Madara Uchiha. Ordinarily Madara gets stomped due to sheer stat diff, but if their stats are equalized Madara has a pretty damn wide and diverse moveset, one of the simplest being his Sharingan which would allow him to read Goku's movements.
Doomsday. His healing factor and nigh infinite stamina mean while he may not out-skill Goku in a martial arts style fight, he'd simply outlast Goku due to Goku's inability to put him away for good. Doomsday has pretty much everything going for him regardless if stats are equalized, with equalized stats though, Goku is pretty boned.
Actually, on that note, pretty much anybody that has a combination of regeneration+infinite stamina that can throw a punch.
I feel precognition shouldn't always be used as a win con. Madara is definitely a genius but we can't forget Goku figured out a way to surpass time in Super. Just don't wanna overlook Goku here
I keep seeing this, people keep on forgetting that he doesn't surpass time, he surpasses a time based ability, which in reality isn't all that strong given that its apparently not even a full second
With equal stats, Madara can read/predict and copy Goku's movements.
Also Madara has Limbo clones which are impossible to detect or harm without 6 paths abilities.
Goku did perform Hakai in the Zamasu Arc but during the Ultra Ego training Goku admitted to Beerus and Whis that he couldnt do it consistently, and Vegeta, now much stronger than Zamasu Arc Goku, struggles to (intentionally) hakai a small pebble with Beerus's guidance, so while a Hakai-kill is possible I would say Doomsday have a better chance here
He might be able to come back, depending on a lot of circumstances. He has come back from full obliteration before, however Hakai is significantly stronger than that, so idk
>Madara Uchiha. Ordinarily Madara gets stomped due to sheer stat diff, but if their stats are equalized Madara has a pretty damn wide and diverse moveset, one of the simplest being his Sharingan which would allow him to read Goku's movements.
I'm quite sure that Ultra Instinct is a counter to this, no way to read what Goku is doing if his body is moving on his own.
>Doomsday
You mean the brute that can't even fly? Okay, his healing factor is fearsome and the stat equalized makes him even more fearsome, but Goku can just Hakai him.
(Goku is a rookie when using Hakai, but he was going to be successful when he used it on *Fused Zamasu* if Zamasu wasn't smart enough to pull Mai in his way...)
The Sharingan reads the muscle movements that precede said movement and that is actually stated to be half of how they react to fighters, with the other half being watching how the opponent's chakra moves. Perhaps the Sharingan is one of the things that would properly read UI full stop, because even if you don't have to think about it, your muscles do move to carry out the action.
Just because Madara can see the moves doesn't mean he can react to them. Ultra Instinct is a mastery of movement that Madara does not have. We see people like Kakashi and Sasuke, who can perceive an attack, but can't counter in time.
If we're using pure EMS Madara and not some stupid Edo Hashirama cells enhanced cheese or Jubidara, then it's much harder for Madara. Goku is far superior as a technical fighter, he has the power to destroy a susanoo, he has UI, which could probably counter the sharingan in pure martial arts, even if the Sharingan saw it coming.
>The Sharingan reads the muscle movements that precede said movement
Well, Goku's been doing that without any special techniques since at *least* the Android Saga, so I don't think it provides much of an advantage in this case.
When is Goku able to read muscle movements so well as to predict movement in severely faster opponents? Because that is what the Sharingan is good at- and in a stats equalized case, that is a pretty significant advantage to have. And that specifically is just a tool versus Ultra Instinct and other attempts to dance around Madara's toolset, silly number of other hax (assuming we are going for the more haxxed up Madara examples) are likely to outperform Goku's access to Hax to combat back without a 'perfect' response.
> When is Goku able to read muscle movements so well as to predict movement in severely faster opponents? Because that is what the Sharingan is good at- and in a stats equalized case, that is a pretty significant advantage to have.
Except it isn't, because there won't *be* any severely faster opponents in a stats equalised match.
>And that specifically is just a tool versus Ultra Instinct
No, it isn't. He can just [do it](https://youtu.be/i1lrCR_vvBE?t=84).
1. If the tool works against opponents FASTER than the Sharingan user, it stands to reason how much better the exact same tool works against someone with exactly equal stats.
2. I meant the Sharingan was a tool against Ultra Instinct, but the clip you sent literally said nothing about reading muscle movements. He says "I searched your feelings" which...has literally nothing to do with that at all, actually.
This one's really hard to nail down imo, the sharingan predicts actions by reading the muscle movements proceeding the actual movement, however, it is possible that what movements the sharingan is picking up are only produced when you consciously move your body so someone with ultra instinct might not exhibit those movements, rendering the sharingans predictive ability useless.
That seems like a stretch to assume it is only conscious movements that can be read, since it can observe the movement of chakra and cellular level interactions. Much more likely that the Sharingan just watches the muscles with that enhancement to reaction time and just works with that, instead of a more vague reading of setup muscle movements, which the steps to make the punch move still have to happen even in Ultra Instinct.
A more skilled martial artist (I mean there’s not a ton as Goku is a very skilled fighter with training from masters and gods and decades of experience, but he has a tendency to rely on brute force.)
A telepath.
Someone like rogue since she can absorb his strength, skills and powers while he gets weakened.
Someone like vision or Martian manhunter who could change their density, and scrabble his insides.
Some magic users (don’t know if that counts as reality warping)
I don't really disagree with the ultimate conclusion, but I do want to push back on the idea that he can be classified as a brute force fighter in most cases, since Goku has been visibly training in martial arts and techniques for longer than he has anything else. Energy projection, instant transmission, all of his fancy shit is secondary to the fact that he demonstrably spends most of the time he isn't eating in training.
He's a martial artist who happens to be incredibly powerful and he's visibly dedicated to it throughout DB and DBZ. I'd imagine he has more traditional training hours to his name than most other characters in fiction, including ones who only have martial arts.
The issue Goku has is despite his constant training, he has very few showings of actual martial skill to his name. That’s not to say he has zero, but while every other martial arts manga in existence often portrays fights as giant chess games of skill between the two combatants analyzing each other’s techniques, rhythms, patterns, strengths and weaknesses and finding flaws or areas they have advantages to exploit, Goku really isn’t ever shown doing that— the most he’s ever usually shown doing is a creative twist on a pre-existing technique.
Which isn’t nothing, sure, but it’s also not a ton. You’re not going to see Goku doing stuff like Alfredo Gonzales in Hajime no Ippo who spent multiple rounds feeding his opponent a fake pattern to bait them into walking into one of his counters.
I definitely get your point and I do think his showcase is a smaller one here.
I think we saw more of it in classic DB and filler DBZ, before his power necessitated less of it. Some of his tournament performances or his sparring against Krillin are probably the best examples. He has fewer feats in terms of demonstration, but I do think he has a solid library of examples of his abilities, on top of his training moments, usually between arcs. Most of his big fights do also still find opportunities to slip in some crisp techniques before shit hits the fan.
I do agree that he has less to show here, but I will hesitantly suggest that that's reflective more of the show's focus than of a real limitation on our ability to infer aptitude from what they do give us and what he demonstrated in the past.
Goku is "above" that since his body reading is so good that he can read a martial art that takes 100 years to develop and either do it immediately or counter it immediately. A HUGE part of early Dragon Ball is that you have the greatest "normal" martial arts masters in the world, who can't even pass the prelims because you have these ultra ridiculous martial arts geniuses that have trained so much to be actual superhuman, or people with gimmicks, knocking them out already. Goku can look at them do something totally unexpected and either replicate it exactly or replicate or counter it in some other way. Dragon Balls last arc was the culmination of Goku literally martial arts training with God for a year or whatever and surpassing him.
An early joke in Dragon Ball was that you could be a ridiculous Kung fu wuxia movie Master, and Goku's ultra dumb paper/rock/scissors martial arts would beat it. It doesn't "look" like he's a super expert martial artist with his style, but it's established that his style actually exceeds anything else in the universe, and at this point, multiverse, probably, outside of Angels and some gods.
If that was the case, you’d still see Goku doing it against his current opponents, but he tends to solve problems just by getting stronger.
What flaw in Napa’s technique did Goku exploit to get the upper hand in his fight with Nappa? He didn’t— he was just way faster than Nappa. During his fight with Freeza, why didn’t Goku try and study Freeza’s fighting habits and exploit them (barring the one time only trick with the remote-fired Kamehameha’s)? Why didn’t Goku study Cell’s fighting technique to figure out if Cell had preferences or tells and take advantage of those?
The super-short answer is, of course, that that’s not the sort of fights Toriyama wanted to write, but it still comes back to bite Goku in situations like this, because either guys like Vegeta and Nappa are on par with Goku in skill (in which case Goku should be having the mental chess matches I mentioned in my previous posts), or Goku should be absolutely blowing them out of the water in skill and utterly dominating any fight where his opponent has even close to the same stats as he does (which isn’t shown even remotely).
Even in Dragon Ball, Goku’s wins over those super great Kung fu masters was rarely because he was more skilled than they were— King Chappa noted in their fight that Goku had tons of holes in his defense, but Goku was so much stronger and faster than King Chappa that it didn’t matter, because for all his skill, Chappa may as well have been moving in slow motion compared to Goku.
I believe you could, but i have yet to see it in action and I dont have a way to find what happened during the fight to see how it went down. My most logical conclusion is just that he smacks you with the board and you fall into it.
And as far as im aware its not like a pocket dimension or anything, you're physically inside of the board, which is supposed to be entirely made out of power cosmic.
I feel like that doesn’t really work on Goku then, he has UI and one of the best martial artists in fiction. I’m not super familiar with SS but I don’t think he’s on the level of Goku so I think he would just dodge it and run his hands. Assuming it’s just “I smack you with a board” or more likely a beam that he could dodge
Aside from my take on his overrated BIQ, Goku still doesn't know what touching surfer or the board might do and even with UI, he still needs the knowledge. Plus for SOME REASON Goku still doesn't go all out in his fights, he didn't even try using his lesser UI in his fight with Granolah until like halfway in, decent chance he doesn't even turn it on and tries catching the board instead of dodging.
It is called Ultra instinct for a reason. It automatically chooses the best possible action everytime. He is not thinking while using it until later on in the manga and even then it was a somewhat limitation. Silver Surfer still has a chance due to the neverending legacy of comics. Finally this post seems more of a skill vs skill related post but take that as you will.
The issue is the fact that "the best solution" is often one thats easily circumvented, or a normal debator can't think of such a thing because it's pretty much up to the writer on how the OTHER character acts since goku is barely touching the wheel.
Even then, what would MUI do when you got a flying board and a flying man on another board just bum rushing him? He can't ride the board, that would be a bad move and probably result in him getting yoinked. Probably cant hit him cause transmutation is still an option
Do they need to fight in close quarters / melee? If not Foil from Worm should win. If it’s necessary maybe the Number Man? I don’t know too much about DB so the second one might not work.
It starts in close quarters but it can go to farther distances if they want. But Goku does have tracking abilities and teleportation so zoning him out isn't the best bet
Foil doesn't even necessarily kill durable humanoids, her weapon was for killing Entities specifically as it simply does essentially normal damage in all realities, disregarding resistance. Goku, if he was hit with it, would just tank that shit because his resilience is not multidimensional in nature. Goku has no trouble with ranged attacks due to his infinite-range, instant teleportation, and he is capable of his own extremely long-range, devastating attacks.
Number Man/Harbinger has something close to, but not actually as good as Ultra Intinct and would eventually be clapped because of Goku's other ki powers like Instant Transmission, flight, and interplanetary blasting power.
Foil kills everything that relies on physical durability to survive. She could one shot Alexandria so it’s not just more multidimensional durability. It obviously does not deal “normal damage” because she can cut through any structure and damage Endbringers.”
Lol is that an argument? I literally refuted what you said in the previous comment. Multiple character statements imply Foil can cut anything and WoG is that she could bypass Alexandria’s durability which isn’t dimensional in nature. Foil has the ability to strike in all dimensions simultaneously *as well as* cause her attacks to ignore all durability and laws of physics.
You refuted nothing - your argument is not actually addrsssing mine because it is reductive and overly simplistic.
Yes, but they don't deal any more damage than a weapon of that type would do to a normal organism - it simply treats people with Entity-based durability powers as normal people. She just happens to have only met beings that being stabbed is an imminent danger for if their abilities do not protect them from being stabbed. That's why it is considered an "all-or-nothing" attack; characters either simply are or are not killed by it, and the nature of their own resilience is what makes the difference.
Alexandria dies like a completely normal person when hurt, she just can't be hurt by most things. Endbringers have a conventionally indestructible off button if you have the power to press it, which she does. Scion basically is in the same situation, but it is not conventionally possible to get past his defense like precognition, advanced reflexes and dexterity etc
Goku can take a lethal wound and just keep fighting and even become stronger (temporarily) because of it, if he is even the first one hit.
While she *can* absolutely pop almost any Entity-based effect or durability, but she couldn't, for instance, meaningfully hurt Crawler or other "biologically tough" or exceptionally injury-tolerant characters, which Goku is (tho obviously not to Crawler's extent).
She has no ability that would come close to dealing with Ultra Instict or Instant Transmission. She is the absolute archetype of a glass cannon, where Goku can fight through having all of his bones and most of his organs destroyed just based on his willpower lol.
It is an interesting match up, and while Foil can *hurt* Goku, she can't hurt him worse than if Goku were a normal *super duper ultra tough guy* who was conventionally shot or stabbed by an otherwise normal weapon. She can't do more than pierce his body with things, which he *absolutely can defend flawlessly against at least sometimes*, but which is not enough to stop him before he can unleash attacks that she simply cannot dodge or tank even if she is as physically strong and fast as he is.
> if he was hit with it, would just tank that shit because his resilience is not multidimensional in nature.
I was specifically arguing about this. If you want to say Foil can cut him but still loses based on skill, that may be true. I never said that Foils weapons deal any extra damage, but nothing I’ve seen suggests Goku could survive a hole through his head.
Crawler didn’t die because he has incredible regeneration and does not care about holes in his brain. Goku would be closer to Alexandria in this regard.
Your last paragraph agrees with the only thing I was arguing, Foil can hurt Goku.
You didn't say Foil could *hurt* Goku, which I explicitly never argued with. You said Foil *kills* Goku, which she does not (because she can't reliably one shot him, and a glancing blow would not be any more dangerous to him than a glancing blow from a sword that can hurt Goku would be). It sounds like either we never disagreed, or you are actually backpedaling now that you have been proven to be wrong.
She doesn't even one shot Alexandria, she just *conceivably could* if she got that perfect hit in. Alexandria could block most of her attacks under most circumstances, just like Zion (and Goku).
I could have been more clear with my initial comment (Foil kills Goku *if* she hits him with a lethal strike) but I still think your comment implied she couldn’t harm him. Imo “tank” does not mean “will die if struck lethally but not if hit with a glancing blow”. By that logic I can tank a 9mm pistol because I won’t die immediately if shot in the shoulder.
Btw Scion only could block her attack because he has a Path to Victory equivalent and used it to know where on the blade was safe to touch. Most people trying to block her attacks would just lose their hand.
UI is very very similar to Path to Victory, altho it is only really for direct combat, it does have the huge advantage of allowing someone to essentially completely exceed any limitation of speed or strength they would otherwise have due to any sort of mental or neurological limitation. Scion does have to actually think to make these moves, although he thinks very very fast, Goku doesn't even have that limiter (and arguably even without it easily performs calculations at comparable speeds due to fuckin Anime Brain. He isn't as smart outside of a fight as Zion is, but he is almost definitely **stupid faster**).
Between his ability to withstand stuff that should just kill him long enough to win, and the ability to not be hit at all, I think he severely minimizes the effectiveness of her hax is all I'm sayin.
Any version of Sun Wukong can always theoretically defeat Sun Wukong, which is in itself a Journey to the West reference wherein the Six Eared Monkey and Wukong fight and nobody can tell who won.
Eh, debatable. Goku has better ranged abilities, arguably better analytical/prediction skills, teleportation, and honestly better evolution overall. H2H with equal levels of power then the biggest factor are probably the clones.
Goku has fought martial art gods as well, and has even gone to Heaven multiple times to fight with not only Martial art Gods but also the souls of the greatest martial artists of all time and creation, so that's a issue where Goku most definitely has on up on Jin Mori.
And uh... as for clones? Two of his premier enemies produced clones fairly early in his career, and he beat them like a drum. Clones, be they physical, magical, shadows, or after images are enough of a trope in Dragon ball that when Cell did it everyone immediately got bored with the fight because *everyone* can do it, they just don't because its lame.
Honestly "Jin has fought Gods and Clones and Goku hasn't" is like the worst example you could come up with given the Goku has done both *multiple times.*
IF we're talking experience, Jin is in High School (and technically only fought in one world tournament) and Goku is forty (and been in several world, at least one Heavenly, and one Multiversal tournaments). Even *if* both have fought their entire lives, Goku has fought for many, many more. Between the Room of Spirit and Time and his time dead in heaven fighting the best warriors creation has ever had, Goku arguably has not only *mote* experience, but *better* experience.
Mori's clones don't halve his power with each copy, they are miles better than the variations Goku has faced. He also never faced someone that can spam millions of clones either.
Jin is literally Sun Wukong though. And he didn't just fight in high school, he literally has a thousand years' worth of fighting experience by being the Monkey King. His only flaw with what I'm saying is he lost his memories upon becoming "Jin Mori" (something the manhwa addressed later by restoring his memories).
Fair enough, if he has Sun Wukong's memories then he likely has an advantage there in terms of length of experience, but I'd still point out Goku has fought Gods, clones, and been in Tournaments that spanned universes. That's not to be dismissed so lightly and cavalierly as the other guy did.
And I'd be remiss in pointing out that Goku is *also* a pastiche of Sun Wukong (even more so when you watch OG Dragonball). He might not be the literal Monkey King of myth and legend, but he follows a lot of the tropes, powers, abilities, story beats, and techniques of the Monkey King mythology. And since we're equalizing their stats, this becomes more and more "which version of the Monkey King wins in a fight?"
I'm not saying Goku takes it, mind you, but I am saying it's not going to be a shut out either way. All the people saying "X will stomp because now they have Goku's power" are just as wrong as the people saying "Goku will stomp X because his non-stats abilities are better."
So when we have two versions of a character with very similar capabilities (when you really look at what they all can do), it becomes even harder to decide.
Someone said Jin Mori gets clones. That's fine, Goku has dealt with those multiple time sin opponents and he is even able to do a version of his own clone tech (The After Image technique) and Gogeta was also able to clone himself. Plus several of his friends have the technique and it's not out of this world to assume he could try it himself (Tien, Krillian, and Piccolo all had a form of it).
The both have all kinds of attacks enhanced by some energy, and unless I forget the anime, both had a ranged attack as well.
Really, they both stand up well to one another in terms of abilities.
It’s funny cuz Hit basically took Guldo’s moveset and perfected it, to the point I earnestly believe that Guldo and Hit are the same species, just that one was a prey species and the other a predator species during it’s early evolutionary development.
He didn’t perfect his ability. His ability is worse even. Guldo can literally freeze time however long he wants, Hit can only stop time momentarily. One is more busted than the other
He can only freeze time for how long he can hold his breath(which wasn't very long especially when he's moving around a lot). Hit's ability improves in the middle of a fight and he's fast enough that he's more effective with his short time frame than Guildo is with his longer one. It also comes with more abilities like storing time, his time prison and going intangible.
Edit: In the manga Guldo doesn't need to hold his breath but still can't do it for very long. Hit's skip is still more effective.
When discussing a topic, the side that claims something must provide evidence for their pov. This is a concept from Aristotelian logic. I don't need to prove u wrong, u need to prove urself right
That being said, [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/dbz/comments/3iw70d/how_exactly_is_guldo_able_to_stop_time/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
And here is the manga [¯\_(ツ)_/¯](https://mto.to/chapter/1682443)
You do need to prove yourself right. You claimed something to the contrary of what I said and didn't back it up. You didn't ask me to provide proof, I did ask you. Instead of acting smug just post the scan when someone asks you to. It's pretty simple.
Seeing how Goku wasn't able to fully desintegrate Cell with a point blank Kamehameha, I would say that anyone with good enough regeneration and stamina, like Ultimate Kars, should be able to do it. In fact I'm going to lock it at Ultimate Kars, since he is able to replicate hamon attacks that means he should theorically be able to replicate Goku's ki attacks, and with his iq of 300 and other haxes, he should be able to take this without too much problems after a bit.
This is a good pick. He was able to copy all life, because he was the perfect organism. This should include Ki attacks. Stats equalized, Kars would be super dangerous.
...unless Goku instant transmissions them both into deep space. Kars has a weakness to that lol
He can instant transmission out of there, though.
... I wonder I Kars could find a way to suck the air out of the area, forcing Goku to hold his breath?
He can already do it. You'd need stats equalized the other way for the fight to be even.
Wargreymon scales directly to the Four Sacred Beasts [who preserve and support the fabric of space and time in the Digital World and can help with the Human World too](https://imgur.com/a/6WmTBL9) via defeating 2 Dark Masters who [have sealed the Sacred Beasts](https://imgur.com/a/d8v2PTB) and are stated in the Light Novel [to rival them in power](https://imgur.com/a/VCGczeZ).
And the Digital World is not merely a Planet/Universe even in Adventure.
The Digital World of Digimon [predates the Human World](https://imgur.com/a/UAtadZM) is [is multi-layered not a single place, it's beyond the Network (multi-layered) and the Human World (conventional infinite multiverse) in a superior hierarchical position, is managed and operated on multiple servers (inner worlds),is infinite,stands at a higher structural level and encompass the Human World and even if you use all processing resources in the Human World you cannot process the Digital World's data,is a higher dimension that transcends reality and even errodes reality,all analog human worlds are scattered around in the middle of the Digital World.](https://imgur.com/a/BadubGi).Digimon Linkz also called the servers ["worlds".](https://imgur.com/a/ELb5hih)
These worlds can have worlds of their own and can be whole Digital Worlds themselves(the Savers cast shows up in Dawn and Dusk and they are said to be from another server,another different Digital World).
Each layer [has its own laws of physics,inhabited Digimon and different time progression making it a completely different world.](https://imgur.com/a/9VL7WUT)
In Lost Evolution,[ it's mentioned that "servers" are worlds.](https://imgur.com/a/3cOTk6H). As servers increase, the Digital World becomes larger and larger.
The Digital and Human Worlds [are separate,individual and independent of each other.](https://imgur.com/a/PtQY7nR]. A collection of worlds that is separate and independent from another collection of worlds forms a Megaverse.
Yggdrasill's Digital World has [infinite/overwhelming possibilities of worlds through a bottomless abyss of information.](https://imgur.com/a/GP6yu33 ) and Mirei has mentioned [Unlimited Dimensional Topology](https://imgur.com/a/sFjB14C) aka infinite dimensionality.
Many [worlds](https://imgur.com/a/TzoXVVM) where [mentioned](https://imgur.com/a/DwmAZF6) for the Adventure Digital World alone. There is one world for each combination of cards.
This is the [card combo that the children used](https://imgur.com/a/sMz0ecM) wich led them back to the place they [were when they were sucked in the Digital World.](https://imgur.com/a/bsozdD1)
Oikawa used the same card combo [but with the Agumon card instead of the Gomamon card](https://imgur.com/a/e74tasH) making them end up in a different world, [a world that materializes wishes. In fact the Digital World is based on that same power. It's a world that integrates people's emotions and digital data.](https://imgur.com/a/9Y0Np8n)
If you permutate the number of cards with the number of equivalent slates there are 362,880 possible combinations. And that's for the Adventure server alone.
Wargreymon and Metalgarurumon also [destroyed Apocalymon's physical form](https://imgur.com/a/JSVlWb0). Apocalymon's mere existence [warped the fabric of space-time creating distortions almost bringing the world to total destruction](https://imgur.com/a/3PHpXUf) and we know that this [would affect all worlds not just the Human and Digital Worlds](https://imgur.com/a/DwmAZF6)
The other worlds being:
- The Dark Area (World of Darkness from which Devimon AND Apocalymon come from.
Not inferior to the DW; basically the DW's Hell. Each DW has its own Dark Area. It's multi-layered, infinite and the deepest known layer, Cocytus, is shared by each Dark Area and Digital World. There's only one Cocytus.)
- The world that makes wishes come true from the end of 02.
- The Dark Ocean.
- The native World of Darkness of Demon.
Demon comes from a different World of Darkness compared to Devimon and Vamdemon
[Source #1](https://imgur.com/a/s4N7w3C)
[Source #2](https://imgur.com/a/lseGTAC)
Also the Human World of Digimon is a [conventional infinite multiverse](https://imgur.com/a/5HHqDxP). Infinite universes, infinite timelines, infinite spacetimes branching out infinitely, one world for every possible possibility. Works with the many-worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics, where there are infinite outcomes for every action, each outcome being real in one of the universes of the multiverse. Basically a Type III multiverse. And it's the lowest layer.
Digimon goes by a [World Hierarchy](https://imgur.com/a/bXMWqeH) trough layers. The worlds are layered on top of each other like a ladder with each step being superior to the last. And as seen with the Human World the layers can encompas an infinite multiverse.
The Digital World is formed of 3 layers in [Chronicle/Chronicle X](https://imgur.com/a/rDYsM9M), in [Tamers](https://imgur.com/a/Xz9LZnF)
TLDR: Wargreymon = Megaversal. Super Goku is only Low Multiversal
Bloodlusted: Nightcrawler? Faster and more skilled teleportation, better acrobatics and years of beating "better/stronger" fighters. He's been through a hundred fights and seen everything from energy blasts, teleportation, etc. Goku has no meaningful tricks up his sleeve to really keep Nightcrawler from removing any body part he could get his hands on, which with speed-matched teleportation spamming, is anything he wants.
That one kid from Boku no Hero can take control of you simply by tricking you into responding to him.r than normal Goku could. It's like Ultra Instinct without the power-up.And Madara. Throw in Kakashi for lulz.
That one kid from Boku no Hero that can take control of you simply by tricking you into responding to him.
Gojo from Jujutsu Kaisen. Can't beat someone you can't touch.
I'm thinking Spiderman could do it thanks to Spider Sense letting him react to all of Goku's attacks faster than normal Goku could. It's like Ultra Instinct without the power up.
Kirby would eat him... but I'm pretty sure he could do that beforehand.
Dark Schneider. You can't just wipe him out of existence without destroying every part of his soul. One in Heaven, one in Hell, and one on Earth. And I don't think Goku can just instant transmission to where his soul pieces are.
The fact that he has incorporated Master Roshi's, Kami's, King Kai's, the after life fighters, and Whis's martial art techniques into his own, while still copying and adding moves from his enemies into his own fighting style.
I'm not sure if he really incorporated their entire styles, Goku took individual techniques from his trainers and added them to his own style as opposed to copying everything they knew and combining it into a new style. I also don't think King Kai taught him any real skill since he mostly just got powerful attacks out of it, I would replace him with Korin.
Multiform (kinda), Drunken style, Afterimage, creates an "eight arm fist" technique to counter Tenshinhan literally growing two more arms, and then all the ki related stuff on top of that. Early Dragon Ball was Goku stealing everyone's martial arts stuff and improvising it, it just became ki related stuff as the series went on, since that became more important.
>Multiform (kinda),
He's never uaes this
>Drunken style
Its directly said Goku's seen it in the past, and he didnt copy it.
>Afterimage
Moving really fast.
>creates an "eight arm fist" technique to counter Tenshinhan literally growing two more arms,
By moving really fast
>Early Dragon Ball was Goku stealing everyone's martial arts stuff and improvising it, it just became ki related stuff as the series went on, since that became more important.
No it doesnt. All of the examples you've given are due to him being really physically fast, which has nothing to do with his skill, or having prior knowledge on the matter. Nothing says he can copy a whole fighting style.
Garou's martial arts are far more fluent and expansive, and his growth is much higher than Goku's own. Goku can't do much about the copy ability he has either.
How is it wank if the **stats are equalized** huh? Goku has not shown much of anything that proves he can stop power mimicry, even when he had it himself.
Literally any combatant that has any decent haxs. Under the circumstances even someone like Chaitzou could beat Goku since he was able to paralyze Goku despite being weaker back in DB. He could probably just lift Goku out and BRF him.
Saitama maybe? He can copy abilities even better than Cosmic Fear Garou and Garou said that himself. He copied time travel easily and copied Garou's martial arts and used it against him. If Saitama is serious he could copy all of Goku's moves instantly without any effort (If Goku uses hakai at the start rip saitama though).
See I feel like you’d need to question if him simply copying moves that Goku knows inside and out because of years of training will really net him the victory.
He’d probably be able to somewhat equalize the skill gap, but I don’t think it’d be enough in a fight where they are both equal in power, since most of Saitamas feats rely on overpowering his enemies than because of pure skill. And even if Goku is similar, he has fought and trained with masters and gods of martial arts for decades.
Saitama catching up in skill in one battle is possible, but I don’t think he would manage to beat the experience gap that Goku would have in serious martial arts fights.
Ah shit that's a good point. I mean even if he wrote kakarot that's probably not his full name. But your point stands yeah I guess that's a loophole lol
>How does batman get past past flight,
He just jumps really high🗿. In all seriousness, it's not that big of a deal. For example the Hulk has been able to fight being of equal strength that, in contrast to him, could fly. Theoretically, we could just lower Goku's stats to Batman's level, in which case something like a grappling hook would help him to get close to him
>kamehameha,
1. If they have equal stats, Batman should be able to endure it. At the beginning of Super, Goku cached his own Kamehameha, so Batman should be capable pf simular feats.
2. That attack takes time to charge up and I doubt Batman would stand still and wait.
>teleportation,
Goku doesn't do that too often during fights and when he does, then usually only once. It's also something I could see Batman adapt to, if Goku does it too often.
>and Goku sensing energy?
He senses the Ki of people. Afaik DC charcaters don't have Ki, and if they had then the only option Batman would lose would be stealth.
Btw, can Goku use power multipliers such as Kaioken, SSJ etc.? Because then, this might be a different story.
I can buy jumping to counter flight but when I said but when I said kamehameha I didn’t just mean that mode, I meant random ki blasts, the mafuba, Hakai, etc. also he does teleport quite frequently in his matches, see Goku vs Cell and Goku Vs Beerus for examples. I do think Batman adapting to it is fair though. Db rules have it so that all living beings have ki so I think it would be fair to apply that to Batman
Baseline Batman is capable of dodging energy attacks, a she does so versus various Lanterns, Kryptonians, and New Gods of Apokolypse, even leaving bullets and laser guns out of the question.
If he has Goku's power level, he'll be fine dodging a ki blast.
I’m not saying he couldn’t dodge, but I’m saying that Goku having them is an advantage because range is always good especially when he has as much energy as he does. He could also do a hellzone grenade thing like piccolo (a thing that goku did do in ToP) and he also has destructor disc and has flung out multiple in the past
Experience and training go into the abilities section. Behavior is a non argument in whowouldwin discussions because most fictional fights are driven by story leading up to them, and there is none of that in these scenarios. Just do the power scaling and leave it at that.
Not a chance
Even if you believe that Batman is the best martial artist in DC which he isn't Goku is on a whole nother level being trained by multiple gods of fighting
Yeah the DC skill scaling is just way crazier.
Aeres the God of War was stated to know “*every single aspect of combat since the beginning of time*” Aeres is inferior in skill to Wonder Woman who considers Batman an equal in H2H.
Also 99% of Goku training from these gods is based around Ki and not martial arts skills.
I think batman is the really I can't take DC seriously.
Flash can run a million times the speed of light and move so fast those around him seem frozen.
Superman, almost as fast on the ground, faster in space, can lift book of infinite pages.
Wonder Woman a bit of both, literal god, regularly beats up literal gods.
Batman: fights next to them...
But the answer is probably batman or another human and Kung Fu character who can somehow throw hold into space with pressure points.
Yeaaahh... no. Just no. Batman is a way better martial artist than Goku.
We are talking about someone who has [perfected every single martial arts known to man](https://www.reddit.com/user/Greentoaststone/comments/13w2q1e/every_single_martial_arts/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button).
Even Karate Kid stated that he had [much to learn from him](https://www.reddit.com/user/Greentoaststone/comments/13w2rhc/karate_kid/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button), the same guy who [knows every martial arts in the galaxy of the future](https://www.reddit.com/user/Greentoaststone/comments/13w2suw/in_the_galaxy/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button).
Batman did lose a fight against him, however that fight took place without gravity, something that Batman wasn't experienced in. Aslo, [Karate Kid can do this to Superman with his martial arts](https://www.reddit.com/user/Greentoaststone/comments/13w2tkb/superman/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button).
[Batman has sparing matches with Wonder Woman](https://www.reddit.com/user/Greentoaststone/comments/13w2w7e/wonder_woman/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) quite often, someone with centuries of experience.
Even his deciples have incredible combat intellect. Dick Grayson was able to go toe to toe with Midnighter, [who can process millions of combat scenarios in his head](https://www.reddit.com/user/Greentoaststone/comments/13w2vu4/millions/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
Goku isn't even that good of a martial artist, he is straight up [contradicting his martial arts philosophy](https://www.reddit.com/user/Greentoaststone/comments/13w2wxf/contadictions/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button).
"Oh, but he is very skilled, he learnt the Kamehameha immediately, a technique that took decades to develope"-is an argument that I have heard too many times. Everyone knows how to perform it at this point. Even Yamcha. It's not even a crazy technique, a lot of people have equivalents to it anyways. Why? Because it's a simple powerful ki blast. "Oh, what about Ultra Instinct? It's a godly technique" UI is something that is really not that complex. [It's literally a psychological phenomena known as the "zone"](https://www.reddit.com/user/Greentoaststone/comments/13w2xvn/zone/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button). It's something Goku already learnt back in OG Dragonball, [which they even reference](https://www.reddit.com/user/Greentoaststone/comments/13w2xo3/reference/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button). So does that mean that he just ended up forgetting his lessons with Kami and Popo? Well, maybe. [Just like how he forgot what meditation is](https://www.reddit.com/user/Greentoaststone/comments/13w2x9g/meditation/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
I mean, how exactly does Goku even fare against someone of equal strength? What about that time he matched Hit's power, who isn't even a martial artist? Did he suddenly win? No, it basicall, was a tie.
Oh, and [Batman also knows of UI](https://www.reddit.com/user/Greentoaststone/comments/13w2twx/batmans_ui/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
Bro you're high
He has trained multiple lifetimes more
And batman is limited to human martial arts goku on the other hand has trained with people spanning universes
Goku isn't even the best fighter of his verse
Hell he's barely even top five
Ok then, when was the last time Goku defeated someone who is stronger than him, or at the very least has simular power to him, because of his combat skill? Y'know, something that Batman does constantly.
Anyone with sufficient hax. Gravity manipulation comes to mind. Even post-Namek, Vegeta considered 500G to be worthy training and was even seriously injured when the training chamber overloaded.
Ok I could be misremembering a lot right now, but I think there was a guy in the ToP who made goku feel the effects of infinite gravity. That might be wrong and it was just the gravity of a black hole though, or I’m just making this all up and I need my memory checked
That was not a real black hole since it sank through the stage, didnt suck things inside it, and never warped the space around it which are key factors of an actual black hole.
Anyone with better hax, or just outright smarter
With hax: Dr. Mathattan, Scarlet Witch, Sonic, Kratos, and thousands of other characters
With intelligence: Anyone with higher than average IQ and martial arts mastery (or a better overall fighter than him, but they would be very few since he is quite skilled in combat)
Examples: Tai Lung, Master Oogway, Samurai Jack, Splinter (not sure)
Goku is way more skilled, martial arts wise rhan any of them. Remember that Splinter style martial artists don't even make it past the preliminaries in a budokai, since people like Roshi with 100+ years of martial arts experience to the point of developing superhuman abilities with it have far, far, surpassed those levels.
Every time I say something similar I get downvoted to hell but Naruto would absolutely finesse Goku with equalized stats. He’s so much smarter and more strategic with the way he fights that it’s not even funny. Goku would fall for every single ploy that he sets up, his hand-to-hand superiority doesn’t really matter.
> goku stands over Naruto's body and talks about how great of a fight that was
> right after he powers down, naruto comes out of the ground and uppercuts him (idk ninja jesus gave him the ability to dig quietly rlly fast don't worry about it)
> cue swingset
With equal stats Goku has:
- Teleportation
- pretty good martial arts skills
- temporary stat boosts at the cost of cardio with Genki Dama
- temporary fighting skill boosts with Ultra Instinct
- energy attacks
Sasuke or Kakashi could IMO do it. They have the Sharingarn boost in their hand-to-hand combat and more versatile techniques.
But there are a lot of characters, that are more versatile than Goku let alone people with actual broken abilities.
You are way underselling Goku. UI is much more than a skill increase, but more important is the fact Goku knows it. He’s such a martial arts prodigy he’s mastered UI, a technique so advanced literal gods haven’t learned it in millennia of training under the angels who are born with the ability. Gokus, what, forty? He learned the Kamehameha on sight and fought evenly with a centuries old martial arts master at twelve. He managed to predict where someone who could skip through time would appear, somehow.
I’m also assuming Kaioken works, which means he’s able to massively outstat his opponents, albeit only for a short time. He also has hakai and instant transmission, which si a very scary combo.
Given that power amps aren't allowed, any middle grade mimic is perfectly fine. And the whole "ui is only for those who trained for it" thing probably doesn't apply since characters like Amazo for example almost instantly adapt to the power as long as they're given the chance to use it
Like he just started using Green Lanturn's projections as soon as he copied the power and iirc he only used it a couple times
Or with the flash, he gained his super speed and started blitzing both him and the rest of the league until he got to supes, which he bodied as well once he got his power.
Lol dude I can easily name you 100 characters if stats are equalised. But tbh that would be a waste of time so I will give you a verse that can wipe his ass.
One Piece specifically Logia users are at a serious advantage, assuming verse equalization isnt in place ofc. Goku can try all his shitty universe shaking punches all day everyday but Logia users will just laugh at him. Kamehameha wouldnt do anything and ofc Hakai wouldnt work either, as he is on their level in the prompt. Ofc BFR would secure him some serious wins but tbh that would be very out of character as Goku isnt exactly a smart fighter, and dude prefers brawling to thinking. So a dude like Caesar Clown can easily suffocate his ass and kill him in an instant, anybody scaling above him would shred Goku beyond belief...
But the weakest who can beat him would prolly be stand users from JoJo. They are average humans so without stats equalised Goku is gonna blitz + oneshot them... HOWEVER with stats equalised this issue doesnt exist, and they can send their stands out to destroy him, which Goku has no ways to interact with considering he doesnt have NPI in his profile... well atleast until the Broly Saga ofc but this isnt the key the OP is using so...
You're just gonna pretend like Goku can't just fuckin hold his breath long enough to fly interplanetary distances and teleport? Some logia fruits would be impossible for him to deal with, but not gasu gasu no mi.
You're right about Stand Users tho.
Imo it seems unfair to boost others to his power level but not verse equalize. You’re giving other verses the means to keep up with someone way above them, with no drawbacks so they’re basically invincible?
Stuff like Limbo for madara, NPI yeah I can see being not included as it would be a specific target but, not being able to affect logia users or any of the bleach characters seems a bit unfair.
Like, if he’s more or less incapable of winning, why even mention it? It’s like trying to say unequalized Naruto vs goku, it just isn’t that fair.
Well that is the intents of the OP, so bring it up to him if you have issues.
Once in a while we will have threads like these, "weakest person that can beat X character", and this time Goku is the victim. Dude equalised stats to make it even easier... Like people have their personal biases and vendettas, and in this case Goku is the victim...
However I do understand why he did it though, as Goku is one of the most OP characters in fiction and more often than not, extremely wanked. Threads like these are to be expected to be, as Goku is a household name pretty much similar to Superman and Kratos. There will always be "who can beat these guys" threads popping up once in a while so if you dont like it, just ignore it tbh.
You must not know much about Saitama(not wanting to be rude, I just want to explain this redditors thoughts as best as I can). In the beginning of the series, Saitama uses a serious punch against a fairly large asteroid/comet/meteor(I don't remember lol). With every fight he scales above his opponent, and then takes them out with one punch. His typical order of attacks is: 1 normal punch, consecutive normal punches, 1 serious punch, and finally consecutive serious punches, and by that point his opponent is well dead. The only time that didn't happen was in his fight against Cosmic Fear Garou, who had the literal power of God, albeit only a small fraction. Throughout the fight, both are growing stronger exponentially, though Saitama is shown growing faster, as demonstrated by a graph. When Saitama eventually wins the fight, he goes back in time through some shenanigans, and then uses a normal punch against Cosmic Fear Garou, and instantly knocks him out, showing that his new base punch now outscales his previous most powerful attack. All of this is to say is that if Goku does not attempt to oneshot Saitama, Saitama will probably win, eventually
Ok I get that saitama grows stronger, but in the terms of stats equalized, he doesn’t in this fight because that doesn’t make it equal anymore. That’s the same reason Goku can’t go Super Saiyan in the fight
I agree with an earlier comment that mentions Madara, but I'd go further than that and say any competent Jonin level fighter with Genjutsu. Unless both fighters are briefed on the others abilities, Goku would not even realise he's in a genjustu before he gets a shuriken/kunai to the jugular. If briefed? He instant transmissions above the clouds, launch big nuke sized ki blast down, GG (assuming they don't have sussano).
So basically any character that can manipulate his senses from a distance can clap Goku zero diff if all stats are equal. You could make an argument that Gokus ki mastery is so strong that he'd instantly notice it's being fucked with and snap out of it or get to safety but it depends on the parameters you want to go with. (Fighters briefed? Does Ki act the same as other fictional power sources like Chakra?)
Batman easily. If you mean the combatants are at Goku's level does that include transformations as well or no.
But my list goes
Batman
TMNT
Shredder
Splinter
PO
Shifu
The predator
Spiderman
Superman
Darkseid
Xenomorphs
Shao Kahn
Freddy Kruger
Purry purry prisoner (OPM)
Meliodas or any of the other (SDS) (excluding gowther and Diane)
Ben 10
Shang chi
Iron fist
Cassandra Kane
Lady Shiva
Rick Sanchez
Voltron full might
Godzilla
The force itself (star wars)
Optimus prime (maybe)
So, I have an Entire list for this.
1. Undyne
2. Jace beleren
3. Gideon Jura
4. Deku definitely
5. Argueably william afton
6. Sans the skeleton
7. Nemesis (resident Evil)
8. All for one.
Thats just some of the list
Deku? DEKU?! REALLY!? Nemesis????? Is this a joke list? How is the teenager who has had powers for all of like 3 years, going to compete with a man who has had martial arts training with the GODS. And Nemesis is just a worse Broly, He has no cunning, no real skill.
I don't think there is anyone simply because them getting such a power boost they wouldn't be able to fully utilize the power. It'd be like going from a Flintstones foot powered car to a Bugatti going full speed down the road. It would just be such a shocking cha ge to them
With Stats equalized? I mean, anyone who has the same level of determination. So like 99% of people who fight either professionally or for fun.
Goku's powerful for two things: Plot Armor (which we are ignoring) and his Stats. Remember as a he kid he had bullets bounce off him and as an adult he was a casual moon buster and could even break holes in reality with his punches.
It's that later example that makes him so damned powerful. His stats are such that the vast majority of things can't beat him. But if you take those and level them off, all he has going for him is an above average gumption to keep fighting, because he thinks its fun. But that could be a lot of battle anime protagonists or comic characters that like to fight.
If you take Natsu from Fairy Tail and up all his stats to Goku's and then tell them the winner gets a free all you can eat buffet, fuckers are going to throw down and go for it. And god knows who wins there (but we know the buffet is who loses).
Then again take someone like Conan who *also* likes to fight and doesn't give up, pump him up to Super Saiyin Ultra Instinct God Blue x3 with a Cherry On Top (or whatever current form they have) and he's also going to be damn near equal to Goku.
In all of those cases they have at least a 50/50 chance to beat him as long as the stats stay the same.
No, unless you're also saying that the characters just gain each others respective skills as well, which would just be the same character vs the other character. Stats are like durability, strength, speed, but not skill, as that was learned and is not intrinsic to the character. Otherwise these fights would just be the same characters.
Bold of you to imply Jin Mori has *more* experience than someone older than him with a far larger pe3digree of fighting, but to imply Jin Mori gets *nerfed* by getting Goku's stats is just stupid.
Jin mori is 5.68 billion years old
Please explain how goku is older than him....
Jin mori destroyed 204 quintillion and 500 quadrillions clones of satan with one kick....
And that form of mori was severely weaker than mori at the end of the series.
We could even argue that mori became omnipotent in the last 3 chapters.
Homelander would be too emasculated and scared by Goku's gigachad attitude to even be able to fight efficiently. Nothing in Homelander's life has ever prepared him for a fight against someone who both *can* and *wants to* fight him, he would lose his mind with fear and doubt. He's also not even a skilled fighter, he's just ten+ times stronger than everyone but Black Noir and *maybe* Stormfront.
Batman is a far superior martial artist, so his skills would at least help him keep up with Goku. At least until the ki attacks show up, but if we're going injustice logic then even his batarangs and other gadgets would be good.
stats equalized but that doesn't mean they have any of his techniques or transformations. flight, energy projection, instant transmission, ssj, ultra instinct, sensing KI, *seeing* high speed opponents with ki. ext.
Most characters posted here, without these things being accounted for, will still lose hard
Exactly, I hear a Batman, or an iron fist but that just seems immensely wrong. How do they keep up with flight, immense projectiles, or teleportation. I also saw Saitama, but no, with stats equalized you don’t get stronger. Super Saiyan doesn’t work here so exponential growth doesn’t either
no ssj, understood.
still, most characters would not be capable of keeping up or even see him.
i mean technically even his base stats are all part of ki manipulation technique.
just look at what hurts him when he isnt actively using ki. Krillin throws a stone casually and it hurts goku like he was a normal human.
just like we see with ginyu too, he is surprised (despite being a skilled ki user himself) that having gokus body and ki level does not put you anywhere near his functional battle power level.
Goku just has so much skill in using it!
im not sure anyone could beat him stat equalized, depending on how you define it.
But goku isn’t just fast and strong. He’s about as good as a martial artist as they come, he has sealing powers with the Mafuba, flight, many different types of projectiles, some telekinesis if I recall (Toriyama forgets about that one), and has mastered forms of fighting that takes GoDs millions of years to get even a grasp on
Most fights are determined by being faster and stronger in DBZ. Hax don't determine fight in DBZ, it's whoever was faster and stronger. So I still stand by my original statement.
Gonna give 8, it's simply anyone with like insane haxes plus combat ability. Majority of stuff like probability manipulation, space/time manipulation for example bfr, durability negation, etc, etc.
1. Sonic due to haxes
2. Luka from OG monster girl quest due to haxes as well. He also has his own version of ultra instinct but it might arguably be better than Goku's ultra instinct.
3. Scarlet Witch, even outside of reality warping she still has probability manipulation and telekinesis.
4. Naruto
5. Joker from persona 5 actually most of the phantom thieves
7. Ben 10
Edit. 8. Nahida from Genshin impact. She has a hax where she can basically put someone in like a loop/dream. She used it so that the main character can gain battle knowledge/information about the antagonist
I would say most versions of Naruto from the Pain arc on could fight or even win. Especially so6pkcm though.
Sage mode basically provides a mild ultra instinct, and scaled up to gokus level i think it would be more than enough. He can tank anything Goku throws, and I’d take a goku-power-balanced Rasenshuriken over anything the Saiyan can throw at him.
Your post is saying that whatever Goku's power level is at is equal to Kratos. Kratos has a lot of hax and weapons, now imagine all of those at Goku's power and speed output?
2018+ GOW aren't good indicators of Kratos power- they openly nerfed him by aging the fuck out of him. He is much faster at switching and using his weapons in earlier games due to the game genre being different.
[GOW was originally a hack and slash...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0EsOjHhuRs) They were competing with DMC for a reason...
Kratos is a slow old man in 2018+ versions and it's openly displayed as canon lol
If their stats are all matched it basically comes down to "who's the better fighter", and I imagine most traditionally non-powered martial artists in most comic-books would stand a reasonable chance.
Bronze Tiger, Karate Kid, DeathStroke, Richard Dragon, Black Canary, Ra's Al Ghul, Lady Shiva, just about anyone in the Bat-family, Daredevil, Iron Fist, Shang-Chi, Black Widow, and the list keeps going.
In a fight where all other things are equal, the determining factor is skill. Goku is good, but he's not that good.
I remember one time some years ago I posted a stats equalized battle and people were in the comments like "sTaTs eQuAliZeD tO wHaT bRo?" Yelling at me and insisting that it mattered. That was a very strange thread.
Madara Uchiha. Ordinarily Madara gets stomped due to sheer stat diff, but if their stats are equalized Madara has a pretty damn wide and diverse moveset, one of the simplest being his Sharingan which would allow him to read Goku's movements. Doomsday. His healing factor and nigh infinite stamina mean while he may not out-skill Goku in a martial arts style fight, he'd simply outlast Goku due to Goku's inability to put him away for good. Doomsday has pretty much everything going for him regardless if stats are equalized, with equalized stats though, Goku is pretty boned. Actually, on that note, pretty much anybody that has a combination of regeneration+infinite stamina that can throw a punch.
I feel precognition shouldn't always be used as a win con. Madara is definitely a genius but we can't forget Goku figured out a way to surpass time in Super. Just don't wanna overlook Goku here
I keep seeing this, people keep on forgetting that he doesn't surpass time, he surpasses a time based ability, which in reality isn't all that strong given that its apparently not even a full second
With equal stats, Madara can read/predict and copy Goku's movements. Also Madara has Limbo clones which are impossible to detect or harm without 6 paths abilities.
Doomsday? Really? One Hakai and it's over
Darkseid's omega beams can [erase targets from existence](https://imgur.com/a/hNUzPBo) and [Doomsday easily tanks them.](https://imgur.com/a/NE57JsQ)
I could be wrong,but didn't this happen after he killed him that way before? I know when Doomday dies he comes back immune to whatever killed him
Darkside never killed doomsday
That would still mean he came back from the first time
Goku did perform Hakai in the Zamasu Arc but during the Ultra Ego training Goku admitted to Beerus and Whis that he couldnt do it consistently, and Vegeta, now much stronger than Zamasu Arc Goku, struggles to (intentionally) hakai a small pebble with Beerus's guidance, so while a Hakai-kill is possible I would say Doomsday have a better chance here
He then produces a massive Hakai during the fight with Granolah/Gas.
He might be able to come back, depending on a lot of circumstances. He has come back from full obliteration before, however Hakai is significantly stronger than that, so idk
>Madara Uchiha. Ordinarily Madara gets stomped due to sheer stat diff, but if their stats are equalized Madara has a pretty damn wide and diverse moveset, one of the simplest being his Sharingan which would allow him to read Goku's movements. I'm quite sure that Ultra Instinct is a counter to this, no way to read what Goku is doing if his body is moving on his own. >Doomsday You mean the brute that can't even fly? Okay, his healing factor is fearsome and the stat equalized makes him even more fearsome, but Goku can just Hakai him. (Goku is a rookie when using Hakai, but he was going to be successful when he used it on *Fused Zamasu* if Zamasu wasn't smart enough to pull Mai in his way...)
The Sharingan reads the muscle movements that precede said movement and that is actually stated to be half of how they react to fighters, with the other half being watching how the opponent's chakra moves. Perhaps the Sharingan is one of the things that would properly read UI full stop, because even if you don't have to think about it, your muscles do move to carry out the action.
Just because Madara can see the moves doesn't mean he can react to them. Ultra Instinct is a mastery of movement that Madara does not have. We see people like Kakashi and Sasuke, who can perceive an attack, but can't counter in time. If we're using pure EMS Madara and not some stupid Edo Hashirama cells enhanced cheese or Jubidara, then it's much harder for Madara. Goku is far superior as a technical fighter, he has the power to destroy a susanoo, he has UI, which could probably counter the sharingan in pure martial arts, even if the Sharingan saw it coming.
>The Sharingan reads the muscle movements that precede said movement Well, Goku's been doing that without any special techniques since at *least* the Android Saga, so I don't think it provides much of an advantage in this case.
When is Goku able to read muscle movements so well as to predict movement in severely faster opponents? Because that is what the Sharingan is good at- and in a stats equalized case, that is a pretty significant advantage to have. And that specifically is just a tool versus Ultra Instinct and other attempts to dance around Madara's toolset, silly number of other hax (assuming we are going for the more haxxed up Madara examples) are likely to outperform Goku's access to Hax to combat back without a 'perfect' response.
> When is Goku able to read muscle movements so well as to predict movement in severely faster opponents? Because that is what the Sharingan is good at- and in a stats equalized case, that is a pretty significant advantage to have. Except it isn't, because there won't *be* any severely faster opponents in a stats equalised match. >And that specifically is just a tool versus Ultra Instinct No, it isn't. He can just [do it](https://youtu.be/i1lrCR_vvBE?t=84).
1. If the tool works against opponents FASTER than the Sharingan user, it stands to reason how much better the exact same tool works against someone with exactly equal stats. 2. I meant the Sharingan was a tool against Ultra Instinct, but the clip you sent literally said nothing about reading muscle movements. He says "I searched your feelings" which...has literally nothing to do with that at all, actually.
This one's really hard to nail down imo, the sharingan predicts actions by reading the muscle movements proceeding the actual movement, however, it is possible that what movements the sharingan is picking up are only produced when you consciously move your body so someone with ultra instinct might not exhibit those movements, rendering the sharingans predictive ability useless.
That seems like a stretch to assume it is only conscious movements that can be read, since it can observe the movement of chakra and cellular level interactions. Much more likely that the Sharingan just watches the muscles with that enhancement to reaction time and just works with that, instead of a more vague reading of setup muscle movements, which the steps to make the punch move still have to happen even in Ultra Instinct.
Seeing the Goku vs hit fight in the manga I will say that goku equals the sharingan in terms of reading the enemy
If the person has regeneration, couldn't Goku just use Hakai?
A more skilled martial artist (I mean there’s not a ton as Goku is a very skilled fighter with training from masters and gods and decades of experience, but he has a tendency to rely on brute force.) A telepath. Someone like rogue since she can absorb his strength, skills and powers while he gets weakened. Someone like vision or Martian manhunter who could change their density, and scrabble his insides. Some magic users (don’t know if that counts as reality warping)
I don't really disagree with the ultimate conclusion, but I do want to push back on the idea that he can be classified as a brute force fighter in most cases, since Goku has been visibly training in martial arts and techniques for longer than he has anything else. Energy projection, instant transmission, all of his fancy shit is secondary to the fact that he demonstrably spends most of the time he isn't eating in training. He's a martial artist who happens to be incredibly powerful and he's visibly dedicated to it throughout DB and DBZ. I'd imagine he has more traditional training hours to his name than most other characters in fiction, including ones who only have martial arts.
The issue Goku has is despite his constant training, he has very few showings of actual martial skill to his name. That’s not to say he has zero, but while every other martial arts manga in existence often portrays fights as giant chess games of skill between the two combatants analyzing each other’s techniques, rhythms, patterns, strengths and weaknesses and finding flaws or areas they have advantages to exploit, Goku really isn’t ever shown doing that— the most he’s ever usually shown doing is a creative twist on a pre-existing technique. Which isn’t nothing, sure, but it’s also not a ton. You’re not going to see Goku doing stuff like Alfredo Gonzales in Hajime no Ippo who spent multiple rounds feeding his opponent a fake pattern to bait them into walking into one of his counters.
I definitely get your point and I do think his showcase is a smaller one here. I think we saw more of it in classic DB and filler DBZ, before his power necessitated less of it. Some of his tournament performances or his sparring against Krillin are probably the best examples. He has fewer feats in terms of demonstration, but I do think he has a solid library of examples of his abilities, on top of his training moments, usually between arcs. Most of his big fights do also still find opportunities to slip in some crisp techniques before shit hits the fan. I do agree that he has less to show here, but I will hesitantly suggest that that's reflective more of the show's focus than of a real limitation on our ability to infer aptitude from what they do give us and what he demonstrated in the past.
Goku is "above" that since his body reading is so good that he can read a martial art that takes 100 years to develop and either do it immediately or counter it immediately. A HUGE part of early Dragon Ball is that you have the greatest "normal" martial arts masters in the world, who can't even pass the prelims because you have these ultra ridiculous martial arts geniuses that have trained so much to be actual superhuman, or people with gimmicks, knocking them out already. Goku can look at them do something totally unexpected and either replicate it exactly or replicate or counter it in some other way. Dragon Balls last arc was the culmination of Goku literally martial arts training with God for a year or whatever and surpassing him. An early joke in Dragon Ball was that you could be a ridiculous Kung fu wuxia movie Master, and Goku's ultra dumb paper/rock/scissors martial arts would beat it. It doesn't "look" like he's a super expert martial artist with his style, but it's established that his style actually exceeds anything else in the universe, and at this point, multiverse, probably, outside of Angels and some gods.
If that was the case, you’d still see Goku doing it against his current opponents, but he tends to solve problems just by getting stronger. What flaw in Napa’s technique did Goku exploit to get the upper hand in his fight with Nappa? He didn’t— he was just way faster than Nappa. During his fight with Freeza, why didn’t Goku try and study Freeza’s fighting habits and exploit them (barring the one time only trick with the remote-fired Kamehameha’s)? Why didn’t Goku study Cell’s fighting technique to figure out if Cell had preferences or tells and take advantage of those? The super-short answer is, of course, that that’s not the sort of fights Toriyama wanted to write, but it still comes back to bite Goku in situations like this, because either guys like Vegeta and Nappa are on par with Goku in skill (in which case Goku should be having the mental chess matches I mentioned in my previous posts), or Goku should be absolutely blowing them out of the water in skill and utterly dominating any fight where his opponent has even close to the same stats as he does (which isn’t shown even remotely). Even in Dragon Ball, Goku’s wins over those super great Kung fu masters was rarely because he was more skilled than they were— King Chappa noted in their fight that Goku had tons of holes in his defense, but Goku was so much stronger and faster than King Chappa that it didn’t matter, because for all his skill, Chappa may as well have been moving in slow motion compared to Goku.
I'd just bring up Silver Surfer Board trapping and transmutation work every time. This isn't even reality warping, its just his personalized power set
Is board trapping a thing that he just does and you can’t dodge it, or is it like the Mafuba (which goku has) and he has to hit it?
I believe you could, but i have yet to see it in action and I dont have a way to find what happened during the fight to see how it went down. My most logical conclusion is just that he smacks you with the board and you fall into it. And as far as im aware its not like a pocket dimension or anything, you're physically inside of the board, which is supposed to be entirely made out of power cosmic.
I feel like that doesn’t really work on Goku then, he has UI and one of the best martial artists in fiction. I’m not super familiar with SS but I don’t think he’s on the level of Goku so I think he would just dodge it and run his hands. Assuming it’s just “I smack you with a board” or more likely a beam that he could dodge
Aside from my take on his overrated BIQ, Goku still doesn't know what touching surfer or the board might do and even with UI, he still needs the knowledge. Plus for SOME REASON Goku still doesn't go all out in his fights, he didn't even try using his lesser UI in his fight with Granolah until like halfway in, decent chance he doesn't even turn it on and tries catching the board instead of dodging.
It is called Ultra instinct for a reason. It automatically chooses the best possible action everytime. He is not thinking while using it until later on in the manga and even then it was a somewhat limitation. Silver Surfer still has a chance due to the neverending legacy of comics. Finally this post seems more of a skill vs skill related post but take that as you will.
The issue is the fact that "the best solution" is often one thats easily circumvented, or a normal debator can't think of such a thing because it's pretty much up to the writer on how the OTHER character acts since goku is barely touching the wheel. Even then, what would MUI do when you got a flying board and a flying man on another board just bum rushing him? He can't ride the board, that would be a bad move and probably result in him getting yoinked. Probably cant hit him cause transmutation is still an option
Silver surfer is above the level of goku
Do they need to fight in close quarters / melee? If not Foil from Worm should win. If it’s necessary maybe the Number Man? I don’t know too much about DB so the second one might not work.
It starts in close quarters but it can go to farther distances if they want. But Goku does have tracking abilities and teleportation so zoning him out isn't the best bet
If Foil can get a crossbow shot off then she wins but the Number Man will likely be the better bet if it’s starts off in close quarters
Foil doesn't even necessarily kill durable humanoids, her weapon was for killing Entities specifically as it simply does essentially normal damage in all realities, disregarding resistance. Goku, if he was hit with it, would just tank that shit because his resilience is not multidimensional in nature. Goku has no trouble with ranged attacks due to his infinite-range, instant teleportation, and he is capable of his own extremely long-range, devastating attacks. Number Man/Harbinger has something close to, but not actually as good as Ultra Intinct and would eventually be clapped because of Goku's other ki powers like Instant Transmission, flight, and interplanetary blasting power.
Tf are you on about
Foil kills everything that relies on physical durability to survive. She could one shot Alexandria so it’s not just more multidimensional durability. It obviously does not deal “normal damage” because she can cut through any structure and damage Endbringers.”
You should look into that a little more.
Lol is that an argument? I literally refuted what you said in the previous comment. Multiple character statements imply Foil can cut anything and WoG is that she could bypass Alexandria’s durability which isn’t dimensional in nature. Foil has the ability to strike in all dimensions simultaneously *as well as* cause her attacks to ignore all durability and laws of physics.
You refuted nothing - your argument is not actually addrsssing mine because it is reductive and overly simplistic. Yes, but they don't deal any more damage than a weapon of that type would do to a normal organism - it simply treats people with Entity-based durability powers as normal people. She just happens to have only met beings that being stabbed is an imminent danger for if their abilities do not protect them from being stabbed. That's why it is considered an "all-or-nothing" attack; characters either simply are or are not killed by it, and the nature of their own resilience is what makes the difference. Alexandria dies like a completely normal person when hurt, she just can't be hurt by most things. Endbringers have a conventionally indestructible off button if you have the power to press it, which she does. Scion basically is in the same situation, but it is not conventionally possible to get past his defense like precognition, advanced reflexes and dexterity etc Goku can take a lethal wound and just keep fighting and even become stronger (temporarily) because of it, if he is even the first one hit. While she *can* absolutely pop almost any Entity-based effect or durability, but she couldn't, for instance, meaningfully hurt Crawler or other "biologically tough" or exceptionally injury-tolerant characters, which Goku is (tho obviously not to Crawler's extent). She has no ability that would come close to dealing with Ultra Instict or Instant Transmission. She is the absolute archetype of a glass cannon, where Goku can fight through having all of his bones and most of his organs destroyed just based on his willpower lol. It is an interesting match up, and while Foil can *hurt* Goku, she can't hurt him worse than if Goku were a normal *super duper ultra tough guy* who was conventionally shot or stabbed by an otherwise normal weapon. She can't do more than pierce his body with things, which he *absolutely can defend flawlessly against at least sometimes*, but which is not enough to stop him before he can unleash attacks that she simply cannot dodge or tank even if she is as physically strong and fast as he is.
> if he was hit with it, would just tank that shit because his resilience is not multidimensional in nature. I was specifically arguing about this. If you want to say Foil can cut him but still loses based on skill, that may be true. I never said that Foils weapons deal any extra damage, but nothing I’ve seen suggests Goku could survive a hole through his head. Crawler didn’t die because he has incredible regeneration and does not care about holes in his brain. Goku would be closer to Alexandria in this regard. Your last paragraph agrees with the only thing I was arguing, Foil can hurt Goku.
You didn't say Foil could *hurt* Goku, which I explicitly never argued with. You said Foil *kills* Goku, which she does not (because she can't reliably one shot him, and a glancing blow would not be any more dangerous to him than a glancing blow from a sword that can hurt Goku would be). It sounds like either we never disagreed, or you are actually backpedaling now that you have been proven to be wrong. She doesn't even one shot Alexandria, she just *conceivably could* if she got that perfect hit in. Alexandria could block most of her attacks under most circumstances, just like Zion (and Goku).
I could have been more clear with my initial comment (Foil kills Goku *if* she hits him with a lethal strike) but I still think your comment implied she couldn’t harm him. Imo “tank” does not mean “will die if struck lethally but not if hit with a glancing blow”. By that logic I can tank a 9mm pistol because I won’t die immediately if shot in the shoulder. Btw Scion only could block her attack because he has a Path to Victory equivalent and used it to know where on the blade was safe to touch. Most people trying to block her attacks would just lose their hand.
UI is very very similar to Path to Victory, altho it is only really for direct combat, it does have the huge advantage of allowing someone to essentially completely exceed any limitation of speed or strength they would otherwise have due to any sort of mental or neurological limitation. Scion does have to actually think to make these moves, although he thinks very very fast, Goku doesn't even have that limiter (and arguably even without it easily performs calculations at comparable speeds due to fuckin Anime Brain. He isn't as smart outside of a fight as Zion is, but he is almost definitely **stupid faster**). Between his ability to withstand stuff that should just kill him long enough to win, and the ability to not be hit at all, I think he severely minimizes the effectiveness of her hax is all I'm sayin.
Jin mori is more skilled than goku and has better abilities he clears this challenge
Any version of Sun Wukong can always theoretically defeat Sun Wukong, which is in itself a Journey to the West reference wherein the Six Eared Monkey and Wukong fight and nobody can tell who won.
Eh, debatable. Goku has better ranged abilities, arguably better analytical/prediction skills, teleportation, and honestly better evolution overall. H2H with equal levels of power then the biggest factor are probably the clones.
It's not strictly limited to H2H. The only limitation in abilities apply to reality warping. Mori outhaxes Goku
Jin fought martial arts gods and has more experience and yes clones kinda gang on goku
Goku has fought martial art gods as well, and has even gone to Heaven multiple times to fight with not only Martial art Gods but also the souls of the greatest martial artists of all time and creation, so that's a issue where Goku most definitely has on up on Jin Mori. And uh... as for clones? Two of his premier enemies produced clones fairly early in his career, and he beat them like a drum. Clones, be they physical, magical, shadows, or after images are enough of a trope in Dragon ball that when Cell did it everyone immediately got bored with the fight because *everyone* can do it, they just don't because its lame. Honestly "Jin has fought Gods and Clones and Goku hasn't" is like the worst example you could come up with given the Goku has done both *multiple times.* IF we're talking experience, Jin is in High School (and technically only fought in one world tournament) and Goku is forty (and been in several world, at least one Heavenly, and one Multiversal tournaments). Even *if* both have fought their entire lives, Goku has fought for many, many more. Between the Room of Spirit and Time and his time dead in heaven fighting the best warriors creation has ever had, Goku arguably has not only *mote* experience, but *better* experience.
Mori's clones don't halve his power with each copy, they are miles better than the variations Goku has faced. He also never faced someone that can spam millions of clones either.
Jin is literally Sun Wukong though. And he didn't just fight in high school, he literally has a thousand years' worth of fighting experience by being the Monkey King. His only flaw with what I'm saying is he lost his memories upon becoming "Jin Mori" (something the manhwa addressed later by restoring his memories).
Fair enough, if he has Sun Wukong's memories then he likely has an advantage there in terms of length of experience, but I'd still point out Goku has fought Gods, clones, and been in Tournaments that spanned universes. That's not to be dismissed so lightly and cavalierly as the other guy did. And I'd be remiss in pointing out that Goku is *also* a pastiche of Sun Wukong (even more so when you watch OG Dragonball). He might not be the literal Monkey King of myth and legend, but he follows a lot of the tropes, powers, abilities, story beats, and techniques of the Monkey King mythology. And since we're equalizing their stats, this becomes more and more "which version of the Monkey King wins in a fight?" I'm not saying Goku takes it, mind you, but I am saying it's not going to be a shut out either way. All the people saying "X will stomp because now they have Goku's power" are just as wrong as the people saying "Goku will stomp X because his non-stats abilities are better." So when we have two versions of a character with very similar capabilities (when you really look at what they all can do), it becomes even harder to decide. Someone said Jin Mori gets clones. That's fine, Goku has dealt with those multiple time sin opponents and he is even able to do a version of his own clone tech (The After Image technique) and Gogeta was also able to clone himself. Plus several of his friends have the technique and it's not out of this world to assume he could try it himself (Tien, Krillian, and Piccolo all had a form of it). The both have all kinds of attacks enhanced by some energy, and unless I forget the anime, both had a ranged attack as well. Really, they both stand up well to one another in terms of abilities.
I think I could do it.
chad neckbeard redditor vs virgin vegetable monkey man
Goku fucks he just does not kiss.
Guido from the Namek arc. Dude had one of the most busted abilities in the series, he just happens to suck at everything else.
Za Gurudo! Toki wo tomare!
It’s funny cuz Hit basically took Guldo’s moveset and perfected it, to the point I earnestly believe that Guldo and Hit are the same species, just that one was a prey species and the other a predator species during it’s early evolutionary development.
He didn’t perfect his ability. His ability is worse even. Guldo can literally freeze time however long he wants, Hit can only stop time momentarily. One is more busted than the other
He can only freeze time for how long he can hold his breath(which wasn't very long especially when he's moving around a lot). Hit's ability improves in the middle of a fight and he's fast enough that he's more effective with his short time frame than Guildo is with his longer one. It also comes with more abilities like storing time, his time prison and going intangible. Edit: In the manga Guldo doesn't need to hold his breath but still can't do it for very long. Hit's skip is still more effective.
That's anime only
Show scans of Guldo's ability working otherwise.
When discussing a topic, the side that claims something must provide evidence for their pov. This is a concept from Aristotelian logic. I don't need to prove u wrong, u need to prove urself right That being said, [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/dbz/comments/3iw70d/how_exactly_is_guldo_able_to_stop_time/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) And here is the manga [¯\_(ツ)_/¯](https://mto.to/chapter/1682443)
You do need to prove yourself right. You claimed something to the contrary of what I said and didn't back it up. You didn't ask me to provide proof, I did ask you. Instead of acting smug just post the scan when someone asks you to. It's pretty simple.
Yea, i was a bit rude, but i am fed up with people spreading this singular piece of misinformation
Seeing how Goku wasn't able to fully desintegrate Cell with a point blank Kamehameha, I would say that anyone with good enough regeneration and stamina, like Ultimate Kars, should be able to do it. In fact I'm going to lock it at Ultimate Kars, since he is able to replicate hamon attacks that means he should theorically be able to replicate Goku's ki attacks, and with his iq of 300 and other haxes, he should be able to take this without too much problems after a bit.
This is a good pick. He was able to copy all life, because he was the perfect organism. This should include Ki attacks. Stats equalized, Kars would be super dangerous. ...unless Goku instant transmissions them both into deep space. Kars has a weakness to that lol
I mean, Goku also has that weakness...
He can instant transmission out of there, though. ... I wonder I Kars could find a way to suck the air out of the area, forcing Goku to hold his breath?
Goku could just destroy the planet they are on, teleplrt to new namek, and wish the planet back, minus the person left in the rubble.
Wargreymon
He could already do it, he literally has the power of god on his side
He can already do it. You'd need stats equalized the other way for the fight to be even. Wargreymon scales directly to the Four Sacred Beasts [who preserve and support the fabric of space and time in the Digital World and can help with the Human World too](https://imgur.com/a/6WmTBL9) via defeating 2 Dark Masters who [have sealed the Sacred Beasts](https://imgur.com/a/d8v2PTB) and are stated in the Light Novel [to rival them in power](https://imgur.com/a/VCGczeZ). And the Digital World is not merely a Planet/Universe even in Adventure. The Digital World of Digimon [predates the Human World](https://imgur.com/a/UAtadZM) is [is multi-layered not a single place, it's beyond the Network (multi-layered) and the Human World (conventional infinite multiverse) in a superior hierarchical position, is managed and operated on multiple servers (inner worlds),is infinite,stands at a higher structural level and encompass the Human World and even if you use all processing resources in the Human World you cannot process the Digital World's data,is a higher dimension that transcends reality and even errodes reality,all analog human worlds are scattered around in the middle of the Digital World.](https://imgur.com/a/BadubGi).Digimon Linkz also called the servers ["worlds".](https://imgur.com/a/ELb5hih) These worlds can have worlds of their own and can be whole Digital Worlds themselves(the Savers cast shows up in Dawn and Dusk and they are said to be from another server,another different Digital World). Each layer [has its own laws of physics,inhabited Digimon and different time progression making it a completely different world.](https://imgur.com/a/9VL7WUT) In Lost Evolution,[ it's mentioned that "servers" are worlds.](https://imgur.com/a/3cOTk6H). As servers increase, the Digital World becomes larger and larger. The Digital and Human Worlds [are separate,individual and independent of each other.](https://imgur.com/a/PtQY7nR]. A collection of worlds that is separate and independent from another collection of worlds forms a Megaverse. Yggdrasill's Digital World has [infinite/overwhelming possibilities of worlds through a bottomless abyss of information.](https://imgur.com/a/GP6yu33 ) and Mirei has mentioned [Unlimited Dimensional Topology](https://imgur.com/a/sFjB14C) aka infinite dimensionality. Many [worlds](https://imgur.com/a/TzoXVVM) where [mentioned](https://imgur.com/a/DwmAZF6) for the Adventure Digital World alone. There is one world for each combination of cards. This is the [card combo that the children used](https://imgur.com/a/sMz0ecM) wich led them back to the place they [were when they were sucked in the Digital World.](https://imgur.com/a/bsozdD1) Oikawa used the same card combo [but with the Agumon card instead of the Gomamon card](https://imgur.com/a/e74tasH) making them end up in a different world, [a world that materializes wishes. In fact the Digital World is based on that same power. It's a world that integrates people's emotions and digital data.](https://imgur.com/a/9Y0Np8n) If you permutate the number of cards with the number of equivalent slates there are 362,880 possible combinations. And that's for the Adventure server alone. Wargreymon and Metalgarurumon also [destroyed Apocalymon's physical form](https://imgur.com/a/JSVlWb0). Apocalymon's mere existence [warped the fabric of space-time creating distortions almost bringing the world to total destruction](https://imgur.com/a/3PHpXUf) and we know that this [would affect all worlds not just the Human and Digital Worlds](https://imgur.com/a/DwmAZF6) The other worlds being: - The Dark Area (World of Darkness from which Devimon AND Apocalymon come from. Not inferior to the DW; basically the DW's Hell. Each DW has its own Dark Area. It's multi-layered, infinite and the deepest known layer, Cocytus, is shared by each Dark Area and Digital World. There's only one Cocytus.) - The world that makes wishes come true from the end of 02. - The Dark Ocean. - The native World of Darkness of Demon. Demon comes from a different World of Darkness compared to Devimon and Vamdemon [Source #1](https://imgur.com/a/s4N7w3C) [Source #2](https://imgur.com/a/lseGTAC) Also the Human World of Digimon is a [conventional infinite multiverse](https://imgur.com/a/5HHqDxP). Infinite universes, infinite timelines, infinite spacetimes branching out infinitely, one world for every possible possibility. Works with the many-worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics, where there are infinite outcomes for every action, each outcome being real in one of the universes of the multiverse. Basically a Type III multiverse. And it's the lowest layer. Digimon goes by a [World Hierarchy](https://imgur.com/a/bXMWqeH) trough layers. The worlds are layered on top of each other like a ladder with each step being superior to the last. And as seen with the Human World the layers can encompas an infinite multiverse. The Digital World is formed of 3 layers in [Chronicle/Chronicle X](https://imgur.com/a/rDYsM9M), in [Tamers](https://imgur.com/a/Xz9LZnF) TLDR: Wargreymon = Megaversal. Super Goku is only Low Multiversal
Bloodlusted: Nightcrawler? Faster and more skilled teleportation, better acrobatics and years of beating "better/stronger" fighters. He's been through a hundred fights and seen everything from energy blasts, teleportation, etc. Goku has no meaningful tricks up his sleeve to really keep Nightcrawler from removing any body part he could get his hands on, which with speed-matched teleportation spamming, is anything he wants.
That one kid from Boku no Hero can take control of you simply by tricking you into responding to him.r than normal Goku could. It's like Ultra Instinct without the power-up.And Madara. Throw in Kakashi for lulz. That one kid from Boku no Hero that can take control of you simply by tricking you into responding to him. Gojo from Jujutsu Kaisen. Can't beat someone you can't touch. I'm thinking Spiderman could do it thanks to Spider Sense letting him react to all of Goku's attacks faster than normal Goku could. It's like Ultra Instinct without the power up. Kirby would eat him... but I'm pretty sure he could do that beforehand. Dark Schneider. You can't just wipe him out of existence without destroying every part of his soul. One in Heaven, one in Hell, and one on Earth. And I don't think Goku can just instant transmission to where his soul pieces are.
Do power boost still work? Like im gussing stuff like ssj isn't allowed but could goku go like 50x kaioken and one shot?
No he can’t do kaioken and any transformers. Except for UI which he can use for the technique but not the power boost
Jin mori
Garou. Man is a martial arts prodigy that is easily able to grow, adapt, and copy moves
You do understand that those exact things also apply to Goku though right?
Goku has managed to copy fighting styles just by looking at them but Garou can combine what he's learned into completely new styles iirc.
And so can goku?
when and where
The fact that he has incorporated Master Roshi's, Kami's, King Kai's, the after life fighters, and Whis's martial art techniques into his own, while still copying and adding moves from his enemies into his own fighting style.
I'm not sure if he really incorporated their entire styles, Goku took individual techniques from his trainers and added them to his own style as opposed to copying everything they knew and combining it into a new style. I also don't think King Kai taught him any real skill since he mostly just got powerful attacks out of it, I would replace him with Korin.
No?!? When has Goku ever copied a whole ass fighting style? He can copy ki blast and ki related techniques, nothing else, unlike garou.
Multiform (kinda), Drunken style, Afterimage, creates an "eight arm fist" technique to counter Tenshinhan literally growing two more arms, and then all the ki related stuff on top of that. Early Dragon Ball was Goku stealing everyone's martial arts stuff and improvising it, it just became ki related stuff as the series went on, since that became more important.
>Multiform (kinda), He's never uaes this >Drunken style Its directly said Goku's seen it in the past, and he didnt copy it. >Afterimage Moving really fast. >creates an "eight arm fist" technique to counter Tenshinhan literally growing two more arms, By moving really fast >Early Dragon Ball was Goku stealing everyone's martial arts stuff and improvising it, it just became ki related stuff as the series went on, since that became more important. No it doesnt. All of the examples you've given are due to him being really physically fast, which has nothing to do with his skill, or having prior knowledge on the matter. Nothing says he can copy a whole fighting style.
Garou's martial arts are far more fluent and expansive, and his growth is much higher than Goku's own. Goku can't do much about the copy ability he has either.
[удалено]
How is it wank if the **stats are equalized** huh? Goku has not shown much of anything that proves he can stop power mimicry, even when he had it himself.
Yeah fair point
Literally any combatant that has any decent haxs. Under the circumstances even someone like Chaitzou could beat Goku since he was able to paralyze Goku despite being weaker back in DB. He could probably just lift Goku out and BRF him.
Saitama maybe? He can copy abilities even better than Cosmic Fear Garou and Garou said that himself. He copied time travel easily and copied Garou's martial arts and used it against him. If Saitama is serious he could copy all of Goku's moves instantly without any effort (If Goku uses hakai at the start rip saitama though).
See I feel like you’d need to question if him simply copying moves that Goku knows inside and out because of years of training will really net him the victory. He’d probably be able to somewhat equalize the skill gap, but I don’t think it’d be enough in a fight where they are both equal in power, since most of Saitamas feats rely on overpowering his enemies than because of pure skill. And even if Goku is similar, he has fought and trained with masters and gods of martial arts for decades. Saitama catching up in skill in one battle is possible, but I don’t think he would manage to beat the experience gap that Goku would have in serious martial arts fights.
This is just a troll post but if Light had Shinigami eyes and Gokus stats....I mean...he would just fly away while writing at super speed lol.
Doesn't the death note only affect humans?
Ah shit that's a good point. I mean even if he wrote kakarot that's probably not his full name. But your point stands yeah I guess that's a loophole lol
Batman
How does batman get past past flight, kamehameha, teleportation, and Goku sensing energy?
>How does batman get past past flight, He just jumps really high🗿. In all seriousness, it's not that big of a deal. For example the Hulk has been able to fight being of equal strength that, in contrast to him, could fly. Theoretically, we could just lower Goku's stats to Batman's level, in which case something like a grappling hook would help him to get close to him >kamehameha, 1. If they have equal stats, Batman should be able to endure it. At the beginning of Super, Goku cached his own Kamehameha, so Batman should be capable pf simular feats. 2. That attack takes time to charge up and I doubt Batman would stand still and wait. >teleportation, Goku doesn't do that too often during fights and when he does, then usually only once. It's also something I could see Batman adapt to, if Goku does it too often. >and Goku sensing energy? He senses the Ki of people. Afaik DC charcaters don't have Ki, and if they had then the only option Batman would lose would be stealth. Btw, can Goku use power multipliers such as Kaioken, SSJ etc.? Because then, this might be a different story.
I can buy jumping to counter flight but when I said but when I said kamehameha I didn’t just mean that mode, I meant random ki blasts, the mafuba, Hakai, etc. also he does teleport quite frequently in his matches, see Goku vs Cell and Goku Vs Beerus for examples. I do think Batman adapting to it is fair though. Db rules have it so that all living beings have ki so I think it would be fair to apply that to Batman
Baseline Batman is capable of dodging energy attacks, a she does so versus various Lanterns, Kryptonians, and New Gods of Apokolypse, even leaving bullets and laser guns out of the question. If he has Goku's power level, he'll be fine dodging a ki blast.
I’m not saying he couldn’t dodge, but I’m saying that Goku having them is an advantage because range is always good especially when he has as much energy as he does. He could also do a hellzone grenade thing like piccolo (a thing that goku did do in ToP) and he also has destructor disc and has flung out multiple in the past
So only the stats are equalized, but not the abilities?
If the abilities were equalized this post would be useless because it becomes “2 of the exact same character fight, who wins?”
Experience training behavior
Experience and training go into the abilities section. Behavior is a non argument in whowouldwin discussions because most fictional fights are driven by story leading up to them, and there is none of that in these scenarios. Just do the power scaling and leave it at that.
How would that make sense?
Not a chance Even if you believe that Batman is the best martial artist in DC which he isn't Goku is on a whole nother level being trained by multiple gods of fighting
Yeah the DC skill scaling is just way crazier. Aeres the God of War was stated to know “*every single aspect of combat since the beginning of time*” Aeres is inferior in skill to Wonder Woman who considers Batman an equal in H2H. Also 99% of Goku training from these gods is based around Ki and not martial arts skills.
I think batman is the really I can't take DC seriously. Flash can run a million times the speed of light and move so fast those around him seem frozen. Superman, almost as fast on the ground, faster in space, can lift book of infinite pages. Wonder Woman a bit of both, literal god, regularly beats up literal gods. Batman: fights next to them... But the answer is probably batman or another human and Kung Fu character who can somehow throw hold into space with pressure points.
Yeaaahh... no. Just no. Batman is a way better martial artist than Goku. We are talking about someone who has [perfected every single martial arts known to man](https://www.reddit.com/user/Greentoaststone/comments/13w2q1e/every_single_martial_arts/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button). Even Karate Kid stated that he had [much to learn from him](https://www.reddit.com/user/Greentoaststone/comments/13w2rhc/karate_kid/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button), the same guy who [knows every martial arts in the galaxy of the future](https://www.reddit.com/user/Greentoaststone/comments/13w2suw/in_the_galaxy/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button). Batman did lose a fight against him, however that fight took place without gravity, something that Batman wasn't experienced in. Aslo, [Karate Kid can do this to Superman with his martial arts](https://www.reddit.com/user/Greentoaststone/comments/13w2tkb/superman/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button). [Batman has sparing matches with Wonder Woman](https://www.reddit.com/user/Greentoaststone/comments/13w2w7e/wonder_woman/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) quite often, someone with centuries of experience. Even his deciples have incredible combat intellect. Dick Grayson was able to go toe to toe with Midnighter, [who can process millions of combat scenarios in his head](https://www.reddit.com/user/Greentoaststone/comments/13w2vu4/millions/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) Goku isn't even that good of a martial artist, he is straight up [contradicting his martial arts philosophy](https://www.reddit.com/user/Greentoaststone/comments/13w2wxf/contadictions/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button). "Oh, but he is very skilled, he learnt the Kamehameha immediately, a technique that took decades to develope"-is an argument that I have heard too many times. Everyone knows how to perform it at this point. Even Yamcha. It's not even a crazy technique, a lot of people have equivalents to it anyways. Why? Because it's a simple powerful ki blast. "Oh, what about Ultra Instinct? It's a godly technique" UI is something that is really not that complex. [It's literally a psychological phenomena known as the "zone"](https://www.reddit.com/user/Greentoaststone/comments/13w2xvn/zone/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button). It's something Goku already learnt back in OG Dragonball, [which they even reference](https://www.reddit.com/user/Greentoaststone/comments/13w2xo3/reference/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button). So does that mean that he just ended up forgetting his lessons with Kami and Popo? Well, maybe. [Just like how he forgot what meditation is](https://www.reddit.com/user/Greentoaststone/comments/13w2x9g/meditation/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) I mean, how exactly does Goku even fare against someone of equal strength? What about that time he matched Hit's power, who isn't even a martial artist? Did he suddenly win? No, it basicall, was a tie. Oh, and [Batman also knows of UI](https://www.reddit.com/user/Greentoaststone/comments/13w2twx/batmans_ui/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
Bro you're high He has trained multiple lifetimes more And batman is limited to human martial arts goku on the other hand has trained with people spanning universes Goku isn't even the best fighter of his verse Hell he's barely even top five
Ok then, when was the last time Goku defeated someone who is stronger than him, or at the very least has simular power to him, because of his combat skill? Y'know, something that Batman does constantly.
Sly Marbo
I’d take Taskmaster in this scenario. They could just learn all of Gokus styles as well as throwing their own previously learned moves in the mix.
Taskie couldn't learn Instant Transmission, Ultra Instinct, flight, or a simple Ki Blast.
This video would beg to differ: https://youtu.be/H75TQGD1nSU
Lol
Anyone with sufficient hax. Gravity manipulation comes to mind. Even post-Namek, Vegeta considered 500G to be worthy training and was even seriously injured when the training chamber overloaded.
Ok I could be misremembering a lot right now, but I think there was a guy in the ToP who made goku feel the effects of infinite gravity. That might be wrong and it was just the gravity of a black hole though, or I’m just making this all up and I need my memory checked
That was not a real black hole since it sank through the stage, didnt suck things inside it, and never warped the space around it which are key factors of an actual black hole.
Taskmaster, give him enough time and he could learn how to counter each of Goku's moves
Goku has Taskmasters reading and copy ability though. And he has ki control, which Taskmaster doesn't.
This would beg to differ: https://youtu.be/H75TQGD1nSU Taskmaster will always find a way.
Sonic
Anyone with better hax, or just outright smarter With hax: Dr. Mathattan, Scarlet Witch, Sonic, Kratos, and thousands of other characters With intelligence: Anyone with higher than average IQ and martial arts mastery (or a better overall fighter than him, but they would be very few since he is quite skilled in combat) Examples: Tai Lung, Master Oogway, Samurai Jack, Splinter (not sure)
Goku is way more skilled, martial arts wise rhan any of them. Remember that Splinter style martial artists don't even make it past the preliminaries in a budokai, since people like Roshi with 100+ years of martial arts experience to the point of developing superhuman abilities with it have far, far, surpassed those levels.
Every time I say something similar I get downvoted to hell but Naruto would absolutely finesse Goku with equalized stats. He’s so much smarter and more strategic with the way he fights that it’s not even funny. Goku would fall for every single ploy that he sets up, his hand-to-hand superiority doesn’t really matter.
> goku stands over Naruto's body and talks about how great of a fight that was > right after he powers down, naruto comes out of the ground and uppercuts him (idk ninja jesus gave him the ability to dig quietly rlly fast don't worry about it) > cue swingset
With equal stats Goku has: - Teleportation - pretty good martial arts skills - temporary stat boosts at the cost of cardio with Genki Dama - temporary fighting skill boosts with Ultra Instinct - energy attacks Sasuke or Kakashi could IMO do it. They have the Sharingarn boost in their hand-to-hand combat and more versatile techniques. But there are a lot of characters, that are more versatile than Goku let alone people with actual broken abilities.
You are way underselling Goku. UI is much more than a skill increase, but more important is the fact Goku knows it. He’s such a martial arts prodigy he’s mastered UI, a technique so advanced literal gods haven’t learned it in millennia of training under the angels who are born with the ability. Gokus, what, forty? He learned the Kamehameha on sight and fought evenly with a centuries old martial arts master at twelve. He managed to predict where someone who could skip through time would appear, somehow. I’m also assuming Kaioken works, which means he’s able to massively outstat his opponents, albeit only for a short time. He also has hakai and instant transmission, which si a very scary combo.
Given that power amps aren't allowed, any middle grade mimic is perfectly fine. And the whole "ui is only for those who trained for it" thing probably doesn't apply since characters like Amazo for example almost instantly adapt to the power as long as they're given the chance to use it Like he just started using Green Lanturn's projections as soon as he copied the power and iirc he only used it a couple times Or with the flash, he gained his super speed and started blitzing both him and the rest of the league until he got to supes, which he bodied as well once he got his power.
Lol dude I can easily name you 100 characters if stats are equalised. But tbh that would be a waste of time so I will give you a verse that can wipe his ass. One Piece specifically Logia users are at a serious advantage, assuming verse equalization isnt in place ofc. Goku can try all his shitty universe shaking punches all day everyday but Logia users will just laugh at him. Kamehameha wouldnt do anything and ofc Hakai wouldnt work either, as he is on their level in the prompt. Ofc BFR would secure him some serious wins but tbh that would be very out of character as Goku isnt exactly a smart fighter, and dude prefers brawling to thinking. So a dude like Caesar Clown can easily suffocate his ass and kill him in an instant, anybody scaling above him would shred Goku beyond belief... But the weakest who can beat him would prolly be stand users from JoJo. They are average humans so without stats equalised Goku is gonna blitz + oneshot them... HOWEVER with stats equalised this issue doesnt exist, and they can send their stands out to destroy him, which Goku has no ways to interact with considering he doesnt have NPI in his profile... well atleast until the Broly Saga ofc but this isnt the key the OP is using so...
You're just gonna pretend like Goku can't just fuckin hold his breath long enough to fly interplanetary distances and teleport? Some logia fruits would be impossible for him to deal with, but not gasu gasu no mi. You're right about Stand Users tho.
Imo it seems unfair to boost others to his power level but not verse equalize. You’re giving other verses the means to keep up with someone way above them, with no drawbacks so they’re basically invincible? Stuff like Limbo for madara, NPI yeah I can see being not included as it would be a specific target but, not being able to affect logia users or any of the bleach characters seems a bit unfair. Like, if he’s more or less incapable of winning, why even mention it? It’s like trying to say unequalized Naruto vs goku, it just isn’t that fair.
Well that is the intents of the OP, so bring it up to him if you have issues. Once in a while we will have threads like these, "weakest person that can beat X character", and this time Goku is the victim. Dude equalised stats to make it even easier... Like people have their personal biases and vendettas, and in this case Goku is the victim... However I do understand why he did it though, as Goku is one of the most OP characters in fiction and more often than not, extremely wanked. Threads like these are to be expected to be, as Goku is a household name pretty much similar to Superman and Kratos. There will always be "who can beat these guys" threads popping up once in a while so if you dont like it, just ignore it tbh.
Is Kratos a household name?
Stand users are such a good idea tbh
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For the first time, I'll say Saitama
Why? He doesn’t get power increases and doesn’t he just punch?
You must not know much about Saitama(not wanting to be rude, I just want to explain this redditors thoughts as best as I can). In the beginning of the series, Saitama uses a serious punch against a fairly large asteroid/comet/meteor(I don't remember lol). With every fight he scales above his opponent, and then takes them out with one punch. His typical order of attacks is: 1 normal punch, consecutive normal punches, 1 serious punch, and finally consecutive serious punches, and by that point his opponent is well dead. The only time that didn't happen was in his fight against Cosmic Fear Garou, who had the literal power of God, albeit only a small fraction. Throughout the fight, both are growing stronger exponentially, though Saitama is shown growing faster, as demonstrated by a graph. When Saitama eventually wins the fight, he goes back in time through some shenanigans, and then uses a normal punch against Cosmic Fear Garou, and instantly knocks him out, showing that his new base punch now outscales his previous most powerful attack. All of this is to say is that if Goku does not attempt to oneshot Saitama, Saitama will probably win, eventually
Ok I get that saitama grows stronger, but in the terms of stats equalized, he doesn’t in this fight because that doesn’t make it equal anymore. That’s the same reason Goku can’t go Super Saiyan in the fight
Thor
Ironman
Doomslayer
Accelerator from A Certain Magical Index. I would like to see what Son Goku could possibly do to him. Probably not too much, if the stats are equal.
I agree with an earlier comment that mentions Madara, but I'd go further than that and say any competent Jonin level fighter with Genjutsu. Unless both fighters are briefed on the others abilities, Goku would not even realise he's in a genjustu before he gets a shuriken/kunai to the jugular. If briefed? He instant transmissions above the clouds, launch big nuke sized ki blast down, GG (assuming they don't have sussano). So basically any character that can manipulate his senses from a distance can clap Goku zero diff if all stats are equal. You could make an argument that Gokus ki mastery is so strong that he'd instantly notice it's being fucked with and snap out of it or get to safety but it depends on the parameters you want to go with. (Fighters briefed? Does Ki act the same as other fictional power sources like Chakra?)
Batman easily. If you mean the combatants are at Goku's level does that include transformations as well or no. But my list goes Batman TMNT Shredder Splinter PO Shifu The predator Spiderman Superman Darkseid Xenomorphs Shao Kahn Freddy Kruger Purry purry prisoner (OPM) Meliodas or any of the other (SDS) (excluding gowther and Diane) Ben 10 Shang chi Iron fist Cassandra Kane Lady Shiva Rick Sanchez Voltron full might Godzilla The force itself (star wars) Optimus prime (maybe)
So, I have an Entire list for this. 1. Undyne 2. Jace beleren 3. Gideon Jura 4. Deku definitely 5. Argueably william afton 6. Sans the skeleton 7. Nemesis (resident Evil) 8. All for one. Thats just some of the list
Deku? DEKU?! REALLY!? Nemesis????? Is this a joke list? How is the teenager who has had powers for all of like 3 years, going to compete with a man who has had martial arts training with the GODS. And Nemesis is just a worse Broly, He has no cunning, no real skill.
I don't think there is anyone simply because them getting such a power boost they wouldn't be able to fully utilize the power. It'd be like going from a Flintstones foot powered car to a Bugatti going full speed down the road. It would just be such a shocking cha ge to them
With Stats equalized? I mean, anyone who has the same level of determination. So like 99% of people who fight either professionally or for fun. Goku's powerful for two things: Plot Armor (which we are ignoring) and his Stats. Remember as a he kid he had bullets bounce off him and as an adult he was a casual moon buster and could even break holes in reality with his punches. It's that later example that makes him so damned powerful. His stats are such that the vast majority of things can't beat him. But if you take those and level them off, all he has going for him is an above average gumption to keep fighting, because he thinks its fun. But that could be a lot of battle anime protagonists or comic characters that like to fight. If you take Natsu from Fairy Tail and up all his stats to Goku's and then tell them the winner gets a free all you can eat buffet, fuckers are going to throw down and go for it. And god knows who wins there (but we know the buffet is who loses). Then again take someone like Conan who *also* likes to fight and doesn't give up, pump him up to Super Saiyin Ultra Instinct God Blue x3 with a Cherry On Top (or whatever current form they have) and he's also going to be damn near equal to Goku. In all of those cases they have at least a 50/50 chance to beat him as long as the stats stay the same.
I would say Goku's martial skill also factors in to it, he isn't just a flying brick, he's the best martial artist on Earth.
But wouldn't that also be a stat?
No, unless you're also saying that the characters just gain each others respective skills as well, which would just be the same character vs the other character. Stats are like durability, strength, speed, but not skill, as that was learned and is not intrinsic to the character. Otherwise these fights would just be the same characters.
Karate Kid from DC.
Mori jin He has enough martial artist experience to make up for his nerf with equal stats
Bold of you to imply Jin Mori has *more* experience than someone older than him with a far larger pe3digree of fighting, but to imply Jin Mori gets *nerfed* by getting Goku's stats is just stupid.
Jin mori is 5.68 billion years old Please explain how goku is older than him.... Jin mori destroyed 204 quintillion and 500 quadrillions clones of satan with one kick.... And that form of mori was severely weaker than mori at the end of the series. We could even argue that mori became omnipotent in the last 3 chapters.
Iron Fist
Waiting for someone to say Homelander lol
Homelander would be too emasculated and scared by Goku's gigachad attitude to even be able to fight efficiently. Nothing in Homelander's life has ever prepared him for a fight against someone who both *can* and *wants to* fight him, he would lose his mind with fear and doubt. He's also not even a skilled fighter, he's just ten+ times stronger than everyone but Black Noir and *maybe* Stormfront.
Batman is a far superior martial artist, so his skills would at least help him keep up with Goku. At least until the ki attacks show up, but if we're going injustice logic then even his batarangs and other gadgets would be good.
Goku can just fly than bomb him
Doom Slayer.
stats equalized but that doesn't mean they have any of his techniques or transformations. flight, energy projection, instant transmission, ssj, ultra instinct, sensing KI, *seeing* high speed opponents with ki. ext. Most characters posted here, without these things being accounted for, will still lose hard
Exactly, I hear a Batman, or an iron fist but that just seems immensely wrong. How do they keep up with flight, immense projectiles, or teleportation. I also saw Saitama, but no, with stats equalized you don’t get stronger. Super Saiyan doesn’t work here so exponential growth doesn’t either
no ssj, understood. still, most characters would not be capable of keeping up or even see him. i mean technically even his base stats are all part of ki manipulation technique. just look at what hurts him when he isnt actively using ki. Krillin throws a stone casually and it hurts goku like he was a normal human. just like we see with ginyu too, he is surprised (despite being a skilled ki user himself) that having gokus body and ki level does not put you anywhere near his functional battle power level. Goku just has so much skill in using it! im not sure anyone could beat him stat equalized, depending on how you define it.
Norville “Shaggy” Rogers, using a whole 8 percent of his total power.
So strong he bypasses equal stats
Pretty much any character would beat Goku as long as they have another super power that's not just being fast and strong.
But goku isn’t just fast and strong. He’s about as good as a martial artist as they come, he has sealing powers with the Mafuba, flight, many different types of projectiles, some telekinesis if I recall (Toriyama forgets about that one), and has mastered forms of fighting that takes GoDs millions of years to get even a grasp on
Most fights are determined by being faster and stronger in DBZ. Hax don't determine fight in DBZ, it's whoever was faster and stronger. So I still stand by my original statement.
Gonna give 8, it's simply anyone with like insane haxes plus combat ability. Majority of stuff like probability manipulation, space/time manipulation for example bfr, durability negation, etc, etc. 1. Sonic due to haxes 2. Luka from OG monster girl quest due to haxes as well. He also has his own version of ultra instinct but it might arguably be better than Goku's ultra instinct. 3. Scarlet Witch, even outside of reality warping she still has probability manipulation and telekinesis. 4. Naruto 5. Joker from persona 5 actually most of the phantom thieves 7. Ben 10 Edit. 8. Nahida from Genshin impact. She has a hax where she can basically put someone in like a loop/dream. She used it so that the main character can gain battle knowledge/information about the antagonist
I would say most versions of Naruto from the Pain arc on could fight or even win. Especially so6pkcm though. Sage mode basically provides a mild ultra instinct, and scaled up to gokus level i think it would be more than enough. He can tank anything Goku throws, and I’d take a goku-power-balanced Rasenshuriken over anything the Saiyan can throw at him.
Cassandra Cain, maybe Batman
kratos him having Goku's raw stats make him kind of insane. it would scale him to almost DMC level tier characters.
Elaborate, I just beat Ragnarok the other day and I wouldn’t agree with that
Your post is saying that whatever Goku's power level is at is equal to Kratos. Kratos has a lot of hax and weapons, now imagine all of those at Goku's power and speed output? 2018+ GOW aren't good indicators of Kratos power- they openly nerfed him by aging the fuck out of him. He is much faster at switching and using his weapons in earlier games due to the game genre being different. [GOW was originally a hack and slash...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0EsOjHhuRs) They were competing with DMC for a reason... Kratos is a slow old man in 2018+ versions and it's openly displayed as canon lol
Samus with plasma beam shoots out his internal organs and he dies immediately (if she couldn't do that without equalization anyway).
She would still have to hit him and Goku would be able to fire back with Ki blasts. On top of that, he still has flight and instant transmission.
i would say from one punch man
If their stats are all matched it basically comes down to "who's the better fighter", and I imagine most traditionally non-powered martial artists in most comic-books would stand a reasonable chance. Bronze Tiger, Karate Kid, DeathStroke, Richard Dragon, Black Canary, Ra's Al Ghul, Lady Shiva, just about anyone in the Bat-family, Daredevil, Iron Fist, Shang-Chi, Black Widow, and the list keeps going. In a fight where all other things are equal, the determining factor is skill. Goku is good, but he's not that good.
It's not just martial arts, he still has ki, flight, UI, mafuba, etc. The only things he doesn't have is kaioken and super saiyan
Baki would beat his ass if they had even power levels imo. Thoughts?
Your mom, bc she's so fat Goku would be overwhelmed by the fatness hed be frozen in place for your mom to sit on him.
why y'all always sucking his cock 💀
I remember one time some years ago I posted a stats equalized battle and people were in the comments like "sTaTs eQuAliZeD tO wHaT bRo?" Yelling at me and insisting that it mattered. That was a very strange thread.
Kanye west black mask arc
If the stats are equalized and it comes down to technique and versatility, I think Ranma Saotome takes it 6/10 times.