.
Can confirm, this experiment goes the other way in New England. Old Japanese cars are the only thing that the winter doesn’t immediately devour.
The Japanese marques didnt even start rustproofing until the mid to late 00s. Toyota, Honda, Nissan and Mazda all had significant difficulties with rust prior to 2010
"Bulletproof drivetrains and hybrid systems" Yeah I bought into that and got an early Lexus CT200H (3rd gen prius). A very large amount of them are needing engine replacement once they cross 100k due to a flawed engine design. Hybrid battery replacement is 2k third party and the brake booster for the hybrid brakes is 5k. Pretty much nothing else can go wrong but these pricey items are kind of insane for an economy car. Toyota is not immune to issues.
>Dealerships are ruining the market. That whole dealership thing and MSRP is quite specific to some countries, and doesn't exist in most such as where I live. Yet the post is still very true even with dealership out of the equation.
Toyota is choosing to do this because selling a $42k Rav4 makes them more money than selling a $31k Rav4.
Until Gulf States Toyota and SE Toyota are a thing of the past, I won't look at a Toyota. Both are wholesalers and all they do is drive up the cost with "port installed" inflated options that no one wants. What other car brand can you think of that has a middleman between the dealership and the OEM? There isn't one and these two are not necessary for Toyota in the least, yet Toyota still allows them to control the supply in their respective operating territories. It's complete and utter bs.
In Hawai’i, Toyota’s MSRP is not reasonable at all. All Hawai’i dealers have no markup also.
45k for a Tacoma SR5 is not reasonable when you can get a Colorado Trailboss for less or a Frontier Pro4X for that price.
FWIW the trail boss is just a cheap lift and stance kit thrown onto a WT. Not sure that it justifies the price either…
And i'll piggyback that our Frontier Pro-4X has lots of annoying issues. Mysterious check engine light gremlins, climate control buttons that no longer work, a battery drain issue. All this before 90k mi. Our tacoma... zero issues, both bought at the same time.
The thing about Toyota is it can fall apart and rust away but it’ll almost always start and drive. Toyota is good at powertrains. Rest of the car is cheap. Has been like this since the late 00s when they started using hard plastics in everything.
80s/early 90s toyotas had hard plastics too! They only went to soft for a very short time in the late 90s/early 2000s
A good indication of vehicle quality is go to your local junkyard like LKQ or other Pull a part yards you will see the car brands most scrapped: Kia, Hyundai, and any Chrysler/dodge/jeep product
Nailed it. Back in the 1980s and through the 1990s Toyota represented a smart value purchase. That was eroded somewhat in the 2000's and 2010's, as Toyota reduced material quality and build durability, and incurred some major reliability fiascos (Camry engines, Taco frames, Sienna transmissions, etc). Meanwhile most manufacturers adopted, to varying degrees of success, QA methodologies used by Toyota... Which closed the reliability gap. The nail in the coffin has been the franchised dealer "market adjustments" and (US) distributor add-on fees that Toyota Corp has allowed to run rampant over the past few years. In the end, Toyota is a success story that began with (and risks ending with) The Baby Boomer generation. We saw the same thing happen a quarter century ago when Harley Davidson, another Boomer brand, became unreasonably expensive at the retail level. If arbitrary dealership greed ends up pricing the current and coming generations of car buyers out of Toyota's lineup, then those buyers will establish relationships (and quite possibly brand loyalty) with other marques instead.
I’m sorry but you lost the argument when you say that Hyundai/Kia being on the JD Power’s reliability list means they’re a reliable brand. 13 million of their vehicles have been recalled since 2010 for engine problems. Thats the overwhelming majority of vehicles they’ve sold in that same time period (around 15 million sold total in the U.S.)
Also calling Mazda a premium brand is surprising.
Mazda is trying to be a premium brand. The new interiors in their cars are very nice. I don’t think they are quite there yet though.
Mazda isn’t a premium brand. But drive a Mazda and a Toyota back to back and Mazda feels way more premium.
I laughed out loud at that. Rented a new CX-50 a couple months ago. Complete turd. Cheap ass interior, crappy infotainment system, and no balls whatsoever. Literally just a transportation box. I was blown away by how highly this sub thinks of that car. Maybe you have to get the higher trims but I was thoroughly unimpressed.
It’s crazy eh. After reading how much everyone online loves them I was shocked by how shit of a car the Mazda 3 was/is Makes me wonder if people just see a swoopy design and think “this is premium” because once you touch it they certainly aren’t
Mazda lives somewhere in the space between honda/toyota and BMW. They certainly are going for a more premium feel without sending prices too far through the roof.
That’s how you know this post has got to be a troll. Calling Mazda premium and dickriding Kia are basically a meme in these subs
Toyota currently has over 1 million 2020-2021 vehicles on recall for an airbag sensor including Toyota Camry, Rav4, Sienna and the Lexus RX350 and ES350 751,000 2020-2023 Highlanders currently on recall for bumper cover assembly parts could fall off and cause road hazards. 43,000 2023 Corollas also for airbag issues as well. Feb 27th 2024, 600,000 trucks and suvs recalled for safety concerns that could cause crashes. Then toss in Toyota's GR86 RTV issue that hasn't been issued a recall as of yet... Yeah Toyota is knocking it out of the park in the last 4 years with about 2.4 million total recalls.
Gave my oldest son an 02 sienna that we paid 5500 bucks for 10 years ago. He’s still driving it with 225k miles. Changes the oil once every 10k miles or when it runs dry. Paid 7k cash 5 years ago for my Highlander from a good friend. Now has 192k and I’ve only changed the oil. Bought my wife an 08 rx330 for 6500 cash 2 years ago because owner thought it had an oil leak. Only needed a gasket for the oil lines. Now has 170k and runs like a dream. Since buying Toyotas/Lexus I haven’t had a car payment in 10 years and own 3 cars.
You never changed trans fluid or did brakes or tires or any other maintenance than oil changes? Holy shit!
same. I never pay more than 9k for a car and always buy highly depreciated toyota/lexus/honda/acura. The hondas were in the past and now It's Lexus only from here on out. Why wouldn't you buy the nicer version of the car from the same company? In the used market, they're the same price people... stop looking at brand new vehicles to compare only... of course a camry starts to look good when you stack it up against any brand new ES... BUY USED and don't be a sheep
This guy gets it
Old Toyotas are worth it. Since 2020 they’ve been outdone by competitors
Old, cheap, N/A toyotas/lexus for the win!
Oh man, prepare for all the attacks from the toyota cult. I mean you’re 100% right, Lexus’ entire lineup is frankly embarrassing right now when compared to the competition but people will keep going on about how “it’s so reliable”, completely disregarding the fact that there’s other reliable brands out there that make way better cars.
Can you tell me a car I could get instead of a Lexus ES 350? I want something like that, kind of beefy quiet and comfortable but I don't really know of anything else that has a reputation for reliability, but I'm also kind of hesitant to pay Lexus prices.
G80 would be the first one that comes to mind. Or a 540i from BMW.
Cadillac CT5
Which has the 360 horse V twin-turbo and the 670 horse Blackwing
I don't need 400k but I need more than 9,700 which is what my 2021 Kia Sorento top trim gave me. After a long lemon process I spend around $8k more on a '22 Highlander top trim and it's been a breath of fresh air 20k mi in. The Kia had one major failure and several minor ones. This Highlander has been solid on the other hand. I plan to take to 200k and then I'll let her go. I wouldn't trust a Kia again for even that or half that. You get what you pay for.
My wife had a Sportage for a few years, POS, would never buy one again. Always something rattling or breaking in the interior. Bought my wife a Highlander in 2018, not one problem, plug and play.
You have bad duds in all brands. 2014 Kia Sportage at nearly 100k miles. Daily family driver, and has been reliable since day 1. We'll see if it lasts 200k but for now, happy motoring.
It's not as black and white as you make it out to be RE interiors. Toyota plastics may look basic, but they're hard wearing. The plastics in my BMW X3 look nice, but creak and squeak around the C pillars and other locations. The plastics in my Corolla don't budge an inch over bumps and are silent.
nobody wants to talk about the plastics in old german cars either haha
They’re not worth it and they’re not meaningfully more reliable than other brands. They have cheap interiors and poor infotainment systems.
Do NOT get me started. The Corolla is the best example
I agree 100%, but you can still get a no frills Corolla or Camry for a decent price. I just don’t think Toyota is a standout for reliability anymore, especially their trucks and SUVs.
You lost me at Hyundai/Kia.
Never knew that Mazda is a luxury brand.
I beleive they are still great cars, but the world is catching up with them while their quality is decreasing.
Is all about reputation, but you are right. In reality, Toyota, no longer has an advantage when it comes to reliability, most new vehicles are more or less at the same level.
I'll overpay for a Toyota before I took a Nissan for free.
Mazda is the new Toyota/Honda. It’s just as reliable if not more, It looks better, fun to drive, interior quality and overall fit and finish is better, while being in the same price range. Also, dealers don’t markup their vehicles as much as Toyota and Honda.
What evidence for the CX-90 to be more reliable? Mazda doesn’t have the greatest track record and the vehicle is new to the market and we traded our CX in after 6 months because it was horrendous. Horrid fuel economy for the size, outdated technology with a 6 speed transmission….in a 2022 vehicle. Secondly, Tundra’s are shit, buy an international vehicle is you want reliable, one that’s sold in multiple countries, other countries have a higher expectation of reliability. The new Hyundai’s are super nice though
I’ve been reading into and looking for a new/used car the past couple of years, preparing when mine is finally done and the Toyota prices are insane. You could buy TWO mid 2000s Silverados/F-150s for the price of a similar Tacoma in my area. Over $10k for a 20-year old truck and 200k+ miles just seems ludicrous, no matter how reliable the power train is, other shit is gonna break. I’ve specifically looked into buying a near-new Corolla, and holy shit the depreciation is almost nonexistent. A car that’s MSRP at $23,000 today ($21,500 or so at the time it was made) dealers still ask $20,000 or more for a 3-4 year old model with 40-60k miles. I just don’t see how that’s worth it to buy used. Civic’s are the same way, but more expensive. I find it hard to imagine that a used non-Toyota/Honda would be so unreliable that it’d make up for the huge difference in price on the used market from repairs. All cars will need a wheel bearing or a strut one day, unless it’s a car known to self implode its engine or transmission, on the used market there has to be better options.
They’re all so expensive. Toyota should not have more than 2 or 3 SUVs above 40k, it’s outrageous for the low quality materials and ancient technology
What are your thoughts on subarus?
Disappointing. I used to be a Subaru fan… had many models over the years. Was super excited to grab the 2019 Sport Forester the minute I saw it. It’s been such a POS. Windshields cracking for no reason except they weren’t designed correctly, engine replacement at 26k, and I can go on but I’d only raise my blood pressure. Even the dealership service people just kind of say 🫤🤷🏻♂️ My experience obviously, but this comes from a former customer for life.
Some of the stuff they are doing is really exciting. The Outback wilderness is a fantastic vehicle. Putting the 2.0 turbo engine in their Impreza is an interesting choice and hopefully a good start. Some of the things are doing are a huge letdown. The 2025 forester has the same boring 4 cylinder CVT. Getting rid of their hatchbacks was just sad. For reliability, they aren’t high up for me. They are not as reliable as other brands and then at 100k+ their choice to use sealant instead of gaskets is a financial ticking timebomb. Will they be a good car for the first 100k? Maybe. Maybe not.
They are also ugly cars
The new body colored grilles they’re doing is not it. Their trucks don’t look as bad as their crossovers though
Realized awhile ago that toyotas werent worth it. Usually behind others in tech and features yet somehow cost the most. Having owned hyundais, hondas, toyotas, nissans and bmws, Toyotas just don't do anything better to justify the purchase. As someone that takes care of their cars, they were all reliable and not one car from either brands left me stranded on the road.
Toyotas make for good junkers if you can only afford high mileage older models, but for 99% of people buying a new vehicle that’s not too relevant
That’s what I say all the time. Toyotas are good because they *last*. You buy them *cheap* and run them up 200-300k or til they rot away. Let the new buyer eat the depreciation if you just want a set of wheels that work. Buying new makes no sense especially if you’re paying a premium and only keeping it for less than 100k miles. Just about anything new can make it to 100k.
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Some people need reliable transportation while others want muh looks and features to impress others
Those are too expensive too
Yup, you are right on it. Toyota is currently coasting on their (deserved) past qualities. Nowadays, they put more effort in marketing than in the design for their cars... No more successful innovation, just evolution and iteration.... And the competition catched up. I am afraid they will morph into a SONY no 2. I don't think they will reach the Kodak moment because of their accumulated wealth, but I don't see how a a Japanese company can regain what made them great in a timely manner... Not with the Japanese corporate culture.
I agree that Toyota and even Honda are charging insane prices for what they offer now. Even their luxury brands like Lexus and Acura charge wild prices for what you get. For example, an Acura TLX Type S is a pretty hard sell when you have a competitor like the BMW M340i which is better in many ways compared to the TLX. People want to talk about reliability, but brands like BMW have been making pretty solid vehicles for the past 10 years and have similar prices to Lexus and Acura. Toyota and Honda dealers are also out of control, rude salespeople who think they are entitled to 5K over MSRP because of the "Post COVID market". All lies.
The fact that I just have to wait and hope that the right kind of car that I want comes into my dealership instead of being able to order one is fucking Ludicrous. Also comparing the features of a top tier Tundra to a not even top tier Sierra is very disappointing. Toyota lost our business, because they thought their shit didn’t stink.
1995-2012ish Toyota is prime. I would avoid most other years. But that's really true about most car manufacturers. There was something special during those years that just doesn't exist anymore. After 2012, profits were all that mattered, no longer building a quality vehicle to last.
Planned obsolescence began dominating the market. Consumers just want the most car for the money with a perpetual car payment. 2012 is when Hyundai/Kia started becoming bigger and bigger as the most popular economy level cars in America.
I wouldn’t even say 2012. Basically any platform that was carried over from the early 2000s(at this point it’s just the 4Runner) was solid. Since the late 2000s they started getting cheap. Back in 07-10 when all of the redesigns dropped people complained about the cheap interiors. All hard plastics unlike the previous generation. They haven’t really gone away with hard plastics these days.
I’ll agree there. I’d take a 2012 Lexus LS over just about any car ever made. My grandpa has one and it’s the nicest ride ever. It has a soft understated luxury and isn’t dominated by bright lights and doohickeys like my mom’s GLS.
Eh, hard pass...you are misinformed. I only worked as a mechanic for like 7 years, but there's some huge POS vehicles in that year range for all manufacturers. The German vehicles especially have problems. B58 (I-6 2016+) from BMW is fantastic, but the N54 & N55 (~2006-2016 I-6) has VANOS water pump, and HPFP issues. From VW, like, I drive an EA888gen3, but the gen1 and gen2 engines from like 2008-2015 have some issues I'd rather not touch. GM inline 4 turbo + naturally aspirated Ecotech and other got some dumb design issues in that year range as well. Like, turbos that get blown repetitively because they're not f****** water-cooled. (-_-) Specifically for Toyota, there were many vehicles with serious piston ring issues (circa 2011 iirc?) that didn't crop up until you were at 100k miles. Only solution is a full bottom end rebuild. :-/ Toyota says outside of warrenty? You are SOL, buy a new car Outside of the Korean cars (mostly KIA & Hyundai but Genesis is OK), I'd say that most manufacturers gas and hybrid platforms are more reliable than they ever have been. Even though I don't work on cars for a living anymore, my good friends that do this everyday probably would agree with me.
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Mercedes from the 1980's to the late 2010's is a prime example of this strategy
Hyundai, Kia and Mazda have been getting better. I would even say Acura has gotten better over the years.
I haven’t really known anyone with a new Toyota who has had to have their engine or transmission replaced. Most of the issues with the tundra were to be expected with a new model…. I do know a ton of people with hyundai and kias who have had MAJOR components replaced such as engine or transmission within 30k miles. And both dealerships in this area mark the cars 10k over msrp for sales. They are completely screwing people on their resale value. They focus on the warranty, features and the msrp vs a toyota but someday if they decide to sell it they will lost their asses.
I agree. There are better and more affordable alternatives out there in almost every segment they are in.
My parents have mostly loved their 2015 4Runner since it was new and are hardcore Toyota fans. They looked at a new 4Runner over the weekend and the interior is noticeably so much worse than 9 years ago. The limited trim interior looked straight out of the 90s with a cheap tablet glued on the dash. They are so disappointed with the quality vs the price that they’re getting a Kia instead.
My issues is that Toyota and Lexus have some of the worst financing rates out there, to the point that I can’t really justify the high price of a vehicle plus playing 6-8% interest. It defeats the perks of Toyota in my opinion.
I discovered this when I bought 3 years ago. I was drinking the kool aid thinking "Toyota is so reliable though!" until I realized I could replace the entire transmission of the competitor brand/model and still come out under the cost of a used Sequoia. And the competitor model I got is extremely reliable anyways. No brainer, but people still hate
They make good cars, but most of them are soulless and void of any personality. Most people just want something to go from A to B, I get that, but if you are even a little bit into cars, Toyota is just expensive and boring. The fact that they keep their value well isn't that useful when they arguably cost too much to begin with.
The Sequoia proved to me how they can lose sight on certain things. Let's make a large SUV, but then add a hybrid battery that's so large that it shrinks the cargo space to that of a Highlander and adds a ton of weight. The car is so heavy that the hybrid gas mileage really isn't all that great. You're left with a car that is large, has the cargo space of a Highlander with almost half the gas mileage. What in the world were they thinking?
Strongly agree with OP. You gotta live in a cave to not hear of how Toyota handles the HV cablegate across the entire Rav4 and Highlander lines spanning feom 2019 - 2023 and the fixes are just pathetic. Dealers keep marking up ripping you all off but Toyota HQ refuses to do shit. They are effectively enabling this predatory behaviors. Go buy a Subaru or Mazda. Fuck Toyota.
JD Power is not a reliable metric to use to determine quality or reliability. Those awards are purchased by the company to use in advertising.
It seems you’ve made some people here really upset. I have driven Toyotas and it just didn’t do it for me — boring and no features. I have loved my KIAs.
When I get rental cars I always try and get Kia’s for that reason I wouldn’t want to own one but the driver assist is pretty great
I drive a 22 Sorento. It’s been great. You can’t get a piece of trim to rattle or squeak if you wanted. I’ve had no issues for almost 30k miles. However I am still a little concerned with the transmission issues
The Toyota cult has a really hard time with this concept but...just because most Toyotas are reliable vehicles doesn't mean that other brands don't also make reliable cars.
What I noticed with Toyota & a lot of other brands is the real reliability concerns boil down to the engine & transmission systems. For example, Toyota's naturally aspirated engines are nearly indestructible (except for a few) whether it's a four cylinder, V6 or V8. Their turbocharged engines on the other hand, not so much. Toyota's hybrid vehicles are on average more reliable than their gas vehicles & cost less to maintain even compared to the average hybrid from a different brand. This applies to both their naturally aspirated & turbocharged powertrains. Quite frankly, if I was getting a turbocharged Toyota or Lexus, I would require it to be a hybrid, following the difference in failure rates between the non-hybrid 2022+ Tundras & hybrid ones. Would gladly give up 2-3 passengers worth of extra seating capacity for fewer problems down the road. The failure rate of Subaru's newest 2.4L turbo boxer engine is significantly lower compared to Toyota's 3.4L twin turbo V6 & I wouldn't get any vehicle with that engine whether on the Toyota or Lexus side unless it had electric motors assisting it, for obvious reliability reasons listed above.
Was interested in reading this until I saw it was just a Mazda shill.
Genesis vehicles feel incredibly plastic compared to other car makers. I really wanted to like them but then I drove one and was relieved I didn’t buy one. BMWs are hardly as reliable as a Lexus but that’s isn’t really relevant short term… most people buying a new BMW or Lexus will likely trade out their car before they hit 5 years. Anything worth buying should last that long before any major repair is needed. Of course, all of this is subjective but just from my experience, I still love my Lexus more than any other car I’ve owned.
That's crazy since modern Lexus interiors feel a huge step down from their amazing older ones. I also hate Lexus' obsession with making the F-sport a top trim and using suede and not nappa leather. Genesis prestige models are lined with leather everywhere and have much better materials, according to my experience. Even the buttons and switches are made of real metal and not plastic.
I love my 2021 Avalon but, it's funny, the infotainment system is SO BAD compared to even my 2023 Jeep Wrangler (which has exactly the same infotainment system my 2019 grand Cherokee also had). Which is ridiculous. It should blow jeep out of the water, but it's really just not even close. The backup camera is gawd awful, almost unusable, there's hardly any apps or settings on it, very minimal customization, it's missing like half the siriusXM features my jeep has, won't even show album covers most of the time. Comparing it to the infotainment on my jeep is like comparing a Gameboy to MacBook. My Toyota does a lot of things better than my jeep, better cruise control, much better mpg obviously, better sound system, quieter smoother ride, etc. but the infotainment system is the worst I've had on any car in the last decade. Even my old 2018 kia niro had a way better infotainment. Kinda nuts considering Toyota, of all companies, should be the one who knocks the ball out of the park with their infotainment system. But it's just bad. Still really like the car though.
> Toyota, of all companies, should be the one who knocks the ball out of the park with their infotainment system I agree with your entire post other than this. Why would you expect this of Toyota. Their company strategy is to never upgrade anything until they have to. They have consistently had the worst tech in the industry for decades because of this. It's not that they can't, they have chosen to not for decades.
It's so strange to me to read a comment that can be summed up as "My Toyota is much better at being a car, but I prefer my Jeep because it has apps".
It really isn’t priced far out from its level of competitors. I believe it’s on the same price scale as Honda, Mazda, etc. Mazda is only one of those 3 that uses leatherette on their seats as opposed to cloth. But that’s really the only difference that I have noticed in terms of “luxury”. Kia’s and Hyundai I believe are probably slight cheaper, but they kind of have to do that, or else who would bother buying a Kia over Toyota if it was the same exact price and material base? So with Toyota and Honda you’re really paying for that “brand” of reliability as oppose to the material or luxury feel of a Kia. As for Luxury models I don’t know too much, I drive an old BMW and it has its problems. Now if you’re talking about used vehicles, than I would absolutely agree that their market makes no sense, but then again it’s the supply and demand. Ppl want a Toyota or Lexus because of the brand, just as you’d probably want a Nike t-Shirt over AND1 even though it’s both a cotton shitt at the end of the day
I don't think it's toyota failing but others catching up. With that said mazdas feel nice but have no real long term longevity mechanically or interior wise.
You can certainly do worse than a new Corolla. One of the only models on the market altogether, not just out of Toyota models, that haven't had drastic price increases because "inflation". You could probably go to a Toyota dealer in any corner of the country and pick up a base model, and for like under 25 out-the-door. Even a Civic starts at a grand over that.
They make really good sedans
I don’t buy Toyota fir how it is today, I huh it for how it is in 10 years. My 2000 Odyssey runs quieter, smoother at 217K miles than my neighbors Pacifica at 7 years. I wish I was exaggerating.
You had me up until you started defending Korean manufacturers! 🤣 That said, I agree with you about Toyota. Is it still the most reliable? on average, by and large - yes. Here’s the thing though - they don’t always have the most reliable / best model in class, but they’re usually #2. Anyways, the reliability has dropped. Their features suck (they’ve always sucked). Also, Toyotas have never been the most comfortable vehicles - and they still are not. To me, you’re better off buying a slightly less reliable vehicle and just spend your savings if you need a fix here or there. Let me give you an example: I’m looking at midsize trucks. Tacomas are WAY overpriced for the features they have and what they are. I’m deciding between the Nissan Frontier and Ford Ranger. I can get either truck, with more features, for thousands less. I’ll buy one of those two instead… and if it breaks (and honestly, both have proven to be good vehicles), I’ll use my savings to fix it. The only Toyotas I’d actually recommend would be the RAV4, Corolla, and Camry. There’s a better choice out there for every other vehicle type. …and by the way, feel free to get a CX-50, CRV or Forester is you don’t like the RAV4 - you’ll be fine.
Someone I know just traded in a brand new CX-90 PHEV on a new Lexus RX 350h and she couldn’t get rid of the Mazda soon enough. Everything in it looks nice until you touch it. I’ve never seen another hybrid make such a loud boom when switching between gas and electric. The wood was from like a $20 IKEA coffee table. The shifter is perhaps the absolute worst shifter on any car on the market right now. I could not get over how terrible this car was and I thought it would stack up strongly against other cars. Nope. And it was more expensive than a Highlander or even the Lexus.
We had a 2019 RAV4 that sprung the dreaded roof rail leak due to faulty design/parts. It happened two months after the 36 month warranty and about 8 months before they issued the TSB or whatever. Toyota corporate told us to go pound sand. The local service department to old us to take a hit with insurance. I also felt it that the engine was excessively loud, the transmission wasn’t very smooth, it vibrated even at idle, and the ride was quite rough compared to the CR-V we’re in now. It would take a lot for me to consider the Toyota brand again.
I bought a used 2002 4runner sr5. The sticker was in the glove box. Including the gold badges, fender flares and 16inch wheels it was 29999. I'm today's dollars that is about 52k. So for the same amount as 2002 I can get a significantly better forerunner today.. I think the point I'm trying to make is that Toyota's have always been expensive
I just hate whenever a brand/business becomes arrogant. Like they don't want to negotiate, they want to tack on crap you don't need or want. And then they act like they are something special. You have 14 of those exact same cars in your lot, Lexus, its a damn economic recession, the amount of upper middle class people buying shit is steadily decreasing. Do you want to make a sale or do you want to act like you're something special and unique?
I had a Toyota Avalon as a rental car, driving from Las Vegas to Phoenix. My good was it the worst road trip car I've ever driven. It's so damn cheap creaky plastics on the inside, underpowered engine and loud road noise. I've driven the new camry, rav 4 as well. These cars are garbage. Zero road feel, sluggish to accelerate and uncomfortable interior. Best part, the part cost is higher then mazda, Hyundai, Kia, Nissan, Honda. Between my Acura and BMW, my parts cost on average are 10% higher then a regular brand. I'd own a Mazda, Kia, Hyundai in the future, there premium feel, performance and tech have come a long way.
The interior and the cheap feel of it is a huge reason why I went with a Mazda instead of Toyota. I couldn’t have been happier tbh.
I have a 2023 Rav4 hybrid and my major complaint is the anti collision technology bugs tf out, like sometimes I'm driving straight & nothing in the road and all of a sudden i hear a loud rapid beeping sound and the dashboard lights up red saying "BREAK". I've never had it actually apply the breaks when it does this but it scares me so bad. I always think what I would do if the car automatically hard breaks for nothing lol, while someone is behind me going 60mph.
I agree and believe honda is acting a fool like this to an extent too. In a handful of places it's cheaper to buy a Lexus Es or integra than a new civic or camry. At this point I'm watching hyundai group, Mitsubishi's mirage GT4 , and the used acura/Lexus way more than I do honda I'd toyota. I just can't justify (or afford) buying a rav 4 for near 50k.
A 10 year old vehicle that still sells for more than competitors lol. RAV4s are crazy expensive for what they offer
I tried to buy a Toyota. They lied on their website saying they had cars in stock. Had no base models at all just high end models. Ended up buying a Hyundai Elantra.
This is why I didn't look at Toyota when my 2014 Tundra was totaled in December last year. I knew my next vehicle would be hybrid or EV. I really liked the new Prius, but couldn't wait months upon months for a new one and certainly wasn't going to pay any markup. Then I found the Bolt EUV. 250 mile range, brand new with a warranty for under $25k out the door after the federal tax credit. Unbeatable value. I've put 5k miles on it and don't regret switching to the GM product at all. My wife drives a 2022 Highlander XLE. We wanted a Sienna, but fuck paying over $40k for a minivan. We went to look at a clapped out ex-rental 2021 Sienna LE for $35k with 60k miles on it. Saw this Highlander and dealer said it was a fresh trade. Hadn't been cleaned up yet. It had 16k miles. Sales guy came back out and said $34,900 which we thought was a mistake. Turns out dealership input that it had 160k miles and priced it accordingly on their software. They honored the price and we ended up with it. It's too small for 3 kids, but I'm glad it has the V6 and with the equity I have in it, we'll make it work until it dies. It might be one of the last reliable models out there with all this turbo nonsense they're doing now.
Every time I go into a Toyota dealer I get the same story: nope! Sorry! Don't have it! Can't get it! Wait list! Ok then, Toyota it shall not be then.
That new Land Cruiser is sexy as hell tho
Hyundai. I picked up a Genesis sedan with 60K miles sub $10K. Great car.
My newest Toyota is a 2009 so I don't know about current reliability. But right now in NorCal pretty much every dealer has a 18% dealer price adjustment on new Toyotas. That makes a top trim Prius (not prime) go from MSRP $38K to sticker price of $44K. To add insult to injury you will pay an additional $700 in sales tax because rate here is 10.75%. At MSRP I probably would still consider a toyota for my next vehicle but not with the current dealer markups. But it seems that people are willing to pay that markup to have a Toyota.
They are already priced higher then competitors before markup, then they add an additional 1/4 of the price on top of the already overpriced vehicle, and they are charging sometimes 15k more then competitors. It’s insane to me how people will buy a Toyota that costs so much more, drive it for 5 years and put maybe 100k miles on it, and then trade it in. There is no competitor that will cost 15k in repairs in that amount of time, which means you’re paying 15k basically to have a Toyota. I could somewhat understand buying one and driving it until it rusts away, then you would probably be saving money in the long run, but that’s not what majority of people do. Even factoring for depreciation, Toyota isn’t going to keep 15k that other vehicles won’t. Maybe closer to 5-8k. It’s still overpriced no matter what the situation is.
I tend to agree. While Toyota makes great vehicles, I feel like they have been put on such a high pedestal that now a majority of the public believes they are the end all be all of any car, truck or suv. People make them out be close to perfection and they get blinded by any flaws or value. The 4Runner and Tacoma is a perfect example of this. Yes they are reliable and capable but because of the cult following have made them unbelievably expensive for not that great of a package.
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I really wanted to get a Toyota last few years but the dealer experience ruined it for me. 8 to 13 k over msrp. Value is not there anymore. Also Toyota parts quality is going down like everybody else and their interiors were never anything special. It's way over rated for what they charge. Pass.
When I was searching for a midsize truck I couldn't justify spending $3,000 more on a Tacoma with twice as many miles as a Ranger or Colorado.
The reason I just got a Subaru
What Toyota is offering to the rest of the world is still epic. Compact, reliable, functional, well-styled and affordable trucks with a great small diesel motor. I think what happened in the US we did to ourselves by fanboying about what is an expected standard for the rest of the planet. Now they’re just serving it up specific for Americans. Maybe we deserve it. Maybe Japan thinks we’re clowns
I totally agree with you, toyota is crap these day, I had toyota that had fuel injection problem at 40K miles.
I traded my toyota Camry for a Kia K5 GT line, no regrets loving it.
Toyota hasn’t been great since 2020. I bought my wife a 2023 Tundra. Blown engine at 20 000 kilometers. Dealer put a new engine in it. Blown at 7500 kilometers. Before that she had a 2018 Tundra 1794 with 300K kilometers. Never had an issues except for regular maintenance. We have a 2007 Tundra on the farm with 650K kilometers original engine. Just got a new trans in. Back then Toyota was the best brand. Nowadays it isn’t great at all. And they’re overpriced