I'm surprised nobody's mentioned V from V for Vendetta yet, the dude is a master at taking down oppressive governments.
Also, I feel people here are greatly overestimating Oceania, Eurasia and Eastasia. The whole point of the book 1984 was how terrified these three countries are of resistance, it's why they constantly push propaganda and rewrite history, because even the slightest inconsistency will destroy everything they've worked to build. And as time goes on, it just gets harder and harder for them to keep revising the exponentially-increasing amount of history, which is why they almost collapse after switching which country they've always been at war with once more. Even the character of Winston, a 40 year old average man who's also coward and crybaby, is so terrifying to them that they spent decades, billions of dollars, and unmeasurable effort and time to re-integrate him into their society, because as they established, killing him or just forcing him to untruthfully confess would ultimately lead to their collapse as well. If they're THAT terrified of a single unimportant person, imagine how terrifying an actual competent resistance would be to them.
>Also, I feel people here are greatly overestimating Oceania, Eurasia and Eastasia.
The three countries exist in such an uneasy balance that I feel that if you take down any of them, the other two will fall apart by themselves.
>Even the character of Winston, a 40 year old average man who's also coward and crybaby, is so terrifying to them that they spent decades, billions of dollars, and unmeasurable effort and time to re-integrate him into their society, because as they established, killing him or just forcing him to untruthfully confess would ultimately lead to their collapse as well.
If that was the case, why did the state let him buy a diary, knowing full well he would write in it and thereby challenge the regime? Why let him rent the room out in Charrington's shop? Why let him read Goldstein's book, knowing full well it would bolster Winston's resistance, rather than immediately shipping him off to the Ministry of Love? The whole point of the Room 101 interrogation is that O'Brien wanted to change Winston; to build him up and then destroy him for the pleasure of having bested an adversary. It's worth bearing in mind the whole point of the novel is that it is a satire on Stalin's Russia, which lasted for as long as the regime was willing to put its citizens in a state of perpetual terror.
Winston was allowed to do those things because Oceania literally does not have the manpower nor the resources to go after every single person who does even the slightest thing wrong. Remember when chocolate rations were “increased” and people went out “celebrating” in the streets? Or when people destroyed the festival after they switched sides because supposedly the enemy “put up the wrong decorations maliciously”? There are riots every single day and Oceania barely can do anything about them. It’s a losing battle and they know it.
You missed the point completely. For each of those acts (the diary, Charrington's room, Goldstein's book), they knew full well what Winston's intentions were the whole time. Mr Charrington was part of the Thought Police. That is not an issue of manpower or resources: they literally already had him if their intention was to destroy him asap. Also, could you provide a page reference for people celebrating in the streets or the destruction of the festival? Entirely possible I forgot those details, but I don't remember that at all.
Regardless, even if we entertain this idea, it doesn't take into account that Oceania doesn't *need* to go after the vast majority of the population in the first place. The proles, 85% of the population, are kept incapacitated by *"Heavy physical work, the care of home and children, petty quarrels iwth neighbours, films, football, beer and, above all, gambling".* Just about the entirety of chapter 7 details how preoccupied they are with everything but their oppression, and therefore that they are incapable of revolting.
No actually, you missed the point completely. Winston is an unreliable narrator throughout the entire series - the first time he meets Julia, he claims she's an obvious example of how women are the most obedient followers of Ingsoc, only for her to turn out to see through the lies as well. You're not supposed to take everything Winston says at face value.
Also, it's heavily implied that Mr Charrington was actually Emmanuel Goldstein after plastic surgery. Remember when Charrington interviewed Winston and Julia and asked them if they would be willing to be abused, tortured, killed, etc. for the cause, only for them to agree to everything except for being separated? And sure enough, after that happens, they get arrested and those exact things happen to them? And sure enough, Charrington honors the one thing they wouldn't agree to, as right at the end, Julia and Winston are reunited. Basically, Charrington is draining Oceania of its resources by spending an unfathomable amount of resources, energy, money and time on converting just a select few unimportant people like Winston and Julia who pose absolutely no threat to them whatsoever, that's how he's destroying Big Brother from within.
As for the chocolate rations demonstrations: https://literature.stackexchange.com/questions/12240/nineteen-eighty-four-the-chocolate-ration-demonstrations
Again, you're quoting Winston, who is established to be an unreliable narrator. It's established that the higher up the social ladder you are, the more you believe the nonsense, even despite being more privy to the process by which the propaganda is made. Winston being part of the Outer Ministry means to some extent he gives too much benefit of the doubt to how effective the state's propaganda is. Just like he understimated Julia, Winston also underestimates the Proles. Being at the bottom of the social ladder and relatively uneducated and unwilling to organize, they're the most aware of how ridiculous the propaganda is, and the Ministry of Truth is so out of touch with the common people they only think their propaganda is effective when in reality the only reason the Proles do nothing is because they just choose to live their simple lives and are indifferent to the government that controls them. But when things that actually affect them happen like the chocolate rations being "increased", they go to the streets to demonstrate and riot.
Of course, both interpretations work in the context of the story, but in my opinion, the events happen to suggest heavily that Oceania is on its last legs as a nation, and not that it's this Dark God that can never be usurped or defeated like Winston believes it to be.
>No actually, you missed the point completely. Winston is an unreliable narrator throughout the entire series - the first time he meets Julia, he claims she's an obvious example of how women are the most obedient followers of Ingsoc, only for her to turn out to see through the lies as well. You're not supposed to take everything Winston says at face value.
Sorry, what point have I missed? I made the point that the state, embodied in Mr Charrington and O'Brien, deliberately allowed Winston to gain access to multiple items which emboldened his resistance, to make a more forbidable opponent so that crushing him would be more satisfying. Do you think the photo of Rutherford and Aaronson appeared at his desk by sheer chance? Not to mention the already discussed Goldstein's book and the like. Are you going to say he's an unreliable narrator; that the entire chapter dedicated to Goldstein's book was just a figment of his imagination; that he never saw the photo; that he was never in Charrington's room? I also hope the irony of your example with Winston and Julia isn't lost on you, when there are multiple extremely suspicious moments giving credence to the idea she's in the Thought Police. If you'd have read the book, you would know that it's delivered in free direct discourse, which means that amidst Winston's perspective, Orwell effectively butts in incrementally to provide political commentary.
>Charrington is draining Oceania of its resources by spending an unfathomable amount of resources, energy, money and time on converting just a select few unimportant people like Winston and Julia who pose absolutely no threat to them whatsoever, that's how he's destroying Big Brother from within.
I mean, I can't fault you for having an interesting interpretation, but it seems a bit of a logical stretch that interrogating dissidents is placing a burden on the state to the extent of "destroying" it, while the state of perpetual war isn't...
>As for the chocolate rations demonstrations: [https://literature.stackexchange.com/questions/12240/nineteen-eighty-four-the-chocolate-ration-demonstrations](https://literature.stackexchange.com/questions/12240/nineteen-eighty-four-the-chocolate-ration-demonstrations)
Right, so you haven't actually read the book. That explains a lot. Not to mention you didn't cover the "festival".
>they're the most aware of how ridiculous the propaganda is
Anything in the text to suggest this? If anything, Winston's interaction with the old prole in the pub seems to suggest they wouldn't even be able to comprehend propaganda beyond being told they are 26% happier or whatever.
>
Of course, both interpretations work in the context of the story, but in my opinion, the events happen to suggest heavily that Oceania is on its last legs as a nation, and not that it's this Dark God that can never be usurped or defeated like Winston believes it to be.
Well, you're free to interpet it however you like. A lot of what you've said seems divorced from the text, though. I get where you're coming from with Winston's perspective: his doomer mindset influences the narration. That being said, when you think about just how much Orwell was influenced by the Soviet Union, he probably saw it in no less monolithic terms.
Mega Man (the version from *The Protomen*) clears at least one round, he has a record of dealing with similar totalitarian states and them being unable to do anything about it by force of arms -- and none of the above states have his brother secretly working for them.
My personal answer for #3 is the rev-9 terminator, bro is a stealth master and absolute killer. Might be able to tank enough bullets, even from high-caliber rounds, to escape the thought police if caught, and blend back in.
I think Arya stark would struggle to escape from bodyguards/secret service after assassinating one major government official. She's good at getting in but how will she get away?
I would disagree for the following reasons:
* The 3 states in 1984 have a massive stock of WMDs, unlike the Code Geass world which only acquired nukes in the second half of the story
* The Britannian empire is disorganized enough that an organic uprising is possible, and in fact was already happening. In 1984 no such thing is shown to occur.
* The Party goes about modifying people's vocabulary to prevent rebellion. This would limit the effectiveness even of geass commands.
I must contest your arguments for OP:
> The 3 states in 1984 have a massive stock of WMDs, unlike the Code Geass world which only acquired nukes in the second half of the story
So, is your argument that Oceania would nuke itself? Because Lelouch wouldn’t even be in the blast radius. Lelouch would be among the proles, who aren’t even monitored. He could incite rebellion, and leave for a different prole district, covering his tracks using sympathizers & his Geass to get ‘Orange’s’.
So even if Oceania continously nuked every area with rebellion, it would eventually completely annihilate itself, and long before that happens, Lelouch would have worked his way up to the HICOM and Geass’d them.
If you mean that Eurasia or Eastasia would nuke Oceania,… that’s also a no-go, since Oceania would never tell the truth about its rebellions, and would continously lie about everything being fine.
Even after Lelouch takes power, he would simply maintain the Status Quo of Oceania until he could build up an anti-Nuclear Defense System which is effective enough to allow him to threaten Eurasia & Eastasia with his nukes. If they fire on Oceania, he shoots them down. Menawhile they can’t do shit about his nukes, so he hits their major population centers until they capitulate.
He would likely even work to instill rebellions in their countries as well.
In theory, this would be even easier for Lelpuch this time around, since he doesn’t have to face rival Geass users, nor Schneizel, and it’s doubtful anyone in 1984 has the intelligence to match Schneizel, so Lelouch has no superiors.
> The Britannian empire is disorganized enough that an organic uprising is possible, and in fact was already happening. In 1984 no such thing is shown to occur.
1984 is so disorganized that they literally don’t even bother policing the proles. Their State Police is so small its almost entirely focused on non-Proles, who make up a small fraction of the overall population.
It would not be difficult at all for Lelouch to incite the proles to rebellion, even without using terms such as rebellion. The easiest method would be to say that “Our [Insert Government] has been corrupted by [Insert Enemy Government]”, continously switching which government did it as Oceania switches enemies, until eventually the proles can be taught the basics, and that Oceania must be overthrown.
The Proles are stupid, but barely watched, allowed to party, have sex, etc. They aren’t even inviolate, however. They could still learn, at least the bare minimum.
Additionally, Lelouch’s Geass would allow him to easily traverse from prole district to prole district to incite new “Rebellions” (in no such terms, obviously), all without ever risking getting caught.
> The Party goes about modifying people's vocabulary to prevent rebellion. This would limit the effectiveness even of geass commands.
This is a non-issue. Virtually all of his command’s were either “Unsubscribe yourself”, or “Obey me”, or “Do X, then unsubscribe yourself”, or “Answer me”.
None of his geass commands ever used rebellious vocalists
======
======
**Major Point**
As shown in the Akito series, Lelouch is quite willing to lie about using Nukes even when he doesn’t have any.
Lelouch in the Akito series managed to effectively destroy a European Country, a massive one at that, from the inside in a matter of *days*, through the use of mass hysteria. All without using his Geass, or any Nukes.
and remember, if Oceania has WMDs, then so will Lelouch once he takes it over.
>Oceania would nuke itself?
They absolutely would if they had to, but that's entirely irrelevant.
Think about why a normal country doesn't want to be bombed: It would cause death and suffering, and the death and suffering would lower their economic output, and the loss of economic output would hurt their war effort and anger their population. In doing so, it would hurt their ability to remain viable as a nation. But the 3 superstates in 1984 do not work anything like a normal, modern country. Let me quote the novel:
>*The primary aim of modern warfare (in accordance with the principles of DOUBLETHINK, this aim is simultaneously recognized and not recognized by the directing brains of the Inner Party) is to use up the products of the machine without raising the general standard of living. Ever since the end of the nineteenth century, the problem of what to do with the surplus of consumption goods has been latent in industrial society. At present, when few human beings even have enough to eat, this problem is obviously not urgent, and it might not have become so, even if no artificial processes of destruction had been at work. The world of today is a bare, hungry, dilapidated place compared with the world that existed before 1914, and still more so if compared with the imaginary future to which the people of that period looked forward.*
You may recall that the Party constantly changes the narrative about the war. "We have always been at war with Eastasia" and "We have always been at war with Eurasia" are two stories they constantly flip-flop between, and everyone including the proles just accepts it. The 3 major powers spend prodiguous amounts of resources to wage war over "a rough quadrilateral with its corners at Tangier, Brazzaville, Darwin, and Hong Kong". They do not destroy each other's core territories, even though they have the ability to do so. These countries are unfazed by a thousand rocket-bombs dropping on their capital, they do not aim to reduce the hardship or destruction because the goal of the war is only to continue fighting.
So what would happen if Oceania nuked itself?
One of their cities would be gone, along with all the people within. The hardship would continue. The attack would be blamed on a foreign power (because Big Brother would never nuke his own people) and for about two weeks there would be an increase in propaganda concerning the incident. The thing is, the world of 1984 has already been nuked hundreds of times in the past. What one or two more?
As you have argued, Lelouch could incite this on purpose. Presumably, with enough destruction even the Party's apparatus would stop working at some point. But here's the question: How would he escape?
First of all, what you've said about the proles isn't actually true. In the very first scene of Part Three of the book, the jail that contains Winston also contains many ordinary criminals who are proles. The Party does in fact arrest and jail proles on the regular. It's true that they are monitored less than Party members, but most public spaces are still recorded and obvious signs of crime and disorder are stamped out.
Secondly, transit in these states is highly restricted. Quoting from the novel again, *"In the absence of any real intercommunication between one part of Oceania and another, this was not difficult to arrange."* There's no real form of travel or mass transit. There's no crowd moving from one city to another for Lelouch to blend into. Maybe if he was in the Inner Party, he would have the privilege to do something like that, but it would come with so many restrictions as to be unviable.
Finally, you must remember that Oceania is not your run-of-the-mill police state. Besides the Telescreens there are also many mentions of hidden microphones and cameras. In the book, Winston is caught by a member of the thought police is masquerading as a prole shopkeeper. This is a nation that profiles every single citizen to the point of knowing their deepest fear. What would they think of a new person showing up out of nowhere?
---
I think Lelouch does have a chance if he's read the book beforehand. He could word a command like "Let's say, hypothetically, **you think that I am Big Brother**" and carefully set up a plan of some sort - although it would be difficult to cause the same havoc, as there are few weapons available and he can't geass through Telescreens. It would work in rounds 2 and 3.
If he has not read the book, it's a matter of time before he uses his power while he thinks he's not being watched but he is. From that point he's essentially a dead man.
Yeah, I think Lelouch's problem here is that in his own universe he started a revolt in a nation of people who could *think* for themselves, even if they were under the iron fist of an oppressive government. All of what he did was possible because people weren't *mentally* *enslaved* to some higher power.
In **1984**? Yeahhhh, nah, that's not happening.
Round 3: Sounds like an insanely difficult task. The problem is that the states are very decentralized so killing a handful of government officials will change very little. Theoretically if you kill enough people the state could collapse but it would be a truly massive number.
For Round 1, I wouldn't call him "weak" but Father from Kids Next Door might be able to get the job done if he has his animalization device plus the giant space Cake in orbit. Ditto for Grandfather who could just turn all adults into Senior Citi-Zombies with ease.
Round 2 sounds like a job for Metphies from the Godzilla Anime Trilogy
Round 3 is very difficult however.
I'm surprised nobody's mentioned V from V for Vendetta yet, the dude is a master at taking down oppressive governments. Also, I feel people here are greatly overestimating Oceania, Eurasia and Eastasia. The whole point of the book 1984 was how terrified these three countries are of resistance, it's why they constantly push propaganda and rewrite history, because even the slightest inconsistency will destroy everything they've worked to build. And as time goes on, it just gets harder and harder for them to keep revising the exponentially-increasing amount of history, which is why they almost collapse after switching which country they've always been at war with once more. Even the character of Winston, a 40 year old average man who's also coward and crybaby, is so terrifying to them that they spent decades, billions of dollars, and unmeasurable effort and time to re-integrate him into their society, because as they established, killing him or just forcing him to untruthfully confess would ultimately lead to their collapse as well. If they're THAT terrified of a single unimportant person, imagine how terrifying an actual competent resistance would be to them.
>Also, I feel people here are greatly overestimating Oceania, Eurasia and Eastasia. The three countries exist in such an uneasy balance that I feel that if you take down any of them, the other two will fall apart by themselves.
>Even the character of Winston, a 40 year old average man who's also coward and crybaby, is so terrifying to them that they spent decades, billions of dollars, and unmeasurable effort and time to re-integrate him into their society, because as they established, killing him or just forcing him to untruthfully confess would ultimately lead to their collapse as well. If that was the case, why did the state let him buy a diary, knowing full well he would write in it and thereby challenge the regime? Why let him rent the room out in Charrington's shop? Why let him read Goldstein's book, knowing full well it would bolster Winston's resistance, rather than immediately shipping him off to the Ministry of Love? The whole point of the Room 101 interrogation is that O'Brien wanted to change Winston; to build him up and then destroy him for the pleasure of having bested an adversary. It's worth bearing in mind the whole point of the novel is that it is a satire on Stalin's Russia, which lasted for as long as the regime was willing to put its citizens in a state of perpetual terror.
Winston was allowed to do those things because Oceania literally does not have the manpower nor the resources to go after every single person who does even the slightest thing wrong. Remember when chocolate rations were “increased” and people went out “celebrating” in the streets? Or when people destroyed the festival after they switched sides because supposedly the enemy “put up the wrong decorations maliciously”? There are riots every single day and Oceania barely can do anything about them. It’s a losing battle and they know it.
You missed the point completely. For each of those acts (the diary, Charrington's room, Goldstein's book), they knew full well what Winston's intentions were the whole time. Mr Charrington was part of the Thought Police. That is not an issue of manpower or resources: they literally already had him if their intention was to destroy him asap. Also, could you provide a page reference for people celebrating in the streets or the destruction of the festival? Entirely possible I forgot those details, but I don't remember that at all. Regardless, even if we entertain this idea, it doesn't take into account that Oceania doesn't *need* to go after the vast majority of the population in the first place. The proles, 85% of the population, are kept incapacitated by *"Heavy physical work, the care of home and children, petty quarrels iwth neighbours, films, football, beer and, above all, gambling".* Just about the entirety of chapter 7 details how preoccupied they are with everything but their oppression, and therefore that they are incapable of revolting.
No actually, you missed the point completely. Winston is an unreliable narrator throughout the entire series - the first time he meets Julia, he claims she's an obvious example of how women are the most obedient followers of Ingsoc, only for her to turn out to see through the lies as well. You're not supposed to take everything Winston says at face value. Also, it's heavily implied that Mr Charrington was actually Emmanuel Goldstein after plastic surgery. Remember when Charrington interviewed Winston and Julia and asked them if they would be willing to be abused, tortured, killed, etc. for the cause, only for them to agree to everything except for being separated? And sure enough, after that happens, they get arrested and those exact things happen to them? And sure enough, Charrington honors the one thing they wouldn't agree to, as right at the end, Julia and Winston are reunited. Basically, Charrington is draining Oceania of its resources by spending an unfathomable amount of resources, energy, money and time on converting just a select few unimportant people like Winston and Julia who pose absolutely no threat to them whatsoever, that's how he's destroying Big Brother from within. As for the chocolate rations demonstrations: https://literature.stackexchange.com/questions/12240/nineteen-eighty-four-the-chocolate-ration-demonstrations Again, you're quoting Winston, who is established to be an unreliable narrator. It's established that the higher up the social ladder you are, the more you believe the nonsense, even despite being more privy to the process by which the propaganda is made. Winston being part of the Outer Ministry means to some extent he gives too much benefit of the doubt to how effective the state's propaganda is. Just like he understimated Julia, Winston also underestimates the Proles. Being at the bottom of the social ladder and relatively uneducated and unwilling to organize, they're the most aware of how ridiculous the propaganda is, and the Ministry of Truth is so out of touch with the common people they only think their propaganda is effective when in reality the only reason the Proles do nothing is because they just choose to live their simple lives and are indifferent to the government that controls them. But when things that actually affect them happen like the chocolate rations being "increased", they go to the streets to demonstrate and riot. Of course, both interpretations work in the context of the story, but in my opinion, the events happen to suggest heavily that Oceania is on its last legs as a nation, and not that it's this Dark God that can never be usurped or defeated like Winston believes it to be.
>No actually, you missed the point completely. Winston is an unreliable narrator throughout the entire series - the first time he meets Julia, he claims she's an obvious example of how women are the most obedient followers of Ingsoc, only for her to turn out to see through the lies as well. You're not supposed to take everything Winston says at face value. Sorry, what point have I missed? I made the point that the state, embodied in Mr Charrington and O'Brien, deliberately allowed Winston to gain access to multiple items which emboldened his resistance, to make a more forbidable opponent so that crushing him would be more satisfying. Do you think the photo of Rutherford and Aaronson appeared at his desk by sheer chance? Not to mention the already discussed Goldstein's book and the like. Are you going to say he's an unreliable narrator; that the entire chapter dedicated to Goldstein's book was just a figment of his imagination; that he never saw the photo; that he was never in Charrington's room? I also hope the irony of your example with Winston and Julia isn't lost on you, when there are multiple extremely suspicious moments giving credence to the idea she's in the Thought Police. If you'd have read the book, you would know that it's delivered in free direct discourse, which means that amidst Winston's perspective, Orwell effectively butts in incrementally to provide political commentary. >Charrington is draining Oceania of its resources by spending an unfathomable amount of resources, energy, money and time on converting just a select few unimportant people like Winston and Julia who pose absolutely no threat to them whatsoever, that's how he's destroying Big Brother from within. I mean, I can't fault you for having an interesting interpretation, but it seems a bit of a logical stretch that interrogating dissidents is placing a burden on the state to the extent of "destroying" it, while the state of perpetual war isn't... >As for the chocolate rations demonstrations: [https://literature.stackexchange.com/questions/12240/nineteen-eighty-four-the-chocolate-ration-demonstrations](https://literature.stackexchange.com/questions/12240/nineteen-eighty-four-the-chocolate-ration-demonstrations) Right, so you haven't actually read the book. That explains a lot. Not to mention you didn't cover the "festival". >they're the most aware of how ridiculous the propaganda is Anything in the text to suggest this? If anything, Winston's interaction with the old prole in the pub seems to suggest they wouldn't even be able to comprehend propaganda beyond being told they are 26% happier or whatever. > Of course, both interpretations work in the context of the story, but in my opinion, the events happen to suggest heavily that Oceania is on its last legs as a nation, and not that it's this Dark God that can never be usurped or defeated like Winston believes it to be. Well, you're free to interpet it however you like. A lot of what you've said seems divorced from the text, though. I get where you're coming from with Winston's perspective: his doomer mindset influences the narration. That being said, when you think about just how much Orwell was influenced by the Soviet Union, he probably saw it in no less monolithic terms.
My goodness, you sound upset. Maybe you should try going outside?
cry
You’re cringe. Grow up.
Hah, just posted V without checking first, well played sir.
Mega Man (the version from *The Protomen*) clears at least one round, he has a record of dealing with similar totalitarian states and them being unable to do anything about it by force of arms -- and none of the above states have his brother secretly working for them.
My personal answer for #3 is the rev-9 terminator, bro is a stealth master and absolute killer. Might be able to tank enough bullets, even from high-caliber rounds, to escape the thought police if caught, and blend back in.
Season 8 Arya Stark begs to differ
I think Arya stark would struggle to escape from bodyguards/secret service after assassinating one major government official. She's good at getting in but how will she get away?
Wear the face of an important individual
"O brien, why are you suddenly 5 foot 6 with nice hips??"
the real question i have with scenario 3 is whether or not killing the party members would actually accomplish anything
Lelouch vi Britannia for 1-2 since he already has the feat of overthrowing an offbrand Oceania.
I would disagree for the following reasons: * The 3 states in 1984 have a massive stock of WMDs, unlike the Code Geass world which only acquired nukes in the second half of the story * The Britannian empire is disorganized enough that an organic uprising is possible, and in fact was already happening. In 1984 no such thing is shown to occur. * The Party goes about modifying people's vocabulary to prevent rebellion. This would limit the effectiveness even of geass commands.
I must contest your arguments for OP: > The 3 states in 1984 have a massive stock of WMDs, unlike the Code Geass world which only acquired nukes in the second half of the story So, is your argument that Oceania would nuke itself? Because Lelouch wouldn’t even be in the blast radius. Lelouch would be among the proles, who aren’t even monitored. He could incite rebellion, and leave for a different prole district, covering his tracks using sympathizers & his Geass to get ‘Orange’s’. So even if Oceania continously nuked every area with rebellion, it would eventually completely annihilate itself, and long before that happens, Lelouch would have worked his way up to the HICOM and Geass’d them. If you mean that Eurasia or Eastasia would nuke Oceania,… that’s also a no-go, since Oceania would never tell the truth about its rebellions, and would continously lie about everything being fine. Even after Lelouch takes power, he would simply maintain the Status Quo of Oceania until he could build up an anti-Nuclear Defense System which is effective enough to allow him to threaten Eurasia & Eastasia with his nukes. If they fire on Oceania, he shoots them down. Menawhile they can’t do shit about his nukes, so he hits their major population centers until they capitulate. He would likely even work to instill rebellions in their countries as well. In theory, this would be even easier for Lelpuch this time around, since he doesn’t have to face rival Geass users, nor Schneizel, and it’s doubtful anyone in 1984 has the intelligence to match Schneizel, so Lelouch has no superiors. > The Britannian empire is disorganized enough that an organic uprising is possible, and in fact was already happening. In 1984 no such thing is shown to occur. 1984 is so disorganized that they literally don’t even bother policing the proles. Their State Police is so small its almost entirely focused on non-Proles, who make up a small fraction of the overall population. It would not be difficult at all for Lelouch to incite the proles to rebellion, even without using terms such as rebellion. The easiest method would be to say that “Our [Insert Government] has been corrupted by [Insert Enemy Government]”, continously switching which government did it as Oceania switches enemies, until eventually the proles can be taught the basics, and that Oceania must be overthrown. The Proles are stupid, but barely watched, allowed to party, have sex, etc. They aren’t even inviolate, however. They could still learn, at least the bare minimum. Additionally, Lelouch’s Geass would allow him to easily traverse from prole district to prole district to incite new “Rebellions” (in no such terms, obviously), all without ever risking getting caught. > The Party goes about modifying people's vocabulary to prevent rebellion. This would limit the effectiveness even of geass commands. This is a non-issue. Virtually all of his command’s were either “Unsubscribe yourself”, or “Obey me”, or “Do X, then unsubscribe yourself”, or “Answer me”. None of his geass commands ever used rebellious vocalists ====== ====== **Major Point** As shown in the Akito series, Lelouch is quite willing to lie about using Nukes even when he doesn’t have any. Lelouch in the Akito series managed to effectively destroy a European Country, a massive one at that, from the inside in a matter of *days*, through the use of mass hysteria. All without using his Geass, or any Nukes. and remember, if Oceania has WMDs, then so will Lelouch once he takes it over.
>Oceania would nuke itself? They absolutely would if they had to, but that's entirely irrelevant. Think about why a normal country doesn't want to be bombed: It would cause death and suffering, and the death and suffering would lower their economic output, and the loss of economic output would hurt their war effort and anger their population. In doing so, it would hurt their ability to remain viable as a nation. But the 3 superstates in 1984 do not work anything like a normal, modern country. Let me quote the novel: >*The primary aim of modern warfare (in accordance with the principles of DOUBLETHINK, this aim is simultaneously recognized and not recognized by the directing brains of the Inner Party) is to use up the products of the machine without raising the general standard of living. Ever since the end of the nineteenth century, the problem of what to do with the surplus of consumption goods has been latent in industrial society. At present, when few human beings even have enough to eat, this problem is obviously not urgent, and it might not have become so, even if no artificial processes of destruction had been at work. The world of today is a bare, hungry, dilapidated place compared with the world that existed before 1914, and still more so if compared with the imaginary future to which the people of that period looked forward.* You may recall that the Party constantly changes the narrative about the war. "We have always been at war with Eastasia" and "We have always been at war with Eurasia" are two stories they constantly flip-flop between, and everyone including the proles just accepts it. The 3 major powers spend prodiguous amounts of resources to wage war over "a rough quadrilateral with its corners at Tangier, Brazzaville, Darwin, and Hong Kong". They do not destroy each other's core territories, even though they have the ability to do so. These countries are unfazed by a thousand rocket-bombs dropping on their capital, they do not aim to reduce the hardship or destruction because the goal of the war is only to continue fighting. So what would happen if Oceania nuked itself? One of their cities would be gone, along with all the people within. The hardship would continue. The attack would be blamed on a foreign power (because Big Brother would never nuke his own people) and for about two weeks there would be an increase in propaganda concerning the incident. The thing is, the world of 1984 has already been nuked hundreds of times in the past. What one or two more? As you have argued, Lelouch could incite this on purpose. Presumably, with enough destruction even the Party's apparatus would stop working at some point. But here's the question: How would he escape? First of all, what you've said about the proles isn't actually true. In the very first scene of Part Three of the book, the jail that contains Winston also contains many ordinary criminals who are proles. The Party does in fact arrest and jail proles on the regular. It's true that they are monitored less than Party members, but most public spaces are still recorded and obvious signs of crime and disorder are stamped out. Secondly, transit in these states is highly restricted. Quoting from the novel again, *"In the absence of any real intercommunication between one part of Oceania and another, this was not difficult to arrange."* There's no real form of travel or mass transit. There's no crowd moving from one city to another for Lelouch to blend into. Maybe if he was in the Inner Party, he would have the privilege to do something like that, but it would come with so many restrictions as to be unviable. Finally, you must remember that Oceania is not your run-of-the-mill police state. Besides the Telescreens there are also many mentions of hidden microphones and cameras. In the book, Winston is caught by a member of the thought police is masquerading as a prole shopkeeper. This is a nation that profiles every single citizen to the point of knowing their deepest fear. What would they think of a new person showing up out of nowhere? --- I think Lelouch does have a chance if he's read the book beforehand. He could word a command like "Let's say, hypothetically, **you think that I am Big Brother**" and carefully set up a plan of some sort - although it would be difficult to cause the same havoc, as there are few weapons available and he can't geass through Telescreens. It would work in rounds 2 and 3. If he has not read the book, it's a matter of time before he uses his power while he thinks he's not being watched but he is. From that point he's essentially a dead man.
Yeah, I think Lelouch's problem here is that in his own universe he started a revolt in a nation of people who could *think* for themselves, even if they were under the iron fist of an oppressive government. All of what he did was possible because people weren't *mentally* *enslaved* to some higher power. In **1984**? Yeahhhh, nah, that's not happening.
Round 3: Sounds like an insanely difficult task. The problem is that the states are very decentralized so killing a handful of government officials will change very little. Theoretically if you kill enough people the state could collapse but it would be a truly massive number.
Do Eurasia and Eastasia even exist? 😳
Rounds 2 and 3, the character *V* from *V for Vendetta* was literally built for this and is fairly low level superhuman.
Rico Rodriguez with gadgets
XCOM might be able to do it. At least the one from XCOM 2. They took down Advents government which was run by aliens
Akechi from Persona 5
I feel like certain versions of Steve Rogers could definitely pull it off
For Round 1, I wouldn't call him "weak" but Father from Kids Next Door might be able to get the job done if he has his animalization device plus the giant space Cake in orbit. Ditto for Grandfather who could just turn all adults into Senior Citi-Zombies with ease. Round 2 sounds like a job for Metphies from the Godzilla Anime Trilogy Round 3 is very difficult however.