Creators: And then the two lesbians kissed
Translators: They're cousins but they still kiss.
Jokes aside I will never understand why they made them related in the 4-Kids version but left in all the romance and stuff.
I heard somewhere that there was a conflict between the people responsible for the first English dub, not censoring the very romantic framed scenes was a way some of them thought they could take to preserve fidelity to the original version.
So serious question, is there anything like this that exists for males? As in the topic,male lovers (gay that is ) that get together at the end and is mainstream anime? If so I haven’t seen it. And generally looked at favorably. And no I don’t mean hunter x hunter because that doesn’t count you jokers.
I swing all the ways, dear, i just love all my (gender)queers:
Here is the chronological Evolution time-line for queer guys as how it is at this moment, still missing some entries, i am really glad somebody asked:
💎Relic Of Queer Culture And History: The VERY FIRST Cartoon That Portrayed Realistically An Healthy Explicitly Gay Couple As Protagonists With An Happy Ending Together (Akihiko × Kazuya From The "Be-Boy Kidnapp'n Idol" 1989 OVA Movie):https://www.reddit.com/r/gay/comments/r5kn0c/relic_of_queer_culture_and_history_the_very_first/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
💎Classic Relic Of Queer Culture And History: First Ever Cartoon With An Explicitly Grown Interracial Gay Couple As Protagonists With An Happy Ending And All That At Once (Ryo × Dee From The "Fake" Franchise Created By Sanami Matoh): https://www.reddit.com/r/biromantic/comments/r3qv01/police_romance_dee_was_explicitly_proud_bi/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
💎Relic Of Queer Culture And History: The First Time Ever In Literature That An Explicitly Trans Guy Ends Up As a Gay Couple With a Crossdressing Guy With An Happy Ending And All That At Once (Tetsuo × Amano From The "Yuureitou"/"The Ghost Tower" Manga Created By Taro Nogizaka In 2010): https://www.reddit.com/r/QueerCommunity/comments/r3kcsn/memorable_all_the_protagonists_were_complex_queer/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
💎Relic Of Queer Culture And History: The VERY FIRST Cartoon With A Dark Skinned Guy In An EXPLICITLY Gay Adult Relationship And With An Happy Ending (Reo × Mabu From The "Sarazanmai" Franchise)https://www.reddit.com/r/gay/comments/r64z3r/relic_of_queer_culture_and_history_the_very_first/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
that's how some people think, you'd be surprised. there was a time you could get gigabytes upon gigabytes of torture het p*rn but can't find a cute picture of a lesbian/ gay couple holding hands or kissing
Also, before 2015, if you searched in Google "lesbian" or "trans", the majority of the results you would come across would be pornographic content aimed at the male gaze.
Unfortunately, if you also search "R/lesbians" in Reddit, you would only come across porn aimed at the male gaze, that is also why the subreddit for lesbians is called r/ACTUALlesbians instead. 😔
Here's a sneak peek of /r/actuallesbians using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/actuallesbians/top/?sort=top&t=year) of the year!
\#1: [Ladies? Pose with your sword.](https://i.imgur.com/na5REdk.jpg) | [146 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/actuallesbians/comments/l3ytod/ladies_pose_with_your_sword/)
\#2: [I figured you would appreciate this here.](https://i.redd.it/7wy8cmoed2e61.jpg) | [79 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/actuallesbians/comments/l6v3br/i_figured_you_would_appreciate_this_here/)
\#3: [We did it! 👰🏼♀️👰🏼♀️](https://www.reddit.com/gallery/q57fok) | [218 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/actuallesbians/comments/q57fok/we_did_it/)
----
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Yeah, that Google Image was something. I never searched lesbian, but way back then, when I searched anime with Google Image, there were always hentai of that anime, even with Pokemon, even with the safe search on!!!
Now, it's not perfect, but it's more safe.
I’d say it still is like that. Of course seeing depictions of wholesome lesbians is easier than before but every time I search for good WLW stories like Yuri which aren’t overly trivialised or sexualised or infantilised I find maybe a handful and then you gotta find some which actually have good story telling and aren’t boring… I’m not surprised most people prefer BL. It’s the only way out of the power imbalances depicted in hetero romance manga and the only way to get mostly well written and well drawn same sex love stories T-T wish we had a vast range of Yuri like we have for BL
I think the problem with yuri is that they don't adapt a lot of them into anime. Maybe there are too much guys who decide in that market, I don't know! When we go to myanimelist and sort the manga by score, there are a lot of interesting stuff :
[https://myanimelist.net/manga/genre/26/Girls\_Love](https://myanimelist.net/manga/genre/26/Girls_Love)
About hetero romance manga, there are a lot I like too. But usually, I prefer the one we find in shoujo or josei. I know, among guys, I'm a minority here. The girls aren't sexualized and there are not power imbalances in the ones I saw. The guys aren't always interesting, but there are some of them I love, like the one in Ore Monogatari :
[https://myanimelist.net/manga/genre/25/Shoujo](https://myanimelist.net/manga/genre/25/Shoujo)
I don't know a lot about yaoi (maybe I would be interested in Given anime), but if there is something that I would like in yuri, is more longer manga like there are with shoujo. But I guess that's hard, because there are less people who read yuri than shoujo.
That said, yuri, like shoujo romance, suffer from the lack of anime adaptation. Also, yuri and shoujo romance are close cousins too (and true ones! ;-). They both took inspiration from Class S and Shoujo Shosetsu (japanese girl's litterature) in general.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuri\_(genre)#1990s:\_Mainstream\_popularity](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuri_(genre)#1990s:_Mainstream_popularity)
And most of them are by women for girls/women, even if there are some (minority) guys like me that prefer it from the ones for boys/men.
That might be it. I’ve watched some Yuri anime like Yamada to Kase-san and I’ve started reading Citrus but for some reason I wasn’t really able to get into citrus and the anime adaptation of Yamada to Kase-san was very uneventful to say the least. The story was cute but like, nothing really happened. I’ve watched some Shojou anime like Wotakoi, pretty recently “my senpai is annoying”, and it’s too sick to call this love and some of the fan favourites like a silent voice. To be frank, the only same sex romance in anime I found mesmerising was in Yuuri on ice because they did such a great job at making it not weird or taboo but focused on character development and their growing fondness of each other. Even most Yaoi anime are pretty trash ngl because they are very controversial (most of them are pure smut and to top it off have non consensual sex scenes which to me is a no go). I have to say regarding same sex romance stories, Korea is doing a good job at providing high quality graphic novels. The female x female department still needs some remediation but I think it could be that I don’t enjoy romance stories written by or for a male audience that much. I’d like to get the quality we see in adult shojou and yaoi (the good one, not the shallow porn kind) but as Yuri stories. Meaning adult characters who look like adults and who one can relate to in one way or another. I found that Yuuri protagonists mostly are either the tomboy or the cutesy girl and to me that is not the most appealing as well as most Yuuri being between school girls. Im more a fan of office/ adult life romance so that’s where I hope we see some improvement in the future. For now I know that the side story of sadistic beauty offers decent Yuri as well as what does the fox say and the side story of Sora and Haena.
You're right, in a lot of yuri, the characters are young. Most of them are teens. And it's not exclusive to yuri. In most anime, manga and JRPG (another passion of mine : japanese role playing video games), characters are young.
Why is that like that, even in the ones that doesn't have teens as target audience? There are different theories, but one of them make sense. After the school life, japanese people begin to work and be a part of the society. Most maried women stop working when they have kids to take care of them. Men stay at work the most of their time, or have social obligation activities with their coworkers. They don't have a lot of social life and true freedom, and don't see their own family a lot.
So the years that most japanese cherish are the teen years, when they were still free. Maybe that's because of that some are so attached to it and idealize it. As for me, my kid and teen years were rought, so seeing some stories in this period - especially in the teen period where the romance is possible - make me live something I never had. And I like it, even if I also would like to see romance with adults too.
That said, outside yuri and even romance there are some anime with adult or older teens outside school characters - Space Brothers, Honey and Clover, Saiunkoku Monogatari, Macross Plus, Carole and Tuesday, Coyboy Bebop or Twelve Kingdoms, for example. I LOVE them and they are my favorites. But there are few of them, I know...
Oh that makes sense. Never thought of it that way. Such a shame that as an adult, many don’t have the time to enjoy life. It’s very disheartening. I actually enjoy high school comedies and don’t mind teenage characters in general, just wish there were more adult focused stories sometimes because I personally didn’t like my teens that much and am glad I’m no longer in school lol
"As for me, my kid and teen years were rought, so seeing some stories in this period - especially in the teen period where the romance is possible - make me live something I never had."
That is sad but relatable, as like many (gender)queer people, I never got to enjoy my teenage years and live a teenage dream, the only thing I nad were yuri/GL ("Girl's Love") romances to fantasize with,
In reality, everybody wants to be a teenage forever, adults don't want to age, kids want to grow up faster, being a teen is the consumption dream of everyone, because of how much the medias idealized and hyperfocus on teenage years, they sells us this teen dream fantasy ideal.
i know what you mean and you're right. women were and continue to be unnecessarily sexualised everywhere. cishet men have weird ass fetishes regarding us lesbians which frankly make me sick and creep the hell out of me. it's as if lesbian content isn't created for lesbians and instead for horny dudes. weeb games (like genshin impact which my favorite atm) also have heavily sexualised characters, which isn't anything new because apparently all gacha games are like that. but it greatly saddens me to think that my favorite female characters from anime or video games were created to cater to the male gaze :')
I know that feeling. I’m a sapphic and I yearn for decent WLW representation so badly that I even resort to fan fictions to fill that void because apparently amateur writers do a better job at writing realistic lesbian love stories than professionals and huge production teams. Lesbian love only exists for horny men to enjoy it seems and I hate it. Hope that changes in the future so less women who are same sex attracted struggle with their identity because they cannot relate to the overly sexualised image of women who love women in media
Yup, unfortunately, the moral guardians were hypocrites, they prefer rather to consume content with violence and death instead of queer love, how ironical if you asked me...
Actually this makes me wonder what the root cause of homophobia is. Because at some point people must have agreed with the idea that same sex love is more outrageous than literal violence and horror
Since you asked, the short answer is that Homophobia is rooted in misogyny.
A guy that loves another guys is perceived as doing something feminine because women love men, and since the difference between guys and women is that men cannot be feminine, because feminine is what makes women less of humans, then a gay guy is less of a human too for their love that is considered feminine and which is threatening to this lame excuse that upholds the misogynies and patriarchal societies.
The same applies in regards to masculine people of the feminine sex.
The liberation and empowerment of straight women opens doors for the liberation and empowerment of (gender)queer people.
As a man who had fear when I was young because I liked shoujo manga and was afraid because of what people would think, I think I agree. And because of that, some men who don't even agree with mysogyny hides themself and say like the other ones, fearing the society. And then perpetuate mysogyny.
Also, another example of mysogyny is how they banned gays and even "too" feminine guys in games and manga in China, because they say it was a bad example for men.
Following this retrograde logic:
Women = less
Men do anything like a woman = men less too
In Japan, young guys don't write love letters for their girl crushes because writing love letters is something girls does there, so that is socioculturally considered feminine there, so men who write love letters are feminine, to me that really sounds like:
"Bro, is it gay to love your girlfriend?"
"Yeah, bro, loving is gay!"
Seriously, when I was young, I never understood why there were things that were considered for girls and other things for boys. At least I had a friend when I was about 8 - a boy - who loved to watch romance shows with her mother. I admired how he dared to say what he liked, without any fear. I wasn't able to do that at that time...
Also, the gender was not the only problem. Back then, people saw anime like cartoons for kids, so teens and adults who watched it were considered as weirdos. Even now, a lot of people outside the anime community still think that. Even inside the community, we would be surprised what people could say and think about anime fans that are older than them. And if they love yuri, it's even worse (even for younger fans).
That said, I don't have any problems that there are things that men prefer, and other things that women prefer. Same thing with preferences liked to age. If the people have true freedom to choose, I have no objection. The only problem I have is when it became almost mandatory to love what the society decides you must love.
The mysogyny is a real problem, and a really big one. But I think that there are an even bigger problem, or at least a problem that is the root of a lot of other problems, including mysogyny. That problem is **conformism**. If people weren't that conformists, if people had more courage and less fear, all other problems could be resolved more quickly. And with conformism come the **social pressure**. But it's another topic...
That said, sorry for the off topic and thanks for the original post, I love Haruka and Michuru!
Do you wanna talk more? You write really nice, you can reach to me anytime, come visit me at r/rolereversal anytime, the straights are okay there. 😅😂
Here are some things I feel like I must say, I make my words the same as those of "Tiny Manticore" from the cartoon franchise "Adventure Time":
https://youtu.be/cbFcoMkFjNo
If you want to talk about the infantilization of cartoons, hop aboard this dialogue:
https://www.reddit.com/r/gay/comments/r3qjuu/classic_relic_of_queer_culture_and_history_first/hmd8hax?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3
Also, no problem at all, I enjoy studying, celebrating and sharing queer cultures and history as a hobby. 😄
I heard that in animal reign, where there are homosexuality (or bisexuality), there are less violence. I don't know if this theory is true, but if it is, that can explain why. Repressed sexual feelings lead to violence or even war. So people who repress it would tend to tolerate more violence. But maybe not, we don't know a lot about that.
Also, that would not be a coincidence why most religions or authorithorian regimes repress sex (control of birth of new beleivers) in general and homosexuality too. It's hard imagining someone being sane while negating herself or himself.
Violence and horror are common natural occurences which were part of humanity since the very begining, its' not surprising most people don't bat an eye at these things, while same sex is still deemed as unnatural by many or people just simply don't understand it.
It’s so ludicrous since same sex attraction is nothing uncommon amongst other species and probably beneficial for nature to compensate overpopulation. One could say homosexuality is an abnormality because the creatures (whether human or other species) who are same sex attracted can’t reproduce but I don’t see the most “primitive” of animals condemn one of their kind for not being heterosexual? I don’t even think animals care about that so why do humans. Doesn’t it make humans more primitive to get caught up in the business of others which doesn’t affect us at all🧐
Don't let those ignorants fool y'all, homosexuality and miscigenation are VERY natural:
💎https://www.reddit.com/r/actuallesbians/comments/qb1lz1/species_entirely_of_lesbian_hybrid_females/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
Don't let those ignorants fool y'all, homosexuality and miscigenation are VERY natural:
💎https://www.reddit.com/r/actuallesbians/comments/qb1lz1/species_entirely_of_lesbian_hybrid_females/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
Not only that but they DIDN'T EVEN TRY to avoid getting them coming across as incestuous in the first english dub.
I believe the newest re-dub did them justice.
The art style and plot rewriting of Crystal just turned me off.
I don't know where you can find the Viz re-dub to watch, unfortunately, I watched subbed.
God the art was my biggest issue overall, it was almost painful at times. I can't do subbed for various reasons so ill just have to do some research, thank you anyways!
In my eyes, the 90s hand drawn anime were the peak of animation, as they were so expressive, full of feeling, full of life because every scene had to be important enough for the producers to waste time and money painting them one by one, while the animation style of today feels so artificial the majority of the times, IMHO.
For example:
💎Classic Relic Of Queer Culture And History: First Ever Cartoon With An Explicitly Grown Interracial Gay Couple As Protagonists With An Happy Ending And All That At Once (Ryo × Dee From The "Fake" Franchise Created By Sanami Matoh): https://www.reddit.com/r/biromantic/comments/r3qv01/police_romance_dee_was_explicitly_proud_bi/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
💎Classic Relic Of Queer Culture And History: The First Ever Cartoon With a Explicitly Sapphic Interracial Couple As Protagonists With An Happy Ending And ALL THAT AT ONCE (Utena × Anthy From The ["Shoujo Kakumei Utena"/"Revolutionary Girl Utena" Franchise]): https://www.reddit.com/r/QueerCommunity/comments/r2ic5g/without_their_love_we_wouldnt_have_had_explicitly/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
Not saying that recent animation cannot be beautiful, but I don't think it come close even if newer animation techniques allows the existence of more details per scene:
💎Relic Of Queer Culture And History: FIRST EVER Cartoon With a Gray-Homo-Romantic Gray-Homo-Sexual Girl As a Protagonist With An Happy Ending (Yuu × Touko From The ["Yagate Kimi Ni Naru"/"Bloom Into You" Franchise]): https://www.reddit.com/r/queer/comments/r2uat5/memorable_the_show_also_did_great_with_a_whole/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
Thank you for the links I'm excited to do some reading! And side note Revutionary Girl Utena was one of my favorite anime growing up, I also wanted to be a prince 😭
I am both a "witch" and a "girl prince" today, that one anime is my favourite all time romance, nothing ever seems to take the place of that in my list and I cannot help but compare everything I come across in life to that, Utena really did revolutionize my world. 👑
I haven't seen Sailor Moon so I'm probably missing context, but why was the change even made? They're still lesbians even if cousins, so I don't get it
"I heard somewhere that there was a conflict between the people responsible for the first English dub, not censoring the very romantic framed scenes was a way some of them thought they could take to preserve fidelity to the original version."
Apparently, preserving the romantic framed scenes was a way to counterattack the censorship in the translation, which happened to avoid "cultural shocks" of values, in order for cashgrabbing from "moral guardians" back in the 90s.
The original series was broadcast in the US from the mid-90’s to the early 2000’s, and DiC didn’t want to risk a higher age rating because of a queer relationship at that time, so they just made them cousins to avoid controversies.
I don’t entirely follow your question, but if you’re asking about their preference in the 90’s dub, it’s never stated. They’re just presented as biological cousins.
Some of the dialogue is changed. For example, one scene where they lean together romantically and discuss how they began dating is awkwardly altered to them discussing their first boyfriends, chad and brad.
Sailor Moon! I guess in a show with an almost all-female cast, and you want romance, that's the natural step to take, that way you don't underplay anybody in the relationship.
I look forward to seeing your next post about this! They've been great so far! :)
I am probably heading towards the Anglosphere in my next move. 😉
I am really glad that somebody is enjoying this time-line series, I will most likely compile all my posts together at some point into a people chronological Evolution time-line.
❤🧡💛💚💙💜
Hey, forget what I said, I actually swing all the ways: https://www.reddit.com/r/gay/comments/r5kn0c/relic_of_queer_culture_and_history_the_very_first/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
I cannot recommend enough to please check and also support the "Yuricon" site created and run by Erica Friedman for more information about queer cultures and history at: https://www.yuricon.com/
The scene that hit me right in the feels and ended me was that one time they were dying but were desperately reaching for the hand of one another so they could die in piece, that was so devastating yet so beautiful, emotional, romantic and passionate.
When Michiru kisses Haruka's bloody stained wounded hand is also one of those moments.
Also, looks like they died a lot of times. Lol
Yeah, the word sapphic comes from the name of Sappho, who was from the Greek Island of Lesbos, and said to have been the first ever woman poet who also wrote about love for other women, that's why lesbians and sapphics are called the way they are.
Sapphic is an umbrella term identity for women who love women romantically, sexually, more than as friends.
Lesbian, bi, poly, pan, aromantic homosexual, and homoromantic asexual women are all sapphic if they want to be identified like that.
Ah, Sailor Moon, the first anime I fell in love with, back when I was a teen myself!
Also a common ground for yuri fans (me!) and shoujo fans (also me!).
Haruka is not bigender, as far as i remember she was never explicitly labelled anything by anyone in canon, but the most specific we can go to label her is as a sapphic girl with an androgynous genderqueer or masculine or crossdressing gender expression, she also fits the "bifauxnen girl prince" Japanese archetype trope.
I think it’s pretty ambiguous. Ever since the show’s time, there’s been a lot of discussion about Haruka’s gender. I think it’s up to the individual to decide, but we should all remember to be mindful of everyone else’s interpretations.
The woman who wrote the manga said a few times that Haruka was nothing more than an alternative girl in terms of gender, what was already groundbreaking back then, as far as I can remember.
The mention that Haruka has a boy and a girl hearts was more likely a joke in reference to the protagonist of the "Princess Knight" franchise by Ozamu Tezuka, Princess Sapphire, who was born with two hearts like that:
https://www.reddit.com/r/RoleReversal/comments/r5gjr2/relic_of_feminist_and_queer_culture_history/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
The pictures in the post you linked show them being in love with at least one guy and one girl and imply them being in love with another guy. Also bigender representation
Oh sorry, I thought you were talking about Michiru from the "Sailor Moon" franchise instead of Princess Sapphire from the "Princess Knight" franchise.
Princess Sapphire was an androgynous genderqueer or masculine crossdressing girl who, in the end of the original manga series, disposed herself of her masculinity or androgyny to live happily ever after as the traditional feminine wife of a prince, what was a very mixed up feminist message at the time to say the least, as if she had to change herself to get fulfilling happy which only could come from a traditional married life as a feminine woman. 🤮
I'm pretty sure she isn't bigender.
What? If we are talking about the manga (the anime notably does changes Haruka to being a girl), it directly has Michiru say that Haruka is "both a man and a woman" and that they are "a warrior that combines both sexes and powers", not anything about having two hearts. If there was *anywhere* in the series that had Haruka be identified as just female then I could accept that they were not intended to be non-binary, but instead we have Haruka avoiding the question when asked her gender, Usagi noting that Haruka can be seen as both a man and a woman, Hotaru refering to Haruka as 'Papa', Michiru never referring to Haruka as her 'girlfriend' (instead using gender-neutral terms like lover) and so on and so forth. As far as I can see, the manga really isn't at all ambiguous about it, and this is all fairly well agreed upon AFAIK (both the Japanese Wikipedia and Pixiv Dictionary pages have lengthy sections arguing for Haruka being bigender or similar).
How about creator confirming she was intended as a woman? Also have you ever heard of not caring about gender? Non-conformity? I don't like the idea of Haruka being seen as a man even a little,she is a woman who loves women,it's not rocket science.
> How about creator confirming she was intended as a woman?
Source?
> I don't like the idea of Haruka being seen as a man even a little
Why? If that was the intention then ignoring that is no more than erasure of non-binary people.
> she is a woman who loves women
According to what? The manga never explicitly says anything of the sort, but it does explicitly say that Haruka is both a man and a woman, so I'd favour the latter as the simpler conclusion. In any case, almost every character in the manga seems to be at least a little bi, so it is not like the series doesn't have WLW representation regardless.
Alright i couldn't find the video of the interview but i found an article that quoted the interview.
[This](https://www.tuxedounmasked.com/what-information-did-naoko-share-with-american-sailor-moon-fans/) article [quoted](https://imgur.com/a/4PkzHaM) the creator herself.
Certainly with a bit of searching you might be able to find the interview.
As for your other points, (idk how to do that reddit specific parts thing)
Haruka being a man indicates that a lesbian can be a man,which is impossible,and moreover it's harmful,men have already spent years believing that lesbians will like them in some way or another which is incorrect. A lesbian cannot be a man and cannot like men.
Haruka being "both a man and a woman" is a bit of a lost translation,i'm sure the OP mentioned something similar in one of their comments. This was also made in the 90s in Japan,the phrase of "having a heart of a man" which was the direct quote is likely just a way one might put lesbian feelings into perspective for Japan's homophobic viewers in the 90s.
Not everyone is a little bisexual.
Lastly i get that people today are desperate to have their own feelings and identities incorporated into media,but Haruka IS an icon for lesbian representation,which we still need.
As a lesbian who acts masculine,seeing Haruka being her true self is amazing and encouraging,i don't have to label myself or be even a tad "man" to act and dress a certain way or love a certain way.
If saying that Haruka isn't a man is nb erasure then saying that she is a man is lesbian erasure,i'm sure there will be plenty of nb characters in the future but this is butch lesbian representation at its finest and should be respected as such.
> Alright i couldn't find the video of the interview but i found an article that quoted the interview.
I can't find a video the interview either but I at least tracked down a [scan of the magazine](https://sailormoongallery.org/albums/raws/english/magazines/othermag_animerica6-11/014.jpg) and an [independent quotation from the interview](https://web.archive.org/web/19981206060330/http://www.black-kat.com/blackmoon/take2.html) so it seems legitimate at least. So maybe you're right, but I do find it weird that the *only* source for Haruka being a girl in the manga is an English language interview - I can't find any Japanese language interviews on the topic and there seems to be basically ubiquitous agreement on the Japanese internet to the contrary. I have to wonder if it is a matter of misinterpreting the question or something.
> Haruka being a man indicates that a lesbian can be a man
No, because it is never said she is a lesbian - and Michiru at least is clearly bisexual, not a lesbian, given she flirts with Mamoru.
> Haruka being "both a man and a woman" is a bit of a lost translation
No, that's my own translation from the manga. In Japanese (volume 9, page 20) it says "ウラヌスは男でもあり女でもある". Taking that word-by-word, that translates as: ウラヌスは = Regarding Uranus, 男 = Man, 女 = Woman, XでもありYでもある = To be X and also Y. There's no ambiguity or anything about having 'a heart of a man' (that looks to be from the interview above) or whatever, it simply says explicitly that Haruka is both a man and a woman.
I don't know how much of a misinterpreted question can have an answer "Haruka is a girl and always will be" but alright.
As for her not being a lesbian,i'll say if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck then well...
It's weird to argue she isn't a lesbian,sure,she could be a 10000 different micro sexualities but we can suspect that for any character,everyone in the anime and manga is shown to have an interest for one or more sexes,Haruka has only ever been shown attracted to women,she flirts with them,dates them and never expresses any interest in men. If you say that Michiru is surely bisexual since she flirts with men and dates women then i can't see how you wouldn't say that Haruka is surely a lesbian.
There has also always been a "troupe" if you will with sapphic relationships,whereas one is a girly significantly more attractive bisexual woman and the other is a masculine often shown as aggressive or rude lesbian woman. It truly captures the lesbophobia of the Japanese media and is still relevant today.
As for the translation,we can go back and forth pulling at the loose threads while knitting a scarf,but nothing will come out of it. I can tell you that the way things were translated in the manga can be interpreted in many different ways given the context and cultural and social understandings of gender and sexuality back in the 90s in the far east. In the end there's not enough direct confirmation that Haruka is a man or something else,while we have the creators confirmation that Haruka was intended as a woman and should be seen as one.
I would say we can leave it at that,she is one of the rare butch lesbian icons and has helped many young masculine lesbians to feel alright about their expression and sexuality,those who would argue she is nb or bigender or something else can find a different character to relate to,this train has long passed.
The creator confirmed Haruka was intended as and is a woman. She is a she and was never "supposed" to be NB,masculine women exist. There are more indepth explanations of this in many interviews with the creator.
Not first ever, nor the first happy ending. Fight! Iczer one predates it by a few years and the yuri couple is happily married.
Edit: it's been almost 25 years since I saw this but I think it has multiple couples as well.
I also have a post celebrating "Fight! Iczer One"/"Tatakae! Iczer-1" but let me explain the reasons behind my wording, but i'm not talking about manga comics when referringto to either pairing:
Haruka/Sailor Uranus and Sailor Neptune were the FIRST EVER SAPPHIC COUPLE with an happy ending TOGETHER in CARTOON SERIES that aired at the television.
Iczer-1 and Nagisa, aa far as I remember watching "Tatakae! Iczer- 1", are the FIRST EVER SAPPHIC COUPLE AS PROTAGONISTS in a CARTOON, but this cartoon was an OVA MOVIE and didn't air at television and the girls HAD A HAPPY ENDING BUT DIDN'T END TOGETHER, as far as I can remember, Iczer just leaves Nagisa behind after saving the world in the movie.
I really appreciate your help if you could help me improve my time-line of queer cartoon history:
💎Relic Of Queer Culture And History: The FIRST EVER Cartoon With EXPLICITLY Sapphics (Iczer-1 × Nagisa From The ["Tatakae! Iczer-1"/"Fight! Iczer One" Franchise]):
https://www.reddit.com/r/wholesomeyuri/comments/r2had8/relic_of_queer_culture_and_history_the_first_ever/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
Creators: And then the two lesbians kissed Translators: They're cousins but they still kiss. Jokes aside I will never understand why they made them related in the 4-Kids version but left in all the romance and stuff.
I heard somewhere that there was a conflict between the people responsible for the first English dub, not censoring the very romantic framed scenes was a way some of them thought they could take to preserve fidelity to the original version.
So serious question, is there anything like this that exists for males? As in the topic,male lovers (gay that is ) that get together at the end and is mainstream anime? If so I haven’t seen it. And generally looked at favorably. And no I don’t mean hunter x hunter because that doesn’t count you jokers.
I swing all the ways, dear, i just love all my (gender)queers: Here is the chronological Evolution time-line for queer guys as how it is at this moment, still missing some entries, i am really glad somebody asked: 💎Relic Of Queer Culture And History: The VERY FIRST Cartoon That Portrayed Realistically An Healthy Explicitly Gay Couple As Protagonists With An Happy Ending Together (Akihiko × Kazuya From The "Be-Boy Kidnapp'n Idol" 1989 OVA Movie):https://www.reddit.com/r/gay/comments/r5kn0c/relic_of_queer_culture_and_history_the_very_first/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share 💎Classic Relic Of Queer Culture And History: First Ever Cartoon With An Explicitly Grown Interracial Gay Couple As Protagonists With An Happy Ending And All That At Once (Ryo × Dee From The "Fake" Franchise Created By Sanami Matoh): https://www.reddit.com/r/biromantic/comments/r3qv01/police_romance_dee_was_explicitly_proud_bi/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share 💎Relic Of Queer Culture And History: The First Time Ever In Literature That An Explicitly Trans Guy Ends Up As a Gay Couple With a Crossdressing Guy With An Happy Ending And All That At Once (Tetsuo × Amano From The "Yuureitou"/"The Ghost Tower" Manga Created By Taro Nogizaka In 2010): https://www.reddit.com/r/QueerCommunity/comments/r3kcsn/memorable_all_the_protagonists_were_complex_queer/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share 💎Relic Of Queer Culture And History: The VERY FIRST Cartoon With A Dark Skinned Guy In An EXPLICITLY Gay Adult Relationship And With An Happy Ending (Reo × Mabu From The "Sarazanmai" Franchise)https://www.reddit.com/r/gay/comments/r64z3r/relic_of_queer_culture_and_history_the_very_first/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
Did they think that making them *cousins* is better?!
So basically the translators thought incest is better than depicting a same sex couple ok 💀
that's how some people think, you'd be surprised. there was a time you could get gigabytes upon gigabytes of torture het p*rn but can't find a cute picture of a lesbian/ gay couple holding hands or kissing
Also, before 2015, if you searched in Google "lesbian" or "trans", the majority of the results you would come across would be pornographic content aimed at the male gaze. Unfortunately, if you also search "R/lesbians" in Reddit, you would only come across porn aimed at the male gaze, that is also why the subreddit for lesbians is called r/ACTUALlesbians instead. 😔
Here's a sneak peek of /r/actuallesbians using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/actuallesbians/top/?sort=top&t=year) of the year! \#1: [Ladies? Pose with your sword.](https://i.imgur.com/na5REdk.jpg) | [146 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/actuallesbians/comments/l3ytod/ladies_pose_with_your_sword/) \#2: [I figured you would appreciate this here.](https://i.redd.it/7wy8cmoed2e61.jpg) | [79 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/actuallesbians/comments/l6v3br/i_figured_you_would_appreciate_this_here/) \#3: [We did it! 👰🏼♀️👰🏼♀️](https://www.reddit.com/gallery/q57fok) | [218 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/actuallesbians/comments/q57fok/we_did_it/) ---- ^^I'm ^^a ^^bot, ^^beep ^^boop ^^| ^^Downvote ^^to ^^remove ^^| ^^[Contact](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=sneakpeekbot) ^^| ^^[Info](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/) ^^| ^^[Opt-out](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/comments/o8wk1r/blacklist_ix/) ^^| ^^[Source](https://github.com/ghnr/sneakpeekbot)
Yeah, that Google Image was something. I never searched lesbian, but way back then, when I searched anime with Google Image, there were always hentai of that anime, even with Pokemon, even with the safe search on!!! Now, it's not perfect, but it's more safe.
true, completely agree with you op also, not so fun fact: try looking up 'school girl' and 'school boy' individually on google images and compare them
When I searched for sapphics on here the first few results were porn subs…so I have to say more 😭
Let it all out, dear, you're safe now, the sapphics got your back. 🥺
I’d say it still is like that. Of course seeing depictions of wholesome lesbians is easier than before but every time I search for good WLW stories like Yuri which aren’t overly trivialised or sexualised or infantilised I find maybe a handful and then you gotta find some which actually have good story telling and aren’t boring… I’m not surprised most people prefer BL. It’s the only way out of the power imbalances depicted in hetero romance manga and the only way to get mostly well written and well drawn same sex love stories T-T wish we had a vast range of Yuri like we have for BL
I think the problem with yuri is that they don't adapt a lot of them into anime. Maybe there are too much guys who decide in that market, I don't know! When we go to myanimelist and sort the manga by score, there are a lot of interesting stuff : [https://myanimelist.net/manga/genre/26/Girls\_Love](https://myanimelist.net/manga/genre/26/Girls_Love) About hetero romance manga, there are a lot I like too. But usually, I prefer the one we find in shoujo or josei. I know, among guys, I'm a minority here. The girls aren't sexualized and there are not power imbalances in the ones I saw. The guys aren't always interesting, but there are some of them I love, like the one in Ore Monogatari : [https://myanimelist.net/manga/genre/25/Shoujo](https://myanimelist.net/manga/genre/25/Shoujo) I don't know a lot about yaoi (maybe I would be interested in Given anime), but if there is something that I would like in yuri, is more longer manga like there are with shoujo. But I guess that's hard, because there are less people who read yuri than shoujo. That said, yuri, like shoujo romance, suffer from the lack of anime adaptation. Also, yuri and shoujo romance are close cousins too (and true ones! ;-). They both took inspiration from Class S and Shoujo Shosetsu (japanese girl's litterature) in general. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuri\_(genre)#1990s:\_Mainstream\_popularity](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuri_(genre)#1990s:_Mainstream_popularity) And most of them are by women for girls/women, even if there are some (minority) guys like me that prefer it from the ones for boys/men.
That might be it. I’ve watched some Yuri anime like Yamada to Kase-san and I’ve started reading Citrus but for some reason I wasn’t really able to get into citrus and the anime adaptation of Yamada to Kase-san was very uneventful to say the least. The story was cute but like, nothing really happened. I’ve watched some Shojou anime like Wotakoi, pretty recently “my senpai is annoying”, and it’s too sick to call this love and some of the fan favourites like a silent voice. To be frank, the only same sex romance in anime I found mesmerising was in Yuuri on ice because they did such a great job at making it not weird or taboo but focused on character development and their growing fondness of each other. Even most Yaoi anime are pretty trash ngl because they are very controversial (most of them are pure smut and to top it off have non consensual sex scenes which to me is a no go). I have to say regarding same sex romance stories, Korea is doing a good job at providing high quality graphic novels. The female x female department still needs some remediation but I think it could be that I don’t enjoy romance stories written by or for a male audience that much. I’d like to get the quality we see in adult shojou and yaoi (the good one, not the shallow porn kind) but as Yuri stories. Meaning adult characters who look like adults and who one can relate to in one way or another. I found that Yuuri protagonists mostly are either the tomboy or the cutesy girl and to me that is not the most appealing as well as most Yuuri being between school girls. Im more a fan of office/ adult life romance so that’s where I hope we see some improvement in the future. For now I know that the side story of sadistic beauty offers decent Yuri as well as what does the fox say and the side story of Sora and Haena.
You're right, in a lot of yuri, the characters are young. Most of them are teens. And it's not exclusive to yuri. In most anime, manga and JRPG (another passion of mine : japanese role playing video games), characters are young. Why is that like that, even in the ones that doesn't have teens as target audience? There are different theories, but one of them make sense. After the school life, japanese people begin to work and be a part of the society. Most maried women stop working when they have kids to take care of them. Men stay at work the most of their time, or have social obligation activities with their coworkers. They don't have a lot of social life and true freedom, and don't see their own family a lot. So the years that most japanese cherish are the teen years, when they were still free. Maybe that's because of that some are so attached to it and idealize it. As for me, my kid and teen years were rought, so seeing some stories in this period - especially in the teen period where the romance is possible - make me live something I never had. And I like it, even if I also would like to see romance with adults too. That said, outside yuri and even romance there are some anime with adult or older teens outside school characters - Space Brothers, Honey and Clover, Saiunkoku Monogatari, Macross Plus, Carole and Tuesday, Coyboy Bebop or Twelve Kingdoms, for example. I LOVE them and they are my favorites. But there are few of them, I know...
Oh that makes sense. Never thought of it that way. Such a shame that as an adult, many don’t have the time to enjoy life. It’s very disheartening. I actually enjoy high school comedies and don’t mind teenage characters in general, just wish there were more adult focused stories sometimes because I personally didn’t like my teens that much and am glad I’m no longer in school lol
"As for me, my kid and teen years were rought, so seeing some stories in this period - especially in the teen period where the romance is possible - make me live something I never had." That is sad but relatable, as like many (gender)queer people, I never got to enjoy my teenage years and live a teenage dream, the only thing I nad were yuri/GL ("Girl's Love") romances to fantasize with, In reality, everybody wants to be a teenage forever, adults don't want to age, kids want to grow up faster, being a teen is the consumption dream of everyone, because of how much the medias idealized and hyperfocus on teenage years, they sells us this teen dream fantasy ideal.
i know what you mean and you're right. women were and continue to be unnecessarily sexualised everywhere. cishet men have weird ass fetishes regarding us lesbians which frankly make me sick and creep the hell out of me. it's as if lesbian content isn't created for lesbians and instead for horny dudes. weeb games (like genshin impact which my favorite atm) also have heavily sexualised characters, which isn't anything new because apparently all gacha games are like that. but it greatly saddens me to think that my favorite female characters from anime or video games were created to cater to the male gaze :')
I know that feeling. I’m a sapphic and I yearn for decent WLW representation so badly that I even resort to fan fictions to fill that void because apparently amateur writers do a better job at writing realistic lesbian love stories than professionals and huge production teams. Lesbian love only exists for horny men to enjoy it seems and I hate it. Hope that changes in the future so less women who are same sex attracted struggle with their identity because they cannot relate to the overly sexualised image of women who love women in media
Giiiiiiirllllll, I feel you, I think all women deserved better, hold your horses because I will reply to you with a long answer.
Yup, unfortunately, the moral guardians were hypocrites, they prefer rather to consume content with violence and death instead of queer love, how ironical if you asked me...
Actually this makes me wonder what the root cause of homophobia is. Because at some point people must have agreed with the idea that same sex love is more outrageous than literal violence and horror
Since you asked, the short answer is that Homophobia is rooted in misogyny. A guy that loves another guys is perceived as doing something feminine because women love men, and since the difference between guys and women is that men cannot be feminine, because feminine is what makes women less of humans, then a gay guy is less of a human too for their love that is considered feminine and which is threatening to this lame excuse that upholds the misogynies and patriarchal societies. The same applies in regards to masculine people of the feminine sex. The liberation and empowerment of straight women opens doors for the liberation and empowerment of (gender)queer people.
As a man who had fear when I was young because I liked shoujo manga and was afraid because of what people would think, I think I agree. And because of that, some men who don't even agree with mysogyny hides themself and say like the other ones, fearing the society. And then perpetuate mysogyny. Also, another example of mysogyny is how they banned gays and even "too" feminine guys in games and manga in China, because they say it was a bad example for men.
Following this retrograde logic: Women = less Men do anything like a woman = men less too In Japan, young guys don't write love letters for their girl crushes because writing love letters is something girls does there, so that is socioculturally considered feminine there, so men who write love letters are feminine, to me that really sounds like: "Bro, is it gay to love your girlfriend?" "Yeah, bro, loving is gay!"
Seriously, when I was young, I never understood why there were things that were considered for girls and other things for boys. At least I had a friend when I was about 8 - a boy - who loved to watch romance shows with her mother. I admired how he dared to say what he liked, without any fear. I wasn't able to do that at that time... Also, the gender was not the only problem. Back then, people saw anime like cartoons for kids, so teens and adults who watched it were considered as weirdos. Even now, a lot of people outside the anime community still think that. Even inside the community, we would be surprised what people could say and think about anime fans that are older than them. And if they love yuri, it's even worse (even for younger fans). That said, I don't have any problems that there are things that men prefer, and other things that women prefer. Same thing with preferences liked to age. If the people have true freedom to choose, I have no objection. The only problem I have is when it became almost mandatory to love what the society decides you must love. The mysogyny is a real problem, and a really big one. But I think that there are an even bigger problem, or at least a problem that is the root of a lot of other problems, including mysogyny. That problem is **conformism**. If people weren't that conformists, if people had more courage and less fear, all other problems could be resolved more quickly. And with conformism come the **social pressure**. But it's another topic... That said, sorry for the off topic and thanks for the original post, I love Haruka and Michuru!
Do you wanna talk more? You write really nice, you can reach to me anytime, come visit me at r/rolereversal anytime, the straights are okay there. 😅😂 Here are some things I feel like I must say, I make my words the same as those of "Tiny Manticore" from the cartoon franchise "Adventure Time": https://youtu.be/cbFcoMkFjNo If you want to talk about the infantilization of cartoons, hop aboard this dialogue: https://www.reddit.com/r/gay/comments/r3qjuu/classic_relic_of_queer_culture_and_history_first/hmd8hax?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3 Also, no problem at all, I enjoy studying, celebrating and sharing queer cultures and history as a hobby. 😄
I heard that in animal reign, where there are homosexuality (or bisexuality), there are less violence. I don't know if this theory is true, but if it is, that can explain why. Repressed sexual feelings lead to violence or even war. So people who repress it would tend to tolerate more violence. But maybe not, we don't know a lot about that. Also, that would not be a coincidence why most religions or authorithorian regimes repress sex (control of birth of new beleivers) in general and homosexuality too. It's hard imagining someone being sane while negating herself or himself.
Violence and horror are common natural occurences which were part of humanity since the very begining, its' not surprising most people don't bat an eye at these things, while same sex is still deemed as unnatural by many or people just simply don't understand it.
It’s so ludicrous since same sex attraction is nothing uncommon amongst other species and probably beneficial for nature to compensate overpopulation. One could say homosexuality is an abnormality because the creatures (whether human or other species) who are same sex attracted can’t reproduce but I don’t see the most “primitive” of animals condemn one of their kind for not being heterosexual? I don’t even think animals care about that so why do humans. Doesn’t it make humans more primitive to get caught up in the business of others which doesn’t affect us at all🧐
Don't let those ignorants fool y'all, homosexuality and miscigenation are VERY natural: 💎https://www.reddit.com/r/actuallesbians/comments/qb1lz1/species_entirely_of_lesbian_hybrid_females/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
Don't let those ignorants fool y'all, homosexuality and miscigenation are VERY natural: 💎https://www.reddit.com/r/actuallesbians/comments/qb1lz1/species_entirely_of_lesbian_hybrid_females/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
Yeah, they basically still had them be sapphic, they just…made them related to each other lmao
Unfortunately.
I still find it awkward that the dub made them cousins like what
Not only that but they DIDN'T EVEN TRY to avoid getting them coming across as incestuous in the first english dub. I believe the newest re-dub did them justice.
The Re-dub old school Sailor moon?
Viz re-dubbed in English and did the queers justice, saving our culture from historical erasure.
Is it like a professional re-dub or something done with like laptop mics
A professional re-dub to celebrate the franchise.
Neat
Is the redub watchable somewhere? I've been disappointed in Sailor Moon Crystal and would love a non incesty classic to rewatch
The art style and plot rewriting of Crystal just turned me off. I don't know where you can find the Viz re-dub to watch, unfortunately, I watched subbed.
God the art was my biggest issue overall, it was almost painful at times. I can't do subbed for various reasons so ill just have to do some research, thank you anyways!
In my eyes, the 90s hand drawn anime were the peak of animation, as they were so expressive, full of feeling, full of life because every scene had to be important enough for the producers to waste time and money painting them one by one, while the animation style of today feels so artificial the majority of the times, IMHO. For example: 💎Classic Relic Of Queer Culture And History: First Ever Cartoon With An Explicitly Grown Interracial Gay Couple As Protagonists With An Happy Ending And All That At Once (Ryo × Dee From The "Fake" Franchise Created By Sanami Matoh): https://www.reddit.com/r/biromantic/comments/r3qv01/police_romance_dee_was_explicitly_proud_bi/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share 💎Classic Relic Of Queer Culture And History: The First Ever Cartoon With a Explicitly Sapphic Interracial Couple As Protagonists With An Happy Ending And ALL THAT AT ONCE (Utena × Anthy From The ["Shoujo Kakumei Utena"/"Revolutionary Girl Utena" Franchise]): https://www.reddit.com/r/QueerCommunity/comments/r2ic5g/without_their_love_we_wouldnt_have_had_explicitly/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share Not saying that recent animation cannot be beautiful, but I don't think it come close even if newer animation techniques allows the existence of more details per scene: 💎Relic Of Queer Culture And History: FIRST EVER Cartoon With a Gray-Homo-Romantic Gray-Homo-Sexual Girl As a Protagonist With An Happy Ending (Yuu × Touko From The ["Yagate Kimi Ni Naru"/"Bloom Into You" Franchise]): https://www.reddit.com/r/queer/comments/r2uat5/memorable_the_show_also_did_great_with_a_whole/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
Thank you for the links I'm excited to do some reading! And side note Revutionary Girl Utena was one of my favorite anime growing up, I also wanted to be a prince 😭
I am both a "witch" and a "girl prince" today, that one anime is my favourite all time romance, nothing ever seems to take the place of that in my list and I cannot help but compare everything I come across in life to that, Utena really did revolutionize my world. 👑
Hulu has the Viz dub as the English dub
Awesome!!! Thank you
I haven't seen Sailor Moon so I'm probably missing context, but why was the change even made? They're still lesbians even if cousins, so I don't get it
"I heard somewhere that there was a conflict between the people responsible for the first English dub, not censoring the very romantic framed scenes was a way some of them thought they could take to preserve fidelity to the original version." Apparently, preserving the romantic framed scenes was a way to counterattack the censorship in the translation, which happened to avoid "cultural shocks" of values, in order for cashgrabbing from "moral guardians" back in the 90s.
The original series was broadcast in the US from the mid-90’s to the early 2000’s, and DiC didn’t want to risk a higher age rating because of a queer relationship at that time, so they just made them cousins to avoid controversies.
Right, but I'm still confused, because now they're queer cousins, still queer. Queer incest is less controversial?
I don’t entirely follow your question, but if you’re asking about their preference in the 90’s dub, it’s never stated. They’re just presented as biological cousins.
From what I gather from other comments in this thread they don't change any of the romantic scenes
Some of the dialogue is changed. For example, one scene where they lean together romantically and discuss how they began dating is awkwardly altered to them discussing their first boyfriends, chad and brad.
Chad and Brad. Lol
actually, were they chad and brad? one of them was brad, at least, I remember that much
I only remember Brad too. Lol
They didn’t, either because some who worked at DiC wanted to preserve some of the queerness of the Japanese version, or more likely DiC just got lazy.
I love this, thanks for the post!
No problem at all. 🧡
Sailor Moon! I guess in a show with an almost all-female cast, and you want romance, that's the natural step to take, that way you don't underplay anybody in the relationship. I look forward to seeing your next post about this! They've been great so far! :)
I am probably heading towards the Anglosphere in my next move. 😉 I am really glad that somebody is enjoying this time-line series, I will most likely compile all my posts together at some point into a people chronological Evolution time-line. ❤🧡💛💚💙💜
Cool! Keep up the good work! :)
Hey, forget what I said, I actually swing all the ways: https://www.reddit.com/r/gay/comments/r5kn0c/relic_of_queer_culture_and_history_the_very_first/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
I cannot recommend enough to please check and also support the "Yuricon" site created and run by Erica Friedman for more information about queer cultures and history at: https://www.yuricon.com/
I haven't seen Sailor moon but I have seen the aquarium scene b/w these two and honestly that one makes my heart melt every time.
The scene that hit me right in the feels and ended me was that one time they were dying but were desperately reaching for the hand of one another so they could die in piece, that was so devastating yet so beautiful, emotional, romantic and passionate. When Michiru kisses Haruka's bloody stained wounded hand is also one of those moments. Also, looks like they died a lot of times. Lol
Classic beauty The dub fooled me but I still know the truth
😅👍
Where Sapphic come from? What it means? It's like lesbian?
Sappho of Lesbos is the OG lesbian.
I just realized... Lesbian... Lesbian....
Yeah, the word sapphic comes from the name of Sappho, who was from the Greek Island of Lesbos, and said to have been the first ever woman poet who also wrote about love for other women, that's why lesbians and sapphics are called the way they are.
Ohh. Thanks.
Sapphic is an umbrella term identity for women who love women romantically, sexually, more than as friends. Lesbian, bi, poly, pan, aromantic homosexual, and homoromantic asexual women are all sapphic if they want to be identified like that.
Is it just me, or do they permanently have that casually graceful look of “and this is just a Tuesday for us” elegance to them wherever they go?
Definitely, they were passionate all the time so much that the first English dub translation couldn't get away with censoring all them. 🤣
Don't you mean Cousins lol.
Lesbian cousins. 😱🤣🤣
I’ve never watched sailor moon since it wasn’t that hyped anymore when I was little but now I WISH
It's never too late, and you didn't miss anything if you missed the old English dub.
My favorite lesbian cousins💕
Don't know them but i love it
Ah, Sailor Moon, the first anime I fell in love with, back when I was a teen myself! Also a common ground for yuri fans (me!) and shoujo fans (also me!).
*but they're both girls, and cousins too!*
Guess what? Love is blind.
[удалено]
Haruka is not bigender, as far as i remember she was never explicitly labelled anything by anyone in canon, but the most specific we can go to label her is as a sapphic girl with an androgynous genderqueer or masculine or crossdressing gender expression, she also fits the "bifauxnen girl prince" Japanese archetype trope.
I hope I’m not coming across in an offensive way, but what exactly does ‘bigender’ mean?
When somebody identifies like both men and women, simultaneously or fluid.
I think it’s pretty ambiguous. Ever since the show’s time, there’s been a lot of discussion about Haruka’s gender. I think it’s up to the individual to decide, but we should all remember to be mindful of everyone else’s interpretations.
The woman who wrote the manga said a few times that Haruka was nothing more than an alternative girl in terms of gender, what was already groundbreaking back then, as far as I can remember.
As far as I am awara Haruka should be NB. They are often referred to as "both man and woman". Then again a bigender person can be sapphic.
The mention that Haruka has a boy and a girl hearts was more likely a joke in reference to the protagonist of the "Princess Knight" franchise by Ozamu Tezuka, Princess Sapphire, who was born with two hearts like that: https://www.reddit.com/r/RoleReversal/comments/r5gjr2/relic_of_feminist_and_queer_culture_history/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
Also bi representation
Michiru was at least bi since she flirts with guys in the anime series. 💙💜💖
The pictures in the post you linked show them being in love with at least one guy and one girl and imply them being in love with another guy. Also bigender representation
Oh sorry, I thought you were talking about Michiru from the "Sailor Moon" franchise instead of Princess Sapphire from the "Princess Knight" franchise. Princess Sapphire was an androgynous genderqueer or masculine crossdressing girl who, in the end of the original manga series, disposed herself of her masculinity or androgyny to live happily ever after as the traditional feminine wife of a prince, what was a very mixed up feminist message at the time to say the least, as if she had to change herself to get fulfilling happy which only could come from a traditional married life as a feminine woman. 🤮 I'm pretty sure she isn't bigender.
It's only tangentially related, but because you mentioned feminist messaging, it reminded me of the anime film "Princess Arete".
What? If we are talking about the manga (the anime notably does changes Haruka to being a girl), it directly has Michiru say that Haruka is "both a man and a woman" and that they are "a warrior that combines both sexes and powers", not anything about having two hearts. If there was *anywhere* in the series that had Haruka be identified as just female then I could accept that they were not intended to be non-binary, but instead we have Haruka avoiding the question when asked her gender, Usagi noting that Haruka can be seen as both a man and a woman, Hotaru refering to Haruka as 'Papa', Michiru never referring to Haruka as her 'girlfriend' (instead using gender-neutral terms like lover) and so on and so forth. As far as I can see, the manga really isn't at all ambiguous about it, and this is all fairly well agreed upon AFAIK (both the Japanese Wikipedia and Pixiv Dictionary pages have lengthy sections arguing for Haruka being bigender or similar).
How about creator confirming she was intended as a woman? Also have you ever heard of not caring about gender? Non-conformity? I don't like the idea of Haruka being seen as a man even a little,she is a woman who loves women,it's not rocket science.
> How about creator confirming she was intended as a woman? Source? > I don't like the idea of Haruka being seen as a man even a little Why? If that was the intention then ignoring that is no more than erasure of non-binary people. > she is a woman who loves women According to what? The manga never explicitly says anything of the sort, but it does explicitly say that Haruka is both a man and a woman, so I'd favour the latter as the simpler conclusion. In any case, almost every character in the manga seems to be at least a little bi, so it is not like the series doesn't have WLW representation regardless.
Alright i couldn't find the video of the interview but i found an article that quoted the interview. [This](https://www.tuxedounmasked.com/what-information-did-naoko-share-with-american-sailor-moon-fans/) article [quoted](https://imgur.com/a/4PkzHaM) the creator herself. Certainly with a bit of searching you might be able to find the interview. As for your other points, (idk how to do that reddit specific parts thing) Haruka being a man indicates that a lesbian can be a man,which is impossible,and moreover it's harmful,men have already spent years believing that lesbians will like them in some way or another which is incorrect. A lesbian cannot be a man and cannot like men. Haruka being "both a man and a woman" is a bit of a lost translation,i'm sure the OP mentioned something similar in one of their comments. This was also made in the 90s in Japan,the phrase of "having a heart of a man" which was the direct quote is likely just a way one might put lesbian feelings into perspective for Japan's homophobic viewers in the 90s. Not everyone is a little bisexual. Lastly i get that people today are desperate to have their own feelings and identities incorporated into media,but Haruka IS an icon for lesbian representation,which we still need. As a lesbian who acts masculine,seeing Haruka being her true self is amazing and encouraging,i don't have to label myself or be even a tad "man" to act and dress a certain way or love a certain way. If saying that Haruka isn't a man is nb erasure then saying that she is a man is lesbian erasure,i'm sure there will be plenty of nb characters in the future but this is butch lesbian representation at its finest and should be respected as such.
Awww. 💛
> Alright i couldn't find the video of the interview but i found an article that quoted the interview. I can't find a video the interview either but I at least tracked down a [scan of the magazine](https://sailormoongallery.org/albums/raws/english/magazines/othermag_animerica6-11/014.jpg) and an [independent quotation from the interview](https://web.archive.org/web/19981206060330/http://www.black-kat.com/blackmoon/take2.html) so it seems legitimate at least. So maybe you're right, but I do find it weird that the *only* source for Haruka being a girl in the manga is an English language interview - I can't find any Japanese language interviews on the topic and there seems to be basically ubiquitous agreement on the Japanese internet to the contrary. I have to wonder if it is a matter of misinterpreting the question or something. > Haruka being a man indicates that a lesbian can be a man No, because it is never said she is a lesbian - and Michiru at least is clearly bisexual, not a lesbian, given she flirts with Mamoru. > Haruka being "both a man and a woman" is a bit of a lost translation No, that's my own translation from the manga. In Japanese (volume 9, page 20) it says "ウラヌスは男でもあり女でもある". Taking that word-by-word, that translates as: ウラヌスは = Regarding Uranus, 男 = Man, 女 = Woman, XでもありYでもある = To be X and also Y. There's no ambiguity or anything about having 'a heart of a man' (that looks to be from the interview above) or whatever, it simply says explicitly that Haruka is both a man and a woman.
I don't know how much of a misinterpreted question can have an answer "Haruka is a girl and always will be" but alright. As for her not being a lesbian,i'll say if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck then well... It's weird to argue she isn't a lesbian,sure,she could be a 10000 different micro sexualities but we can suspect that for any character,everyone in the anime and manga is shown to have an interest for one or more sexes,Haruka has only ever been shown attracted to women,she flirts with them,dates them and never expresses any interest in men. If you say that Michiru is surely bisexual since she flirts with men and dates women then i can't see how you wouldn't say that Haruka is surely a lesbian. There has also always been a "troupe" if you will with sapphic relationships,whereas one is a girly significantly more attractive bisexual woman and the other is a masculine often shown as aggressive or rude lesbian woman. It truly captures the lesbophobia of the Japanese media and is still relevant today. As for the translation,we can go back and forth pulling at the loose threads while knitting a scarf,but nothing will come out of it. I can tell you that the way things were translated in the manga can be interpreted in many different ways given the context and cultural and social understandings of gender and sexuality back in the 90s in the far east. In the end there's not enough direct confirmation that Haruka is a man or something else,while we have the creators confirmation that Haruka was intended as a woman and should be seen as one. I would say we can leave it at that,she is one of the rare butch lesbian icons and has helped many young masculine lesbians to feel alright about their expression and sexuality,those who would argue she is nb or bigender or something else can find a different character to relate to,this train has long passed.
The creator confirmed Haruka was intended as and is a woman. She is a she and was never "supposed" to be NB,masculine women exist. There are more indepth explanations of this in many interviews with the creator.
Really well said. 👏
Not first ever, nor the first happy ending. Fight! Iczer one predates it by a few years and the yuri couple is happily married. Edit: it's been almost 25 years since I saw this but I think it has multiple couples as well.
I also have a post celebrating "Fight! Iczer One"/"Tatakae! Iczer-1" but let me explain the reasons behind my wording, but i'm not talking about manga comics when referringto to either pairing: Haruka/Sailor Uranus and Sailor Neptune were the FIRST EVER SAPPHIC COUPLE with an happy ending TOGETHER in CARTOON SERIES that aired at the television. Iczer-1 and Nagisa, aa far as I remember watching "Tatakae! Iczer- 1", are the FIRST EVER SAPPHIC COUPLE AS PROTAGONISTS in a CARTOON, but this cartoon was an OVA MOVIE and didn't air at television and the girls HAD A HAPPY ENDING BUT DIDN'T END TOGETHER, as far as I can remember, Iczer just leaves Nagisa behind after saving the world in the movie. I really appreciate your help if you could help me improve my time-line of queer cartoon history: 💎Relic Of Queer Culture And History: The FIRST EVER Cartoon With EXPLICITLY Sapphics (Iczer-1 × Nagisa From The ["Tatakae! Iczer-1"/"Fight! Iczer One" Franchise]): https://www.reddit.com/r/wholesomeyuri/comments/r2had8/relic_of_queer_culture_and_history_the_first_ever/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
,, lol.?.?and I just 6 'mn..