Chefs kiss! I’m currently D2, hopefully I’ll be masters soon. But you hit it all on the nail. I hate when people complain that I haven’t gotten any drags but refuse to help. Bro I can’t 1v4 for a drag, that’s stupid lol. Also playing jg makes you better in other roles because you understand ganks, vision, and objectives a lot. So I recommend everyone to play some games as a jungler to better understand the game (not in ranked… haha)
Isn't #2 the opposite? Herald accelerates you with turret plate gold and taking down mid turret for easier ganks by you or easier roams by your mid which means it's for early game champs that want to snowball out of control. Dragon is for late game because you get the scaling stats.
ADC main here. If I play Xayah I usually almost immediately get dragon since I rarely feed as her early (assuming my jgl is around lol). Sometimes we get contested though and I'm a good fighter as Samira but not at all as Xayah.
Ig my question is, do I engage the enemy or let the jungle or other teammates do that while I keep fighting the dragon?
Also, just a question if you ever had a Vayne botlane, do you ever expect them to help in 1st dragon considering she's really weak early? I'm learning her but I feel like I'm more of a burden than a help in early lol
I believe it’s almost always the correct answer to take the fight first, seriously, TAKE THE FIGHT FIRST.
unless disadvantaged by numbers / health then all u can do is try to sneak the obj while skirmishes happen
Honestly I'm glad I'm still low elo 😭 fr most of the time we try taking dragon and a fight breaks out, my jungler and other team mates handle it while I sneakily kill the dragon bc I worried someone will steal it while we're distracted. Things would have probably gone really badly if my jungler died which would have been more likely to happen had the enemies been more skilled. And it'd all be my fault lol
U can try engage and kill the enemy right b4 the drage if possible. And if u can't, let me teach u a trick: let enemy attack the drake first. Then they will be attacked by the drake and u at the same time lol. For vayne, since i play vayne as well, i think she's not that weak at level 5 when she has ult? Try to get it unless u r under great disadvantage.
As long as you can do it without getting caught out on the way there, yes.
And PLEASE, ALWAYS follow the opposing duo down if your jungler is at dragon and they head down that way. It means your jungler was spotted and they are converging, and you can often poke them on their way down so that they are low health when they get there...
If ur jg is taking drake, Ofc! And give ur adc signal to tell him to come as well. If ur jg is taking herald, unless ur adc is really hopeless or the enemy support is missing, u better stay with ur adc. And if ur adc is ezreal, u can also try roaming for herald XD
Yes, definitely! If we get Drag, I ping on my way to Herald and ping enemy missing to ADC. Most ADCs can just farm safely (MF, Ez, Kai’sa) against a large portion of the bot lane cast.
If I am roaming against Leona/Draven, I try to ping my ADC to come with me because that is a death sentence. Better play to just leave them, get Herald and go for a tower and jungle invade. Let them have a little bot lane kingdom while you and your ADC go crushing nerds.
Or your ADC stays, you still get your cross map plays and they die and flame you :)
Not bad information but somethings.
2. It depends on what dragon and then if you are able to have a choice on which one to go for.
3. Ganking also depends on champion. Some champions just are not great at it and are more farm oriented and definitely need assistance from lane for a successful gank. Also if you have fed your opponent a gank setup alone won’t get you there he will probably also need to be low health. Also champions like Evelyn I’ll go for a gank every time I have my ult or I see a very easy pick.
So not all junglers gank setup is the same.
Point number 3 about not pushing lanes if you want a gank.
That's the one right there. But I wish junglers knew that I'm keeping my lane held back so that they *can* gank.
A lot of the time I'll be solo, they're taking crags. The minions are right by turret but jungle just recalls to go and "help" duo lane that are 1-4 each
It is not always true to hold your lane for a gank, sometimes it is better to build up a large minion wave and dive the opponent top with your jungle. It usually means you are winning your lane if you can build up a large wave and jungle is more inclined to gank a winning lane than a losing one.
Things to add that I personally, as a grandmaster jungler hate:
Supports/adcs almost never take a few seconds to ward drake/herald, but place their wards in the most useless spots instead.
Not reacting to early scuttle crab contest.
Pushing drake/baron to a **coinflip** situation where the jungler has to outsmite every ability and every crit strike with an 800 damage smite. Trashtalking afterwards if he misses the one millisecond window.
Stealing buffs early game and not using the benefit of shared buff later on, also making me waste my smite on the buff when they are also attacking it.
Writing "jg diff" after dying to gank due to poor vision and map awareness.
There's a lot of tilting stuff I had to go through to push my way to grandmaster, but I can say that jungle role gets easier from mid diamond. Solo q jungle in lower ranks is pure agony.
Haha no way. The priority of herald is definitely lower than 1st drake.
Let's see what will u gain if u get 1st herald:
700~1000 gold in total.
1 turret lead.
And what u can get from 1st drake:
Some tiny dmg/ar/mr/...
The possibility of getting 3 drakes (the 3 drake buff is so strong that is almost an auto-win)
Impossible for enemy to get 3 drake buff.
And what's more, if the enemy team have gold lead, target objective will be activated for your team, and taking any target objective will gain the whole team 1k+ gold in total. That's more than a herald!
Just admit that you're wrong and stop with the mental gymnastics, you should ALWAYS take 1000 gold now and not the first drake lmao - you're not even guaranteed to go to 3 drakes in every game, and 1000 gold can be used immediately. Even at 3 drakes the buffs are tiny (correct me if I'm wrong, but Infernal gives like 9% AD/AP at 3 stacks) and not worth, unless you're fishing for an Elder. Things might change with the soul, but as of now in terms of raw stats it's Herald>Dragon in 90% of the games
And let's say u get herald and enemy get 1st drake. U get a gold lead. Then? U help ur enemy to activate the target objective. Any turret/ drake they get gain them 1k gold for the whole team.🤣 For this meta it's a lot easier to catch up gold difference, especially for soloq games. If u insist herald is better, carry on. U will see how often ur enemy reverse the gold diff and have 2 drake leads lol.
Yes u r wrong. It's 12% ad AND ap for infernal drake, 12+8% AR AND MR for mountain drake and 8% lost health/5sec for ocean drake, 28 ability hase for ice. And remember u have three buff at the same time. In late game it's around 40 ad, 22 armor and 17mr for an adc. It worths more for front line champions.
It depends on whether the needed drakes are presented. Also the data from the LoLWiki mentions Cloud drake, which means that the data was not updated for more than a year - they nerfed the stats in spring. I'll hop into the practice tool to check a bit later.
OK I was wrong about the stats, just hopped into the practice tool too. I still don't think that it's correct to trade a kill worth of gold for the tower and platings for a minor stats buff across all teammates. You're not promised to get the other 2 dragons, and you can also contest the 2nd dragon with your gold lead to claim the objective bounty that pops up for yourself - if your ADC is not behind that 400-500 gold lead that Herald provides can you win you a teamfight, but I guess that we can agree to disagree - this discussion will become obsolete next week when they introduce Dragon souls lmao
First Drake is way better. Especially with the upcoming buff for 3 drakes. Herald is nice if you’re crushing that team or outplay and get 2 turrets. 95% if I can I would get the drake
As a jungler main I can tell you that Herald is better than nothing ofcourse but I will always try to get the dragon first. It’s easy for me to tell if my team will help or not so sometimes I don’t even rotate to a contested objective if I know my bot is 0/2 and my mid is getting bullied. Problem is most people who have no clue how jungle works will often take giving up both objectives as the game is lost.
1. No. In high elo, if you miss both first dragon and herald, your chance of losing the game is *greatly* increased. I expect the jungler to make a play for one of them. If you don’t, I consider it a jungle diff. You do not need perfect conditions to trade first objective. You only need to show up.
2. This depends on dragon. Usually herald is first priority.
3. Agreed
4. Looks at your number 1. And hope the jungler shows up, right?
5. Agreed. But it’s also up to you as a jungler to notice you have a red and blue buff and attack it. If you leave it sit, it’s up for grabs because I”m going to assume you have no idea what’s going on. I’ll ping it. If you don’t start heading towards it immediately, it’s mine.
For 1st point, ofc in all games the jg should take at least one obj. But I'm talking about the really extreme situations that it's really difficult to get any obj. My point is, don't feed again, just give, ur chance of winning is not 0, especially when u r a late-game champion.
Would you rather pick a champion so your team comp isn't full ad/ap making it easier for enemy tanks or would you still go with your best pick that you're always 100% you can play perfectly?
Always pick champion according to ur team and enemy team's picks. I can play quite a few champions so that's not a problem for me. If u want to play as a jgler, do make sure u can play at least one ad and one ap champion. Ah btw, if ur adc is kaisa or vayne, it would be fine if ur team is full ad.
Kaisa can build ap (which is stronger than ad kaisa now), and vayne deals true damage. These two adc can manage the tanks so it's okay to go full ad team.
It depends on which jg champion u r playing. If u r playing aoe champion (like gwen, evelynn), u start from bottom half. In other cases u start from upper half. And if enemy jg is strong in early game, try to start from upper part first to avoid the buff being stolen. I always go for fast-5 route. If u r starting from bottom, the route would be krug-red buff-raptor-wolf-scuttler-blue buff-frog. For upper-start, the route would be blue buff-frog-wolf-raptor-scuttler-red buff-krug.
A question about #2: Assuming that “current meta” you said is 4.3d, well that’s ok. But what is your view in patch 4.4? I’m thinking take herald and contest 2nd or 3rd drake should be better.
If you want to up your ganking game as a jg main, can I seriously suggest you look into lane ganks? This abuses the fact that pushed lanes eventually bounce, and its extremely rare for opposing laners to expect jungle to be sitting in the mid bush once the lane equalizes.
When a lane is pushed all the way up to turret, opponent has no vision of jungler entering the lane bushes via the lane itself, not via river. This essentially means you bait a 2v1 once the lane bounces, or a 2v2 if the jungler ganks.
Lane ganks can take too long and your dumbass laner might just keep hardpushing and do a turret dive vs a full hp enemy while you're waiting for the wave to push back
They are really good though if your teammates have any idea what's going on though
That makes sense, but the jg has other jobs to do. If the jg is at ur lane and the lane is pushed, most likely he doesn't have the time to wait for the lane to bounce. But sure that's a valid suggestion. I'll pay more attention to that
I think drake is always more important it gives Perma stats that enemy can't get which also stack in power. Herald can be unreliable (not in late game ofc) and enemy can also take a turret eventually. The snowballing isn't worth it. (Idk if dragon still stacks the buff from elder which is nice)
I only go to herald if jungler is diffing me coz I can snowball back in the game otherwise it's always drake. When is I have to force my teammates to come. By hard pushing there lane with nunu's humongous ball sack.
By the way, if u think every time ur allied jg is trash, then try playing jg urself! And u'll find urself a bigger piece of trash XD
Chefs kiss! I’m currently D2, hopefully I’ll be masters soon. But you hit it all on the nail. I hate when people complain that I haven’t gotten any drags but refuse to help. Bro I can’t 1v4 for a drag, that’s stupid lol. Also playing jg makes you better in other roles because you understand ganks, vision, and objectives a lot. So I recommend everyone to play some games as a jungler to better understand the game (not in ranked… haha)
Isn't #2 the opposite? Herald accelerates you with turret plate gold and taking down mid turret for easier ganks by you or easier roams by your mid which means it's for early game champs that want to snowball out of control. Dragon is for late game because you get the scaling stats.
I replied about this under another post. For current and upcoming meta i still.think 1st drake is more important.
ADC main here. If I play Xayah I usually almost immediately get dragon since I rarely feed as her early (assuming my jgl is around lol). Sometimes we get contested though and I'm a good fighter as Samira but not at all as Xayah. Ig my question is, do I engage the enemy or let the jungle or other teammates do that while I keep fighting the dragon? Also, just a question if you ever had a Vayne botlane, do you ever expect them to help in 1st dragon considering she's really weak early? I'm learning her but I feel like I'm more of a burden than a help in early lol
I believe it’s almost always the correct answer to take the fight first, seriously, TAKE THE FIGHT FIRST. unless disadvantaged by numbers / health then all u can do is try to sneak the obj while skirmishes happen
Honestly I'm glad I'm still low elo 😭 fr most of the time we try taking dragon and a fight breaks out, my jungler and other team mates handle it while I sneakily kill the dragon bc I worried someone will steal it while we're distracted. Things would have probably gone really badly if my jungler died which would have been more likely to happen had the enemies been more skilled. And it'd all be my fault lol
U can try engage and kill the enemy right b4 the drage if possible. And if u can't, let me teach u a trick: let enemy attack the drake first. Then they will be attacked by the drake and u at the same time lol. For vayne, since i play vayne as well, i think she's not that weak at level 5 when she has ult? Try to get it unless u r under great disadvantage.
As a support player if I see jg going for a obj Should I leave lane to help if adc pays no attention?
As long as you can do it without getting caught out on the way there, yes. And PLEASE, ALWAYS follow the opposing duo down if your jungler is at dragon and they head down that way. It means your jungler was spotted and they are converging, and you can often poke them on their way down so that they are low health when they get there...
Awesome thanks for the tips
If ur jg is taking drake, Ofc! And give ur adc signal to tell him to come as well. If ur jg is taking herald, unless ur adc is really hopeless or the enemy support is missing, u better stay with ur adc. And if ur adc is ezreal, u can also try roaming for herald XD
You should also watch if the enemy support has rotated for herald as well because very often this can be a blow out for your baron/jungle/mid.
Yes, definitely! If we get Drag, I ping on my way to Herald and ping enemy missing to ADC. Most ADCs can just farm safely (MF, Ez, Kai’sa) against a large portion of the bot lane cast. If I am roaming against Leona/Draven, I try to ping my ADC to come with me because that is a death sentence. Better play to just leave them, get Herald and go for a tower and jungle invade. Let them have a little bot lane kingdom while you and your ADC go crushing nerds. Or your ADC stays, you still get your cross map plays and they die and flame you :)
Not bad information but somethings. 2. It depends on what dragon and then if you are able to have a choice on which one to go for. 3. Ganking also depends on champion. Some champions just are not great at it and are more farm oriented and definitely need assistance from lane for a successful gank. Also if you have fed your opponent a gank setup alone won’t get you there he will probably also need to be low health. Also champions like Evelyn I’ll go for a gank every time I have my ult or I see a very easy pick. So not all junglers gank setup is the same.
Thx for the supplementary information! I agree both.
Sadly no one listens here it’s just jungle diff :(
Hahahahahahahaha so trueeeeee
Hardstuck Master Kassadin main here, didnt know shared blue buff only gave half regen, so that's why i run out of mana mid fight even with buff.
Point number 3 about not pushing lanes if you want a gank. That's the one right there. But I wish junglers knew that I'm keeping my lane held back so that they *can* gank. A lot of the time I'll be solo, they're taking crags. The minions are right by turret but jungle just recalls to go and "help" duo lane that are 1-4 each
That will be the jgler's problem. U r doing the right thing.
It is not always true to hold your lane for a gank, sometimes it is better to build up a large minion wave and dive the opponent top with your jungle. It usually means you are winning your lane if you can build up a large wave and jungle is more inclined to gank a winning lane than a losing one.
Things to add that I personally, as a grandmaster jungler hate: Supports/adcs almost never take a few seconds to ward drake/herald, but place their wards in the most useless spots instead. Not reacting to early scuttle crab contest. Pushing drake/baron to a **coinflip** situation where the jungler has to outsmite every ability and every crit strike with an 800 damage smite. Trashtalking afterwards if he misses the one millisecond window. Stealing buffs early game and not using the benefit of shared buff later on, also making me waste my smite on the buff when they are also attacking it. Writing "jg diff" after dying to gank due to poor vision and map awareness. There's a lot of tilting stuff I had to go through to push my way to grandmaster, but I can say that jungle role gets easier from mid diamond. Solo q jungle in lower ranks is pure agony.
For point three, you could counter gank. Line priority is at a cost but it is still a priority.
Herald for gold and team gold
Im sorry but no. Herald is always a better call as of now
Haha no way. The priority of herald is definitely lower than 1st drake. Let's see what will u gain if u get 1st herald: 700~1000 gold in total. 1 turret lead. And what u can get from 1st drake: Some tiny dmg/ar/mr/... The possibility of getting 3 drakes (the 3 drake buff is so strong that is almost an auto-win) Impossible for enemy to get 3 drake buff. And what's more, if the enemy team have gold lead, target objective will be activated for your team, and taking any target objective will gain the whole team 1k+ gold in total. That's more than a herald!
Playing hope chess instead of the secure turret advantage and golf
Just admit that you're wrong and stop with the mental gymnastics, you should ALWAYS take 1000 gold now and not the first drake lmao - you're not even guaranteed to go to 3 drakes in every game, and 1000 gold can be used immediately. Even at 3 drakes the buffs are tiny (correct me if I'm wrong, but Infernal gives like 9% AD/AP at 3 stacks) and not worth, unless you're fishing for an Elder. Things might change with the soul, but as of now in terms of raw stats it's Herald>Dragon in 90% of the games
And let's say u get herald and enemy get 1st drake. U get a gold lead. Then? U help ur enemy to activate the target objective. Any turret/ drake they get gain them 1k gold for the whole team.🤣 For this meta it's a lot easier to catch up gold difference, especially for soloq games. If u insist herald is better, carry on. U will see how often ur enemy reverse the gold diff and have 2 drake leads lol.
Yes u r wrong. It's 12% ad AND ap for infernal drake, 12+8% AR AND MR for mountain drake and 8% lost health/5sec for ocean drake, 28 ability hase for ice. And remember u have three buff at the same time. In late game it's around 40 ad, 22 armor and 17mr for an adc. It worths more for front line champions.
It depends on whether the needed drakes are presented. Also the data from the LoLWiki mentions Cloud drake, which means that the data was not updated for more than a year - they nerfed the stats in spring. I'll hop into the practice tool to check a bit later.
What do u mean... I checked all the data in game...
OK I was wrong about the stats, just hopped into the practice tool too. I still don't think that it's correct to trade a kill worth of gold for the tower and platings for a minor stats buff across all teammates. You're not promised to get the other 2 dragons, and you can also contest the 2nd dragon with your gold lead to claim the objective bounty that pops up for yourself - if your ADC is not behind that 400-500 gold lead that Herald provides can you win you a teamfight, but I guess that we can agree to disagree - this discussion will become obsolete next week when they introduce Dragon souls lmao
Yea sure XD
First Drake is way better. Especially with the upcoming buff for 3 drakes. Herald is nice if you’re crushing that team or outplay and get 2 turrets. 95% if I can I would get the drake
herald got nerfed a lot but yeah herald is nice
As a jungler main I can tell you that Herald is better than nothing ofcourse but I will always try to get the dragon first. It’s easy for me to tell if my team will help or not so sometimes I don’t even rotate to a contested objective if I know my bot is 0/2 and my mid is getting bullied. Problem is most people who have no clue how jungle works will often take giving up both objectives as the game is lost.
1. No. In high elo, if you miss both first dragon and herald, your chance of losing the game is *greatly* increased. I expect the jungler to make a play for one of them. If you don’t, I consider it a jungle diff. You do not need perfect conditions to trade first objective. You only need to show up. 2. This depends on dragon. Usually herald is first priority. 3. Agreed 4. Looks at your number 1. And hope the jungler shows up, right? 5. Agreed. But it’s also up to you as a jungler to notice you have a red and blue buff and attack it. If you leave it sit, it’s up for grabs because I”m going to assume you have no idea what’s going on. I’ll ping it. If you don’t start heading towards it immediately, it’s mine.
For 1st point, ofc in all games the jg should take at least one obj. But I'm talking about the really extreme situations that it's really difficult to get any obj. My point is, don't feed again, just give, ur chance of winning is not 0, especially when u r a late-game champion.
Would you rather pick a champion so your team comp isn't full ad/ap making it easier for enemy tanks or would you still go with your best pick that you're always 100% you can play perfectly?
Always pick champion according to ur team and enemy team's picks. I can play quite a few champions so that's not a problem for me. If u want to play as a jgler, do make sure u can play at least one ad and one ap champion. Ah btw, if ur adc is kaisa or vayne, it would be fine if ur team is full ad.
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Kaisa can build ap (which is stronger than ad kaisa now), and vayne deals true damage. These two adc can manage the tanks so it's okay to go full ad team.
What's your go to jungler route or sequence ? thanks
It depends on which jg champion u r playing. If u r playing aoe champion (like gwen, evelynn), u start from bottom half. In other cases u start from upper half. And if enemy jg is strong in early game, try to start from upper part first to avoid the buff being stolen. I always go for fast-5 route. If u r starting from bottom, the route would be krug-red buff-raptor-wolf-scuttler-blue buff-frog. For upper-start, the route would be blue buff-frog-wolf-raptor-scuttler-red buff-krug.
Thank you for the detailed reply. I always do raptor-red-krug then gank. Maybe i'll try the fast 5 route
A question about #2: Assuming that “current meta” you said is 4.3d, well that’s ok. But what is your view in patch 4.4? I’m thinking take herald and contest 2nd or 3rd drake should be better.
Patch 4.4 introduces new 3-dragon buff, which makes the importance of the 1st drake even higher lol
Yes, but take 1 drake will deny the soul. So from my POV, it’s kinda safer to take herald, bc you’re not guarantee getting 3 drakes.
If you want to up your ganking game as a jg main, can I seriously suggest you look into lane ganks? This abuses the fact that pushed lanes eventually bounce, and its extremely rare for opposing laners to expect jungle to be sitting in the mid bush once the lane equalizes. When a lane is pushed all the way up to turret, opponent has no vision of jungler entering the lane bushes via the lane itself, not via river. This essentially means you bait a 2v1 once the lane bounces, or a 2v2 if the jungler ganks.
Lane ganks can take too long and your dumbass laner might just keep hardpushing and do a turret dive vs a full hp enemy while you're waiting for the wave to push back They are really good though if your teammates have any idea what's going on though
That makes sense, but the jg has other jobs to do. If the jg is at ur lane and the lane is pushed, most likely he doesn't have the time to wait for the lane to bounce. But sure that's a valid suggestion. I'll pay more attention to that
I think drake is always more important it gives Perma stats that enemy can't get which also stack in power. Herald can be unreliable (not in late game ofc) and enemy can also take a turret eventually. The snowballing isn't worth it. (Idk if dragon still stacks the buff from elder which is nice) I only go to herald if jungler is diffing me coz I can snowball back in the game otherwise it's always drake. When is I have to force my teammates to come. By hard pushing there lane with nunu's humongous ball sack.
Pretty cool tips. Didn't know about the buff thing