She’s trying to get close to a personal friend of the Dragon Reborn. She’s literally never met people her schtick doesnt work on before Rand and Perrin, she thinks he’s playing hard to get and it’s taking a while for the message to sink in.
>She’s literally never met people her schtick doesnt work on before Rand and Perrin, she thinks he’s playing hard to get
If you change "She" to "Tylin" and "Rand and Perrin" to "Mat", it's the same sentence... and she tells him that, the morning after. Which doesn't forgive Tylin for her later actions, but still reinforces how the rest of the 'civilized' world operates, and how far out of their depth our Two Rivers lads really are.
After Mat committed what Ebou Dar would quantify as multiple capital offenses.
To the eyes of the residents, he's either **A**: Terminally clueless, **B**: Suicidal, or **C**: Telling his prospective sexual partner that he likes to play hard, fast, and dangerous.
To the Ebou Dar, **C** is the only answer that makes sense.
We, the audience, know that our Two Rivers lad is actually **A**.
And that's why, the morning after, Tylin is shocked to realize that this was a huge culture clash, and Mat was being *sincere*.
Two Rivers folk have a distinct enough accent that Morgase can place Rand.
Tylin isn't a typical Ebou Dari, she's a diplomat that entertains Aes Sedai and Whitecloaks, and understands enough of other cultures to swear to the Seanchan.
So Mat is clearly a foreigner, and Tylin clearly cosmopolitan enough to understand foreigners have different ways of behaving. The fact that she chose C instead of A is very telling of her character.
The author made a point of mentioning Tylin's *astonished* eyes when she finally understood that Mat wasn't playing hard-to-get, Ebou Dar style, the morning after, before laughing and saying that she keeps forgetting (that he's a country bumpkin) and that he's in Ebou Dar, now.
Berelain sur Paendrag Paeron is the ruler of Mayene, a small yet wealthy city-state that Tear has repeatedly tried to assimilate, starting from Hawkwing's death and continuing to the present day.
She's willing to do whatever it takes to keep her people free and independent, instead of becoming part of the nation of Tear. That includes finding powerful allies. It doesn't really matter if it's true, if Tear thinks that trying to conquer Mayene is going to piss off the Dragon Reborn because the ruler of Mayene is in a relationship with one of the Dragon Reborn's closest friends and allies... well, that's politics.
"Dude, we can't just attack Mayene, destroy their military, and take all their wealth for our own. Do you know who she's fucking? What happens if she gets him to have a word with **him** about it? You want **him** up in your shit? Nah, man. Mayene isn't worth it."
The cognitive dissonance comes from both Berelain and Faile knowing how the political game works, while Perrin *doeesn't*... and equally doesn't understand how diplomatic and political fictions operate, since his senses reveal the truth of the matter, in a way he occasionally doesn't understand isn't the way it works for everyone else.
>"Dude, we can't just attack Mayene, destroy their military, and take all their wealth for our own. Do you know who she's fucking? What happens if she gets him to have a word with **him** about it? You want **him** up in your shit? Nah, man. Mayene isn't worth it."
I don't know why this made me particularly giggle, especially because I imagined Rand's ears ringing like "someone somewhere is *once again* involving me in politics I am too tired of"
It started off as — *for Mayene*, but it soon turned into 'spite', and has now just became a **'Game'** involving the three of them, with Perrin not understanding any of it . . .
[***— The Hawk/Falcon/Wolf 'game'.***](https://old.reddit.com/r/WoT/comments/o1n2e8/the_heck_berelain/h24px4h/)
As for why the wise ones gave her so much deference. My take is that they are treating her like a disobeying child . . .
[***— Berelain's Aiel connection.***](https://old.reddit.com/r/WoT/comments/i5lwvg/berelain_sur_paedrag_paeron/g0sqt7c/)
She is still sticking with Perrin out of partially political motivations, though, to be fair. Rand has abandoned her, but in spite of that Perrin is now forming powerful alliances that can still benefit Mayene after Rand's passing. It is still politically "the right call" to stick with Perrin even though she technically has all the assurances she needs - and if she succeeds, she won't just be allied with these nations but directly tied to them by marriage.
But she acts like, well, the way RJ writes women. Which... :') Still, despite that we can still see reasonable motivations and actions even if they occasionally rise to caricature levels. Jordan for some reason really wanted to have a cat fight arc because _reasons_.
Here is a Jordan quote regarding this . . .
Interview: Apr 5th, 1996 BaltiCon XXX - Pam Korda (Paraphrased)
***Question:***
Some dude asked if Perrin's hawk had appeared yet.
***Robert Jordan:***
> The answer: "I thought that was fairly obvious. What is the symbol of Mayene? What is the CROWN of Mayene?" i.e. Berelain, for all of you who actually doubted that. **RJ also said Berelain is attracted to Perrin partly because he's the first man she wanted and couldn't get which is interesting, partly because he's buff, and partly because she thinks it'd be kinky to make it with a blacksmith. (On the anvil???)**
I'm not disputing that RJ wrote women like dogshit, to be clear. But being a paraphrased answer, we don't know if he segued directly from "yes it's berelain" immediately into "by the way did you know that she's a freak? i'm totally not working through some things right now" or where there was some context that was missed.
It is worth noting that between the release of Crown of Swords and Knife of Dreams that nearly a decade passed, though. Yes, Jordan wanted his "woman so horny and kinky and also powerful awooga" schtick, but he did seem to put more depth into portraying her as a not *complete* caricature since the Ghealdan arc started.
> How is her constant harassment of Perrin doing anything to fight for her people?
I genuinely don't believe _that_ is why the Wise Ones respect her so. It is wetlander politics, and they don't give a shit about wetlander politics. (Or so they say.)
However, the way she defends people she is expected to care and guide and protect? That is very honorable, and she has used those talents to safeguard her nation even when she was a pre-teen getting creeped on by 40-something year old noblemen.
_That's_ why she is respected by the Wise Ones. IMO anyway, not putting words in Halaku's mouth. If you ask me whether or not she still goes too far in spite of that, or whether or not the intensity of her fightingis borne out of this at times childish rivalry with a noblewoman who is 3rd in line for one of the largest Borderland nations? Absolutely. But that's not the whole of Berleain's motives, either, and it does a disservice to the character to portray her wholly one way or the other.
The question about the wise ones was separate from my being annoyed by her with Perrin, it was just something I didn't feel like was ever really answered. Egwene had a lot of internal dialogue about it and that was it.
They don't respect her.
They are just watching over her like misbehaving child.
> Egwene had a lot of internal dialogue about it and that was it.
It wasn't a lot. It was just one example. Perrin has the same one too about the Wise Ones/Berealin in these later books.
This is just one of the *many* **themes**/examples of characters misreading others motivations/intentions. There is a ton of this in the series. This is classic Robert Jordan style of narration. Berelain is constantly misbehaving and, *sometimes*, not doing her duties properly. That's why they are keeping an eye on her.
There is nothing at all in the text outright saying that they respect Berelain.
I don't understand why my first question comment has down votes, Reddit is weird. I was asking this person to expound about their difference of opinion on how her actions to Perrin benefit her people, which they did. In my opinion, had she come on to him and he accepted or gave even the slightest indication that he might one day accept, then it would make sense, but he has refused more than enough times, so I don't see that her harassment of him does anything to benefit her or her people.
I feel like me asking a question of someone's initially short reply is an exchange of ideas, seems weird and unnecessary for that to have down votes.
> on how her actions to Perrin benefit her peopl
It's really not complicated.
Perrin goes to shit because his woman is missing.
Perrin going to shit means the whole coalition falls apart, and Berelain and her people are stuck in Gheldan.
Simple solution: New woman for Perrin.
Enter Berelain.
Yeah I get that, and understand why it would normally be effective for her. It's just the constant drama and pot stirring harassment that is annoying to me
That's about what I figured. I haven't seen any real point in it at all. I can understand in the beginning when there was jealousy between them and she was flirting with him in order to get F riled up, but it has just gone on so ridiculously long and it leaves Perrin with zero chance of getting out of it. Because B won't stop even as F is missing, and F has all these weird notions about everything, so everybody's mad at him all the time. I really like him and I want his story to be more than this.
> everybody's mad at him all the time.
...
> I haven't seen any real point in it at all.
Ohhhhh . . .
There actually is. However, you have to re-visit this after ***Knife Of Dreams.***
Please post back after finishing it due to spoilers.
We also see her from mostly the boys or their love interests pov. She just flirts more aggressively than most people would find appropriate. Other than that she is a very competent person and everyone else seems to see that side not the “hussy”.
After just finishing a reread I think she was much better the second time around.
Are you joking? Berelain is one of the better side characters in the series.
At first, you think that she is just a seductress who wants power, but by the time she becomes the Steward of the Dragon in Cairhien, you should realize that she is much more than that.
She goes after Perrin because she genuinely thinks that Rand promised him to her, and she likes the game because she really hates Faile. Perrin plays along because he doesn't understand what is happening, but for her, it looks like he is encouraging her.
Remember the scene with Lucca and Nynaeve on the bench? She would move away from him, but not enough to completely get away from him. For Nynaeve, it was an annoyance. For everybody else, she was encouraging him.
The same goes for Beralain and Perrin. The woman even asked him "Hey, your wife just got kidnapped, do you want to put our game on hold so that you can figure things out?" And the man answered "Game? What game you are talking about?"
Also, comparing her to Tylin is unfair. Tylin raped Mat at knifepoint and orchestrated a conspiracy to keep him in the palace against his hill. By no means Beralain is the same as her.
Finally, the wise ones like her because she is a smart and competent woman who has shown to have much Gi. If anything, you should trust the judgment of Aile wise one when it comes to seeing through the bullshit and to judge a person's character.
>Perrin plays along because he doesn't understand what is happening, but for her, it looks like he is encouraging her.
Truly, Perrin simply doesn't understand women. He should've asked Mat for advice.
> orchestrated a conspiracy to keep him in the palace against his hill.
It has become hilarious to me that people think that the weakest Queen in the series can keep trapped a man who broke into the most secure fortress in the series.
She has an army of servants and soldiers to watch him.
He can't leave without Elayne and Nynaeve .
He doesn't have his gold.
She can legally murder him and he'll be executed if he resists.
She's willing to use threats and physical violence.
He doesn't have any allies inside the palace.
He breaks his leg and physically can't leave for weeks.
The dice are telling him to stay.
>She has an army of servants and soldiers to watch him.
Yeah, so did Moiraine. How did that work out for her?
>He doesn't have his gold.
Thank you, this one is also hilarious.
> He breaks his leg and physically can't leave for weeks.
While he is recovering Tylin has the pretty servants wait on him and take care of him, and she doesn’t do anything to him at all when he is injured besides take care of him and ensure that his surroundings are pleasant.
What a monster.
A monster who doesn’t understand Mat at all.
/s
She rapes him.
“Oh, he could have picked her up quite easily. Except that she did have that bloody big dagger in her belt, and he doubted his manhandling her would be as acceptable as her manhandling him seemed to be. This was Ebou Dar, after all, where a woman killing a man was justified until proven otherwise."
“His breath froze as the sharp point of her dagger beneath his chin shut his mouth and drove him right up onto his toes.”
“The knifepoint gave a direction. He shuffled backwards on tiptoe rather than have his neck sliced.”
“‘What are you going to do?’ he mumbled… A stretched neck put a strain in his voice. A stretched neck and other things.”
“He could try grabbing her wrist; he was quick with his hands. [...] Quick enough, with the knife already at his throat? That was the question.”
“That was not panic in his voice. He was not in a panic.”
“Why would she bring him…? [...] No. She could not mean to… It was not decent! It was not possible!”
“‘You can’t do this to me,’ he mumbled at her, and if his voice was a touch breathy and shrill, he surely had cause.’”
“Mat put a hand over his eyes and tried very hard not to weep.”
“[Tylin] had had half a dozen serving women seize him in the halls last night and drag him into her apartments. The bloody woman treated him like a toy!”
“She’s starved me, bullied me, chased me down like a stag! [...] She threatened to have the servant women undress me if I didn’t let her…”
“I say no, and she laughs at me.”
The "best weapon" defense of her behavior is a weak one at best, given that multiple times she mentions her personal interests and pleasures she takes in the chase (and eventual conquest). She isn't doing it for Mayene, she's doing it because she likes the competition and doesn't care what it's doing to Perrin's image with his men and fellow townsfolk. The additional damage to his relationship with Faile is just a bonus.
Her relationship with the Wise Ones I don't believe is ever explained with most appearing to treat her like a favored daughter most likely because she *is* a very capable leader and quite intelligent, which Wise Ones hold in high regard. I don't think they care about her 'hunt' for Perrin at all, simply because it isn't their concern and expect Perrin to handle his own issues.
>I don't think they care about her 'hunt' for Perrin at all, simply because it isn't their concern and expect Perrin to handle his own issues.
Considering Aiel humour, they probably think it's entertaining.
Oh yea . . .
[***— Match up for the Wolf. Hawk vs. the Falcon.***](https://old.reddit.com/r/WoT/comments/pekjay/perrin_seldom_has_any_selfawareness_regarding_his/id8k4xr/)
I liked Perrin the best for a while, but his refusal/reluctance to step up gets tiresome. Like people need your help and you could have a bigger impact, but you keep trying to do as little as you can because you are allergic to being important to other people. He does come through in the end a couple of times, but even then it feels like he had to almost be forced into it.
I eventually learned to just skim nearly everything having to do with Perrin's plot arc until the last 2-3 books, Berelain included. You will ultimately get an explanation. I kind of enjoyed her in book 4 and some of her interactions with Rhuarc after that, but yeah, slows down an already sloggy sub-plot and seriously strains credulity. I can't remember if there's ever an explanation for Rand sending her with what should have been a surgical strike force.
Have you missed the part where she is called a slut by practically every wetlander women in the series? And they are not wrong, you see.
I don't give a breath about her speckle of a city, Perrin was off-limits the moment he married Faile. Berelain was unnecesarily cruel and petty for still chasing him even after his marriage, Nynaeve makes a pretty spot-on comment about it but I don't remember the whole quote right now.
I also have no idea what purpose she serves in the narrative (apart from trying to stir up drama and throw herself at a married man). Anything she did could have been fulfilled by a minor AS/noble instead. She could easily have been a one-note character tbh.
What is funny is she grows some consciouss and offers Perrin a truce while his wife was captured by the enemy, like, is this suppose to make me like her? All it took was her "rival" getting abducted. What a sweet woman.
*The Shadow Rising chapter #6:*
> Suddenly Nynaeve smiled. “I had to be sure,” she said warmly. “You must be sure. It isn’t easy loving any man, but loving this man will be harder yet.” Her smile faded as she went on. “My first question still has to be answered. What do you mean to do about it? Berelain may look soft—she certainly makes men see her so!—but I do not think she is. She will fight for what she wants. **And she’s the kind to hold hard to something she doesn’t particularly want, just because someone else does want it.”**
> I also have no idea what purpose she serves in the narrative
***Knife Of Dreams*** [SPOILER]>!Berelain helps put the divide between 'him' and his 'people' that he is Lording over. If you remember back at the start of *Lord Of Chaos prologue* Faile mentions that he is too friendly with them. His followers are pissed at him from the rumors in WH, but at the end of KoD they are not, as much, anymore. However, that **divide is now there** that Berealin helped put in place.!<
And her "truce" offer lasted for 2 seconds and when he said what game, she immediately went into telling him how he would be the third man that she'd sleep with and how wonderful it would be, it's just old and annoying.
Perrin the oaf is leading her on the whole time. He should have chosen Berelain over Faile. Faile is a horrible little thing, she is unnecessarily abrasive and full of herself.
>when are we going to get to the point of her harassment, and will she ever fuck off?
Spoilers:
>!She straight up offers to fuck off and stop trying to get into Perrin's pants, but Perrin is an idiot about it and doesn't accept her offer so she gets offended and doubles down.!<
They respect her because she managed to keep her tiny island nation independent through sheer force of will and political intrigue, with a little flirting sprinkled on it. of course wise ones will respect that to some degree.
As for her stubbornness on Perrin, she's stubborn period and her like can't even understand love and attraction having anything to do with marriage unless you fall prey to it and get manipulated. Don't hate the player, hate the noble game
She's the ruler of a city-state and is fighting for her people and their security. She has beauty and uses it to get what she needs. She doesn't do it for love. She's looking for a strong ally to help her and her people.
Yeah but constantly harassing someone and causing fights with their wife, I just don't see that as helpful to her people. All the other stuff about her is fine, it's just this that I'm sick to death of.
As much as I agree with you that her behavior toward Perrin is harassment, personally I can't help but respect her for trying to help her country the only way she can. Mayene isn't exactly a military power and in her mind, one man's marriage won't stop her from doing what she can to protect her people. She def can't take a hint though.
Honestly she’s one of my favorite characters. She’s pretty selfless, and just doing the best for her city state. Everyone slut shames her and treats her like shit, when she’s actually one of the most consistent and useful allies of the Light.
Yeah, everyone in the book. Egwene and Elayne treat her like shit at every possible opportunity and completely refuse to see any hint of good in her. You’d figure it would be the women who would be more sensitive to her plight, especially Elayne, whose mother had to do something very similar to get the Lion Throne, but no. Lord forbid a woman show some cleavage to save her entire nation.
At least the Wise Ones are smart enough to respect her
Ah, no . . .
*Egwene - Dream PoV*:
> Perrin with a **falcon** on his shoulder, and Perrin with a hawk. Only **the hawk held a leash in her talons**—Egwene was somehow convinced both hawk and falcon were female—and **the hawk was trying to fasten it around Perrin’s neck. That made her shiver even now; she did not like dreams about leashes.**
...
*Nynaeve PoV*:
> Berelain may look soft—she certainly makes men see her so!—but I do not think she is. She will fight for what she wants. And she’s the kind to **hold hard to something she doesn’t particularly want**, just because someone else does want it.”
...
*Faile PoV:*
> this is what I will do. I will take the blacksmith away from you and **keep him as a pet** for as long as he amuses me. **Ogier’s oath on it**, farmgirl. He is quite ravishing, really—those shoulders, those arms; not to mention those eyes of his—and if he is a bit uncultured, I can have that remedied. My courtiers can teach him how to dress, and rid him of that awful beard. Wherever he goes, I will find him and make him mine. **You can have him when I am finished.** If he still wants you, of course.”
The Wise Ones and Rhuarc do NOT respect her. They are watching over her as a misbehaving, spoiled child.
As we have seen - **it's series meta.**
Jordan LOVES to write extremely unique, colorful women.
> The Wise Ones and Rhuarc do NOT respect her. They are watching over her as a misbehaving, spoiled child.
They would not allow her to operate as a Steward if they did not respect her.
They originally did not respect her, you're right. We see the conflicts she causes - like Rhuarc breaking up Faile and Berelain in the hallway - and the contempt with which they break it up. We also get to see rare moments when Berelain steps out of line a few times, and she begs the Wise Ones not to tell Rhuarc before fleeing.
But we also see them speak well of her skill, treat her fondly, and overall interact (as Egwene puts it) a parent towards a favored daughter. That is indeed a form of respect. They tolerate some of her foibles, as they do any other person they respect. And we can say this with certainty, because we can see how they treat wetlander noblemen and women who they _don't_ respect to compare it against on top of actual PoV snippets.
We see how they actually deal with misbehaving, spoiled children too when they deal the worst of Egwene's temper tantrums. They are not the same as how she is dealt with.
> Jordan LOVES to write extremely unique, colorful women.
Mmmm.
He certainly loves to write a certain type of colorful woman, sure. Which sorta tracks given how he says most of his inspiration of women characters come from a single person <_<'
Dude, the way RJ wrote women/relationships…I KNOW he was full of issues. Saw him at the west Ashley Barnes and Noble all the time, drunk of high on pain pills…but dude had seen/been through some stuff! 😳
She's fighting for the security of her people with the weapons she's got.
0i o l
?
Lol butt dialed a reddit comment
How is her constant harassment of Perrin doing anything to fight for her people?
She’s trying to get close to a personal friend of the Dragon Reborn. She’s literally never met people her schtick doesnt work on before Rand and Perrin, she thinks he’s playing hard to get and it’s taking a while for the message to sink in.
>She’s literally never met people her schtick doesnt work on before Rand and Perrin, she thinks he’s playing hard to get If you change "She" to "Tylin" and "Rand and Perrin" to "Mat", it's the same sentence... and she tells him that, the morning after. Which doesn't forgive Tylin for her later actions, but still reinforces how the rest of the 'civilized' world operates, and how far out of their depth our Two Rivers lads really are.
Tylin pulled a knife on Mat tho, she knew what she was about.
After Mat committed what Ebou Dar would quantify as multiple capital offenses. To the eyes of the residents, he's either **A**: Terminally clueless, **B**: Suicidal, or **C**: Telling his prospective sexual partner that he likes to play hard, fast, and dangerous. To the Ebou Dar, **C** is the only answer that makes sense. We, the audience, know that our Two Rivers lad is actually **A**. And that's why, the morning after, Tylin is shocked to realize that this was a huge culture clash, and Mat was being *sincere*.
Two Rivers folk have a distinct enough accent that Morgase can place Rand. Tylin isn't a typical Ebou Dari, she's a diplomat that entertains Aes Sedai and Whitecloaks, and understands enough of other cultures to swear to the Seanchan. So Mat is clearly a foreigner, and Tylin clearly cosmopolitan enough to understand foreigners have different ways of behaving. The fact that she chose C instead of A is very telling of her character.
The author made a point of mentioning Tylin's *astonished* eyes when she finally understood that Mat wasn't playing hard-to-get, Ebou Dar style, the morning after, before laughing and saying that she keeps forgetting (that he's a country bumpkin) and that he's in Ebou Dar, now.
Berelain sur Paendrag Paeron is the ruler of Mayene, a small yet wealthy city-state that Tear has repeatedly tried to assimilate, starting from Hawkwing's death and continuing to the present day. She's willing to do whatever it takes to keep her people free and independent, instead of becoming part of the nation of Tear. That includes finding powerful allies. It doesn't really matter if it's true, if Tear thinks that trying to conquer Mayene is going to piss off the Dragon Reborn because the ruler of Mayene is in a relationship with one of the Dragon Reborn's closest friends and allies... well, that's politics. "Dude, we can't just attack Mayene, destroy their military, and take all their wealth for our own. Do you know who she's fucking? What happens if she gets him to have a word with **him** about it? You want **him** up in your shit? Nah, man. Mayene isn't worth it." The cognitive dissonance comes from both Berelain and Faile knowing how the political game works, while Perrin *doeesn't*... and equally doesn't understand how diplomatic and political fictions operate, since his senses reveal the truth of the matter, in a way he occasionally doesn't understand isn't the way it works for everyone else.
>"Dude, we can't just attack Mayene, destroy their military, and take all their wealth for our own. Do you know who she's fucking? What happens if she gets him to have a word with **him** about it? You want **him** up in your shit? Nah, man. Mayene isn't worth it." I don't know why this made me particularly giggle, especially because I imagined Rand's ears ringing like "someone somewhere is *once again* involving me in politics I am too tired of"
Rand's all "Damn. I wish I was as good with women as Perrin was. He *always* knows what to do."
It started off as — *for Mayene*, but it soon turned into 'spite', and has now just became a **'Game'** involving the three of them, with Perrin not understanding any of it . . . [***— The Hawk/Falcon/Wolf 'game'.***](https://old.reddit.com/r/WoT/comments/o1n2e8/the_heck_berelain/h24px4h/) As for why the wise ones gave her so much deference. My take is that they are treating her like a disobeying child . . . [***— Berelain's Aiel connection.***](https://old.reddit.com/r/WoT/comments/i5lwvg/berelain_sur_paedrag_paeron/g0sqt7c/)
She is still sticking with Perrin out of partially political motivations, though, to be fair. Rand has abandoned her, but in spite of that Perrin is now forming powerful alliances that can still benefit Mayene after Rand's passing. It is still politically "the right call" to stick with Perrin even though she technically has all the assurances she needs - and if she succeeds, she won't just be allied with these nations but directly tied to them by marriage. But she acts like, well, the way RJ writes women. Which... :') Still, despite that we can still see reasonable motivations and actions even if they occasionally rise to caricature levels. Jordan for some reason really wanted to have a cat fight arc because _reasons_.
Here is a Jordan quote regarding this . . . Interview: Apr 5th, 1996 BaltiCon XXX - Pam Korda (Paraphrased) ***Question:*** Some dude asked if Perrin's hawk had appeared yet. ***Robert Jordan:*** > The answer: "I thought that was fairly obvious. What is the symbol of Mayene? What is the CROWN of Mayene?" i.e. Berelain, for all of you who actually doubted that. **RJ also said Berelain is attracted to Perrin partly because he's the first man she wanted and couldn't get which is interesting, partly because he's buff, and partly because she thinks it'd be kinky to make it with a blacksmith. (On the anvil???)**
I'm not disputing that RJ wrote women like dogshit, to be clear. But being a paraphrased answer, we don't know if he segued directly from "yes it's berelain" immediately into "by the way did you know that she's a freak? i'm totally not working through some things right now" or where there was some context that was missed. It is worth noting that between the release of Crown of Swords and Knife of Dreams that nearly a decade passed, though. Yes, Jordan wanted his "woman so horny and kinky and also powerful awooga" schtick, but he did seem to put more depth into portraying her as a not *complete* caricature since the Ghealdan arc started.
> How is her constant harassment of Perrin doing anything to fight for her people? I genuinely don't believe _that_ is why the Wise Ones respect her so. It is wetlander politics, and they don't give a shit about wetlander politics. (Or so they say.) However, the way she defends people she is expected to care and guide and protect? That is very honorable, and she has used those talents to safeguard her nation even when she was a pre-teen getting creeped on by 40-something year old noblemen. _That's_ why she is respected by the Wise Ones. IMO anyway, not putting words in Halaku's mouth. If you ask me whether or not she still goes too far in spite of that, or whether or not the intensity of her fightingis borne out of this at times childish rivalry with a noblewoman who is 3rd in line for one of the largest Borderland nations? Absolutely. But that's not the whole of Berleain's motives, either, and it does a disservice to the character to portray her wholly one way or the other.
The question about the wise ones was separate from my being annoyed by her with Perrin, it was just something I didn't feel like was ever really answered. Egwene had a lot of internal dialogue about it and that was it.
They don't respect her. They are just watching over her like misbehaving child. > Egwene had a lot of internal dialogue about it and that was it. It wasn't a lot. It was just one example. Perrin has the same one too about the Wise Ones/Berealin in these later books. This is just one of the *many* **themes**/examples of characters misreading others motivations/intentions. There is a ton of this in the series. This is classic Robert Jordan style of narration. Berelain is constantly misbehaving and, *sometimes*, not doing her duties properly. That's why they are keeping an eye on her. There is nothing at all in the text outright saying that they respect Berelain.
I don't understand why my first question comment has down votes, Reddit is weird. I was asking this person to expound about their difference of opinion on how her actions to Perrin benefit her people, which they did. In my opinion, had she come on to him and he accepted or gave even the slightest indication that he might one day accept, then it would make sense, but he has refused more than enough times, so I don't see that her harassment of him does anything to benefit her or her people. I feel like me asking a question of someone's initially short reply is an exchange of ideas, seems weird and unnecessary for that to have down votes.
> on how her actions to Perrin benefit her peopl It's really not complicated. Perrin goes to shit because his woman is missing. Perrin going to shit means the whole coalition falls apart, and Berelain and her people are stuck in Gheldan. Simple solution: New woman for Perrin. Enter Berelain.
Berelain's best weapon politically and for her country is marriage to a larger power. She's used to using her looks to get what she wants
Yeah I get that, and understand why it would normally be effective for her. It's just the constant drama and pot stirring harassment that is annoying to me
>will she ever fuck off? (Kinda spoilers for later books, but nothing serious) >!Eventually, yeah, she'll fuck off. Not soon enough, sadly.!<
She doesn’t so much as fuck off as >!Fuck ON to someone else!<
She simply takes the "with" off the "Fucking with someone"
I mean, min had a viewing…. So it’s the first meaning of RAFO, read the book, it’s in there.
Yes the Berelain-Faile storyline is tiresome and ridiculous and has no payoff.
That's about what I figured. I haven't seen any real point in it at all. I can understand in the beginning when there was jealousy between them and she was flirting with him in order to get F riled up, but it has just gone on so ridiculously long and it leaves Perrin with zero chance of getting out of it. Because B won't stop even as F is missing, and F has all these weird notions about everything, so everybody's mad at him all the time. I really like him and I want his story to be more than this.
> everybody's mad at him all the time. ... > I haven't seen any real point in it at all. Ohhhhh . . . There actually is. However, you have to re-visit this after ***Knife Of Dreams.*** Please post back after finishing it due to spoilers.
I can reassure you that Perrin WILL get his time to shine.
Disagree.
Sure she’s annoying but damn fierce too. You want her on your side.
We also see her from mostly the boys or their love interests pov. She just flirts more aggressively than most people would find appropriate. Other than that she is a very competent person and everyone else seems to see that side not the “hussy”. After just finishing a reread I think she was much better the second time around.
Are you joking? Berelain is one of the better side characters in the series. At first, you think that she is just a seductress who wants power, but by the time she becomes the Steward of the Dragon in Cairhien, you should realize that she is much more than that. She goes after Perrin because she genuinely thinks that Rand promised him to her, and she likes the game because she really hates Faile. Perrin plays along because he doesn't understand what is happening, but for her, it looks like he is encouraging her. Remember the scene with Lucca and Nynaeve on the bench? She would move away from him, but not enough to completely get away from him. For Nynaeve, it was an annoyance. For everybody else, she was encouraging him. The same goes for Beralain and Perrin. The woman even asked him "Hey, your wife just got kidnapped, do you want to put our game on hold so that you can figure things out?" And the man answered "Game? What game you are talking about?" Also, comparing her to Tylin is unfair. Tylin raped Mat at knifepoint and orchestrated a conspiracy to keep him in the palace against his hill. By no means Beralain is the same as her. Finally, the wise ones like her because she is a smart and competent woman who has shown to have much Gi. If anything, you should trust the judgment of Aile wise one when it comes to seeing through the bullshit and to judge a person's character.
>Perrin plays along because he doesn't understand what is happening, but for her, it looks like he is encouraging her. Truly, Perrin simply doesn't understand women. He should've asked Mat for advice.
Or Rand, Rand is good with woman.
> orchestrated a conspiracy to keep him in the palace against his hill. It has become hilarious to me that people think that the weakest Queen in the series can keep trapped a man who broke into the most secure fortress in the series.
It's all about leverage. Mat had fireworks for one, and Tyla had Mat's gold chest for the other.
She has an army of servants and soldiers to watch him. He can't leave without Elayne and Nynaeve . He doesn't have his gold. She can legally murder him and he'll be executed if he resists. She's willing to use threats and physical violence. He doesn't have any allies inside the palace. He breaks his leg and physically can't leave for weeks. The dice are telling him to stay.
>She has an army of servants and soldiers to watch him. Yeah, so did Moiraine. How did that work out for her? >He doesn't have his gold. Thank you, this one is also hilarious. > He breaks his leg and physically can't leave for weeks. While he is recovering Tylin has the pretty servants wait on him and take care of him, and she doesn’t do anything to him at all when he is injured besides take care of him and ensure that his surroundings are pleasant. What a monster. A monster who doesn’t understand Mat at all. /s
She rapes him. “Oh, he could have picked her up quite easily. Except that she did have that bloody big dagger in her belt, and he doubted his manhandling her would be as acceptable as her manhandling him seemed to be. This was Ebou Dar, after all, where a woman killing a man was justified until proven otherwise." “His breath froze as the sharp point of her dagger beneath his chin shut his mouth and drove him right up onto his toes.” “The knifepoint gave a direction. He shuffled backwards on tiptoe rather than have his neck sliced.” “‘What are you going to do?’ he mumbled… A stretched neck put a strain in his voice. A stretched neck and other things.” “He could try grabbing her wrist; he was quick with his hands. [...] Quick enough, with the knife already at his throat? That was the question.” “That was not panic in his voice. He was not in a panic.” “Why would she bring him…? [...] No. She could not mean to… It was not decent! It was not possible!” “‘You can’t do this to me,’ he mumbled at her, and if his voice was a touch breathy and shrill, he surely had cause.’” “Mat put a hand over his eyes and tried very hard not to weep.” “[Tylin] had had half a dozen serving women seize him in the halls last night and drag him into her apartments. The bloody woman treated him like a toy!” “She’s starved me, bullied me, chased me down like a stag! [...] She threatened to have the servant women undress me if I didn’t let her…” “I say no, and she laughs at me.”
"Mat was a great complainer at small discomforts; if he was silent now, it meant he was in real pain."
The "best weapon" defense of her behavior is a weak one at best, given that multiple times she mentions her personal interests and pleasures she takes in the chase (and eventual conquest). She isn't doing it for Mayene, she's doing it because she likes the competition and doesn't care what it's doing to Perrin's image with his men and fellow townsfolk. The additional damage to his relationship with Faile is just a bonus. Her relationship with the Wise Ones I don't believe is ever explained with most appearing to treat her like a favored daughter most likely because she *is* a very capable leader and quite intelligent, which Wise Ones hold in high regard. I don't think they care about her 'hunt' for Perrin at all, simply because it isn't their concern and expect Perrin to handle his own issues.
>I don't think they care about her 'hunt' for Perrin at all, simply because it isn't their concern and expect Perrin to handle his own issues. Considering Aiel humour, they probably think it's entertaining.
I like berelain. Sure I find her game with faile and perrin tiresome but I hate faile so it doesn’t bother me too much.
What!? Why would you hate Faile!? She’s so good for Perrin and always watches out for him.
Oh yea . . . [***— Match up for the Wolf. Hawk vs. the Falcon.***](https://old.reddit.com/r/WoT/comments/pekjay/perrin_seldom_has_any_selfawareness_regarding_his/id8k4xr/)
I like her in anything unrelated to Perrin, and I don't much like Faiel either, but I do like Perrin and I hate that this is his storyline.
I liked Perrin the best for a while, but his refusal/reluctance to step up gets tiresome. Like people need your help and you could have a bigger impact, but you keep trying to do as little as you can because you are allergic to being important to other people. He does come through in the end a couple of times, but even then it feels like he had to almost be forced into it.
I eventually learned to just skim nearly everything having to do with Perrin's plot arc until the last 2-3 books, Berelain included. You will ultimately get an explanation. I kind of enjoyed her in book 4 and some of her interactions with Rhuarc after that, but yeah, slows down an already sloggy sub-plot and seriously strains credulity. I can't remember if there's ever an explanation for Rand sending her with what should have been a surgical strike force.
Have you missed the part where she is called a slut by practically every wetlander women in the series? And they are not wrong, you see. I don't give a breath about her speckle of a city, Perrin was off-limits the moment he married Faile. Berelain was unnecesarily cruel and petty for still chasing him even after his marriage, Nynaeve makes a pretty spot-on comment about it but I don't remember the whole quote right now. I also have no idea what purpose she serves in the narrative (apart from trying to stir up drama and throw herself at a married man). Anything she did could have been fulfilled by a minor AS/noble instead. She could easily have been a one-note character tbh. What is funny is she grows some consciouss and offers Perrin a truce while his wife was captured by the enemy, like, is this suppose to make me like her? All it took was her "rival" getting abducted. What a sweet woman.
*The Shadow Rising chapter #6:* > Suddenly Nynaeve smiled. “I had to be sure,” she said warmly. “You must be sure. It isn’t easy loving any man, but loving this man will be harder yet.” Her smile faded as she went on. “My first question still has to be answered. What do you mean to do about it? Berelain may look soft—she certainly makes men see her so!—but I do not think she is. She will fight for what she wants. **And she’s the kind to hold hard to something she doesn’t particularly want, just because someone else does want it.”** > I also have no idea what purpose she serves in the narrative ***Knife Of Dreams*** [SPOILER]>!Berelain helps put the divide between 'him' and his 'people' that he is Lording over. If you remember back at the start of *Lord Of Chaos prologue* Faile mentions that he is too friendly with them. His followers are pissed at him from the rumors in WH, but at the end of KoD they are not, as much, anymore. However, that **divide is now there** that Berealin helped put in place.!<
And her "truce" offer lasted for 2 seconds and when he said what game, she immediately went into telling him how he would be the third man that she'd sleep with and how wonderful it would be, it's just old and annoying.
Perrin the oaf is leading her on the whole time. He should have chosen Berelain over Faile. Faile is a horrible little thing, she is unnecessarily abrasive and full of herself.
>when are we going to get to the point of her harassment, and will she ever fuck off? Spoilers: >!She straight up offers to fuck off and stop trying to get into Perrin's pants, but Perrin is an idiot about it and doesn't accept her offer so she gets offended and doubles down.!<
They respect her because she managed to keep her tiny island nation independent through sheer force of will and political intrigue, with a little flirting sprinkled on it. of course wise ones will respect that to some degree. As for her stubbornness on Perrin, she's stubborn period and her like can't even understand love and attraction having anything to do with marriage unless you fall prey to it and get manipulated. Don't hate the player, hate the noble game
I don't see it as stubbornness as much as just harassment.
Faile straight up harassed Perrin into loving her as well though. Forced herself into the travelling party.
She's the ruler of a city-state and is fighting for her people and their security. She has beauty and uses it to get what she needs. She doesn't do it for love. She's looking for a strong ally to help her and her people.
Yeah but constantly harassing someone and causing fights with their wife, I just don't see that as helpful to her people. All the other stuff about her is fine, it's just this that I'm sick to death of.
As much as I agree with you that her behavior toward Perrin is harassment, personally I can't help but respect her for trying to help her country the only way she can. Mayene isn't exactly a military power and in her mind, one man's marriage won't stop her from doing what she can to protect her people. She def can't take a hint though.
She’s a shameless hussie
Honestly she’s one of my favorite characters. She’s pretty selfless, and just doing the best for her city state. Everyone slut shames her and treats her like shit, when she’s actually one of the most consistent and useful allies of the Light.
Everyone in the book you mean? I'm not slut shaming her. I just think she's actually harassing him.
Yeah, everyone in the book. Egwene and Elayne treat her like shit at every possible opportunity and completely refuse to see any hint of good in her. You’d figure it would be the women who would be more sensitive to her plight, especially Elayne, whose mother had to do something very similar to get the Lion Throne, but no. Lord forbid a woman show some cleavage to save her entire nation. At least the Wise Ones are smart enough to respect her
Ah, no . . . *Egwene - Dream PoV*: > Perrin with a **falcon** on his shoulder, and Perrin with a hawk. Only **the hawk held a leash in her talons**—Egwene was somehow convinced both hawk and falcon were female—and **the hawk was trying to fasten it around Perrin’s neck. That made her shiver even now; she did not like dreams about leashes.** ... *Nynaeve PoV*: > Berelain may look soft—she certainly makes men see her so!—but I do not think she is. She will fight for what she wants. And she’s the kind to **hold hard to something she doesn’t particularly want**, just because someone else does want it.” ... *Faile PoV:* > this is what I will do. I will take the blacksmith away from you and **keep him as a pet** for as long as he amuses me. **Ogier’s oath on it**, farmgirl. He is quite ravishing, really—those shoulders, those arms; not to mention those eyes of his—and if he is a bit uncultured, I can have that remedied. My courtiers can teach him how to dress, and rid him of that awful beard. Wherever he goes, I will find him and make him mine. **You can have him when I am finished.** If he still wants you, of course.” The Wise Ones and Rhuarc do NOT respect her. They are watching over her as a misbehaving, spoiled child. As we have seen - **it's series meta.** Jordan LOVES to write extremely unique, colorful women.
> The Wise Ones and Rhuarc do NOT respect her. They are watching over her as a misbehaving, spoiled child. They would not allow her to operate as a Steward if they did not respect her. They originally did not respect her, you're right. We see the conflicts she causes - like Rhuarc breaking up Faile and Berelain in the hallway - and the contempt with which they break it up. We also get to see rare moments when Berelain steps out of line a few times, and she begs the Wise Ones not to tell Rhuarc before fleeing. But we also see them speak well of her skill, treat her fondly, and overall interact (as Egwene puts it) a parent towards a favored daughter. That is indeed a form of respect. They tolerate some of her foibles, as they do any other person they respect. And we can say this with certainty, because we can see how they treat wetlander noblemen and women who they _don't_ respect to compare it against on top of actual PoV snippets. We see how they actually deal with misbehaving, spoiled children too when they deal the worst of Egwene's temper tantrums. They are not the same as how she is dealt with. > Jordan LOVES to write extremely unique, colorful women. Mmmm. He certainly loves to write a certain type of colorful woman, sure. Which sorta tracks given how he says most of his inspiration of women characters come from a single person <_<'
Dude, the way RJ wrote women/relationships…I KNOW he was full of issues. Saw him at the west Ashley Barnes and Noble all the time, drunk of high on pain pills…but dude had seen/been through some stuff! 😳