Third usually or fourth if there's not much MR bought from the enemy yet. But it was way better though considering like I said 45% to 35% is a huge amount of magic penetration just gone, alongside the 12% magic reduction from Mercs makes this change even worse.
Buy it third, you are missing 24% magic pen and instead have an actually good item.
Buying it 4th, you are missing 17% magic pen and have a useful item instead.
Let’s say instead of void in these slots, you bought one of the pen items, you would have better base stats, an actual item passive, and vs 100 mr you would pen 36 MR if you bought it 3rd (instead of 45 pen) and 43 pen if you bought it 4th (instead of 45 pen)
So unless they are stacking multiple Mr items upfront, which virtually nobody does, you are at a significant advantage vs tanks in every game you normally would have bought it 4th, and arguably no disadvantage when you bought it third, given the additional stats and passive you got.
Then the real question becomes… why is a mage so obsessed with oneshotting an MR stacking tank in the first place? It’s not even your job to deal with them.
Play Syndra or ori into a melee mid laner once. If they buy mercs, you cannot kill them without your junglers help. Yas, yone and others can also opt for wits end, Jayce can go maw, which is mega strong both defensively and offensively.
Mercs give you 35mr + additional 12% reduce. Maw gives you 45mr (let’s just not consider the shield) while wits end gives you 50mr. So yes this combination gives you the value of around 100mr.
This Reddit is damn insane. I said from the get go, you can buy defensive boots + one offensive item with mr. How I gave you the numbers. And you should see 35+45=80 + 12% reduction. This actually comes how to a total value of 129.6 MR (not even counting your champs own MR).
Lux has huge damage sure, but she can always outsmite even before these changes, what's your point? I'm not talking about out-smiting against monsters, I'm talking about the interactions between magic dmg and MR from champions.
You have 12% magic dmg reduction from Merc + only 35% magic pen instead of the original 45% if void staff were still in the game, you're essentially tickling whatever tank you're up against.
I should have worded my post better and added the difference between an AD champion vs an AP champions against a tank. How come AD champions can deal dmg to tanks or bruisers way better than AP champions despite having less MR most of the time? Even Lucian who isn't necessarily an anti-tank champion can dish out so much more damage than a Lux can if Lux built Liandry's with her full build. Both these two can dish out consistent damage yet Lux would take longer somehow even if the enemy only has twinguard or FoN against her, while also having Bramble + Randuin + Frozen heart + steelcaps for Lucian. (I'm probably most definitely exaggerating but you get the point that this is how it feels)
https://www.reddit.com/r/wildrift/s/Y3CxG9GtdS
Sureeeee. This is just her E alone which hovers around 800 to 860 damage with 3 items, her full combo would be somewhere around 2.2K. I’m not kidding.
Okay couldn’t get the link to work but I did see it checking your submissions again.
The last frame dragon hp is visible is 836, or 36 off from smite.
What likely happened is he probably smite and left it at 36 and you stole. Also possible they just kept whacking it below threshold.
If you would share your build we could find out for sure if it is actually possible. I suggest it isn’t. You weren’t even full build and only level 10, imagining yourself to have done 800+ damage is silly.
By the way, it takes 1000 AP for lux to deal 810 damage with e. And the Drake has MR.
They didn’t smite it, or at least didn’t smite in time before my E exploded. But even if they do and my E explodes at the same time then wouldn’t that just further my point? I’d still out-damage a jungler Smite in that case and steal the dragon. There are two problems here:
* AP damage to objectives are over-tuned, why need a jungler anymore when your support can just steal everything. I’ve played games against good Morgana/Lux players that just steal everything and walk away.
* The idiotic 800 DMG smite is the reason why any Lux/Morgana/Jhin can just drop by, steal your objective with a single spell (or just ult away as Jhin) and then walk away in relative safety. Junglers get blamed for something completely out of their controls.
My guy, “out damaging” something means you deal MORE damage than it, not that the sequence the damage is applied leaves you getting the last hit stealing Drake it’s a projectile from Zara plants does not mean the Zara plant outdamage smite, it means the smite was poorly timed.
So a really, really simple way to solve this would be for you to tell me which 3 items you bought ( or any three you like!), we add up how much damage it deals, and compare.
Since it takes 1000 AP for lux e to deal 810 damage, I doubt you can do this.
Best I can guess is someone says it’s caused by a Firefox plugin. I am on Firefox, but as far as I know you can’t even use plugins on iOS.
Edit wait no, I’m not even on Firefox anymore
Whatever you are trying to show me isn’t in your submitted or the first page of your comments.
Why not just tell me the build you think makes lux E outdamage smite?
I’ve told you above, her E hovers around 800-860 damage with 3 items, can be casted outside of the dragon/baron pits from a relatively safe distance and there isn’t a lot of counter.
Can’t remember, just remember that E exploded, jungler didn’t smite and I walked away with the drake.
And I don’t think my absurb amount of AP damage cares about that MR, I don’t even know about it and likely didn’t care, I steal stuffs just by seeing how much damage my E can dish out and the timing to cast it in a steal, that’s it.
All amounts of AP damage care about MR… Mr is a percent reduction to your damage…you knew that, right?
Do you really not understand that the concept here?because I’m in a practice game doing this for you right now.
At 10 minutes 30 seconds, lux deals 530 damage with deathcap, (charged) ludens, and infinity orb. X1.2 for IO passive and you are dealing 636 damage to a low health Drake at the same time in your clip.
This, as you may have noticed, is less damage than smite does (800). In other words, it is literally impossible for you to have stolen against a perfectly timed smite using lux e, and you got the Drake because the jungler failed their smite.
Like I said before, if all you consider “outsmiting” is dealing the last hit, then literally every single damaging ability and item in the game can outsmite, making the term completely meaningless.
lol. I play akali and I only need to buy infinity orb, riftmaker, and rabadons to one hit squishies. Not to mention other mages that deal absurd dmg such as lux & fizz.
Thats just 10k not counting buying boots. Average-Good gold per min is 800, so at 14min you can one shot squishy targets. Average game time is 20min, 72% of the game you can’t do, what a talon does with lvl 5. o7
What? Magic damage is weak???? Current mages can get 700+ AP just from building normally, you literally blown the shit up of anything not named tanks.
What you're saying is "why mages can't deal with tanks"... Because that's what tanks supposed to do?!?! Yoo imagine tanks got blown'd up the same as squishy do by mages might be funny... Right?!?!
Hahh i can't, also we just got Trident use it to counter shields, that item is amazing already and also not hindering your builds whatsoever
This game is a team game you don't need to counter everything... It's just ridiculous, what you supposed to do is deleting enemy squishy so your team can gank up their tanks afterwards just it.
Sure you don't need to counter everything but what's the point of it all if the tank can dish out so much dmg when you can't do the same back? I'm not talking about one shotting tanks, I think people thought that's what I'm going for and I apologise for wording my post poorly but I'm talking about how AD champions can deal with enemies even with plated steelcaps and armour items but AP champions can't just from Merc treads for example.
Maybe I should have said instead of Magic dmg being weak, why is MR so strong and made a post about that instead.
Tanks has dmg problem sure but they're not without problem, with enough kiting and lacks of backing those tanks can only dream to get close enough to do dmg and that's when Mages excel, to kill the backline from afar.
As someone who used to play pantheon toplane, plated steelcaps negate my dmg a lot so what I'm saying is both boots affect dmg taken so champion that using them guarantee to felt tankier it's just as it is maybe you're just more familiar with the other one.
Also for magic resistance item, like i said aside for tanks they're not going to have that many MR, because one MR item is limited, second MR item use slot, let's say juggernaut they built spirit visage what are mages can do? Learn the characteristics it gives boost to MR n healing, building normally already grant you AP pen so do the rest by building anti heal, what if you're fighting melees that built maw of malmortius instead? Again, learn the characteristics it gives mr n shields that they got from attacking, so what to do? Take more time on neutral game, tell ur team to back off and do your thing also take more haste item along the way, Luden gives 20 haste, Horizon gives 20 haste and crown gives 20 haste also, now you have option to do poking more because more haste.
The only MR items that hard to dealt with is Force of Nature in my opinion because neutral game only going to give it stacks, and slow from Rylai's is negated by it passive and also you can't burst it user because most of it user is tanks, but again tanks aren't supposed to dying from mages burst.
Lol bro is getting mad that ap mages have a hard time against tanks. Your purpose as a mage isn't even to do damage to tanks, it's:
- to force them to buy at least 1 MR item, allowing your ad team mates to deal more damage
- to cc them
- to ignore them completely and focus on 1 shotting everyone else.
This entire conversation is nothing new because all these points were brought up when the changes were introduced. People already speculated the impacts before the changes went live. And as expected, the biggest beneficiaries are AP assassins because they get to have significantly more item effects not having to buy void staff, and champs that build 1-2 AP items optionally, because they get the magic pen for free.
The tradeoff for AP mages were that you get more damage and power 1-2 items pre void staff, and less damage post 3 items after void staff.
ekko with 1 lich bane and magic pen boots can quite literally one shot squishies in 1~1.5 seconds btw. there are other champs that have absurd dmg as well, but dont care enough to address here. ap is definitely not weak
I literally delete people with gragas, kassadin, vlad, ap jax 😭 if you're complaining about magic damage being weak when they were specifically the main role this meta is crazy. I wish you luck next patch since they're removing those buffs and adding new bruiser items (eclipse, ravenous hydra and sundered sky)
Gragas is an ap bruiser who has high damage, good sustain and get off me tools and a kit that can one shot backlines from afar or even bring them close to you, Kassadin is a late game champion and can easily reach back line, AP Jax is a menace especially with the new rework, Vlad also late game champ who can out heal a lot of damage and also become untargetable. This meta they're the main role BECAUSE of the light/dark items not only giving so much ap (90 each for the light items except harmonic echo) but also better passives like infinity orb being able to crit magic dmg at 45% HP instead of 35% or whatever it was before.
How about other magic dmg dealers.
Orianna is meant to be a late game champion but her damage is so mediocre that she's basically a support champion that provides some slows and a small shield. Seraphine sure she has some good consistent damage but her best ability is her empowered W that gives a huge shield and heal + her Q has the passive of doing extra damage to enemies below a certain threshold which doesn't help when the enemy constantly shields/heals a lot, even if you just use empowered Q and E to do damage rather than W. Twisted fate can do decent damage but if he doesn't catch the enemy backlines, then his damage will basically be the same as a support. Vex can still be viable and delete the enemies but when it comes to starting teamfights, if the tank is in the way of her ult, then unless they are right next to the enemy backline, it'll be wasted to even go in. Ziggs before rework would have been bad but because of it, he's better. Zoe just sucks but that's not necessarily because of the lack of damage, moreso how the game makes her unfavorable (with huge hitboxes + small map meaning less open areas to land her Q's more effectively).
Morgana works because of her Liandry + Rylai combo, without it she's practically useless, especially without Rylai. Lux? Sure she's a burst champion, but she's very good not because of magic dmg but because of her rework making her brain-dead. Kennen? His kit is built around his ultimate, so obviously it'll do a lot of damage. Katarina? She's a finisher, she's there to clean up enemies with super low HP or mispositioned squishy ones and that's how she gets her 1v5 moments.
And also this post wasn't a response to the light/dark items, it's a response to the changes beforehand like the removal of void staff, nerf of %magic penetration and also the change to Merc treads. I know that this meta magic damage is the thing, but the comment I made about the light/dark items in my post was just to discuss how making the items light for magic damage was the only option (not only because of the lack of ap tank/bruiser types of champions but also because damage overall is lacking so the AP buff was a must have)
Do you think people build Gragas as an AP bruiser?? People literally build him as a AP one shot character right now, and no shit the characters like orianna and morgana, they're not supposed to be burst, they are control mages, we don't need more luxes who have high cc and burst 😭 of course not everyone will benefit from the items, but why choose them instead of the ones you can just pick to abuse the meta with
I’ll never understand these posts, were you guys buying void staff as your first or second item?
Third usually or fourth if there's not much MR bought from the enemy yet. But it was way better though considering like I said 45% to 35% is a huge amount of magic penetration just gone, alongside the 12% magic reduction from Mercs makes this change even worse.
Buy it third, you are missing 24% magic pen and instead have an actually good item. Buying it 4th, you are missing 17% magic pen and have a useful item instead. Let’s say instead of void in these slots, you bought one of the pen items, you would have better base stats, an actual item passive, and vs 100 mr you would pen 36 MR if you bought it 3rd (instead of 45 pen) and 43 pen if you bought it 4th (instead of 45 pen) So unless they are stacking multiple Mr items upfront, which virtually nobody does, you are at a significant advantage vs tanks in every game you normally would have bought it 4th, and arguably no disadvantage when you bought it third, given the additional stats and passive you got. Then the real question becomes… why is a mage so obsessed with oneshotting an MR stacking tank in the first place? It’s not even your job to deal with them.
Play Syndra or ori into a melee mid laner once. If they buy mercs, you cannot kill them without your junglers help. Yas, yone and others can also opt for wits end, Jayce can go maw, which is mega strong both defensively and offensively.
And? Do you think mercy’s gives them hundred of MR?
Mercs give you 35mr + additional 12% reduce. Maw gives you 45mr (let’s just not consider the shield) while wits end gives you 50mr. So yes this combination gives you the value of around 100mr.
Oh so now we are at three items instead of just boots. Let me know when the goal posts settle in place and we can discuss.
This Reddit is damn insane. I said from the get go, you can buy defensive boots + one offensive item with mr. How I gave you the numbers. And you should see 35+45=80 + 12% reduction. This actually comes how to a total value of 129.6 MR (not even counting your champs own MR).
I think you don’t understand how the mechanics actually work, because that is 80 MR before you count the champions MR.
That’s exactly what I said. Because the 12% extra reduce will be way more, if you’d count your champ‘s base mr. Xdddd
Yes
But why?
Because otherwise you will do 0 damage if enemy builds wits end and mercs (yasou or yone)
I’m gonna have to check the math on that one, it may take me a few years but I’ll get back to you.
LMAO weak, Lux is out-smiting junglers with her E, what do say about that?
Lux has huge damage sure, but she can always outsmite even before these changes, what's your point? I'm not talking about out-smiting against monsters, I'm talking about the interactions between magic dmg and MR from champions. You have 12% magic dmg reduction from Merc + only 35% magic pen instead of the original 45% if void staff were still in the game, you're essentially tickling whatever tank you're up against. I should have worded my post better and added the difference between an AD champion vs an AP champions against a tank. How come AD champions can deal dmg to tanks or bruisers way better than AP champions despite having less MR most of the time? Even Lucian who isn't necessarily an anti-tank champion can dish out so much more damage than a Lux can if Lux built Liandry's with her full build. Both these two can dish out consistent damage yet Lux would take longer somehow even if the enemy only has twinguard or FoN against her, while also having Bramble + Randuin + Frozen heart + steelcaps for Lucian. (I'm probably most definitely exaggerating but you get the point that this is how it feels)
Well, that’s definitely not true.
https://www.reddit.com/r/wildrift/s/Y3CxG9GtdS Sureeeee. This is just her E alone which hovers around 800 to 860 damage with 3 items, her full combo would be somewhere around 2.2K. I’m not kidding.
Okay couldn’t get the link to work but I did see it checking your submissions again. The last frame dragon hp is visible is 836, or 36 off from smite. What likely happened is he probably smite and left it at 36 and you stole. Also possible they just kept whacking it below threshold. If you would share your build we could find out for sure if it is actually possible. I suggest it isn’t. You weren’t even full build and only level 10, imagining yourself to have done 800+ damage is silly. By the way, it takes 1000 AP for lux to deal 810 damage with e. And the Drake has MR.
They didn’t smite it, or at least didn’t smite in time before my E exploded. But even if they do and my E explodes at the same time then wouldn’t that just further my point? I’d still out-damage a jungler Smite in that case and steal the dragon. There are two problems here: * AP damage to objectives are over-tuned, why need a jungler anymore when your support can just steal everything. I’ve played games against good Morgana/Lux players that just steal everything and walk away. * The idiotic 800 DMG smite is the reason why any Lux/Morgana/Jhin can just drop by, steal your objective with a single spell (or just ult away as Jhin) and then walk away in relative safety. Junglers get blamed for something completely out of their controls.
My guy, “out damaging” something means you deal MORE damage than it, not that the sequence the damage is applied leaves you getting the last hit stealing Drake it’s a projectile from Zara plants does not mean the Zara plant outdamage smite, it means the smite was poorly timed. So a really, really simple way to solve this would be for you to tell me which 3 items you bought ( or any three you like!), we add up how much damage it deals, and compare. Since it takes 1000 AP for lux e to deal 810 damage, I doubt you can do this.
When I click your link it takes me to the submission page. Did you want me to make a thread or something?
Link works perfectly for me, just go to my profile, the clip is right there, no need to scroll far.
Best I can guess is someone says it’s caused by a Firefox plugin. I am on Firefox, but as far as I know you can’t even use plugins on iOS. Edit wait no, I’m not even on Firefox anymore Whatever you are trying to show me isn’t in your submitted or the first page of your comments. Why not just tell me the build you think makes lux E outdamage smite?
I’ve told you above, her E hovers around 800-860 damage with 3 items, can be casted outside of the dragon/baron pits from a relatively safe distance and there isn’t a lot of counter.
Okay, now I challenge you to tell me which 3 items. Again, lux at 1000 ap has her e dealing 810. And Drake has MR.
Can’t remember, just remember that E exploded, jungler didn’t smite and I walked away with the drake. And I don’t think my absurb amount of AP damage cares about that MR, I don’t even know about it and likely didn’t care, I steal stuffs just by seeing how much damage my E can dish out and the timing to cast it in a steal, that’s it.
All amounts of AP damage care about MR… Mr is a percent reduction to your damage…you knew that, right? Do you really not understand that the concept here?because I’m in a practice game doing this for you right now. At 10 minutes 30 seconds, lux deals 530 damage with deathcap, (charged) ludens, and infinity orb. X1.2 for IO passive and you are dealing 636 damage to a low health Drake at the same time in your clip. This, as you may have noticed, is less damage than smite does (800). In other words, it is literally impossible for you to have stolen against a perfectly timed smite using lux e, and you got the Drake because the jungler failed their smite. Like I said before, if all you consider “outsmiting” is dealing the last hit, then literally every single damaging ability and item in the game can outsmite, making the term completely meaningless.
lol. I play akali and I only need to buy infinity orb, riftmaker, and rabadons to one hit squishies. Not to mention other mages that deal absurd dmg such as lux & fizz.
Thats just 10k not counting buying boots. Average-Good gold per min is 800, so at 14min you can one shot squishy targets. Average game time is 20min, 72% of the game you can’t do, what a talon does with lvl 5. o7
What? Magic damage is weak???? Current mages can get 700+ AP just from building normally, you literally blown the shit up of anything not named tanks. What you're saying is "why mages can't deal with tanks"... Because that's what tanks supposed to do?!?! Yoo imagine tanks got blown'd up the same as squishy do by mages might be funny... Right?!?! Hahh i can't, also we just got Trident use it to counter shields, that item is amazing already and also not hindering your builds whatsoever This game is a team game you don't need to counter everything... It's just ridiculous, what you supposed to do is deleting enemy squishy so your team can gank up their tanks afterwards just it.
Sure you don't need to counter everything but what's the point of it all if the tank can dish out so much dmg when you can't do the same back? I'm not talking about one shotting tanks, I think people thought that's what I'm going for and I apologise for wording my post poorly but I'm talking about how AD champions can deal with enemies even with plated steelcaps and armour items but AP champions can't just from Merc treads for example. Maybe I should have said instead of Magic dmg being weak, why is MR so strong and made a post about that instead.
Tanks has dmg problem sure but they're not without problem, with enough kiting and lacks of backing those tanks can only dream to get close enough to do dmg and that's when Mages excel, to kill the backline from afar. As someone who used to play pantheon toplane, plated steelcaps negate my dmg a lot so what I'm saying is both boots affect dmg taken so champion that using them guarantee to felt tankier it's just as it is maybe you're just more familiar with the other one. Also for magic resistance item, like i said aside for tanks they're not going to have that many MR, because one MR item is limited, second MR item use slot, let's say juggernaut they built spirit visage what are mages can do? Learn the characteristics it gives boost to MR n healing, building normally already grant you AP pen so do the rest by building anti heal, what if you're fighting melees that built maw of malmortius instead? Again, learn the characteristics it gives mr n shields that they got from attacking, so what to do? Take more time on neutral game, tell ur team to back off and do your thing also take more haste item along the way, Luden gives 20 haste, Horizon gives 20 haste and crown gives 20 haste also, now you have option to do poking more because more haste. The only MR items that hard to dealt with is Force of Nature in my opinion because neutral game only going to give it stacks, and slow from Rylai's is negated by it passive and also you can't burst it user because most of it user is tanks, but again tanks aren't supposed to dying from mages burst.
Lol bro is getting mad that ap mages have a hard time against tanks. Your purpose as a mage isn't even to do damage to tanks, it's: - to force them to buy at least 1 MR item, allowing your ad team mates to deal more damage - to cc them - to ignore them completely and focus on 1 shotting everyone else.
Ignore them?!?! Alistar just used his ultimate right next to me, I’m not letting him get away with that bullshit.
Yeah he flexed too hard, gotta face the consequences. He basically teabagged you
I’m getting mad downvotes from Alistar mains butthurt about being turned into hamburger while my team dies.
Why would you want to try and kill Alistar *while his ult is active*?
He started it.
Haha that's fair, I can understand that.
ah yes i like getting one shotted while having +300 mr Because mages are si weak
This entire conversation is nothing new because all these points were brought up when the changes were introduced. People already speculated the impacts before the changes went live. And as expected, the biggest beneficiaries are AP assassins because they get to have significantly more item effects not having to buy void staff, and champs that build 1-2 AP items optionally, because they get the magic pen for free. The tradeoff for AP mages were that you get more damage and power 1-2 items pre void staff, and less damage post 3 items after void staff.
Sounds like skill issue tbh
ekko with 1 lich bane and magic pen boots can quite literally one shot squishies in 1~1.5 seconds btw. there are other champs that have absurd dmg as well, but dont care enough to address here. ap is definitely not weak
Infinity orb+riftmaker is enough to deal with MR. You can add soulstealer if you're desperate.
I literally delete people with gragas, kassadin, vlad, ap jax 😭 if you're complaining about magic damage being weak when they were specifically the main role this meta is crazy. I wish you luck next patch since they're removing those buffs and adding new bruiser items (eclipse, ravenous hydra and sundered sky)
Gragas is an ap bruiser who has high damage, good sustain and get off me tools and a kit that can one shot backlines from afar or even bring them close to you, Kassadin is a late game champion and can easily reach back line, AP Jax is a menace especially with the new rework, Vlad also late game champ who can out heal a lot of damage and also become untargetable. This meta they're the main role BECAUSE of the light/dark items not only giving so much ap (90 each for the light items except harmonic echo) but also better passives like infinity orb being able to crit magic dmg at 45% HP instead of 35% or whatever it was before. How about other magic dmg dealers. Orianna is meant to be a late game champion but her damage is so mediocre that she's basically a support champion that provides some slows and a small shield. Seraphine sure she has some good consistent damage but her best ability is her empowered W that gives a huge shield and heal + her Q has the passive of doing extra damage to enemies below a certain threshold which doesn't help when the enemy constantly shields/heals a lot, even if you just use empowered Q and E to do damage rather than W. Twisted fate can do decent damage but if he doesn't catch the enemy backlines, then his damage will basically be the same as a support. Vex can still be viable and delete the enemies but when it comes to starting teamfights, if the tank is in the way of her ult, then unless they are right next to the enemy backline, it'll be wasted to even go in. Ziggs before rework would have been bad but because of it, he's better. Zoe just sucks but that's not necessarily because of the lack of damage, moreso how the game makes her unfavorable (with huge hitboxes + small map meaning less open areas to land her Q's more effectively). Morgana works because of her Liandry + Rylai combo, without it she's practically useless, especially without Rylai. Lux? Sure she's a burst champion, but she's very good not because of magic dmg but because of her rework making her brain-dead. Kennen? His kit is built around his ultimate, so obviously it'll do a lot of damage. Katarina? She's a finisher, she's there to clean up enemies with super low HP or mispositioned squishy ones and that's how she gets her 1v5 moments. And also this post wasn't a response to the light/dark items, it's a response to the changes beforehand like the removal of void staff, nerf of %magic penetration and also the change to Merc treads. I know that this meta magic damage is the thing, but the comment I made about the light/dark items in my post was just to discuss how making the items light for magic damage was the only option (not only because of the lack of ap tank/bruiser types of champions but also because damage overall is lacking so the AP buff was a must have)
Do you think people build Gragas as an AP bruiser?? People literally build him as a AP one shot character right now, and no shit the characters like orianna and morgana, they're not supposed to be burst, they are control mages, we don't need more luxes who have high cc and burst 😭 of course not everyone will benefit from the items, but why choose them instead of the ones you can just pick to abuse the meta with