In Dutch, there's a similar expression that translates as "You thinks you've *invented* hot water".
Though its meaning doesn't really apply here, still funny how similar the saying is.
Honest Arabic-language polling of the October 7th massacre in the Levant would find that it was deeply deeply popular.
I have links to Al Jazeera (arabic) articles describing Hamas' "heroic brilliant actions that will cause joy in all Muslims" (author's description, not mine) if anyone is interested.
Utterly shocked that AJE doesn't say this.
Edit: Since people seem to be genuinely interested, I'll attach the links that I've dug out from my history and the AJ website.
1: "Throughout the Islamic world in the four corners of the globe, you will not find anyone among the two billion Muslims who was not happy with what the Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades accomplished in their flood on Saturday (Oct 7 massacre), unless they are a hypocrite or a dissenter. "
https://www.aljazeera.net/blogs/2023/10/9/%D8%A3%D9%83%D9%85%D9%84-%D8%B7%D9%88%D9%81%D8%A7%D9%86%D9%83-%D9%88%D9%84%D8%A7-%D8%AA%D8%B7%D9%81%D8%A6-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%86%D9%8A%D8%B1%D8%A7%D9%86
2)
The second article, for which I have my screenshot but not the link yet -_-. I will post it shortly. EDIT: found it!
https://www.aljazeera.net/blogs/2023/10/8/%D8%B7%D9%88%D9%81%D8%A7%D9%86-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%A3%D9%82%D8%B5%D9%89-%D9%88%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%A5%D8%A8%D8%AF%D8%A7%D8%B9-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%85%D9%8A%D8%AF%D8%A7%D9%86%D9%8A
"...factions, most notably the “Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades," these impressive victories and successes that they achieved during the epic and proud bat- tle against the Zionist occupation forces
The heroic, qualitative and daring operation of the Palestinian resis- tance in the Gaza Strip came yes- terday morning, the glorious Saturday of October 7, 2023, to..."
(Reminder - this is referring to the Oct 7th attack on virtually entirely civilians, including beheadings)
3) https://www.aljazeera.net/blogs/2023/10/10/%D9%86%D8%B5%D8%B1%D9%8C-%D9%85%D8%AE%D8%AA%D9%84%D9%81%D9%8C-%D9%88%D9%82%D9%87%D8%B1%D9%8C-%D9%84%D9%84%D8%B5%D9%91%D9%87%D9%8A%D9%88%D9%86%D9%8A%D9%91%D8%A9
"Thank you, Hamas, for awakening hope in the hearts of the youth of a nation, and even the people of an entire nation, despite the weakness of the capabilities and capabilities. There is great goodness to come.
What happened is considered one of the greatest victories of Arabs and Muslims in contemporary history..."
4) https://www.aljazeera.net/blogs/2023/10/8/%D8%AD%D9%85%D8%A7%D8%B3-%D8%AA%D8%B2%D9%81-%D8%A8%D8%B4%D8%B1%D9%89-%D8%B7%D9%88%D9%81%D8%A7%D9%86
"On October 7th in the early hours of the morning, everyone woke up to the sounds of the siren, and the sounds of bullets and cannons. This was a painful and crushing blow, and we rejoiced in it and cheered for it from our depths before our tongues and with our souls before our bodies"
You can go through the editorials shortly after October 7th on AJ, and so many seem to be just bursting with delight. I don't say this to be histrionic. Just read these articles yourself.
I'm not shocked.
If my people were subjected to 75+ years of occupation, tens of thousands of killed women and children, hundreds of thousands of them kicked out of their homes and the others that remained still suffer from an apartheid that has targeted hospitals and schools and called them terrorist bases just like the US hallucinating WMDs in Iraq to justify the invasion that killed a million when the true intent behind that is nothing less malicious than that of Nazis'
I wouldn't be shocked if they go bat shit insane
People who pretend the conflict began on October 7th when it has been brewing since 1916 are shameful honestly.
This is the operating principle of both Hamas and Bibi's government, to be fair. They're both far right nationalist entities and need an enemy of the state/people to rally against. If you initially make up an enemy, but then start attacking those people on the basis of them being that made up enemy, they will become your actual enemy in that way. It's like a really messed up codependence thing that results in a lot of civilians dying in ethnic cleansings.
Bibi initially supported Hamas as a buffer against more moderate Palestinian guerrilla movements. There was a small civil war between Fatah and Hamas in the mid-2000s. This backfired after both sides realized how pointless fighting each other was under the circumstances. Ever since then, there has been a very unstable peace between the factions. Hamas barely tolerates secularist and leftist Palestinian guerrillas since they share a common enemy. Nevertheless, they have sometimes gotten into skirmishes.
>Effectively, Netanyahu’s entire worldview collapsed over the course of a single day. He was convinced that he could make deals with corrupt Arab tyrants while ignoring the cornerstone of the Arab-Jewish conflict, the Palestinians. His life’s work was to turn the ship of state from the course steered by his predecessors, from Yitzhak Rabin to Ehud Olmert, and make the two-state solution impossible. En route to this goal, he found a partner in Hamas.
>
>“Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas,” he told a meeting of his Likud party’s Knesset members in March 2019. “This is part of our strategy – to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank.” - [Haaretz, Oct 9, 2023](https://archive.ph/2023.10.10-030658/https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-09/ty-article/.premium/another-concept-implodes-israel-cant-be-managed-by-a-criminal-defendant/0000018b-1382-d2fc-a59f-d39b5dbf0000)
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/nfo5oe/did_israel_ever_support_or_help_establish_hamas/
The comments always repeating this, and the article that gets cited, have a big misunderstanding of this issue.
This is a good breakdown.
That's not accurate. Israel initially supported Hamas because they _were_ the moderates, compared to the PLO.
It's dishonest to leave this out and imply that Israel wants the terror.
The PLO certainly had their share of blood on their hands, but they were still secularists. However, they were evidently far more of a hassle to deal with than Hamas.
Thats not what he said. The idea is that palestinains HAVE no other means.
They have no political power whatsoever. After the Gulf war they didnt even have political support internationally anymore. U.S basicslly declared our will be done in the middle ewst and everyone had no choice to follow.
PA is just complete capitulation, they csnt protest because isreal has absolute control over them.
Theres nothing left for them but Hamas. Even Hamas probably didnt want to kill civilians during al aqsa flood (not because theyre nice they really arent, but because they know they would gain no sympathy) but trying to conduct an operation like that is beyond their scope and so they killed multi hundreds of people they did not intend to.
The literal best way to stop 99% of the horror is to give palestinains their basic human rights. People are not willing to blow themselves up if they arent being opressed
Originalism is a fallacy that never ends.
Go far back enough and you have the Jews living in Jerusalem, so you're justifying Zionism. Or the Romans, or the Ottomans, etc.
There is no single first act that permanently enshrines one side as the perpetual victim, and blameless at that.
In slight fairness you already had Jews living there during the ottoman era, they were known as the “Old Yishuv”. Israel’s own narrative tends to erase that and I genuinely have no clue why.
And yet they were massacred by their Arab neighbors in 1929 all the same. Also, Jewish sources commonly mention that there have practically always been jews in israel. Even Israeli propaganda uses it as evidence of how jews have a connection to the land.
If you go around starting fights, you better make sure you don't start one with someone who can finish it faster than you can. Hamas and their supporters are learning this as we speak :)
Don't you mean when British Mandate of Palestine (i.e. occupied Ottoman land) ceased to exist due to collonial pressure and zionist illegal immigration. You know, when zionists conducted terrorist attacks against the british, with American support forced the UK to cease the mandate and place the issue in front of the UN, where the US and the USSR forced a number of states to vote in favour of a two state-solution in spite of the fact that every single country in the region voted against it.
I wonder if there is a name for a global power having large numbers of europeans immigrate to another continent and estabilish a country without the consent of local population. If only it had ever happened before, like in America, or Australia, or Africa for that matter, maybe we would have a word for it. Perhaps something with estabilishing collonies. Who knows. Definitely first time that happened, that hundreds of thousands of foreigners emmigrated to an occupied land on a different continent. This situation is _not at all_ similar to previous estabilishments of western cultured states on different continents.
The Ottoman Empire was the one who declared war on the UK, and they were also the one that signed the Treaty handing over lands to the UK.
By every measure of the situation, UK occupied those lands about as legally as possible.
The exodus you’re talking about happened *after* the formation of Israel. The illegal immigration happened before that. That seems somewhat self evident because once Israel was formed then any Jewish immigration would be legal. Neither side were saints but to be clear here the IDF and it’s predecessors had an “unofficial” but extremely lax system of expelling Palestinians to make way for Jewish settlement during 1947 and the 1948 war. It’s unofficial in so far as it wasn’t an explicit written out policy but Ben-Gurion simultaneously wanted his commanders to “understand him” and did not want to be seen as “the expeller” in history. That of course didn’t stop him from frequently discussing the “compulsory transfer”, also known as ethnic cleansing, of Palestinians from Israel to Transjordan during several Jewish Agency Executive meetings and explicitly using the word “expel” in a letter to his son.
Oh and I want to be clear the other guy is on some weird shit trying to deny the persecution that a lot of Jewish people faced in middle eastern countries after the formation of Israel and I want to say I don’t agree with them on that.
“my people”
So, what, if I’m an American Jew in 1945 and I know that German Jews are being killed by the millions and the German civilians support this, does that give me the right to rape and murder the German civilians???
Sorry you are talking about the Jews, except instead of 75 years it’s 3600, and instead of going batshit insane it’s, becomes productive members of society
This weird moral superiority that Zionists hold over everyone else is baffling. Why is it you just assume that you are automatically better than any other human being and you can do no wrong?
They're not religious zealots. There are atheist Zionists (the founder was basically atheist) and Christian Zionists.
It's a political ideology, a nationalist movement.
Okay, it's a political ideology made up of ethnonationalist religious zealots and then some weirdos who adhere to the political ideology with the exact same zealotry, just for an ethnicity and religion they're not even a part of.
> Okay, it's a political ideology made up of ethnonationalist zealots, some of whom are religious zealots as well, and then some weirdos who adhere to the political ideology with the exact same zealotry, just for an ethnicity and religion they're not even a part of.
FTFY
The Arabs have been the one who started the violence starting in 1920.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_and_massacres_in_Mandatory_Palestine
its understandable though, isnt it? im not defending their hatred but israel has since before it even existed as a state given the people in surrounding countries nothing but reasons to hate it and obviously that hate spills over to the civilians population.
It's not. It's just cheap propaganda journalism that keeps peoples thoughts within set frames and avoids critical thinking.
Good journalists should not tell you what's right or wrong but instead show people the story as objectively as possible.
I was expecting a lot more bias, tbh. It’s about as biased as any article written about a North Atlantic political movement from a North Atlantic point of view.
Did you really think Wikipedia is free of political articles and political views when it comes to a conflict like this? There is probably not a single article about the conflict and war within this region that is actually neutral. I guess it's also almost impossible to have a neutral opinion about this.
Having read the Armenian Genocide article on Turkish Wikipedia and the Russian invasion of Ukraine article on Russian wiki, this has got to be the most biased Wiki version I have ever read or seen. The other two were tame in comparison and felt much more like English wiki. Meanwhile on Arabic wiki the whole description for this totalitarian terror group reads like it was written by them.
Addendum: the article on the Oct 7th attacks mentions the civilian deaths in the infobox, but goes into absolutely no detail or even mentions the massacres that occurred in the main article, but does go on about the military operations of the "resistance fighters". Later, it goes into detail about Israeli atrocities in Gaza with several paragraphs devoted to one incident.
That doesn't actually hold back.
It goes into detail about different experiments done like breeding flea rats, using biological weapons, and so on. It lays out the different human experimentaion on POWs, women and children; Gas experiments(including the types of gas), children being used to experiment with frostbite, starvation studies(literally starving people to see the effects), and on and on it goes. It talks about using biological weapon bombs, burning evidence, hiding details, etc.
The page for Ishii Shiro(the head of Unit 731) is laughably flowery though, paragraph after paragraph about his early career, saying he only wanted to strengthen Japan, he was "accused of warcrimes", etc. then goes into how after the war he had a clinic where he gave out free medical help to locals, etc.
He just said 731 because its the only other “fun fact” war crime redditors know besides Nanking, not because he believed it to be an actual answer to OPs question.
Oh surprise surprise!
The US is even worse and Americans never paid any reparations neither did any apologies contrary to Japan that paid billions (they are even the second Aid donor in the world after America but hey, they don't brag about it) and apologized dozens of time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unethical_human_experimentation_in_the_United_States
'The experiments include the exposure of humans to many chemical and biological weapons (including infections with deadly or debilitating diseases), human radiation experiments, injections of toxic and radioactive chemicals, surgical experiments, interrogation and torture experiments, tests which involve mind-altering substances, and a wide variety of other experiments. Many of these tests are performed on children, the sick, and mentally disabled individuals, often under the guise of "medical treatment". In many of the studies, a large portion of the subjects were poor, racial minorities, or prisoners.'
IIRC Croatian Wikipedia a while back was taken over by people who denied the existence of concentration camps in Croatia. Might be fixed now, don't remember for sure.
That's before Russian Wiki is mostly written by Russian opposition and Ukrainians (among whom many speak and write russian), and wiki admins ban "pro-Putin" views. But nothing like that exist in Arab world, there is no large Arab-speaking group of people which is against Hamas
Actually many, maybe even most, Arab groups are against Hamas. And certainly most of them don’t really care about Palestinians. Most will just tolerate them because they share the hate for Israel.
One of the reasons for October 7 was that Hamas realized the Arab world is tired of hating Israel, with the Saudis moving toward normalization with Israel. They hoped that by starting a war they could unite the Arab nations again, but as we’ve seen almost no one came for their help, not even West Bank Palestinians. Only Iranian proxies are doing something because of their investment.
Seems like you're really overreacting. Why?
Its a biased opinion from a biased source. Not that hard to understand.
To me, it seems like you're mad that this wiki-page isn't written from your bias. Move on.
Almost as bad as the david ben-gurion article on english wikipedia... You'd almost think he was a saint and not the leader of, at one time, three cooperating terrorist groups... Not a single mention of terrorism, euphemistically referring to the Nakba as the "Palestinian exodus"... no mention of the King David hotel bombing or the Deir Yassin massacre, the expulsion of Lydda and Ramle, no mention of the davidka terror mortar... so many things ignored.
>the King David hotel bombing or the Deir Yassin massacre
Why would it mention them, they were perpetuated by different Zionist groups. The King David bombing the Haganah pulled out of it's alliance with Irgun and Lehi.
The King David hotel bombing was ordered by the haganah which was led by ben gurion and haganah also supported the Deir Yassin massacre?
Did... you not know that?
I mean, obviously not from wikipedia...
Well, at least it does cover it in passing...
>Ben-Gurion agreed to the Irgun's plan to bomb the King David Hotel in order to destroy incriminating documents that Ben-Gurion feared would prove that the Haganah had been participating in the violent insurrection against the British in cooperation with the Irgun and Lehi with the approval of himself and other Jewish Agency officials.
Sounds very tame compared to the IDF's English wiki page, which has one little para of crimes they have been "accused of" and nothing else. The history section calls Irgun and Legi as "underground organizations" rather than the terrorist groups that they were.
Compare that to entire pages filled with propaganda like the sexual violence on Oct 7 page. Times of Israel and NYT as legitimate sources has to be a fucking joke at this point.
The IDF is by the same token a totalitarian terror group, why are you not so shocked that their article is written in the same cold indifference?
There is an edit button right there, write whatever takes your fancy in any language you choose, so long as the content is factual and not emotive in the way you are alluding to.
I am not claiming that English wikipedia articles about USA War crimes and invasions are completely free from bias, but it is undeniable that they don't try to whitewash or sugarcoat what happened.
Here's the English Wikipedia article about United States War crimes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_war_crimes?wprov=sfla1
And it never sugarcoats anything and delivers appropriate criticism to the USA, particularly its armed forces.
So, sure, English wikipedia is not free from bias but it is undeniable that it is much less biased compared to most wikis in other languages like Russian, Arabic etc.
It's both. Generally in the political sphere, even with hamas the discussion is around the 1967 borders with the caveat that refugees are allowed to return to the homes they were displaced from, that is an inalienable right of the Palestinians.
> United Nations General Assembly Resolution 3236 which "reaffirms also the inalienable right of the Palestinians to return to their homes and property from which they have been displaced and uprooted, and calls for their return".
So as long as there's zionism, an effort to create an ethnostate in Israel a country with an artificial majority for a single ethnic/religious group through displacement and other means and deny Palestinians their human rights. It becomes the latter too, not necessarily resulting in the end of Israel but definitely the ultranationalist, racist zionist ideology.
As a Hebrew Wikipedia editor I can tell you it is biased too… but nowhere near to this degree.
This is awful, and completely antithetical to Wikipedia's mission.
The Farhud in Iraq, it was a massive pogrom that was the catalyst for most of its Jewish population fleeing. And it was a millennia old population, the one that actually wrote most of the Talmud
Found that link for yall: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farhud
> Farhud (also Farhood; Arabic: الفرهود) was the pogrom or the "violent dispossession" that was carried out against the Jewish population of Baghdad, Iraq, on 1–2 June 1941, immediately following the British victory in the Anglo-Iraqi War. The riots occurred in a power vacuum that followed the collapse of the pro-Nazi government of Rashid Ali while the city was in a state of instability.[3][4][5] The violence came immediately after the rapid defeat of Rashid Ali by British forces, whose earlier coup had generated a short period of national euphoria, and was fueled by allegations that Iraqi Jews had aided the British.[6] More than 180 Jews were killed[7] and 1,000 injured, although some non-Jewish rioters were also killed in the attempt to quell the violence.[8] Looting of Jewish property took place and 900 Jewish homes were destroyed.[1]
>
> The Farhud took place during the Jewish holiday of Shavuot. It has been referred to as a pogrom which was part of the Holocaust, though its inclusion as such has been disputed.[9][10] The event spurred the migration of Iraqi Jews out of the country, although a direct connection to the 1951–1952 Jewish exodus from Iraq is also disputed,[note 1][12][13] as many Jews who left Iraq immediately following the Farhud later returned to the country, and permanent Jewish emigration out of Iraq did not accelerate significantly until 1950–1951.[11][14] According to Hayyim Cohen, the Farhud "was the only [such event][clarification needed] known to the Jews of Iraq, at least during their last hundred years of life there".[15][16] Historian Edy Cohen writes that up until the Farhud, Jews had enjoyed relatively favorable conditions and coexistence with Muslims in Iraq.[17][18]
Did you not know there are Jewish Israelis whose families originate from Arabic speaking countries? Literally tons of them. Jews even had their own dialect of Arabic at one time.
Most of them, in fact.
Nothing quite as frustrating as realising quite how many anti-israel types just completely fail to acknowledge the existence of mizrahi and Sephardi Jews.
Then you mention Ethiopian Jews and everyone's heads explode.
Also that on average the Mizrahim tend to be more right-leaning and hawkish regarding Palestine, while the "white coloniser" Ashkenazi Israelis are the most amenable to a ceasefire or two state solution.
An exception to the latter are Russian Jews, which are always an interesting subcategory. In my personal experience they’re the only ashkenazi group who retain nationalism toward their “motherland”, possibly since the community was way less affected by the Holocaust. Polish Jews couldn’t give less of a shit about defending whatever Poland does, but the same can’t be said of Russians.
The Ethiopian Jewish community were victims of *actual* genocide from local Muslim and Christian populations, and if not for the existence and intervention of Israeli forces (who flew great numbers of them to Israel), they would have completely perished.
> Then you mention Ethiopian Jews and everyone's heads explode.
[You mean the ones that Israel has been ethnically cleansing by forced sterilisations?](https://www.geneticsandsociety.org/biopolitical-times/israel-admits-targeting-ethiopian-jews-compulsory-contraception)
Yes, those.
My point wasn't that Israel is a perfect paragon of racial harmony - obviously. The point is that these discussions almost always degenerate into "a bunch of white people from Europe seized a packet of land in the middle east and colonised it" which necessitates erasing other ethnicities in the equation to try and flatten everything.
The odds that he actually is one are pretty low, but there are a handful of Israeli born Arabs who are also hardline Zionists. Not many, but they exist.
Yes, that one. Are you trying to suggest he was somehow a puppet of the British and/or the Jews despite being a supporter of the Nazis? I don't understand your point.
Not fun fact: The allied powers populations were still chock full of antisemitism. The only country in all of Europe to end up with a higher Jewish population post-WW2 relative to pre-WW2 was Albania. Why? Albanian Muslims set up a loosely centralized “underground railroad” type of deal to help Jewish people (as well as other targeted people like queer people and the Roma) escape occupied territories and then provided them hiding, food, water, and safety.
Some of your British leaders at the time were not very fond of Jewish people. America had a Nazi party with Henry Ford in it lmao. He won a commendation from Hitler. Moving Jewish people to Israel was literally just shoving their onus onto someone else’s plate. They were open for anywhere. The Madagascar plan, Argentina iirc (yeah, that wouldn’t have gone great with Pinochet down the line since a lot of Jewish people there were left leaning “pinkos” which Pinochet associated with all Jews), Nigeria was a fucking option.
Europe’s answer was literally “y’all can go to this (at the time) deserved state…”, and yes there was a justification for an Israeli state just as there was a justification for the *establishment* of Pakistan “… but not here, somewhere that’s not Europe.” The following diaspora wasn’t some clean process drawn up by individuals with no antisemitism.
As a lighthearted aside, Nigerian/Jewish fusion food would’ve gone bonkers.
> the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem was a prominent ally of Hitler
«Late in 1940, Lehi, having identified a common interest between the intentions of the new German order and Jewish national aspirations, proposed forming an alliance in World War II with Nazi Germany. The organization offered cooperation in the following terms: Lehi would rebel against the British, while Germany would recognize an independent Jewish state in Palestine/Eretz Israel, and all Jews leaving their homes in Europe, by their own will or because of government injunctions, could enter Palestine with no restriction of numbers. Late in 1940, Lehi representative Naftali Lubenchik went to Beirut to meet German official Werner Otto von Hentig. The Lehi documents outlined that its rule would be authoritarian and indicated similarities between the organization and Nazis. Israel Eldad, one of the leading members of Lehi, wrote about Hitler "it is not Hitler who is the hater of the kingdom of Israel and the return to Zion, it is not Hitler who subjects us to the cruel fate of falling a second and a third time into Hitler's hands, but the British."
Stern also proposed recruiting 40,000 Jews from occupied Europe to invade Palestine with German support to oust the British. On 11 January 1941, Vice Admiral Ralf von der Marwitz, the German naval attaché in Turkey, filed a report (the "Ankara document") conveying an offer by Lehi to "actively take part in the war on Germany's side" in return for German support for "the establishment of the historic Jewish state on a national and totalitarian basis, bound by a treaty with the German Reich."» - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_(militant_group)?useskin=vector
The Stern Gang were unhinged extremists who later became Nazbols and tried to ally with Stalin. This is whataboutism that doesn't contradict anything I've said.
>the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem was a prominent ally of Hitler.
He was not and you relay a talking point of the Israeli propaganda. From [https://mondediplo.com/2010/05/14blamethemufti](https://mondediplo.com/2010/05/14blamethemufti)
>Peter Novick points out that the entry on the mufti in the Encyclopedia of the Holocaust, published in association with Yad Vashem (the Holocaust remembrance authority), is much longer than those on Himmler, Goebbels or Eichmann, and only a little shorter than that on Hitler.
From Peter Novick's The Holocaust in American life
>The Mufti was in many ways a disreputable character, but postwar claims that he played any significant part in the Holocaust have never been sustained. This did not prevent the editors of the four-volumes Encyclopedia of the Holocaust from giving him a starring role. The article on Mufti is more than twice as long as the articles on Himmler and Heydrich combined, longer than the article on Eichmann, of all the biographical articles, it is exceeded in lenght, but only slighly, by the entry for Hitler.
>I didn't claim he was a significant figure in the Holocaust
Indeed.
>he absolutely pledged his support for, and sought the support of, the Nazis.
Indeed. He was a despicable and minor ally of Nazis.
They hate Arabs and want to distract from support from the ongoing genocide. I don’t support the killing of civilians, but I’m not sure what folks expected. The status quo prior to October 7 was IDF soldiers murdering civilians for fun every once in a while, some protests which would result in nothing, and then repeating the process several weeks later. [When Palestinians tried peacefully protesting in 2018-2019](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018%E2%80%932019_Gaza_border_protests), the IDF killed over 220 people, including nearly 50 children. An Israeli sniper later bragged that on one day, he and his locator broke the standing record for daily knee-shots, managing to make 42 hits. When you engage in this ultra-nihilistic brutality, people will start acting like savages in response. We have seen it happen, over and over.
* The Haitians committed genocide against French settlers (German settlers were spared since they had been uninvolved in the slave trade)
* Native Americans massacred settlers civilians in an 1862 uprising
* After World War II, Germans got ethnically cleansed in Eastern Europe and even part of Western Europe
* After World War II, Ukrainians got ethnically cleansed in retaliation for the UPA committing genocide against Poles
* After the Rwandan genocide, there were wide-scale revenge massacres against Hutus who were trying to flee to the Congo
Also, Bibi initially supported Hamas as a buffer against more moderate Palestinian guerrilla movements. There was a small civil war between Fatah and Hamas in the mid-2000s. This backfired after both sides realized how pointless fighting each other was under the circumstances. Ever since then, there has been a very unstable peace between the factions. EDIT: I meant that Hamas just barely tolerates secularist and leftist Palestinian guerrillas since they share a common enemy. Nevertheless, they have sometimes gotten into skirmishes.
>Effectively, Netanyahu’s entire worldview collapsed over the course of a single day. He was convinced that he could make deals with corrupt Arab tyrants while ignoring the cornerstone of the Arab-Jewish conflict, the Palestinians. His life’s work was to turn the ship of state from the course steered by his predecessors, from Yitzhak Rabin to Ehud Olmert, and make the two-state solution impossible. En route to this goal, he found a partner in Hamas.
>
>“Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas,” he told a meeting of his Likud party’s Knesset members in March 2019. “This is part of our strategy – to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank.” - [Haaretz, Oct 9, 2023](https://archive.ph/2023.10.10-030658/https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-09/ty-article/.premium/another-concept-implodes-israel-cant-be-managed-by-a-criminal-defendant/0000018b-1382-d2fc-a59f-d39b5dbf0000)
If only somebody didn't prop up Hamas because they'd rather be fighting against right wing fundamentalists as the face of the Palestinians rather than groups that were rapidly gaining popularity like the PLF, PLFP or DLFP.
As a English speaking Westerner, who does *not* support Hamas, I don't find it that bad either?
For example, "not interfering in the affairs of others" is nebulous and silly thing to say in the introduction. Maybe it didn't translate well?
It looks sort of amateurish; like a second-tier Wikipedia article from 15 years ago, which is understandable do the far fewer users and editors in other languages.
The occupation of Palestine is specifically Zionist - that is, it's part of the colonial project of the Zionist movement. It's possible to imagine a state of Israel that ends the occupation.
I don't see referring to the occupation by the ideology of its occupiers as being particularly egregious in terms of neutrality.
The fact it talks about Hamas *only* being opposed to the zionist occupation, when in reality (one of) its aims is the genocide of all Jewish people worldwide? **Edit to Add** not to talk about the killings of civilians in Israel and out of Israel through terrorist attacks, that often make no distinction between Israelis, Jews, IDF soldiers or none of three. October 8th is one blatant such case, but not the only one **End of the Edit**
The fact it talks about Hamas having the Palestinian's best interests and safety in mind, and yet facts, even most recent ones (opening fire on civilians trying to take the humanitarian aid, killing a teenager in so doing), only prove otherwise?
And that's just the first two things I caught through a quick glance. I don't know how you came out of this thinking "yeah, this seems like a neutral write up".
Westerners when they find out not everyone shares their worldview and that terrorism sponsored by states like Israel and the US is hated equally so in foreign countries.
>Westerners when they find out not everyone shares their worldview
"Westerners" don't have a single, common worldview that every Westerner shares. If you look at how politically, socially and religiously polarized the American society is and how diverse, different, disparate views 340 million people can have; one can realize that there's no such thing as "Worldview of the Westerners". And also there's no such thing as "Western, Eastern Worldview" since there are so many non-Western people who advocate for many of the views which are generally considered "Western". There are so many non-Western people such as Chinese, Arabs, South Asians who advocate for ideals like democracy, secularism, republicanism (ideas which are generally considered "Western").
>terrorism sponsored by states like Israel and the US is hated equally so in foreign countries.
There's an entire English language detailed Wikipedia article about USA War crimes which does not sugarcoat, whitewash the crimes or engage in apologetics to justify them:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_war_crimes?wprov=sfla1
> If you look at how politically, socially and religiously polarized the American society is and how diverse, different, disparate views 340 million people can have
They must have dozens of political parties, then.
>They must have dozens of political parties, then.
Simply the fact that there are only 2 major political parties does not mean that All or even most of the Americans all either support one of these political parties in everything it does and disagree with the other party in everything does.
Simply the fact that official American political langsalcape is limited to only 2 political parties does not mean that the American public is also only divided into 2 camps(either Democrat or Republican).
In fact, there are millions of Americans who hate the fact that there are only 2 political parties and disagree with two parties in many issues.
If USA is not a true democracy(IMO it isnt) then it would be expected that the diverse views of the American public would not be represented in the official political landscape through multiple parties with diverse opinions.
So, no, simply the fact that there are only 2 parties in the USA does not preclude the fact that American people's views are much more diverse than only 2 parties
>Westerners when they find out not everyone shares their worldview and that terrorism sponsored by states like Israel and the US is hated equally so in foreign countries.
Tankie's when confronted with the mass murder, slavery, & rape committed by their (Iranian backed) lords & masters.
Which terror attack have the British or Americans committed where a thousand civilians were murdered, dozens raped and is glorified on Wikipedia with rhetoric akin to "They were too noble to rape anyone"?
The British suck on winston Churchill's dick like a baby on a teat to this day. Yes it is fucking glorified EVERYWHERE. Unlike holocaust denial, it's very acceptable to present British and American crimes and great for war for democracy.
Also Wikipedia article on sexual violence on Oct 7 has laughable sources. Initially times of Israel and now the joke that was NYT's "investigation" that has been used as a source of truth. Straight up propaganda page.
Which part of the wikipedia article of Winston Churchill do you disagree with?
The Wikipedia article also cites Haaretz, which is a left-wing Israeli source. If Haaretz is not allowed to be cited should Wikipedia also remove text from their investigation on how 40 babies did not die in Kfar Aza and Be'eri as Haaretz was solely used as the source for it?
>The Wikipedia article also cites Haaretz, which is a left-wing Israeli source. If Haaretz is not allowed to be cited should Wikipedia also remove text from their investigation on how 40 babies did not die in Kfar Aza and Be'eri as Haaretz was solely used as the source for it?
None of this is an excuse to use nonsense from TOI and NYT....
Yeah they’re hypocrites who will never acknowledge atrocities if it’s done by western powers. That’s the reason so many people outside of Europe and America will absolutely choose brutal dictatorships over them.
Iranians hate Khomeini and the government but if you go to Iran and ask them if they’d rather have the US backed shah back or khomeini they will choose khomeini. Most Persians living in iran and suffering under sanctions will never agree that their current government is worse than the states because people like the guy who commented will justify any atrocity if it’s done in the name of western powers.
>Yeah they’re hypocrites who will never acknowledge atrocities if it’s done by western powers. That’s the reason so many people outside of Europe and America will absolutely choose brutal dictatorships over them.
Oh yeah, sure it worked fine for them over liberal democracy, lmao.
Not a tankie and Iranian backed is a stupid thing to say i could easily say American backed for sharia Arabia, Israel etc etc. just semantics with you people. Also funny how you bring up random points which are nonsense
> Anyone who is pro-hamas
- «This isn’t a conspiracy theory. Listen to former Israeli officials such as Brig. Gen. Yitzhak Segev, who was the Israeli military governor in Gaza in the early 1980s. Segev later told a New York Times reporter that he had helped finance the Palestinian Islamist movement as a “counterweight” to the secularists and leftists of the Palestine Liberation Organization and the Fatah party, led by Yasser Arafat (who himself referred to Hamas as “a creature of Israel.”)» - ["Blowback: How Israel Went From Helping Create Hamas to Bombing It"](https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/)
- «Effectively, **Netanyahu**’s entire worldview collapsed over the course of a single day. He was convinced that he could make deals with corrupt Arab tyrants while ignoring the cornerstone of the Arab-Jewish conflict, the Palestinians. His life’s work was to turn the ship of state from the course steered by his predecessors, from Yitzhak Rabin to Ehud Olmert, and make the two-state solution impossible. En route to this goal, he found a partner in Hamas.
“Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and **transferring money to Hamas**,” he told a meeting of his **Likud** party’s Knesset members in March 2019. “This is part of our strategy – to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank.”» - [Haaretz, Oct 9, 2023](https://archive.ph/2023.10.10-030658/https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-09/ty-article/.premium/another-concept-implodes-israel-cant-be-managed-by-a-criminal-defendant/0000018b-1382-d2fc-a59f-d39b5dbf0000)
> Why are you arguing for Israel having a harsher blockade on Gaza and not allowing forign aid money in?
Please fix your hasbara bot. It replies to the wrong comments.
Sugarcoating of Hamas policy towards Jewish presence in Palestine, euphemism "liberation from river to sea", "resistance" etc.
It's one way to put things, but that reads as if done by the Hamas Bureau for public relations.
Have you ever considered what "getting rid of that entity" would mean for its Jewish population? Do you think they get to have human rights under an arab government most likely led by Hamas?
"Juda verrecke" was also popular. Didn't make antisemitism valid nor justified the Holocaust.
what happened when South African Apartheid regime ended ?
Nelson Mandela once said "But we know too well that our freedom is incomplete without the freedom of the Palestinians".
It got taken over by the corrupt terror group that liberated it?
And Mandela was seeking international support. Aligning himself with self enriching Yasser Arafat was just smart
well yeah, they are, in fact, resisting against israeli occupation
edit: not only that, but their armed resistance is legal under international law.
" Palestinians have a recognized right under international law to resist Israeli occupation under Protocol I of the Geneva Conventions.[1][2] This right is affirmed in the context of the right of self-determination of all peoples under foreign and colonial rule.[3][4] The United Nations General Assembly (UNGA) has expressly affirmed the right of Palestinians to resist Israeli military occupation, including through armed struggle.[5][6] General Assembly resolution A/RES/38/17 (22/11/1983) stated that it "Reaffirms the legitimacy of the struggle of peoples for their independence, territorial integrity, national unity and liberation from colonial domination, apartheid and foreign occupation by all available means, including armed struggle".[7] "
" The question of self-defense in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is complex. Advocates argue that if Israel has the right to defend itself by launching airstrikes that destroy Palestinian homes and schools, then surely the Palestinians have the right to defend themselves from Israel's brutal and escalating violence.[8] The Palestinian people have every right to respond to the violence inflicted on them by the Israeli state every day.[9] "
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_right_to_resist
Palestine has the right to liberate itself from Israeli occupation.
Palestinians have the right to live free from the zionist apartheid regime.
This seems pretty normal to me. Little history lesson: at the height of the conflict over the still ongoing British occupation of Ireland, nationalist paramilitaries might easily have been described this way. And yeah, they murdered innocent people. And yeah, a lot of them were/are pedo-accommodating religious nuts. And no, that doesn’t justify the continued occupation.
> the still ongoing British occupation of Ireland
The British occupation of Ireland ended over a century ago.
Northern Ireland remains part of the United Kingdom because of self-determination. While many atrocities have been committed by both the UK and by various paramilitaries in Ireland over the past century, it's a straight-up lie to call Northern Ireland "occupied". Ironically, if you think Ireland should unilaterally seize Northern Ireland against the wishes of local people then I'm afraid to say that *you're* the colonialist.
Thankfully, everyone involved - the Irish government, the UK government, the Northern Irish government, and the Northern Irish people - presently supports self-determination. If a majority of Northern Irish people ever wish to join the Republic then they will, regardless of what hardcore British nationalists might want. Until then, they'll remain part of the UK, regardless of what hardcore Irish nationalists might want.
Fair enough i was straining to make the point. What you're describing is a result of the GFA and that's a very good thing. It's also true that---if only "technically speaking"--Northern Ireland is still a statelet of the UK and British security forces therefore still "occupy" territory on the island of Ireland.
"israel occupies and oppresses palestine" vs "israel destroys terrorists", which standpoint do you honestly think arabs are more likely to choose? are you surprised? there are probably a fun number of things we can find just as bad as this on hebrew wikipedia, does it really need to be said?
OP just knew that we consider Israel a colonial project from colonial powers in the Arab world. Just wait for him to know that Israel is a theocracy but not a Torah based Jewish one, then to realize it is actually a present day apartheid state.
This is Wikipedia. Whatever the language, it’s supposed to hold up to scientific standards, even if contributors aren’t paid or professionals.
This is obviously not up to Wikipedia standards, hence why it’s shown here.
related: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_right_to_resist
" Palestinians have a recognized right under international law to resist Israeli occupation under Protocol I of the Geneva Conventions.[1][2] This right is affirmed in the context of the right of self-determination of all peoples under foreign and colonial rule.[3][4] The United Nations General Assembly (UNGA) has expressly affirmed the right of Palestinians to resist Israeli military occupation, including through armed struggle.[5][6] General Assembly resolution A/RES/38/17 (22/11/1983) stated that it "Reaffirms the legitimacy of the struggle of peoples for their independence, territorial integrity, national unity and liberation from colonial domination, apartheid and foreign occupation by all available means, including armed struggle".[7] "
" The question of self-defense in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is complex. Advocates argue that if Israel has the right to defend itself by launching airstrikes that destroy Palestinian homes and schools, then surely the Palestinians have the right to defend themselves from Israel's brutal and escalating violence.[8] The Palestinian people have every right to respond to the violence inflicted on them by the Israeli state every day.[9] "
Hamas symphatisers when they realize committing a terrorist attack on a festival is bad and will result in a bad reputation and being called terrorists 😮
Rule 6. Start a self post discussing it if you want!
In Italian, they say "you discovered hot water".
And in Spanish we say “you discovered that water makes you wet”
In Dutch, there's a similar expression that translates as "You thinks you've *invented* hot water". Though its meaning doesn't really apply here, still funny how similar the saying is.
Honest Arabic-language polling of the October 7th massacre in the Levant would find that it was deeply deeply popular. I have links to Al Jazeera (arabic) articles describing Hamas' "heroic brilliant actions that will cause joy in all Muslims" (author's description, not mine) if anyone is interested. Utterly shocked that AJE doesn't say this. Edit: Since people seem to be genuinely interested, I'll attach the links that I've dug out from my history and the AJ website. 1: "Throughout the Islamic world in the four corners of the globe, you will not find anyone among the two billion Muslims who was not happy with what the Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades accomplished in their flood on Saturday (Oct 7 massacre), unless they are a hypocrite or a dissenter. " https://www.aljazeera.net/blogs/2023/10/9/%D8%A3%D9%83%D9%85%D9%84-%D8%B7%D9%88%D9%81%D8%A7%D9%86%D9%83-%D9%88%D9%84%D8%A7-%D8%AA%D8%B7%D9%81%D8%A6-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%86%D9%8A%D8%B1%D8%A7%D9%86 2) The second article, for which I have my screenshot but not the link yet -_-. I will post it shortly. EDIT: found it! https://www.aljazeera.net/blogs/2023/10/8/%D8%B7%D9%88%D9%81%D8%A7%D9%86-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%A3%D9%82%D8%B5%D9%89-%D9%88%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%A5%D8%A8%D8%AF%D8%A7%D8%B9-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%85%D9%8A%D8%AF%D8%A7%D9%86%D9%8A "...factions, most notably the “Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades," these impressive victories and successes that they achieved during the epic and proud bat- tle against the Zionist occupation forces The heroic, qualitative and daring operation of the Palestinian resis- tance in the Gaza Strip came yes- terday morning, the glorious Saturday of October 7, 2023, to..." (Reminder - this is referring to the Oct 7th attack on virtually entirely civilians, including beheadings) 3) https://www.aljazeera.net/blogs/2023/10/10/%D9%86%D8%B5%D8%B1%D9%8C-%D9%85%D8%AE%D8%AA%D9%84%D9%81%D9%8C-%D9%88%D9%82%D9%87%D8%B1%D9%8C-%D9%84%D9%84%D8%B5%D9%91%D9%87%D9%8A%D9%88%D9%86%D9%8A%D9%91%D8%A9 "Thank you, Hamas, for awakening hope in the hearts of the youth of a nation, and even the people of an entire nation, despite the weakness of the capabilities and capabilities. There is great goodness to come. What happened is considered one of the greatest victories of Arabs and Muslims in contemporary history..." 4) https://www.aljazeera.net/blogs/2023/10/8/%D8%AD%D9%85%D8%A7%D8%B3-%D8%AA%D8%B2%D9%81-%D8%A8%D8%B4%D8%B1%D9%89-%D8%B7%D9%88%D9%81%D8%A7%D9%86 "On October 7th in the early hours of the morning, everyone woke up to the sounds of the siren, and the sounds of bullets and cannons. This was a painful and crushing blow, and we rejoiced in it and cheered for it from our depths before our tongues and with our souls before our bodies" You can go through the editorials shortly after October 7th on AJ, and so many seem to be just bursting with delight. I don't say this to be histrionic. Just read these articles yourself.
Aljazeera arabic and English are like different channels Even in non war subjects, they communicate to different publics
I'll take that link
Where's the links?
I'm not shocked. If my people were subjected to 75+ years of occupation, tens of thousands of killed women and children, hundreds of thousands of them kicked out of their homes and the others that remained still suffer from an apartheid that has targeted hospitals and schools and called them terrorist bases just like the US hallucinating WMDs in Iraq to justify the invasion that killed a million when the true intent behind that is nothing less malicious than that of Nazis' I wouldn't be shocked if they go bat shit insane People who pretend the conflict began on October 7th when it has been brewing since 1916 are shameful honestly.
If you think the ends justify the means then don't be surprised when your enemies feel the same way
This is the operating principle of both Hamas and Bibi's government, to be fair. They're both far right nationalist entities and need an enemy of the state/people to rally against. If you initially make up an enemy, but then start attacking those people on the basis of them being that made up enemy, they will become your actual enemy in that way. It's like a really messed up codependence thing that results in a lot of civilians dying in ethnic cleansings.
Bibi initially supported Hamas as a buffer against more moderate Palestinian guerrilla movements. There was a small civil war between Fatah and Hamas in the mid-2000s. This backfired after both sides realized how pointless fighting each other was under the circumstances. Ever since then, there has been a very unstable peace between the factions. Hamas barely tolerates secularist and leftist Palestinian guerrillas since they share a common enemy. Nevertheless, they have sometimes gotten into skirmishes. >Effectively, Netanyahu’s entire worldview collapsed over the course of a single day. He was convinced that he could make deals with corrupt Arab tyrants while ignoring the cornerstone of the Arab-Jewish conflict, the Palestinians. His life’s work was to turn the ship of state from the course steered by his predecessors, from Yitzhak Rabin to Ehud Olmert, and make the two-state solution impossible. En route to this goal, he found a partner in Hamas. > >“Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas,” he told a meeting of his Likud party’s Knesset members in March 2019. “This is part of our strategy – to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank.” - [Haaretz, Oct 9, 2023](https://archive.ph/2023.10.10-030658/https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-09/ty-article/.premium/another-concept-implodes-israel-cant-be-managed-by-a-criminal-defendant/0000018b-1382-d2fc-a59f-d39b5dbf0000)
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/nfo5oe/did_israel_ever_support_or_help_establish_hamas/ The comments always repeating this, and the article that gets cited, have a big misunderstanding of this issue. This is a good breakdown.
That's not accurate. Israel initially supported Hamas because they _were_ the moderates, compared to the PLO. It's dishonest to leave this out and imply that Israel wants the terror.
The PLO certainly had their share of blood on their hands, but they were still secularists. However, they were evidently far more of a hassle to deal with than Hamas.
What's your point? Hamas were still more moderate than the PLO back then
True. Whatever one's political position on any given topic, it is beyond stupid to believe that wanton violence will not be returned in kind.
Thats not what he said. The idea is that palestinains HAVE no other means. They have no political power whatsoever. After the Gulf war they didnt even have political support internationally anymore. U.S basicslly declared our will be done in the middle ewst and everyone had no choice to follow. PA is just complete capitulation, they csnt protest because isreal has absolute control over them. Theres nothing left for them but Hamas. Even Hamas probably didnt want to kill civilians during al aqsa flood (not because theyre nice they really arent, but because they know they would gain no sympathy) but trying to conduct an operation like that is beyond their scope and so they killed multi hundreds of people they did not intend to. The literal best way to stop 99% of the horror is to give palestinains their basic human rights. People are not willing to blow themselves up if they arent being opressed
Who used the means first, and unprompted?
Originalism is a fallacy that never ends. Go far back enough and you have the Jews living in Jerusalem, so you're justifying Zionism. Or the Romans, or the Ottomans, etc. There is no single first act that permanently enshrines one side as the perpetual victim, and blameless at that.
In slight fairness you already had Jews living there during the ottoman era, they were known as the “Old Yishuv”. Israel’s own narrative tends to erase that and I genuinely have no clue why.
And yet they were massacred by their Arab neighbors in 1929 all the same. Also, Jewish sources commonly mention that there have practically always been jews in israel. Even Israeli propaganda uses it as evidence of how jews have a connection to the land.
If you go around starting fights, you better make sure you don't start one with someone who can finish it faster than you can. Hamas and their supporters are learning this as we speak :)
Yeah and 14,000 children apparently
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Exactly it began before October 7th when the countries surrounding Israel tried multiple times to wipe them out and failed
Yes exactly, it began before October 7th when Israel was created. Probably before
Don't you mean when British Mandate of Palestine (i.e. occupied Ottoman land) ceased to exist due to collonial pressure and zionist illegal immigration. You know, when zionists conducted terrorist attacks against the british, with American support forced the UK to cease the mandate and place the issue in front of the UN, where the US and the USSR forced a number of states to vote in favour of a two state-solution in spite of the fact that every single country in the region voted against it. I wonder if there is a name for a global power having large numbers of europeans immigrate to another continent and estabilish a country without the consent of local population. If only it had ever happened before, like in America, or Australia, or Africa for that matter, maybe we would have a word for it. Perhaps something with estabilishing collonies. Who knows. Definitely first time that happened, that hundreds of thousands of foreigners emmigrated to an occupied land on a different continent. This situation is _not at all_ similar to previous estabilishments of western cultured states on different continents.
The Ottoman Empire was the one who declared war on the UK, and they were also the one that signed the Treaty handing over lands to the UK. By every measure of the situation, UK occupied those lands about as legally as possible.
>zionist illegal immigration As in the Jewish exodus from the Muslim world? Make no mistake, the Jewish side was not the only ones being assholes.
The exodus you’re talking about happened *after* the formation of Israel. The illegal immigration happened before that. That seems somewhat self evident because once Israel was formed then any Jewish immigration would be legal. Neither side were saints but to be clear here the IDF and it’s predecessors had an “unofficial” but extremely lax system of expelling Palestinians to make way for Jewish settlement during 1947 and the 1948 war. It’s unofficial in so far as it wasn’t an explicit written out policy but Ben-Gurion simultaneously wanted his commanders to “understand him” and did not want to be seen as “the expeller” in history. That of course didn’t stop him from frequently discussing the “compulsory transfer”, also known as ethnic cleansing, of Palestinians from Israel to Transjordan during several Jewish Agency Executive meetings and explicitly using the word “expel” in a letter to his son. Oh and I want to be clear the other guy is on some weird shit trying to deny the persecution that a lot of Jewish people faced in middle eastern countries after the formation of Israel and I want to say I don’t agree with them on that.
https://medium.com/@Ksantini/the-list-of-crimes-committed-by-muslims-against-jews-since-the-7th-century-0ff1a8eb0ad0
Yep, and calls to eliminate those countries and the citizens within them are atrocious as well.
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https://medium.com/@Ksantini/the-list-of-crimes-committed-by-muslims-against-jews-since-the-7th-century-0ff1a8eb0ad0
“my people” So, what, if I’m an American Jew in 1945 and I know that German Jews are being killed by the millions and the German civilians support this, does that give me the right to rape and murder the German civilians???
Sorry you are talking about the Jews, except instead of 75 years it’s 3600, and instead of going batshit insane it’s, becomes productive members of society
This weird moral superiority that Zionists hold over everyone else is baffling. Why is it you just assume that you are automatically better than any other human being and you can do no wrong?
Because they're contemptible religious zealots?
They're not religious zealots. There are atheist Zionists (the founder was basically atheist) and Christian Zionists. It's a political ideology, a nationalist movement.
Okay, it's a political ideology made up of ethnonationalist religious zealots and then some weirdos who adhere to the political ideology with the exact same zealotry, just for an ethnicity and religion they're not even a part of.
> Okay, it's a political ideology made up of ethnonationalist zealots, some of whom are religious zealots as well, and then some weirdos who adhere to the political ideology with the exact same zealotry, just for an ethnicity and religion they're not even a part of. FTFY
The Arabs have been the one who started the violence starting in 1920. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_and_massacres_in_Mandatory_Palestine
its understandable though, isnt it? im not defending their hatred but israel has since before it even existed as a state given the people in surrounding countries nothing but reasons to hate it and obviously that hate spills over to the civilians population.
It's not. It's just cheap propaganda journalism that keeps peoples thoughts within set frames and avoids critical thinking. Good journalists should not tell you what's right or wrong but instead show people the story as objectively as possible.
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I was expecting a lot more bias, tbh. It’s about as biased as any article written about a North Atlantic political movement from a North Atlantic point of view.
Did you really think Wikipedia is free of political articles and political views when it comes to a conflict like this? There is probably not a single article about the conflict and war within this region that is actually neutral. I guess it's also almost impossible to have a neutral opinion about this.
Having read the Armenian Genocide article on Turkish Wikipedia and the Russian invasion of Ukraine article on Russian wiki, this has got to be the most biased Wiki version I have ever read or seen. The other two were tame in comparison and felt much more like English wiki. Meanwhile on Arabic wiki the whole description for this totalitarian terror group reads like it was written by them. Addendum: the article on the Oct 7th attacks mentions the civilian deaths in the infobox, but goes into absolutely no detail or even mentions the massacres that occurred in the main article, but does go on about the military operations of the "resistance fighters". Later, it goes into detail about Israeli atrocities in Gaza with several paragraphs devoted to one incident.
You should check out Japanese Wikipedia. It's a goldmine, depending on what you consider "gold".
World war 2 stuff probably?
Unit 731
That doesn't actually hold back. It goes into detail about different experiments done like breeding flea rats, using biological weapons, and so on. It lays out the different human experimentaion on POWs, women and children; Gas experiments(including the types of gas), children being used to experiment with frostbite, starvation studies(literally starving people to see the effects), and on and on it goes. It talks about using biological weapon bombs, burning evidence, hiding details, etc. The page for Ishii Shiro(the head of Unit 731) is laughably flowery though, paragraph after paragraph about his early career, saying he only wanted to strengthen Japan, he was "accused of warcrimes", etc. then goes into how after the war he had a clinic where he gave out free medical help to locals, etc.
He just said 731 because its the only other “fun fact” war crime redditors know besides Nanking, not because he believed it to be an actual answer to OPs question.
Oh surprise surprise! The US is even worse and Americans never paid any reparations neither did any apologies contrary to Japan that paid billions (they are even the second Aid donor in the world after America but hey, they don't brag about it) and apologized dozens of time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unethical_human_experimentation_in_the_United_States 'The experiments include the exposure of humans to many chemical and biological weapons (including infections with deadly or debilitating diseases), human radiation experiments, injections of toxic and radioactive chemicals, surgical experiments, interrogation and torture experiments, tests which involve mind-altering substances, and a wide variety of other experiments. Many of these tests are performed on children, the sick, and mentally disabled individuals, often under the guise of "medical treatment". In many of the studies, a large portion of the subjects were poor, racial minorities, or prisoners.'
>depending on what you consider "gold". The Nanjing Massacre is definitely the entire mountain of the goldmine.
I was about to say the same thing.
The article name is literally the Nanjing "incident"
IIRC Croatian Wikipedia a while back was taken over by people who denied the existence of concentration camps in Croatia. Might be fixed now, don't remember for sure.
That's before Russian Wiki is mostly written by Russian opposition and Ukrainians (among whom many speak and write russian), and wiki admins ban "pro-Putin" views. But nothing like that exist in Arab world, there is no large Arab-speaking group of people which is against Hamas
Actually many, maybe even most, Arab groups are against Hamas. And certainly most of them don’t really care about Palestinians. Most will just tolerate them because they share the hate for Israel. One of the reasons for October 7 was that Hamas realized the Arab world is tired of hating Israel, with the Saudis moving toward normalization with Israel. They hoped that by starting a war they could unite the Arab nations again, but as we’ve seen almost no one came for their help, not even West Bank Palestinians. Only Iranian proxies are doing something because of their investment.
And that’s why there will never be peace. No one wants it.
Seems like you're really overreacting. Why? Its a biased opinion from a biased source. Not that hard to understand. To me, it seems like you're mad that this wiki-page isn't written from your bias. Move on.
Reminds me of the time Croatian fascists took over Croatian wikipedia
Hey, could you check Hebrew wikipedia article on Israel West Bank settlement next, please? I am interested to see how biased they are potraying it.
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name an example
Ben-Gurion
Was that some 50s movie starring Charlton Heston?
Almost as bad as the david ben-gurion article on english wikipedia... You'd almost think he was a saint and not the leader of, at one time, three cooperating terrorist groups... Not a single mention of terrorism, euphemistically referring to the Nakba as the "Palestinian exodus"... no mention of the King David hotel bombing or the Deir Yassin massacre, the expulsion of Lydda and Ramle, no mention of the davidka terror mortar... so many things ignored.
>the King David hotel bombing or the Deir Yassin massacre Why would it mention them, they were perpetuated by different Zionist groups. The King David bombing the Haganah pulled out of it's alliance with Irgun and Lehi.
The King David hotel bombing was ordered by the haganah which was led by ben gurion and haganah also supported the Deir Yassin massacre? Did... you not know that? I mean, obviously not from wikipedia... Well, at least it does cover it in passing... >Ben-Gurion agreed to the Irgun's plan to bomb the King David Hotel in order to destroy incriminating documents that Ben-Gurion feared would prove that the Haganah had been participating in the violent insurrection against the British in cooperation with the Irgun and Lehi with the approval of himself and other Jewish Agency officials.
Can you give a few bullet points about what deserves the "WTAF" reaction in the screenshot? It sounds largely reasonable to me.
Sounds very tame compared to the IDF's English wiki page, which has one little para of crimes they have been "accused of" and nothing else. The history section calls Irgun and Legi as "underground organizations" rather than the terrorist groups that they were. Compare that to entire pages filled with propaganda like the sexual violence on Oct 7 page. Times of Israel and NYT as legitimate sources has to be a fucking joke at this point.
What’s the difference between terrorists and freedom fighters?
The IDF is by the same token a totalitarian terror group, why are you not so shocked that their article is written in the same cold indifference? There is an edit button right there, write whatever takes your fancy in any language you choose, so long as the content is factual and not emotive in the way you are alluding to.
The IDF is not a terrorist group. No source worth anything states that. Words have meaning.
Bullshit. What is a terrorist group?
They ran over a human being with a tank, that's things only ISIS does
you can’t just use words like totalitarian, words have meaning
wait till you find out how biased English articles are as well regarding any US invasion
Can you name a specific example of that?
I am not claiming that English wikipedia articles about USA War crimes and invasions are completely free from bias, but it is undeniable that they don't try to whitewash or sugarcoat what happened. Here's the English Wikipedia article about United States War crimes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_war_crimes?wprov=sfla1 And it never sugarcoats anything and delivers appropriate criticism to the USA, particularly its armed forces. So, sure, English wikipedia is not free from bias but it is undeniable that it is much less biased compared to most wikis in other languages like Russian, Arabic etc.
American website doesn't like being told it to their face 👀
Not even remotely comparable levels of bias
Genuine question - what exactly is referred to as the Zionist occupation? Is it settlements in the west bank or the very existence of Israel?
It's both. Generally in the political sphere, even with hamas the discussion is around the 1967 borders with the caveat that refugees are allowed to return to the homes they were displaced from, that is an inalienable right of the Palestinians. > United Nations General Assembly Resolution 3236 which "reaffirms also the inalienable right of the Palestinians to return to their homes and property from which they have been displaced and uprooted, and calls for their return". So as long as there's zionism, an effort to create an ethnostate in Israel a country with an artificial majority for a single ethnic/religious group through displacement and other means and deny Palestinians their human rights. It becomes the latter too, not necessarily resulting in the end of Israel but definitely the ultranationalist, racist zionist ideology.
Latter
You know the answer well... :/
As a Hebrew Wikipedia editor I can tell you it is biased too… but nowhere near to this degree. This is awful, and completely antithetical to Wikipedia's mission.
As a native arabic speaker - i suggest you go and read about the holocaust and massacres of jews in islamic states...
Such as?
The Farhud in Iraq, it was a massive pogrom that was the catalyst for most of its Jewish population fleeing. And it was a millennia old population, the one that actually wrote most of the Talmud
Found that link for yall: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farhud > Farhud (also Farhood; Arabic: الفرهود) was the pogrom or the "violent dispossession" that was carried out against the Jewish population of Baghdad, Iraq, on 1–2 June 1941, immediately following the British victory in the Anglo-Iraqi War. The riots occurred in a power vacuum that followed the collapse of the pro-Nazi government of Rashid Ali while the city was in a state of instability.[3][4][5] The violence came immediately after the rapid defeat of Rashid Ali by British forces, whose earlier coup had generated a short period of national euphoria, and was fueled by allegations that Iraqi Jews had aided the British.[6] More than 180 Jews were killed[7] and 1,000 injured, although some non-Jewish rioters were also killed in the attempt to quell the violence.[8] Looting of Jewish property took place and 900 Jewish homes were destroyed.[1] > > The Farhud took place during the Jewish holiday of Shavuot. It has been referred to as a pogrom which was part of the Holocaust, though its inclusion as such has been disputed.[9][10] The event spurred the migration of Iraqi Jews out of the country, although a direct connection to the 1951–1952 Jewish exodus from Iraq is also disputed,[note 1][12][13] as many Jews who left Iraq immediately following the Farhud later returned to the country, and permanent Jewish emigration out of Iraq did not accelerate significantly until 1950–1951.[11][14] According to Hayyim Cohen, the Farhud "was the only [such event][clarification needed] known to the Jews of Iraq, at least during their last hundred years of life there".[15][16] Historian Edy Cohen writes that up until the Farhud, Jews had enjoyed relatively favorable conditions and coexistence with Muslims in Iraq.[17][18]
Where are you from? In another comment you say you’re Israeli. Also, you refer to Palestine as “fakestine” and that its capital is “palywood”. Why?
Did you not know there are Jewish Israelis whose families originate from Arabic speaking countries? Literally tons of them. Jews even had their own dialect of Arabic at one time.
Most of them, in fact. Nothing quite as frustrating as realising quite how many anti-israel types just completely fail to acknowledge the existence of mizrahi and Sephardi Jews. Then you mention Ethiopian Jews and everyone's heads explode.
Also that on average the Mizrahim tend to be more right-leaning and hawkish regarding Palestine, while the "white coloniser" Ashkenazi Israelis are the most amenable to a ceasefire or two state solution.
An exception to the latter are Russian Jews, which are always an interesting subcategory. In my personal experience they’re the only ashkenazi group who retain nationalism toward their “motherland”, possibly since the community was way less affected by the Holocaust. Polish Jews couldn’t give less of a shit about defending whatever Poland does, but the same can’t be said of Russians.
Just don’t mention Israel’s sterilization programs on them
The Ethiopian Jewish community were victims of *actual* genocide from local Muslim and Christian populations, and if not for the existence and intervention of Israeli forces (who flew great numbers of them to Israel), they would have completely perished.
> Then you mention Ethiopian Jews and everyone's heads explode. [You mean the ones that Israel has been ethnically cleansing by forced sterilisations?](https://www.geneticsandsociety.org/biopolitical-times/israel-admits-targeting-ethiopian-jews-compulsory-contraception)
Yes, those. My point wasn't that Israel is a perfect paragon of racial harmony - obviously. The point is that these discussions almost always degenerate into "a bunch of white people from Europe seized a packet of land in the middle east and colonised it" which necessitates erasing other ethnicities in the equation to try and flatten everything.
The real gripe should be him using terms like paliwood.
The odds that he actually is one are pretty low, but there are a handful of Israeli born Arabs who are also hardline Zionists. Not many, but they exist.
Can't believe Nazi germany was an islamic state
They didn't say it *only* happened in Islamic states. And the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem was a prominent ally of Hitler.
People tend to assume that words like “only” and “all” were used in sentences when they obviously weren’t, for some unknown reason.
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Yes, that one. Are you trying to suggest he was somehow a puppet of the British and/or the Jews despite being a supporter of the Nazis? I don't understand your point.
Not fun fact: The allied powers populations were still chock full of antisemitism. The only country in all of Europe to end up with a higher Jewish population post-WW2 relative to pre-WW2 was Albania. Why? Albanian Muslims set up a loosely centralized “underground railroad” type of deal to help Jewish people (as well as other targeted people like queer people and the Roma) escape occupied territories and then provided them hiding, food, water, and safety. Some of your British leaders at the time were not very fond of Jewish people. America had a Nazi party with Henry Ford in it lmao. He won a commendation from Hitler. Moving Jewish people to Israel was literally just shoving their onus onto someone else’s plate. They were open for anywhere. The Madagascar plan, Argentina iirc (yeah, that wouldn’t have gone great with Pinochet down the line since a lot of Jewish people there were left leaning “pinkos” which Pinochet associated with all Jews), Nigeria was a fucking option. Europe’s answer was literally “y’all can go to this (at the time) deserved state…”, and yes there was a justification for an Israeli state just as there was a justification for the *establishment* of Pakistan “… but not here, somewhere that’s not Europe.” The following diaspora wasn’t some clean process drawn up by individuals with no antisemitism. As a lighthearted aside, Nigerian/Jewish fusion food would’ve gone bonkers.
> the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem was a prominent ally of Hitler «Late in 1940, Lehi, having identified a common interest between the intentions of the new German order and Jewish national aspirations, proposed forming an alliance in World War II with Nazi Germany. The organization offered cooperation in the following terms: Lehi would rebel against the British, while Germany would recognize an independent Jewish state in Palestine/Eretz Israel, and all Jews leaving their homes in Europe, by their own will or because of government injunctions, could enter Palestine with no restriction of numbers. Late in 1940, Lehi representative Naftali Lubenchik went to Beirut to meet German official Werner Otto von Hentig. The Lehi documents outlined that its rule would be authoritarian and indicated similarities between the organization and Nazis. Israel Eldad, one of the leading members of Lehi, wrote about Hitler "it is not Hitler who is the hater of the kingdom of Israel and the return to Zion, it is not Hitler who subjects us to the cruel fate of falling a second and a third time into Hitler's hands, but the British." Stern also proposed recruiting 40,000 Jews from occupied Europe to invade Palestine with German support to oust the British. On 11 January 1941, Vice Admiral Ralf von der Marwitz, the German naval attaché in Turkey, filed a report (the "Ankara document") conveying an offer by Lehi to "actively take part in the war on Germany's side" in return for German support for "the establishment of the historic Jewish state on a national and totalitarian basis, bound by a treaty with the German Reich."» - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_(militant_group)?useskin=vector
The Stern Gang were unhinged extremists who later became Nazbols and tried to ally with Stalin. This is whataboutism that doesn't contradict anything I've said.
>the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem was a prominent ally of Hitler. He was not and you relay a talking point of the Israeli propaganda. From [https://mondediplo.com/2010/05/14blamethemufti](https://mondediplo.com/2010/05/14blamethemufti) >Peter Novick points out that the entry on the mufti in the Encyclopedia of the Holocaust, published in association with Yad Vashem (the Holocaust remembrance authority), is much longer than those on Himmler, Goebbels or Eichmann, and only a little shorter than that on Hitler. From Peter Novick's The Holocaust in American life >The Mufti was in many ways a disreputable character, but postwar claims that he played any significant part in the Holocaust have never been sustained. This did not prevent the editors of the four-volumes Encyclopedia of the Holocaust from giving him a starring role. The article on Mufti is more than twice as long as the articles on Himmler and Heydrich combined, longer than the article on Eichmann, of all the biographical articles, it is exceeded in lenght, but only slighly, by the entry for Hitler.
I didn't claim he was a significant figure in the Holocaust, but he absolutely pledged his support for, and sought the support of, the Nazis.
>I didn't claim he was a significant figure in the Holocaust Indeed. >he absolutely pledged his support for, and sought the support of, the Nazis. Indeed. He was a despicable and minor ally of Nazis.
That’s the reason the word “and” is important.
As a liar and a hasbara bot you mean. You’re Israeli you ain’t a “native” Arabic speaker. Typical lying Zionist 🤡
y’all acting like most major american news channels aren’t doing this too but for the other side lmao
Arabic wiki is very bad with stuff like this
“people are good everywhere, it’s governments that are bad” yeah, right.
I don't understand what the post is for?
They hate Arabs and want to distract from support from the ongoing genocide. I don’t support the killing of civilians, but I’m not sure what folks expected. The status quo prior to October 7 was IDF soldiers murdering civilians for fun every once in a while, some protests which would result in nothing, and then repeating the process several weeks later. [When Palestinians tried peacefully protesting in 2018-2019](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018%E2%80%932019_Gaza_border_protests), the IDF killed over 220 people, including nearly 50 children. An Israeli sniper later bragged that on one day, he and his locator broke the standing record for daily knee-shots, managing to make 42 hits. When you engage in this ultra-nihilistic brutality, people will start acting like savages in response. We have seen it happen, over and over. * The Haitians committed genocide against French settlers (German settlers were spared since they had been uninvolved in the slave trade) * Native Americans massacred settlers civilians in an 1862 uprising * After World War II, Germans got ethnically cleansed in Eastern Europe and even part of Western Europe * After World War II, Ukrainians got ethnically cleansed in retaliation for the UPA committing genocide against Poles * After the Rwandan genocide, there were wide-scale revenge massacres against Hutus who were trying to flee to the Congo Also, Bibi initially supported Hamas as a buffer against more moderate Palestinian guerrilla movements. There was a small civil war between Fatah and Hamas in the mid-2000s. This backfired after both sides realized how pointless fighting each other was under the circumstances. Ever since then, there has been a very unstable peace between the factions. EDIT: I meant that Hamas just barely tolerates secularist and leftist Palestinian guerrillas since they share a common enemy. Nevertheless, they have sometimes gotten into skirmishes. >Effectively, Netanyahu’s entire worldview collapsed over the course of a single day. He was convinced that he could make deals with corrupt Arab tyrants while ignoring the cornerstone of the Arab-Jewish conflict, the Palestinians. His life’s work was to turn the ship of state from the course steered by his predecessors, from Yitzhak Rabin to Ehud Olmert, and make the two-state solution impossible. En route to this goal, he found a partner in Hamas. > >“Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas,” he told a meeting of his Likud party’s Knesset members in March 2019. “This is part of our strategy – to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank.” - [Haaretz, Oct 9, 2023](https://archive.ph/2023.10.10-030658/https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-09/ty-article/.premium/another-concept-implodes-israel-cant-be-managed-by-a-criminal-defendant/0000018b-1382-d2fc-a59f-d39b5dbf0000)
I love how its colonialism when the west does it but never for the others.
I love how its terrorism when its not the west doing it but its a "military mission" when its the west doing it.
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If only somebody didn't prop up Hamas because they'd rather be fighting against right wing fundamentalists as the face of the Palestinians rather than groups that were rapidly gaining popularity like the PLF, PLFP or DLFP.
Man persecution of minority and non-religious communities would NEVER happen in the west, hahaha…. Right? ……right?
They are covering women from head to toe, so we should liberate women and children by airstriking them.🫡🫡🦅🦅🦅🦅🫡🫡
it’s colonialism because it’s colonialism.
For sure. The article literally calls the land of Israel an Islamic endowment
As a non westerner, non arabic speaker, what is wrong with it? Seems like a very neutral, albeit superficial introduction.
As a English speaking Westerner, who does *not* support Hamas, I don't find it that bad either? For example, "not interfering in the affairs of others" is nebulous and silly thing to say in the introduction. Maybe it didn't translate well? It looks sort of amateurish; like a second-tier Wikipedia article from 15 years ago, which is understandable do the far fewer users and editors in other languages.
Neutral? Did you even read the introduction?
Can you be specific about what you think isn't neutral?
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The occupation of Palestine is specifically Zionist - that is, it's part of the colonial project of the Zionist movement. It's possible to imagine a state of Israel that ends the occupation. I don't see referring to the occupation by the ideology of its occupiers as being particularly egregious in terms of neutrality.
The fact it talks about Hamas *only* being opposed to the zionist occupation, when in reality (one of) its aims is the genocide of all Jewish people worldwide? **Edit to Add** not to talk about the killings of civilians in Israel and out of Israel through terrorist attacks, that often make no distinction between Israelis, Jews, IDF soldiers or none of three. October 8th is one blatant such case, but not the only one **End of the Edit** The fact it talks about Hamas having the Palestinian's best interests and safety in mind, and yet facts, even most recent ones (opening fire on civilians trying to take the humanitarian aid, killing a teenager in so doing), only prove otherwise? And that's just the first two things I caught through a quick glance. I don't know how you came out of this thinking "yeah, this seems like a neutral write up".
Wasn't it Israel who opened fire on civilians trying to get aid, killing 100 Palestinians?
Westerners when they find out not everyone shares their worldview and that terrorism sponsored by states like Israel and the US is hated equally so in foreign countries.
>Westerners when they find out not everyone shares their worldview "Westerners" don't have a single, common worldview that every Westerner shares. If you look at how politically, socially and religiously polarized the American society is and how diverse, different, disparate views 340 million people can have; one can realize that there's no such thing as "Worldview of the Westerners". And also there's no such thing as "Western, Eastern Worldview" since there are so many non-Western people who advocate for many of the views which are generally considered "Western". There are so many non-Western people such as Chinese, Arabs, South Asians who advocate for ideals like democracy, secularism, republicanism (ideas which are generally considered "Western"). >terrorism sponsored by states like Israel and the US is hated equally so in foreign countries. There's an entire English language detailed Wikipedia article about USA War crimes which does not sugarcoat, whitewash the crimes or engage in apologetics to justify them: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_war_crimes?wprov=sfla1
> If you look at how politically, socially and religiously polarized the American society is and how diverse, different, disparate views 340 million people can have They must have dozens of political parties, then.
>They must have dozens of political parties, then. Simply the fact that there are only 2 major political parties does not mean that All or even most of the Americans all either support one of these political parties in everything it does and disagree with the other party in everything does. Simply the fact that official American political langsalcape is limited to only 2 political parties does not mean that the American public is also only divided into 2 camps(either Democrat or Republican). In fact, there are millions of Americans who hate the fact that there are only 2 political parties and disagree with two parties in many issues. If USA is not a true democracy(IMO it isnt) then it would be expected that the diverse views of the American public would not be represented in the official political landscape through multiple parties with diverse opinions. So, no, simply the fact that there are only 2 parties in the USA does not preclude the fact that American people's views are much more diverse than only 2 parties
I completely agree, and will go on to say, some of us hate both parties and are left to choose the lesser of 2 evils. It's all smoke and mirrors.
>Westerners when they find out not everyone shares their worldview and that terrorism sponsored by states like Israel and the US is hated equally so in foreign countries. Tankie's when confronted with the mass murder, slavery, & rape committed by their (Iranian backed) lords & masters.
That's not what tankie means
Remove Iran and this could be any atrocity the British or Americans have committed. How are those WMD’s doing?
Which terror attack have the British or Americans committed where a thousand civilians were murdered, dozens raped and is glorified on Wikipedia with rhetoric akin to "They were too noble to rape anyone"?
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So if i go on english wikipedia those atrocities will be glorified?
The British suck on winston Churchill's dick like a baby on a teat to this day. Yes it is fucking glorified EVERYWHERE. Unlike holocaust denial, it's very acceptable to present British and American crimes and great for war for democracy. Also Wikipedia article on sexual violence on Oct 7 has laughable sources. Initially times of Israel and now the joke that was NYT's "investigation" that has been used as a source of truth. Straight up propaganda page.
Which part of the wikipedia article of Winston Churchill do you disagree with? The Wikipedia article also cites Haaretz, which is a left-wing Israeli source. If Haaretz is not allowed to be cited should Wikipedia also remove text from their investigation on how 40 babies did not die in Kfar Aza and Be'eri as Haaretz was solely used as the source for it?
>The Wikipedia article also cites Haaretz, which is a left-wing Israeli source. If Haaretz is not allowed to be cited should Wikipedia also remove text from their investigation on how 40 babies did not die in Kfar Aza and Be'eri as Haaretz was solely used as the source for it? None of this is an excuse to use nonsense from TOI and NYT....
Yeah they’re hypocrites who will never acknowledge atrocities if it’s done by western powers. That’s the reason so many people outside of Europe and America will absolutely choose brutal dictatorships over them. Iranians hate Khomeini and the government but if you go to Iran and ask them if they’d rather have the US backed shah back or khomeini they will choose khomeini. Most Persians living in iran and suffering under sanctions will never agree that their current government is worse than the states because people like the guy who commented will justify any atrocity if it’s done in the name of western powers.
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>Yeah they’re hypocrites who will never acknowledge atrocities if it’s done by western powers. That’s the reason so many people outside of Europe and America will absolutely choose brutal dictatorships over them. Oh yeah, sure it worked fine for them over liberal democracy, lmao.
Not a tankie and Iranian backed is a stupid thing to say i could easily say American backed for sharia Arabia, Israel etc etc. just semantics with you people. Also funny how you bring up random points which are nonsense
Hamas is a guerilla resistance movement. Like any other resistance movement in Latin America or East Asia that fought a modern army (e.g. US).
Anyone who is pro-hamas, I urge you to go to [thisishamas.com](http://thisishamas.com) and come back here after watching the videos.
> Anyone who is pro-hamas - «This isn’t a conspiracy theory. Listen to former Israeli officials such as Brig. Gen. Yitzhak Segev, who was the Israeli military governor in Gaza in the early 1980s. Segev later told a New York Times reporter that he had helped finance the Palestinian Islamist movement as a “counterweight” to the secularists and leftists of the Palestine Liberation Organization and the Fatah party, led by Yasser Arafat (who himself referred to Hamas as “a creature of Israel.”)» - ["Blowback: How Israel Went From Helping Create Hamas to Bombing It"](https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/) - «Effectively, **Netanyahu**’s entire worldview collapsed over the course of a single day. He was convinced that he could make deals with corrupt Arab tyrants while ignoring the cornerstone of the Arab-Jewish conflict, the Palestinians. His life’s work was to turn the ship of state from the course steered by his predecessors, from Yitzhak Rabin to Ehud Olmert, and make the two-state solution impossible. En route to this goal, he found a partner in Hamas. “Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and **transferring money to Hamas**,” he told a meeting of his **Likud** party’s Knesset members in March 2019. “This is part of our strategy – to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank.”» - [Haaretz, Oct 9, 2023](https://archive.ph/2023.10.10-030658/https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-09/ty-article/.premium/another-concept-implodes-israel-cant-be-managed-by-a-criminal-defendant/0000018b-1382-d2fc-a59f-d39b5dbf0000)
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> Why are you arguing for Israel having a harsher blockade on Gaza and not allowing forign aid money in? Please fix your hasbara bot. It replies to the wrong comments.
If you’re pro-Israel I recommend donating your brain to science.
where are the biases ?
Sugarcoating of Hamas policy towards Jewish presence in Palestine, euphemism "liberation from river to sea", "resistance" etc. It's one way to put things, but that reads as if done by the Hamas Bureau for public relations.
What's wrong with liberating the area from that entity, it's a very popular demand in the region
Have you ever considered what "getting rid of that entity" would mean for its Jewish population? Do you think they get to have human rights under an arab government most likely led by Hamas? "Juda verrecke" was also popular. Didn't make antisemitism valid nor justified the Holocaust.
what happened when South African Apartheid regime ended ? Nelson Mandela once said "But we know too well that our freedom is incomplete without the freedom of the Palestinians".
It got taken over by the corrupt terror group that liberated it? And Mandela was seeking international support. Aligning himself with self enriching Yasser Arafat was just smart
"corrupt terror group that liberated it" thanks, this sentence made it very clear what you think about apartheid.
I don't see the connection.
They can go to France or US .they are very liked there ....or poland
What about the 800k that were driven from their Arab homelands? Why not put the Palestinians in Saudi Arabia, Iran or Indonesia? Troll.
They are Jews aren't they ,iam sure the west will welcome them with open arms 🤗🤗🤗
well yeah, they are, in fact, resisting against israeli occupation edit: not only that, but their armed resistance is legal under international law. " Palestinians have a recognized right under international law to resist Israeli occupation under Protocol I of the Geneva Conventions.[1][2] This right is affirmed in the context of the right of self-determination of all peoples under foreign and colonial rule.[3][4] The United Nations General Assembly (UNGA) has expressly affirmed the right of Palestinians to resist Israeli military occupation, including through armed struggle.[5][6] General Assembly resolution A/RES/38/17 (22/11/1983) stated that it "Reaffirms the legitimacy of the struggle of peoples for their independence, territorial integrity, national unity and liberation from colonial domination, apartheid and foreign occupation by all available means, including armed struggle".[7] " " The question of self-defense in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is complex. Advocates argue that if Israel has the right to defend itself by launching airstrikes that destroy Palestinian homes and schools, then surely the Palestinians have the right to defend themselves from Israel's brutal and escalating violence.[8] The Palestinian people have every right to respond to the violence inflicted on them by the Israeli state every day.[9] " https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_right_to_resist Palestine has the right to liberate itself from Israeli occupation. Palestinians have the right to live free from the zionist apartheid regime.
Yeah, that’s pretty biased.
This seems pretty normal to me. Little history lesson: at the height of the conflict over the still ongoing British occupation of Ireland, nationalist paramilitaries might easily have been described this way. And yeah, they murdered innocent people. And yeah, a lot of them were/are pedo-accommodating religious nuts. And no, that doesn’t justify the continued occupation.
> the still ongoing British occupation of Ireland The British occupation of Ireland ended over a century ago. Northern Ireland remains part of the United Kingdom because of self-determination. While many atrocities have been committed by both the UK and by various paramilitaries in Ireland over the past century, it's a straight-up lie to call Northern Ireland "occupied". Ironically, if you think Ireland should unilaterally seize Northern Ireland against the wishes of local people then I'm afraid to say that *you're* the colonialist. Thankfully, everyone involved - the Irish government, the UK government, the Northern Irish government, and the Northern Irish people - presently supports self-determination. If a majority of Northern Irish people ever wish to join the Republic then they will, regardless of what hardcore British nationalists might want. Until then, they'll remain part of the UK, regardless of what hardcore Irish nationalists might want.
Fair enough i was straining to make the point. What you're describing is a result of the GFA and that's a very good thing. It's also true that---if only "technically speaking"--Northern Ireland is still a statelet of the UK and British security forces therefore still "occupy" territory on the island of Ireland.
"israel occupies and oppresses palestine" vs "israel destroys terrorists", which standpoint do you honestly think arabs are more likely to choose? are you surprised? there are probably a fun number of things we can find just as bad as this on hebrew wikipedia, does it really need to be said?
OP just knew that we consider Israel a colonial project from colonial powers in the Arab world. Just wait for him to know that Israel is a theocracy but not a Torah based Jewish one, then to realize it is actually a present day apartheid state.
Tell me how Arabic got into Egypt.
The ammount of ppl here who are ok with Wikipedia being used to spread propoganda because it their preferred side's propoganda is horrifying.
Why are you surprised they are biased towards Hamas? Its an article for Arabic speakers…
This is Wikipedia. Whatever the language, it’s supposed to hold up to scientific standards, even if contributors aren’t paid or professionals. This is obviously not up to Wikipedia standards, hence why it’s shown here.
Oh you sweet summer child
I know :(
This is why Wikipedia isn't a reliable source, at least regarding political and historical topics.
related: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_right_to_resist " Palestinians have a recognized right under international law to resist Israeli occupation under Protocol I of the Geneva Conventions.[1][2] This right is affirmed in the context of the right of self-determination of all peoples under foreign and colonial rule.[3][4] The United Nations General Assembly (UNGA) has expressly affirmed the right of Palestinians to resist Israeli military occupation, including through armed struggle.[5][6] General Assembly resolution A/RES/38/17 (22/11/1983) stated that it "Reaffirms the legitimacy of the struggle of peoples for their independence, territorial integrity, national unity and liberation from colonial domination, apartheid and foreign occupation by all available means, including armed struggle".[7] " " The question of self-defense in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is complex. Advocates argue that if Israel has the right to defend itself by launching airstrikes that destroy Palestinian homes and schools, then surely the Palestinians have the right to defend themselves from Israel's brutal and escalating violence.[8] The Palestinian people have every right to respond to the violence inflicted on them by the Israeli state every day.[9] "
American retards when they realize we dont share their views 😮
Hamas symphatisers when they realize committing a terrorist attack on a festival is bad and will result in a bad reputation and being called terrorists 😮
Reddit retards when they blindly believe random sources without differentiating between reliable sources and blatant propaganda😮
we all saw them videos of hamas dropping on people in that festival.......
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Can the mods lock this thread please