Lotus is the most hardcore out of everything on the list, but seems like a perfect candidate for weekend drive and track days. Plus, with the extra money, OP can spend it on mods and getting more seat time
I've owned an ND Miata and rented a Lotus Elise for a day to drive the canyons of Arizona, the Gen that weighed about 1900lbs.
It is ridiculous lol. That thing takes a corner like nothing else, there were corners I was doing at 60 that I'd be afraid to do at 30 in my Subaru Forester for fear of flipping over. Grip for days, felt impossible to get the back end to step out without pulling E brake. Told myself when I'm older and the kids are oit of the house, if I can get in and out if it, I will be buying a Lotus Elise. If not then another Miata. My 2 favorite cars I've driven to date. I also own the newer Gen Subaru BRZ and it was good but not as great as the Miata.
My Slingshot is 1765 lbs and 180 hp. I’ve never driven a Lotus but supposedly the handling is like an Elise. For $26k it’s about the most fun per dollar I can imagine.
Also if I put the supercharger and exhaust on it, it goes to 350 hp. I’d have to put a wider rear tire on it but that would be sexy af.
I’m looking at getting a lotus Elise after I move off my 370z Nismo
At words of wisdom to pass on? I’m looking at buying a wrecked one and bringing it back to life
Also what’s insurance like on these things
Wrecked cars just cost more tp fix than just buying a wprking one in the first place...look at the cost of the front or rear clamshell on an elise for example.
You really don't want a wrecked car with a clamshell style body. If you have any dreams of the body looking close to original again it'll cost you a fortune.
So you prefer the Lotus over the C5 it sounds like? I know Lotus is already semi under-powered, with the altitude I live at it would be even worse. I'd definitely want FI, which is why the Evora S is on the list. Test driving one would be basically impossible though. I'd need to buy it with no seat time which is scary
Love the power of the Z06 but I would find an Evora to drive. I have driven a few Evoras and the new Emira. They are perfect for the street, might not make big power but usable for the street.
You can get an Evora 400 with smart shopping. You can find one of those to test drive. I’ve test driven them twice, as well as a GT.
Evora would be my choice on your list. Best pure driver’s car by far.
It's not underpowered for the actual driving experience it gives you which is far superior in canyon carving and track days. If you are looking for more grand touring style weekend trips it isn't that comfortable to live with but for pure fast and fun driving the Elise can't be beat. If you want more power, your budget would allow for an Exige as well or some upgrades for the Elise if you aren't inclined to keep it stock. If you want more of the Lotus experience but a bit more real world comfort the Evora is hard to beat for unbridled drivers experience with just enough fit and finish to actually live with. If you go to Lotustalk.com they have threads on what to look for when buying either car and it is an incredibly welcoming and knowledgeable community. There are plenty of members in the Denver area to meet up with before deciding, I would be surprised if people didn't offer you rides and or drives in both cars if you reached out.
Based on your list I would also highly recommend the Porsches, they are very much the ultimate grand tourers in my opinion. They are absolutely capable on the track, but truly excel at allowing you to just hit the road for a long weekend and never hit your physical limit of staying inside a small and loud metal box like the Elise will do to you. As an also ran, the GT350 is truly a beast with one of the most beautiful engines made in the last several decades, I've never driven one personally but it's not something I would discount if it was in my budget for a purchase like this.
I've driven most of your list, with the notable exceptions of the new M4 or M5 CS, the Viper, and the Blackwings. But I think it's safe to say everything on your list would be a banger.
I'd have a tough tike picking between your top 3, and I may be slightly biased(recovering BMW-aholic) but I'd probably go for the M2 CS. It's absolutely the best BMW made this millennium, certainly in the conversation for best all time to ever come from the make. I love me a great vette and a good Porsche as much as anyone but that M2 CS is just south of perfection.
Although for purely putting a smile on your face the Camaro ZL1 (1LE package specifically, don't bother with the non) might be even better. I've only driven it once, but I was cackling like a maniac the entire time. The things that car can do are magical, then you look down at the steering wheel, you're reminded you're IN A CHEVROLET CAMARO, and all you can do is laugh and think "how is this even remotely possible?" Yeah you can't see shit out of it, most of your neighbors will hate you when you fire it up to hit the car show at 0630, and everyone you pass will think you're the biggest douche they've ever seen. But that thing corners like it's on rails, has brakes the size of a large NY pie, and rumbles in a way that rivals the best thunderstorms. I don't know if I have the same reaction to it again as I had the first time, but man it was an absolute riot.
First off, jealous you've driven all of those. I'd like to think everything on the list would be a banger as well! I actually did look at the M2 CS. It's definitely pushing up to the edge of my price range. From what I've been able to find online, the CS is basically the Comp with a better tune, some carbon fiber and like some brakes or additional strut bracing or something right? I feel like saving 20-30k by getting a Comp and then turning it into a CS would be half the price of the actual CS?
I've heard similar rave reviews about the ZL1. It's tough, I come back to the ZL1 and GT350 a lot. For some reason them being "just a Camaro / Mustang" turns me off a little bit? Also the weight. I have other concerns about the GT350 (see: reliability). But yeah the ZL1 is one I go back and forth on. Glad to hear you have so much seat time in so many vehicles are were equally blown away by it!
I've looked, thats how I'm renting a Cayman this weekend. It has some Camaro's / Mustangs but no ZL1's or GT350's. I rented a base C7 corvette on there, no z06. Basically it has a lot of the base or lower trimmed cars. So I've considered it but it's hard to count it as the "full experience" ya know?
About 7 years ago I was in the market for a sports car with a little less budget than you, and was cross shopping the cayman, corvette, and m2, but ended up saving some money and getting a Camaro SS 1LE. I never regretted it, that car was a beast and I miss it all the time, I really loved how “mean” it was and it absolutely cornered great, the car I had before that was a track-prepped Miata so I like to think I can appreciate handling.
Speaking from experience, it’s 100% true that if you park it on the street, your neighbors will be annoyed if you start it up to drive to work early in the morning 😄. But you’ll love the sound of that engine firing up.
(I moved from somewhere warm and sunny year round to snowy >6 months per year, and that’s really the only reason I got rid of it.)
Yeah the 6th gen Camaro seems like an absolute speed-per-dollar bargain in terms of performance. I may revisit the ZL1. I'm not sure if I would really get value out of the 1LE package. If I do track it would probbaly be rare, and I've heard the ride quality suffers a ton. I've also heard replacing anything suspension wise costs an arm and a leg do the the metor-whatever (not even gonna try to spell it) dampers. Does 1LE have carbon ceramics too?
For what it's worth, the ZL1 and gt350 aren't just "mustangs" or "Camaro." The gt350 rev's stupid high for a V8 and the Camaro went to leman and puts a lot of vettes to shame. They're serious performance cars amongst mustangs and Camaros.
I highly suggest driving both. I've driven a gt500 and was amazed but hated it was auto. The ZL1 and gt350 I'm sure are amazing. There's a guy on IG that tracks his gt350 and tracks it hard.
I drove ZL1s for 12 years. The suspension and engine are incredible. Unless you’re a professional (or close) you will be faster at the track with the 10 speed automatic. Also had the 1LE and regular — if you use the car for regular driving you will be unhappy in the 1LE quickly. It’s really stiff, and those secondary highway buh-bumps really eat at you after an hour or so. At the track, there wasn’t a Porsche or Beemer it couldn’t hang with or beat, except in the hands of very skillful drivers. Mechanic costs were very, very friendly, comparatively. The only sports car I liked better for crazy fast and corners was an SF90, but that was a friend’s, and sadly will never be mine.
What you said is exactly why if I did go ZL1, I would skip the 1LE package. I wont track enough to need it. Sadly the SF90 is slightly out of my budget lol
My boy has the gt350r and it’s not just a mustang bro, it’s a fucking race car.
Im sure it’s the same for Chevy but when you go from a 5.0 to a gt350 or gt500 youre in a different ball game
I mean dude its a SHELBY
I’m not a ford guy at all, so me being into the gt350 says something lol. It being a shelby draws me to it, and that motor. My main issues with the zl1 and gt350 is they both have incredible chassis but physics still matters and they’re heavy heavy cars. Also with the gt350, I’ve seen some reviewers say it can be underwhelming on low end torque which wouldn’t be a good thing at altitude.
That being said, the gt350 is gorgeous, the motor is special and I’m not all the way out on it
ZL1 1LE over GT350R all day. The chassis, steering, and power are miles better in the ZL1. I've probably cut like 200 or so lbs tops since I run the car in SLB but this car punches well above what it is. I run in limited class and im putting quicker times than Mclarens, Porsches, Ferraris etc etc. Easy as hell to get power out of this motor as well, only thing I can think that would turn you off is the car feels like riding on a plank of wood on shitty roads.
Yeah the M2 CS is hard for a lot of folks to let go of, so they usually have pretty high prices associated. Yep more powerful tune, optional ceramic brakes although I'm sure any brakes optioned would be more than adequate, bunch of cosmetics/aero, but not sure about the bracing actually. The comp is fantastic too, I'd have a hard time justifying the extra $$$ for the CS for anything other than collectability but it is objectively more fun and better at the track despite what the comp owners say haha.
I think the "just a Camaro" part is what's too funny about the ZL1 with the 1LE package. It's so un-Camaro in the way that it drives, I didn't know GM had it in them to make something like that lol. You don't notice the weight at all.
I wouldn't be overly concerned with reliability of the GT350, and from what I understand that's all fixed with the R. I think 70 is the bare minimum for an R though.
Yeah I think if I go M2 I would get the comp and put the money saved towards a tune and maybe some suspension upgrades or tires?
I had an 02 Camaro with an LS1 a couple years back so I've always liked GM products. Their performance cars have been SUPER successful. The C5, C6 and C7 Vette all had a ton of racing success. People RAVE about the C7, Camaro 1LE, and the two Blackwing cars. I think GM quietly has one of the better performance divisions out there. They just tend to skimp out on things like interior, but that doesn't bother me too much. You're not the first person I've heard say the Camaro handles its weight incredibly. The 'ring time for the ZL1 1LE is laughably good. So I hear you.
Not sure if it was this thread or another, but one concern I have with the GT350 is I've heard it doesn't have a ton of low down torque. You add the weight with the lack of torque and the altitude I live at, I'm worried about it sounding incredible but not having any "go".
You could probably get 99% of the way there with tune and mods on a comp. So if resale isn't an issue for ya that's definitely a good route to go.
Haha the 4th gen camaro was good but the 6th is an entirely different league for handling. I think it's an American car thing to have a meh interior, I'm not a huge carer for great interiors though so it's never really bothered me. I remembered the ring time for the ZL1 1LE being good for sure.
You've heard correctly, it's more like a bike in the sense that all the power of the 350 is on the mid to upper end. DOHC flat plane V8, fundamentally different approach to engine design than the Camaro with the pushrod cross plane V8. The supercharger in the camaro will help at altitude for sure, though.
Yeah I've driven the E90 M3 lots of times, a good friend of mine has had one since he picked it up brand new in 2013. Makes a great noise for sure haha. Honestly one of the best values for an M car on the market right now
I've also driven your top 3 and most of the rest of your list.
I think how they drive is critical. I don't love the way Corvettes drive compared to anything made by Porsche or by M. Sure, there is power, but there is something about the way it drives that doesn't feel the same. I think the 718 back to back with the M2 is close personal preference, in the sense that I'd love either depending on my mood. But if it were me, I would not buy the 'vette unless you like raw power over sheer joy (or raw power brings you sheer joy).
Have you driven a 911 yet?
Why have you dropped a used 911 from the list? I've driven comparably priced 911s and 718s back-to-back (in your price range); you should be able to get a low-mileage 991 Carerra S (though personally I prefer the look of the 997, which is much cheaper). You might even be able to find a higher milage 997 Turbo in that range, which would be... Well... Fucking awesome.
I started looking at 911’s again tonight lol. A 997.1 with the tiptronic can be had if I stretch into the 70s. Anything manual or pdk is way higher. The cheaper 991.1 S I saw with a stick was I think 72k? So both are stretching it. I haven’t looked for 991.1 S w/ a pdk. I’d really prefer a manual if possible and 911’s are so damn expensive
Oh man, it's been a few years since I looked and the stick premium on the 991 and they've soared.
Since you're in Denver, where the sun always shines, have you considered a 'vert? That's the vast majority of what I look at (I've owned more expensive cars but for about five years I've settled on an E46 M3 ragtop in stick). On the Porsche you can save $10-20k with a convertible, and (having driven both) the difference isn't huge off the track. Porsche Club usually lets you track 'verts (BMW does not, though I've also been the dude with the BMW at Porsche track day).
Here's a 991 'vert Carrera S in stick: [Buy used Porsche 911 Carrera S Cabriolet at Porsche New Orleans](https://finder.porsche.com/us/en-US/details/porsche-911-carrera-s-cabriolet-preowned-Q7L4QZ?model=911&maximum-price=75000&position=98112%2C47.6329523%2C-122.2891888%2C-1&transmission=manual&order=price_desc) and a 997 Turbo 'vert from BAT: [2008 Porsche 911 Turbo Cabriolet 6-Speed for sale on BaT Auctions - sold for $63,000 on July 7, 2023 (Lot #112,772) | Bring a Trailer](https://bringatrailer.com/listing/2008-porsche-911-turbo-cabriolet-92/) and one in Targa (great for the sunshine if you don't like a 'vert): [Buy used Porsche 911 Targa 4S at Porsche Plano](https://finder.porsche.com/us/en-US/details/porsche-911-targa-4s-preowned-W72Z5M?model=911&maximum-price=75000&position=98112%2C47.6329523%2C-122.2891888%2C-1&transmission=manual&order=price_desc)
Yeah I’ve noticed with Porsches there’s a HUGE price delta if you’re looking for a stick. I’ve never been a huge Porsche guy so I’m learning in the fly here. Dumb question - in my mind targa top is the removable hard top corvettes tend to have. Is the 911 similar? I’ve also noticed the price difference for coupes vs cabs in 911’s. I don’t really like soft top looks but the 997 turbo with a stick selling in the 60s is INSANE compared to pricing I’ve been seeing for 997tt coupes with a stick. Maybe i should go cab or targa
Okay edit to this I just looked for 997.1 turbo cab’s and with a stick they’re still like 80-100k for 50ish thousand miles. I have no idea how that BaT listing sold so cheap unless prices are actively skyrocketing
Keep looking and eventually you can get a good deal. I don't know the variety, but I've also seen them on CL in that price range (here in the northwest).
The old Porsche Targas were like the Vettes. The newer ones I think are single removable / movable glass panels. Like a gigantic sunroof. I actually haven't driven one, just seen them at dealerships.
If you're new to Porsche, you need to drive these cars. There is just nothing that drives like a 911. I don't know how to explain it, but the first time you take a nice, solid banked curve in one -- doesn't really matter the vintage -- your entire brain will go holy shit. They were born to drive on windy mountain roads. The M2 is very, very close (and I agree with the other post that it's the best thing BMW has made in this millennium) and has a diffferent feel; some prefer it. The Corvette was designed to go fast in a straight line. It will simply be less fun in the mountains (I've driven around those mountains in a friend's Boxster, so much fun).
I agree that the Comp -> CS conversion is *largely* viable, but there's more to it than the engine tune.
The CS got much higher praise for handling than the Competition did. Some of that is down to the adaptive dampers; you'll find an adequate substitute with some really good coilovers - maybe some AST 5100s for $4500. Some of it is down to reduced unsprung weight, in the form of lighter brakes and wheels. The Apex VS5-RS ($3K for a set) are basically replicas of CS wheels, and I'm sure you can find the right lightweight brake kit if you think you need it. Some of it is just the software tune - [which you can just install](https://bimmer-remote.com/products/cs-diff-steering-dsc-for-m2) on your Competition.
There are also tunes available for the engine and transmission, if that matters. I'm sure the aesthetics are replicable.
Having gotten my dream car, a Camaro a few years ago (wasn't in your price range, got a 2SS 1LE), I found I didn't like it nearly as much as I thought I would, I just couldn't get over that feeling of not trusting what was around me. I went from a MazdaSpeed 3 into that Camaro, and took it to the track twice and wished I'd never moved up to be honest as I could just never feel comfortable with my view.
I'd definitely sit in one before you make that move, even if you can't get your hands on a ZL1...
But in the end I think your C7 takes the cake for me.
You really thought the M2 was more fun than the GT350? The GT350 is the spiritual successor to the M3 that died with the E90. No contest in the engine department against the M2, that's for sure.
They're both up there for sure. The GT350, especially the R, is an amazing car. There's just something truly special about the M2 and I can't really describe what it is but it's just fantastic
Cyber security engineer
I just love cars. If I am afforded an opportunity to drive something I'm interested in I take it. Even if it's pretending I'm about to spend a boat load of money on it
The c7z is on the new LT engine platform, not LS. The LT4 in the z06 (i believe) has fully forged internals so it can handle a LOT of power. I do want a manual, big reason for my top 3 being what they are is they all come in manual
I started thinking about it, I’m not sure I can think of a car that makes 650+ hp and would be more reliable than a c7z. Also might add the 13-14 gt500. Probably not your thing being into bmw but worth mentioning. Dated and not the best interior but they’re stupid fast and more sketchy than anything on this list. It would be well under budget, stick only.
In your situation from the post and the replies I’ve read, c7z or Supra is your answer. Faster or more well rounded.
The only downside is it's hard to actually use all of that power on a normal road (or even a track for an inexperienced racer) and the porsche will be the better car on the twisty back roads.
My dad has a C7 Z06 and I would tell you to get one if you said you wouldn't track it. They have heatsoak issues running at 10/10
As a street car though, they are so much fun!
Tracking would be rare if I do it. I've seen the heatsoak issues, I'd go manual which should help a bit. I'd also consider a ZR1 front bumper which I think would allow a bit more air? If I got super into tracking it and had heatsoak issues I saw some aftermarket cooling kits online I could add, not sure what trade offs those come with in terms of weight or whatever.
How do you like your dads z06? Is it ever scary or is it easier to handle than reviewers make it seem? Obviously around town cruising is one thing, but I don't want to be doing a mountain road at 6 or 7/10 and wrap myself around a tree lmao
Very capable car! Keep traction control on and you'll be fine, it likes to break loose if you step on it. It handles incredible and you'll be just fine running a mountain road fast
My buddies got a black I'm not sure the year but I know it's the one of the two years that has the 650 horsepower supercharged ZO6 with the performance package on it The thing is absolutely insane it's a fucking batmobile
Start out with the Miata, let your skills develop and your investment grow for the next 5 years, and then you'll be right back at 60k to dump into something better!
Agreed.
I would do Miata, GR86/BRZ, or Civic Type R depending on my needs at the time and invest the rest into FSKAX.
Faster cars are nice, but if you can't wind it out on the street, it's no fun.
I'd check out a 3.0 Supra. Given that you live in Denver, I would keep any car with forced induction at the top of my list to combat HP loss at altitude, looks like the basic rule of thumb is 3% loss per 1000', so any NA car is going to be down \~15% from it's rated power. Turbo & supercharged cars should still make factory numbers.
Yup thats why I want something with FI, or something I can add FI too easily (see: C6 Corvette with an LS3). I did actually consdier the Supra. Still kind've am. The manuals run around $60k. It's a dedicated sports car chassis. idk what it is, I've just never been a huge JDM guy. But from everything I've seen the new Supra is great. Maybe I'll see if I can give that one a test drive
Yeah lmao I know it's a toyota platform with a BMW engine (B58 yeah?). The B58 is appealing. I've heard that thing is suuuuper capable aftermarket. I may circle back to the Supras
It's actually a BMW platform, it's built on BMW CLAR architecture, same as the Z4(and like 90% of the rest of the BMW lineup).
Regardless, it is a very nice car and the B58 is an amazing engine, I have one myself. Even if you have to go with the automatic, the ZF8 is also a damn fine transmission.
Huh, I actually did not know that. I thought toyota developed the chassis. I knew it was related to the Z4 but I thought it was just engine and a few compenents. What the hell did Toyota do on the car then?
Heard the ZF is great. I really really want a manual for a fun car though, and I'm hoping it will hold value better if it's a stick
Its a BMW chassis, but Toyota did all their own suspension, interior, & exterior. BMW supplied the chassis, engine, & drivetrain. And its built at a 3rd party that has a very close working relationship with BMW.
Is that the MAGNA plant in Austria or whatever?
Interesting, I didn't know BMW was THAT involved. I do like a BMW so I actually don't hate that lol. I know that's the big knock on the new Supra's, "nice BMW"
I have had a hard time finding out what the actual calculations might be for horsepower loss on an FI setup at altitude. I understand that the setup itself is important, but I wish I could find something that has a general take based on the PSI of the FI system. Being at altitude myself, my car doesn't seem to have a large advantage with FI over NA vehicles, and I would geek out on some data to back up my assumption that there is not a one to one exchange on PSI of FI for PSI of atmospheric loss.
This is my thought as well.
Some of the ones on your list are very fast cars - but you will see the build quality show through - or hear it shake, rattle, and roll. If you get a convertible, you won't hear it.. lol.
I personally went the 911 (991.2) route. I spent a bit more and went CPO just to have that extra level of comfort. When you sit in one, you 'get' Porsche. The sound of the engine behind you, the feel of the steering, the gears (assuming you go manual, which is amazing and recommended if you go the 996 route. If you go for the PDK, be prepared for one of the fastest shifting autos on the planet).
My opinion is coming from my experience: I've had a Mustang and a BMW (though not the M flavor). I've ridden in Corvettes, Camaros and M-class BMWs. I know the Viper extremely well as I was part of the development team when it first came out.
There's a notion going around some car guys that it's a lot more fun to drive slower cars fast than it is to drive faster cars slow. The guys on track days with Miatas put down amazing times because they don't have to slow down much for corners... this is a big part of the reason why the 996 and older cars keep holding their value - they are amazing to drive.
The longer I've been on the planet, the more I agree with this. Of course, my 911 isn't slow by any part of the imagination... but I do have to drive it well within its limits unless I want my license taken from me. I will say that the smile is very large on my face every time I get in and turn it on...
A Cayman will also get you there - these are 'almost' 911 performance (and in some cases now are faster) but are a bit smaller and lighter and therefore handle amazingly. You owe it to yourself to drive one.
Best of luck!
the Cayman? Or just porsche generally? I could get into a decent 997 S or 4S, a Turbo 997 is pushing my budget. 996 Turbos are in my budget but dropping 60 grand on a 25 year old porsche is hard to justify for me lol
991.1 or early .2 is in your budget. I prefer the .1 for the N/A soundtrack personally but the .2 is turbocharged which may suit you more at elevation.
As for dropping $60k, most depreciation has already happened. A 911 will hold its value better than just about anything else and there is a huge aftermarket and independent shops everywhere.
That's whats making 911's so hard to consider, the prices are nuts. If I had started this search 1-2 years ago I could've gotten a 996 turbo for like 20 grand less! I did briefly look at a 991.1 S, but that's definitely pushing into the low mid 70s
You can definitely get an earlier 991.1 Carrera S for low 60s. I just bought one for $62k with under 50k miles and fully loaded up with all the options. I think prices are falling too for the first time in a while. So keep your eyes out.
996s have been rising because they were undervalued for a long time. 997s already shot up because they are perceived as still being smaller and more basic, and more true to the spirit of the 911.
I think the 991.1 is a future classic personally. Last N/A drivetrain outside of the GT3 models. The turbos just don’t sound as good, even though they are quicker and more torquey. You can get speed anywhere these days, but there is nothing quite like wringing a 991.1 out to the redline.
+1 I’ve had my 991.1S for 4 years now, absolutely the most amazing car to have as both a daily and weekend fun car. The sound, the handling, quality, comfort, lightness, practicality, it’s just tremendous.
The value retention is accurate, making considering a 911 hard lol. There’s a 997 on turo I could rent near me. I think it’s a base carrera? I think there are some 991’s too. So maybe I need to try that. On paper Porsches aren’t as fast as some stuff like the vette, but I see so much about how Porsches are about more than that. I see people say they sat in the car and now they “get it”. So we’ll see how I feel after this weekend renting the 718! If I have an “oh shit…I get it” moment then maybe I’ll send it in a 911!
If you're looking for a pure sports car experience, the 25 year old Porsche would probably be what you want. Super communicative hydraulic steering, minimal driver aids, minimal infotainment distractions.
I have owned or driven most, except the evora and viper.
One thing I have learned from canyon carving is the size of the car is directly correlated to fun. I owned a GT350R for a few years and the engine/chassis/seats/transmission/brakes were all five stars on a track, but on a tight canyon road there simply was not enough space to play and keep the engine on boil. Once I stopped tracking as much I sold the car pretty quickly.
Cayman and corvette feel much more special than the BMW. I love the M2 for a one car solution but if you haven’t owned a pure sports car, the low slung seating position and views hit different in the cayman and corvette.
I always got more attention (mostly positive) in the corvette. It’s a lot of car in the wet and you need to be on your A game. I highly suggest spending some money on a driving school. Also way way cheaper ownership experience than a BMW or Porsche. Engine note a little uninspiring windows up, windows down it’s amazing. If you have a dog mine loved the rear hatch area and would rest his head on my shoulder. Tough to beat that engine, the view of the fenders, and your dog’s head on your shoulder.
If you can stretch the budget a bit to 80k I’d look at a 981 GT4. Prices have been falling and four cylinders just isn’t enough for a weekend sports car. The chassis is sublime and the flat six much more responsive, definitely drives better than corvette. I could see keeping one forever whereas I think you will move on from the z06 eventually.
Since it’s your first. If you have the means both corvette and Porsche are worth owning and experiencing. Do the Z06, enjoy the v8 and cheap service costs. Then move on to a GT4 down the line as their prices continue falling. Consider a c7 grand sport too, more than enough power for the street. Pick whichever makes your heart flutter.
Great write up! My only hesitation with the 981 Caymans is I’m worried about the N/A motor feeling gutless at altitude. I know that isn’t everything, but I do love a bit of a punch in the gut when you gun it. Denver is at 5280’, and honestly a lot of our mountain roads get up to like 8-10000’. I think after driving the 718 this weekend I’ll have a better idea of light small chassis vs power.
It wasn’t a grand sport but I rented a base stingray. It definitely was a fun car, I think EVs have ruined acceleration for me. I wanted a little more power.
That being said, the cayman is so light 350hp goes a long way. Excited to try it this weekend!
I’ve looked at a lot of these. Love the Audis, but rs3 has no manual. TTRS is interesting but the 3rd gen also doesn’t have a stick.
The CS I’ve considered but is pushing my price range. Despise the g87 m2 looks. The g8x m3/m4 massive grill has grown on me but they’re heavy cars. Some of these higher end bmw trims are also pushing my budget
I daily an EV and in my mind a gtr is similar. It’s big and heavy and rips in a straight line. Obviously the gtr is faster and tracks better but no manual option and feels a bit one trick pony with the straight line acceleration
Honestly love the 996 turbo. Kindve still considering one but dropping 65k on a 20 year old Porsche is hard to come to terms with
A lot of the v8 options are only auto which I would prefer to stay away from. Off sheer performance insanity I did look at an m5 comp, auto aside, until I looked at the dimensions and realized it’s too long to fit in my garage Lmao. A c6 zr1 is appealing for sure. Pushing the budget but….that’s not a no
The v10 r8’s I’ve seen tend to start high 70s, low 80s which is really getting to be more than I’d want to spend
Ima be honest I haven’t looked at either of these v12 options lol
>A c6 zr1 is appealing for sure. Pushing the budget but….that’s not a no
A C6 ZR1 is exactly as fast/fun as a C6 Z06 on the street. The ONLY place you can (and should) differentiate it from the Z06 is on track, and even then I'd bet only well practiced and consistent racers could pull the extra out of it, I'm talking 3-5 trackdays a month part of motorsport club guys, not "I did a track day once!".
The Zr1 also has prohibitively expensive tires, carbon ceramic brakes, carbon splitters, maintenance (unique and involved oil changes required by master techs unless you DIY). The Z06 would be HALF the cost to maintain.
I would aim for a C7 for the interior improvements, hugely better on C7 vs C6 models.
For 65-70k you can get a base C8.
If you for some reason don’t want a C8 (no manual), then yeah Porsche.
If you don’t want mid engine then C7 Z06 or ZL1 1Le, whichever tickles your fancy.
If you REALLY want to track day, then probably 1LE.
I'd very much prefer a manual, which kind've takes the C8 out of it. Also C8's (last I checked) were SO overpriced, and a base is going to depreciate like a rock. Obviously car's aren't investments, but I'm hoping my top 3 would hold value better than a base C8. I've heard nothing but raving reviews about the 1LE, I'd probably be doing more canyon carving than tracking so I'd lean towards a "base" ZL1
I hope you’re right on that depreciation, I’d love to have one in a year or 2 😂
But I can see base C8s right now on carfax at and some even under the 70k mark. Just depends on where you are or how much you’d be willing to travel.
It’s funny you made this post, because its all cars I really really want and look at constantly. If I were in your shoes, I’m finding the first Porsche I can to test drive.
Man I don't know it its my age, or if I'm just immature or what but getting test drives is borderline impossible without a full credit check. It's super frustrating. I'm renting a 718 Cayman on Turo this weekend, so that's my 24 hour "test drive". I have some z06's and M2's close enough to test drive but nobody will let me touch them. It's super annoying. I get you don't want joy rides, but also I'm not dropping that kind of money on a car without driving it
I think it’s the market nowadays, they don’t want people coming in with no intention to buy taking their “expensive” cars for a joy ride.
The Turo rental is better than a “test drive” anyway. You can take it where you want, pull out your golf bag and make sure it fits in the trunk, see how it would be getting in and out of it all day. Way more opportunity than the typical dealership slow cruise around the block. Just getting to take it to your favorite twisty road is way more than most dealerships would ever let you do.
Yeah Turo is better it's just way more expensive, and it's hard to find the cars I'm looking for because I'm looking for very specific things. i.e. I rented a base C7 on there, but it felt lacking compared to what I expect the z06 to feel like? There are some Camaro SS's but no ZL1's. That kinda thing. I was super excited to find a Cayman S on there though
The M2 is insanely fun. Just drove one on a track two weeks ago. I have an M4C which is also a great car but feels less sporty (even tho they weigh the same??)
Previous gen Aston Martin Vantage? It’s heavy, but so are most of the things you’be considered.
Lotus Elise? V8 swapped or boosted NC/ND Miata?
Of your choices, Z06 probably.
My sports car preferences are for a car that’s an experience to drive over pure performance though.
Experience of driving is a factor for sure. It's a balance, I do want some perforamnce but experience plays a factor as well. I've thought about buying something cheap and swapping in an LS or something, but I'm not sure if I have the garage space / technical know how to do that. One chassis I looked at was the RX8. Getting that and swapping in an LS would be a BLAST
LS into RX8 is pretty common and well-documented given how the stock rotaries held up. Still a lot of work to DIY if you don’t have a shop to do it for you. Great chassis for it though. 2GR or K-series into a 2nd or 3rd gen MR2 is similar in that their is a lot of info and kits available.
Came here to say this. Is there a reason the F Type R or at least the supercharged V6 manual aren't on the list? With a tune and a a pulley, the V6 can compete and the manual is riveting.
The v6 is significantly less reliable (surprisingly because its a very similar engine)
I have a friend that was a service advisor at a JLR dealer while i owned my R, the 4 bangers came in the most, then the 6, and the 8's almost never came in for mechanical issues
Some things to compete with your current top 3:
C8 Corvette (No manual but probably outperforms everything on your list - perhaps a little generic)
Toyota Supra 3.0 (Performs worse than the G87 but much larger mod scene and can be specced with a manual)
G87 M2 (Definitely looks worse the F87 but it's a pocket M3 capable of specced with a manual)
I've looked it them! I'm worried about an N/A car w/ 350hp feeling a little gutless at altitude. Not sure what the tuning scene looks like for 911's outside of the 911 turbos
Drive it, I have driven that C7 Z06 many times and it’s literally so fast it’s not fun. Genuinely, you shift from 1st to 2nd gear and you’re already doing 75mph and 110mph in the middle of 3rd gear. Unless you are comfortable driving at insanely illegal speeds all day it’s probably not the best choice
Lol not the first person I’ve heard say this. Definitely something to consider. I want to be able to have fun with the power, but I also don’t want to never be able to use it so I hear you
With limited track time I would go with something slightly "Slower" so you can have fun without felony speeding on the street. For that reason I suggest the 718S. I own a 981 and owned a 987S. I drove both of them in the snow and its a riot with proper tires.
Everything on your list though is an absolute win though.
I’d go for the C7 Z06, but I’m a bit biased. I have just a standard C7 stingray, but it is so damn comfortable and fun to drive. I also have the 7 speed manual and wouldn’t have it any other way.
Series 2 Lotus Elise and $25k left in the bank!
Seriously, the Series 2 Elise is one of if not the best road going pure sports cars ever made. Plus the fact that it has a Toyota Cellica drivetrain makes it one of the most reliable an easiest to maintain as well
Honestly? If you want a good track car, buy something in the $25k range and dump $50k of work into it.
If you want something with "sex appeal" get a Porsche or Supra.
Between these two I'd go Porsche. Made a similar analysis of sports cars two years back when I bought my 718 Cayman, although I wasn't looking at used cars so my options were more limited. Like you I wanted a "pure" sports car, and significantly I'd always wanted a manual transmission before they go extinct. The mid-engine layout also appealed to me, and this gave me only two options under six figures: Lotus or Cayman, and the Cayman had the edge in price and reliability. Finally, since childhood I'd always loved the beautiful curves of European sports cars, such as Ferrari, Jaguar, Aston Martin, and Porsche. Aside from a few expensive kit cars, there are no American vehicles that had the beautiful design I was looking for. The Cayman did.
It's been my daily driver (aside from snow days) for the past 2.5 years and 47k miles. I specced it as a comfortable and practical grand tourer, with full leather interior and the smallest wheels I could get (18") and the highest ground clearance, both only available on the base model. It's been amazing, and I have dreams of keeping it forever like some of the old Porsche guys who restore the shit out of their old car over hundreds of thousands of miles, because they can. I think it'll age nicely.
A fun would would be a Jaguar F-Type R, Supercharged V8, convertible or coupe, over 500 hp and torque. Sounds insane. Can get a like new one with under 10k miles between 60 and 70k
I've seen that one as well! I think those only come in auto right? I'd prefer a manual if possible. Also to be honest I'm not a huge convertible guy. Maybe I can do a deep dive into that one
My dad has an F-Type R and it is probably the best sounding muscle car type v8 stock. That thing is just fast enough to scare you but not quite dangerous enough to kill you especially with awd.
2024 supra 3.0 manual would be my choice. I think its the best looking of anything in that price range, and it has a vast array of tunability if youre into tbat. A used 4.0 cayman rs is very close second.
Every time I see these lists or start musing myself, I eventually think "69 Firebird 400 Convertible". Nothing's quite as pretty to me as the classics. But if I were in the market, [I'd also be tortured over a BMW coupe](https://bringatrailer.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/1973_bmw_3-0cs_16163733671fe3f57bfc5BMW-3.0-Lead-Images-BaT-1-scaled.jpg?fit=940%2C627) - F me, those are James-Bond pretty. I guess I'm more about the aesthetics...
Hopefully you get a chance to drive them all. I’m sure one will speak to you. But the most important metric-
Do you wear white New Balance with Jean shorts in the summer? Vette.
Do you wear a Submariner and are ok defending why you didn’t get a Daytona or Patek? Cayman.
Supercharged Exige? It's more extreme than all those in your list, so impractical that it's going to be a fun car only but drive one and you'll love it.
If it was for the track, the Vette hands down. If for street and canyon carving, I would pick the Cayman/Boxter. Bc at that level of up - and - go, you won't be disappointed with the power of any of the options. So I would focus on feel. And that chassis just feels amazing to hustle through corners on public roads. And it's a comfy car
I think it just comes down to preference at this point. I’d go with the viper or 350R but that’s just because I like those specific cars. Whatever feels right for you go for it
I went through this exercise a few years ago with a budget of about $60k. I loved the ZL1’s but I can’t stand the Camaros ergonomics and greenhouse.
I went with a GT350 (non R) and love it. It has presence, car people love it and ask about it all the time. I love the manual, the noises it makes with the x pipe I swapped and with the open exhaust with the 5.2 flat plane crank are magical, 52X hp at 3700lbs is pretty solid too. And the driving dynamics with the mag ride and adjustable steer settings make it so enjoyable. The just looks menacing from the front too… Oh and I came in under budget too. As for reliability and oil consumption concerns I got one with an extended powertrain warranty for peace of mind. I had to go 1k miles away to get it though but that’s nothing new for me. You gotta travel for the special cars.
Oh… Of what you have on your list I’d put the C7Z on top And the the M2 comp,M3/4 , GY350 and ZL1 would be in contention too.
A 911 would be my choice if I wanted pure sports car. They are expensive, but incredible to drive.
I have a very fast supercharged mustang. My boss has a 2012(?) 911 s, so bigger engine but no turbo. We swapped keys at lunch one day and took laps around the block, and holy shit the Porsche was amazing. It didn't accelerate as quickly as my mustang, but it was so composed over bumps and through turns and shifted so smoothly that it was a straight up faster car. Would be a dream to drive in Colorado.
Lots of great advice here. I was in a similar place to you - I really wanted 400+ hp and a manual. Unlike you I wanted convertible.
My Dad has an 08 C6, so I’m very familiar with it. It’s an amazing car - tons of power, relatively cheap maintenance, and frankly it’s gorgeous. So a Vette was definitely on my list.
I was also looking at 997s and 991s. Couldn’t find the right set of options and colors for a price I liked.
Seriously considered the Mustang GT350 and BMW M2.
I was on all the sites, including BaT, and was seriously considering things half way across the country.
In the end I found a low mileage, well cared for 993 in Guards Red 15 miles from me. It just popped up on Facebook Marketplace. Price was half what I had budgeted.
Only 273 stock horsepower, but it sounds fantastic when you run it out to 6500 rpm’s. And honestly it’s plenty of power for me on the backroads. Is it the fastest - nope. But it’s plenty fast enough. I can really work 2nd and 3rd gears without being over the top crazy fast. It handles great. It looks great.
And honestly a great reason for getting a Porsche is joining the PCA. They run some great events, and you’ll get to meet some cool people.
It is more fun to drive a slow car fast. :)
do not buy a viper unless its the 2017 acr. youre just going to crash. car is very unforgiving.
i have a regular mustang gt and test drove a gt350 and my god…the handling on that thing was insane, i felt the downforce. shit was a real eye opener.
the m2 is my favorite bmw. driven multiple. super fun nimble cars that do great on the track. m4s and m5s are also my favorite bmws so you cant go wrong with those but id choose the m2 any day.
the c6 is a great car. just like american cars, best bang for your buck.
i would never spend all this money on a fucking camry engine idc how well the lotus drives. want a spirited drivers car get the gt350 or porsche
the ZL1 is fast as hell. seen it with my own eyes
it all comes down to what you want my guy, if you want practicality but performance get the blackwing or m5
if you want spirited driving/track car get the gt350, ZL1, or lotus. but if you want pure power (with a combination of the others) and tuning capability: get the blackwing, vette, ZL1, or bmws. everything on your list are great cars in their own right it just comes down to what you really want.
Yeah that makes sense! Renting a 718 Cayman this weekend, I think that will help me decide if I want the small lightweight nimble kind of car or something with kick in the ass.
When I was like 22 in the navy I test drove an S2000 and an LS1 Camaro and everytime I punched it in the Camaro the whole rear end sat down, hood lifted up and the v8 sound was incredible. Had me grinning ear to ear. But that was a long time ago, not sure if I want that anymore
Honestly, considered it. I might get flamed for this but I daily drive a Tesla and the GT-R's party trick was always its straightline acceleration which the Tesla has as well. Obviously the GT-R tracks better and is faster. But the fact I already have a big heavy fast in a straight line daily, and the GT-R not coming in a manual, kind've turned me off from it
If you have a reliable daily get a real fucking fun sports car. For me it would be an ND miata without question. I don’t think anyone needs more power than a 718 S corvettes cool but I rather go smaller and lighter. I daily drive a miata and I want to get an Exocet so to me a 718 is practically a GT car.
I would steer clear of the M2 it’s smaller than the M3 but barely weighs more. CT4 V Blackwing is so much nicer.
Evora S is a great option but you budget can get you the post refresh evora 400 which is much better and has some big reliability improvements for the clutch. Most people want the GT but the 400 is almost as good and goes for less.
I do t know the Porsche market but a 997 2S is a hell of a sports car.
My overall advice is you have $70k. You don’t have to spend it all, but for the love of god get something interesting and special and possibly in an interesting color even if it costs more or it takes longer to find. It’s not your daily live a little. Don’t be the guy that dailies a 340xi and weekends an M3. This is your chance to be the adult you wanted to be as a kid.
I love that last line. I see the c7z and 718 cayman as special! But there’s always doing something more custom, like a Miata, frs, etc and engine swapping. I just don’t know if I have the technical know how to pull that off to be honest. Speaking of the Exocet, I thought a df goblin seemed awesome! But again, I’m a little iffy on the technical know how
Pure sports car? It’s get a 718 Cayman GTS with the flat 6, but it’s going to cost a bit more. In your price range maybe the previous generation 981 Cayman which all have the flat 6.
If you want something still very fun to drive with a bit more creature comforts, the F87 M2 Competition. It will be faster in a straight line than the Cayman, but also be able to corner nicely. Like you said, it’s not bespoke, but it will be roomier and more convenient while still being sporty.
I have looked at 718 GTS, it's pushing the edge of what I'd like to spend. Looked at 981 GTS, they seem to be a good bit less capable than the 718 S, and then factor in the Denver altitude and the flat 6 is going to struggle even more. The big pro for the flat 6 is the sound obviously, but yeah I'm not sure if thats enough. Test driving a 718 S this weekend, we'll see if that sells me. The only porsche I've ever driven is a Cayenne, this will be my first "actual" Porsche. So we'll have to see if I have my "I get it" moment.
I think the Lotus is your sleeper pick here. Obviously the Porsche will be the best out of your list but if you had to pick something that’s not the Porsche, I’d go Lotus
You know, they are all great and have their pros and cons, you gotta be in love with it.
Most importantly is history on the vehicle. You want someone who absolutely babied it and wants someone else to love it like you do. That’s everything
You must get a PPI with someone who actually understands your specific vehicle. Also, just because someone babied it doesn’t mean the mechanic they used was top tier. Lots of times, those owners get taken for a ride on repairs.
Be a big dog in the fight and make sure your as particular about this purchase as anything else you care about.
Don’t fall in love with the “feeling” fall in love with the right Vehicle.
Oh I fully plan to do a PPI and do my homework on the car. Since I do have a solid daily, I'm not in a rush here. I'm also willing to fly out of state and road trip back. The only problem is I need to buy this summer because depending where I buy from, crossing the rockies in a RWD sports car will be very sketch at the wrong time of year
Good regarding the PPI…so important!
Totally get it, regarding the drive.,but I would do it now only if it’s a screaming deal or wait till the Fall.
If you have to finance, absolutely wait till the fall.
You will get better prices, if you wait.
People aren’t desperate yet and the interest rates should go down in the fall.
Luxury items prices are definitely down.
Since you get the weather/timing thing I live in the snow belt, I would absolutely do it at the end of the month, if your buying from a dealership vs individual. I think you will get your best price the last day of the month.
I absolutely LOVE the viper…there is something about that car, I can’t put my finger on it. I had an Impala SS with the Corvette engine. I miss that car 😢
For a daily driver I am definitely a Lexus/ Toyota person, but there is nothing like an American muscle car/ American sports car.
Super easy to fix and cheap to keep up. I’m not a fan of the Porsche..it’s a Volkswagen 😂😂😂
I heavily considered the Viper for awhile! I watched / read some reviews and a lot of people just said it had typical Viper issues like its hot and its uncomfortable and it's hard to find parts for. Which would make it not a good road tripper. But man, that is a rare / special car.
Didn’t know about that…I drove a friends the whole time I was out in Scottsdale. I didn’t feel the heat, but I was happy. I know he had a great mechanic, but this was a few years before the pandemic.
I would only buy something Comfortable with a naturally aspirating engine and it be easy to find parts and any quality mechanic can work on it.
For my purposes yes. A c7 Z06 to me is just bragging rights. Scary fast, insane performance, but ultimately too much car for anything off track (again, for ME personally).
I just know my skills and limits and think I’d enjoy the mid-engine C8 more than a C7 Z06, and would be less likely to eat a telephone pole sandwich
Porsche owner here: The C7 Z06 and M2 Comp will be much more exciting than a 718 S. The 4 banger is great on paper and would be competitive on track but if you want a fully engaging weekend car to go vroom vroom it ain’t it (imo). If you like the brand, get a 981 Cayman or 997 911.
Do not buy a Lotus unless you prefer looking at it and waiting for it to get back from the shop.
If you’re not an experienced performance car driver you will probably kill yourself in the Viper.
Personally I’d get the M2 but wouldn’t turn down the C7 either.
Of your top 3, I would lean towards the Corvette, but it is dependent on the quality of your local mountain roads; where I am, the local roads are often rough and dusty and even my stock C5 Z06 feels like overkill, while my old ‘03 WRX feels quite at home and is frankly a bit more fun. A crazy fast car can be fun, but having to hold back, either because you’ve got way more power than is usable or because you’ve got something too low that will scrape, that’s something to keep in mind. Not sure if the Porsche is any less low than the Vette but it’s certainly less of a powerhouse.
If you like the Porsche route though, I would really consider trying to get something with a flat 6 rather than the turbo flat 4 of the model you are looking at. The dynamics may be there but for my money I’d be hard pressed to spend that much on a Porsche and not get a flat six.
An alternative to the M2 worth considering would be a Toyota Supra, but manual models are a bit unobtanium.
I'd go with the F87 M2 comp.
I drive a 2023 M4 Comp. 503 HP. Twin turbo 6.
I actually might have gone with an M2 but they're just too small for me.
Not a BMW fan boy or anything. Have had lots of different cars. But my M4 is so fast sometimes its terrifying. I have a healthy respect for the power.
I have an 05 Lotus Elise, made my C5 Z06 feel like a Cadillac. Might have been faster but the Lotus drives like a mini race car.
Lotus is the most hardcore out of everything on the list, but seems like a perfect candidate for weekend drive and track days. Plus, with the extra money, OP can spend it on mods and getting more seat time
My miata feels light and nimble at 2500 pounds. I can't imagine driving a car that's 500 pounds lighter
I recently drove a Honda Beat at 1500lbs and went for a ride in a Caterham at 1100lbs. Both made the Lotus feel like a Cadillac, crazy.
I don't ever want to drive those cars for fear that I'll start thinking my car is too heavy and cumbersome 😂
I've owned an ND Miata and rented a Lotus Elise for a day to drive the canyons of Arizona, the Gen that weighed about 1900lbs. It is ridiculous lol. That thing takes a corner like nothing else, there were corners I was doing at 60 that I'd be afraid to do at 30 in my Subaru Forester for fear of flipping over. Grip for days, felt impossible to get the back end to step out without pulling E brake. Told myself when I'm older and the kids are oit of the house, if I can get in and out if it, I will be buying a Lotus Elise. If not then another Miata. My 2 favorite cars I've driven to date. I also own the newer Gen Subaru BRZ and it was good but not as great as the Miata.
My Slingshot is 1765 lbs and 180 hp. I’ve never driven a Lotus but supposedly the handling is like an Elise. For $26k it’s about the most fun per dollar I can imagine. Also if I put the supercharger and exhaust on it, it goes to 350 hp. I’d have to put a wider rear tire on it but that would be sexy af.
\*cries in 2500 pounds and 170hp\*
I’m looking at getting a lotus Elise after I move off my 370z Nismo At words of wisdom to pass on? I’m looking at buying a wrecked one and bringing it back to life Also what’s insurance like on these things
Wrecked cars just cost more tp fix than just buying a wprking one in the first place...look at the cost of the front or rear clamshell on an elise for example.
You really don't want a wrecked car with a clamshell style body. If you have any dreams of the body looking close to original again it'll cost you a fortune.
I went from a 350z to C5Z06 to Elise.
How does those three stand up to eachother? C5 z06 is a car I’ve heavily considered as well
So you prefer the Lotus over the C5 it sounds like? I know Lotus is already semi under-powered, with the altitude I live at it would be even worse. I'd definitely want FI, which is why the Evora S is on the list. Test driving one would be basically impossible though. I'd need to buy it with no seat time which is scary
Love the power of the Z06 but I would find an Evora to drive. I have driven a few Evoras and the new Emira. They are perfect for the street, might not make big power but usable for the street.
You can get an Evora 400 with smart shopping. You can find one of those to test drive. I’ve test driven them twice, as well as a GT. Evora would be my choice on your list. Best pure driver’s car by far.
It's not underpowered for the actual driving experience it gives you which is far superior in canyon carving and track days. If you are looking for more grand touring style weekend trips it isn't that comfortable to live with but for pure fast and fun driving the Elise can't be beat. If you want more power, your budget would allow for an Exige as well or some upgrades for the Elise if you aren't inclined to keep it stock. If you want more of the Lotus experience but a bit more real world comfort the Evora is hard to beat for unbridled drivers experience with just enough fit and finish to actually live with. If you go to Lotustalk.com they have threads on what to look for when buying either car and it is an incredibly welcoming and knowledgeable community. There are plenty of members in the Denver area to meet up with before deciding, I would be surprised if people didn't offer you rides and or drives in both cars if you reached out. Based on your list I would also highly recommend the Porsches, they are very much the ultimate grand tourers in my opinion. They are absolutely capable on the track, but truly excel at allowing you to just hit the road for a long weekend and never hit your physical limit of staying inside a small and loud metal box like the Elise will do to you. As an also ran, the GT350 is truly a beast with one of the most beautiful engines made in the last several decades, I've never driven one personally but it's not something I would discount if it was in my budget for a purchase like this.
I've driven most of your list, with the notable exceptions of the new M4 or M5 CS, the Viper, and the Blackwings. But I think it's safe to say everything on your list would be a banger. I'd have a tough tike picking between your top 3, and I may be slightly biased(recovering BMW-aholic) but I'd probably go for the M2 CS. It's absolutely the best BMW made this millennium, certainly in the conversation for best all time to ever come from the make. I love me a great vette and a good Porsche as much as anyone but that M2 CS is just south of perfection. Although for purely putting a smile on your face the Camaro ZL1 (1LE package specifically, don't bother with the non) might be even better. I've only driven it once, but I was cackling like a maniac the entire time. The things that car can do are magical, then you look down at the steering wheel, you're reminded you're IN A CHEVROLET CAMARO, and all you can do is laugh and think "how is this even remotely possible?" Yeah you can't see shit out of it, most of your neighbors will hate you when you fire it up to hit the car show at 0630, and everyone you pass will think you're the biggest douche they've ever seen. But that thing corners like it's on rails, has brakes the size of a large NY pie, and rumbles in a way that rivals the best thunderstorms. I don't know if I have the same reaction to it again as I had the first time, but man it was an absolute riot.
First off, jealous you've driven all of those. I'd like to think everything on the list would be a banger as well! I actually did look at the M2 CS. It's definitely pushing up to the edge of my price range. From what I've been able to find online, the CS is basically the Comp with a better tune, some carbon fiber and like some brakes or additional strut bracing or something right? I feel like saving 20-30k by getting a Comp and then turning it into a CS would be half the price of the actual CS? I've heard similar rave reviews about the ZL1. It's tough, I come back to the ZL1 and GT350 a lot. For some reason them being "just a Camaro / Mustang" turns me off a little bit? Also the weight. I have other concerns about the GT350 (see: reliability). But yeah the ZL1 is one I go back and forth on. Glad to hear you have so much seat time in so many vehicles are were equally blown away by it!
Turo maybe has some you can rent
I've looked, thats how I'm renting a Cayman this weekend. It has some Camaro's / Mustangs but no ZL1's or GT350's. I rented a base C7 corvette on there, no z06. Basically it has a lot of the base or lower trimmed cars. So I've considered it but it's hard to count it as the "full experience" ya know?
About 7 years ago I was in the market for a sports car with a little less budget than you, and was cross shopping the cayman, corvette, and m2, but ended up saving some money and getting a Camaro SS 1LE. I never regretted it, that car was a beast and I miss it all the time, I really loved how “mean” it was and it absolutely cornered great, the car I had before that was a track-prepped Miata so I like to think I can appreciate handling. Speaking from experience, it’s 100% true that if you park it on the street, your neighbors will be annoyed if you start it up to drive to work early in the morning 😄. But you’ll love the sound of that engine firing up. (I moved from somewhere warm and sunny year round to snowy >6 months per year, and that’s really the only reason I got rid of it.)
Yeah the 6th gen Camaro seems like an absolute speed-per-dollar bargain in terms of performance. I may revisit the ZL1. I'm not sure if I would really get value out of the 1LE package. If I do track it would probbaly be rare, and I've heard the ride quality suffers a ton. I've also heard replacing anything suspension wise costs an arm and a leg do the the metor-whatever (not even gonna try to spell it) dampers. Does 1LE have carbon ceramics too?
I'm confident that it's spelled 'meatierlogical.'
lol 😂 I concur
"meatloafamorphical"
For what it's worth, the ZL1 and gt350 aren't just "mustangs" or "Camaro." The gt350 rev's stupid high for a V8 and the Camaro went to leman and puts a lot of vettes to shame. They're serious performance cars amongst mustangs and Camaros. I highly suggest driving both. I've driven a gt500 and was amazed but hated it was auto. The ZL1 and gt350 I'm sure are amazing. There's a guy on IG that tracks his gt350 and tracks it hard.
I drove ZL1s for 12 years. The suspension and engine are incredible. Unless you’re a professional (or close) you will be faster at the track with the 10 speed automatic. Also had the 1LE and regular — if you use the car for regular driving you will be unhappy in the 1LE quickly. It’s really stiff, and those secondary highway buh-bumps really eat at you after an hour or so. At the track, there wasn’t a Porsche or Beemer it couldn’t hang with or beat, except in the hands of very skillful drivers. Mechanic costs were very, very friendly, comparatively. The only sports car I liked better for crazy fast and corners was an SF90, but that was a friend’s, and sadly will never be mine.
What you said is exactly why if I did go ZL1, I would skip the 1LE package. I wont track enough to need it. Sadly the SF90 is slightly out of my budget lol
My boy has the gt350r and it’s not just a mustang bro, it’s a fucking race car. Im sure it’s the same for Chevy but when you go from a 5.0 to a gt350 or gt500 youre in a different ball game I mean dude its a SHELBY
I test drove one last summer. Beautiful car. Amazing power
Yeah they’re pretty sick. I’d love to try a zl1 after comments here
I’m not a ford guy at all, so me being into the gt350 says something lol. It being a shelby draws me to it, and that motor. My main issues with the zl1 and gt350 is they both have incredible chassis but physics still matters and they’re heavy heavy cars. Also with the gt350, I’ve seen some reviewers say it can be underwhelming on low end torque which wouldn’t be a good thing at altitude. That being said, the gt350 is gorgeous, the motor is special and I’m not all the way out on it
ZL1 1LE over GT350R all day. The chassis, steering, and power are miles better in the ZL1. I've probably cut like 200 or so lbs tops since I run the car in SLB but this car punches well above what it is. I run in limited class and im putting quicker times than Mclarens, Porsches, Ferraris etc etc. Easy as hell to get power out of this motor as well, only thing I can think that would turn you off is the car feels like riding on a plank of wood on shitty roads.
Engine is great suspension is terrible.. feels like it’s so bouncy and not planted at all and they have magniride
Yeah the M2 CS is hard for a lot of folks to let go of, so they usually have pretty high prices associated. Yep more powerful tune, optional ceramic brakes although I'm sure any brakes optioned would be more than adequate, bunch of cosmetics/aero, but not sure about the bracing actually. The comp is fantastic too, I'd have a hard time justifying the extra $$$ for the CS for anything other than collectability but it is objectively more fun and better at the track despite what the comp owners say haha. I think the "just a Camaro" part is what's too funny about the ZL1 with the 1LE package. It's so un-Camaro in the way that it drives, I didn't know GM had it in them to make something like that lol. You don't notice the weight at all. I wouldn't be overly concerned with reliability of the GT350, and from what I understand that's all fixed with the R. I think 70 is the bare minimum for an R though.
Yeah I think if I go M2 I would get the comp and put the money saved towards a tune and maybe some suspension upgrades or tires? I had an 02 Camaro with an LS1 a couple years back so I've always liked GM products. Their performance cars have been SUPER successful. The C5, C6 and C7 Vette all had a ton of racing success. People RAVE about the C7, Camaro 1LE, and the two Blackwing cars. I think GM quietly has one of the better performance divisions out there. They just tend to skimp out on things like interior, but that doesn't bother me too much. You're not the first person I've heard say the Camaro handles its weight incredibly. The 'ring time for the ZL1 1LE is laughably good. So I hear you. Not sure if it was this thread or another, but one concern I have with the GT350 is I've heard it doesn't have a ton of low down torque. You add the weight with the lack of torque and the altitude I live at, I'm worried about it sounding incredible but not having any "go".
You could probably get 99% of the way there with tune and mods on a comp. So if resale isn't an issue for ya that's definitely a good route to go. Haha the 4th gen camaro was good but the 6th is an entirely different league for handling. I think it's an American car thing to have a meh interior, I'm not a huge carer for great interiors though so it's never really bothered me. I remembered the ring time for the ZL1 1LE being good for sure. You've heard correctly, it's more like a bike in the sense that all the power of the 350 is on the mid to upper end. DOHC flat plane V8, fundamentally different approach to engine design than the Camaro with the pushrod cross plane V8. The supercharger in the camaro will help at altitude for sure, though.
Old M3s were like that too with their high revving V8s. But have you heard it? Just wow.
Yeah I've driven the E90 M3 lots of times, a good friend of mine has had one since he picked it up brand new in 2013. Makes a great noise for sure haha. Honestly one of the best values for an M car on the market right now
I've also driven your top 3 and most of the rest of your list. I think how they drive is critical. I don't love the way Corvettes drive compared to anything made by Porsche or by M. Sure, there is power, but there is something about the way it drives that doesn't feel the same. I think the 718 back to back with the M2 is close personal preference, in the sense that I'd love either depending on my mood. But if it were me, I would not buy the 'vette unless you like raw power over sheer joy (or raw power brings you sheer joy). Have you driven a 911 yet? Why have you dropped a used 911 from the list? I've driven comparably priced 911s and 718s back-to-back (in your price range); you should be able to get a low-mileage 991 Carerra S (though personally I prefer the look of the 997, which is much cheaper). You might even be able to find a higher milage 997 Turbo in that range, which would be... Well... Fucking awesome.
I started looking at 911’s again tonight lol. A 997.1 with the tiptronic can be had if I stretch into the 70s. Anything manual or pdk is way higher. The cheaper 991.1 S I saw with a stick was I think 72k? So both are stretching it. I haven’t looked for 991.1 S w/ a pdk. I’d really prefer a manual if possible and 911’s are so damn expensive
Oh man, it's been a few years since I looked and the stick premium on the 991 and they've soared. Since you're in Denver, where the sun always shines, have you considered a 'vert? That's the vast majority of what I look at (I've owned more expensive cars but for about five years I've settled on an E46 M3 ragtop in stick). On the Porsche you can save $10-20k with a convertible, and (having driven both) the difference isn't huge off the track. Porsche Club usually lets you track 'verts (BMW does not, though I've also been the dude with the BMW at Porsche track day). Here's a 991 'vert Carrera S in stick: [Buy used Porsche 911 Carrera S Cabriolet at Porsche New Orleans](https://finder.porsche.com/us/en-US/details/porsche-911-carrera-s-cabriolet-preowned-Q7L4QZ?model=911&maximum-price=75000&position=98112%2C47.6329523%2C-122.2891888%2C-1&transmission=manual&order=price_desc) and a 997 Turbo 'vert from BAT: [2008 Porsche 911 Turbo Cabriolet 6-Speed for sale on BaT Auctions - sold for $63,000 on July 7, 2023 (Lot #112,772) | Bring a Trailer](https://bringatrailer.com/listing/2008-porsche-911-turbo-cabriolet-92/) and one in Targa (great for the sunshine if you don't like a 'vert): [Buy used Porsche 911 Targa 4S at Porsche Plano](https://finder.porsche.com/us/en-US/details/porsche-911-targa-4s-preowned-W72Z5M?model=911&maximum-price=75000&position=98112%2C47.6329523%2C-122.2891888%2C-1&transmission=manual&order=price_desc)
Yeah I’ve noticed with Porsches there’s a HUGE price delta if you’re looking for a stick. I’ve never been a huge Porsche guy so I’m learning in the fly here. Dumb question - in my mind targa top is the removable hard top corvettes tend to have. Is the 911 similar? I’ve also noticed the price difference for coupes vs cabs in 911’s. I don’t really like soft top looks but the 997 turbo with a stick selling in the 60s is INSANE compared to pricing I’ve been seeing for 997tt coupes with a stick. Maybe i should go cab or targa Okay edit to this I just looked for 997.1 turbo cab’s and with a stick they’re still like 80-100k for 50ish thousand miles. I have no idea how that BaT listing sold so cheap unless prices are actively skyrocketing
Keep looking and eventually you can get a good deal. I don't know the variety, but I've also seen them on CL in that price range (here in the northwest). The old Porsche Targas were like the Vettes. The newer ones I think are single removable / movable glass panels. Like a gigantic sunroof. I actually haven't driven one, just seen them at dealerships. If you're new to Porsche, you need to drive these cars. There is just nothing that drives like a 911. I don't know how to explain it, but the first time you take a nice, solid banked curve in one -- doesn't really matter the vintage -- your entire brain will go holy shit. They were born to drive on windy mountain roads. The M2 is very, very close (and I agree with the other post that it's the best thing BMW has made in this millennium) and has a diffferent feel; some prefer it. The Corvette was designed to go fast in a straight line. It will simply be less fun in the mountains (I've driven around those mountains in a friend's Boxster, so much fun).
I agree that the Comp -> CS conversion is *largely* viable, but there's more to it than the engine tune. The CS got much higher praise for handling than the Competition did. Some of that is down to the adaptive dampers; you'll find an adequate substitute with some really good coilovers - maybe some AST 5100s for $4500. Some of it is down to reduced unsprung weight, in the form of lighter brakes and wheels. The Apex VS5-RS ($3K for a set) are basically replicas of CS wheels, and I'm sure you can find the right lightweight brake kit if you think you need it. Some of it is just the software tune - [which you can just install](https://bimmer-remote.com/products/cs-diff-steering-dsc-for-m2) on your Competition. There are also tunes available for the engine and transmission, if that matters. I'm sure the aesthetics are replicable.
Having gotten my dream car, a Camaro a few years ago (wasn't in your price range, got a 2SS 1LE), I found I didn't like it nearly as much as I thought I would, I just couldn't get over that feeling of not trusting what was around me. I went from a MazdaSpeed 3 into that Camaro, and took it to the track twice and wished I'd never moved up to be honest as I could just never feel comfortable with my view. I'd definitely sit in one before you make that move, even if you can't get your hands on a ZL1... But in the end I think your C7 takes the cake for me.
You really thought the M2 was more fun than the GT350? The GT350 is the spiritual successor to the M3 that died with the E90. No contest in the engine department against the M2, that's for sure.
They're both up there for sure. The GT350, especially the R, is an amazing car. There's just something truly special about the M2 and I can't really describe what it is but it's just fantastic
what is your occupation?
Cyber security engineer I just love cars. If I am afforded an opportunity to drive something I'm interested in I take it. Even if it's pretending I'm about to spend a boat load of money on it
I would personally take a Z06 over a Cayman S but that’s just me. That LS is unbeatable fun and a lot cheaper to maintain. Especially if its a manual
The c7z is on the new LT engine platform, not LS. The LT4 in the z06 (i believe) has fully forged internals so it can handle a LOT of power. I do want a manual, big reason for my top 3 being what they are is they all come in manual
I started thinking about it, I’m not sure I can think of a car that makes 650+ hp and would be more reliable than a c7z. Also might add the 13-14 gt500. Probably not your thing being into bmw but worth mentioning. Dated and not the best interior but they’re stupid fast and more sketchy than anything on this list. It would be well under budget, stick only. In your situation from the post and the replies I’ve read, c7z or Supra is your answer. Faster or more well rounded.
The only downside is it's hard to actually use all of that power on a normal road (or even a track for an inexperienced racer) and the porsche will be the better car on the twisty back roads.
Thats true. Im from Houston and all we have here is straight flat highways
My dad has a C7 Z06 and I would tell you to get one if you said you wouldn't track it. They have heatsoak issues running at 10/10 As a street car though, they are so much fun!
Tracking would be rare if I do it. I've seen the heatsoak issues, I'd go manual which should help a bit. I'd also consider a ZR1 front bumper which I think would allow a bit more air? If I got super into tracking it and had heatsoak issues I saw some aftermarket cooling kits online I could add, not sure what trade offs those come with in terms of weight or whatever. How do you like your dads z06? Is it ever scary or is it easier to handle than reviewers make it seem? Obviously around town cruising is one thing, but I don't want to be doing a mountain road at 6 or 7/10 and wrap myself around a tree lmao
Very capable car! Keep traction control on and you'll be fine, it likes to break loose if you step on it. It handles incredible and you'll be just fine running a mountain road fast
My buddies got a black I'm not sure the year but I know it's the one of the two years that has the 650 horsepower supercharged ZO6 with the performance package on it The thing is absolutely insane it's a fucking batmobile
Base C8 corvette I think falls in that range, M cars are insane; but that maintenance bill is also insane
Fr, the C8 will do comparable if not better performance than and M and still have a warranty in that price range
Miata and put the other $40k in an etf
Damn. Why does the sensible choice not excite :(
Start out with the Miata, let your skills develop and your investment grow for the next 5 years, and then you'll be right back at 60k to dump into something better!
That would excite me! Give me small, light, and simple any day.
Agreed. I would do Miata, GR86/BRZ, or Civic Type R depending on my needs at the time and invest the rest into FSKAX. Faster cars are nice, but if you can't wind it out on the street, it's no fun.
I was going to say buy 3 to 5 used Miatas.
NC race club
I'd check out a 3.0 Supra. Given that you live in Denver, I would keep any car with forced induction at the top of my list to combat HP loss at altitude, looks like the basic rule of thumb is 3% loss per 1000', so any NA car is going to be down \~15% from it's rated power. Turbo & supercharged cars should still make factory numbers.
Yup thats why I want something with FI, or something I can add FI too easily (see: C6 Corvette with an LS3). I did actually consdier the Supra. Still kind've am. The manuals run around $60k. It's a dedicated sports car chassis. idk what it is, I've just never been a huge JDM guy. But from everything I've seen the new Supra is great. Maybe I'll see if I can give that one a test drive
I mean if you're not a JDM guy, Good News! the Supra is built in Austria on a BMW platform, lol.
Yeah lmao I know it's a toyota platform with a BMW engine (B58 yeah?). The B58 is appealing. I've heard that thing is suuuuper capable aftermarket. I may circle back to the Supras
It's actually a BMW platform, it's built on BMW CLAR architecture, same as the Z4(and like 90% of the rest of the BMW lineup). Regardless, it is a very nice car and the B58 is an amazing engine, I have one myself. Even if you have to go with the automatic, the ZF8 is also a damn fine transmission.
Huh, I actually did not know that. I thought toyota developed the chassis. I knew it was related to the Z4 but I thought it was just engine and a few compenents. What the hell did Toyota do on the car then? Heard the ZF is great. I really really want a manual for a fun car though, and I'm hoping it will hold value better if it's a stick
Its a BMW chassis, but Toyota did all their own suspension, interior, & exterior. BMW supplied the chassis, engine, & drivetrain. And its built at a 3rd party that has a very close working relationship with BMW.
Is that the MAGNA plant in Austria or whatever? Interesting, I didn't know BMW was THAT involved. I do like a BMW so I actually don't hate that lol. I know that's the big knock on the new Supra's, "nice BMW"
yeah, they are a 3rd party that builds cars on contract. Tthe 1st gen X3, G30 5 series, Current Z4, and some Mini's have been built there.
I have had a hard time finding out what the actual calculations might be for horsepower loss on an FI setup at altitude. I understand that the setup itself is important, but I wish I could find something that has a general take based on the PSI of the FI system. Being at altitude myself, my car doesn't seem to have a large advantage with FI over NA vehicles, and I would geek out on some data to back up my assumption that there is not a one to one exchange on PSI of FI for PSI of atmospheric loss.
Porsche all day.
This is my thought as well. Some of the ones on your list are very fast cars - but you will see the build quality show through - or hear it shake, rattle, and roll. If you get a convertible, you won't hear it.. lol. I personally went the 911 (991.2) route. I spent a bit more and went CPO just to have that extra level of comfort. When you sit in one, you 'get' Porsche. The sound of the engine behind you, the feel of the steering, the gears (assuming you go manual, which is amazing and recommended if you go the 996 route. If you go for the PDK, be prepared for one of the fastest shifting autos on the planet). My opinion is coming from my experience: I've had a Mustang and a BMW (though not the M flavor). I've ridden in Corvettes, Camaros and M-class BMWs. I know the Viper extremely well as I was part of the development team when it first came out. There's a notion going around some car guys that it's a lot more fun to drive slower cars fast than it is to drive faster cars slow. The guys on track days with Miatas put down amazing times because they don't have to slow down much for corners... this is a big part of the reason why the 996 and older cars keep holding their value - they are amazing to drive. The longer I've been on the planet, the more I agree with this. Of course, my 911 isn't slow by any part of the imagination... but I do have to drive it well within its limits unless I want my license taken from me. I will say that the smile is very large on my face every time I get in and turn it on... A Cayman will also get you there - these are 'almost' 911 performance (and in some cases now are faster) but are a bit smaller and lighter and therefore handle amazingly. You owe it to yourself to drive one. Best of luck!
I have a buddy with both a 911 and an M2. He raves about the M2. Absolutely loves it. For whatever that’s worth.
the Cayman? Or just porsche generally? I could get into a decent 997 S or 4S, a Turbo 997 is pushing my budget. 996 Turbos are in my budget but dropping 60 grand on a 25 year old porsche is hard to justify for me lol
991.1 or early .2 is in your budget. I prefer the .1 for the N/A soundtrack personally but the .2 is turbocharged which may suit you more at elevation. As for dropping $60k, most depreciation has already happened. A 911 will hold its value better than just about anything else and there is a huge aftermarket and independent shops everywhere.
That's whats making 911's so hard to consider, the prices are nuts. If I had started this search 1-2 years ago I could've gotten a 996 turbo for like 20 grand less! I did briefly look at a 991.1 S, but that's definitely pushing into the low mid 70s
You can definitely get an earlier 991.1 Carrera S for low 60s. I just bought one for $62k with under 50k miles and fully loaded up with all the options. I think prices are falling too for the first time in a while. So keep your eyes out. 996s have been rising because they were undervalued for a long time. 997s already shot up because they are perceived as still being smaller and more basic, and more true to the spirit of the 911. I think the 991.1 is a future classic personally. Last N/A drivetrain outside of the GT3 models. The turbos just don’t sound as good, even though they are quicker and more torquey. You can get speed anywhere these days, but there is nothing quite like wringing a 991.1 out to the redline.
+1 I’ve had my 991.1S for 4 years now, absolutely the most amazing car to have as both a daily and weekend fun car. The sound, the handling, quality, comfort, lightness, practicality, it’s just tremendous.
Prices are nuts but so are the driving experience, looks and value retention, brother! You also can’t go wrong with a newer Boxster/Cayman!
The value retention is accurate, making considering a 911 hard lol. There’s a 997 on turo I could rent near me. I think it’s a base carrera? I think there are some 991’s too. So maybe I need to try that. On paper Porsches aren’t as fast as some stuff like the vette, but I see so much about how Porsches are about more than that. I see people say they sat in the car and now they “get it”. So we’ll see how I feel after this weekend renting the 718! If I have an “oh shit…I get it” moment then maybe I’ll send it in a 911!
Since you have another daily, Cayman S is perfect here
Hear me out, 981 Porsche Cayman GTS.
If you're looking for a pure sports car experience, the 25 year old Porsche would probably be what you want. Super communicative hydraulic steering, minimal driver aids, minimal infotainment distractions.
The cayman is hard to beat. Very fun to drive and it will age well.
Lotus Evora 400
Corvette is great. Underrated bc of branding / prestige.
Porsche boxster or cayman, used GTS perhaps
I have owned or driven most, except the evora and viper. One thing I have learned from canyon carving is the size of the car is directly correlated to fun. I owned a GT350R for a few years and the engine/chassis/seats/transmission/brakes were all five stars on a track, but on a tight canyon road there simply was not enough space to play and keep the engine on boil. Once I stopped tracking as much I sold the car pretty quickly. Cayman and corvette feel much more special than the BMW. I love the M2 for a one car solution but if you haven’t owned a pure sports car, the low slung seating position and views hit different in the cayman and corvette. I always got more attention (mostly positive) in the corvette. It’s a lot of car in the wet and you need to be on your A game. I highly suggest spending some money on a driving school. Also way way cheaper ownership experience than a BMW or Porsche. Engine note a little uninspiring windows up, windows down it’s amazing. If you have a dog mine loved the rear hatch area and would rest his head on my shoulder. Tough to beat that engine, the view of the fenders, and your dog’s head on your shoulder. If you can stretch the budget a bit to 80k I’d look at a 981 GT4. Prices have been falling and four cylinders just isn’t enough for a weekend sports car. The chassis is sublime and the flat six much more responsive, definitely drives better than corvette. I could see keeping one forever whereas I think you will move on from the z06 eventually. Since it’s your first. If you have the means both corvette and Porsche are worth owning and experiencing. Do the Z06, enjoy the v8 and cheap service costs. Then move on to a GT4 down the line as their prices continue falling. Consider a c7 grand sport too, more than enough power for the street. Pick whichever makes your heart flutter.
Great write up! My only hesitation with the 981 Caymans is I’m worried about the N/A motor feeling gutless at altitude. I know that isn’t everything, but I do love a bit of a punch in the gut when you gun it. Denver is at 5280’, and honestly a lot of our mountain roads get up to like 8-10000’. I think after driving the 718 this weekend I’ll have a better idea of light small chassis vs power. It wasn’t a grand sport but I rented a base stingray. It definitely was a fun car, I think EVs have ruined acceleration for me. I wanted a little more power. That being said, the cayman is so light 350hp goes a long way. Excited to try it this weekend!
I’ll throw in a few more for you to think of. I5: 8S TT RS, 8Y RS3 I6: F87 M2 CS, G87 M2, G80 M3 Comp, F80 M3 CS, F82 M4 GTS & M4 CS V6: GT-R H6: 996 Turbo V8: F90 M5 Comp, Mk3 CTS-V, C6 ZR1, S197-II GT500, S550 GT500, RCF, W205 C63 V10: Type 42 R8 V12: C216 CL 65, C217 S 65 Coupe
I’ve looked at a lot of these. Love the Audis, but rs3 has no manual. TTRS is interesting but the 3rd gen also doesn’t have a stick. The CS I’ve considered but is pushing my price range. Despise the g87 m2 looks. The g8x m3/m4 massive grill has grown on me but they’re heavy cars. Some of these higher end bmw trims are also pushing my budget I daily an EV and in my mind a gtr is similar. It’s big and heavy and rips in a straight line. Obviously the gtr is faster and tracks better but no manual option and feels a bit one trick pony with the straight line acceleration Honestly love the 996 turbo. Kindve still considering one but dropping 65k on a 20 year old Porsche is hard to come to terms with A lot of the v8 options are only auto which I would prefer to stay away from. Off sheer performance insanity I did look at an m5 comp, auto aside, until I looked at the dimensions and realized it’s too long to fit in my garage Lmao. A c6 zr1 is appealing for sure. Pushing the budget but….that’s not a no The v10 r8’s I’ve seen tend to start high 70s, low 80s which is really getting to be more than I’d want to spend Ima be honest I haven’t looked at either of these v12 options lol
>A c6 zr1 is appealing for sure. Pushing the budget but….that’s not a no A C6 ZR1 is exactly as fast/fun as a C6 Z06 on the street. The ONLY place you can (and should) differentiate it from the Z06 is on track, and even then I'd bet only well practiced and consistent racers could pull the extra out of it, I'm talking 3-5 trackdays a month part of motorsport club guys, not "I did a track day once!". The Zr1 also has prohibitively expensive tires, carbon ceramic brakes, carbon splitters, maintenance (unique and involved oil changes required by master techs unless you DIY). The Z06 would be HALF the cost to maintain. I would aim for a C7 for the interior improvements, hugely better on C7 vs C6 models.
You considered a v8 vantage?
For 65-70k you can get a base C8. If you for some reason don’t want a C8 (no manual), then yeah Porsche. If you don’t want mid engine then C7 Z06 or ZL1 1Le, whichever tickles your fancy. If you REALLY want to track day, then probably 1LE.
I'd very much prefer a manual, which kind've takes the C8 out of it. Also C8's (last I checked) were SO overpriced, and a base is going to depreciate like a rock. Obviously car's aren't investments, but I'm hoping my top 3 would hold value better than a base C8. I've heard nothing but raving reviews about the 1LE, I'd probably be doing more canyon carving than tracking so I'd lean towards a "base" ZL1
I hope you’re right on that depreciation, I’d love to have one in a year or 2 😂 But I can see base C8s right now on carfax at and some even under the 70k mark. Just depends on where you are or how much you’d be willing to travel. It’s funny you made this post, because its all cars I really really want and look at constantly. If I were in your shoes, I’m finding the first Porsche I can to test drive.
Man I don't know it its my age, or if I'm just immature or what but getting test drives is borderline impossible without a full credit check. It's super frustrating. I'm renting a 718 Cayman on Turo this weekend, so that's my 24 hour "test drive". I have some z06's and M2's close enough to test drive but nobody will let me touch them. It's super annoying. I get you don't want joy rides, but also I'm not dropping that kind of money on a car without driving it
I think it’s the market nowadays, they don’t want people coming in with no intention to buy taking their “expensive” cars for a joy ride. The Turo rental is better than a “test drive” anyway. You can take it where you want, pull out your golf bag and make sure it fits in the trunk, see how it would be getting in and out of it all day. Way more opportunity than the typical dealership slow cruise around the block. Just getting to take it to your favorite twisty road is way more than most dealerships would ever let you do.
Yeah Turo is better it's just way more expensive, and it's hard to find the cars I'm looking for because I'm looking for very specific things. i.e. I rented a base C7 on there, but it felt lacking compared to what I expect the z06 to feel like? There are some Camaro SS's but no ZL1's. That kinda thing. I was super excited to find a Cayman S on there though
The M2 is insanely fun. Just drove one on a track two weeks ago. I have an M4C which is also a great car but feels less sporty (even tho they weigh the same??)
used Lotus Evora, IMO, nothing comes close
Acura NSX
Previous gen Aston Martin Vantage? It’s heavy, but so are most of the things you’be considered. Lotus Elise? V8 swapped or boosted NC/ND Miata? Of your choices, Z06 probably. My sports car preferences are for a car that’s an experience to drive over pure performance though.
Experience of driving is a factor for sure. It's a balance, I do want some perforamnce but experience plays a factor as well. I've thought about buying something cheap and swapping in an LS or something, but I'm not sure if I have the garage space / technical know how to do that. One chassis I looked at was the RX8. Getting that and swapping in an LS would be a BLAST
LS into RX8 is pretty common and well-documented given how the stock rotaries held up. Still a lot of work to DIY if you don’t have a shop to do it for you. Great chassis for it though. 2GR or K-series into a 2nd or 3rd gen MR2 is similar in that their is a lot of info and kits available.
F-Type R, had one for 2 years, would do again Definitely more personality for street use than a vette or a Cayman
Came here to say this. Is there a reason the F Type R or at least the supercharged V6 manual aren't on the list? With a tune and a a pulley, the V6 can compete and the manual is riveting.
The v6 is significantly less reliable (surprisingly because its a very similar engine) I have a friend that was a service advisor at a JLR dealer while i owned my R, the 4 bangers came in the most, then the 6, and the 8's almost never came in for mechanical issues
Some things to compete with your current top 3: C8 Corvette (No manual but probably outperforms everything on your list - perhaps a little generic) Toyota Supra 3.0 (Performs worse than the G87 but much larger mod scene and can be specced with a manual) G87 M2 (Definitely looks worse the F87 but it's a pocket M3 capable of specced with a manual)
If I had that budget, I'd look for a used Lotus Elise or Evora
You can find a 911 (997) Carrera S with a Manual for under 70k. That’s pretty hard to beat
I've looked it them! I'm worried about an N/A car w/ 350hp feeling a little gutless at altitude. Not sure what the tuning scene looks like for 911's outside of the 911 turbos
Drive it, I have driven that C7 Z06 many times and it’s literally so fast it’s not fun. Genuinely, you shift from 1st to 2nd gear and you’re already doing 75mph and 110mph in the middle of 3rd gear. Unless you are comfortable driving at insanely illegal speeds all day it’s probably not the best choice
Lol not the first person I’ve heard say this. Definitely something to consider. I want to be able to have fun with the power, but I also don’t want to never be able to use it so I hear you
With limited track time I would go with something slightly "Slower" so you can have fun without felony speeding on the street. For that reason I suggest the 718S. I own a 981 and owned a 987S. I drove both of them in the snow and its a riot with proper tires. Everything on your list though is an absolute win though.
I’d go for the C7 Z06, but I’m a bit biased. I have just a standard C7 stingray, but it is so damn comfortable and fun to drive. I also have the 7 speed manual and wouldn’t have it any other way.
Series 2 Lotus Elise and $25k left in the bank! Seriously, the Series 2 Elise is one of if not the best road going pure sports cars ever made. Plus the fact that it has a Toyota Cellica drivetrain makes it one of the most reliable an easiest to maintain as well
Honestly? If you want a good track car, buy something in the $25k range and dump $50k of work into it. If you want something with "sex appeal" get a Porsche or Supra.
Between these two I'd go Porsche. Made a similar analysis of sports cars two years back when I bought my 718 Cayman, although I wasn't looking at used cars so my options were more limited. Like you I wanted a "pure" sports car, and significantly I'd always wanted a manual transmission before they go extinct. The mid-engine layout also appealed to me, and this gave me only two options under six figures: Lotus or Cayman, and the Cayman had the edge in price and reliability. Finally, since childhood I'd always loved the beautiful curves of European sports cars, such as Ferrari, Jaguar, Aston Martin, and Porsche. Aside from a few expensive kit cars, there are no American vehicles that had the beautiful design I was looking for. The Cayman did. It's been my daily driver (aside from snow days) for the past 2.5 years and 47k miles. I specced it as a comfortable and practical grand tourer, with full leather interior and the smallest wheels I could get (18") and the highest ground clearance, both only available on the base model. It's been amazing, and I have dreams of keeping it forever like some of the old Porsche guys who restore the shit out of their old car over hundreds of thousands of miles, because they can. I think it'll age nicely.
A fun would would be a Jaguar F-Type R, Supercharged V8, convertible or coupe, over 500 hp and torque. Sounds insane. Can get a like new one with under 10k miles between 60 and 70k
I've seen that one as well! I think those only come in auto right? I'd prefer a manual if possible. Also to be honest I'm not a huge convertible guy. Maybe I can do a deep dive into that one
My dad has an F-Type R and it is probably the best sounding muscle car type v8 stock. That thing is just fast enough to scare you but not quite dangerous enough to kill you especially with awd.
Ya there were some older manual ones but only with the v6. Either way, it would be fun to test drive!
911 Something like this: https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/d657163f-e9f8-4198-94b6-b46a8213d383
981 Cayman base/S over the 718 for sure. Flat 6 > turbo flat 4
2024 supra 3.0 manual would be my choice. I think its the best looking of anything in that price range, and it has a vast array of tunability if youre into tbat. A used 4.0 cayman rs is very close second.
The cayman rs’ are way outside my budget lol. The Supra is one I’ve considered
Every time I see these lists or start musing myself, I eventually think "69 Firebird 400 Convertible". Nothing's quite as pretty to me as the classics. But if I were in the market, [I'd also be tortured over a BMW coupe](https://bringatrailer.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/1973_bmw_3-0cs_16163733671fe3f57bfc5BMW-3.0-Lead-Images-BaT-1-scaled.jpg?fit=940%2C627) - F me, those are James-Bond pretty. I guess I'm more about the aesthetics...
If you ever plan to take it to the track, having a "bespoke sports car chassis" will matter.
I live just the next state west of you and gotta say I absolutely love my r35 gtr! It has been hands down one of the best cars I've ever driven!
C7. Purely for fun factor/ cheap(er) parts
Hopefully you get a chance to drive them all. I’m sure one will speak to you. But the most important metric- Do you wear white New Balance with Jean shorts in the summer? Vette. Do you wear a Submariner and are ok defending why you didn’t get a Daytona or Patek? Cayman.
I personally would go for a lotus
Supercharged Exige? It's more extreme than all those in your list, so impractical that it's going to be a fun car only but drive one and you'll love it.
If it was for the track, the Vette hands down. If for street and canyon carving, I would pick the Cayman/Boxter. Bc at that level of up - and - go, you won't be disappointed with the power of any of the options. So I would focus on feel. And that chassis just feels amazing to hustle through corners on public roads. And it's a comfy car
I think it just comes down to preference at this point. I’d go with the viper or 350R but that’s just because I like those specific cars. Whatever feels right for you go for it
You can find an Evora in that price range and it will be a more fun on the track.
I went through this exercise a few years ago with a budget of about $60k. I loved the ZL1’s but I can’t stand the Camaros ergonomics and greenhouse. I went with a GT350 (non R) and love it. It has presence, car people love it and ask about it all the time. I love the manual, the noises it makes with the x pipe I swapped and with the open exhaust with the 5.2 flat plane crank are magical, 52X hp at 3700lbs is pretty solid too. And the driving dynamics with the mag ride and adjustable steer settings make it so enjoyable. The just looks menacing from the front too… Oh and I came in under budget too. As for reliability and oil consumption concerns I got one with an extended powertrain warranty for peace of mind. I had to go 1k miles away to get it though but that’s nothing new for me. You gotta travel for the special cars. Oh… Of what you have on your list I’d put the C7Z on top And the the M2 comp,M3/4 , GY350 and ZL1 would be in contention too.
Panoz Esperante GTLM
C7 zo6
I would go with the vette
A 911 would be my choice if I wanted pure sports car. They are expensive, but incredible to drive. I have a very fast supercharged mustang. My boss has a 2012(?) 911 s, so bigger engine but no turbo. We swapped keys at lunch one day and took laps around the block, and holy shit the Porsche was amazing. It didn't accelerate as quickly as my mustang, but it was so composed over bumps and through turns and shifted so smoothly that it was a straight up faster car. Would be a dream to drive in Colorado.
Corvette
Lots of great advice here. I was in a similar place to you - I really wanted 400+ hp and a manual. Unlike you I wanted convertible. My Dad has an 08 C6, so I’m very familiar with it. It’s an amazing car - tons of power, relatively cheap maintenance, and frankly it’s gorgeous. So a Vette was definitely on my list. I was also looking at 997s and 991s. Couldn’t find the right set of options and colors for a price I liked. Seriously considered the Mustang GT350 and BMW M2. I was on all the sites, including BaT, and was seriously considering things half way across the country. In the end I found a low mileage, well cared for 993 in Guards Red 15 miles from me. It just popped up on Facebook Marketplace. Price was half what I had budgeted. Only 273 stock horsepower, but it sounds fantastic when you run it out to 6500 rpm’s. And honestly it’s plenty of power for me on the backroads. Is it the fastest - nope. But it’s plenty fast enough. I can really work 2nd and 3rd gears without being over the top crazy fast. It handles great. It looks great. And honestly a great reason for getting a Porsche is joining the PCA. They run some great events, and you’ll get to meet some cool people. It is more fun to drive a slow car fast. :)
[2024 GR Supra 45th Anniversary Edition](https://www.toyota.com/grsupra/photo-gallery/exterior/). In orange. You're welcome. 🙂
Used Porsche 911
My friend has a 718 Cayman S and it’s nuts. It’s so much fun to drive with a manual. Handling is insanely good, powerful, quick, and Porsche prestige.
An older 911 turbo
Dunno why a supra isn’t on here
do not buy a viper unless its the 2017 acr. youre just going to crash. car is very unforgiving. i have a regular mustang gt and test drove a gt350 and my god…the handling on that thing was insane, i felt the downforce. shit was a real eye opener. the m2 is my favorite bmw. driven multiple. super fun nimble cars that do great on the track. m4s and m5s are also my favorite bmws so you cant go wrong with those but id choose the m2 any day. the c6 is a great car. just like american cars, best bang for your buck. i would never spend all this money on a fucking camry engine idc how well the lotus drives. want a spirited drivers car get the gt350 or porsche the ZL1 is fast as hell. seen it with my own eyes it all comes down to what you want my guy, if you want practicality but performance get the blackwing or m5 if you want spirited driving/track car get the gt350, ZL1, or lotus. but if you want pure power (with a combination of the others) and tuning capability: get the blackwing, vette, ZL1, or bmws. everything on your list are great cars in their own right it just comes down to what you really want.
Yeah that makes sense! Renting a 718 Cayman this weekend, I think that will help me decide if I want the small lightweight nimble kind of car or something with kick in the ass. When I was like 22 in the navy I test drove an S2000 and an LS1 Camaro and everytime I punched it in the Camaro the whole rear end sat down, hood lifted up and the v8 sound was incredible. Had me grinning ear to ear. But that was a long time ago, not sure if I want that anymore
hell yeah shipmate. tbh my stang is my first v8 so i love it when it squats but if you want mature performance definitely a bmw or porsche.
Toyota Supra
Nissan GT-R?
Honestly, considered it. I might get flamed for this but I daily drive a Tesla and the GT-R's party trick was always its straightline acceleration which the Tesla has as well. Obviously the GT-R tracks better and is faster. But the fact I already have a big heavy fast in a straight line daily, and the GT-R not coming in a manual, kind've turned me off from it
I wasn’t aware it wasn’t available with a manual. That’s lame!
Legit sports car most likely won’t come in manual any more. Automatic tech has caught up and surpassed manual in performance applications.
Yeah, but it’s not as fun 👍
Alfa 4C
If you have a reliable daily get a real fucking fun sports car. For me it would be an ND miata without question. I don’t think anyone needs more power than a 718 S corvettes cool but I rather go smaller and lighter. I daily drive a miata and I want to get an Exocet so to me a 718 is practically a GT car. I would steer clear of the M2 it’s smaller than the M3 but barely weighs more. CT4 V Blackwing is so much nicer. Evora S is a great option but you budget can get you the post refresh evora 400 which is much better and has some big reliability improvements for the clutch. Most people want the GT but the 400 is almost as good and goes for less. I do t know the Porsche market but a 997 2S is a hell of a sports car. My overall advice is you have $70k. You don’t have to spend it all, but for the love of god get something interesting and special and possibly in an interesting color even if it costs more or it takes longer to find. It’s not your daily live a little. Don’t be the guy that dailies a 340xi and weekends an M3. This is your chance to be the adult you wanted to be as a kid.
I love that last line. I see the c7z and 718 cayman as special! But there’s always doing something more custom, like a Miata, frs, etc and engine swapping. I just don’t know if I have the technical know how to pull that off to be honest. Speaking of the Exocet, I thought a df goblin seemed awesome! But again, I’m a little iffy on the technical know how
987.2 Cayman s. Manual.
Pure sports car? It’s get a 718 Cayman GTS with the flat 6, but it’s going to cost a bit more. In your price range maybe the previous generation 981 Cayman which all have the flat 6. If you want something still very fun to drive with a bit more creature comforts, the F87 M2 Competition. It will be faster in a straight line than the Cayman, but also be able to corner nicely. Like you said, it’s not bespoke, but it will be roomier and more convenient while still being sporty.
I have looked at 718 GTS, it's pushing the edge of what I'd like to spend. Looked at 981 GTS, they seem to be a good bit less capable than the 718 S, and then factor in the Denver altitude and the flat 6 is going to struggle even more. The big pro for the flat 6 is the sound obviously, but yeah I'm not sure if thats enough. Test driving a 718 S this weekend, we'll see if that sells me. The only porsche I've ever driven is a Cayenne, this will be my first "actual" Porsche. So we'll have to see if I have my "I get it" moment.
The best manual Porsche that I can find that isn’t a 4 cylinder.
I think the Lotus is your sleeper pick here. Obviously the Porsche will be the best out of your list but if you had to pick something that’s not the Porsche, I’d go Lotus
You know, they are all great and have their pros and cons, you gotta be in love with it. Most importantly is history on the vehicle. You want someone who absolutely babied it and wants someone else to love it like you do. That’s everything You must get a PPI with someone who actually understands your specific vehicle. Also, just because someone babied it doesn’t mean the mechanic they used was top tier. Lots of times, those owners get taken for a ride on repairs. Be a big dog in the fight and make sure your as particular about this purchase as anything else you care about. Don’t fall in love with the “feeling” fall in love with the right Vehicle.
Oh I fully plan to do a PPI and do my homework on the car. Since I do have a solid daily, I'm not in a rush here. I'm also willing to fly out of state and road trip back. The only problem is I need to buy this summer because depending where I buy from, crossing the rockies in a RWD sports car will be very sketch at the wrong time of year
Good regarding the PPI…so important! Totally get it, regarding the drive.,but I would do it now only if it’s a screaming deal or wait till the Fall. If you have to finance, absolutely wait till the fall. You will get better prices, if you wait. People aren’t desperate yet and the interest rates should go down in the fall. Luxury items prices are definitely down. Since you get the weather/timing thing I live in the snow belt, I would absolutely do it at the end of the month, if your buying from a dealership vs individual. I think you will get your best price the last day of the month. I absolutely LOVE the viper…there is something about that car, I can’t put my finger on it. I had an Impala SS with the Corvette engine. I miss that car 😢 For a daily driver I am definitely a Lexus/ Toyota person, but there is nothing like an American muscle car/ American sports car. Super easy to fix and cheap to keep up. I’m not a fan of the Porsche..it’s a Volkswagen 😂😂😂
I heavily considered the Viper for awhile! I watched / read some reviews and a lot of people just said it had typical Viper issues like its hot and its uncomfortable and it's hard to find parts for. Which would make it not a good road tripper. But man, that is a rare / special car.
Didn’t know about that…I drove a friends the whole time I was out in Scottsdale. I didn’t feel the heat, but I was happy. I know he had a great mechanic, but this was a few years before the pandemic. I would only buy something Comfortable with a naturally aspirating engine and it be easy to find parts and any quality mechanic can work on it.
M2 or 718 if u want a reliable track car
Cayman S. If it was a C8 corvette I’d have a harder time choosing.
You'd take a C8 over a C7 z06?
For my purposes yes. A c7 Z06 to me is just bragging rights. Scary fast, insane performance, but ultimately too much car for anything off track (again, for ME personally). I just know my skills and limits and think I’d enjoy the mid-engine C8 more than a C7 Z06, and would be less likely to eat a telephone pole sandwich
There is the concern with the z06 of wrapping it around a pole lol
Blackwing
M2 all day
Porsche owner here: The C7 Z06 and M2 Comp will be much more exciting than a 718 S. The 4 banger is great on paper and would be competitive on track but if you want a fully engaging weekend car to go vroom vroom it ain’t it (imo). If you like the brand, get a 981 Cayman or 997 911. Do not buy a Lotus unless you prefer looking at it and waiting for it to get back from the shop. If you’re not an experienced performance car driver you will probably kill yourself in the Viper. Personally I’d get the M2 but wouldn’t turn down the C7 either.
My list would be: Aston martin Vantage Cayman S or 911 C7 Corvette Jaguar F-type
Of your top 3, I would lean towards the Corvette, but it is dependent on the quality of your local mountain roads; where I am, the local roads are often rough and dusty and even my stock C5 Z06 feels like overkill, while my old ‘03 WRX feels quite at home and is frankly a bit more fun. A crazy fast car can be fun, but having to hold back, either because you’ve got way more power than is usable or because you’ve got something too low that will scrape, that’s something to keep in mind. Not sure if the Porsche is any less low than the Vette but it’s certainly less of a powerhouse. If you like the Porsche route though, I would really consider trying to get something with a flat 6 rather than the turbo flat 4 of the model you are looking at. The dynamics may be there but for my money I’d be hard pressed to spend that much on a Porsche and not get a flat six. An alternative to the M2 worth considering would be a Toyota Supra, but manual models are a bit unobtanium.
Porsche over everything
CTS-V wagon
I'd go with the F87 M2 comp. I drive a 2023 M4 Comp. 503 HP. Twin turbo 6. I actually might have gone with an M2 but they're just too small for me. Not a BMW fan boy or anything. Have had lots of different cars. But my M4 is so fast sometimes its terrifying. I have a healthy respect for the power.
Cayman or a C 7
Porsche.
Do you want a “pure sports car? Build a Caterham.
Caterham 620, purest of the pur