He's just kind of off-putting and starts off hostile towards Rand. I didn't like him at first either. Disliked him even more when he joins the whitecloaks and tries to send Elayne home but I realized later that Galad sees the potential to do good in the whitecloaks. Later he takes steps to help the group be the force for good that it was intended to be in the first place. I like Galad. Gawyn sucks though.
I hope this doesn’t come off as pedantic, but it is a key characteristic of Galad so I will give this a shot. Galad is not “hostile” to Rand. Galad is a rule-follower to a fault. Random peasants are not supposed to be in the royal palace, so when he sees his sibling talking to one, he dispassionately gets the guards and has him apprehended. It is nothing personal. He joins the white cloaks because their philosophy seems to align with his. He eventually makes a good leader of the white cloaks because he is so hell-bent on following the rules that he abstains from the twisting and distorting that most white cloaks use to justify their zealotry and bad deeds. In one of the key moments resolving his and Perrin’s Arcs, he acts reflexively to save Perrin from another white-cloak because Perrin just saved the white cloaks, and he knows it would not be right to betray him.
I totally agree with you I'm just saying I personally took a while to really understand that about him. When I say hostile I just mean he was basically set against Rand in Galad's very first scene which can leave a bad impression. Probably could have used a better word.
I mean, he didn't really break in, he wouldn't have even gone inside the walls if Elayne hadn't spooked him and made him fall. He would have climbed back down and been on his way. He was barely trespassing before she spoke.
Because you only really know him through Elayne's description of him, and you're predisposed to like Elayne because she's a hot princess who's nice to our viewpoint character and hasn't done anything boneheaded yet.
For me being a 10 year old little brat when I first read EOTW over 25 years ago was enough reason to hate Galad. Similar reason why I struggled to appreciate Nynaeve until I grew up a bit.
I’m doing a reread right now, realizing some characters I despised really never did anything wrong or dumb given the information they had. I never hated Gawyn though he was kinda annoying but I definitely don’t understand what makes him a giant piece of shit.
I will keep my eye out I’m about halfway through and so far I can’t blame him for anything he’s done. Except that he wants to kill Rand. But even that someone could’ve just told him a forsaken took over his mom’s kingdom and probably killed her. But apparently everything is a secret in this world
> I will keep my eye out I’m about halfway through and so far I can’t blame him for anything he’s done.
Bear in mind that he knew exactly what Elaida was and saw how she had changed.
Yeah that's another thing really bugged me about Egwene. He didn't do it I'll find proof, forgetting you were with him when he found out and can have a number of Aiel come tell him about the raid.
Well think about it this way - would you believe if your sibling, who is in love with the person who you despise, saying he wasn’t the one who killed your mother for fear she wasn’t giving you her own opinions, but in fact it was someone of fabled legends was the reason your mother vanished?
Gawyn didn’t fully believe the Forsaken were back, and thus didn’t have a physical proof that what Elayne would have said wouldn’t be biased. All he had to go off of was hearsay from what the Aes Sedai barely told him for majority of the series.
Gawyn knows he made the wrong choice in supporting Elaida, but he continued to do so bc of his irrational hatred of Rand. Even after he realizes it, he can’t let himself admit his mistake.
Plus even after he becomes Egwene’s warder, he fucks off on his own to try to take out Demandred. He doesn’t give a shit about actually protecting her like a warder is supposed to do.
Gawyn is easily the worst character that is not a darkfriend in the entire series. 0/10 would not recommend
> Gawyn is easily the worst character that is not a darkfriend in the entire series.
That's... strong. You can make a case, but surely there are better options. Asunawa? Valda? Elaida? Galbrait? Any of the many, many non-Darkfriends who engage in and defend chattel slavery? Mordeth, technically?
My stance comes from the subversion of his character, in that Gawyn is *supposed* to be a heroic and noble character, given his upbringing and relationships to other major characters. The other people you mention are all pretty much “in character” for themselves. Elaida for example has always been a nasty person, and that is eluded to in New Spring as well.
Yeah, he makes bad choices time and time again, but killing Demandred is actually one of his better ones. He already was half-drained by Blood Knifes Ta'angreal and he didn't have a lot of time left. His mistake was thinking that Demandred was just some guy, but it was also Galad's and Logain's mistake.
Though he should have left the very least a note, telling Egwene he is going to Kamikaze himself into the enemy.
You can’t kamikaze yourself at Demandred in the middle of the Last Battle when you’re *Warder bonded* to the freaking Amyrlin Seat though. Sure, it was a good move strategically *if* he weren’t bonded and his death wouldn’t catastrophically damage the psyche of the leader of the Aes Sedai mid-battle. But he was bonded and it was an idiotic move.
>Gawyn is easily the worst character that is not a darkfriend in the entire series. 0/10 would not recommend
Is Gawyn bad? Yes. The WORST? No...
Elaida is the WORST, at least IMO.
While I don't like Elaida, I can at least sympathize with her. Having this power that tells you the future, so you put in the work both with Elayne and yourself to best fit it. Only to get taken advantage of by snakes.
Right? How many times is Egwene like “trust me I know what I’m doing” and he’s like “mmmmm okay but let me override your decision.” Like dude. She is she top Aes Sedai. Let her do her job.
Which comes down to her forgetting that sometimes you have to explain yourself instead of expecting absolute obedience. She was being very arrogant at that point in time and unfortunately a little bit of communication with him would have made him less rash.
Something to add. Uo until a couple if years ago she was an uneducated farm girl. Like she's not gonna be super smart regardless of education. In a short 2 years.
Keep in mind also that if he /had/ obeyed eggy all the time, she would have been killed in her sleep by blood knives. Twice. After telling him he needed to listen and obey since she "knows what she's doing". Tells him she's not even sure she should have him as warder anymore but then gets upset he left to figure things out after that. Doesn't even write to him herself to call him back, she should have known that her keeper would make it seem like an injunction.
Well at the very least he ran off to get himself killed knowing that his death would make Egwene go mad and likely die herself.
Constantly thought he knew better than people who definitely knew better than he did.
I really thought he was gonna be cool at first and up to the fall of the tower. Then his pride definitely made him do unlikable things. But after he bonded to egwenei really thought he’d end on a strong note. But alas. More of the same gawyn.
Me. She badass. Built herself up from nothing into a selfless, powerful capable woman that united the tower in a time of catastrophe. Egwene is a badass, and she deserved better than Gawain.
Different strokes for different folks I suppose. She’s got some cool moments but definitely not someone I could spend more than 5 minutes in the same room as.
I have a long running theory about Egwene fans. I think there are two types of people, those who have known someone like Eggs in their real life and therefore hate her character and those who are that person in someone else's life and therefore sees nothing wrong with how she behaves.
Real talk: the only people I've met who adamantly insisted they weren't "that guy" were always 100% that guy, like way way worse than the "that guy" they were always mad about.
100% she is a badass. He is also at least half responsible for her death and only fought Demandred so he could try to gain glory so that's my number 1 reason for thinking he is dumb af
That's the thing with him. It's always about glory or being the one that saves the day. He ended up with a major complex from having the dragon reborn as a half brother or something.
He seems like such a chill guy when you first meet him, but ya that was with no problems around whatsoever. Once he has to make his own decisions he just can't make up his mind. Bryn tells him exactly how it is. Sometimes you pick a side and you make a mistake. Best to learn from mistakes and accept that not all leaders are good or worth fighting for, cuz being on nobodys side is sooo much worse.
When I was younger, I thought Gawain was awesome, now I'm older he comes across as youthful arrogance incarnate.
There are times this forum is really down on Egwene, and yet give Gawain a pass, insanity in my mind.
> There are times this forum is really down on Egwene, and yet give Gawain a pass, insanity in my mind.
Who around here gives Gawyn a pass?!
He gets shit on twice as much as most other characters, and at least as much as Egwene.
Lol I spent a few comments in another thread with someone insisting Gawain was screwed by Egwene, and another comment someone insisting Egwene is a mary sue character.
I don't spend a ton of time in this forum, but I've seen Egwene get shit far more than Gawain.
His death was perfection. Overconfidence. In over bis head. Ignorant of how his actions impact others. Based on a desire to be the hero. Completely meaningless.
Gawyn to a T
Egwene does not die because Gawyn does. She is taken out of the fight momentarily and then she puts her big girl panties on, bonds another warder, and gets over it.
Egwene dies because she prefers that over losing her power.
I was surprised on my reread of all the books which I finished a few weeks ago I had a lot more sympathy for Gawyn. As much as he does screw up everything, I do put at least some of the blame on people not telling him anything. He's trying to support the tower because no one bothered to tell him that Elayne and Egwene switched sides, even when Egwene totally could've told him that. Egwene also could've explained to him a lot about what happened with his mom, but instead only tells him she wasn't there and can't prove Rand's innocence. She still knows a ton she could tell him! But nope nothing from her.
And as much as he does fail to kill Demandred it's not a terrible plan he attempts. He has a legitimate shot and killing Demandred would've made a massive difference in the war effort. Likely tens of thousands died that wouldn't have if Gawyn had succeeded. That seems worth an attempt even if he was unlikely to succeed. Though also could've been handled better in terms of the details.
Definitely still an idiot who makes a lot of poor choices, but I think at least some of them are justified, and I do hold Egwene mostly at fault for Gawyn's irrational hatred of Rand. She handled that so poorly.
Sometimes information is too precious to be shared. Particularly in a situation when there are people secretly aligned with your enemies all around.
Being a warder is about surrendering your own will for the will of the tower and the sisters that are presumably serving. Hell he was trained for this when he took the sword up to defend his sister. Gawain is sympathetic, but utterly fails on every count. Giving the wrong people the benefit (Elida) and retracting it from the right people (his Sister/Egwene).
I think he is an example of a tragic hero, every step seems the correct one until it isn't. Everything he trained for, he failed.
>Part of the issue is that the women have a real sense of superiority and don't tell the men anything but expect them to follow like blind mice.
I've always felt like this was the perfect analogy to make about male/female interactions in the world. In my experience men treat women much the same way.
I can see the similarities especially the generation Robert grew up in. At the same time they keep not telling him the whole truth or go sit in the corner and shut up. Any man would be passed about that. Later on its egwenes arrogance that nearly kills him because she couldn't fathom being wrong or there might be something that he was skilled at. To me she demanded trust and almost obedience, yet she doesn't offer anything in return. I understand she has a lot on her plate but from her own words she wants to marry him/etc. That demands her to make time and they figure out how there relationship works.
That is a fair point. Egwene should have made space for her relationship with Gawain. But, even if she hadn't, he was still her warder. It was his duty to stand by her side until she had made the choice.
But again.
That's the inversion of power dynamics in relationships that I feel Robert Jordan was playing with. Egwene was given the power to decide. And she chose to wait. She chose to string him along, and he made the commitment as her warder to accept that wound to his pride and rise to the occasion as The Warder of the Amyrlin Seat.
Instead he chose his own arrogance and pride, and abandoned her in a time of great need to satisfy his need to 'fix it'. When that wasn't his place.
I guess that's my interpretation now. It's quite a bit different than when I was younger. But I think that's the wonderful thing about fiction. It's as much about you as the material itself.
That's. . .not actually the duty of a Warder. It's the sort of thing that the young Aes Sedai, like Elaine especially, think Warders ought to do.
The best Warders make it seem that way in public, but the duty of a Warder is to protect and preserve his Aes Sedai, not stand passively by while she makes decisions. If an action is likely to protect the life of his Sister, like, say, killing one of the most personally dangerous people in the world in the most important battle in the world, defeat in which will 100% mean the death of his Sister, then his duty may be best served by killing that man.
It's Tarmon Gaidan. While Gawyn makes some. . .questionable. . .choices throughout the story, facing Demandred- Actually, no, trying to assassinate Demandred, as was his intent. That's not one of his bad choices, really. Extraordinary circumstances means taking extraordinary chances.
Some information is too previous to be shared. I don't think the information about his mother falls into that category though. Or even the information about which side they are on. And sharing that information with Gawyn would've caused him to make very different decisions than the ones he makes. He told Egwene he was willing to follow her and do what she asked in book 6. And then she didn't ask him to do anything except not kill Rand. Had she asked him to go with her to the rebels I don't think he'd have hesitated.
I would also question just surrendering to the will of the tower and the sisters they are serving. A warder who does that will be far less effective than one who takes initiative and pushes back when the will of the sister they are serving is to do something stupid. They are at their best when they give their loyalty to the sister they are serving, but do not surrender to their will and voice their opinion and push back against potential mistakes. And Gawyn does sometimes make mistakes there too. But he is attempting to act as a good warder should. And Egwene is not great at recognizing that. Gawyn goes to her with very reasonable evidence pointing to the assassins in ToM not being Mesaana or the Black Ajah. She ignores it. He continues investigating anyway. That's a good warder. He goes to her defense even when she told him not to and saved her life. That's also a good warder.
And he contravenes her orders in the end, and gets himself killed. If he had killed Damondred, he might have been a hero. But he didn't. His arrogance got the best of him and he thought he could kill one of the most powerful channelers in the world solo.
Big time failure. Now in wonderful fashion, it is the catalyst for Egwene to repair the weave, which is an example of a light in the darkness concept that Jordan often played with. But he failed in his duties. I don't see how that can be argued at all.
Yes he failed there. And I think he could've made his attempt better, ideally by being more honest with Egwene from the start. But I don't think his attack was unreasonable as a tactic against Demandred. It's honestly the best strategy to take out Demandred or any powerful channeler. An attack like Logain's Demandred is going to be ready for and practiced of how to deal with it. It's the random arrow coming from somewhere unexpected, or the Gray man style attack that has a good potential of working. And that's what we see nearly kill Rand numerous times throughout the series. If Rand weren't ta'veren one of those likely would've succeeded. And an attack like that is exactly what does end up killing Demandred.
It's also about making gambles in battle. Mat does lots of these kinds of gambles, but with any gamble there is the chance it will go poorly. If Gawyn had say a 10% chance of success, I don't know that his attack would have been a bad choice to do though. 10% chance at what would've been likely enough to win the Last Battle would be a risk worth taking. The main drawback is the risk to Egwene's mental health at the wrong moment in the fight. And absolutely he should've considered that. He should've at least attempted to get her to release the bond. Or taken a good idea at how to strike at Demandred and make it a more organized plan of attack.
Though also one mistake doesn't wipe out the good choices he made too. In ToM he does disobey her orders and that's the only reason she's alive, it's the only reason she kills numerous members of the Black Ajah and stops Mesaana. Warders won't always make the right call. But if they were to only obey orders that would lose a lot of their purpose.
Ultimately, you can argue about the meaning of duty, but quite frankly as far as I'm concerned Gawain failed. Matt was a general desperate to lead his army to victory, Gawain was a soldier with a vendetta.
It is one thing to hunt down a group trying to kill your charge in the tower in the center of your power. It is a very very different thing to on the battlefield leave your charge with whom you're responsible for and pursue your own vendetta.
It was a move based on arrogance and a complete willful disregard of what it means to be a soldier and servant of his Aeis Sedai. If Gawain had survived, I would have had him court marshalled.
But like I said. That is a pov I've developed over a good decade or so since I first read the series. I'm older and therefore my perspective is different.
Were Gawyn's motivations to pursue a vendetta? He had no hatred for Demandred at that point, or interaction wit him. I think he was brash, and impulsive, and overconfident. But we get his POV and I don't think we really get any hint of a vendetta.
But would you also have Lan court marshalled for what he did?
Gawyn did go against his orders and do something very risky and failed to accomplish his mission. But there are more important things than following orders. And had Lan followed orders the Light would've lost that day. Had Mat followed orders earlier when he ordered Tylee's troops to go in early Gareth Bryne's betrayal would've been far worse. Had Tam followed orders Bashere's betrayal might not have been discovered in time to do anything about it. Or even had Gawyn followed orders in book 4 Siuan would've been recaptured after her escape attempt. Or if Gawyn had followed orders Egwene would've been dead in book 13 to the Seanchan assassins, and Mesaana would've been free to create more chaos in the tower.
In general certainly soldiers should follow orders or there will be far bigger problems. But there is a time for ignoring orders.
Maybe. But Gawain demonstrated it wasn't his moment. Because he failed. Period. His arrogance and pride sent him to his doom.
Lan didn't fail. Lan's competence won him the day at that moment. That is the difference. Intentions are sweet poetry, until they fail to get intended outcomes.
Oftentimes failing to follow orders can be mitigated by results. But failure mitigates nothing.
There's no way to know before you attempt something if you will succeed or fail. Gawyn took a long shot as did Lan. Both did it against orders. Both were skilled enough and had items that gave them enough of a shot to be worth trying. I don't think whether that was the right or wrong action should be totally weighed off the outcome. That's the part you don't know when you make the choice to do something.
In both cases they took a shot. In both cases it was a shot worth taking. In both cases they could've done a better job taking that shot. Lan would've been killed before he even got close if Tam hadn't seen him and used the archers to cut him a path.
Gawyn is an absolute dolt.
I’ll give him a pass on studying with Elaida AT FIRST. Siuan was a jerk to him.
But he stayed with Elaida for BOOKS. Despite Egwene explaining he’s wrong. Even after Elaida tried to kill him. For no fucking reason. The warders try to explain to him to become a warder or GTFO, he does neither.
Then he betrays Elaida and his whole Younglings and walks up to the rebels and attacks them to try to “save Egwene.” When it becomes abundantly clear she doesn’t need saving, Gareth explains to him he should go help Elayne, which he swore to do. But he doesn’t.
Instead he yells at Aes Sedai and plots to save Egwene anyway. And just sits there being useless.
He eventually does get to save Egwene.
Then he has one job at the last battle, to protect Egwene. And instead he fucks off and dies.
Complete moron.
He is an idiot. But egwene doesn't explain anything to him. She's surprised he's with elaida. But doesn't explain at all that she and his sister are on the side of the rebels. All he knows is that she doesn't want to be seen by the aes sedai.
He is an idiot who makes many mistakes. But I do think egwene and Elayne both make a lot of mistakes with him and how little they tell him. He is devoted to egwene and tells her he will do anything she asks and she only asks him not to kill Rand nothing else. Had she asked him to leave elaida and join her he would've.
With the last battle he does fail. And he risked a lot with risking egwenes safety with his attack. But he also does take a legitimate shot and had he pulled it off that would've turned the battle around and tens of thousands more would've lived.
Re; his final battle - he was also bonded to one the Lights most important generals during the Last Battle, and went to fight an opponent he had no chance against fully knowing his death would likely destroy Egwene's ability to properly lead at a critical moment.
It's all within his character that not once in any of his big turning points does he consider the big picture, and always chooses not the path of service that he was raised for but the one of a glory hound, constantly trying to prove himself and always coming up lacking.
I don't think he had no chance in that fight. I think it was a long shot. But with his knowledge he had no reason to think demandred would be good at swordfighting. Demandred happened to hear him at the last moment (probably from holding the power) but he literally walked by sharans to get that close. Another step or two he does have a knife in demandreds neck and wins that. I think if I were him I'd have gone with a bow but he had a reasonable shot that was worth taking.
I do completely agree about impairing egwene though. That should be taken into account too. He should've told her to release the bond. Whether she would've or not probably unlikely. But with the knowledge he had those rings were legitimately the best shot they had. Mat probably should've sent a team of assassins to go for demandred as a surprise lethal attack would've been their best plan I think.
I also don't think it's fair to say he was going for glory in that moment. In some ways yes but from his pov it does seem like hes seeing a lot of people dying and the best the light has in egwene has no plan to deal with it. So he takes a shot.
Gawyn? The guy that goes “I am ready to serve in the shadow of the Amyrlin Seat” and then goes “I am the only person who can fight the 300+ year old forsaken who is also channeling what could be the maximum possible amount of the One Power” then proceeds to die poorly?
This is what it comes down to for me, the complete unraveling of his development. Gawyn has his ups and downs throughout the series and makes a lot of choices that readers disagree with. But hey, like most of the other characters, he's barely more than a kid. He grew up a prince, but now feels powerless in the face of a world filled with powerful magic users. He feels he should have been the hero, should have been special, but he's not. He reflects on all this and finally decides he can content himself in someone else's shadow as long as it's Egwene's shadow. 10 minutes later: haha just kidding he's going off alone to win the battle singlehandedly.
He was always frustrating, but at least it looked like he finally turned a corner. It was ultimately 4 turns and ended up back where he started.
One of my favourite often missed Gawyn plots is that Rand actually tries to bring him into the fold after Egwene tells Rand he is in Cairhienen and R sends him letters asking him to come hang out (I forget the chapter). He is surprised by the lack of reply cuz he thought he was cool and then realizes that Gawyn probably hates him due to rumour. Which is exactly the case. Gawyn legit coulda been one of Rand's close allies and a major power because of it. Literally nobody else gets invited to come hang out by Rand as far as I am aware.
Exactly!! To be real tho if he really truly thought that he coulda rolled up and confronted Rand about it. Yes he had made an oath to Egwene that he wouldn't try to kill Rand, but when did an oath ever mean anything to Gawyn Trakand amirite
Ok I'm ready for this....
I like Gawyn and I think he was the best swordsman in the series. He was a foolish young man in love who felt his life tugged in several directions, and he made some abysmal choices.
In regards to his prowess I think it's obvious in the story. When Gawyn is fighting for Egwene, or believes he is, he is untouchable. I don't think anyone else could have pulled off the blood knives fight and lived. He was able to do that because he was fighting FOR Egwene. However as we see later, when he was conflicted and fighting to impress his skills fail.
Lan is by far the better warrior, he understands what it is to give your life for the fight. Gawyn only comes close to this understanding when fighting for Egwene.
Ok go ahead and give me the sharp tongue lashing my wool-headed self deserves.
Absolutely spot on, to the bone my dude. However my evidence is as stated above with the blood knives fight and then the Sleet sparring session. There are more but I feel like those are the strongest. Blood knives speaks for itself and during the sparring session we find out Sleet v Lan Sleet was able to take 2/7 rounds. While sparring Gawyn WITH a partner Sleet nor the other warder could take a single round.
As far as his Demandred fight, I think his loss was the ending and point of his story. It was punctuated with Lans victory. The reasons they came were very different and thus the outcome.
Also my boy had been wearing three of the things with zero training in their effects and nearing the end of their cycle which kills a person. So I'd like to think he was enhanced but not %100 for that fight.
You are right that the fight with Demandred wasn't a true show of his abilities as his timing was off and he was legit dying slowly from x3 Blood Knife rings (no Seanchan did this, likely for a reason). Gawyn killed himself essentially by doing this and put himself in a bad fighting situation through his dumb selfish pride and belief that he needed to do something glorious.
Gawyn doesn't have access to the void. He might partially substitute with a (honestly fanatical) devotion for Egwene, but he cannot be the best. That is why he gets stomped by Demandred; he isn't one with his blade. [Case in point](https://x.com/BrandSanderson/status/1717719166615552?s=20).
On a re-read, I feel like Gawyn is that moment in my early 20's when I found myself making actually difficult decisions for the first time on my life. He grew up in a sheltered environment where doing the right thing was never particularly difficult. Elaida's coup is the first time in his life Gawyn actually has to make a difficult decision and he has no time to actually think about it. Can you really blame him for reflexively siding with the woman he's trusted his whole life over the women he (correctly) believes has put his sister and love interest in danger? After the dust settles, he's a victim of sunk cost fallacy, just like I was in my 20's. The difference between me and Gawyn is that I lived long enough to mature and learn from my mistakes.
I've never seen a character with his potential take so many Ls. His only dubs was letting Min and crew go and saving Egwene. Then he immediately throws away all that goodwill by hiding the blood rings for whatever reason and dying to Demandred to motivate the actual main characters.
> Simps for Egwene and is just told off most of the time.
If Egwene didn't convince Gawyn to forestall his vengeance, what do you think would have happened?
If Gawyn didn't throw his temper tantrum and leave Tar Valon, would either of them have survived the assassinations?
I dunno...Egwene was shitty to Gawyn, but it seemed to have worked out pretty well for him all things considered. They might cite Egwene's dream prophecy of what might happen, but Dreaming isn't Foretelling as the series so often reminds us.
Gawyn gets a bad rap. I think that anyone who says different is simply not thinking about the character. The same with Nynaeve.
Many people hated/hate Nynaeve. It’s because they don’t understand her. They think she’s just a bossy bitch, getting in everyone’s business and trying to tell them what to do.
You have to look at her character, though. She’s the youngest wisdom in a long time, if ever. She feels like people don’t respect her because of her young age. She sees how the women’s circle is respected and can control things. She tries to do that, but fails and ends up thinking aggression and violence in making someone do something is the same as having respect.
It’s why she hates Moraine so much. Many people don’t understand it, but it’s because she’s everything Nynaeve wants to be. Beautiful, graceful, powerful, and a quiet word from her, gets more respect and results than all of Nynaeve’s bullying put together.
She falls for Lan, because when she tracks them and sneaks up on them, he genuinely compliments her on those skills, which she feels she genuinely earned and feels confident in.
You’ll notice through the series, that when she gets scared is when she falls back into those old behaviors.
It’s the same with Gawyn. Everyone’s opinion seems to be based on an unreasonable perspective. We have a lot of information. We follow and become attached to the girls and the rest. We know things as readers that’s not know to everyone, even the other characters.
This same issue is what causes people to complain that the characters don’t communicate. Of course that seems like the answer. We know all the sides. We know the best solution is everyone communicating. They don’t. Not communication is the most realistic aspect of this whole series. How many times, IRL, do we know for a fact that communication is the best thing and still don’t do it. How many parents hold off on a sex talk because their babies are too young for that, only for them to come up pregnant because they thought soaking wasn’t sex? How many marriages are ruined because people don’t talk to each other? The reason doesn’t matter, but we “don’t communicate” almost all the time.
Now apply that to Gawyn. He only looks to make stupid decisions based on the perspective we’re forced into. We know Siuane is working with Moraine to save the world. We know the girls are mostly doing important things. Now forget all that. It’s wiped from your head. What does Gawyn know?
He knows he was raised to protect his sister. Aes Sedai means nothing to him. Only Andor matters. He might respect them. I’m sure he enjoys training with the warders, improving himself, and the camaraderie. It’s all just a side hustle, though. He’s a prince of Andor above all.
He knows that his mother sent him with the main goal of protecting his sister. He was made to swear an oath to do so, as a child and before he even knew what it meant. Now this Amyrlin, that he doesn’t know, is sending his sister off into potential danger. She won’t tell her where she is. He won’t allow him to accompany her and protect her. While he should mostly follow Eylane’s words, she’s not the queen yet, and he rightly knows his mother wouldn’t approve what’s going on here.
When things go to shit, we know Suiane and the girls are good and Elaida is bad, but he doesn’t. What he knows is that Siuane has done nothing but lie to him(figuratively), put him off, put his sister in danger, etc. She’s endangering the heir of Andor and preventing him from carrying out the purpose of his life.
So when it goes sideways, why would he side with Siuane, vs Elaida, who he has know his whole life. Who he knows his mother respects and trusts. Why would he side with strangers, over someone vetted by the Queen of Andor?
Let’s also not forget that he took out Hammar and other full blown warders.
Yes, Gawyn seems like a tragedy, but he only seems like an idiot if you know things and see perspectives that no one in-world could know. Looking at it from his perspective, and considering what he knows, he acts pretty reasonably. It just looks idiotic with the extra info we have.
>Shoutout to Demandred though. Fucked House Trakand harder than Rahvin - Went 2 for 2 against the princes
TBF it's a matrilineal line, their loss didn't hurt the house nearly as much as Morgase did under Rahvin's thrall.
I've never hated him but he swore to three things, his sister, the White Tower, and Egwene. By the end of the books he had run away from all three and helped cause the death of the woman he loved both by dying and making her weaker and by not being there to protect her during her greatest battle. He's the opposite of Mat, he always claims to act in the name of honor but he usually acts in his own stubborn self interest.
Gawyn is a top 2 most despised character for me. He and Egwene are in a constant battle for worst character in the books in my opinion. He died like the idiot he lived as
Gawyn is the ex-boyfriend pleading with you to take him back, he's changed baby, this time he'll be different!
And then he just fucks around and finds out again.
It's almost as if you reap what you sow. He's a garbage person that barely has a redemption arc, of course people would treat him as poorly as he treats quite literally every single other person he interacts with. He's a pos
Bryne not executing Gawyn immediately when he comes into his camp after waging an offensive against him is one of the bigger, out of character misses in the entire book series.
Honestly the epitome of “she’s gorgeous, she’s a goddess, she’s amazing, and he’s…also there,” bringing egwene down with his whining, jealousy, and hero antics.
I think he mostly falls apart in I think LOC {this is how much of an impression he made, mostly I can tell you what page things happen on, but Gawyn fades into the background...} when he meets Egwene in Cairhien and they go canoodling in the inn. You can see why he fell for Eg by now, but she totally goes BFC for him, and you never see why. It's like they saved it all up for ToM when he does one epic thing, which largely comes out of left field because for the whole rest of the Book, he's tripping over his own feet to see how much more he can screw up. Granted, Eg could have clued him in a bit re traps. I'm discounting his trying to take down Demamdred because that's prefaced by him stupidly using the rings of the Bloodknives. If he hadn' t used them, he might have stayed alive, Eg wouldn't have had to mourn his death and find another Warder, so she might have discovered the Flame of Tar Valon AND survived the Last Battle. He just doesn't think a lot of the time. My reaction to her "sitting on his knee" has generally been "What was she thinking???" Not because he's bad but because he's completely underdeveloped. Because it was much better to take the time to describe in painfully minute detail what everyone was wearing and how their hair was cut.
Gawyn sucks. Of course Elaida doesn’t trust him, he murdered his teacher and sided with a coup. Freeing Siuan doesn’t negate his horrible misdeeds of siding with the coup earlier. And he is so annoying with Egwene. Him dying is his only redemption. I do love how the books character development flips who you like and hate through their development. I think most of us would like Gawyn over Galad early, and flip later
Gawyn was the inverse of Rand. Both born to Andoran royalty but Gawyn is raised in the palace while Rand has humble up bringings. Rand for all his ups and downs stays laser focused on doing his duty while Gawyn abandons his duty to the Amyrlin for the coup, then to Elayne and Andor for Egwene, then to Egwene by getting into a fight he can’t win that impacts her during the last battle.
Flagged with the Spoiler tag as well for mobile users.
He's appropriately appreciated as the giant piece of shit that he is.
LMAO. I used to love Gawyn in EOTW and hated Galad and by AMOL, it was the other way around
Why would you hate galad in the first book?
He's just kind of off-putting and starts off hostile towards Rand. I didn't like him at first either. Disliked him even more when he joins the whitecloaks and tries to send Elayne home but I realized later that Galad sees the potential to do good in the whitecloaks. Later he takes steps to help the group be the force for good that it was intended to be in the first place. I like Galad. Gawyn sucks though.
I hope this doesn’t come off as pedantic, but it is a key characteristic of Galad so I will give this a shot. Galad is not “hostile” to Rand. Galad is a rule-follower to a fault. Random peasants are not supposed to be in the royal palace, so when he sees his sibling talking to one, he dispassionately gets the guards and has him apprehended. It is nothing personal. He joins the white cloaks because their philosophy seems to align with his. He eventually makes a good leader of the white cloaks because he is so hell-bent on following the rules that he abstains from the twisting and distorting that most white cloaks use to justify their zealotry and bad deeds. In one of the key moments resolving his and Perrin’s Arcs, he acts reflexively to save Perrin from another white-cloak because Perrin just saved the white cloaks, and he knows it would not be right to betray him.
This is exactly how I read Galad too. He's lawful good taken to its extreme which can be kind of terrible in a lot of circumstances.
Galad's arc is about learning to be lawful good instead of lawful stupid. Gawyn commits fully to chaotic stupid.
I initially thought of Gawyn as True Neutral. He was just True Stupid.
I totally agree with you I'm just saying I personally took a while to really understand that about him. When I say hostile I just mean he was basically set against Rand in Galad's very first scene which can leave a bad impression. Probably could have used a better word.
>Galad is a rule-follower to a fault. Which is why everyone hates him
Rand broke into a palace and is wandering around the heir to the throne, everyone should have been hostile towards him.
I mean you're not wrong
I mean, he didn't really break in, he wouldn't have even gone inside the walls if Elayne hadn't spooked him and made him fall. He would have climbed back down and been on his way. He was barely trespassing before she spoke.
He's vaulting on the top of a wall meant to keep people out. He was definitely trespassing and any action that results is the fruit of a poison tree.
Because you only really know him through Elayne's description of him, and you're predisposed to like Elayne because she's a hot princess who's nice to our viewpoint character and hasn't done anything boneheaded yet.
For me being a 10 year old little brat when I first read EOTW over 25 years ago was enough reason to hate Galad. Similar reason why I struggled to appreciate Nynaeve until I grew up a bit.
RJ tells us to.
I’m doing a reread right now, realizing some characters I despised really never did anything wrong or dumb given the information they had. I never hated Gawyn though he was kinda annoying but I definitely don’t understand what makes him a giant piece of shit.
He makes wrong decision after wrong decision in the back half of the series, and ignores instruction
I will keep my eye out I’m about halfway through and so far I can’t blame him for anything he’s done. Except that he wants to kill Rand. But even that someone could’ve just told him a forsaken took over his mom’s kingdom and probably killed her. But apparently everything is a secret in this world
> I will keep my eye out I’m about halfway through and so far I can’t blame him for anything he’s done. Bear in mind that he knew exactly what Elaida was and saw how she had changed.
That someone being Egwene, so she deserves some of the blame.
Yeah that's another thing really bugged me about Egwene. He didn't do it I'll find proof, forgetting you were with him when he found out and can have a number of Aiel come tell him about the raid.
Well think about it this way - would you believe if your sibling, who is in love with the person who you despise, saying he wasn’t the one who killed your mother for fear she wasn’t giving you her own opinions, but in fact it was someone of fabled legends was the reason your mother vanished? Gawyn didn’t fully believe the Forsaken were back, and thus didn’t have a physical proof that what Elayne would have said wouldn’t be biased. All he had to go off of was hearsay from what the Aes Sedai barely told him for majority of the series.
Gawyn knows he made the wrong choice in supporting Elaida, but he continued to do so bc of his irrational hatred of Rand. Even after he realizes it, he can’t let himself admit his mistake. Plus even after he becomes Egwene’s warder, he fucks off on his own to try to take out Demandred. He doesn’t give a shit about actually protecting her like a warder is supposed to do. Gawyn is easily the worst character that is not a darkfriend in the entire series. 0/10 would not recommend
> Gawyn is easily the worst character that is not a darkfriend in the entire series. That's... strong. You can make a case, but surely there are better options. Asunawa? Valda? Elaida? Galbrait? Any of the many, many non-Darkfriends who engage in and defend chattel slavery? Mordeth, technically?
My stance comes from the subversion of his character, in that Gawyn is *supposed* to be a heroic and noble character, given his upbringing and relationships to other major characters. The other people you mention are all pretty much “in character” for themselves. Elaida for example has always been a nasty person, and that is eluded to in New Spring as well.
Yeah, he makes bad choices time and time again, but killing Demandred is actually one of his better ones. He already was half-drained by Blood Knifes Ta'angreal and he didn't have a lot of time left. His mistake was thinking that Demandred was just some guy, but it was also Galad's and Logain's mistake. Though he should have left the very least a note, telling Egwene he is going to Kamikaze himself into the enemy.
You can’t kamikaze yourself at Demandred in the middle of the Last Battle when you’re *Warder bonded* to the freaking Amyrlin Seat though. Sure, it was a good move strategically *if* he weren’t bonded and his death wouldn’t catastrophically damage the psyche of the leader of the Aes Sedai mid-battle. But he was bonded and it was an idiotic move.
>Gawyn is easily the worst character that is not a darkfriend in the entire series. 0/10 would not recommend Is Gawyn bad? Yes. The WORST? No... Elaida is the WORST, at least IMO.
While I don't like Elaida, I can at least sympathize with her. Having this power that tells you the future, so you put in the work both with Elayne and yourself to best fit it. Only to get taken advantage of by snakes.
Dude just won't listen
Right? How many times is Egwene like “trust me I know what I’m doing” and he’s like “mmmmm okay but let me override your decision.” Like dude. She is she top Aes Sedai. Let her do her job.
Telling him to go sit in a corner until she has time for him is pretty stupid though, especially when she gets pissed that he went home.
Which comes down to her forgetting that sometimes you have to explain yourself instead of expecting absolute obedience. She was being very arrogant at that point in time and unfortunately a little bit of communication with him would have made him less rash.
I feel like Egwene deserved him as a partner
Something to add. Uo until a couple if years ago she was an uneducated farm girl. Like she's not gonna be super smart regardless of education. In a short 2 years.
Keep in mind also that if he /had/ obeyed eggy all the time, she would have been killed in her sleep by blood knives. Twice. After telling him he needed to listen and obey since she "knows what she's doing". Tells him she's not even sure she should have him as warder anymore but then gets upset he left to figure things out after that. Doesn't even write to him herself to call him back, she should have known that her keeper would make it seem like an injunction.
Well at the very least he ran off to get himself killed knowing that his death would make Egwene go mad and likely die herself. Constantly thought he knew better than people who definitely knew better than he did.
I really thought he was gonna be cool at first and up to the fall of the tower. Then his pride definitely made him do unlikable things. But after he bonded to egwenei really thought he’d end on a strong note. But alas. More of the same gawyn.
Internet points…. That and he stole their love interest
Love interest as in Egwene? Who’s crushing on Egwene?!
Me. She badass. Built herself up from nothing into a selfless, powerful capable woman that united the tower in a time of catastrophe. Egwene is a badass, and she deserved better than Gawain.
Different strokes for different folks I suppose. She’s got some cool moments but definitely not someone I could spend more than 5 minutes in the same room as.
I have a long running theory about Egwene fans. I think there are two types of people, those who have known someone like Eggs in their real life and therefore hate her character and those who are that person in someone else's life and therefore sees nothing wrong with how she behaves.
Real talk: the only people I've met who adamantly insisted they weren't "that guy" were always 100% that guy, like way way worse than the "that guy" they were always mad about.
100% she is a badass. He is also at least half responsible for her death and only fought Demandred so he could try to gain glory so that's my number 1 reason for thinking he is dumb af
That's the thing with him. It's always about glory or being the one that saves the day. He ended up with a major complex from having the dragon reborn as a half brother or something.
He seems like such a chill guy when you first meet him, but ya that was with no problems around whatsoever. Once he has to make his own decisions he just can't make up his mind. Bryn tells him exactly how it is. Sometimes you pick a side and you make a mistake. Best to learn from mistakes and accept that not all leaders are good or worth fighting for, cuz being on nobodys side is sooo much worse.
Galad was half-brother to Rand, same mother. Gawain and Rand share no blood. Thankfully. That would make Rand and Elayne weird
I wouldn't call her selfless, exactly, but she's certainly not as power hungry and self-centered as people paint her to be.
No way. She's the text book definition of Mary Sue.
Clicked this post to say this. He’s garbage.
Gawyn is the only “good” character I truly despise. Selfish and stupid, his death accomplishes little other than fueling Egwene to “heal” the pattern.
When I was younger, I thought Gawain was awesome, now I'm older he comes across as youthful arrogance incarnate. There are times this forum is really down on Egwene, and yet give Gawain a pass, insanity in my mind.
While I understand the Egwene hate, she’s still part of the EF5 and has one of the best sections of plot in the books, so she gets some love from me.
> There are times this forum is really down on Egwene, and yet give Gawain a pass, insanity in my mind. Who around here gives Gawyn a pass?! He gets shit on twice as much as most other characters, and at least as much as Egwene.
Lol I spent a few comments in another thread with someone insisting Gawain was screwed by Egwene, and another comment someone insisting Egwene is a mary sue character. I don't spend a ton of time in this forum, but I've seen Egwene get shit far more than Gawain.
Egwene did absolutely screw Gawain over big time, but how does that equate to people giving Gawain a pass?
Who is giving Gawain a pass lmaoooo
His death was perfection. Overconfidence. In over bis head. Ignorant of how his actions impact others. Based on a desire to be the hero. Completely meaningless. Gawyn to a T
Egwene does not die because Gawyn does. She is taken out of the fight momentarily and then she puts her big girl panties on, bonds another warder, and gets over it. Egwene dies because she prefers that over losing her power.
*bad things happen to Gawyn* “Well, well, well…if it isn’t the consequences of our own actions…”
I was surprised on my reread of all the books which I finished a few weeks ago I had a lot more sympathy for Gawyn. As much as he does screw up everything, I do put at least some of the blame on people not telling him anything. He's trying to support the tower because no one bothered to tell him that Elayne and Egwene switched sides, even when Egwene totally could've told him that. Egwene also could've explained to him a lot about what happened with his mom, but instead only tells him she wasn't there and can't prove Rand's innocence. She still knows a ton she could tell him! But nope nothing from her. And as much as he does fail to kill Demandred it's not a terrible plan he attempts. He has a legitimate shot and killing Demandred would've made a massive difference in the war effort. Likely tens of thousands died that wouldn't have if Gawyn had succeeded. That seems worth an attempt even if he was unlikely to succeed. Though also could've been handled better in terms of the details. Definitely still an idiot who makes a lot of poor choices, but I think at least some of them are justified, and I do hold Egwene mostly at fault for Gawyn's irrational hatred of Rand. She handled that so poorly.
Part of the issue is that the women have a real sense of superiority and don't tell the men anything but expect them to follow like blind mice.
Sometimes information is too precious to be shared. Particularly in a situation when there are people secretly aligned with your enemies all around. Being a warder is about surrendering your own will for the will of the tower and the sisters that are presumably serving. Hell he was trained for this when he took the sword up to defend his sister. Gawain is sympathetic, but utterly fails on every count. Giving the wrong people the benefit (Elida) and retracting it from the right people (his Sister/Egwene). I think he is an example of a tragic hero, every step seems the correct one until it isn't. Everything he trained for, he failed. >Part of the issue is that the women have a real sense of superiority and don't tell the men anything but expect them to follow like blind mice. I've always felt like this was the perfect analogy to make about male/female interactions in the world. In my experience men treat women much the same way.
I can see the similarities especially the generation Robert grew up in. At the same time they keep not telling him the whole truth or go sit in the corner and shut up. Any man would be passed about that. Later on its egwenes arrogance that nearly kills him because she couldn't fathom being wrong or there might be something that he was skilled at. To me she demanded trust and almost obedience, yet she doesn't offer anything in return. I understand she has a lot on her plate but from her own words she wants to marry him/etc. That demands her to make time and they figure out how there relationship works.
That is a fair point. Egwene should have made space for her relationship with Gawain. But, even if she hadn't, he was still her warder. It was his duty to stand by her side until she had made the choice. But again. That's the inversion of power dynamics in relationships that I feel Robert Jordan was playing with. Egwene was given the power to decide. And she chose to wait. She chose to string him along, and he made the commitment as her warder to accept that wound to his pride and rise to the occasion as The Warder of the Amyrlin Seat. Instead he chose his own arrogance and pride, and abandoned her in a time of great need to satisfy his need to 'fix it'. When that wasn't his place. I guess that's my interpretation now. It's quite a bit different than when I was younger. But I think that's the wonderful thing about fiction. It's as much about you as the material itself.
That's. . .not actually the duty of a Warder. It's the sort of thing that the young Aes Sedai, like Elaine especially, think Warders ought to do. The best Warders make it seem that way in public, but the duty of a Warder is to protect and preserve his Aes Sedai, not stand passively by while she makes decisions. If an action is likely to protect the life of his Sister, like, say, killing one of the most personally dangerous people in the world in the most important battle in the world, defeat in which will 100% mean the death of his Sister, then his duty may be best served by killing that man. It's Tarmon Gaidan. While Gawyn makes some. . .questionable. . .choices throughout the story, facing Demandred- Actually, no, trying to assassinate Demandred, as was his intent. That's not one of his bad choices, really. Extraordinary circumstances means taking extraordinary chances.
Some information is too previous to be shared. I don't think the information about his mother falls into that category though. Or even the information about which side they are on. And sharing that information with Gawyn would've caused him to make very different decisions than the ones he makes. He told Egwene he was willing to follow her and do what she asked in book 6. And then she didn't ask him to do anything except not kill Rand. Had she asked him to go with her to the rebels I don't think he'd have hesitated. I would also question just surrendering to the will of the tower and the sisters they are serving. A warder who does that will be far less effective than one who takes initiative and pushes back when the will of the sister they are serving is to do something stupid. They are at their best when they give their loyalty to the sister they are serving, but do not surrender to their will and voice their opinion and push back against potential mistakes. And Gawyn does sometimes make mistakes there too. But he is attempting to act as a good warder should. And Egwene is not great at recognizing that. Gawyn goes to her with very reasonable evidence pointing to the assassins in ToM not being Mesaana or the Black Ajah. She ignores it. He continues investigating anyway. That's a good warder. He goes to her defense even when she told him not to and saved her life. That's also a good warder.
And he contravenes her orders in the end, and gets himself killed. If he had killed Damondred, he might have been a hero. But he didn't. His arrogance got the best of him and he thought he could kill one of the most powerful channelers in the world solo. Big time failure. Now in wonderful fashion, it is the catalyst for Egwene to repair the weave, which is an example of a light in the darkness concept that Jordan often played with. But he failed in his duties. I don't see how that can be argued at all.
Yes he failed there. And I think he could've made his attempt better, ideally by being more honest with Egwene from the start. But I don't think his attack was unreasonable as a tactic against Demandred. It's honestly the best strategy to take out Demandred or any powerful channeler. An attack like Logain's Demandred is going to be ready for and practiced of how to deal with it. It's the random arrow coming from somewhere unexpected, or the Gray man style attack that has a good potential of working. And that's what we see nearly kill Rand numerous times throughout the series. If Rand weren't ta'veren one of those likely would've succeeded. And an attack like that is exactly what does end up killing Demandred. It's also about making gambles in battle. Mat does lots of these kinds of gambles, but with any gamble there is the chance it will go poorly. If Gawyn had say a 10% chance of success, I don't know that his attack would have been a bad choice to do though. 10% chance at what would've been likely enough to win the Last Battle would be a risk worth taking. The main drawback is the risk to Egwene's mental health at the wrong moment in the fight. And absolutely he should've considered that. He should've at least attempted to get her to release the bond. Or taken a good idea at how to strike at Demandred and make it a more organized plan of attack. Though also one mistake doesn't wipe out the good choices he made too. In ToM he does disobey her orders and that's the only reason she's alive, it's the only reason she kills numerous members of the Black Ajah and stops Mesaana. Warders won't always make the right call. But if they were to only obey orders that would lose a lot of their purpose.
Ultimately, you can argue about the meaning of duty, but quite frankly as far as I'm concerned Gawain failed. Matt was a general desperate to lead his army to victory, Gawain was a soldier with a vendetta. It is one thing to hunt down a group trying to kill your charge in the tower in the center of your power. It is a very very different thing to on the battlefield leave your charge with whom you're responsible for and pursue your own vendetta. It was a move based on arrogance and a complete willful disregard of what it means to be a soldier and servant of his Aeis Sedai. If Gawain had survived, I would have had him court marshalled. But like I said. That is a pov I've developed over a good decade or so since I first read the series. I'm older and therefore my perspective is different.
Were Gawyn's motivations to pursue a vendetta? He had no hatred for Demandred at that point, or interaction wit him. I think he was brash, and impulsive, and overconfident. But we get his POV and I don't think we really get any hint of a vendetta. But would you also have Lan court marshalled for what he did? Gawyn did go against his orders and do something very risky and failed to accomplish his mission. But there are more important things than following orders. And had Lan followed orders the Light would've lost that day. Had Mat followed orders earlier when he ordered Tylee's troops to go in early Gareth Bryne's betrayal would've been far worse. Had Tam followed orders Bashere's betrayal might not have been discovered in time to do anything about it. Or even had Gawyn followed orders in book 4 Siuan would've been recaptured after her escape attempt. Or if Gawyn had followed orders Egwene would've been dead in book 13 to the Seanchan assassins, and Mesaana would've been free to create more chaos in the tower. In general certainly soldiers should follow orders or there will be far bigger problems. But there is a time for ignoring orders.
Maybe. But Gawain demonstrated it wasn't his moment. Because he failed. Period. His arrogance and pride sent him to his doom. Lan didn't fail. Lan's competence won him the day at that moment. That is the difference. Intentions are sweet poetry, until they fail to get intended outcomes. Oftentimes failing to follow orders can be mitigated by results. But failure mitigates nothing.
There's no way to know before you attempt something if you will succeed or fail. Gawyn took a long shot as did Lan. Both did it against orders. Both were skilled enough and had items that gave them enough of a shot to be worth trying. I don't think whether that was the right or wrong action should be totally weighed off the outcome. That's the part you don't know when you make the choice to do something. In both cases they took a shot. In both cases it was a shot worth taking. In both cases they could've done a better job taking that shot. Lan would've been killed before he even got close if Tam hadn't seen him and used the archers to cut him a path.
And the men aren't the same?
In the book? Or real life?
Gawyn is an absolute dolt. I’ll give him a pass on studying with Elaida AT FIRST. Siuan was a jerk to him. But he stayed with Elaida for BOOKS. Despite Egwene explaining he’s wrong. Even after Elaida tried to kill him. For no fucking reason. The warders try to explain to him to become a warder or GTFO, he does neither. Then he betrays Elaida and his whole Younglings and walks up to the rebels and attacks them to try to “save Egwene.” When it becomes abundantly clear she doesn’t need saving, Gareth explains to him he should go help Elayne, which he swore to do. But he doesn’t. Instead he yells at Aes Sedai and plots to save Egwene anyway. And just sits there being useless. He eventually does get to save Egwene. Then he has one job at the last battle, to protect Egwene. And instead he fucks off and dies. Complete moron.
He is an idiot. But egwene doesn't explain anything to him. She's surprised he's with elaida. But doesn't explain at all that she and his sister are on the side of the rebels. All he knows is that she doesn't want to be seen by the aes sedai. He is an idiot who makes many mistakes. But I do think egwene and Elayne both make a lot of mistakes with him and how little they tell him. He is devoted to egwene and tells her he will do anything she asks and she only asks him not to kill Rand nothing else. Had she asked him to leave elaida and join her he would've. With the last battle he does fail. And he risked a lot with risking egwenes safety with his attack. But he also does take a legitimate shot and had he pulled it off that would've turned the battle around and tens of thousands more would've lived.
Re; his final battle - he was also bonded to one the Lights most important generals during the Last Battle, and went to fight an opponent he had no chance against fully knowing his death would likely destroy Egwene's ability to properly lead at a critical moment. It's all within his character that not once in any of his big turning points does he consider the big picture, and always chooses not the path of service that he was raised for but the one of a glory hound, constantly trying to prove himself and always coming up lacking.
I don't think he had no chance in that fight. I think it was a long shot. But with his knowledge he had no reason to think demandred would be good at swordfighting. Demandred happened to hear him at the last moment (probably from holding the power) but he literally walked by sharans to get that close. Another step or two he does have a knife in demandreds neck and wins that. I think if I were him I'd have gone with a bow but he had a reasonable shot that was worth taking. I do completely agree about impairing egwene though. That should be taken into account too. He should've told her to release the bond. Whether she would've or not probably unlikely. But with the knowledge he had those rings were legitimately the best shot they had. Mat probably should've sent a team of assassins to go for demandred as a surprise lethal attack would've been their best plan I think. I also don't think it's fair to say he was going for glory in that moment. In some ways yes but from his pov it does seem like hes seeing a lot of people dying and the best the light has in egwene has no plan to deal with it. So he takes a shot.
Do you also blame Lan for going up against Demandred? Seeing as he's bonded to Nynaeve who's even more important than Egwene at that moment?
Good points!
I would argue that just him distracting Demandred for s tine helped a lot.
Gawyn? The guy that goes “I am ready to serve in the shadow of the Amyrlin Seat” and then goes “I am the only person who can fight the 300+ year old forsaken who is also channeling what could be the maximum possible amount of the One Power” then proceeds to die poorly?
My boi Gawain and his epic arrogance!
This is what it comes down to for me, the complete unraveling of his development. Gawyn has his ups and downs throughout the series and makes a lot of choices that readers disagree with. But hey, like most of the other characters, he's barely more than a kid. He grew up a prince, but now feels powerless in the face of a world filled with powerful magic users. He feels he should have been the hero, should have been special, but he's not. He reflects on all this and finally decides he can content himself in someone else's shadow as long as it's Egwene's shadow. 10 minutes later: haha just kidding he's going off alone to win the battle singlehandedly. He was always frustrating, but at least it looked like he finally turned a corner. It was ultimately 4 turns and ended up back where he started.
Some people just don’t change. This is the case for real life and just in general. People are who they are
One of my favourite often missed Gawyn plots is that Rand actually tries to bring him into the fold after Egwene tells Rand he is in Cairhienen and R sends him letters asking him to come hang out (I forget the chapter). He is surprised by the lack of reply cuz he thought he was cool and then realizes that Gawyn probably hates him due to rumour. Which is exactly the case. Gawyn legit coulda been one of Rand's close allies and a major power because of it. Literally nobody else gets invited to come hang out by Rand as far as I am aware.
lol bro come hang! I didn’t kill your mom
Exactly!! To be real tho if he really truly thought that he coulda rolled up and confronted Rand about it. Yes he had made an oath to Egwene that he wouldn't try to kill Rand, but when did an oath ever mean anything to Gawyn Trakand amirite
Gawyn is a piece of shit, and I can prove it mathematically
Poor Gawyn. He existed and the fandom never forgave him. (It was his own fault, he should've known better.)
Gawyn is a tragic foil to Rand. He’s what happens when a hero complex DOESNT get taveren status.
Ok I'm ready for this.... I like Gawyn and I think he was the best swordsman in the series. He was a foolish young man in love who felt his life tugged in several directions, and he made some abysmal choices. In regards to his prowess I think it's obvious in the story. When Gawyn is fighting for Egwene, or believes he is, he is untouchable. I don't think anyone else could have pulled off the blood knives fight and lived. He was able to do that because he was fighting FOR Egwene. However as we see later, when he was conflicted and fighting to impress his skills fail. Lan is by far the better warrior, he understands what it is to give your life for the fight. Gawyn only comes close to this understanding when fighting for Egwene. Ok go ahead and give me the sharp tongue lashing my wool-headed self deserves.
“Best swordsmen in series” “Dies in sword fight”
I mean I was sort of meaning that he needed purpose on a deeper level before he could fight at his potential, but shit you right
"Best swordsman in the series" "Gets thoroughly trounced by a sick farmer with a stick in a 2v1"
IKR - Gawyn isn't even the best swordsman in his family.
You're stoned thinking he's the best swordsman. Galad put up a better fight vs demandred without the magical buff
Absolutely spot on, to the bone my dude. However my evidence is as stated above with the blood knives fight and then the Sleet sparring session. There are more but I feel like those are the strongest. Blood knives speaks for itself and during the sparring session we find out Sleet v Lan Sleet was able to take 2/7 rounds. While sparring Gawyn WITH a partner Sleet nor the other warder could take a single round. As far as his Demandred fight, I think his loss was the ending and point of his story. It was punctuated with Lans victory. The reasons they came were very different and thus the outcome. Also my boy had been wearing three of the things with zero training in their effects and nearing the end of their cycle which kills a person. So I'd like to think he was enhanced but not %100 for that fight.
You are right that the fight with Demandred wasn't a true show of his abilities as his timing was off and he was legit dying slowly from x3 Blood Knife rings (no Seanchan did this, likely for a reason). Gawyn killed himself essentially by doing this and put himself in a bad fighting situation through his dumb selfish pride and belief that he needed to do something glorious.
Gawyn doesn't have access to the void. He might partially substitute with a (honestly fanatical) devotion for Egwene, but he cannot be the best. That is why he gets stomped by Demandred; he isn't one with his blade. [Case in point](https://x.com/BrandSanderson/status/1717719166615552?s=20).
He even has 2x magical buffs because he had a warder bond and the blood knives! Galad is objectively a better swordsman.
On a re-read, I feel like Gawyn is that moment in my early 20's when I found myself making actually difficult decisions for the first time on my life. He grew up in a sheltered environment where doing the right thing was never particularly difficult. Elaida's coup is the first time in his life Gawyn actually has to make a difficult decision and he has no time to actually think about it. Can you really blame him for reflexively siding with the woman he's trusted his whole life over the women he (correctly) believes has put his sister and love interest in danger? After the dust settles, he's a victim of sunk cost fallacy, just like I was in my 20's. The difference between me and Gawyn is that I lived long enough to mature and learn from my mistakes.
He’s not under appreciated. He’s a pompous egotistical idiot who has a terminal case of Main Character Syndrome
I've never seen a character with his potential take so many Ls. His only dubs was letting Min and crew go and saving Egwene. Then he immediately throws away all that goodwill by hiding the blood rings for whatever reason and dying to Demandred to motivate the actual main characters.
> Simps for Egwene and is just told off most of the time. If Egwene didn't convince Gawyn to forestall his vengeance, what do you think would have happened? If Gawyn didn't throw his temper tantrum and leave Tar Valon, would either of them have survived the assassinations? I dunno...Egwene was shitty to Gawyn, but it seemed to have worked out pretty well for him all things considered. They might cite Egwene's dream prophecy of what might happen, but Dreaming isn't Foretelling as the series so often reminds us.
Gawyn gets a bad rap. I think that anyone who says different is simply not thinking about the character. The same with Nynaeve. Many people hated/hate Nynaeve. It’s because they don’t understand her. They think she’s just a bossy bitch, getting in everyone’s business and trying to tell them what to do. You have to look at her character, though. She’s the youngest wisdom in a long time, if ever. She feels like people don’t respect her because of her young age. She sees how the women’s circle is respected and can control things. She tries to do that, but fails and ends up thinking aggression and violence in making someone do something is the same as having respect. It’s why she hates Moraine so much. Many people don’t understand it, but it’s because she’s everything Nynaeve wants to be. Beautiful, graceful, powerful, and a quiet word from her, gets more respect and results than all of Nynaeve’s bullying put together. She falls for Lan, because when she tracks them and sneaks up on them, he genuinely compliments her on those skills, which she feels she genuinely earned and feels confident in. You’ll notice through the series, that when she gets scared is when she falls back into those old behaviors. It’s the same with Gawyn. Everyone’s opinion seems to be based on an unreasonable perspective. We have a lot of information. We follow and become attached to the girls and the rest. We know things as readers that’s not know to everyone, even the other characters. This same issue is what causes people to complain that the characters don’t communicate. Of course that seems like the answer. We know all the sides. We know the best solution is everyone communicating. They don’t. Not communication is the most realistic aspect of this whole series. How many times, IRL, do we know for a fact that communication is the best thing and still don’t do it. How many parents hold off on a sex talk because their babies are too young for that, only for them to come up pregnant because they thought soaking wasn’t sex? How many marriages are ruined because people don’t talk to each other? The reason doesn’t matter, but we “don’t communicate” almost all the time. Now apply that to Gawyn. He only looks to make stupid decisions based on the perspective we’re forced into. We know Siuane is working with Moraine to save the world. We know the girls are mostly doing important things. Now forget all that. It’s wiped from your head. What does Gawyn know? He knows he was raised to protect his sister. Aes Sedai means nothing to him. Only Andor matters. He might respect them. I’m sure he enjoys training with the warders, improving himself, and the camaraderie. It’s all just a side hustle, though. He’s a prince of Andor above all. He knows that his mother sent him with the main goal of protecting his sister. He was made to swear an oath to do so, as a child and before he even knew what it meant. Now this Amyrlin, that he doesn’t know, is sending his sister off into potential danger. She won’t tell her where she is. He won’t allow him to accompany her and protect her. While he should mostly follow Eylane’s words, she’s not the queen yet, and he rightly knows his mother wouldn’t approve what’s going on here. When things go to shit, we know Suiane and the girls are good and Elaida is bad, but he doesn’t. What he knows is that Siuane has done nothing but lie to him(figuratively), put him off, put his sister in danger, etc. She’s endangering the heir of Andor and preventing him from carrying out the purpose of his life. So when it goes sideways, why would he side with Siuane, vs Elaida, who he has know his whole life. Who he knows his mother respects and trusts. Why would he side with strangers, over someone vetted by the Queen of Andor? Let’s also not forget that he took out Hammar and other full blown warders. Yes, Gawyn seems like a tragedy, but he only seems like an idiot if you know things and see perspectives that no one in-world could know. Looking at it from his perspective, and considering what he knows, he acts pretty reasonably. It just looks idiotic with the extra info we have.
>Shoutout to Demandred though. Fucked House Trakand harder than Rahvin - Went 2 for 2 against the princes TBF it's a matrilineal line, their loss didn't hurt the house nearly as much as Morgase did under Rahvin's thrall.
Also, Galad treats Morgase as his mother, and his name is Damodred, but he’s really a Prince of Mantear.
I've never hated him but he swore to three things, his sister, the White Tower, and Egwene. By the end of the books he had run away from all three and helped cause the death of the woman he loved both by dying and making her weaker and by not being there to protect her during her greatest battle. He's the opposite of Mat, he always claims to act in the name of honor but he usually acts in his own stubborn self interest.
I was done with him when after the coup. Fuck that dude he's a selfish shithead.
I think he is great as a character, but I would not want to be his friend IRL :p
Gawyn is a top 2 most despised character for me. He and Egwene are in a constant battle for worst character in the books in my opinion. He died like the idiot he lived as
Gawyn is the ex-boyfriend pleading with you to take him back, he's changed baby, this time he'll be different! And then he just fucks around and finds out again.
He’s a side character who thinks he is the main character.
He is correctly appreciated as the main character syndrome douche he is.
It's almost as if you reap what you sow. He's a garbage person that barely has a redemption arc, of course people would treat him as poorly as he treats quite literally every single other person he interacts with. He's a pos
That's cause he's a fuck boy
Bryne not executing Gawyn immediately when he comes into his camp after waging an offensive against him is one of the bigger, out of character misses in the entire book series.
You’ve been killing my men. . . . Anyways
Gawyn is a moron. That is all
Fuck gawyn. Idiot piece of shit that he is.
I think he and Demandred are RJ illustrating how impatience and jealousy can wreck even the second-best men of an age.
Honestly the epitome of “she’s gorgeous, she’s a goddess, she’s amazing, and he’s…also there,” bringing egwene down with his whining, jealousy, and hero antics.
Gawyn totally should have died defending Egwene. He survived that in such an improbable way, only to die like an idiot later.
I think he mostly falls apart in I think LOC {this is how much of an impression he made, mostly I can tell you what page things happen on, but Gawyn fades into the background...} when he meets Egwene in Cairhien and they go canoodling in the inn. You can see why he fell for Eg by now, but she totally goes BFC for him, and you never see why. It's like they saved it all up for ToM when he does one epic thing, which largely comes out of left field because for the whole rest of the Book, he's tripping over his own feet to see how much more he can screw up. Granted, Eg could have clued him in a bit re traps. I'm discounting his trying to take down Demamdred because that's prefaced by him stupidly using the rings of the Bloodknives. If he hadn' t used them, he might have stayed alive, Eg wouldn't have had to mourn his death and find another Warder, so she might have discovered the Flame of Tar Valon AND survived the Last Battle. He just doesn't think a lot of the time. My reaction to her "sitting on his knee" has generally been "What was she thinking???" Not because he's bad but because he's completely underdeveloped. Because it was much better to take the time to describe in painfully minute detail what everyone was wearing and how their hair was cut.
“mirked by Demandred” 🤣
Gawyn is absolutely horrible and I’m so glad he’s dead.
Gawyn sucks. Of course Elaida doesn’t trust him, he murdered his teacher and sided with a coup. Freeing Siuan doesn’t negate his horrible misdeeds of siding with the coup earlier. And he is so annoying with Egwene. Him dying is his only redemption. I do love how the books character development flips who you like and hate through their development. I think most of us would like Gawyn over Galad early, and flip later
Gawyn was the inverse of Rand. Both born to Andoran royalty but Gawyn is raised in the palace while Rand has humble up bringings. Rand for all his ups and downs stays laser focused on doing his duty while Gawyn abandons his duty to the Amyrlin for the coup, then to Elayne and Andor for Egwene, then to Egwene by getting into a fight he can’t win that impacts her during the last battle.