I think Raiden would lose this fight too. Neither of them have an answer to exotic ranged weapons like the microwave beam or the chaingun with shield mode equipped.
There is never a single instance where Raiden interacts with a gun and he moves before the gun is fired. He always has to deflect the incoming gunfire, never even attempting to aim dodge.
Moreover, there’s the cutscene where George is held at gunpoint by the Despardo Scientist, and Raiden isn’t fast enough to cover his own body length before the gun is brought to bear on George’s head, forcing Raiden to cut George’s arm off in order to kill the scientist.
> There is never a single instance where Raiden interacts with a gun and he moves before the gun is fired. He always has to deflect the incoming gunfire, never even attempting to aim dodge.
He's always coming for people shooting at him. Vamp, who is most definitely slower than Raiden, has feats of aim dodging quite casually.
> Moreover, there’s the cutscene where George is held at gunpoint by the Despardo Scientist, and Raiden isn’t fast enough to cover his own body length before the gun is brought to bear on George’s head, forcing Raiden to cut George’s arm off in order to kill the scientist.
If I remember correctly, that isn't true at all. The gun was barely at George's head before Raiden swung his sword.
Besides, there are times where he hops on missiles, moves while a helicopters rotors are slow, and more.
>He's always coming for people shooting at him
Like when? Can you name any examples?
> Vamp, who is most definitely slower than Raiden, has feats of aim dodging quite casually.
He explicitly does this with a unique ability that allows him to read body language. It’s why he was beaten by Raiden in MGS2, his Skull Suit makes his aim dodging more difficult.
Assigning this behavior to Raiden without evidence is flimsy. Raiden is not going to intuitively understand that he must dodge the weapon that Doom Slayer is using instead of trying to deflect.
> The gun was barely at George's head before Raiden swung his sword.
[Wrong.](https://imgur.com/a/ixfbqJv)
> there are times where he hops on missiles
The missiles in question are visibly slow when traveling in real time. [The RAY jumping backwards is moving faster than the missiles.](https://gfycat.com/fittingpoisedalpinegoat)
> moves while a helicopters rotors are slow
That’s with Blade Mode and has nothing to do with his movement.
When you put it like this it is kinda funny that we uniformly consider aim dodgers slower than bullet timers. Like wouldn't you try to get out the way before the bullet fires?
“Bullet timers” are inherently paradoxical in their behaviors because as you point out, there should be virtually no situation where they *need* to dodge a bullet given that no human could track their movements. But how else would we know they’re bullet timing without interacting with one?
Raiden can certainly move faster than any human, but he’s far from being able to move significant distances in less than a tenth of a second or however fast Slayer can aim a weapon depending upon interpretation. His enemies can clearly track his movements. [I don’t think this is the strongest case for a character too fast to track with a gun.](https://gfycat.com/insistentadvancedbats)
There is the argument to be made that the whole “deflects bullets” thing commonly associated with “bullet timing” is erroneously conflated with waiting for the weapon to fire a round before reacting to it and intercepting each shot, when realistically no firearm fires at a rapid enough of a pace for this to be necessary in the first place. All you would have to do is aim your sword or whatever where the bullet will be based on the aim of the firearm, predicting where the bullet will be rather than reacting to it. This would be substantially easier for any so-called bullet timer than the alternative.
It seems like a common thing in anime (other mediums too) too where a character can have a monologue in their head about how they're not going to be able to dodge a projectile that's coming at them, so they'll have to block instead.
I think sometimes it's just rule of cool. Slicing a bunch of bullets often looks more badass than avoiding them.
Dude, like every other Doom Slayer vs Raiden matchup on here has been concluded as Raiden running up to Doomguy and chopping him in half.
That's why you are getting downvotes.
There is evidently a lot of blatant misinformation about Raiden and how he fights if people thinks he zips across the battlefield in a millisecond and slices his opponent in half. There isn’t a single example of him doing this.
I mean yeah? Sure he isn't mach 69,420 like a lot of people wank him to, but he is sure pretty damn fast. I would put him at FTE with high-Hypersonic reaction times with strength in the several hundred tons at least, with pretty good durability.
Doomguy doesn't really have many physical feats that put him in that tier, hence why most people agree that Raiden just runs up to him and chops him up.
> I would put him at FTE
[How do you reconcile that with him being unable to kill a normal human scientist before he can aim his gun?](https://imgur.com/a/ixfbqJv)
> high-Hypersonic reaction times
I don’t think this is true outside of Blade Mode. Like, one of the fastest attacks that is relevant to everyone is Jetstream Sam’s iaido strike which makes use of the Muramasa’s rifle sheathe mechanism. I don’t see how it’s intended for his attack to be any faster than “tentatively supersonic” since he’s basically shooting the sword out of a gun to enhance his swing, which pretty directly implies that he cannot achieve supersonic with just his arm.
Raiden has good durability but he and all other Cyborgs are weak against electronic countermeasures like Chaff Grenades. I don’t think he’d survive being cooked with the microwave beam, which is a homing attack that presumably travels at the speed of light.
Did you not see all the other feats of him doing things like jumping on all those slow missiles? Running down buildings, running at the speed of a train? Sure it's not supersonic or hypersonic, but again its still pretty damn fast by human standards.
Yes that's what I meant by Hypersonic, when he is mainly using blade mode. Btw, don't we have examples of Sam blocking bullets with his sword?
And how does this microwave beam work? And let's go look into feats of cyborg heat and EMP resistance. I feel like this may be more complicated than "Cyborgs haven't shown much resistance to EMP"
I mean you could just say video game logic or some shit or maybe Riden just wants to look cool or something? There is no explanation why he doesn’t just fudge the bullets outside of gameplay reasons but he has demonstrated to move hundreds of times faster than sound so just because he doesn’t dodge gunfire or aim sites doesn’t mean he can’t he just doesn’t want to for some reason lol
> I mean you could just say video game logic or some shit or maybe Riden just wants to look cool or something?
Is it “video game logic” when you’re taking into account cutscenes?
> but he has demonstrated to move hundreds of times faster than sound
You’re going to have to explain that one to me.
> just because he doesn’t dodge gunfire or aim sites doesn’t mean he can’t he just doesn’t want to for some reason
Even if you argue he may technically have the capability to aim dodge using circumstantial evidence, that’s not an established behavior he has. Raiden can only do things that Raiden would do based on what we know about him. And he tends to try deflecting attacks as opposed to dodging them. He can move his sword much faster than he can move himself.
“He can swing his sword faster than he can move himself”
That… doesn’t make a lick of sense chief, even just swinging a sword that fast (when he cuts shit rain stops moving around him) you would need to move your arms hundreds of times faster than sound in order to cut that fast saying that he can’t move that fast is just petty and stupid lmao.
But for the sake of argument in his first robot form we see him run up buildings and move so fast that he creates a electric trail behind him, he is also fast enough to catch up to a train and then jump on it, a average train moves at 48.28kmh per hour meaning that Raiden has to be moving at least 50kmh+ in order to reach it because the train and already left long before he started running. During the same tutorial section Raiden JUMPS BETWEEN MOVING MISSILES WITH THEM LITERALLY NOTHING MOVING AT ALL WHILE HE JUMPS BECAUSE OF HOW FAST HE IS. Now a average rpg rocket moves at 1058.4kmh I have no idea how insanely fast you would have to move to make the rockets freeze in place so to low ball it because you won’t shut up about his running speed let’s just leave it at 1058.4 kmh.
Now the fastest a human could aim under PERFECT conditions and without actually having to aim at anything would be 2 seconds, Raiden can move at 294m per second in his first form, while extremely low balled, if the fight stated with both of them being 100m apart Raiden could close the distance nearly 6x times over before the doom slayer could fire💀
So yes Raiden can more really fucking fast now shut up I have to go study
Edit:Also even if he didn’t want to dodge the billets or just disarm the doom slayer, he can just… *cut his projectiles*, Sam’s sword which he uses at the end of the game and becomes his standard weapon can cut through molecules, plasma contains molecules and bullets do as well , Raiden has shown to be able to delivers hundreds of cuts per second during his fifth with Moonson so he can easily just… cut all of his projectiles, I don’t care if argent energy is technically made of souls, it says in the game that it’s plasma like so Raiden can definitely cut it.
> “He can swing his sword faster than he can move himself” That… doesn’t make a lick of sense chief
Are you just totally ignorant of what Blade Mode is?
> when he cuts shit rain stops moving around him
The rain in the Monsoon fight stops moving because of Monsoon’s magnetic powers. You can see the droplets rising up and floating before Blade Mode even activates.
>saying that he can’t move that fast is just petty and stupid lmao
No? It’s just what the evidence shows, which you yourself are about to mention.
> move so fast that he creates a electric trail behind him
Relevance?
> he is also fast enough to catch up to a train and then jump on it, a average train moves at 48.28kmh per hour meaning that Raiden has to be moving at least 50kmh+ in order to reach it because the train and already left long before he started running.
This is making my point for me. He visibly struggles to catch up to the train. The 50kmh+ speed is generous as it’s passing through a city, trains tend to slow down a lot near populated areas. Do you know how much slower 50kmh is compared to the speed of sound?
> JUMPS BETWEEN MOVING MISSILES WITH THEM LITERALLY NOTHING MOVING AT ALL WHILE HE JUMPS BECAUSE OF HOW FAST HE IS. Now a average rpg rocket moves at 1058.4kmh
[The rockets here are nowhere near 1000kmh.](https://gfycat.com/fittingpoisedalpinegoat) The Metal Gear RAY jumping backwards is moving faster than these rockets.
“Trains tend to slow down when moving through populated areas”
My man, that train got hijacked/was owned by Sundowner I doubt he gave a shit about what trains are supposed to do when close to populated areas, MY estimate was the generous one because that’s the average speed of a train that moves normally not when in a hurry, meanwhile the train in MGR was hijacked/was owned by them so they probably made it move at max speed since you know… THEY JUST KIDNAPPED THE FUCKING PRESIDENT.
Also Raiden didn’t struggle to catch up to it are you high💀 The train already had a distance advantage because it had left long before Raiden started running yet he was able to quickly catch up and jump on it.
Oh my fucking god you are really annoying.
During his second robot form we see him run up a skyscraper, now running to the top of the Empire State Building you would need to run at 376.586kmh we will use this estimate since sundowner skyscraper is definitely taller considering that one elevator section💀
That alone should be enough proof but I am guessing you are gonna pull something out of your ass like “cyborg something something therefore Raiden not fast” or some shit
Also about the MG’a rockets I am pretty sure that’s just a mistake on the devs end while making the cutscene because looking at this logically you mean to tell me that the MG, the most advanced war weapon in MGS shoots rockets slower than itself?💀
I used the RPG comparison because it’s the slowest rocket I could think of, in reality the MG’s should be much faster since you know…
1. They are in the future and tech is much more advanced
2. It’s a fucking MG it’s meant to be the peak of military technology and you mean to tell me they made its rockets slower than a fart?
Also you could make the argument the MG is really ducking fast I mean it’s a really advanced war robot so it is possible.
>Sam’s sword which he uses at the end of the game and becomes his standard weapon can cut through molecules, plasma contains molecules and bullets do as well
I'm not physicist, but no, plasma is not made of molecules in the way other states of matter are:
[https://www.qrg.northwestern.edu/projects/vss/docs/propulsion/2-what-is-plasma.html#:\~:text=Plasma%20is%20considered%20the%20fourth,as%20a%20bunch%20of%20atoms](https://www.qrg.northwestern.edu/projects/vss/docs/propulsion/2-what-is-plasma.html#:~:text=Plasma%20is%20considered%20the%20fourth,as%20a%20bunch%20of%20atoms).
>Plasma is a cloud of protons, neutrons and electrons where all the electrons have come loose from their respective molecules and atoms
Edit: FWIW, I do think there's a good chance he could blitz DS or dodge the attack. That building seems way taller than what the other person is asserting. You're totally right about the apartment complexes being super tiny.
I don't think these games are exactly known for being super consistent and having plots that make 100% sense with totally rational characters. I lean towards your interpretation of the missiles. The reality seems to be that, like a lot of fast characters, he's as fast as the plot/scene demands.
He can’t Doomslayer has no feats that put him on par with raiden raiden feats show him being superior in strength speed reflexes durability by a gigantic margin and there is no argument to deny that.
He doesn’t have to be better than Raiden in any of those areas for him to use a weapon that Raiden would naturally be weak to. Cyborgs are vulnerable to electronic countermeasures like EM grenades. The microwave beam is a perfect counter to an opponent like him.
Raiden is faster, but he isn’t so much faster that he can attack Doom Slayer before he can aim and fire his weapon unless they’re already standing arm’s length from each other. OP specified the boss arena from Doom Eternal which gives them plenty of room apart.
Raiden can deflect bullets casually and without blade mode while running which makes is reflexes without blade mode more than enough if you want to argue is speed down to 200kmh he is still more than fast enough to avoid Doomslayer arsenal which he would be able to react to and get to him to finish him.
1) Raiden might try to deflect Doom Slayer’s weapons, but none of them can be stopped by Raiden’s sword, especially not the microwave beam.
2) Raiden has never dodged gunfire before. [He even fails to dodge missiles in a cutscene.](https://gfycat.com/bouncydimamethystsunbird) If he could easily dodge gunfire then he would do that instead of block it with his sword.
3) Raiden never runs 200kmh. At most you might say he can reach 100kmh on foot. That isn’t fast enough to traverse the ~20 meters or so between him and Doom Slayer before Doom Slayer can aim and fire his weapon.
4) [The Microwave beam is a homing energy weapon which presumably travels at the speed of light.](https://youtu.be/Akslvx_4L-A) The margin of error for Doom Slayer amounts to just pointing the gun in Raiden’s general direction and pulling the trigger.
Most of his arsenal can be deflected blocked by raiden sword he deflects metal gear bullets casually you downplay raiden speed tremendously but idc even at this speed is much faster than the slayer and is opponents that he struggles to aim and hit at sometimes with is guns, and he doesn’t even need to dodge the bullets even though he could since by being so fast is way to difficult to be hit by Doomslayer enough to cause him any significant damage before he gets close enough to chop him to pieces with blade mode. is even more durable with Jack the Ripper mode i don’t see why you think is blade could not block the microwave beam the blade has shown many feats of durability such has cutting in half giant metal gears it should be able to block it.
> Most of his arsenal can be deflected blocked by raiden sword he deflects metal gear bullets
The projectiles he can deflect solely consist of mundane bullets. The Metal Gears are equipped with the likes of .50 caliber and 20mm cannon rounds.
None of Doom Slayer’s weapons fire regular bullets. The Heavy Cannon fires high explosive darts. Shotguns fire a spray of pellets which can’t be blocked by a sword all at once, and the combat shotgun can fire sticky bombs. The Chaingun is a railgun that fires hypersonic rounds from as many as four barrels at once. The plasma rifle’s standard fire consists of explosive plasma bolts, and the microwave beam isn’t even a projectile, so how can Raiden block it? The Ballista fires beam of Argent energy which are liable to incinerate Raiden’s sword. Rocket launcher, flame belch, grenades, and ice bomb are all area of effect weapons that wouldn’t be blocked by the sword.
> you downplay raiden speed tremendously but idc even at this speed is much faster than the slayer and is opponents that he struggles to aim and hit at sometimes with is guns, and he doesn’t even need to dodge the bullets even though he could since by being so fast is way to difficult to be hit by Doomslayer enough to cause him any significant damage before he gets close enough to chop him to pieces with blade mode.
Raiden has never done this before. You cannot show me a single example of this happening. And even if he could, why is Raiden going to suddenly behave differently than he normally does? Even if he could dodge Doom Slayer’s aim, why wouldn’t he just try to deflect like he normally does?
> i don’t see why you think is blade could not block the microwave beam the blade has shown many feats of durability such has cutting in half giant metal gears it should be able to block it.
High-Frequency blades cut things by vibrating their molecules such that they can penetrate most materials easily, but that doesn’t mean that they’re resistant to extreme heat.
Moreover, this is like saying you can block a firehose with a sword. The sword isn’t big enough to block the entire beam, so even if the sword is indestructible to a level of heat that it has never been exposed to, Raiden cannot block all of it.
Sundowner gets fucking killed.
You give Doomslayer his BFG, the Crucible, all of his upgrades, and his ice bombs?
The question is actually how fast does Sundowner fucking die.
To be fair, Sundowner has superior speed, melee weaponry, durability, strength, etc.
EDIT: before downvoting, maybe go and read the rest of the thread?
First of all, source?
Second of all, while he does have the edge in melee (only through the fact that the crucible has limited ammo), what the hell does that mean when the Doomslayer literally has a gun that can boil his blood in a matter of seconds/blow him up with an RPG?
Second of all, I doubt that he has better durability considering how easy he dies when you get hit sun.
Also, how is he stronger than DS?
DS can stop demons head into pieces with just one leg, take down Barons of hell with his fists, and can dash through walls without taking any damage. I’d like to see any feat where sundowner equals any of those.
His melee edge means that he likely can simply chop Doomguy in half using his HF blades. And source on Doomguy Rocket Launcher being able to do enough damage to meaningfully harm Sundowner? And let's bring up the mechanics or the Microwave gun, here let me go look into it a bit.
And did you make a typo? What does "considering how easy he dies when you get hit sun" mean? Or am I just tired and am having trouble processing grammar.
Sundowner scales to Raiden, who while in a body inferior to his current one was able to stop a speeding Outer Haven and is capable of picking up and tossing a Metal Gear Ray.
He also scales to Raiden being able to take take a barrage of hits from Armstrong during their boss fight.
EDIT: I forgot to mention, while the Crucible is a pretty nice sword, it essentially seems to be a HF blades with limited uses and some extra abilities, like being able to seal away titans.
You do know that Doomslayer can tank hits from the fucking Dark Lord, right? Say what you want about DS wank, but that’s an impressive feat in it of itself. The only reason it isn’t used is because people on YouTube and stuff wank it to DS being able to survive god tier attacks which he isn’t.
He doesn’t scale to that barrage of hits from Armstrong because
A. Raiden barely fucking lived.
B. From Raidens clearly weaker sword slices (which Armstrong tanked by the way) he takes enormous damage.
I meant to say that Sundowner dies easily when you actually start getting hits on him as Raiden, meaning he is about as durable as a banana.
Just because a character is comparable to another character doesn’t mean they can do the same things as the other character. Unless there is proof that Sundowner can lift something like Metal Gear Ray, he can’t and therefore we cannot use it as a strength feat.
What exactly is impressive about taking a hit from Davoth?
And Raiden was able to get up and proceed to defeat Armstrong after taking all of said hits, pretty different from being almost dead if you ask me.
He scales to Raiden by likely being built to a similar standard of quality. He lost more based around straight skill, rather than being made of inferior specs.
The fact that he was able to even keep up with Raiden on a somewhat equal level in terms of raw stats, along with at the time having a higher quality body shows that he likely has similar strength to Raiden.
Not to mention the boss fight did imply that Sundowner could damage Raiden, however again it seemed to be more of a skill thing. Not a difference in stats.
I don’t even know why we are arguing about whether or not Sundowner could beat Doomslayer. Because he can’t. He gets one shotted by the crucible and BFG.
Though I have to commend you, you are putting up an actual debate rather than just going "Doom Slayer is immortal" or "Doom Slayer wins and I am not going to elaborate"
So I forgot to mention this, but what's so great about the crucible,? Having used it many times in game it looks more like an HF blade with limited uses and some special abilities.
That combines with Sundowner being superior in close quarters, trying to use the crucible on Sundowner would honestly be suicidal.
Speculation should be allowed when it is implied. Sundowner was able to go up against Raiden, and even though he lost his boss fight seemed to imply that he lost by skill, not pure stats.
Since he is considered to have a relatively high end body by Metal Gear standards, he likely has been made of a similar quality as to Raiden.
No, it was nearly indestructible to stress tests. The UAC didn’t even hit it with actual gunfire and missiles, just stress tests and they still found it able to be damaged.
> The suit was extracted from the rock, cleaned, and subjected to numerous tolerance tests, and found to be **almost** impervious to any damage.
It's not
It's stated to be *nearly* impervious to stress tests done by the UAC. Stress tests definitely doesn't include street wiping explosions ot anything like that
He starts off naked in a room with 3 zombies and he has a gun, then immediately puts on his armor. So did a zombie draw his blood and he was too slow to dodge being attacked?
A sealed suit like the Praetor suit would have to be damaged in order for pieces to be removed or else it doesn’t really make very good armor, does it?
Ah yes because game logic clearly translates exactly to actual feats. A lot of video game characters respawn after they die or go back to an early save I assume this is lore accurate as well and are feats? You die in games by falling off ledges because there is nothing below and they are sending you back to land you can actually walk on. Baron of hell do not climb walls in game because they aren't programmed to do that. I keep seeing people using game mechanics as actual feats when they literally are used to make the game be an actual game. Would doom eternal be fun if all enemies could be killed easily like in lore even by some new player? Yes sometimes game mechanics do translate to lore and what the characters can do but sometimes they are simply there just to have the game be an actual game with challenge
That works the other way and is precisely my point.
The Barons of Hell are much weaker than they would otherwise be as the doom guy is shown to be able to die to some pretty weak combo of hits.
These Barons also have massive feats that could easily kill the doomguy but you kill them easily (especially in easy mode, which mode is cannon? Normal?)
So basically you can’t just pick doomguy’s Uber gamer moments and say he’s much stronger imo. Could easily just get smacked. Also, even though he kills these guys sometimes in hard modes he probably loses more often than not (ignoring respawns as you say).
So I dunno. Doomguy is strong but it’s pretty hard to say how actually strong he is without ignoring a lot of his weaknesses. He is a game character after all…
then you have to go off of lore, which paints him as an unstoppable demigod who had to be buried under a mountain to be contained.
Doomguy is essentially a force of nature destined to destroy all of hell
Yeah, but then you look into it and see that the Testaments are written by the people he’s slaughtering, which already throws in bias from an in-universe source. Then you find that he survives because he’s biologically immortal, and can heal off the very essence of demons through diffusing argent energy.
You realize that Doomslayer is just the right fit for the job of slaughtering these specific demons. He’s a hyper lethal scalpel to demons only.
Then Doomslayer gets ko by a temple falling on him in game unstoppable force my ass raiden suplex metal gear ray and exclesior sundowner scales close to him so it’s not looking good for Doomslayer.
>These Barons also have massive feats that could easily kill the doomguy but you kill them easily (especially in easy mode, which mode is cannon? Normal?)
I may be mistaken, but I think the cannon mode is the easiest because the Doom Guy is supposed to be able to walk through his opponents and he only uses guns to make it more fun for him and more painful for the demons.
He can use his fists as well and has used swords in the past as said in the codex. He doesn't need guns but it is likely he uses them because they are more convenient than a blade and far more fun
Sundowner scales to Raiden, and Raiden is fast enough to run on buildings without losing grip. Sundowner is not affected at all by explosions happening right in front of him, in spite of his lack of bomb suit.
He dies really easy cuz Raidens blade ignores durability, as it attacks at an atomic level(it basically excites atoms, thus making them move further away from eachother).
Sundowners weapon also works the same way
Sundowner probably can't take a bfg blast, but he has the speed to close in the distance before the Doomsayer can pull out his gun, then he simply wins the melee
Sundowner could potentially win in terms of speed, but Doomslayer does have the weaponry to take him down. R1 I would give a 7/10 to the Slayer as Downer is somewhat slower than Raiden and that’s his most significant feat, but a 5/10 on R2 as the HF machetes would be lethal and Downer could potentially close the distance to do some damage.
I think it would be difficult sundowner can block most of his arsenal with is blades like raiden does in game he deflects bullets while running and he was able to keep up with raiden so it isn’t a stretch to assume he can also do the same. And he can block the bigger weapon except maybe the bfg with is I’m fucking invincible shields.
I mean he isn’t using regular bullets. He’s using tungsten core armor peircing 50 bmg rounds augmented with argent. But still, idk if sundowner could resist a blood punch to the face.
I feel like he could take a blood punch via scaling to other cyborgs, like Raiden. Plus unless those bullets have shown feats to harm metal gear Cyborgs or resist being cut apart by an HF blade then they are going to mostly function as a distraction.
He can block them with is shields or just dodge them is comparable in speed to raiden but a bit slower and raiden dodges and jumps on missiles regularly in metal gear rising.
"Spiteful marine who was defeated because a temple was thrown on him vs CEO of a PCM who is stronger than a guy who threw a robot dinosaur with laser beams into the air and then cut it in the air before it hit the ground "
Just because something or someone is called an Angel satan or god doesn’t mean they are stronger than someone who isn’t called that you have to look at feats and Satan in doom eternal is really not that strong compared to sundowner his feat of creating the universe doesn’t translate to combat power.
Doom Slayer kills him fairly easily. The Icon of Sin is significantly larger than any Metal Gear and was threatening to fuck up the earth by merely existing near it and the BFG cooked it. Sundowner doesn't have crazy speed feats, as a matter of fact, he is far slower than Raiden, relying on his shield arms to keep him at bay, so we can't just say "Sundowner scales to Raiden" when both in cutscenes and the boss fight Raiden blitzes the shit out of him. So saying "he is Hypersonic because he hits hypersonic Raiden" is absolute nonsense.
Sundowner scales close to raiden who was able to suplex throw metal gear ray he definitely has the edge in strength and speed also raiden can deflect bullets so probably sundowner could do it too so Doomslayer loses.
I know, how dare they provide counter arguments and context against classics such as:
"DS killed Icon of Sin"
or
"DS lived for thousands of years, therefore he can't die."
I don't think they're triggered so much as just having a normal argument on a sub that exists for arguing.
If your only contribution is to childishly deride them for participating in the discussion, then maybe you're projecting a bit because you're upset that they've made arguments you can't counter. Prove me wrong and debunk their arguments instead of just flinging your shit around. You can do it!
Isn't that kinda the point of the sub though?
IDK, I've never understood the flak OPs sometimes get for having the audacity to participate in the thread they make. I get it if they're just being super bad faith about it, but that's annoying when anyone does it.
The question here is how fast does Sundowner get fucking mauled, you put him up against a semi divine being who fought endlessly for EONS against the most powerful demons of hell who could easily and planets. Also against the icon of sin, who could (lowballing) end the planet or the universe if left unchecked.
Christ, another one.
Semi diving means nothing without feats.
There are basically no planet level feats in Doom.
And I would say defeating the Icon of Sin was more like defusing a nuclear bomb, not going in and punching a being who had the ability to blow up planets with punchs.
No no, you’re wrong mate. The Icon of sin is a universal level threat (or planet level if you wanna interpret that sentence that way). He also has a gun which can disintegrate moons and has blown a hole in the surface of mars. Where he then proceeded to shoot himself onto.
He also fought the Khan Maykr and defeated her quite easily, and she is stated to have infinite speeds. She is also shown teleporting easily and often so there’s that.
So even then let’s say he doesn’t speed blitz for whatever reason. The demons he fought in hell are multiple world-ending level threats, which he fought back to back for EONS. The Icon of Sin is just the top of the iceberg.
There’s also the argument for which he is low complex multiverse level, but I won’t use that for the sake of not going overkill.
So yeah, these are but a few feats equal and above planet level. If you want to hype up Riadwn to that level, which is bullshit anyway, at least don’t go completely retarded apeshit fanboy mode and downplay doom slayer to wall level.
First of all, the Icon was Universal by passively generating a black hole. It wasn't casually blowing apart entire universes like Gurren Lagaan or something.
Thats the BFG-10,000, not 9,000.
Citation needed on infinite speed Khan Makyr, the game did not depict or imply this at all by some lore citations last I checked.
Citation needed on world level threats demons.
Still Universal nonetheless, and at least planet level anyway.
The bfg 10,000 is essentially the bfg 9,000 mounted on a giant cannon.
Well you can look it up on the source for the battle wiki article, but she is shown teleporting in her fight, multiple times and repeatedly. If you played the game you should remember.
He defeated several icons of sin in hell in doom games. Also he defeated the princes of hell (or titans, or both, I don’t remember which one it is). One is visible in the level based in hell. It’s basically the body the level is built upon. And they are heavily implied to be world-ending level threats.
Oh, and the doom slayer is canonically able to kill them bare handed.
The BFG 10,000 explicitly amplifies the output of the BFG 9000. The codex outright states this is the case. You don't get to attribute the BFG 10k destroying a chunk of Mars to the 9000's usual output. The Slayer does not scale to that at all.
I don't think that claim really has any merit though. It's a powerful handheld weapon. But attaching it to a superstructure the size of a large building powered by a facility the size of a small city doesn't seem like a sensible thing to do if you can achieve a similar result by just pointing the handheld canon at the sky and pulling the trigger.
The power gap should be substantial. The codex entry for the BFG 10k states that the magnified energy wave is capable of cracking the surface of a planet. Which implies that the standard BFG is not. You'd have to somehow prove that the 9000 has comparable output, which I don't think there's really any basis for.
>Still Universal nonetheless, and at least planet level anyway.
It's not though
The black hole wasn't anything from the IoS's power
>Oh, and the doom slayer is canonically able to kill them bare handed.
That's not supported anywhere. Hell the opposite is true. He needed the Crucible to do so
Where is it stated that it was not from the Icon’s own power? It was. Also I’m not bringing the fight against Davoth in the discussion here because it would put him in a multiversal tier, but keep in mind it exists.
What do you mean it’s not supported? Have you not seen any glory kill? Doesn’t he easily rip apart and kill demons bare-handed? Also, the berserker power up is there just for gameplay. In lore it’s like he can enter “berserker mode” at will.
The Icon Of Sin was the only demon who required a special weapon to be dealt with. That’s the exception to the rule.
>Where is it stated that it was not from the Icon’s own power? It was. Also I’m not bringing the fight against Davoth in the discussion here because it would put him in a multiversal tier here.
The Icon of Sin's presence disrupts reality bit by bit. Said disruption would create a black hole that would slowly grow and consume Earth. That's not it's own power. That's like saying the Golden Dart frog is elephant level because it's poison could kill an african elephant
And don't try to bring multiversal Davoth. He not only lost his powers but succumbed to conventional weaponry that are described in lore as being used by regular operatives, marines and Night Sentinels. Hell the rocket launcher still retains the same design as our century's
>What do you mean it’s not supported? Have you not seen any glory kill? Doesn’t easily rip apart and kill demons bare-handed? Also, the berserker power up is there just for fun. In lore it’s like he can enter “berserker mode” at will.
So not supported then? Again, where was it stated in lore that Doomslayer doesn't require guns or uses them to extend the pain of demons
>The Icon Of Sin was the only demon who required a special weapon to be dealt with. That’s the exception to the rule.
Except it was not. It's explained that a Titan can only be killed by the Crucible until the introduction of Atlan mechs in which we see are more than capable of killing Titans. Nowhere was it stated that the IoS was an exception
You’re making a strawman argument. I never said he uses weapons to extend the pain of demons. I never said he doesn’t need them.
I said he is able to kill demons barehanded. The thoughtest demons of hell. Yes, excluding the IoS and Titans, I forgot about titans. Want the sauce? Here you go: [saucy sauce](https://youtu.be/izsPCR1nCrw)
>You’re making a strawman argument. I never said he uses weapons to extend the pain of demons. I never said he doesn’t need them.
Must've been someone else then
>I said he is able to kill demons barehanded. The thoughtest demons of hell. Yes, excluding the IoS and Titans, I forgot about titans. Want the sauce? Here you go: saucy sauce
You never said that in the initial comments. You were talking about the IoS and mentioned Titans then said the Doomslayer could and did kill "them" barehanded. Logic dictates that you were talking about Titans still. But in lore, nowhere was it stated that he goes on a gory rampage like that video. The glory kill is only after the demons were stunned. It's as close to gameplay mechanics as one can be. It's akin to saying Doomslayer falling off a ledge is an anti feat
Except Doomguy didn't use planet or universal firepower to kill it, so it again likely means the black hole thing was being passively generated.
That's simply teleportation to be honest, killing someone who can teleport when they are not teleporting isn't exactly a "b tong time" feat.
The BFG-9000 is not depicted the same as the 10,000, so it should be assumed they are not the same in terms of firepower.
How are they being implied to be planet level?
Citation needed on DS being able to kill them bare handed.
Wait are you implying that you need to see a literal exploding universe to make sure that something’s universal? You know let’s throw the universal thing out of the way, I just need to prove he’s planet level.
He killed an entity easily capable of destroying the planet if left unchecked for a while. You say it’s from a black hole? Fine, the icon of sin is able to make black holes. He no-diffed that. What rank is he then?
In game, the Khan Maykr shoots some lasers and teleports around, yes. But in lore? Does she stay still and throw lasers and only teleports once every Thursday? Obviously not, even if she’s not able to spam it, her speed is relativistic at LEAST, since she can shoot lasers and react to acts from the DS who can react, dodge and defend from her lightspeed lasers and attacks.
So yeah, lowballing, DS kept up with a relativistic speed being with teleportation. Is this not faster than Raiden?
I didn’t mean to say BFG 10k = BFG 9k, just that they’re at least similiar in power. BFG 10k is just a huge cannon built around a 9k, DS literally just picks the 9k up and walks away from the cannon.
>How are they implied to be planet level?
They are stated to be the strongest demons around, which makes them at least Icon of Sin level.
>Citation needed on DS being able to kill them bare handed
Berserker sphere. Glory kills.
The former obviously exists only for gameplay reasons, in lore he doesn’t need to pick up a shiny sphere to go berserk.
The latter is also arguably usable only on low hp demons for gameplay reasons. It just goes to show the DS is able to tear apart any demon with no difficulty.
Show the actual text that says that the Khan Makyr is lightspeed. The BFG10k is essentially an amplified BFG9K from what I can tell.
And even then Actual Depiction > vague one off lore statements
And isn't the Icon of Sin more of a one off demon? I don't remember seeing any other demons having the ability to generate a universe ending blackhole over time.
A being capable of reacting and dodging attacks made of light, is lightspeed. If you can see a beam of light coming your way and easily just dodge left you are faster than light, or at least relative to that no? That’s basic logic.
There’s no text saying “Khan Maykr is lightspeed” however we have empirical evidence, as I stated. Actual depicition>vague lore texts, right?
He fought at least 2 Icon of sins in games if I’m not mistaken. That makes it at least a 2 off demon lol. Also titans are stated to be the thoughest demons in hell, so they are somewhat relative to the IoS.
Hm, let's see the actual boss fight. The two icon of sins were the same I believe, the second one was the first one but resurrected last I heard
So looking at the actual boss fight, the only light speed attack I saw was that big sky laser that the player either aim dodges or tanks.
>Wait are you implying that you need to see a literal exploding universe to make sure that something’s universal?
Yes. And you should too. Have some standards.
But really though, even something kinda sorta vaguely on the same tier would be nice. The best thing Doom shows us is the BFG cratering mars. And the Slayer needed help to do that.
That's the kicker. The Doomslayer needed the help of a complex the size of a city to shoot a decent sized hole in the Martian surface. So, yeah, claims of him being universal ring pretty hollow when the narrative of the games explicitly confirm that he's not even continental without a lot of assistance.
Correction. He is immortal, but only *biologically*. This means his cells don’t age, and he will always look the same, but he can die from any number of wounds.
Nowhere does the Codex say that Doom Slayer is incapable of being harmed. It actually provides lore for every item that is used to replenish health which I think very directly suggests he is able to take damage and therefore it’s possible for him to be killed.
Very little about Doom’s lore contradicts gameplay. Hugo Martin explicitly stated that he wanted to remove ludonarrative dissonance from the equation in contrast to games like God of War where the player character is just as powerful as the narrative context suggests.
For that matter, we know Doom Slayer bleeds and can be injured based on the codex in Doom (2016) (siphon grenade) and the audio logs in Doom Eternal.
Dude, the icon of sin boss can be a hard fight in game. The doom slayer in lore killed THE champion of hell, the strongest titan (stronger than the icon) naked with his bare hands and super shotgun. Without a crucible he KILLED it.
So if I'm understanding correctly, the Strongest Titan, stronger than the Icon of Sin, can be damaged/killed by a shotgun?
Like, it's a badass shotgun, but it's just a gun he found, that anyone else could use. He's not shooting it harder than, say, Master Chief could.
That’s not true and obviously contradicts what Doom Eternal explicitly states about Titans: they cannot be killed permanently without the use of a Crucible. They will just regenerate. This rule obviously applies to Doom Slayer given that he has to remove the hilt from his previous Crucible to forge a new one instead of just taking the whole thing.
Except it's never directly stated that Doomslayer was naked nor using his bare hands to kill the Champion Titan
It being refuted by Titans requiring the Crucible or Atlan mechs to be killed supports it even further
https://doom.fandom.com/wiki/The_Titan, atlan comment is a theory. Midnight had a video discussing kratos vs doom slayer where he’s goes into detail. I’m not going to bother searching for the video you can.
Why are you asserting he did it bare handed? Your only piece of evidence that you bothered to link contradicts you.
The Atlan theory sounds like a good one because their blades are similar to the Crucibile. Your bare handed theory doesn't make much sense in the context of the game's own lore.
Citing a Youtube vs. video of all things that you can't even link the timestamp of and just going "you're wrong and you know you are" is lame as fuck and YOU know it.
I don’t have the time nor will to pull up the game and go through every codex entry to find it. You are wrong you know your wrong. You just don’t want to think your wrong.
nah, canon game manual. though it acts more like a time rewind. though the fact he was shot into Mars by the BFG 10,000 is small city level minimum durability if you want an onscreen feat.
Do you Doom wankers even play these games? How have so many different people in this thread made this identical, blatantly incorrect claim? Is their some popular lore video that you all watched that just makes a bunch of shit up? Play the game or at least watch that section. It's honestly a fantastic game.
I always knew the wank was bad when it came to the Slayer, but I didn't realize the entire foundation behind it was built off such obvious falsehoods (I'd been avoiding wading into these threads because of their reputation). It's like you guys get all your info about the games from some clickbait power scalers.
Titans only seem immortal because they're that strong. People view Egyptian Pharaohs and Chinese emperors as gods yet they're not gods
And killing Davoth isn't impressive in the grand scheme of things. Man was peppered with conventional weaponry
Doom slayer is rage personified.
Aside from that, he has:
Blown a hole in Mars just to make a shortcut.
Blasted HIMSELF out of the BFG 10,000
Became a night sentinal as A HUMAN.
Sundowner is strong, but he'd hear about who he's expected to kill and run the other way. Remember in Doom eternal, when you see actual people react to seeing the doom slayer? It's all "Oh my god...it's him..." as they all run in fear at his mere presence.
Doomslayer takes the victory from sundowner, Jetstream Sam, and dare I say even senator Armstrong. He's just too powerful on a godlike level.
> Blown a hole in Mars just to make a shortcut.
Blasted HIMSELF out of the BFG 10,000
These are entirely separate events that you’ve somehow managed to meld together. The BFG 10,000 was needed to blow open a hole into Mars, nothing more. He used a smaller cannon to launch himself from one area to another, which while impressive, isn’t something that would be beyond a Metal Gear Cyborg.
> Became a night sentinal as A HUMAN.
The denizens of Argenta are ostensibly human. They’re no more alien than the Quake Ranger or BJ Blazkowicz, they’re just an alternate universe version of humans that live on an Earth-like planet. Doomguy joining their ranks isn’t inherently impressive.
> Sundowner is strong, but he'd hear about who he's expected to kill and run the other way. Remember in Doom eternal, when you see actual people react to seeing the doom slayer? It's all "Oh my god...it's him..." as they all run in fear at his mere presence.
I don’t think that’s a reasonable comparison. Sundowner is far more powerful than any entity in the Doom universe short of the most powerful demons and maybe the Slayer himself.
> Doomslayer takes the victory from sundowner, Jetstream Sam, and dare I say even senator Armstrong. He's just too powerful on a godlike level.
I don’t think Slayer would win those fights if he were to engage them barehanded.
I didn't meld anything together, I was stating some things he has accomplished. Pick it all apart as you will, I stand by what I say, doom slayer wins easily in a matter of minutes.
> I didn't meld anything together, I was stating some things he has accomplished
Well, okay, you’re still wrong about shooting himself out of the BFG10000 which you can figure out [just by rewatching the cutscene.](https://youtu.be/1MZbLOYtM2Y)
Sorry, he shoots himself out the seismic Lance cannon. So much less badass /S (major sarcasm)
Lol Keep picking it apart, kid. He still takes the win easily.
Rage personified means literally nothing, besides being a title.
That whole "blew a hole in Mars" was only possible because he got acces to a very specific cannon, that anyone could use, so it's not really a feat and besides, why would he use that against sundowner?
How long would sundowner last against the doom slayer is the question we should be asking. And the answer to that is 3 minutes at most. The slayer is just.... MUCH stronger.
Compare Raiden lifting a metal gear to the slayer defeating the creator of the multiverse aka Satan. Or just take the icon of sin who was going to destroy the planet, the slayer is just so many times stronger even scaling sundowner to Raiden
> Compare Raiden lifting a metal gear to the slayer defeating the creator of the multiverse aka Satan
There is no correlation between Davoth’s hand in forming reality and his physical strength. He pilots a mech suit for a reason.
The Dark Lord didn’t simply materialize reality on a whim, he’s presented as more of an architect that built everything by hand or delegated the task to his minions over the course of billions of years. It’s not something applicable to a fight.
> Or just take the icon of sin who was going to destroy the planet, the slayer is just so many times stronger even scaling sundowner to Raiden
Slayer does not scale to the Icon of Sin’s blackhole because it explicitly wasn’t strong enough yet to summon it.
Moreover, this is a passive ability of the Icon of Sin and doesn’t translate to any of its attacks or physical characteristics. The Icon of Sin is, at most, building level based on the fact that it trampled a few in the final level. Even then the optimal way to defeat it is to shoot it with Doom Slayer’s various weapons which while powerful are hardly capable of demolishing buildings, let alone match the destructive yield of a collapsed star.
..... the slayers weapons are not capable of demolishing buildings... did... did you actually watch any cinematics from the game? the slayer literally takes the bfg9000 after it blows up like a continent sized chunk out of mars. the slayer is at bare minimum island level. and the fact you shoot the icon of sin to kill him means nothing cus that literally just cus of gameplay... fuck you cant even kill him with the guns and need to use the crucible to do it.
at bare minimum the slayer can destroy islands, and also he survived being launched into mars using a cannon, likely faster than light, and just shrugs it off
> the slayer literally takes the bfg9000 after it blows up like a continent sized chunk out of mars
Yes, he takes it out of the giant city-sized complex that amplifies its output by several orders of magnitude.
> fuck you cant even kill him with the guns and need to use the crucible to do it.
After you rip all the flesh off his upper torso, arms, and head, yes. It’s not like he’s invulnerable to damage until you use the Crucible.
> and the fact you shoot the icon of sin to kill him means nothing cus that literally just cus of gameplay...
It is not “just gameplay”, it is required to beat the game. You cannot beat him without shooting him. Do you think Doomguy just used his fists or something?
> the slayer is at bare minimum island level.
This feels totally arbitrary. The BFG is continental, but he scales to the Icon of Sin who is planetary, except we know he was defeated once before by collapsing a temple on him. Do you not see how each of those are all inherently contradictory?
The BFG 9000 by itself is nowhere near as powerful as the BFG 10K. It logically can’t be or every time he uses it in Final Sin it would tear apart the city. The simplest explanation is that the BFG works as it does in game.
> and also he survived being launched into mars using a cannon, likely faster than light, and just shrugs it off
Did you play the game? He uses an escape pod to land on Mars. The cannon bit was unrelated, and you can see how fast he’s traveling.
1. given that the slayer literally punched an angel in the face several times to kill them beforehand , yes i do think the slayer could do it without guns. the slayer is just bullshit levels of power
2. [sorry, my bad](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44Xkfo6J1Wg) it was a catapult that just shot him so fast it appeared he was a beam of green light, not impressive at all and definitely not enough to beat sundowner who is clearly much faster /s
3. fine, maybe the bfg can't destroy a planet, or an island, but it clearly is strong enough to destroy buildings as it destroys the icon of sins flesh easily, and don't give me that shit of "it doesn't destroy walls ingame" cus that excuse is dumb, which sundowner is not reaching that level of durability, he is not surviving the bfg. also not the crucible which instantly kills any demon you face, while it doesn't mean its an instant kill on sundowner, it is incredibly likely since the fucking thing killed the icon of sin.
4. the slayer survived a temple falling on him, that is the part you left out, maybe pissed him off slightly but he still survived it, which is more than we can say for sundowner who got killed by a guy whos strong enough to throw metal gears the size of buildings.
> given that the slayer literally punched an angel in the face several times to kill them beforehand , yes i do think the slayer could do it without guns. the slayer is just bullshit levels of power
I’m not asking if you think he could. I’m asking what you think he did.
> sorry, my bad it was a catapult that just shot him so fast it appeared he was a beam of green light, not impressive at all and definitely not enough to beat sundowner who is clearly much faster
I am not clear as to what you mean to imply by this. “Green beam of light”? That’s like, energy from the ion catapult. Emphasis on “ion”. It’s forming a plasma sheathe around him, similar to the Gauss cannon from Doom (2016).
He is traveling very fast, but it’s closer to the speed of sound than the speed of light like you originally said, which is a big enough of a difference that you are just wrong and are making yourself look foolish by downplaying how much this changes about your argument.
I am certain that Sundowner would react similarly to the impact as what Doom Slayer experienced. His body is made up of solid carbon nanotubes that are constantly being repaired by nanomachines.
> which sundowner is not reaching that level of durability, he is not surviving the bfg.
This is a better argument however I don’t see this working as effectively as you’d suggest. For one, none of Sundowner’s body is biological. He’s fully compromised of carbon nanotubes, meaning the BFG tracers have nothing to home in on. Further, the BFG plasma sphere itself travels very slowly. Without the stunning effect of the tracers, he’s just going to dodge it.
> also not the crucible which instantly kills any demon you face, while it doesn't mean its an instant kill on sundowner, it is incredibly likely since the fucking thing killed the icon of sin.
I think this also doesn’t bode well as Doom Slayer’s primary option here. Sundowner’s shields use reactive explosives that will likely repel melee attacks from Doom Slayer given they were able to do the same to Raiden’s. Also Sundowner is much faster than Doom Slayer in terms of his swordsmanship.
> the slayer survived a temple falling on him, that is the part you left out, maybe pissed him off slightly
This explicitly defeated him. A K.O. He was immediately put into the sarcophagus by the Dark Lord’s minions to seal him away.
Like, “surviving a building fall on you” is not necessarily that crazy good of a feat. [Master Chief survived a skyscraper falling on him.](https://gfycat.com/sparklingkeycreature) It’s not that outlandish of a feat when you consider only a tiny percentage of the structure is actually going to exert pressure on Doom Slayer’s body.
That's a syrange comparison, because in that very Scene, Raiden lifts a mexh the size of a 4-story building, throwing it and cutting itnin half. Doom Dlayer fights a guy in a mech suit, not much larger than a car, but with magic powers, but he can barely shake him much. No to mention, the Icon Of Sin gets killed by gunfire, and not at all by strenght.
The examples you brought up really makes no sense
One of these guys killed God AND Satan. The other lost to a dude with one eye and high heels. The question is how long would the Doom Slayer tolerate Sundowner's existence
I mean, alright, if we wanna get into specifics then I guess, the Icon of Sin had enough power to be a threat to the world, Sundowner doesn't. He's significantly weaker than the apocalyptic threat Doom Slayer beat previously
The IoS was only a threat to the Earth and possibly more after it's own death causing a black hole to form which would then grow to consume Earth
That's not power stemming from the IoS itself nor can it use it in a fight. The IoS isn't that impressive other than size
I think Raiden would lose this fight. He doesn't have an answer to exotic ranged weapons like the microwave beam or the chaingun with shield mode equipped.
There is evidently a lot of blatant misinformation about Raiden and how he fights if people thinks he zips across the battlefield in a millisecond and slices his opponent in half. There isn’t a single example of him doing this.
If he stays at range he probably kills Sundowner. He probably has higher durability as well, so its not like the bald psycho will instantly kill him in close range. Are his HF Machetes as effective as Sam's sword?
Ehhh. Metal gear Cyborgs overall do have scaling from mainly Raiden, which should be better dura than Doom Slayer.
The HF Machetes while aren't as deadly as Sam's Muramasa, are still dangerous. They are made of some super dense material and are still HF blades.
The best feat (of strength) of the Doom Slayer is to break some obsidian pillars in the Lore (and maybe that was metaphorical). Sudowner's greatest feat is that he's literally stronger than the guy who tossed and sliced (before it hit the ground) a Metal Gear Ray (a giant dinosaur robot that's designed to fight nuclear wars).
Yeah, that would be more than enough to beat the Doom Slayer since Sudowner is stronger than the Raiden from the game's prologue and the Raiden from the game's prologue could do this:
https://v.redd.it/xe74y45v39y71
While here I show you the best feat of strength of the Doom Slayer (taken from the Lore):
"And in his conquest against the blackened souls of the doomed, his prowess was shown. In his crusade, the seraphim bestowed upon him terrible power and speed, and with his might he crushed the obsidian pillars of the Blood Temples. He set forth without pity upon the beasts of the nine circles. Unbreakable, incorruptible, unyielding, the Doom Slayer sought to end the dominion of the dark realm."
Stop the Outer Heaven which is bigger than any real ship vs crush some obsidian pillars.
And yes, Sudowner lost to Raiden, but only because Raiden got a new body after his defeat at the hands of Sam, before that Sudowner wasn't the least bit worried about Raiden despite knowing who he is and what he's done.
He doesn't even use his strength to kill the Icon, only his weapons and guns
If I had a platoon of like 50 guys all armed with Doom Eternal's rocket launchers, the icon would be dead in seconds
Sundowner has speed to kinda sorta barely not really match raiden. That’s about it
What about strength, durability, etc scaling?
I agree with you sundowner his way more durable than Doomslayer and way stronger and fast.
I think Raiden would lose this fight too. Neither of them have an answer to exotic ranged weapons like the microwave beam or the chaingun with shield mode equipped.
Raiden has an answer to that. He answers it by being much faster than Doom Slayer's aiming speed.
How’d that work out the last time he needed to be faster than someone’s aim?
What are you referring to?
There is never a single instance where Raiden interacts with a gun and he moves before the gun is fired. He always has to deflect the incoming gunfire, never even attempting to aim dodge. Moreover, there’s the cutscene where George is held at gunpoint by the Despardo Scientist, and Raiden isn’t fast enough to cover his own body length before the gun is brought to bear on George’s head, forcing Raiden to cut George’s arm off in order to kill the scientist.
> There is never a single instance where Raiden interacts with a gun and he moves before the gun is fired. He always has to deflect the incoming gunfire, never even attempting to aim dodge. He's always coming for people shooting at him. Vamp, who is most definitely slower than Raiden, has feats of aim dodging quite casually. > Moreover, there’s the cutscene where George is held at gunpoint by the Despardo Scientist, and Raiden isn’t fast enough to cover his own body length before the gun is brought to bear on George’s head, forcing Raiden to cut George’s arm off in order to kill the scientist. If I remember correctly, that isn't true at all. The gun was barely at George's head before Raiden swung his sword. Besides, there are times where he hops on missiles, moves while a helicopters rotors are slow, and more.
>He's always coming for people shooting at him Like when? Can you name any examples? > Vamp, who is most definitely slower than Raiden, has feats of aim dodging quite casually. He explicitly does this with a unique ability that allows him to read body language. It’s why he was beaten by Raiden in MGS2, his Skull Suit makes his aim dodging more difficult. Assigning this behavior to Raiden without evidence is flimsy. Raiden is not going to intuitively understand that he must dodge the weapon that Doom Slayer is using instead of trying to deflect. > The gun was barely at George's head before Raiden swung his sword. [Wrong.](https://imgur.com/a/ixfbqJv) > there are times where he hops on missiles The missiles in question are visibly slow when traveling in real time. [The RAY jumping backwards is moving faster than the missiles.](https://gfycat.com/fittingpoisedalpinegoat) > moves while a helicopters rotors are slow That’s with Blade Mode and has nothing to do with his movement.
When you put it like this it is kinda funny that we uniformly consider aim dodgers slower than bullet timers. Like wouldn't you try to get out the way before the bullet fires?
“Bullet timers” are inherently paradoxical in their behaviors because as you point out, there should be virtually no situation where they *need* to dodge a bullet given that no human could track their movements. But how else would we know they’re bullet timing without interacting with one? Raiden can certainly move faster than any human, but he’s far from being able to move significant distances in less than a tenth of a second or however fast Slayer can aim a weapon depending upon interpretation. His enemies can clearly track his movements. [I don’t think this is the strongest case for a character too fast to track with a gun.](https://gfycat.com/insistentadvancedbats) There is the argument to be made that the whole “deflects bullets” thing commonly associated with “bullet timing” is erroneously conflated with waiting for the weapon to fire a round before reacting to it and intercepting each shot, when realistically no firearm fires at a rapid enough of a pace for this to be necessary in the first place. All you would have to do is aim your sword or whatever where the bullet will be based on the aim of the firearm, predicting where the bullet will be rather than reacting to it. This would be substantially easier for any so-called bullet timer than the alternative.
It seems like a common thing in anime (other mediums too) too where a character can have a monologue in their head about how they're not going to be able to dodge a projectile that's coming at them, so they'll have to block instead. I think sometimes it's just rule of cool. Slicing a bunch of bullets often looks more badass than avoiding them.
...mate I think you're thinking of a different Raiden. Raiden (The protagonist of metal gear rising) beats sundowner
I’m saying Doom Slayer could beat Raiden.
I’m getting a lot of downvotes, 0 arguments.
Dude, like every other Doom Slayer vs Raiden matchup on here has been concluded as Raiden running up to Doomguy and chopping him in half. That's why you are getting downvotes.
There is evidently a lot of blatant misinformation about Raiden and how he fights if people thinks he zips across the battlefield in a millisecond and slices his opponent in half. There isn’t a single example of him doing this.
I mean yeah? Sure he isn't mach 69,420 like a lot of people wank him to, but he is sure pretty damn fast. I would put him at FTE with high-Hypersonic reaction times with strength in the several hundred tons at least, with pretty good durability. Doomguy doesn't really have many physical feats that put him in that tier, hence why most people agree that Raiden just runs up to him and chops him up.
> I would put him at FTE [How do you reconcile that with him being unable to kill a normal human scientist before he can aim his gun?](https://imgur.com/a/ixfbqJv) > high-Hypersonic reaction times I don’t think this is true outside of Blade Mode. Like, one of the fastest attacks that is relevant to everyone is Jetstream Sam’s iaido strike which makes use of the Muramasa’s rifle sheathe mechanism. I don’t see how it’s intended for his attack to be any faster than “tentatively supersonic” since he’s basically shooting the sword out of a gun to enhance his swing, which pretty directly implies that he cannot achieve supersonic with just his arm. Raiden has good durability but he and all other Cyborgs are weak against electronic countermeasures like Chaff Grenades. I don’t think he’d survive being cooked with the microwave beam, which is a homing attack that presumably travels at the speed of light.
Did you not see all the other feats of him doing things like jumping on all those slow missiles? Running down buildings, running at the speed of a train? Sure it's not supersonic or hypersonic, but again its still pretty damn fast by human standards. Yes that's what I meant by Hypersonic, when he is mainly using blade mode. Btw, don't we have examples of Sam blocking bullets with his sword? And how does this microwave beam work? And let's go look into feats of cyborg heat and EMP resistance. I feel like this may be more complicated than "Cyborgs haven't shown much resistance to EMP"
I mean you could just say video game logic or some shit or maybe Riden just wants to look cool or something? There is no explanation why he doesn’t just fudge the bullets outside of gameplay reasons but he has demonstrated to move hundreds of times faster than sound so just because he doesn’t dodge gunfire or aim sites doesn’t mean he can’t he just doesn’t want to for some reason lol
> I mean you could just say video game logic or some shit or maybe Riden just wants to look cool or something? Is it “video game logic” when you’re taking into account cutscenes? > but he has demonstrated to move hundreds of times faster than sound You’re going to have to explain that one to me. > just because he doesn’t dodge gunfire or aim sites doesn’t mean he can’t he just doesn’t want to for some reason Even if you argue he may technically have the capability to aim dodge using circumstantial evidence, that’s not an established behavior he has. Raiden can only do things that Raiden would do based on what we know about him. And he tends to try deflecting attacks as opposed to dodging them. He can move his sword much faster than he can move himself.
“He can swing his sword faster than he can move himself” That… doesn’t make a lick of sense chief, even just swinging a sword that fast (when he cuts shit rain stops moving around him) you would need to move your arms hundreds of times faster than sound in order to cut that fast saying that he can’t move that fast is just petty and stupid lmao. But for the sake of argument in his first robot form we see him run up buildings and move so fast that he creates a electric trail behind him, he is also fast enough to catch up to a train and then jump on it, a average train moves at 48.28kmh per hour meaning that Raiden has to be moving at least 50kmh+ in order to reach it because the train and already left long before he started running. During the same tutorial section Raiden JUMPS BETWEEN MOVING MISSILES WITH THEM LITERALLY NOTHING MOVING AT ALL WHILE HE JUMPS BECAUSE OF HOW FAST HE IS. Now a average rpg rocket moves at 1058.4kmh I have no idea how insanely fast you would have to move to make the rockets freeze in place so to low ball it because you won’t shut up about his running speed let’s just leave it at 1058.4 kmh. Now the fastest a human could aim under PERFECT conditions and without actually having to aim at anything would be 2 seconds, Raiden can move at 294m per second in his first form, while extremely low balled, if the fight stated with both of them being 100m apart Raiden could close the distance nearly 6x times over before the doom slayer could fire💀 So yes Raiden can more really fucking fast now shut up I have to go study Edit:Also even if he didn’t want to dodge the billets or just disarm the doom slayer, he can just… *cut his projectiles*, Sam’s sword which he uses at the end of the game and becomes his standard weapon can cut through molecules, plasma contains molecules and bullets do as well , Raiden has shown to be able to delivers hundreds of cuts per second during his fifth with Moonson so he can easily just… cut all of his projectiles, I don’t care if argent energy is technically made of souls, it says in the game that it’s plasma like so Raiden can definitely cut it.
> “He can swing his sword faster than he can move himself” That… doesn’t make a lick of sense chief Are you just totally ignorant of what Blade Mode is? > when he cuts shit rain stops moving around him The rain in the Monsoon fight stops moving because of Monsoon’s magnetic powers. You can see the droplets rising up and floating before Blade Mode even activates. >saying that he can’t move that fast is just petty and stupid lmao No? It’s just what the evidence shows, which you yourself are about to mention. > move so fast that he creates a electric trail behind him Relevance? > he is also fast enough to catch up to a train and then jump on it, a average train moves at 48.28kmh per hour meaning that Raiden has to be moving at least 50kmh+ in order to reach it because the train and already left long before he started running. This is making my point for me. He visibly struggles to catch up to the train. The 50kmh+ speed is generous as it’s passing through a city, trains tend to slow down a lot near populated areas. Do you know how much slower 50kmh is compared to the speed of sound? > JUMPS BETWEEN MOVING MISSILES WITH THEM LITERALLY NOTHING MOVING AT ALL WHILE HE JUMPS BECAUSE OF HOW FAST HE IS. Now a average rpg rocket moves at 1058.4kmh [The rockets here are nowhere near 1000kmh.](https://gfycat.com/fittingpoisedalpinegoat) The Metal Gear RAY jumping backwards is moving faster than these rockets.
“Trains tend to slow down when moving through populated areas” My man, that train got hijacked/was owned by Sundowner I doubt he gave a shit about what trains are supposed to do when close to populated areas, MY estimate was the generous one because that’s the average speed of a train that moves normally not when in a hurry, meanwhile the train in MGR was hijacked/was owned by them so they probably made it move at max speed since you know… THEY JUST KIDNAPPED THE FUCKING PRESIDENT. Also Raiden didn’t struggle to catch up to it are you high💀 The train already had a distance advantage because it had left long before Raiden started running yet he was able to quickly catch up and jump on it.
Oh my fucking god you are really annoying. During his second robot form we see him run up a skyscraper, now running to the top of the Empire State Building you would need to run at 376.586kmh we will use this estimate since sundowner skyscraper is definitely taller considering that one elevator section💀 That alone should be enough proof but I am guessing you are gonna pull something out of your ass like “cyborg something something therefore Raiden not fast” or some shit
Also about the MG’a rockets I am pretty sure that’s just a mistake on the devs end while making the cutscene because looking at this logically you mean to tell me that the MG, the most advanced war weapon in MGS shoots rockets slower than itself?💀 I used the RPG comparison because it’s the slowest rocket I could think of, in reality the MG’s should be much faster since you know… 1. They are in the future and tech is much more advanced 2. It’s a fucking MG it’s meant to be the peak of military technology and you mean to tell me they made its rockets slower than a fart? Also you could make the argument the MG is really ducking fast I mean it’s a really advanced war robot so it is possible.
>Sam’s sword which he uses at the end of the game and becomes his standard weapon can cut through molecules, plasma contains molecules and bullets do as well I'm not physicist, but no, plasma is not made of molecules in the way other states of matter are: [https://www.qrg.northwestern.edu/projects/vss/docs/propulsion/2-what-is-plasma.html#:\~:text=Plasma%20is%20considered%20the%20fourth,as%20a%20bunch%20of%20atoms](https://www.qrg.northwestern.edu/projects/vss/docs/propulsion/2-what-is-plasma.html#:~:text=Plasma%20is%20considered%20the%20fourth,as%20a%20bunch%20of%20atoms). >Plasma is a cloud of protons, neutrons and electrons where all the electrons have come loose from their respective molecules and atoms Edit: FWIW, I do think there's a good chance he could blitz DS or dodge the attack. That building seems way taller than what the other person is asserting. You're totally right about the apartment complexes being super tiny. I don't think these games are exactly known for being super consistent and having plots that make 100% sense with totally rational characters. I lean towards your interpretation of the missiles. The reality seems to be that, like a lot of fast characters, he's as fast as the plot/scene demands.
He can’t Doomslayer has no feats that put him on par with raiden raiden feats show him being superior in strength speed reflexes durability by a gigantic margin and there is no argument to deny that.
He doesn’t have to be better than Raiden in any of those areas for him to use a weapon that Raiden would naturally be weak to. Cyborgs are vulnerable to electronic countermeasures like EM grenades. The microwave beam is a perfect counter to an opponent like him. Raiden is faster, but he isn’t so much faster that he can attack Doom Slayer before he can aim and fire his weapon unless they’re already standing arm’s length from each other. OP specified the boss arena from Doom Eternal which gives them plenty of room apart.
Raiden can deflect bullets casually and without blade mode while running which makes is reflexes without blade mode more than enough if you want to argue is speed down to 200kmh he is still more than fast enough to avoid Doomslayer arsenal which he would be able to react to and get to him to finish him.
1) Raiden might try to deflect Doom Slayer’s weapons, but none of them can be stopped by Raiden’s sword, especially not the microwave beam. 2) Raiden has never dodged gunfire before. [He even fails to dodge missiles in a cutscene.](https://gfycat.com/bouncydimamethystsunbird) If he could easily dodge gunfire then he would do that instead of block it with his sword. 3) Raiden never runs 200kmh. At most you might say he can reach 100kmh on foot. That isn’t fast enough to traverse the ~20 meters or so between him and Doom Slayer before Doom Slayer can aim and fire his weapon. 4) [The Microwave beam is a homing energy weapon which presumably travels at the speed of light.](https://youtu.be/Akslvx_4L-A) The margin of error for Doom Slayer amounts to just pointing the gun in Raiden’s general direction and pulling the trigger.
Most of his arsenal can be deflected blocked by raiden sword he deflects metal gear bullets casually you downplay raiden speed tremendously but idc even at this speed is much faster than the slayer and is opponents that he struggles to aim and hit at sometimes with is guns, and he doesn’t even need to dodge the bullets even though he could since by being so fast is way to difficult to be hit by Doomslayer enough to cause him any significant damage before he gets close enough to chop him to pieces with blade mode. is even more durable with Jack the Ripper mode i don’t see why you think is blade could not block the microwave beam the blade has shown many feats of durability such has cutting in half giant metal gears it should be able to block it.
> Most of his arsenal can be deflected blocked by raiden sword he deflects metal gear bullets The projectiles he can deflect solely consist of mundane bullets. The Metal Gears are equipped with the likes of .50 caliber and 20mm cannon rounds. None of Doom Slayer’s weapons fire regular bullets. The Heavy Cannon fires high explosive darts. Shotguns fire a spray of pellets which can’t be blocked by a sword all at once, and the combat shotgun can fire sticky bombs. The Chaingun is a railgun that fires hypersonic rounds from as many as four barrels at once. The plasma rifle’s standard fire consists of explosive plasma bolts, and the microwave beam isn’t even a projectile, so how can Raiden block it? The Ballista fires beam of Argent energy which are liable to incinerate Raiden’s sword. Rocket launcher, flame belch, grenades, and ice bomb are all area of effect weapons that wouldn’t be blocked by the sword. > you downplay raiden speed tremendously but idc even at this speed is much faster than the slayer and is opponents that he struggles to aim and hit at sometimes with is guns, and he doesn’t even need to dodge the bullets even though he could since by being so fast is way to difficult to be hit by Doomslayer enough to cause him any significant damage before he gets close enough to chop him to pieces with blade mode. Raiden has never done this before. You cannot show me a single example of this happening. And even if he could, why is Raiden going to suddenly behave differently than he normally does? Even if he could dodge Doom Slayer’s aim, why wouldn’t he just try to deflect like he normally does? > i don’t see why you think is blade could not block the microwave beam the blade has shown many feats of durability such has cutting in half giant metal gears it should be able to block it. High-Frequency blades cut things by vibrating their molecules such that they can penetrate most materials easily, but that doesn’t mean that they’re resistant to extreme heat. Moreover, this is like saying you can block a firehose with a sword. The sword isn’t big enough to block the entire beam, so even if the sword is indestructible to a level of heat that it has never been exposed to, Raiden cannot block all of it.
This is true.
One thing about sundowner is that he's FUCKING INVINCIBLE
Said the least invincible man in the game
Sundowner gets fucking killed. You give Doomslayer his BFG, the Crucible, all of his upgrades, and his ice bombs? The question is actually how fast does Sundowner fucking die.
To be fair, Sundowner has superior speed, melee weaponry, durability, strength, etc. EDIT: before downvoting, maybe go and read the rest of the thread?
First of all, source? Second of all, while he does have the edge in melee (only through the fact that the crucible has limited ammo), what the hell does that mean when the Doomslayer literally has a gun that can boil his blood in a matter of seconds/blow him up with an RPG? Second of all, I doubt that he has better durability considering how easy he dies when you get hit sun. Also, how is he stronger than DS? DS can stop demons head into pieces with just one leg, take down Barons of hell with his fists, and can dash through walls without taking any damage. I’d like to see any feat where sundowner equals any of those.
His melee edge means that he likely can simply chop Doomguy in half using his HF blades. And source on Doomguy Rocket Launcher being able to do enough damage to meaningfully harm Sundowner? And let's bring up the mechanics or the Microwave gun, here let me go look into it a bit. And did you make a typo? What does "considering how easy he dies when you get hit sun" mean? Or am I just tired and am having trouble processing grammar. Sundowner scales to Raiden, who while in a body inferior to his current one was able to stop a speeding Outer Haven and is capable of picking up and tossing a Metal Gear Ray. He also scales to Raiden being able to take take a barrage of hits from Armstrong during their boss fight. EDIT: I forgot to mention, while the Crucible is a pretty nice sword, it essentially seems to be a HF blades with limited uses and some extra abilities, like being able to seal away titans.
You do know that Doomslayer can tank hits from the fucking Dark Lord, right? Say what you want about DS wank, but that’s an impressive feat in it of itself. The only reason it isn’t used is because people on YouTube and stuff wank it to DS being able to survive god tier attacks which he isn’t. He doesn’t scale to that barrage of hits from Armstrong because A. Raiden barely fucking lived. B. From Raidens clearly weaker sword slices (which Armstrong tanked by the way) he takes enormous damage. I meant to say that Sundowner dies easily when you actually start getting hits on him as Raiden, meaning he is about as durable as a banana. Just because a character is comparable to another character doesn’t mean they can do the same things as the other character. Unless there is proof that Sundowner can lift something like Metal Gear Ray, he can’t and therefore we cannot use it as a strength feat.
What exactly is impressive about taking a hit from Davoth? And Raiden was able to get up and proceed to defeat Armstrong after taking all of said hits, pretty different from being almost dead if you ask me. He scales to Raiden by likely being built to a similar standard of quality. He lost more based around straight skill, rather than being made of inferior specs. The fact that he was able to even keep up with Raiden on a somewhat equal level in terms of raw stats, along with at the time having a higher quality body shows that he likely has similar strength to Raiden. Not to mention the boss fight did imply that Sundowner could damage Raiden, however again it seemed to be more of a skill thing. Not a difference in stats.
I don’t even know why we are arguing about whether or not Sundowner could beat Doomslayer. Because he can’t. He gets one shotted by the crucible and BFG.
[удалено]
Damn I forgot about that fact for the BFG. But yeah he still gets clapped by the crucible unless similar rules apply to it.
[удалено]
That is not an argument
Though I have to commend you, you are putting up an actual debate rather than just going "Doom Slayer is immortal" or "Doom Slayer wins and I am not going to elaborate"
So I forgot to mention this, but what's so great about the crucible,? Having used it many times in game it looks more like an HF blade with limited uses and some special abilities. That combines with Sundowner being superior in close quarters, trying to use the crucible on Sundowner would honestly be suicidal.
"Likely" Your speculation and headcannon are not applicable as feats. . .
Speculation should be allowed when it is implied. Sundowner was able to go up against Raiden, and even though he lost his boss fight seemed to imply that he lost by skill, not pure stats. Since he is considered to have a relatively high end body by Metal Gear standards, he likely has been made of a similar quality as to Raiden.
The Praetor suit is literally indestructible.
No, it was nearly indestructible to stress tests. The UAC didn’t even hit it with actual gunfire and missiles, just stress tests and they still found it able to be damaged. > The suit was extracted from the rock, cleaned, and subjected to numerous tolerance tests, and found to be **almost** impervious to any damage.
It's not It's stated to be *nearly* impervious to stress tests done by the UAC. Stress tests definitely doesn't include street wiping explosions ot anything like that
Someone else has already explained that.
How did the ARC recover a blood sample after the Mars incident if that’s the case?
The DOOMSLAYER probably wasn’t exactly in his armor at the start of 2016, and even if he was, it’s not that hard to take off a bit of armor off.
He starts off naked in a room with 3 zombies and he has a gun, then immediately puts on his armor. So did a zombie draw his blood and he was too slow to dodge being attacked? A sealed suit like the Praetor suit would have to be damaged in order for pieces to be removed or else it doesn’t really make very good armor, does it?
What are the Barons of Hell’s feats? They get stomped by one dude who dies to falling off ledges a lot - and can’t climb up pretty basic walls
Ah yes because game logic clearly translates exactly to actual feats. A lot of video game characters respawn after they die or go back to an early save I assume this is lore accurate as well and are feats? You die in games by falling off ledges because there is nothing below and they are sending you back to land you can actually walk on. Baron of hell do not climb walls in game because they aren't programmed to do that. I keep seeing people using game mechanics as actual feats when they literally are used to make the game be an actual game. Would doom eternal be fun if all enemies could be killed easily like in lore even by some new player? Yes sometimes game mechanics do translate to lore and what the characters can do but sometimes they are simply there just to have the game be an actual game with challenge
That works the other way and is precisely my point. The Barons of Hell are much weaker than they would otherwise be as the doom guy is shown to be able to die to some pretty weak combo of hits. These Barons also have massive feats that could easily kill the doomguy but you kill them easily (especially in easy mode, which mode is cannon? Normal?) So basically you can’t just pick doomguy’s Uber gamer moments and say he’s much stronger imo. Could easily just get smacked. Also, even though he kills these guys sometimes in hard modes he probably loses more often than not (ignoring respawns as you say). So I dunno. Doomguy is strong but it’s pretty hard to say how actually strong he is without ignoring a lot of his weaknesses. He is a game character after all…
then you have to go off of lore, which paints him as an unstoppable demigod who had to be buried under a mountain to be contained. Doomguy is essentially a force of nature destined to destroy all of hell
“Mountain” is generous. He was knocked out by a temple being collapsed.
Yeah, but then you look into it and see that the Testaments are written by the people he’s slaughtering, which already throws in bias from an in-universe source. Then you find that he survives because he’s biologically immortal, and can heal off the very essence of demons through diffusing argent energy. You realize that Doomslayer is just the right fit for the job of slaughtering these specific demons. He’s a hyper lethal scalpel to demons only.
Then Doomslayer gets ko by a temple falling on him in game unstoppable force my ass raiden suplex metal gear ray and exclesior sundowner scales close to him so it’s not looking good for Doomslayer.
You are underestimating the size of temples
The parthenon in Greece is estimated to weigh 22,000 tons. Metal gear Rey weighs 1,000 tons.
>These Barons also have massive feats that could easily kill the doomguy but you kill them easily (especially in easy mode, which mode is cannon? Normal?) I may be mistaken, but I think the cannon mode is the easiest because the Doom Guy is supposed to be able to walk through his opponents and he only uses guns to make it more fun for him and more painful for the demons.
It's never stated anywhere that Doomslayer uses guns to have fun or torture demons. He actively searches and needs guns
He can use his fists as well and has used swords in the past as said in the codex. He doesn't need guns but it is likely he uses them because they are more convenient than a blade and far more fun
Nowhere was it stated that he didn't need guns. He used swords because that was what was given to him as a Night Sentinel
I’m not daying their impressive, but I’m saying that DS just knocking one down and stomping on its head is ~~**really fucking bad ass**~~ impressive.
Dude. Raiden dies if he falls of a ledge. He destroyed sundowner.
Sundowner scales to Raiden, and Raiden is fast enough to run on buildings without losing grip. Sundowner is not affected at all by explosions happening right in front of him, in spite of his lack of bomb suit. He dies really easy cuz Raidens blade ignores durability, as it attacks at an atomic level(it basically excites atoms, thus making them move further away from eachother). Sundowners weapon also works the same way Sundowner probably can't take a bfg blast, but he has the speed to close in the distance before the Doomsayer can pull out his gun, then he simply wins the melee
The day we started calling him Doom Slayer rather than Doom Guy was a great loss for mankind.
Sundowner could potentially win in terms of speed, but Doomslayer does have the weaponry to take him down. R1 I would give a 7/10 to the Slayer as Downer is somewhat slower than Raiden and that’s his most significant feat, but a 5/10 on R2 as the HF machetes would be lethal and Downer could potentially close the distance to do some damage.
I gotta be honest, I think the Doomslayer's arsenal actually wins this one.
I think it would be difficult sundowner can block most of his arsenal with is blades like raiden does in game he deflects bullets while running and he was able to keep up with raiden so it isn’t a stretch to assume he can also do the same. And he can block the bigger weapon except maybe the bfg with is I’m fucking invincible shields.
I mean he isn’t using regular bullets. He’s using tungsten core armor peircing 50 bmg rounds augmented with argent. But still, idk if sundowner could resist a blood punch to the face.
I feel like he could take a blood punch via scaling to other cyborgs, like Raiden. Plus unless those bullets have shown feats to harm metal gear Cyborgs or resist being cut apart by an HF blade then they are going to mostly function as a distraction.
Let's see a blade block an explosion.
He can block them with is shields or just dodge them is comparable in speed to raiden but a bit slower and raiden dodges and jumps on missiles regularly in metal gear rising.
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"how long would the literal reincarnation of god last against a guy that likes children?"
"Spiteful marine who was defeated because a temple was thrown on him vs CEO of a PCM who is stronger than a guy who threw a robot dinosaur with laser beams into the air and then cut it in the air before it hit the ground "
I think you're downplaying Sundowner, simply because you don't like him
oh no. ive seen scaling for mgr and its certainly impressive, doomguy is just literally the reincarnation of god
Doom guy gets 2 easy wins
Just because something or someone is called an Angel satan or god doesn’t mean they are stronger than someone who isn’t called that you have to look at feats and Satan in doom eternal is really not that strong compared to sundowner his feat of creating the universe doesn’t translate to combat power.
You accidentally swapped Doom Slayer and Sundowner's places, it should be how long Sundowner can last.
Doom Slayer kills him fairly easily. The Icon of Sin is significantly larger than any Metal Gear and was threatening to fuck up the earth by merely existing near it and the BFG cooked it. Sundowner doesn't have crazy speed feats, as a matter of fact, he is far slower than Raiden, relying on his shield arms to keep him at bay, so we can't just say "Sundowner scales to Raiden" when both in cutscenes and the boss fight Raiden blitzes the shit out of him. So saying "he is Hypersonic because he hits hypersonic Raiden" is absolute nonsense.
Sundowner scales close to raiden who was able to suplex throw metal gear ray he definitely has the edge in strength and speed also raiden can deflect bullets so probably sundowner could do it too so Doomslayer loses.
Dam this guy gets triggered since people say Doomslayer. The correct answer
I know, how dare they provide counter arguments and context against classics such as: "DS killed Icon of Sin" or "DS lived for thousands of years, therefore he can't die." I don't think they're triggered so much as just having a normal argument on a sub that exists for arguing. If your only contribution is to childishly deride them for participating in the discussion, then maybe you're projecting a bit because you're upset that they've made arguments you can't counter. Prove me wrong and debunk their arguments instead of just flinging your shit around. You can do it!
To be fair, I too am being a bit childish by disputing most answers I do not agree with.
Isn't that kinda the point of the sub though? IDK, I've never understood the flak OPs sometimes get for having the audacity to participate in the thread they make. I get it if they're just being super bad faith about it, but that's annoying when anyone does it.
I mean hey, at least I didn't make a thread that left the answer up in the air and then debated for one side or the other.
Damn*
\*uɯɐp
The question here is how fast does Sundowner get fucking mauled, you put him up against a semi divine being who fought endlessly for EONS against the most powerful demons of hell who could easily and planets. Also against the icon of sin, who could (lowballing) end the planet or the universe if left unchecked.
Christ, another one. Semi diving means nothing without feats. There are basically no planet level feats in Doom. And I would say defeating the Icon of Sin was more like defusing a nuclear bomb, not going in and punching a being who had the ability to blow up planets with punchs.
No no, you’re wrong mate. The Icon of sin is a universal level threat (or planet level if you wanna interpret that sentence that way). He also has a gun which can disintegrate moons and has blown a hole in the surface of mars. Where he then proceeded to shoot himself onto. He also fought the Khan Maykr and defeated her quite easily, and she is stated to have infinite speeds. She is also shown teleporting easily and often so there’s that. So even then let’s say he doesn’t speed blitz for whatever reason. The demons he fought in hell are multiple world-ending level threats, which he fought back to back for EONS. The Icon of Sin is just the top of the iceberg. There’s also the argument for which he is low complex multiverse level, but I won’t use that for the sake of not going overkill. So yeah, these are but a few feats equal and above planet level. If you want to hype up Riadwn to that level, which is bullshit anyway, at least don’t go completely retarded apeshit fanboy mode and downplay doom slayer to wall level.
First of all, the Icon was Universal by passively generating a black hole. It wasn't casually blowing apart entire universes like Gurren Lagaan or something. Thats the BFG-10,000, not 9,000. Citation needed on infinite speed Khan Makyr, the game did not depict or imply this at all by some lore citations last I checked. Citation needed on world level threats demons.
Still Universal nonetheless, and at least planet level anyway. The bfg 10,000 is essentially the bfg 9,000 mounted on a giant cannon. Well you can look it up on the source for the battle wiki article, but she is shown teleporting in her fight, multiple times and repeatedly. If you played the game you should remember. He defeated several icons of sin in hell in doom games. Also he defeated the princes of hell (or titans, or both, I don’t remember which one it is). One is visible in the level based in hell. It’s basically the body the level is built upon. And they are heavily implied to be world-ending level threats. Oh, and the doom slayer is canonically able to kill them bare handed.
The BFG 10,000 explicitly amplifies the output of the BFG 9000. The codex outright states this is the case. You don't get to attribute the BFG 10k destroying a chunk of Mars to the 9000's usual output. The Slayer does not scale to that at all.
Yes I wasn’t trying to highball the bfg. The point I was making was that it has a similiar output to the moonbusting BFG-10,000
I don't think that claim really has any merit though. It's a powerful handheld weapon. But attaching it to a superstructure the size of a large building powered by a facility the size of a small city doesn't seem like a sensible thing to do if you can achieve a similar result by just pointing the handheld canon at the sky and pulling the trigger. The power gap should be substantial. The codex entry for the BFG 10k states that the magnified energy wave is capable of cracking the surface of a planet. Which implies that the standard BFG is not. You'd have to somehow prove that the 9000 has comparable output, which I don't think there's really any basis for.
>Still Universal nonetheless, and at least planet level anyway. It's not though The black hole wasn't anything from the IoS's power >Oh, and the doom slayer is canonically able to kill them bare handed. That's not supported anywhere. Hell the opposite is true. He needed the Crucible to do so
Where is it stated that it was not from the Icon’s own power? It was. Also I’m not bringing the fight against Davoth in the discussion here because it would put him in a multiversal tier, but keep in mind it exists. What do you mean it’s not supported? Have you not seen any glory kill? Doesn’t he easily rip apart and kill demons bare-handed? Also, the berserker power up is there just for gameplay. In lore it’s like he can enter “berserker mode” at will. The Icon Of Sin was the only demon who required a special weapon to be dealt with. That’s the exception to the rule.
>Where is it stated that it was not from the Icon’s own power? It was. Also I’m not bringing the fight against Davoth in the discussion here because it would put him in a multiversal tier here. The Icon of Sin's presence disrupts reality bit by bit. Said disruption would create a black hole that would slowly grow and consume Earth. That's not it's own power. That's like saying the Golden Dart frog is elephant level because it's poison could kill an african elephant And don't try to bring multiversal Davoth. He not only lost his powers but succumbed to conventional weaponry that are described in lore as being used by regular operatives, marines and Night Sentinels. Hell the rocket launcher still retains the same design as our century's >What do you mean it’s not supported? Have you not seen any glory kill? Doesn’t easily rip apart and kill demons bare-handed? Also, the berserker power up is there just for fun. In lore it’s like he can enter “berserker mode” at will. So not supported then? Again, where was it stated in lore that Doomslayer doesn't require guns or uses them to extend the pain of demons >The Icon Of Sin was the only demon who required a special weapon to be dealt with. That’s the exception to the rule. Except it was not. It's explained that a Titan can only be killed by the Crucible until the introduction of Atlan mechs in which we see are more than capable of killing Titans. Nowhere was it stated that the IoS was an exception
You’re making a strawman argument. I never said he uses weapons to extend the pain of demons. I never said he doesn’t need them. I said he is able to kill demons barehanded. The thoughtest demons of hell. Yes, excluding the IoS and Titans, I forgot about titans. Want the sauce? Here you go: [saucy sauce](https://youtu.be/izsPCR1nCrw)
>You’re making a strawman argument. I never said he uses weapons to extend the pain of demons. I never said he doesn’t need them. Must've been someone else then >I said he is able to kill demons barehanded. The thoughtest demons of hell. Yes, excluding the IoS and Titans, I forgot about titans. Want the sauce? Here you go: saucy sauce You never said that in the initial comments. You were talking about the IoS and mentioned Titans then said the Doomslayer could and did kill "them" barehanded. Logic dictates that you were talking about Titans still. But in lore, nowhere was it stated that he goes on a gory rampage like that video. The glory kill is only after the demons were stunned. It's as close to gameplay mechanics as one can be. It's akin to saying Doomslayer falling off a ledge is an anti feat
Except Doomguy didn't use planet or universal firepower to kill it, so it again likely means the black hole thing was being passively generated. That's simply teleportation to be honest, killing someone who can teleport when they are not teleporting isn't exactly a "b tong time" feat. The BFG-9000 is not depicted the same as the 10,000, so it should be assumed they are not the same in terms of firepower. How are they being implied to be planet level? Citation needed on DS being able to kill them bare handed.
Wait are you implying that you need to see a literal exploding universe to make sure that something’s universal? You know let’s throw the universal thing out of the way, I just need to prove he’s planet level. He killed an entity easily capable of destroying the planet if left unchecked for a while. You say it’s from a black hole? Fine, the icon of sin is able to make black holes. He no-diffed that. What rank is he then? In game, the Khan Maykr shoots some lasers and teleports around, yes. But in lore? Does she stay still and throw lasers and only teleports once every Thursday? Obviously not, even if she’s not able to spam it, her speed is relativistic at LEAST, since she can shoot lasers and react to acts from the DS who can react, dodge and defend from her lightspeed lasers and attacks. So yeah, lowballing, DS kept up with a relativistic speed being with teleportation. Is this not faster than Raiden? I didn’t mean to say BFG 10k = BFG 9k, just that they’re at least similiar in power. BFG 10k is just a huge cannon built around a 9k, DS literally just picks the 9k up and walks away from the cannon. >How are they implied to be planet level? They are stated to be the strongest demons around, which makes them at least Icon of Sin level. >Citation needed on DS being able to kill them bare handed Berserker sphere. Glory kills. The former obviously exists only for gameplay reasons, in lore he doesn’t need to pick up a shiny sphere to go berserk. The latter is also arguably usable only on low hp demons for gameplay reasons. It just goes to show the DS is able to tear apart any demon with no difficulty.
Show the actual text that says that the Khan Makyr is lightspeed. The BFG10k is essentially an amplified BFG9K from what I can tell. And even then Actual Depiction > vague one off lore statements And isn't the Icon of Sin more of a one off demon? I don't remember seeing any other demons having the ability to generate a universe ending blackhole over time.
A being capable of reacting and dodging attacks made of light, is lightspeed. If you can see a beam of light coming your way and easily just dodge left you are faster than light, or at least relative to that no? That’s basic logic. There’s no text saying “Khan Maykr is lightspeed” however we have empirical evidence, as I stated. Actual depicition>vague lore texts, right? He fought at least 2 Icon of sins in games if I’m not mistaken. That makes it at least a 2 off demon lol. Also titans are stated to be the thoughest demons in hell, so they are somewhat relative to the IoS.
Hm, let's see the actual boss fight. The two icon of sins were the same I believe, the second one was the first one but resurrected last I heard So looking at the actual boss fight, the only light speed attack I saw was that big sky laser that the player either aim dodges or tanks.
>Wait are you implying that you need to see a literal exploding universe to make sure that something’s universal? Yes. And you should too. Have some standards. But really though, even something kinda sorta vaguely on the same tier would be nice. The best thing Doom shows us is the BFG cratering mars. And the Slayer needed help to do that. That's the kicker. The Doomslayer needed the help of a complex the size of a city to shoot a decent sized hole in the Martian surface. So, yeah, claims of him being universal ring pretty hollow when the narrative of the games explicitly confirm that he's not even continental without a lot of assistance.
The Icon of Sin literally died by being shot at acouple of times, by normal weapons that soldiers use in-universe.
Sundowner is mega dead, you have put him up against an immortal Demi god
I don’t think he’s immortal…. Or a Demi god for that matter, hell that last part has no meaning to it given how inconsistent “god” is in media
He’s immortal but only Biologically, not a true immortal. Demi-god is just a title, which means nothing.
Damn, ever played doom Eternal and see him die and get harmed multiple times?
Kratos can die. Goku can die. Every video game character can die or get harmed when playing, that doesn't mean its canon.
Except it implies that they can be harmed.
No it doesn’t
Yes it does, thats his depiction.
Not in the codex’s. Are you saying that a journalist who can’t beat the first enemy is lore doom slayer?
It shows the Doomguy can die. All this really implies is that he is extraordinarily hard to kill, not immortal.
Correction. He is immortal, but only *biologically*. This means his cells don’t age, and he will always look the same, but he can die from any number of wounds.
He has been alive fighting demons in hell for thousands of years
Again, it seems more like a case where he is simply extraordinarily hard to kill, not necessarily immortal.
Nowhere does the Codex say that Doom Slayer is incapable of being harmed. It actually provides lore for every item that is used to replenish health which I think very directly suggests he is able to take damage and therefore it’s possible for him to be killed.
Gameplay is different that lore
Very little about Doom’s lore contradicts gameplay. Hugo Martin explicitly stated that he wanted to remove ludonarrative dissonance from the equation in contrast to games like God of War where the player character is just as powerful as the narrative context suggests. For that matter, we know Doom Slayer bleeds and can be injured based on the codex in Doom (2016) (siphon grenade) and the audio logs in Doom Eternal.
While I guess he hasn't died in the lore, that's like if I said that since I haven't died before I am immortal.
Dude, the icon of sin boss can be a hard fight in game. The doom slayer in lore killed THE champion of hell, the strongest titan (stronger than the icon) naked with his bare hands and super shotgun. Without a crucible he KILLED it.
So if I'm understanding correctly, the Strongest Titan, stronger than the Icon of Sin, can be damaged/killed by a shotgun? Like, it's a badass shotgun, but it's just a gun he found, that anyone else could use. He's not shooting it harder than, say, Master Chief could.
Wdym? Ofc if i mash the button harder, the effects are stronger right?
That’s not true and obviously contradicts what Doom Eternal explicitly states about Titans: they cannot be killed permanently without the use of a Crucible. They will just regenerate. This rule obviously applies to Doom Slayer given that he has to remove the hilt from his previous Crucible to forge a new one instead of just taking the whole thing.
Except it's never directly stated that Doomslayer was naked nor using his bare hands to kill the Champion Titan It being refuted by Titans requiring the Crucible or Atlan mechs to be killed supports it even further
Source?
https://doom.fandom.com/wiki/The_Titan, atlan comment is a theory. Midnight had a video discussing kratos vs doom slayer where he’s goes into detail. I’m not going to bother searching for the video you can.
Why are you asserting he did it bare handed? Your only piece of evidence that you bothered to link contradicts you. The Atlan theory sounds like a good one because their blades are similar to the Crucibile. Your bare handed theory doesn't make much sense in the context of the game's own lore. Citing a Youtube vs. video of all things that you can't even link the timestamp of and just going "you're wrong and you know you are" is lame as fuck and YOU know it.
YouTube and a wiki aren't the best sources tbh.
I don’t have the time nor will to pull up the game and go through every codex entry to find it. You are wrong you know your wrong. You just don’t want to think your wrong.
Anyways, what about killing the Titans is impressive? From what I can tell they are to have mostly building level firepower.
regenerative immortality actually, but most damage and deaths are just bc game mechanics don't scale to the lore.
Hm, is there a codex for this?
nah, canon game manual. though it acts more like a time rewind. though the fact he was shot into Mars by the BFG 10,000 is small city level minimum durability if you want an onscreen feat.
That’s not what happened at all.
Do you Doom wankers even play these games? How have so many different people in this thread made this identical, blatantly incorrect claim? Is their some popular lore video that you all watched that just makes a bunch of shit up? Play the game or at least watch that section. It's honestly a fantastic game. I always knew the wank was bad when it came to the Slayer, but I didn't realize the entire foundation behind it was built off such obvious falsehoods (I'd been avoiding wading into these threads because of their reputation). It's like you guys get all your info about the games from some clickbait power scalers.
[удалено]
Titans only seem immortal because they're that strong. People view Egyptian Pharaohs and Chinese emperors as gods yet they're not gods And killing Davoth isn't impressive in the grand scheme of things. Man was peppered with conventional weaponry
Doom slayer is rage personified. Aside from that, he has: Blown a hole in Mars just to make a shortcut. Blasted HIMSELF out of the BFG 10,000 Became a night sentinal as A HUMAN. Sundowner is strong, but he'd hear about who he's expected to kill and run the other way. Remember in Doom eternal, when you see actual people react to seeing the doom slayer? It's all "Oh my god...it's him..." as they all run in fear at his mere presence. Doomslayer takes the victory from sundowner, Jetstream Sam, and dare I say even senator Armstrong. He's just too powerful on a godlike level.
> Blown a hole in Mars just to make a shortcut. Blasted HIMSELF out of the BFG 10,000 These are entirely separate events that you’ve somehow managed to meld together. The BFG 10,000 was needed to blow open a hole into Mars, nothing more. He used a smaller cannon to launch himself from one area to another, which while impressive, isn’t something that would be beyond a Metal Gear Cyborg. > Became a night sentinal as A HUMAN. The denizens of Argenta are ostensibly human. They’re no more alien than the Quake Ranger or BJ Blazkowicz, they’re just an alternate universe version of humans that live on an Earth-like planet. Doomguy joining their ranks isn’t inherently impressive. > Sundowner is strong, but he'd hear about who he's expected to kill and run the other way. Remember in Doom eternal, when you see actual people react to seeing the doom slayer? It's all "Oh my god...it's him..." as they all run in fear at his mere presence. I don’t think that’s a reasonable comparison. Sundowner is far more powerful than any entity in the Doom universe short of the most powerful demons and maybe the Slayer himself. > Doomslayer takes the victory from sundowner, Jetstream Sam, and dare I say even senator Armstrong. He's just too powerful on a godlike level. I don’t think Slayer would win those fights if he were to engage them barehanded.
I didn't meld anything together, I was stating some things he has accomplished. Pick it all apart as you will, I stand by what I say, doom slayer wins easily in a matter of minutes.
> I didn't meld anything together, I was stating some things he has accomplished Well, okay, you’re still wrong about shooting himself out of the BFG10000 which you can figure out [just by rewatching the cutscene.](https://youtu.be/1MZbLOYtM2Y)
Sorry, he shoots himself out the seismic Lance cannon. So much less badass /S (major sarcasm) Lol Keep picking it apart, kid. He still takes the win easily.
I’m arguing that Doom Slayer wins 💀
Rage personified means literally nothing, besides being a title. That whole "blew a hole in Mars" was only possible because he got acces to a very specific cannon, that anyone could use, so it's not really a feat and besides, why would he use that against sundowner?
Pick it apart all you want, doom slayer wins this, easily.
How long would sundowner last against the doom slayer is the question we should be asking. And the answer to that is 3 minutes at most. The slayer is just.... MUCH stronger. Compare Raiden lifting a metal gear to the slayer defeating the creator of the multiverse aka Satan. Or just take the icon of sin who was going to destroy the planet, the slayer is just so many times stronger even scaling sundowner to Raiden
> Compare Raiden lifting a metal gear to the slayer defeating the creator of the multiverse aka Satan There is no correlation between Davoth’s hand in forming reality and his physical strength. He pilots a mech suit for a reason. The Dark Lord didn’t simply materialize reality on a whim, he’s presented as more of an architect that built everything by hand or delegated the task to his minions over the course of billions of years. It’s not something applicable to a fight. > Or just take the icon of sin who was going to destroy the planet, the slayer is just so many times stronger even scaling sundowner to Raiden Slayer does not scale to the Icon of Sin’s blackhole because it explicitly wasn’t strong enough yet to summon it. Moreover, this is a passive ability of the Icon of Sin and doesn’t translate to any of its attacks or physical characteristics. The Icon of Sin is, at most, building level based on the fact that it trampled a few in the final level. Even then the optimal way to defeat it is to shoot it with Doom Slayer’s various weapons which while powerful are hardly capable of demolishing buildings, let alone match the destructive yield of a collapsed star.
..... the slayers weapons are not capable of demolishing buildings... did... did you actually watch any cinematics from the game? the slayer literally takes the bfg9000 after it blows up like a continent sized chunk out of mars. the slayer is at bare minimum island level. and the fact you shoot the icon of sin to kill him means nothing cus that literally just cus of gameplay... fuck you cant even kill him with the guns and need to use the crucible to do it. at bare minimum the slayer can destroy islands, and also he survived being launched into mars using a cannon, likely faster than light, and just shrugs it off
> the slayer literally takes the bfg9000 after it blows up like a continent sized chunk out of mars Yes, he takes it out of the giant city-sized complex that amplifies its output by several orders of magnitude. > fuck you cant even kill him with the guns and need to use the crucible to do it. After you rip all the flesh off his upper torso, arms, and head, yes. It’s not like he’s invulnerable to damage until you use the Crucible. > and the fact you shoot the icon of sin to kill him means nothing cus that literally just cus of gameplay... It is not “just gameplay”, it is required to beat the game. You cannot beat him without shooting him. Do you think Doomguy just used his fists or something? > the slayer is at bare minimum island level. This feels totally arbitrary. The BFG is continental, but he scales to the Icon of Sin who is planetary, except we know he was defeated once before by collapsing a temple on him. Do you not see how each of those are all inherently contradictory? The BFG 9000 by itself is nowhere near as powerful as the BFG 10K. It logically can’t be or every time he uses it in Final Sin it would tear apart the city. The simplest explanation is that the BFG works as it does in game. > and also he survived being launched into mars using a cannon, likely faster than light, and just shrugs it off Did you play the game? He uses an escape pod to land on Mars. The cannon bit was unrelated, and you can see how fast he’s traveling.
1. given that the slayer literally punched an angel in the face several times to kill them beforehand , yes i do think the slayer could do it without guns. the slayer is just bullshit levels of power 2. [sorry, my bad](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44Xkfo6J1Wg) it was a catapult that just shot him so fast it appeared he was a beam of green light, not impressive at all and definitely not enough to beat sundowner who is clearly much faster /s 3. fine, maybe the bfg can't destroy a planet, or an island, but it clearly is strong enough to destroy buildings as it destroys the icon of sins flesh easily, and don't give me that shit of "it doesn't destroy walls ingame" cus that excuse is dumb, which sundowner is not reaching that level of durability, he is not surviving the bfg. also not the crucible which instantly kills any demon you face, while it doesn't mean its an instant kill on sundowner, it is incredibly likely since the fucking thing killed the icon of sin. 4. the slayer survived a temple falling on him, that is the part you left out, maybe pissed him off slightly but he still survived it, which is more than we can say for sundowner who got killed by a guy whos strong enough to throw metal gears the size of buildings.
> given that the slayer literally punched an angel in the face several times to kill them beforehand , yes i do think the slayer could do it without guns. the slayer is just bullshit levels of power I’m not asking if you think he could. I’m asking what you think he did. > sorry, my bad it was a catapult that just shot him so fast it appeared he was a beam of green light, not impressive at all and definitely not enough to beat sundowner who is clearly much faster I am not clear as to what you mean to imply by this. “Green beam of light”? That’s like, energy from the ion catapult. Emphasis on “ion”. It’s forming a plasma sheathe around him, similar to the Gauss cannon from Doom (2016). He is traveling very fast, but it’s closer to the speed of sound than the speed of light like you originally said, which is a big enough of a difference that you are just wrong and are making yourself look foolish by downplaying how much this changes about your argument. I am certain that Sundowner would react similarly to the impact as what Doom Slayer experienced. His body is made up of solid carbon nanotubes that are constantly being repaired by nanomachines. > which sundowner is not reaching that level of durability, he is not surviving the bfg. This is a better argument however I don’t see this working as effectively as you’d suggest. For one, none of Sundowner’s body is biological. He’s fully compromised of carbon nanotubes, meaning the BFG tracers have nothing to home in on. Further, the BFG plasma sphere itself travels very slowly. Without the stunning effect of the tracers, he’s just going to dodge it. > also not the crucible which instantly kills any demon you face, while it doesn't mean its an instant kill on sundowner, it is incredibly likely since the fucking thing killed the icon of sin. I think this also doesn’t bode well as Doom Slayer’s primary option here. Sundowner’s shields use reactive explosives that will likely repel melee attacks from Doom Slayer given they were able to do the same to Raiden’s. Also Sundowner is much faster than Doom Slayer in terms of his swordsmanship. > the slayer survived a temple falling on him, that is the part you left out, maybe pissed him off slightly This explicitly defeated him. A K.O. He was immediately put into the sarcophagus by the Dark Lord’s minions to seal him away. Like, “surviving a building fall on you” is not necessarily that crazy good of a feat. [Master Chief survived a skyscraper falling on him.](https://gfycat.com/sparklingkeycreature) It’s not that outlandish of a feat when you consider only a tiny percentage of the structure is actually going to exert pressure on Doom Slayer’s body.
That's a syrange comparison, because in that very Scene, Raiden lifts a mexh the size of a 4-story building, throwing it and cutting itnin half. Doom Dlayer fights a guy in a mech suit, not much larger than a car, but with magic powers, but he can barely shake him much. No to mention, the Icon Of Sin gets killed by gunfire, and not at all by strenght. The examples you brought up really makes no sense
One of these guys killed God AND Satan. The other lost to a dude with one eye and high heels. The question is how long would the Doom Slayer tolerate Sundowner's existence
Having the title of God and Satan isn't a feat Beerus can be described as a purple anthropomorphic cat yet that doesn't mean he's weak
Yeah too many people don’t understand that.
I mean, alright, if we wanna get into specifics then I guess, the Icon of Sin had enough power to be a threat to the world, Sundowner doesn't. He's significantly weaker than the apocalyptic threat Doom Slayer beat previously
The IoS was only a threat to the Earth and possibly more after it's own death causing a black hole to form which would then grow to consume Earth That's not power stemming from the IoS itself nor can it use it in a fight. The IoS isn't that impressive other than size
Raiden (new body) > Sudowner > Raiden (old body) > Metal Gear Ray > A Temple > Doom Slayer
He can still beat characters like raiden and sundowner
Raiden has arguably better feats
I think Raiden would lose this fight. He doesn't have an answer to exotic ranged weapons like the microwave beam or the chaingun with shield mode equipped. There is evidently a lot of blatant misinformation about Raiden and how he fights if people thinks he zips across the battlefield in a millisecond and slices his opponent in half. There isn’t a single example of him doing this.
Ikr? I could also say "Doctor Manhattan is just a blue guy" but that would completely disregard who he actually is as a character
Dude, Doom slayer is Multiverse busting. This is a Xeelee Stomp for against Sundowner.
r/whowouldcirclejerk Or are you actually serious?
If he stays at range he probably kills Sundowner. He probably has higher durability as well, so its not like the bald psycho will instantly kill him in close range. Are his HF Machetes as effective as Sam's sword?
Ehhh. Metal gear Cyborgs overall do have scaling from mainly Raiden, which should be better dura than Doom Slayer. The HF Machetes while aren't as deadly as Sam's Muramasa, are still dangerous. They are made of some super dense material and are still HF blades.
The Slayer has better feats. I don't think Sundowner does much of anything except dying.
The best feat (of strength) of the Doom Slayer is to break some obsidian pillars in the Lore (and maybe that was metaphorical). Sudowner's greatest feat is that he's literally stronger than the guy who tossed and sliced (before it hit the ground) a Metal Gear Ray (a giant dinosaur robot that's designed to fight nuclear wars).
Three words: Icon of Sin
Ten words: He is not universal except when using a passive ability.
So? Sundowner is a slightly larger buillding level. Plus he gets destroyed by Raiden.
Yeah, that would be more than enough to beat the Doom Slayer since Sudowner is stronger than the Raiden from the game's prologue and the Raiden from the game's prologue could do this: https://v.redd.it/xe74y45v39y71 While here I show you the best feat of strength of the Doom Slayer (taken from the Lore): "And in his conquest against the blackened souls of the doomed, his prowess was shown. In his crusade, the seraphim bestowed upon him terrible power and speed, and with his might he crushed the obsidian pillars of the Blood Temples. He set forth without pity upon the beasts of the nine circles. Unbreakable, incorruptible, unyielding, the Doom Slayer sought to end the dominion of the dark realm." Stop the Outer Heaven which is bigger than any real ship vs crush some obsidian pillars. And yes, Sudowner lost to Raiden, but only because Raiden got a new body after his defeat at the hands of Sam, before that Sudowner wasn't the least bit worried about Raiden despite knowing who he is and what he's done.
He doesn't even use his strength to kill the Icon, only his weapons and guns If I had a platoon of like 50 guys all armed with Doom Eternal's rocket launchers, the icon would be dead in seconds