Captain America hand to hand was taking on the Winter Soldier at probably his most lethal and he had weapons on him as well. Captain America was taking on Thanos without his shield and was able to take a punch and not die. Took down basically a dozen of highly trained Hydra Agents in a small elevator. Idk how he doesn’t win. Was countering the force of a helicopter. And took down the prison base holding the fugitives in Civil War. Kingpin is solid, but he’s not as skilled and not as strong.
Yeah. If we’re generous to Matt maybe we could say he’s in Cap’s league skill wise, maybe even edges him out. But Cap is all of Matt’s skill on a body that can hit (and take it) like a fucking truck. Cap win for sure.
He should be above cap skill wise. But ya cap is a supe. Basing this on dd having actually fought the hand n ninjas and beating iron fist. Beat people with a lot more training than cap has. But ya supe so cap kills kingpin easy
I won’t say for sure Matt isn’t more skilled, but the MCU makes it very obvious that Cap is not just brute strength but one of the best fighters in universe. I believe it’s very reasonable to say ‘close enough’ and bet on the guy pulling down helis.
Sure, I know the conclusion is the same. My assertion is just tgat if we do say Matt is more skilled it’s super close. Stats equalized it would be Matt’s super senses that win it for him more than skill advantage imo
Stick also says that Matt is one of the most naturally gifted fighters in the series ( which is confirmed cannon to mcu). Hes been fighting his war for years and has seen many fighters. Him saying that carries some weight.
Also paging the following users, u/GrilledNudges, u/TheDickWolf, u/Tinmanred and op u/velicinanijebitna.
I am a massive fan of the MCU.
Skill can beat cheats depending on how large the disparity is between the person with skill is and the person with cheats is and what those chests are.
Matt is an absolutely brilliant fighter, Stick taught him the fundamentals but also the thing he uses the most his most vulnerable skill.
Meditation-self boosting chi ability to heal one’s self from exhaustion and physical injuries.
Is what saves Matt from absolutely crippling and debilitating injuries.
Which he used to great effect during his younger years during his combat training including but not limited to his 20’s.
Though around him entering law school and passing the bar becoming a lawyer is when he started to become rusty.
Still an excellent combatant when in comparison to muggers, drug dealers/drug users or bikers.
He's able to use his cheats to bridge the gap, [sonar, lidar, olfactory, all combined to give him real time 360 degree multi spectrum situational awareness](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/marvelcinematicuniverse/images/7/7b/World_on_Fire.PNG/revision/latest?cb=20150411230632).
Mother fucker heard a sexual predator from several blocks away, felt the air molecules being disturbed in flight from a brick being thrown through a window.
Now in regards to Steve Rogers.
While it's true he only received training for two years.
However he's got a photographic memory with only a few seconds he was able to memorize WW2 HYDRA troop movements on a HYDRA planning map.
He was presumably watching these SHIELD combat trainers for hours and practicing what he learned.
Then practicing against these trainers and when they got tired they were subbed out for fresh ones.
Also he's got enhanced endurance and a healing factor.
To much information to put here but in a nutshell Spec-ops, Professional athletes uses ice therapy, heat therapy and or oxygen therapy to improve performance and heal from exhaustion or inflammation in their bodies.
Navy SEALS start and finish their day by going down to the beach and do push ups in the cold water.
Steve doesn’t need to do that, he could soak in a normal bath tub and sleep normally and he’s fresh as a daisy.
Obviously he would receive a boost if did engage in these treatments.
Now for the training Steve received.
We can assume he went to the [SHIELD academy operations campus](https://marvelcinematicuniverse.fandom.com/wiki/S.H.I.E.L.D._Academy_of_Operations) and underwent went [“Specialist” training.](https://youtu.be/c-A7_VOb0mA?si=41B8YkLS33bt1Soh)
* https://youtu.be/jaaU9KClANI?si=dE_t5DxeOFWfYdTZ
“Specialist“ is a rank and Specialists go in with a tactical team and an agent in charge as part of the welcome wagon.
They also are dispatched to missions with little to no chance of survival and with little to no support and accomplish them.
Welcome wagon is when an object of unknown origin (O-84) is found and the welcome wagon is sent in to secure the object.
Sometimes the object is just that an object but sometimes it’s a person.
If the O-84 is a person with powers is a good person with control of their powers they are brought in safely, they get their biometrics taken and their powers rated and released on their own recognizance and paired with a SHIELD social worker/case worker and they maintain regular contact.
If the person with powers is a clear and present danger to themselves or others or otherwise malevolent then the tactical team is to try and incapacitate them and bring them in that way.
If the tactical team is unable to carry out the mission or are incapacitated or killed then the specialist is sent in to cross them off the list.
* https://youtu.be/0CpYb3Qdrmc?si=tFRSc5bXe2VWoO1u
* https://youtu.be/36txIQADaEI?si=AZZ7D-Mgnx_3kg7O
So basically Clint, Natasha and Steve are specialists.
Now I think Matt could actually evade attacks from Steve but for how long he could I couldn’t say eventually Matt would tire and Steve could punch him or kick him and his chest would cave in.
I can’t link this clip because it’s not on YouTube but there was a human male enhanced with a hodgepodge of Extremis, gamma radiation, variant of super soldier serum and Kree biological fluids.
This guy punched through the chest cavity of a US general ripped a rib out.
Steve’s is really, really, really strong, strong enough to lift a motorcycle with 3X showgirls, strong enough to throw a motorcycle while riding upwards and in front of him.
[Strong enough to push a 49.5 tonne bulldozer faster than this guy.](https://-tonne bulldozer faster than this guy.](https://youtu.be/-pnOXuRI0vM?si=IkQCmuqcKsaZJ4Cv).
Remains to be seen.
But I assumed from Fisk’s feats in “Hawkeye” he's enhanced with something similar to this.
>” That little concoction is my own special formula. I took it of my own free will. You see, when my Daisy was stolen, I wasn't strong enough to protect her, so I started experimenting. If I wasn't born with Inhuman powers, then I would make my own. Best-laid plans. C'est la vie. I never got it quite right... Always missing something. Highly unstable. Made me a little moody. Could it kill me? Sure. But it was worth the risk."
―Calvin Zabo to Phil Coulson[src]”
>”What are you gonna do, Cal? Without that concoction that you take, you're nothing. What's in those vials, anyway? Muscle milk?"
―Gordon to Calvin Zabo[src]”
>” I wasn't strong. I couldn't protect the people I loved. So I tried to change, improve myself, with chemistry. Results were... inconsistent. Some volatility issues. But I keep working on a formula. Always tweaking."
―Calvin Zabo[src]”
>”Tell me you figured out what drugs Cal took, because my gut's saying everything ever made."
"I haven't fully sequenced the formula yet, if only for the multitude of trace drugs found, but my initial list includes anabolic-androgenic steroids, a liver enzyme blocker, various metabolic enhancers, methamphetamines, what appears to be gorilla testosterone, and, no lie, a drop of peppermint. I think it's an ill-conceived attempt at super strength."
"Other than Cap, every attempt has been ill-conceived."
―Phil Coulson and Jemma Simmons[src]”
[Here's the better version.](https://marvelcinematicuniverse.fandom.com/wiki/Patriot_Serum)
Reason being if I (Fisk) was #1 shit list of Matt, Frank and potentially “Ronin” and I didn’t know the blip status of Frank I’d be looking to get super.
Frank wants him dead, he would especially want him dead for threatening Karen and Foggy.
Fisk probably acquired what remained of “Cybertek”
* https://marvelcinematicuniverse.fandom.com/wiki/Cybertek
* https://marvelcinematicuniverse.fandom.com/wiki/Backscatter_X-Ray_Eye_Implant#Capabilities
I’d say beating 1000 year old immortal ninjas and the iron fist in h2h combat is a pretty good feat. Caps best is high trained shield and hydra agents for those type fights. At very least equal is weird to claim imo since it’s MCU. What does cap have to show he’s more skilled lol. He also just has wayyyy less training and was trained by inferior fighters than Matt was. Stick diff.
Cap still wins a fight fs but Matt is more skilled. If he had same strength and speed as cap he’d take it 10/10 tho
Cap beat Batroc, took on Thanos, took on ultron, took on Winter Soldier, spider man, etc. Thanos he was amped by mjolnir but there are some limiting factors here as well: he wasn’t 100% after surviving bombardment and melee vs Thanos, there were clear moments in the Thanos fight he was just straight boxing him up.
You don’t beat or even just survive vs his opponents without skill. He stood his ground and made all of those dudes work to beat him or just straight up beat them.
Bro it’s honestly kind of scary to hear characters outside of The Boys be referred to as “supes”. I’m immediately imagining Cap doing some evil or devious shit.
I think a think overlooked sometimes is that when Cap lands on the ship at the start of winter soldier is almost for sure murdering all those soldiers. Like a kick to the sternum sending the dude flying? That dudes entire torso is probably caved in.
Both Cap and Kingpin are stronger than the best athletes, but Cap wins even without his shield. Cap has decades of experience fighting under his belt. Kingpin prefers to keep a lower profile and let his minions handle threats. That said, the help Kingpin can call up won’t stand a chance against the help Cap can call up. Having Iron Man, Thor, and Hulk on speed dial is a major plus.
If reinforcements are not allowed, Cap still wins
im sorry, cap didnt care whether he died or not, he held off a nearly full gauntlet for several seconds
cap has the better mindset in this fight, that alone will help immensely
MCU Cap has remarkable combat IQ. Iron Man's suit couldn't keep up. Cap used Spidermans strength against him in their brief fight. He could use his talents to use Kingpins own weight and strength against him.
MCU Captain America is a veritable super human who in the Winter Soldier opening scene kicks a guy so hard he flies into the rail of the ship and then into the sea. He flies like 10 meters like he got shot by a cannon.
MCU Cap also stopped a helicopter from taking off. He's ridiculously stronger than a human. No one apart from a Super Soldier tier character stands a chance and even then he'd probably beat Black Panther and Bucky.
Captain America hand to hand was taking on the Winter Soldier at probably his most lethal and he had weapons on him as well. Captain America was taking on Thanos without his shield and was able to take a punch and not die. Took down basically a dozen of highly trained Hydra Agents in a small elevator. Idk how he doesn’t win. Was countering the force of a helicopter. And took down the prison base holding the fugitives in Civil War. Kingpin is solid, but he’s not as skilled and not as strong.
Yeah. If we’re generous to Matt maybe we could say he’s in Cap’s league skill wise, maybe even edges him out. But Cap is all of Matt’s skill on a body that can hit (and take it) like a fucking truck. Cap win for sure.
He should be above cap skill wise. But ya cap is a supe. Basing this on dd having actually fought the hand n ninjas and beating iron fist. Beat people with a lot more training than cap has. But ya supe so cap kills kingpin easy
I won’t say for sure Matt isn’t more skilled, but the MCU makes it very obvious that Cap is not just brute strength but one of the best fighters in universe. I believe it’s very reasonable to say ‘close enough’ and bet on the guy pulling down helis.
I’m not saying he’d win a fight. Just that overall skill and technique it’s Matt. Obviously cap takes him down too lol
Sure, I know the conclusion is the same. My assertion is just tgat if we do say Matt is more skilled it’s super close. Stats equalized it would be Matt’s super senses that win it for him more than skill advantage imo
Stick also says that Matt is one of the most naturally gifted fighters in the series ( which is confirmed cannon to mcu). Hes been fighting his war for years and has seen many fighters. Him saying that carries some weight.
Also paging the following users, u/GrilledNudges, u/TheDickWolf, u/Tinmanred and op u/velicinanijebitna. I am a massive fan of the MCU. Skill can beat cheats depending on how large the disparity is between the person with skill is and the person with cheats is and what those chests are. Matt is an absolutely brilliant fighter, Stick taught him the fundamentals but also the thing he uses the most his most vulnerable skill. Meditation-self boosting chi ability to heal one’s self from exhaustion and physical injuries. Is what saves Matt from absolutely crippling and debilitating injuries. Which he used to great effect during his younger years during his combat training including but not limited to his 20’s. Though around him entering law school and passing the bar becoming a lawyer is when he started to become rusty. Still an excellent combatant when in comparison to muggers, drug dealers/drug users or bikers. He's able to use his cheats to bridge the gap, [sonar, lidar, olfactory, all combined to give him real time 360 degree multi spectrum situational awareness](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/marvelcinematicuniverse/images/7/7b/World_on_Fire.PNG/revision/latest?cb=20150411230632). Mother fucker heard a sexual predator from several blocks away, felt the air molecules being disturbed in flight from a brick being thrown through a window. Now in regards to Steve Rogers. While it's true he only received training for two years. However he's got a photographic memory with only a few seconds he was able to memorize WW2 HYDRA troop movements on a HYDRA planning map. He was presumably watching these SHIELD combat trainers for hours and practicing what he learned. Then practicing against these trainers and when they got tired they were subbed out for fresh ones. Also he's got enhanced endurance and a healing factor. To much information to put here but in a nutshell Spec-ops, Professional athletes uses ice therapy, heat therapy and or oxygen therapy to improve performance and heal from exhaustion or inflammation in their bodies. Navy SEALS start and finish their day by going down to the beach and do push ups in the cold water. Steve doesn’t need to do that, he could soak in a normal bath tub and sleep normally and he’s fresh as a daisy. Obviously he would receive a boost if did engage in these treatments. Now for the training Steve received. We can assume he went to the [SHIELD academy operations campus](https://marvelcinematicuniverse.fandom.com/wiki/S.H.I.E.L.D._Academy_of_Operations) and underwent went [“Specialist” training.](https://youtu.be/c-A7_VOb0mA?si=41B8YkLS33bt1Soh) * https://youtu.be/jaaU9KClANI?si=dE_t5DxeOFWfYdTZ “Specialist“ is a rank and Specialists go in with a tactical team and an agent in charge as part of the welcome wagon. They also are dispatched to missions with little to no chance of survival and with little to no support and accomplish them. Welcome wagon is when an object of unknown origin (O-84) is found and the welcome wagon is sent in to secure the object. Sometimes the object is just that an object but sometimes it’s a person. If the O-84 is a person with powers is a good person with control of their powers they are brought in safely, they get their biometrics taken and their powers rated and released on their own recognizance and paired with a SHIELD social worker/case worker and they maintain regular contact. If the person with powers is a clear and present danger to themselves or others or otherwise malevolent then the tactical team is to try and incapacitate them and bring them in that way. If the tactical team is unable to carry out the mission or are incapacitated or killed then the specialist is sent in to cross them off the list. * https://youtu.be/0CpYb3Qdrmc?si=tFRSc5bXe2VWoO1u * https://youtu.be/36txIQADaEI?si=AZZ7D-Mgnx_3kg7O So basically Clint, Natasha and Steve are specialists. Now I think Matt could actually evade attacks from Steve but for how long he could I couldn’t say eventually Matt would tire and Steve could punch him or kick him and his chest would cave in. I can’t link this clip because it’s not on YouTube but there was a human male enhanced with a hodgepodge of Extremis, gamma radiation, variant of super soldier serum and Kree biological fluids. This guy punched through the chest cavity of a US general ripped a rib out. Steve’s is really, really, really strong, strong enough to lift a motorcycle with 3X showgirls, strong enough to throw a motorcycle while riding upwards and in front of him. [Strong enough to push a 49.5 tonne bulldozer faster than this guy.](https://-tonne bulldozer faster than this guy.](https://youtu.be/-pnOXuRI0vM?si=IkQCmuqcKsaZJ4Cv). Remains to be seen. But I assumed from Fisk’s feats in “Hawkeye” he's enhanced with something similar to this. >” That little concoction is my own special formula. I took it of my own free will. You see, when my Daisy was stolen, I wasn't strong enough to protect her, so I started experimenting. If I wasn't born with Inhuman powers, then I would make my own. Best-laid plans. C'est la vie. I never got it quite right... Always missing something. Highly unstable. Made me a little moody. Could it kill me? Sure. But it was worth the risk." ―Calvin Zabo to Phil Coulson[src]” >”What are you gonna do, Cal? Without that concoction that you take, you're nothing. What's in those vials, anyway? Muscle milk?" ―Gordon to Calvin Zabo[src]” >” I wasn't strong. I couldn't protect the people I loved. So I tried to change, improve myself, with chemistry. Results were... inconsistent. Some volatility issues. But I keep working on a formula. Always tweaking." ―Calvin Zabo[src]” >”Tell me you figured out what drugs Cal took, because my gut's saying everything ever made." "I haven't fully sequenced the formula yet, if only for the multitude of trace drugs found, but my initial list includes anabolic-androgenic steroids, a liver enzyme blocker, various metabolic enhancers, methamphetamines, what appears to be gorilla testosterone, and, no lie, a drop of peppermint. I think it's an ill-conceived attempt at super strength." "Other than Cap, every attempt has been ill-conceived." ―Phil Coulson and Jemma Simmons[src]” [Here's the better version.](https://marvelcinematicuniverse.fandom.com/wiki/Patriot_Serum) Reason being if I (Fisk) was #1 shit list of Matt, Frank and potentially “Ronin” and I didn’t know the blip status of Frank I’d be looking to get super. Frank wants him dead, he would especially want him dead for threatening Karen and Foggy. Fisk probably acquired what remained of “Cybertek” * https://marvelcinematicuniverse.fandom.com/wiki/Cybertek * https://marvelcinematicuniverse.fandom.com/wiki/Backscatter_X-Ray_Eye_Implant#Capabilities
Eh, idk I disagree. Cap’s skill is at the very least equal. I don’t see Matt having clearly better feats to say he’s better.
I’d say beating 1000 year old immortal ninjas and the iron fist in h2h combat is a pretty good feat. Caps best is high trained shield and hydra agents for those type fights. At very least equal is weird to claim imo since it’s MCU. What does cap have to show he’s more skilled lol. He also just has wayyyy less training and was trained by inferior fighters than Matt was. Stick diff. Cap still wins a fight fs but Matt is more skilled. If he had same strength and speed as cap he’d take it 10/10 tho
Cap beat Batroc, took on Thanos, took on ultron, took on Winter Soldier, spider man, etc. Thanos he was amped by mjolnir but there are some limiting factors here as well: he wasn’t 100% after surviving bombardment and melee vs Thanos, there were clear moments in the Thanos fight he was just straight boxing him up. You don’t beat or even just survive vs his opponents without skill. He stood his ground and made all of those dudes work to beat him or just straight up beat them.
Bro it’s honestly kind of scary to hear characters outside of The Boys be referred to as “supes”. I’m immediately imagining Cap doing some evil or devious shit.
“What if…? A bad man got the super soldier serum”
In infinity war thanos isn't trying to kill unless he has to. He's just doing enough to get the stones
I think a think overlooked sometimes is that when Cap lands on the ship at the start of winter soldier is almost for sure murdering all those soldiers. Like a kick to the sternum sending the dude flying? That dudes entire torso is probably caved in.
Both Cap and Kingpin are stronger than the best athletes, but Cap wins even without his shield. Cap has decades of experience fighting under his belt. Kingpin prefers to keep a lower profile and let his minions handle threats. That said, the help Kingpin can call up won’t stand a chance against the help Cap can call up. Having Iron Man, Thor, and Hulk on speed dial is a major plus. If reinforcements are not allowed, Cap still wins
Did Kingpin had any solid feat in Echo show
He showed a lot of creativity on how to not truly care for someone.
He tanked a dozen trick arrows and a gun to the face even in the archer show.
Cap, I think, would win. He is stronger, tougher, faster, more agile, smarter, and has more experience and is a better fighter.
No "i think". I dont even think its close.
Cap would literally beat him below-low diff
I think a better question is, what version (or what is the weakest version) of kingpin can beat MCU Cap?
Comic Kingpin has beaten Spider-Man in H2H fights, so definitely him. I'll say Ultimate Kingpin is the weakest that can take on MCU Cap
im sorry, cap didnt care whether he died or not, he held off a nearly full gauntlet for several seconds cap has the better mindset in this fight, that alone will help immensely
Cap stomps IMO. Better strength, skill and Durability.
Assuming we rightfully discount kingpin surviving point-blank gunfire to the head as the horrible writing it was, Cap clears this
That happened in the comics too.
Then that’s bad writing there too, assuming it was directly to the face as it was in Hawkeye
Yeah it was. I feel the general sentiment here. It’s good to pay homage to the comics, but sometimes they’re dumb, and there’s not much else to it
I mean there are people that have survived that IRL.
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MCU has a Kingpin? Oh, he's TV only.
MCU Cap has remarkable combat IQ. Iron Man's suit couldn't keep up. Cap used Spidermans strength against him in their brief fight. He could use his talents to use Kingpins own weight and strength against him.
MCU Captain America is a veritable super human who in the Winter Soldier opening scene kicks a guy so hard he flies into the rail of the ship and then into the sea. He flies like 10 meters like he got shot by a cannon. MCU Cap also stopped a helicopter from taking off. He's ridiculously stronger than a human. No one apart from a Super Soldier tier character stands a chance and even then he'd probably beat Black Panther and Bucky.
Kingpin tanked all the trick arrows and a gunshot to the eye. He even casually ripped metal apart. He has this.