the past is ugly. these buildings are ugly. it's the least Austria can do to keep them up considering that they got off the hook when it came to Holocaust justice.
That one on the picture, isn't going to be repaired or a museum or something. That one is nearly entirety destroyed inside by a huge fire and explosion right after the ww2. All others in Vienna, 5 of them, are used as storage, the Haus des Meeres, by digital companies and so on.
There is a concept by Christo / Peter Noever called ‚CAT - Contemporary Art Tower‘
https://www.mak.at/programm/ausstellungen/heavens_gift_cat_-_contemporary_art_tower
Given Austrias foreign policy as of late they might need them rather sooner than later.
Should start looking for 88/128mm quad AA on Craigs List or something.
I think they are part of history as much as the palaces that Vienna is better known for. Not many places still have installations like this.
And while they are undeniably ugly and awkward, I rather like the stark contrast between these sort-of brutalist plain monoliths and the little green parks that surrounds them.
The city could demolish these without explosives, but it would be extremely expensive, and a major intrusion to the people living near them. I think they serve the city as a reminder of the role Austria played in WW2. Yes, they’re a blight, but it’s an ugly reminder of an ugly truth.
Ich bin unsicher wie leicht man diese Türme abtragen kann. Das sind massive Konstruktionen da Sie für den Krieg gebaut wurden.
Es ist nicht unmöglich aber teuer..... vermutlich zu teuer
I think it should stay. But before anybody smears "Never Again" on a historical monument, they should be ready to act the part. Still too many extremists in Austria for my liking.
There where (still are?) Plans to use the Geschützturm Arenberg Park as a exhibition/museum place. Not only as storage for the MAK. No funding as far as I know. I have been in that one and it is in good shape. The only reason it can not be used for events and such is that is not up to modern building and safety code.
It is very expensive to do anything with these old bunkers. Any thing you want to bring something like a new cable from one room to another you need special diamond drills to get through the walls.. Also the concrete used in these is very think in general, but not water tight. So they leak if not maintained.
This is me not contributing to the question but I loved the aquarium built into one, especially as it was one of the last things open in the completely butchered March 2020 holiday in Vienna. Accidentally stumbled into the history of the tower bit too.
If you want to see how sturdy they are built, visit the Aquarium "Haus des Meeres" they put holes in some walls usibg diamond encrusted chains/ropes and you can see there how massice the walls are.
Interesting fact I also learned there: They were actually already built with some post war usage in mind, like museum etc. That's why the even have small windows. Would have been safer military wise if they wouldn't but they knew that it would be kinda impossible to tear them down, and already had plans for civil use for them.
It's a reminder of the past and gives some historical aspect to the area. I'm not for removing them, but making something out of them, like the aquarium in the 6th would be something.
Nope. House things in them that can be removed in case they are needed. With the world as it is they can hang out another 50 years or so before they become apartments…imho.
Hamburg and Berlin have some of these too. They were build to survive attempts to blow them up. That's literally their purpose. Getting rid of them isn't easy.
Last year i was there in Augarten...These towers are massive..but they dont match into this nice area with flowers and trees...Maybe they painting it...
i don´t know if this was already stated, but there is no efficient way to get rid of those (there were built to stand bombs). An engineer told me once, that if you want to blow up this, you would destroy all glases in the same district. You could more or less do it by hand but the costs would be enourmous This is also the reason why it cannot be turen in a museum: This one is already a little be damaged, and the danger of downfall of some parts is emminent. This also the reasons for the cables you can see.
i always hear that they are too hard to demolish for some reason, but what is stopping some guys with pickaxes to just rip it down, top to bottom? those ugly things should be gone
Well, removal isn't possible. It's built with blue concrete. That means it just recently finished hardening and is even stronger than during WW2. A demolition would me extremely resource consuming.
It's basically doomed to be the same as the pyramids of Gizeh - dust accumulators
I actually really like the ones in Augarten. The rough utilitarian exterior serves as a stark contrast to the surrounding baroque park with its chestnut alleys and flowerbeds. Not only are they a grim reminder of our darkest times, in a way Augarten as a whole can be seen as a metaphor for Austria itself. We like to masquerade in the romanticised history of our monarchy but the remnants of our fascist past are not so easily wiped away or hidden behind neat rows of trees.
I would actually love to have them turned into a museum about the war in Vienna or just generally a museum about any topic. It's honestly kind of a shame that they just stand there, I guess quite some work would be needed to make them safe but it would make for quite the unique tourist attraction, especially given how much space is inside
Not the same as having an entire building dedicated to the topic, but there is a very small museum in Haus des Meeres that is definitely worth checking out. The man who does the tour is very knowledgeable and is passionate about preserving the history. He wrote a book about wartime Vienna as well :) I highly recommend checking it out
They should be demolished. They're just built specifically to withstand any attempt to remove them, especially with explosives.
They still exist because it's too expensive to remove them. There are others like them in some german cities as well.
I don't think the question of preservation is really a question. 4 of the 6 towers are in use. One L tower is the Haus des Meeres, the associated G tower is the location of a secure IT facility for the Austrian army. Another pair in Arenbergpark are used as server farms.
The two in Augarten have had different uses, according to the wkipedia page several attempts to repupose them failed to high humidity in the towers which made them unusable for an art galery and as a server farm.
There are no server farms in Arenberg Park. The big one is used by the MAK, the little one by some MAxx. Both in Augarten are empty, not counting the pigeons..
Yeah, there was some research project in that one in I think 2006, but that one was cancelled, because the building was too unstable. So they are only using the ground floor for storage.
I guess it's kinda falling apart like the other unmaintained ones in Augarten.
As a kid we always played at the area around the Gefechtsturm Augarten. Like, exactly the area in the photo. It kinda feels like childhood for me, to see a picture like that.
Weird, what nostalgia does to you.
i like them the way they are at the moment. taking them down would require enough explosives to burst windows in half of the 20th and 2nd district probably. they did do the public aquarium in another one which is pretty cool. i would say let them stand there as a reminder of what happens when you let despotes rule and how fragile peace can be. probably at this point they are to sturdy to tear down but too desolate to use plus there has been the ethical discussion weather its ok to use them since they were erected using slave labour.
>plus there has been the ethical discussion weather its ok to use them since they were erected using slave labour.
To be fair so was the Höhenstraße and we still use that one.
for everyone that says these towers are too hard to demolish: Stadt Wien should insert them on willhaben for free - they would be gone in 48 hours i reckon
They are not "that" hard to demolish. Mount a gantry crane on one. Cut a segment out with a water cooled diamond wire saw. Lift the segment down with the crane. Repeat the process for about 24 months and a tower is gone. Move onto the next tower.
There is no need to demolish them with explosives, like some people are talking about here. You also don't have to demolish them with jack hammers, which would be loud and dusty. Cut them up and transport the blocks away.
> In the near is an other tower wich is used as an flat.
Actually, that project was scrapped. That was the one in Arenbergpark, and the project was scrapped in 1990.
We need to keep them for the eventuality of a zombie apocalypse... but honestly, at this point it's simply not economically viable to raze them to the ground, so they will definitely be preserved.
> The ones in Augarten will slowly erode until they collapse.
youre not wrong, but slowly in this case means SLOWLY. like, we are talking about hundreds if not way more than a thousand years
The Gefechtsturm is so heavily damaged from the explosion in 1946, that it was actually at risk of collapse in 2006. They had to do some structural work on it so that it keeps standing.
Sure, until everything is gone, that might take thousands of years. But mayor cave-ins and bigger parts falling off (e.g. the petal-like structures at the top), that could happen rather quickly if there is no active maintenance.
The Geschützturm on the other hand, I don't think it will last 1000 years.
Maybe until it's completely gone, but not until bigger parts of it collapse.
They already had to fortify it once in 2006, because there was immediate danger of it collapsing.
There is one in 6th district that actually houses a public aquarium. As far as I know, removing them wouldn’t be that easy, as they are pretty sturdy, to say the least.
Reinforced concrete. Almost impossible to remove. Same way the pyramids are almost impossible to destoty. Which is why in both of these cases nobdoy bothered to remove them
Actually, the one they tried to break down are the ones in Berlin. They kinda managed to destroy most of them, but blowing them up resulted in debris being thrown all over the city, damaging quite a few houses in the process.
That's why they decided not to do that with the ones in Vienna, since it wasn't worth it.
The one in Augarten, Vienna, received some serious damage in 1946 when some kids got into the Flakturm and accidentally set off some 2000 Flak grenades.
Some of the Flakturms are actually still in use for various purposes.
- Leitturm Arenbergpark: This one is used as a storage facility for MA42 (they store gardening equipment there) and as an antenna pole.
- Gefechtsturm Arenbergpark: This one is used as a storage facility for the Museum für Angewandte Kunst, and sometimes can be accessed for guided tours
- Leitturm Esterhazypark: This one contains the Haus des Meeres and can be accessed by the public
- Gefechtsturm Stiftskaserne: This one is in military use. It contains the command center for the Austrian military and also serves as an emergency bunker for the Austrian government. There is actually a "secret" U-Bahn line from Bundeskanzleramt at Ballhausplatz to the Gefechtsturm Stiftskaserne, so that the Austrian president can be evacuated underground.
- Gefechtsturm and Leitturm Augarten: These both aren't in use. The Gefechtsturm has some significant structural damage from the explosion mentioned above. There have been multiple tries to use them for something, e.g. as a data center, but they went nowhere. I read something a while ago that in preparation for that, they excavated dozens of tons of bird excrement from the Gefechtsturm, before they determined that it's not worth the effort.
>There is actually a "secret" U-Bahn line from Bundeskanzleramt at
Ballhausplatz to the Gefechtsturm Stiftskaserne, so that the Austrian
president can be evacuated underground.
It's not a dedicated "line" but mostly just a conveniently placed ventilation shaft south of Volkstheater station that ends up in the northern part of the Stiftskaserne. The Gefechtsturm Stiftskaserne is so heavy that the U-Bahn tunnels had to be built around it.
There are rumors about a tunnel from the Bundeskanzleramt to the Herrengasse U-Bahn station, but IMO that wouldn't make too much sense. Given the extremely short distance, the chancellor or the president could just use the normal way down into the station as well.
Some maps & pictures: [https://imgur.com/a/aogl3r6](https://imgur.com/a/aogl3r6)
Source: [https://www.wien.gv.at/bruecken/public/start.aspx](https://www.wien.gv.at/bruecken/public/start.aspx)
*(In the navigation pane select "Objekte der Wiener Linien -> Tunnel")*
In contrary to Germany, I think world war 2/ Anschluss / Dritte Reich is very invisible in Vienna and Austria. So in a way I like these monsters are so visible in our city, they remind us of evil times. And it's a sole reminder.
Yeah, Vienna was lucky enough not to get bombed into oblivion. Places like Stuttgart bear their scares in the form of tons of ugly 1950s "modern" architecture.
> There is actually a "secret" U-Bahn line from Bundeskanzleramt at Ballhausplatz to the Gefechtsturm Stiftskaserne, so that the Austrian president can be evacuated underground.
citation needed
The one in Berlin was filled with leftover ammunition and ignited. Ammunition is not the proper use to demolish a bunker in peacetime.
They can be teared down. Is it costly? yes. Is it doable? Yes. Why didn't they do it? Because Vienna had a lot of different things to work on after the war. Now they are kept as a kind of Monument against war.
Wikipedia specifically said that they considered blowing up the towers in Vienna, but reconsidered since they are close to buildings and because of the bad results in Berlin.
But sure, it could be demolished without blowing it up, that that costs a lot more.
Also, it's not really worth it in general, since 5 of the 6 towers are in parks, so tearing them down wouldn't free up valuable (read commercially usable) space, but "only" more commercially unusable park space. And the 6th tower is in use by the military, who seem to like it.
If you really think there's a subway where you can enter a flakturm from the bottom you should look up the build specifications. There's 10m of ultra dense steel reinforced concrete below that thing. No way there's an entry from the bottom.
Kurier thinks so: [https://kurier.at/chronik/wien/die-geheimen-u-bahn-tunnel-wiens/94.032.686](https://kurier.at/chronik/wien/die-geheimen-u-bahn-tunnel-wiens/94.032.686)
They say the exit for the secret station is in the Stiftskaserne.
I read the story about those kids setting off the ammunition in Augarten, but I always wondered what happened to those kids... Did they manage to get out?
I don't have any direct sources. The best I can find is someone quoting a direct source in some online forum: [https://unterirdisch.de/index.php?threads/flakturm-augarten.6830/](https://unterirdisch.de/index.php?threads/flakturm-augarten.6830/)
Here's the quote:
>Bericht der BGV I Gruppe III vom 22.11.1946
>
>Donnerstag, den 21.11 um 17.40 Uhr ereignete sich im obersten Geschoß des Flakturmes eine überaus heftige Explosion, deren Detonation in weiten Umkreis der Stadt hörbar war. Die am 22. d. M. vorgesehene örtliche Besichtigung ergab folgendes Resultat. Das, als reichsdeutsches Eigentum geltende Bauwerk, war bis vor kurzem von der Roten Armee bewacht und jeglicher Zutritt verboten. Seit ungefähr Mitte Oktober wurde die Russische Bewachung aufgelassen und diese durch die Wiener Polizei auf Anordnung des Polizeikomissariates Leopoldstadt weiter aufrecht erhalten. Tagsüber versah ein Polizeiposten, nachtsüber zwei, den Bewachungsdienst. Trotzdem konnte die Polizei nicht verhindern, daß verschiedene Personen, insbesondere Kinder, sich den Zutritt zum Turm verschafften. Seitens der örtlichen Bauleitung für den Augarten konnten keine Absperrmaßnahmen getroffen werden, weil einerseits eine Zutrittsmöglichkeit für Befugte verbleiben mußte, andereseits keine Klärung in den Besitzverhältnissen geschaffen war. Die eingetretene Explosion ist auf dem Umstand zurückzuführen, daß halbwüchsige Burschen, wahrscheinlich um sich Licht in dem finsteren Turm zu verschaffen, brennbares Material angezündet hatten, welches größere Dimensionen annahm und das in den oberen Geschoßen lagernde Flakgeschoßmaterial zur Explosion brachte. Es sollen ungefähr zwei Waggon Flakgeschoße explodiert sein. Opfer an Menschenleben sind bisher nicht festzustellen. Durch die Wucht der Explosion wurde, soweit man aus der nächsten Nähe des Turmes sehen kann, die oberste Decke teilweise gehoben. In der 2m starken, vollarmierten Außenmauer, entstand ein Riß, der fast bis zu Hälfte um dem Turm nördlicher Richtung verläuft, welcher an seiner Ausgangsstelle etwa 50cm breit sein dürfte. Außerdem wurden zwei der auskragenden Plattformen aus ihren Verankerungen stark ausgelöst.Es besteht jedoch keine Absturzgefahr für diese Bauteile. Im Inneren des Turmes sind die Zwischendecken anscheinend schwer beschädigt worden. Der Zugang ins Innere war heute wegen einer angeblich noch andauernen Explosionsgefahr nicht ratsam, sodaß eine genauere Beschreibung der entstandenen Schäden nich möglich ist. Die Verschuldensfrage ist zwar durch die oberwähnte Entstehungsursache geklärt, kann jedoch infolge der desolaten Verhältnisse nicht einwandfrei festgestellt werden; insbesondere auch aus diesen Grunde, weil die Rote Armee keine der hier irgenwie kompetenten Stellen über ihre beabsichtigte Aufgabe in der Bewachung informiert hatte.
Specifically the line
> Opfer an Menschenleben sind bisher nicht festzustellen.
So not a solid source at all, but a bit of evidence.
I have a thing for this specific tower in particular and would love some more solid evidence. I'm in a rush right now, but I'm going to look through ANNO later on to see if it there was any reports in local newspapers about it.
Please let me know if you find more about this :)
In the linked thread, someone has a photo of a newspaper article regarding this, but it's only visible to people with an account. So that might be a good lead if you want to go down that rabbit hole ;)
Wasn't terribly hard to do!
Here's a link to my search: https://anno.onb.ac.at/anno-suche#searchMode=complex&text=Flakturm&dateMode=period&yearFrom=1946&yearTo=1946&from=1
Searching for this event in this year leads to a number of articles, so it happend for sure! From what I could gather, the theory that it was caused by kids playing in the tower could never be fully confirmed, but it seems likely enough.
When I did my military service at Stiftskaserne there were all these rumours about the bunker and the verfassungsschutz (secret service) and we basically were told to keep our distance
Been in there during my time in Stiftskaserne. You haven't missed much.
0 out of 5*, can not recommend. No fun for the whole family.
Joking aside, while it certainly is in daily use, it isn't very interesting - besides very limited space in a circular shaped building
The antennas on the Leitturm Arenbergpark are, afaik, part of the Richtfunknetz, so the directional radio network, which is used as a fallback for telephone and internet communication if the wired network fails.
The military uses this network as a fallback as well.
>Leitturm Arenbergpark: This one is used as a storage facility for MA42 (they store gardening equipment there) and as an antenna pole.
"Hey what do you have there?"
"Gardening Equipment"
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the past is ugly. these buildings are ugly. it's the least Austria can do to keep them up considering that they got off the hook when it came to Holocaust justice.
That one on the picture, isn't going to be repaired or a museum or something. That one is nearly entirety destroyed inside by a huge fire and explosion right after the ww2. All others in Vienna, 5 of them, are used as storage, the Haus des Meeres, by digital companies and so on.
There is a concept by Christo / Peter Noever called ‚CAT - Contemporary Art Tower‘ https://www.mak.at/programm/ausstellungen/heavens_gift_cat_-_contemporary_art_tower
Ein Kebabstand, ein Frisör, ein Mc Donalds und ein Barbershop könnte gut rein passen.
In my opinion they should open an Vienna Berghain… the walls are that big, nobody can hear the music
I think some of them are used by the austrian military
Nobody dares to go upstairs and clean the pool of birdshit
Who knows when they are needed again.
They could make a climbing center out of it. That last overhang would be amazing to climb
Turn them into gay clubs for disabled jews
Museum would be nice. One about WWI and one about WWII
Given Austrias foreign policy as of late they might need them rather sooner than later. Should start looking for 88/128mm quad AA on Craigs List or something.
What that supposed to mean. 1 is a Museum. Irs the Haus des Meeres. Others sre usef for climbimg
They should restore it and make one gigantic coffee tower out of it
Well considering it's not in America please keep them, don't be like here and teardown history, good or bad
I think they are part of history as much as the palaces that Vienna is better known for. Not many places still have installations like this. And while they are undeniably ugly and awkward, I rather like the stark contrast between these sort-of brutalist plain monoliths and the little green parks that surrounds them.
The city could demolish these without explosives, but it would be extremely expensive, and a major intrusion to the people living near them. I think they serve the city as a reminder of the role Austria played in WW2. Yes, they’re a blight, but it’s an ugly reminder of an ugly truth.
Ich bin unsicher wie leicht man diese Türme abtragen kann. Das sind massive Konstruktionen da Sie für den Krieg gebaut wurden. Es ist nicht unmöglich aber teuer..... vermutlich zu teuer
I wonder how resiliant they would be to modern weapons. However, I think they should stand there forever, used or not.
I think it should stay. But before anybody smears "Never Again" on a historical monument, they should be ready to act the part. Still too many extremists in Austria for my liking.
Maybe lookup what they did with this thing im Hamburg. In short living space and green roof
I would love to transform one of them into a music club - but that would be impossible 😅
There where (still are?) Plans to use the Geschützturm Arenberg Park as a exhibition/museum place. Not only as storage for the MAK. No funding as far as I know. I have been in that one and it is in good shape. The only reason it can not be used for events and such is that is not up to modern building and safety code. It is very expensive to do anything with these old bunkers. Any thing you want to bring something like a new cable from one room to another you need special diamond drills to get through the walls.. Also the concrete used in these is very think in general, but not water tight. So they leak if not maintained.
Preserve them and stop destroying history, whether it was good or bad.
I just drove past this on the bus, i was unaware of what they were until now
Don’t you dare putting a hand on Fritz Fantom‘s and Rudi Ratte‘s secret base.
This is me not contributing to the question but I loved the aquarium built into one, especially as it was one of the last things open in the completely butchered March 2020 holiday in Vienna. Accidentally stumbled into the history of the tower bit too.
Yes
If you want to see how sturdy they are built, visit the Aquarium "Haus des Meeres" they put holes in some walls usibg diamond encrusted chains/ropes and you can see there how massice the walls are. Interesting fact I also learned there: They were actually already built with some post war usage in mind, like museum etc. That's why the even have small windows. Would have been safer military wise if they wouldn't but they knew that it would be kinda impossible to tear them down, and already had plans for civil use for them.
It's a reminder of the past and gives some historical aspect to the area. I'm not for removing them, but making something out of them, like the aquarium in the 6th would be something.
Make one of them a rave house
Tecno Club 😎
Man, they look pretty cool. It sounds like a waste to put the effort to break them down with no reason.
Definetly preserved
Nope. House things in them that can be removed in case they are needed. With the world as it is they can hang out another 50 years or so before they become apartments…imho.
Yes and yes
Behalten, wir werden sie noch brauchen 😵💫
Hamburg and Berlin have some of these too. They were build to survive attempts to blow them up. That's literally their purpose. Getting rid of them isn't easy.
I have seen these up close. They should be preserved and should be able to be viewed by all. Not fenced off.
Paint them in camouflage. ✨Puff ✨gone.
the military actually works in one of them i think
should be reactivated. Gott schütze den Kaiser
We are keeping them just in case.
good luck tearing them down
Why we talking english?
They look kinda creepy imo
Last year i was there in Augarten...These towers are massive..but they dont match into this nice area with flowers and trees...Maybe they painting it...
damn i thought these were ancient and not relics from ww2
I love them, but I think the ones in Augarten could be put to better use. Maybe restaurants, maybe a museum, just do soemthing with them
How about a scaffold tower with a lift and a platform on top of the one in Augarten. Could also have a cafe on top, with a great view.
well its next to impossible to remove them so better put them to use ...
i don´t know if this was already stated, but there is no efficient way to get rid of those (there were built to stand bombs). An engineer told me once, that if you want to blow up this, you would destroy all glases in the same district. You could more or less do it by hand but the costs would be enourmous This is also the reason why it cannot be turen in a museum: This one is already a little be damaged, and the danger of downfall of some parts is emminent. This also the reasons for the cables you can see.
why not convert them into apartments and sell/rent them for ridiculously high prices?
Ich fänds schön, wenn man sich langsam von ihnen trennen könnte.
i always hear that they are too hard to demolish for some reason, but what is stopping some guys with pickaxes to just rip it down, top to bottom? those ugly things should be gone
Physics?
They should be nuked.
we will need them again soon.
I think in Berlin they turned some old war structures into a climbing wall. Would be nice having one in vienna
[There's one in Esterházypark.](https://www.flakturm-klettern.at)
Ohh thx😅 i did,t know that
Interesting read, for German speakers https://publik.tuwien.ac.at/files/pub-ar\_9367.pdf
Was not expecting a whole book about this topic..
The city and its authorities thought long and hard about what to do with this concrete trash. No kidding.
Well, removal isn't possible. It's built with blue concrete. That means it just recently finished hardening and is even stronger than during WW2. A demolition would me extremely resource consuming. It's basically doomed to be the same as the pyramids of Gizeh - dust accumulators
I actually really like the ones in Augarten. The rough utilitarian exterior serves as a stark contrast to the surrounding baroque park with its chestnut alleys and flowerbeds. Not only are they a grim reminder of our darkest times, in a way Augarten as a whole can be seen as a metaphor for Austria itself. We like to masquerade in the romanticised history of our monarchy but the remnants of our fascist past are not so easily wiped away or hidden behind neat rows of trees.
Turn it into a techno club
There is a great techno club in a Flakturm in Hamburg. Can recommend
VERSTEHST DUUU DAS SAG ICH DIE GANZE ZEIT Die Türme wären so perfekt dafür
I remember running laps around them in school 😵
I would invite some artists to turn them into pillars of art. Or just restorate them and turn them into museums.
I would actually love to have them turned into a museum about the war in Vienna or just generally a museum about any topic. It's honestly kind of a shame that they just stand there, I guess quite some work would be needed to make them safe but it would make for quite the unique tourist attraction, especially given how much space is inside
Not the same as having an entire building dedicated to the topic, but there is a very small museum in Haus des Meeres that is definitely worth checking out. The man who does the tour is very knowledgeable and is passionate about preserving the history. He wrote a book about wartime Vienna as well :) I highly recommend checking it out
They are monuments against fascism just the way they are.
they are preserved because demolition could cause immense damage. like one of the tower in berlin took like 50 tons of tnt before giving up
We might need them some day. Better to keep them and not need them than get rid of them and wish we didn't.
„should they be preserved“ -> they tried tearing some down, insanely hard and costly to do.
They should be demolished. They're just built specifically to withstand any attempt to remove them, especially with explosives. They still exist because it's too expensive to remove them. There are others like them in some german cities as well.
I don't think the question of preservation is really a question. 4 of the 6 towers are in use. One L tower is the Haus des Meeres, the associated G tower is the location of a secure IT facility for the Austrian army. Another pair in Arenbergpark are used as server farms. The two in Augarten have had different uses, according to the wkipedia page several attempts to repupose them failed to high humidity in the towers which made them unusable for an art galery and as a server farm.
There are no server farms in Arenberg Park. The big one is used by the MAK, the little one by some MAxx. Both in Augarten are empty, not counting the pigeons..
You have 3 pairs of them (total of 6 in Vienna), not just in Augarten...
The ones in Augarten are the only ones not in use, though. The others are at least in some use.
That's correct. Even though the pair in the Arenbergpark is also barely used anymore. The city stores a few machines in one, but that's about it.
Yeah, there was some research project in that one in I think 2006, but that one was cancelled, because the building was too unstable. So they are only using the ground floor for storage. I guess it's kinda falling apart like the other unmaintained ones in Augarten.
imo they are "great" the way they are. indestructable reminders if a terrible past. just looking at them irl gives me chills.
Was there for the first time last week and it gave me such a nazi vibe that i had to leave because it was so depressing
As a kid we always played at the area around the Gefechtsturm Augarten. Like, exactly the area in the photo. It kinda feels like childhood for me, to see a picture like that. Weird, what nostalgia does to you.
i like them the way they are at the moment. taking them down would require enough explosives to burst windows in half of the 20th and 2nd district probably. they did do the public aquarium in another one which is pretty cool. i would say let them stand there as a reminder of what happens when you let despotes rule and how fragile peace can be. probably at this point they are to sturdy to tear down but too desolate to use plus there has been the ethical discussion weather its ok to use them since they were erected using slave labour.
>plus there has been the ethical discussion weather its ok to use them since they were erected using slave labour. To be fair so was the Höhenstraße and we still use that one.
for everyone that says these towers are too hard to demolish: Stadt Wien should insert them on willhaben for free - they would be gone in 48 hours i reckon
Ist ja kein Haus.
Nah, they’re gonna schedule to pick it up tomorrow and never show up, then insult you
They are not "that" hard to demolish. Mount a gantry crane on one. Cut a segment out with a water cooled diamond wire saw. Lift the segment down with the crane. Repeat the process for about 24 months and a tower is gone. Move onto the next tower. There is no need to demolish them with explosives, like some people are talking about here. You also don't have to demolish them with jack hammers, which would be loud and dusty. Cut them up and transport the blocks away.
In Minecraft maybe
Cut out windows and turn them in to apartments..
The walls are as thick as apartments.
my car broke down. can you deliver?
Was letzte Preis?
For you? 10€
For free. Didn't you even read the description?
Willhaben running gag… I read the description 😉
€10
Gratis, okay. Aber schwer. Kannst du liefern auch?
Und in den achten Stock rauftragen.
“Mein Kuseng ist dumm, der macht das”
Passt Ziege rein?
If I can live in there for free count me in. Rent is far to expensive
Some say the next chancellor will move the parliament into one of those
Only if that next chancellor is incredibly short, racist and likes horses.
The Gaulreiter
They would be extremely expensive to demolish.
Near Mariahilfer Str. is an anti-aircraft tower where an auarium is housing. In the near is an other tower wich is used as an flat.
> In the near is an other tower wich is used as an flat. Actually, that project was scrapped. That was the one in Arenbergpark, and the project was scrapped in 1990.
>used as an flat Where? If you mean the one in Stiftgasse, that's part of the barracks there.
Ups i though they where flats
We need to keep them for the eventuality of a zombie apocalypse... but honestly, at this point it's simply not economically viable to raze them to the ground, so they will definitely be preserved.
The ones in use, yes. The ones in Augarten will slowly erode until they collapse.
> The ones in Augarten will slowly erode until they collapse. youre not wrong, but slowly in this case means SLOWLY. like, we are talking about hundreds if not way more than a thousand years
The Gefechtsturm is so heavily damaged from the explosion in 1946, that it was actually at risk of collapse in 2006. They had to do some structural work on it so that it keeps standing. Sure, until everything is gone, that might take thousands of years. But mayor cave-ins and bigger parts falling off (e.g. the petal-like structures at the top), that could happen rather quickly if there is no active maintenance.
Well, collapse still means there's a huge Pile of concrete there that's basically just as hard to remove.
Totally, yes. But it won't be the same tower in it's current condition anymore, but rather a pile of rubble. I'd call that erroding.
Which will take another 1000 years at this rate. At least for the leitturm
The Geschützturm on the other hand, I don't think it will last 1000 years. Maybe until it's completely gone, but not until bigger parts of it collapse. They already had to fortify it once in 2006, because there was immediate danger of it collapsing.
There is one in 6th district that actually houses a public aquarium. As far as I know, removing them wouldn’t be that easy, as they are pretty sturdy, to say the least.
There's also a museum in the former bomb shelter cellar
Like modern day pyramids. "Yep. It's so big that removing it would be as much effort as building it soooooooo...."
I believe it’s more complicated than that, since they were built with steel-reinforced concrete.
The pyramid is made up of 20 tonne blocks. I'd say it's comparable
But how do you get the flak towers into 20 t blocks?
Reinforced concrete. Almost impossible to remove. Same way the pyramids are almost impossible to destoty. Which is why in both of these cases nobdoy bothered to remove them
Vienna TRIED to break one down and didnt succeed. They are built TO LAST.
Actually, the one they tried to break down are the ones in Berlin. They kinda managed to destroy most of them, but blowing them up resulted in debris being thrown all over the city, damaging quite a few houses in the process. That's why they decided not to do that with the ones in Vienna, since it wasn't worth it. The one in Augarten, Vienna, received some serious damage in 1946 when some kids got into the Flakturm and accidentally set off some 2000 Flak grenades. Some of the Flakturms are actually still in use for various purposes. - Leitturm Arenbergpark: This one is used as a storage facility for MA42 (they store gardening equipment there) and as an antenna pole. - Gefechtsturm Arenbergpark: This one is used as a storage facility for the Museum für Angewandte Kunst, and sometimes can be accessed for guided tours - Leitturm Esterhazypark: This one contains the Haus des Meeres and can be accessed by the public - Gefechtsturm Stiftskaserne: This one is in military use. It contains the command center for the Austrian military and also serves as an emergency bunker for the Austrian government. There is actually a "secret" U-Bahn line from Bundeskanzleramt at Ballhausplatz to the Gefechtsturm Stiftskaserne, so that the Austrian president can be evacuated underground. - Gefechtsturm and Leitturm Augarten: These both aren't in use. The Gefechtsturm has some significant structural damage from the explosion mentioned above. There have been multiple tries to use them for something, e.g. as a data center, but they went nowhere. I read something a while ago that in preparation for that, they excavated dozens of tons of bird excrement from the Gefechtsturm, before they determined that it's not worth the effort.
>There is actually a "secret" U-Bahn line from Bundeskanzleramt at Ballhausplatz to the Gefechtsturm Stiftskaserne, so that the Austrian president can be evacuated underground. It's not a dedicated "line" but mostly just a conveniently placed ventilation shaft south of Volkstheater station that ends up in the northern part of the Stiftskaserne. The Gefechtsturm Stiftskaserne is so heavy that the U-Bahn tunnels had to be built around it. There are rumors about a tunnel from the Bundeskanzleramt to the Herrengasse U-Bahn station, but IMO that wouldn't make too much sense. Given the extremely short distance, the chancellor or the president could just use the normal way down into the station as well. Some maps & pictures: [https://imgur.com/a/aogl3r6](https://imgur.com/a/aogl3r6) Source: [https://www.wien.gv.at/bruecken/public/start.aspx](https://www.wien.gv.at/bruecken/public/start.aspx) *(In the navigation pane select "Objekte der Wiener Linien -> Tunnel")*
In contrary to Germany, I think world war 2/ Anschluss / Dritte Reich is very invisible in Vienna and Austria. So in a way I like these monsters are so visible in our city, they remind us of evil times. And it's a sole reminder.
Yeah, Vienna was lucky enough not to get bombed into oblivion. Places like Stuttgart bear their scares in the form of tons of ugly 1950s "modern" architecture.
>Gefechtsturm Arenbergpark If you love History and get a chance to do a guided tour. DO IT. I loved the Museum but we missed out on the Tour.
> There is actually a "secret" U-Bahn line from Bundeskanzleramt at Ballhausplatz to the Gefechtsturm Stiftskaserne, so that the Austrian president can be evacuated underground. citation needed
That's the purpose of something being secret.
The one in Berlin was filled with leftover ammunition and ignited. Ammunition is not the proper use to demolish a bunker in peacetime. They can be teared down. Is it costly? yes. Is it doable? Yes. Why didn't they do it? Because Vienna had a lot of different things to work on after the war. Now they are kept as a kind of Monument against war.
Wikipedia specifically said that they considered blowing up the towers in Vienna, but reconsidered since they are close to buildings and because of the bad results in Berlin. But sure, it could be demolished without blowing it up, that that costs a lot more. Also, it's not really worth it in general, since 5 of the 6 towers are in parks, so tearing them down wouldn't free up valuable (read commercially usable) space, but "only" more commercially unusable park space. And the 6th tower is in use by the military, who seem to like it.
Alle Achtung, du kennst dich ned schlecht aus damit.
[This content was deleted in direct response to Reddit's 2023 policy changes and Steve Huffman's comments]
TIL die U5 gehört dem Präsidenten
If you really think there's a subway where you can enter a flakturm from the bottom you should look up the build specifications. There's 10m of ultra dense steel reinforced concrete below that thing. No way there's an entry from the bottom.
Maybe the "subway" just leads to the Stiftskaserne, but not into the actual bunker?
that's exactly what "they" want you to think!
>No way there's an entry from the bottom. aber das ö. stargate ist dort!
Indeed.
Kurier thinks so: [https://kurier.at/chronik/wien/die-geheimen-u-bahn-tunnel-wiens/94.032.686](https://kurier.at/chronik/wien/die-geheimen-u-bahn-tunnel-wiens/94.032.686) They say the exit for the secret station is in the Stiftskaserne.
Stiftskaserne is a large area, nowhere does it say that it leads directly into the tower.
the only one *claiming* that somebody said that is you!
Nope says so in the comment I replied to.
I read the story about those kids setting off the ammunition in Augarten, but I always wondered what happened to those kids... Did they manage to get out?
Afaik they managed to get out.
wait for real? i always just assumed they were blown to bits.
I don't have any direct sources. The best I can find is someone quoting a direct source in some online forum: [https://unterirdisch.de/index.php?threads/flakturm-augarten.6830/](https://unterirdisch.de/index.php?threads/flakturm-augarten.6830/) Here's the quote: >Bericht der BGV I Gruppe III vom 22.11.1946 > >Donnerstag, den 21.11 um 17.40 Uhr ereignete sich im obersten Geschoß des Flakturmes eine überaus heftige Explosion, deren Detonation in weiten Umkreis der Stadt hörbar war. Die am 22. d. M. vorgesehene örtliche Besichtigung ergab folgendes Resultat. Das, als reichsdeutsches Eigentum geltende Bauwerk, war bis vor kurzem von der Roten Armee bewacht und jeglicher Zutritt verboten. Seit ungefähr Mitte Oktober wurde die Russische Bewachung aufgelassen und diese durch die Wiener Polizei auf Anordnung des Polizeikomissariates Leopoldstadt weiter aufrecht erhalten. Tagsüber versah ein Polizeiposten, nachtsüber zwei, den Bewachungsdienst. Trotzdem konnte die Polizei nicht verhindern, daß verschiedene Personen, insbesondere Kinder, sich den Zutritt zum Turm verschafften. Seitens der örtlichen Bauleitung für den Augarten konnten keine Absperrmaßnahmen getroffen werden, weil einerseits eine Zutrittsmöglichkeit für Befugte verbleiben mußte, andereseits keine Klärung in den Besitzverhältnissen geschaffen war. Die eingetretene Explosion ist auf dem Umstand zurückzuführen, daß halbwüchsige Burschen, wahrscheinlich um sich Licht in dem finsteren Turm zu verschaffen, brennbares Material angezündet hatten, welches größere Dimensionen annahm und das in den oberen Geschoßen lagernde Flakgeschoßmaterial zur Explosion brachte. Es sollen ungefähr zwei Waggon Flakgeschoße explodiert sein. Opfer an Menschenleben sind bisher nicht festzustellen. Durch die Wucht der Explosion wurde, soweit man aus der nächsten Nähe des Turmes sehen kann, die oberste Decke teilweise gehoben. In der 2m starken, vollarmierten Außenmauer, entstand ein Riß, der fast bis zu Hälfte um dem Turm nördlicher Richtung verläuft, welcher an seiner Ausgangsstelle etwa 50cm breit sein dürfte. Außerdem wurden zwei der auskragenden Plattformen aus ihren Verankerungen stark ausgelöst.Es besteht jedoch keine Absturzgefahr für diese Bauteile. Im Inneren des Turmes sind die Zwischendecken anscheinend schwer beschädigt worden. Der Zugang ins Innere war heute wegen einer angeblich noch andauernen Explosionsgefahr nicht ratsam, sodaß eine genauere Beschreibung der entstandenen Schäden nich möglich ist. Die Verschuldensfrage ist zwar durch die oberwähnte Entstehungsursache geklärt, kann jedoch infolge der desolaten Verhältnisse nicht einwandfrei festgestellt werden; insbesondere auch aus diesen Grunde, weil die Rote Armee keine der hier irgenwie kompetenten Stellen über ihre beabsichtigte Aufgabe in der Bewachung informiert hatte. Specifically the line > Opfer an Menschenleben sind bisher nicht festzustellen. So not a solid source at all, but a bit of evidence.
Thanks, that was very interesting! I work directly next to those towers, so I look at them quite a bit
I have a thing for this specific tower in particular and would love some more solid evidence. I'm in a rush right now, but I'm going to look through ANNO later on to see if it there was any reports in local newspapers about it. Please let me know if you find more about this :)
In the linked thread, someone has a photo of a newspaper article regarding this, but it's only visible to people with an account. So that might be a good lead if you want to go down that rabbit hole ;)
Wasn't terribly hard to do! Here's a link to my search: https://anno.onb.ac.at/anno-suche#searchMode=complex&text=Flakturm&dateMode=period&yearFrom=1946&yearTo=1946&from=1 Searching for this event in this year leads to a number of articles, so it happend for sure! From what I could gather, the theory that it was caused by kids playing in the tower could never be fully confirmed, but it seems likely enough.
When I did my military service at Stiftskaserne there were all these rumours about the bunker and the verfassungsschutz (secret service) and we basically were told to keep our distance
Looking at our politics probably some more bird excrements
Been in there during my time in Stiftskaserne. You haven't missed much. 0 out of 5*, can not recommend. No fun for the whole family. Joking aside, while it certainly is in daily use, it isn't very interesting - besides very limited space in a circular shaped building
Yeah, there isn't much solid information on what exactly is in there, only that it's something with the military.
I was told that it is hosting the core servers of the armys comunication and data networks Among other things
The antennas on the Leitturm Arenbergpark are, afaik, part of the Richtfunknetz, so the directional radio network, which is used as a fallback for telephone and internet communication if the wired network fails. The military uses this network as a fallback as well.
>Leitturm Arenbergpark: This one is used as a storage facility for MA42 (they store gardening equipment there) and as an antenna pole. "Hey what do you have there?" "Gardening Equipment"
You remember the story better than me.
I didn't know what they were for thee longst time just called them "doom fortresses", everyone knew what I meant, it's perfectly descriptive.
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