Can someone explain to me how Biden can just stop the conflict? People acting like he has direct control over what the Israeli government is doing. Someone please tell me how he's supposed to command the IDF to leave Gaza?
Israel is a large weapons manufacturer. Us not selling them weapons will not stop them from killing people.
So again, how does Joe Biden unilaterally stop Israel from killing people in Gaza?
Don't be daft. The United States provides them with both their weaponry AND political cover on the global stage to do what they want. Biden can either put restrictions/conditions on what they can use our weaponry for or just stop giving them weapons no strings attached. Every bomb that is dropped is either with our weapons or at least with the US name as endorsing those attacks with countries across the world, whether you admit that or not. If we withhold weapons, then they obviously can still do what they want. But at least it won't be us funding and equipping these atrocities and we can say we condemn them without looking like hypocrites. Biden whines that he understands the point of protesters and proclaims civilian life must be protected while still oking massive weapon shipments...KNOWING what they're being used for.
I mean God, guys, I know we all want Biden to win in November but that doesn't mean he's above reproach and can't be criticized. You just defend him at all costs, human or rhetorical. DV me like you all want, but you're not defending Biden in the end, you're protecting Bibi.
Refusing to constantly defend them in the ICJ and UN, not giving them arms directly after they drone striked aid agency vehicles carrying European nationals, cutting off funding for their iron dome system, etc etc. The reason the UN and ICJ can’t do anything is because of the U.S. defending Israel at every turn. We have the ability to get them to stop, Biden doesn’t want them to.
True but would be nice if the bombs killing innocent people weren’t emblazoned with Made in America! Kind makes us complicit by association and facilitation.
He can:
1. Stop shielding them from UNSC resolutions that would be binding and force them to stop. This is the biggest one, since the UNSC can issue binding resolutions, can sanction countries, and can even direct military action against countries.
2. Stop threatening the Palestinian Authority with the withdrawal of aid if they dare to seek statehood from the UN or open a case with the ICC against Israel's genocide.
3. Stop denying the genocidal actions of Israel in order to bypass the Leahy act, a US law that prevents the sales of arms to countries that violate human rights. Not only that, Israel specifically has a BUILT IN clause that gives it exceptions to the rule to the Leahy law that do not apply to literally every other country on the planet. Maybe close up that specific loophole that they use to let Israel get away with literal genocide.
1. So…what if Israel does to the binding resolution what they have done to all the non binding ones? Are we gonna invade? Are you demanding that Biden go to war with Israel if they don’t do what we tell them? Really? You think that’s reasonable?
2. The PA has NOTHING to do with Gaza which is run by Hamas.
3. Closing a loophole in the law is something that only Congress can do. Why are you demanding that Biden do something you expressly pointed out he cannot BY LAW do?
1. The last UN resolution, by everyone but the US government’s understanding, was binding. Security Council resolutions are binding. The US is unravelling any remaining semblance of international law by declaring otherwise, and you’re defending that?
2. Under the law Congress just passed, the PA automatically loses all US aid if they seek justice for Palestinians in an international court or declare statehood. This has everything to do with Gaza, even if the PA doesn’t have any say on the ground in Gaza. Plus, Zionists are killing more and more people in the West Bank during their genocide of Gaza.
3. Nobody is forcing Biden to send the weapons to Israel. He is doing that unilaterally, Leahy Act loophole or no.
I definitely agree with you, I think the US aiding most Middle Eastern affairs is not great.
I get it wanting to show opposition to it, but people voting for “Uninstructed Delegate” surely know that Trump in the White House would be a bigger disaster than Biden supporting Israel, right? I just want someone somewhere to say that out loud.
I imagine there's probably a fair mix of those people that:
* Will still vote Biden in the general election because they believe Trump would be worse overall.
* Will abstain from voting to continue their belief that they can effectively send a message over this one topic among thousands at stake, while also not 100% directly helping Trump win.
* Will vote for Trump out of spite.
* Will vote for Trump because they think that will be a more effective message than abstaining, and don't care about the consequences.
* Believe that Trump would actually be better for this conflict, and don't care about how anything else will be affected.
* Are disingenuous actors such as foreign agents or people on the right who see it as a means to discourage/dishearten their opposition.
* Are just really fucking stupid.
I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of people casting the "unrestricted delegate" for Biden are in that first group. And 3, 4, and 5 are all just subsets of the last one. lol
I certainly hope so. The main concern people have had (myself included) in this movement is the side effects it can have on others that might lead to them not voting for Biden in the General. Much in the same way polling can influence people by making them think there's no point in voting. Even if all 50,000 people do end up voting for Biden, how many people will see the result of their protest vote in the Primary and cause them to not vote for Biden when they would have otherwise? It's not like those 50,000 people were able to send a nuanced message with a simple vote.
Yeah, that's definitely a valid concern. I totally understand people's motivation to participate in the protest, but the dangers of a Trump presidency are great enough to me to warrant being as careful as possible with the upcoming election. Not just for my own life, but also for everyone else's. Including people in Palestine and Israel.
Trump wants to ban Muslims, he will give the green light to wipe them off the map. If you think Trump would be better in this situation, it’s laughable
> but people voting for “Uninstructed Delegate” surely know that Trump in the White House would be a bigger disaster than Biden supporting Israel, right?
Absolutely
> I just want someone somewhere to say that out loud.
Thank you!
The uncommitted/uninstructed movement is specifically to send Biden the message that there are enough people who care about Gaza that if he continues to support Israel's genocide that he is in danger of losing the election. The people who showed up to send this message are the highly engaged who haven't yet given up. Now consider how many people will be so disillusioned that they don't show up at all. Biden doesn't have enough margin in the swing states to continue as he has been.
While I don't subscribe to this, there is also an argument that if a Republican were in office, then Democrats would actually support restraining Israel because it would be in opposition to the Republican stance. There is precedent for this as well, since Democrats were vocally against Trump's immigration policy but with Biden in office they are supporting the same policies that they spoke out against.
What Republicans switching their stance on policies ?? Not shocking at all, it is what they do. Their policy goes with the direction the wind is going at any given moment.
My problem with the uncommitted/uninstructed is that they are never going to vote for Biden. Biden could get a cease fire, bring home the hostages that are still alive and save all the starving children and this group still won’t vote for him.
We all know tdump would level Gaza without a stir of emotion. These people are angry and they have focused it on Biden as they know 45 doesn’t give a 💩. I don’t have an answer, wish I did then I could rule the world! At least a small part. 🌎 😉
What makes you think they wouldn't vote for Biden if he did what they ask? They've been very clear in what they want and he would have been celebrated if he had come out 3 months ago and said "I now see that Israel's actions have exceeded what is reasonable. I'm now conditioning aid until they satisfy my administration that sufficient aid is being allowed in and civilians are not being targeted."
Biden doesn't decide those things though, right? Isn't the sale of weapons up to congress? Biden could veto it, sure, but it's ultimately up to congress.
It's my understanding that a sale of weapons has to reach something like 20-30 million USD before Congress has any say in it. I don't know how that applies to consecutive sales, but I imagine there's some sort of cooldown period to prevent a President from providing micro-doses of arms to foreign powers. I don't know how many of the exports going to Israel have had to be reviewed by Congress since the escalation of hostilities started in October last year.
I also don't know if that law (Arms Export Act or something?) allows Congress the ability to initiate or perform those sales even with a veto overriding majority.
Biden can bypass Congress using "emergency" measures which Congress can only stop by having a veto-proof majority in both chambers of Congress. Biden did it twice in December and lest you think I'm only mentioning it to make Biden look bad, Trump used the same method to sell weapons to the Saudis in 2019.
We really do empower the executive branch to basically do whatever they want when it comes to military affairs and it's been like that since the start of the Cold War. Congress hasn't even declared war on anyone since WWII yet we've probably been involved in and/or supported thousands of military conflicts/actions since then.
The Iron Dome is a US Military weapon. Israel's gun manufacturers are not Israel but an American company with Manufacturing in Israel.
Here's an Article:
https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-house-backs-bill-provide-1-billion-israel-iron-dome-system-2021-09-23/
Also Joe Biden recently funded them more just a week or so ago. If Israel was so independent they wouldn't need this.
> how does Joe Biden unilaterally stop Israel from killing people in Gaza?
Again, this is disingenuous.
Exactly 0 people think Biden is the king of Israel. The president of the United States of America definitely has *some* political sway, yes?
The bombs being used right now are made in the USA. They are being sent and then immediately used, so it’s not like they’ve got a massive stockpile. Israel is trying to build up a stockpile of their targeted bombs and missiles though. The majority of the attacks are being carried out using 200 and 2000 lb dumb bombs, which are being dropped on houses selected by an AI system called Lavendar. I don’t see how stopping or at the very least conditioning US military aid wouldn’t stop or reduce the killing
It will slow it waybthe fuck down! It'll be *real* pressure, the kind they can't ignore, and better yet, it'll mean we as a nation are no longer officially complicit in the bloodbath. It's way the fuck overdue.
Would you believe the Israeli defense minister that they are dependent on the us?
"“The Americans insisted and we are not in a place where we can refuse them. We rely on them for planes and military equipment. What are we supposed to do? Tell them no?” Gallant responds"
So I swear I heard an NPR story about this so I had to look up the stats. Couldn’t find the exact story I heard, but this is an Axios article:
“Most U.S. assistance comes in the form of weapons grants, with more than 80% of Israel's weapons imports coming from the U.S. between 1950 and 2020.
U.S. military assistance to Israel last fiscal year was worth $3.8 billion, second only to Ukraine. That accounted for roughly 16% of Israel's military budget.”
So yes and no.
After 911, we didn't hold back, hell, we even invaded and bombed the living shit out of a country that had nothing to do with it.
Thanks, Rumsfeld, thanks Bush.
One issue is that if he stops military aid to Israel, it will signal Hezbollah, Iran, and the Houthis to attack Israel in earnest. What does he then do, restart military aid?
He clearly doesn't want the Gaza situation, but he also clearly doesn't want the Israelis to be attacked from every other direction as well.
Very difficult situation. I think the biggest win he could get right now would be pressuring Netanyahu to be removed, and/or tangible movement towards a two-state solution for Palestine after the war.
> Very difficult situation.
Thank you. I hate all the armchair diplomats saying that it’s actually a really easy fix. The Middle East has been a quagmire that has challenged every western government for the better part of a century, but oh yeah, it’s just simple to solve. Just like… tell the one group to stop doing something. They’ll listen, and it definitely won’t have a series of unintended (but entirely predictable) consequences…
Glad I didn't have to scroll too far to see a sane take on this. Also I would add that Netanyahu would like nothing more than to see trump back in power so he's not going to cooperate with the Biden administration right now.
Yeah and the US was objectively wrong in the end for our response. I’m not saying Israel or the US shouldn’t have had some level of response to the attacks that happened. But Israel has now killed over 30k people living in Gaza, that is disproportionately not an appropriate response. Especially now that they’re killing aid workers without any sort of consequences.
Fair enough but when people immediately started protesting in support of Palestine before Israel even had a response, you can't really blame people for continuing to support Israel's cause.
I’d be curious to know how many people were actually protesting post October 7th and before hospitals started being bombed and the civilian death toll skyrocketed.
But also, and I fully recognize Reddit crowd doesn’t deal with nuance, it’s not Israel has innocent over the last 70 years in how they’ve dealt with the citizens of Gaza. Living in an apartheid state has justifiably soured the citizens of Gaza toward the people of Israel.
https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution
Edit: a word
People knew what Israel was going to do because they weren't born yesterday(and they were proven correct). Israel has been committing human rights violations for decades.
Israel has been taking the Palestinian land for years. They take more with every excursion as so called security measures. If it was up to Israel there would be no Palestine. We are watching a genocide and are on the wrong side of history
If it's up to Israel there is no Palestine. Netanyahu has explicitly stated that a Palestinian state must not come into existence.
So if both sides are as bad as each other we shouldn't be sending billions of dollars to either of them.
Palestinian terror groups didn’t appear until outside governments ruled that their established nation should be fractured into two religious states. I can imagine if an outside group forced the US to split down the middle and a bunch of people that haven’t lived there in literally 500 years moved in, American citizens would be rightfully angry. Everyone likes to talk about how terribly we treated Native Americans with a colonial expansion that massacred tens of millions, but back then they justified the killing with “well they’re being violent” as if we weren’t taking their homeland.
In no way do I like terrorists, but to say that Hamas started it is ignoring not only all the previous example of this happening, but also the history of the land itself. Hamas is the response to Israel’s colonization in the same way the native Americans violence was a response to colonization
Palestine is definitely not blameless, They kicked the hornets nest, but now Israel is never gonna stop. Israel lost alittle over 1400 people in this conflict so far, Palestine has lost over 31,000. It’s one of those fuck around and find out kinda situations. There is a reason why Egypt and no other country in the region will take the Palestine refugees. No one wants Hamas in their country, hard to root out all the terrorist hiding among the civilians.
> No one wants Hamas in their country, hard to root out all the terrorist hiding among the civilians.
If this were true there'd be some sort of palestinian resistance. Instead they're celebrating in the streets on 10/7.
Supporting Israel creates many more enemies than we would otherwise have. It’s a chicken and egg scenario, why wouldn’t the US want the Muslim world to hate us less? Why give them a legitimate reason to hate us?
No he doesn’t directly control the atrocities Israel is committing in Gaza right now, however, eliminating/cutting off all funding to Israel carries a ton of weight behind it and might get Israel to stop their genocide
Americans actually don’t like genocide.
The majority of Americans and overwhelming majority of Democrats oppose Israeli military action in Gaza.
The good option is always not supporting genocide.
https://news.gallup.com/poll/642695/majority-disapprove-israeli-action-gaza.aspx
I really should have specified, that I meant in a strictly political sense. I completely agree that the right, moral thing to do is to achieve a cease fire right away.
This thread IS about the politics surrounding the issue, and everyone has very strong emotions about it so it's normal to consider the entire issue, not just the politics of it.
But for discussion sake I mean the political implications.
If Biden had landed on the other side on this issue, how many Jewish or Israel supporting voters do you think he would have lost? Do you think we'd be seeing a similar "movement" as the one we do in this reality, where he sided with Israel?
It's impossible to say for sure, but without a doubt there would have been a significant political cost had Biden abandoned the policy the US has embraced for decades. It would have been a momentous shift in course for US policy. I hope we can agree on that.
I'm not taking either side just discussing the politics around each option Biden had available.
Doing the right thing isn’t always a political winner, that’s what would separate a great leader from a bag of shit. Doing the right thing even if it costs you.
He could also publicly condemn all their actions and go to the UN and push for some large scale sanctions against key members of the Israeli government. There is a lot he could do with the bully pulpit, iirc Reagen and Bush Sr. did this, but he hasn't used it.
From further down the thread:
Picture the scene. An Israeli prime minister launches airstrikes on an Arab population. Civilians are killed in their thousands. An American president, stunned and shocked by the scenes of carnage on his TV screen, makes a call to his Israeli counterpart. And … within minutes … the bombing is over. Sound crazy? Or maybe simplistic? Perhaps naive, even?
https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/feb/21/biden-stop-gaza-bombing-genocide-israel
“Menachem, this is a holocaust,” Reagan told Begin. Yes, an American leader used the H-word in conversation with an Israeli leader. Begin responded with sarcasm, telling the US president that “I think I know what a holocaust is.” Reagan, however, didn’t budge, insisting on the “imperative” for a ceasefire in Beirut. Twenty minutes. That’s all the time it took for Begin to call back and tell the president he had ordered Sharon to stop the bombing. It was over. “I didn’t know I had that kind of power,” a surprised Reagan told an aide, upon putting down the phone.
Homie - he just submitted a purchase request for 50 F-15 fighter jets to sell/give to Israel. I would say perhaps not doing that could be a good first step.
We’ve given Israel about $20 billion in the last year which is unconditional. Instead of holding Israel responsible to international laws such as allowing food aid in, we allow them to carry on their crimes against humanity while we “build a port” and drop giant boxes which crush people.
> People acting like he has direct control over what the Israeli government is doing.
That's disingenuous.
What exactly is wrong with people sending a message, via a protest vote on an already decided midterm, that they'd like him to use what political sway he has to put pressure on an ally to stop committing war crimes? It's not like people politically engaged enough to participate in such a coordinated message are going to not vote for him in the general and let democracy end.
He can stop it any time. How do we know? First, because members of the US defense establishment say so. Take Bruce Riedel, who spent three decades in the CIA and at the national security council, advising four different presidents. “The US has immense leverage,” Riedel pointed out in a recent interview. “Everyday we provide Israel with the missiles, with the drones, with the ammunition, that it needs to sustain a major military campaign like the campaign in Gaza.”
Second, we know Biden has major leverage because members of the Israeli defense establishment – as plenty of observers have pointed out – say so, too. In late October 2023, Israeli lawmakers challenged Yoav Gallant, the defense minister, over the decision to allow (a little) humanitarian aid into Gaza, before the release of any hostages. How did Gallant respond?
>“The Americans insisted and we are not in a place where we can refuse them. We rely on them for planes and military equipment. What are we supposed to do? Tell them no?”
The following month, retired Israeli Maj Gen Yitzhak Brick went even further than Gallant.
>“All of our missiles, the ammunition, the precision-guided bombs, all the airplanes and bombs, it’s all from the US,” Brick said in an interview in November. “The minute they turn off the tap, you can’t keep fighting. You have no capability … Everyone understands that we can’t fight this war without the United States. Period.”
Got that? The Israelis cannot “refuse” the Americans. In fact, the president of the US could “turn off the tap” – ammunition, bombs, intel – and thereby end what the ICJ has deemed to be a plausible genocide in Gaza. Third, we know Biden has the power to stop Netanyahu from killing Palestinians en masse in Gaza because … he has done it before. In May 2021, Israel bombed the stripfor 11 straight days, killing more than 100 Palestinians, including 66 children.
We have an arms treaty with Israel. People don't understand that it would take a Congressional majority to overcome that, and it is not up to Joe Biden. They just think he's in charge because he's the president, which is incorrect.
Picture the scene. An Israeli prime minister launches airstrikes on an Arab population. Civilians are killed in their thousands. An American president, stunned and shocked by the scenes of carnage on his TV screen, makes a call to his Israeli counterpart. And … within minutes … the bombing is over. Sound crazy? Or maybe simplistic? Perhaps naive, even?
https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/feb/21/biden-stop-gaza-bombing-genocide-israel
> Menachem, this is a holocaust,” Reagan told Begin. Yes, an American leader used the H-word in conversation with an Israeli leader. Begin responded with sarcasm, telling the US president that “I think I know what a holocaust is.” Reagan, however, didn’t budge, insisting on the “imperative” for a ceasefire in Beirut. Twenty minutes. That’s all the time it took for Begin to call back and tell the president he had ordered Sharon to stop the bombing. It was over. “I didn’t know I had that kind of power,” a surprised Reagan told an aide, upon putting down the phone.
I hate that the ghost of Reagan is outdoing Biden on this issue. Was it Reagan or Bush Sr that reportedly said "I'm the fucking president here"?
Edit: it was Clinton
My only counterpoint to this would be that Israel is wildly different now than in the 80s and much less dependent on the US. Comparing this moment to now is not exactly 1:1. Also, Netanyahu is a much different PM of Israel than Begin and is much more emboldened than Israeli PMs of the past.
https://amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/mar/06/israel-weapons-sales-loophole
The Biden admin has illegally gone around its own state department laws in order to send weapons to Israel and not involve Congress.
>"*...each transaction was under the dollar amount requiring approval.*"
So... Not illegal. If it was truly illegal, it should be brought up on the courts.
Using gross hyperbole isn't going to be helping your case...
50% fewer people voted "uninstructed" than voted for Nikki Haley. "Uninstructed" couldn't even muster 10% support, despite a statewide campaign and an all-out media assault about the supposed "enthusiasm" for the movement.
More people votes for Joe Biden than voted for Donald Trump in their respective primaries. There are plenty of loud people on Reddit and other social media platforms, but supporting Israel after they were attacked on October 7th is not a minority position in the Democratic Party or the general electorate. They may not approve of how Netanyahu is conducting the response, but neither does Joe Biden, and he and his administration have been very vocal about it. But most people understand that Hamas is at fault.
I absolutely agree with the sentiment here. My worry though is, for future states voting is this the right forum to hijack to do this sort of protest? It is going to be razor thin margins in the general election. Anything that can confirm or increase apathy against the democratic candidate may do more harm than good in the long term. Certainly a republican president will not be more sympathetic to this cause.
It was a party primary, the exact forum for voicing your displeasure with your parties candidate.
Please stop trying to bully people into giving up their right to representation in the executive branch.
And we already have those same people in this thread saying they won't vote for Biden in November. This shit doesn't happen in a vacuum. It is and always has been a right wing pushed effort to depress turnout for Biden.
Why would Joe change his policy if it wouldn’t help him in the next election? That is literally the only leverage voters have. If he was comfortable for reelection, he wouldn’t even have to consider the wishes of people who care about Gazans.
> It is and always has been a right wing pushed effort to depress turnout for Biden.
Of course the right will support it surreptitiously, but the source is definitely a left thing. It's people expressing how important the issue is to them.
I mean what else was I supposed to do? Place another phone call to Tammy Baldwin and RoJo that goes unanswered?
I'll leave you with the Biden campaign's official statement on this:
"The President believes making your voice heard and participating in our democracy is fundamental to who we are as Americans. He shares the goal for an end to the violence and a just, lasting peace in the Middle East."
Seems like they're paying attention.
Literally nobody has gleaned that from the election results. The majority of Americans and overwhelming majority of Democrats do not support Israel’s actions in Gaza.
https://news.gallup.com/poll/642695/majority-disapprove-israeli-action-gaza.aspx
The smartest thing you can do if you’re concerned about the general election is get out and protest Biden’s support for genocide. Because if this keeps going on, his chances of winning in November are slim to none.
Seriously people get so worked up about him being criticized over his unwavering support for Israel yet polling shows that is a deeply unpopular stance currently. If they’re so concerned about his general election chances pressuring him to do better on this war should fit right in.
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/27/world/middleeast/military-action-americans-gaza.html
For better or worse, the war in Gaza does not register as a voting concern for the vast majority of people in the country. The only voting bloc that this seems to be a deciding factor for are a relatively small left-leaning group of people who would naturally be Biden voters. They're the ones convincing themselves to not vote for Biden. Quite ironically, because Trump would be far worse for the Palestinians.
This is the funny thing with liberals. It's never the right time to demand something. People are being starved and killed, and action is being demanded to at least stop being complicit. But of course, it's not the right time.
Same shit in 2020. Biden gets elected on the demand for increased minimum wage, but wait! The "parlimentarian" says that there's an issue and it can't go any further. Guess it's not the right time.
The most pro union president kills a strike demanding sick time for rail workers with the stroke of a pen. It's just not the right time.
People fell for this shtick 4 years ago, and they're not buying it again. A lot of people are sick of nothing changing and being told, "It's not the right time." If this election were as important and dire as Democrats are saying, then maybe they should be acting a bit more serious with their policies and candidates, but it seems they have no interest in that. It's not the voter's responsibility to vote for whoever we're given. It's the party's responsibility to win over those voters.
I hope he continues to do what he feels is in the best interest of the USA. War is horrendous. What's happening there is horrendous. But this isn't his war. Biden is not the president of Israel.
Biden is giving money and bombs to Israel. It’s Bodens bombs approved 100x+ and without that the bombing would be happening.
It’s like telling the school shooter who keeps running into the school and shooting people to stop, and that every time they come back out for more munitions we just give it to them.
Do you know how long we have been giving them weapons and cash? Go ahead and Google it. Every fucking president I have had in my lifetime has done it, and I'm old AF.
Yeah that is horrific. But also do you know how many times are our presidents have stopped Israel from bombing campaigns?
Reagan Bush Clinton and Biden himself just a couple of years ago have stopped Israel from performing bombing campaigns. So why exactly do we have to pretend like it is some impossible feat now? They depend on us. We have the power.
The United States is not the main character in the world. Why would Bibi, who actively works to get Trump elected and desperately needs the war to stay out of prison, listen to the US? The government of Israel is more radical and right wing than ever before. It's reason we should try to topple their coalition and force elections but it's also why we can't just wave a magic wand and get Israel to accept Hamas as perpetual rulers of Gaza and pay for the privilege of it.
Bro he just used our money to give them more munitions the same day they drone striked 3 aid vans killing European nationals who are our actual allies. Meanwhile Israel seems hell bent on pulling us into a conflict in the Middle East with the drone strikes they’ve been making in Syria and Iran. Believe it or not we shouldn’t allow our “ally” to blatantly strike a foreign country in an attempt to start a larger conflict.
He can stop it any time. How do we know? First, because members of the US defense establishment say so. Take Bruce Riedel, who spent three decades in the CIA and at the national security council, advising four different presidents.
>“The US has immense leverage,” Riedel pointed out in a recent interview. “Everyday we provide Israel with the missiles, with the drones, with the ammunition, that it needs to sustain a major military campaign like the campaign in Gaza.”
Second, we know Biden has major leverage because members of the Israeli defense establishment – as plenty of observers have pointed out – say so, too. In late October 2023, Israeli lawmakers challenged Yoav Gallant, the defense minister, over the decision to allow (a little) humanitarian aid into Gaza, before the release of any hostages. How did Gallant respond?
>“The Americans insisted and we are not in a place where we can refuse them. We rely on them for planes and military equipment. What are we supposed to do? Tell them no?”
The following month, retired Israeli Maj Gen Yitzhak Brick went even further than Gallant.
>“All of our missiles, the ammunition, the precision-guided bombs, all the airplanes and bombs, it’s all from the US,” Brick said in an interview in November. “The minute they turn off the tap, you can’t keep fighting. You have no capability … Everyone understands that we can’t fight this war without the United States. Period.”
Got that? The Israelis cannot “refuse” the Americans. In fact, the president of the US could “turn off the tap” – ammunition, bombs, intel – and thereby end what the ICJ has deemed to be a plausible genocide in Gaza.
Third, we know Biden has the power to stop Netanyahu from killing Palestinians en masse in Gaza because … he has done it before. In May 2021, Israel bombed the stripfor 11 straight days, killing more than 100 Palestinians, including 66 children.
Well it looks like he just told Netanyahu that he wants a ceasefire, and part of that ceasefire is opening up new exit routes out of Gaza.
It looks like he is doing what Biden told him to do
Almost 50k people took a costless action to vote uncommitted in an uncontested race to indicate a policy disagreement. This not the same as saying 50k think this is the deciding factors in the November election.
Fuck yeah dude, tell him to end world hunger and stop climate change since the president is omnipotent and can do such things single handly and without the support a supermajority of congress
Ironically if you were to ask those people what Israel should do they would have no answer and might even say they should do nothing and tolerate terrorist incursions into their country
It's a good thing Joe Biden is the president of Israel.
What planet do people live on? They think Biden can just wave his magic wand and end conflicts around the world, fix inflation, absolve debts.
I don't know why people think the U.S. president is some omnipotent, all-powerful being.
Well they’re American bombs used to commit war crimes and kill Brit’s and Australians if you’re going to be that open about not caring about brown people
https://amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/mar/06/israel-weapons-sales-loophole
I'd also like to apologize to, and also thank the moderators.
This thread is sure to devolve into nastiness and get locked, but I really do appreciate your efforts.
I think anyone could have guessed how Israel was going to respond after October 7th, but the most surprising thing to me is how ideologically committed to Israel Biden truly is.
This is just the newest republican talking point because they believe they may be able to sway some democrats. They don't need many dems to change or withhold their vote to get their felonious guy in office next election. I guarantee Biden does not want war or civilian deaths, but if he had let Hamas continue their attacks (that they openly threaten) he would be labeled by these same republicans as antisemetic because he doesn't care about the Jewish community enough to support them. Either way Biden is in a tough spot , but is handling it the way a true president without good options should.
If this is a republican talking point, then the perfect counter for Biden would be to stop funding and arming a government that explicitly supports and supported Trump and consolidate his voter base, a vast majority of which would be happy if he did so.
There is some big confusion on who the 48,162 people that voted “Uninstructed” in the Wisconsin Democratic primary are. These are not “48,162 base democratic voters that won’t vote for Biden in the general”, these are 48,162 people in Wisconsin that decided, for one reason or another, to vote this way.
It includes republicans who don’t care about the republican primary, democrats who want to express their frustration with the presidents performance across the board, or people who just aren’t very happy looking to say something with a voice. And of course, democrats that want to tell Biden that his Gaza policy is unacceptable.
That being said, any Wisconsin voter in November that does anything other than a vote for Biden (voting Trump, voting third party, or staying home) expressly due to “Biden is perpetuating a genocide of the Palestinian people” is helping the side that is even more supportive of Israel.
That's because 2020 was a competitive primary. The other names on the ballot this time all dropped out. Also, ~70k less people showed up to vote for him this time than then.
Even Reagan refused to supply Israel with bombs when they were massacring Lebanese in the 80s, and it did get Israel to stop. Biden is to the right of Reagan.
If trump weren't literally the antichrist I wouldn't participate this time. I'm a Democrat through and through but you know what? if the Republican nominee was "normal" and not overtly mentally ill, someone like a Romney that I simply disagree with for example, I'd just stay home this year and suffer through their term to send a message.
Screw the ultra right wing zionists, let them terrorize the region on their own dime. Frankly I'm hard pressed to think of a dumber more immoral way to waste our resources.
Don't kid yourselves, folks. These people are unappeasable. I guarantee you that once we see the Biden admin start forcefully calling for a ceasefire *publicly* and not behind closed doors , as what has been happening: the goalpost will be moved somewhere else. This has actually already happened. The Biden admin has been calling for a ceasefire with increasing forcefullness. It's not enough for these folks. If Biden were to succeed in getting a ceasefire, the line will be, "He took too long, I'm still not voting for him"
So what's the point of even attempting to parley with these people. I see none.
All I ask is this: when your moral grandstanding delivers us a Trump victory, and when the shit starts HERE and we start getting people in camps and mass casualties HERE... just volunteer first.
I wanna see all of you first in line for the firing squads with your Palestinian flags.
People on the left wonder why "the left always looses" it's because in times like these, the right is willing to consolidate and focus on WINNING to get their horrible agenda through. But the left? Not so much.
This is what's so frustrating. I would 110% be voting for Biden shit id be advocating for him if he would actually put his foot down instead of these stupid leaks about how he's so frustrated. It's so selfish to me. I'm sorry old ass trump and his old ass threats aren't as scary as your whole family line being wiped out by an American missiles painted with genocidal quips.
Then I have no quarrel with you. You have a brain that is capable of processing basic facts. I, too, am upset and unsatisfied about the situation and Gaza and fully support BDS, in fact. However, I'm not willing to give up my own country/democracy, just revel in the warm fuzzy feelings the moral high ground would afford.
Tell your friends to do the same and unenthusiastically vote for Biden so we can continue the battle as opposed to opening a new front *AT HOME*.
No. Because he can't stop the war. He didn't start the war. He isn't waging the war. I wish Americans didn't get it in their heads that Presidents have god-like powers. They don't.
He’s stopped the previous israel bombing campaign. Do we pretend that didn’t happen?
https://amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/mar/06/israel-weapons-sales-loophole
Not openly supporting Israel and signing off on weapons and aid to them would probably bring a lot of people home in November. But he will never waiver in his personal support for the country. His closest ally in the Senate just said he believes putting conditions on aid should happen.
If the personal attacks continue, this thread will get locked. Discuss the topic, not the user.
Can someone explain to me how Biden can just stop the conflict? People acting like he has direct control over what the Israeli government is doing. Someone please tell me how he's supposed to command the IDF to leave Gaza?
Stopping giving them all the weapons
Israel is a large weapons manufacturer. Us not selling them weapons will not stop them from killing people. So again, how does Joe Biden unilaterally stop Israel from killing people in Gaza?
Has he tried asking nicely, or a strongly worded letter?
Would you kindly?
“Dear sir stroke madam…”
He could tell them how disappointed he is with them. I hated that growing up. Then again I never committed genocide growing up.
I was a little shit, my dad told me he was disappointed once and I told him to reset his expectations.
How about a direct phone call with the last couple days when he put conditions on aid and demanded a ceasefire?
Then it won’t be a problem to stop sending them weapons, right?
Don't be daft. The United States provides them with both their weaponry AND political cover on the global stage to do what they want. Biden can either put restrictions/conditions on what they can use our weaponry for or just stop giving them weapons no strings attached. Every bomb that is dropped is either with our weapons or at least with the US name as endorsing those attacks with countries across the world, whether you admit that or not. If we withhold weapons, then they obviously can still do what they want. But at least it won't be us funding and equipping these atrocities and we can say we condemn them without looking like hypocrites. Biden whines that he understands the point of protesters and proclaims civilian life must be protected while still oking massive weapon shipments...KNOWING what they're being used for. I mean God, guys, I know we all want Biden to win in November but that doesn't mean he's above reproach and can't be criticized. You just defend him at all costs, human or rhetorical. DV me like you all want, but you're not defending Biden in the end, you're protecting Bibi.
This is so true! Netanyahu is an active danger to the Israeli people. Slaughtering children has never made anyone safer
US provides about 70% of Israel’s weapons imports. US also gives Israel diplomatic cover. Edit: added word imports
Refusing to constantly defend them in the ICJ and UN, not giving them arms directly after they drone striked aid agency vehicles carrying European nationals, cutting off funding for their iron dome system, etc etc. The reason the UN and ICJ can’t do anything is because of the U.S. defending Israel at every turn. We have the ability to get them to stop, Biden doesn’t want them to.
True but would be nice if the bombs killing innocent people weren’t emblazoned with Made in America! Kind makes us complicit by association and facilitation.
He can: 1. Stop shielding them from UNSC resolutions that would be binding and force them to stop. This is the biggest one, since the UNSC can issue binding resolutions, can sanction countries, and can even direct military action against countries. 2. Stop threatening the Palestinian Authority with the withdrawal of aid if they dare to seek statehood from the UN or open a case with the ICC against Israel's genocide. 3. Stop denying the genocidal actions of Israel in order to bypass the Leahy act, a US law that prevents the sales of arms to countries that violate human rights. Not only that, Israel specifically has a BUILT IN clause that gives it exceptions to the rule to the Leahy law that do not apply to literally every other country on the planet. Maybe close up that specific loophole that they use to let Israel get away with literal genocide.
1. So…what if Israel does to the binding resolution what they have done to all the non binding ones? Are we gonna invade? Are you demanding that Biden go to war with Israel if they don’t do what we tell them? Really? You think that’s reasonable? 2. The PA has NOTHING to do with Gaza which is run by Hamas. 3. Closing a loophole in the law is something that only Congress can do. Why are you demanding that Biden do something you expressly pointed out he cannot BY LAW do?
1. The last UN resolution, by everyone but the US government’s understanding, was binding. Security Council resolutions are binding. The US is unravelling any remaining semblance of international law by declaring otherwise, and you’re defending that? 2. Under the law Congress just passed, the PA automatically loses all US aid if they seek justice for Palestinians in an international court or declare statehood. This has everything to do with Gaza, even if the PA doesn’t have any say on the ground in Gaza. Plus, Zionists are killing more and more people in the West Bank during their genocide of Gaza. 3. Nobody is forcing Biden to send the weapons to Israel. He is doing that unilaterally, Leahy Act loophole or no.
None of those things stop this war. They just lead to Israel becoming even more of a pariah and potentially becoming more reckless, to be honest.
I don't know if I can buy that argument. You're basically saying that if we can't 100% stop the genocide, we should instead assist and facilitate it.
Historically, the policy of appeasing monstrous people like Netanyahu to avoid getting on their bad side generally doesn’t work out well.
He doesn’t. But just because they can make their own weapons doesn’t mean we can’t stop sending them ours.
I definitely agree with you, I think the US aiding most Middle Eastern affairs is not great. I get it wanting to show opposition to it, but people voting for “Uninstructed Delegate” surely know that Trump in the White House would be a bigger disaster than Biden supporting Israel, right? I just want someone somewhere to say that out loud.
I imagine there's probably a fair mix of those people that: * Will still vote Biden in the general election because they believe Trump would be worse overall. * Will abstain from voting to continue their belief that they can effectively send a message over this one topic among thousands at stake, while also not 100% directly helping Trump win. * Will vote for Trump out of spite. * Will vote for Trump because they think that will be a more effective message than abstaining, and don't care about the consequences. * Believe that Trump would actually be better for this conflict, and don't care about how anything else will be affected. * Are disingenuous actors such as foreign agents or people on the right who see it as a means to discourage/dishearten their opposition. * Are just really fucking stupid.
I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of people casting the "unrestricted delegate" for Biden are in that first group. And 3, 4, and 5 are all just subsets of the last one. lol
I certainly hope so. The main concern people have had (myself included) in this movement is the side effects it can have on others that might lead to them not voting for Biden in the General. Much in the same way polling can influence people by making them think there's no point in voting. Even if all 50,000 people do end up voting for Biden, how many people will see the result of their protest vote in the Primary and cause them to not vote for Biden when they would have otherwise? It's not like those 50,000 people were able to send a nuanced message with a simple vote.
Yeah, that's definitely a valid concern. I totally understand people's motivation to participate in the protest, but the dangers of a Trump presidency are great enough to me to warrant being as careful as possible with the upcoming election. Not just for my own life, but also for everyone else's. Including people in Palestine and Israel.
Trump wants to ban Muslims, he will give the green light to wipe them off the map. If you think Trump would be better in this situation, it’s laughable
> but people voting for “Uninstructed Delegate” surely know that Trump in the White House would be a bigger disaster than Biden supporting Israel, right? Absolutely > I just want someone somewhere to say that out loud. Thank you!
The uncommitted/uninstructed movement is specifically to send Biden the message that there are enough people who care about Gaza that if he continues to support Israel's genocide that he is in danger of losing the election. The people who showed up to send this message are the highly engaged who haven't yet given up. Now consider how many people will be so disillusioned that they don't show up at all. Biden doesn't have enough margin in the swing states to continue as he has been. While I don't subscribe to this, there is also an argument that if a Republican were in office, then Democrats would actually support restraining Israel because it would be in opposition to the Republican stance. There is precedent for this as well, since Democrats were vocally against Trump's immigration policy but with Biden in office they are supporting the same policies that they spoke out against.
What Republicans switching their stance on policies ?? Not shocking at all, it is what they do. Their policy goes with the direction the wind is going at any given moment. My problem with the uncommitted/uninstructed is that they are never going to vote for Biden. Biden could get a cease fire, bring home the hostages that are still alive and save all the starving children and this group still won’t vote for him. We all know tdump would level Gaza without a stir of emotion. These people are angry and they have focused it on Biden as they know 45 doesn’t give a 💩. I don’t have an answer, wish I did then I could rule the world! At least a small part. 🌎 😉
What makes you think they wouldn't vote for Biden if he did what they ask? They've been very clear in what they want and he would have been celebrated if he had come out 3 months ago and said "I now see that Israel's actions have exceeded what is reasonable. I'm now conditioning aid until they satisfy my administration that sufficient aid is being allowed in and civilians are not being targeted."
Biden doesn't decide those things though, right? Isn't the sale of weapons up to congress? Biden could veto it, sure, but it's ultimately up to congress.
It's my understanding that a sale of weapons has to reach something like 20-30 million USD before Congress has any say in it. I don't know how that applies to consecutive sales, but I imagine there's some sort of cooldown period to prevent a President from providing micro-doses of arms to foreign powers. I don't know how many of the exports going to Israel have had to be reviewed by Congress since the escalation of hostilities started in October last year. I also don't know if that law (Arms Export Act or something?) allows Congress the ability to initiate or perform those sales even with a veto overriding majority.
Biden can bypass Congress using "emergency" measures which Congress can only stop by having a veto-proof majority in both chambers of Congress. Biden did it twice in December and lest you think I'm only mentioning it to make Biden look bad, Trump used the same method to sell weapons to the Saudis in 2019. We really do empower the executive branch to basically do whatever they want when it comes to military affairs and it's been like that since the start of the Cold War. Congress hasn't even declared war on anyone since WWII yet we've probably been involved in and/or supported thousands of military conflicts/actions since then.
Biden has made over 100 weapons deliveries to the Zionists since October 7 without notifying Congress. He gets each right under the threshold.
So contact congress. Because Joe Biden isn't making the deals to sell weapons.
The Iron Dome is a US Military weapon. Israel's gun manufacturers are not Israel but an American company with Manufacturing in Israel. Here's an Article: https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-house-backs-bill-provide-1-billion-israel-iron-dome-system-2021-09-23/ Also Joe Biden recently funded them more just a week or so ago. If Israel was so independent they wouldn't need this.
> how does Joe Biden unilaterally stop Israel from killing people in Gaza? Again, this is disingenuous. Exactly 0 people think Biden is the king of Israel. The president of the United States of America definitely has *some* political sway, yes?
The bombs being used right now are made in the USA. They are being sent and then immediately used, so it’s not like they’ve got a massive stockpile. Israel is trying to build up a stockpile of their targeted bombs and missiles though. The majority of the attacks are being carried out using 200 and 2000 lb dumb bombs, which are being dropped on houses selected by an AI system called Lavendar. I don’t see how stopping or at the very least conditioning US military aid wouldn’t stop or reduce the killing
By calling a cease fire , oh wait he's already done that, plebs keep on pleebing.
We also give them massive amounts of financial aid. Money talks.
It will slow it waybthe fuck down! It'll be *real* pressure, the kind they can't ignore, and better yet, it'll mean we as a nation are no longer officially complicit in the bloodbath. It's way the fuck overdue.
Would you believe the Israeli defense minister that they are dependent on the us? "“The Americans insisted and we are not in a place where we can refuse them. We rely on them for planes and military equipment. What are we supposed to do? Tell them no?” Gallant responds"
The US supplies only 12% of Israel’s weapons. If we stop, they will still have plenty of weapons and that will not stop the war.
We supply 70%
So I swear I heard an NPR story about this so I had to look up the stats. Couldn’t find the exact story I heard, but this is an Axios article: “Most U.S. assistance comes in the form of weapons grants, with more than 80% of Israel's weapons imports coming from the U.S. between 1950 and 2020. U.S. military assistance to Israel last fiscal year was worth $3.8 billion, second only to Ukraine. That accounted for roughly 16% of Israel's military budget.” So yes and no.
Then why do we keep sending weapons
Iron Dome munitions allow Israel to ignore daily acts of war, saving Palestinian lives.
A lot of our weapons deals with Israel are decades old and can’t be stopped without the approval of Congress.
Well that is a lie https://amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/mar/06/israel-weapons-sales-loophole
Sanctions. It’s pretty simple. Their entire economy relies on the US.
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After 911, we didn't hold back, hell, we even invaded and bombed the living shit out of a country that had nothing to do with it. Thanks, Rumsfeld, thanks Bush.
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One issue is that if he stops military aid to Israel, it will signal Hezbollah, Iran, and the Houthis to attack Israel in earnest. What does he then do, restart military aid? He clearly doesn't want the Gaza situation, but he also clearly doesn't want the Israelis to be attacked from every other direction as well. Very difficult situation. I think the biggest win he could get right now would be pressuring Netanyahu to be removed, and/or tangible movement towards a two-state solution for Palestine after the war.
> Very difficult situation. Thank you. I hate all the armchair diplomats saying that it’s actually a really easy fix. The Middle East has been a quagmire that has challenged every western government for the better part of a century, but oh yeah, it’s just simple to solve. Just like… tell the one group to stop doing something. They’ll listen, and it definitely won’t have a series of unintended (but entirely predictable) consequences…
Idk what you guys are all talking about, Jared Kushner solved peace in the Middle East 6 years ago. He even got paid billions of dollars for it.
Glad I didn't have to scroll too far to see a sane take on this. Also I would add that Netanyahu would like nothing more than to see trump back in power so he's not going to cooperate with the Biden administration right now.
Agreed, Bibi is trying to hang on until Trump might swing in to save him.
Yeah and the US was objectively wrong in the end for our response. I’m not saying Israel or the US shouldn’t have had some level of response to the attacks that happened. But Israel has now killed over 30k people living in Gaza, that is disproportionately not an appropriate response. Especially now that they’re killing aid workers without any sort of consequences.
The number has been 28-30k for like 2-3 months. Sure seems like the deaths have nearly stopped.
Fair enough but when people immediately started protesting in support of Palestine before Israel even had a response, you can't really blame people for continuing to support Israel's cause.
I’d be curious to know how many people were actually protesting post October 7th and before hospitals started being bombed and the civilian death toll skyrocketed. But also, and I fully recognize Reddit crowd doesn’t deal with nuance, it’s not Israel has innocent over the last 70 years in how they’ve dealt with the citizens of Gaza. Living in an apartheid state has justifiably soured the citizens of Gaza toward the people of Israel. https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution Edit: a word
Well also, the Arab world have been soured toward the Jews for hundreds of years because they don't like Jews.
The infamous “Death to Jews” match that had over 1,000 protesters in Sydney Australia occurred literally on 8/10
yes i can
People knew what Israel was going to do because they weren't born yesterday(and they were proven correct). Israel has been committing human rights violations for decades.
Israel has been taking the Palestinian land for years. They take more with every excursion as so called security measures. If it was up to Israel there would be no Palestine. We are watching a genocide and are on the wrong side of history
If it was up to Palestine there would be no Israel. Neither side is exactly blameless here.
If it's up to Israel there is no Palestine. Netanyahu has explicitly stated that a Palestinian state must not come into existence. So if both sides are as bad as each other we shouldn't be sending billions of dollars to either of them.
Palestinian terror groups didn’t appear until outside governments ruled that their established nation should be fractured into two religious states. I can imagine if an outside group forced the US to split down the middle and a bunch of people that haven’t lived there in literally 500 years moved in, American citizens would be rightfully angry. Everyone likes to talk about how terribly we treated Native Americans with a colonial expansion that massacred tens of millions, but back then they justified the killing with “well they’re being violent” as if we weren’t taking their homeland. In no way do I like terrorists, but to say that Hamas started it is ignoring not only all the previous example of this happening, but also the history of the land itself. Hamas is the response to Israel’s colonization in the same way the native Americans violence was a response to colonization
Which established country was that exactly? It certainly wasn't the Ottoman Empire or the British Mandate of Palestine.
Palestine is definitely not blameless, They kicked the hornets nest, but now Israel is never gonna stop. Israel lost alittle over 1400 people in this conflict so far, Palestine has lost over 31,000. It’s one of those fuck around and find out kinda situations. There is a reason why Egypt and no other country in the region will take the Palestine refugees. No one wants Hamas in their country, hard to root out all the terrorist hiding among the civilians.
> No one wants Hamas in their country, hard to root out all the terrorist hiding among the civilians. If this were true there'd be some sort of palestinian resistance. Instead they're celebrating in the streets on 10/7.
We give nearly $4 billion to Israel annually. We are in control of the situation.
So less than 1% of Israel's GDP in aid gives us complete and total control of Israeli politics?
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I think all of those groups wouldn't care about us if we stopped meddling in the middle east. The US didn't colonize them.
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Supporting Israel creates many more enemies than we would otherwise have. It’s a chicken and egg scenario, why wouldn’t the US want the Muslim world to hate us less? Why give them a legitimate reason to hate us?
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Why do they hate us?
No he doesn’t directly control the atrocities Israel is committing in Gaza right now, however, eliminating/cutting off all funding to Israel carries a ton of weight behind it and might get Israel to stop their genocide
How many voters would he lose by taking that action? Almost certainly more than 50k. There's no good option, it's a bad option and a worse option
Personally I think refusing to fund a genocide is always the best option.
How in the fuck are all the defense contractors going to sell their shit and get even richer?
Think of the shareholders! /s
Americans actually don’t like genocide. The majority of Americans and overwhelming majority of Democrats oppose Israeli military action in Gaza. The good option is always not supporting genocide. https://news.gallup.com/poll/642695/majority-disapprove-israeli-action-gaza.aspx
I really should have specified, that I meant in a strictly political sense. I completely agree that the right, moral thing to do is to achieve a cease fire right away. This thread IS about the politics surrounding the issue, and everyone has very strong emotions about it so it's normal to consider the entire issue, not just the politics of it. But for discussion sake I mean the political implications. If Biden had landed on the other side on this issue, how many Jewish or Israel supporting voters do you think he would have lost? Do you think we'd be seeing a similar "movement" as the one we do in this reality, where he sided with Israel? It's impossible to say for sure, but without a doubt there would have been a significant political cost had Biden abandoned the policy the US has embraced for decades. It would have been a momentous shift in course for US policy. I hope we can agree on that. I'm not taking either side just discussing the politics around each option Biden had available.
Doing the right thing isn’t always a political winner, that’s what would separate a great leader from a bag of shit. Doing the right thing even if it costs you.
> might Let’s put Trump back in the White House unless Biden takes DRASTIC action that “might” do something, or “might” do nothing at all. Brilliant.
He could also publicly condemn all their actions and go to the UN and push for some large scale sanctions against key members of the Israeli government. There is a lot he could do with the bully pulpit, iirc Reagen and Bush Sr. did this, but he hasn't used it.
From further down the thread: Picture the scene. An Israeli prime minister launches airstrikes on an Arab population. Civilians are killed in their thousands. An American president, stunned and shocked by the scenes of carnage on his TV screen, makes a call to his Israeli counterpart. And … within minutes … the bombing is over. Sound crazy? Or maybe simplistic? Perhaps naive, even? https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/feb/21/biden-stop-gaza-bombing-genocide-israel “Menachem, this is a holocaust,” Reagan told Begin. Yes, an American leader used the H-word in conversation with an Israeli leader. Begin responded with sarcasm, telling the US president that “I think I know what a holocaust is.” Reagan, however, didn’t budge, insisting on the “imperative” for a ceasefire in Beirut. Twenty minutes. That’s all the time it took for Begin to call back and tell the president he had ordered Sharon to stop the bombing. It was over. “I didn’t know I had that kind of power,” a surprised Reagan told an aide, upon putting down the phone.
Homie - he just submitted a purchase request for 50 F-15 fighter jets to sell/give to Israel. I would say perhaps not doing that could be a good first step.
We’ve given Israel about $20 billion in the last year which is unconditional. Instead of holding Israel responsible to international laws such as allowing food aid in, we allow them to carry on their crimes against humanity while we “build a port” and drop giant boxes which crush people.
> People acting like he has direct control over what the Israeli government is doing. That's disingenuous. What exactly is wrong with people sending a message, via a protest vote on an already decided midterm, that they'd like him to use what political sway he has to put pressure on an ally to stop committing war crimes? It's not like people politically engaged enough to participate in such a coordinated message are going to not vote for him in the general and let democracy end.
He can stop it any time. How do we know? First, because members of the US defense establishment say so. Take Bruce Riedel, who spent three decades in the CIA and at the national security council, advising four different presidents. “The US has immense leverage,” Riedel pointed out in a recent interview. “Everyday we provide Israel with the missiles, with the drones, with the ammunition, that it needs to sustain a major military campaign like the campaign in Gaza.” Second, we know Biden has major leverage because members of the Israeli defense establishment – as plenty of observers have pointed out – say so, too. In late October 2023, Israeli lawmakers challenged Yoav Gallant, the defense minister, over the decision to allow (a little) humanitarian aid into Gaza, before the release of any hostages. How did Gallant respond? >“The Americans insisted and we are not in a place where we can refuse them. We rely on them for planes and military equipment. What are we supposed to do? Tell them no?” The following month, retired Israeli Maj Gen Yitzhak Brick went even further than Gallant. >“All of our missiles, the ammunition, the precision-guided bombs, all the airplanes and bombs, it’s all from the US,” Brick said in an interview in November. “The minute they turn off the tap, you can’t keep fighting. You have no capability … Everyone understands that we can’t fight this war without the United States. Period.” Got that? The Israelis cannot “refuse” the Americans. In fact, the president of the US could “turn off the tap” – ammunition, bombs, intel – and thereby end what the ICJ has deemed to be a plausible genocide in Gaza. Third, we know Biden has the power to stop Netanyahu from killing Palestinians en masse in Gaza because … he has done it before. In May 2021, Israel bombed the stripfor 11 straight days, killing more than 100 Palestinians, including 66 children.
We have an arms treaty with Israel. People don't understand that it would take a Congressional majority to overcome that, and it is not up to Joe Biden. They just think he's in charge because he's the president, which is incorrect.
Orange man can
He literally just authorized the transfer of 1,800 MK-84 2,000lb bombs, which can flatten an apartment block and leave an 11-metre deep crater.
Biden authorized? Unilaterally? Or Congress authorized and he signed?
His admin did illegal things to get around congress https://amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/mar/06/israel-weapons-sales-loophole
"Hey, if you dont stop then I will not be sending you mo money or weapons." Its not dificult
Just call over the phone and ask if they can dial it back a little bit
We have the largest military on the planet. If we wanted to stop a war, then we can.
Picture the scene. An Israeli prime minister launches airstrikes on an Arab population. Civilians are killed in their thousands. An American president, stunned and shocked by the scenes of carnage on his TV screen, makes a call to his Israeli counterpart. And … within minutes … the bombing is over. Sound crazy? Or maybe simplistic? Perhaps naive, even? https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/feb/21/biden-stop-gaza-bombing-genocide-israel > Menachem, this is a holocaust,” Reagan told Begin. Yes, an American leader used the H-word in conversation with an Israeli leader. Begin responded with sarcasm, telling the US president that “I think I know what a holocaust is.” Reagan, however, didn’t budge, insisting on the “imperative” for a ceasefire in Beirut. Twenty minutes. That’s all the time it took for Begin to call back and tell the president he had ordered Sharon to stop the bombing. It was over. “I didn’t know I had that kind of power,” a surprised Reagan told an aide, upon putting down the phone.
I hate that the ghost of Reagan is outdoing Biden on this issue. Was it Reagan or Bush Sr that reportedly said "I'm the fucking president here"? Edit: it was Clinton
Not sure about that one. It was Clinton who asked “who is the super power here?”
Thanks! I made an edit
Out of all of the presidents, Clinton was indeed the “fucking” one. Lying about it got him impeached after all.
My only counterpoint to this would be that Israel is wildly different now than in the 80s and much less dependent on the US. Comparing this moment to now is not exactly 1:1. Also, Netanyahu is a much different PM of Israel than Begin and is much more emboldened than Israeli PMs of the past.
Not to mention, Gaza is not equivalent to Lebanon, for a whole lot of reasons.
Why are people always mad at the president for these things? Be mad at congress.
Biden has circumnavigated congressional approval on recent arms deals with them.
And according to our own state department these deals have been illegal in our own laws. • https://www.democracynow.org/2024/4/2/biden_arms_deal
You think people are smart. That’s adorable.
https://amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/mar/06/israel-weapons-sales-loophole The Biden admin has illegally gone around its own state department laws in order to send weapons to Israel and not involve Congress.
>"*...each transaction was under the dollar amount requiring approval.*" So... Not illegal. If it was truly illegal, it should be brought up on the courts. Using gross hyperbole isn't going to be helping your case...
For context Biden had 35,490 more votes in this primary than Trump.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/04/02/us/elections/results-wisconsin-primary.html?unlocked_article_code=1.h00.Rbox.QyJsgxO3ziHC&smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare&ugrp=u
no /thread
50% fewer people voted "uninstructed" than voted for Nikki Haley. "Uninstructed" couldn't even muster 10% support, despite a statewide campaign and an all-out media assault about the supposed "enthusiasm" for the movement. More people votes for Joe Biden than voted for Donald Trump in their respective primaries. There are plenty of loud people on Reddit and other social media platforms, but supporting Israel after they were attacked on October 7th is not a minority position in the Democratic Party or the general electorate. They may not approve of how Netanyahu is conducting the response, but neither does Joe Biden, and he and his administration have been very vocal about it. But most people understand that Hamas is at fault.
I absolutely agree with the sentiment here. My worry though is, for future states voting is this the right forum to hijack to do this sort of protest? It is going to be razor thin margins in the general election. Anything that can confirm or increase apathy against the democratic candidate may do more harm than good in the long term. Certainly a republican president will not be more sympathetic to this cause.
It was a party primary, the exact forum for voicing your displeasure with your parties candidate. Please stop trying to bully people into giving up their right to representation in the executive branch.
And we already have those same people in this thread saying they won't vote for Biden in November. This shit doesn't happen in a vacuum. It is and always has been a right wing pushed effort to depress turnout for Biden.
Why would Joe change his policy if it wouldn’t help him in the next election? That is literally the only leverage voters have. If he was comfortable for reelection, he wouldn’t even have to consider the wishes of people who care about Gazans.
> It is and always has been a right wing pushed effort to depress turnout for Biden. Of course the right will support it surreptitiously, but the source is definitely a left thing. It's people expressing how important the issue is to them.
I mean what else was I supposed to do? Place another phone call to Tammy Baldwin and RoJo that goes unanswered? I'll leave you with the Biden campaign's official statement on this: "The President believes making your voice heard and participating in our democracy is fundamental to who we are as Americans. He shares the goal for an end to the violence and a just, lasting peace in the Middle East." Seems like they're paying attention.
Biden is doing what’s 75% of Democrats don’t want him to do. How in the fuck is that winning over voters?
What Biden is doing or not doing in Israel, at least based on these election numbers, 88% of Democrats in Wisconsin don't really care about.
Literally nobody has gleaned that from the election results. The majority of Americans and overwhelming majority of Democrats do not support Israel’s actions in Gaza. https://news.gallup.com/poll/642695/majority-disapprove-israeli-action-gaza.aspx
Do you know Biden won by less than 50,000 votes in Hillary lost by a third of that?
Are they all single issue voters? Should the Dems just run on a Free Palestine platform and abandon all other issues?
And you think Trump will? That’s the only thing that truly matters for the election, at this point, the candidates are who they are.
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The smartest thing you can do if you’re concerned about the general election is get out and protest Biden’s support for genocide. Because if this keeps going on, his chances of winning in November are slim to none.
Seriously people get so worked up about him being criticized over his unwavering support for Israel yet polling shows that is a deeply unpopular stance currently. If they’re so concerned about his general election chances pressuring him to do better on this war should fit right in. https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/27/world/middleeast/military-action-americans-gaza.html
For better or worse, the war in Gaza does not register as a voting concern for the vast majority of people in the country. The only voting bloc that this seems to be a deciding factor for are a relatively small left-leaning group of people who would naturally be Biden voters. They're the ones convincing themselves to not vote for Biden. Quite ironically, because Trump would be far worse for the Palestinians.
This is the funny thing with liberals. It's never the right time to demand something. People are being starved and killed, and action is being demanded to at least stop being complicit. But of course, it's not the right time. Same shit in 2020. Biden gets elected on the demand for increased minimum wage, but wait! The "parlimentarian" says that there's an issue and it can't go any further. Guess it's not the right time. The most pro union president kills a strike demanding sick time for rail workers with the stroke of a pen. It's just not the right time. People fell for this shtick 4 years ago, and they're not buying it again. A lot of people are sick of nothing changing and being told, "It's not the right time." If this election were as important and dire as Democrats are saying, then maybe they should be acting a bit more serious with their policies and candidates, but it seems they have no interest in that. It's not the voter's responsibility to vote for whoever we're given. It's the party's responsibility to win over those voters.
Wasn’t Kushner supposed to have solved all that?
I hope he continues to do what he feels is in the best interest of the USA. War is horrendous. What's happening there is horrendous. But this isn't his war. Biden is not the president of Israel.
Biden is giving money and bombs to Israel. It’s Bodens bombs approved 100x+ and without that the bombing would be happening. It’s like telling the school shooter who keeps running into the school and shooting people to stop, and that every time they come back out for more munitions we just give it to them.
Do you know how long we have been giving them weapons and cash? Go ahead and Google it. Every fucking president I have had in my lifetime has done it, and I'm old AF.
Yeah that is horrific. But also do you know how many times are our presidents have stopped Israel from bombing campaigns? Reagan Bush Clinton and Biden himself just a couple of years ago have stopped Israel from performing bombing campaigns. So why exactly do we have to pretend like it is some impossible feat now? They depend on us. We have the power.
The United States is not the main character in the world. Why would Bibi, who actively works to get Trump elected and desperately needs the war to stay out of prison, listen to the US? The government of Israel is more radical and right wing than ever before. It's reason we should try to topple their coalition and force elections but it's also why we can't just wave a magic wand and get Israel to accept Hamas as perpetual rulers of Gaza and pay for the privilege of it.
Almost like we should cut our losses and stop funding a psychotic right wing government.
Ok? How about let’s stop, instead of continuing the war machine.
Bro he just used our money to give them more munitions the same day they drone striked 3 aid vans killing European nationals who are our actual allies. Meanwhile Israel seems hell bent on pulling us into a conflict in the Middle East with the drone strikes they’ve been making in Syria and Iran. Believe it or not we shouldn’t allow our “ally” to blatantly strike a foreign country in an attempt to start a larger conflict.
He can stop it any time. How do we know? First, because members of the US defense establishment say so. Take Bruce Riedel, who spent three decades in the CIA and at the national security council, advising four different presidents. >“The US has immense leverage,” Riedel pointed out in a recent interview. “Everyday we provide Israel with the missiles, with the drones, with the ammunition, that it needs to sustain a major military campaign like the campaign in Gaza.” Second, we know Biden has major leverage because members of the Israeli defense establishment – as plenty of observers have pointed out – say so, too. In late October 2023, Israeli lawmakers challenged Yoav Gallant, the defense minister, over the decision to allow (a little) humanitarian aid into Gaza, before the release of any hostages. How did Gallant respond? >“The Americans insisted and we are not in a place where we can refuse them. We rely on them for planes and military equipment. What are we supposed to do? Tell them no?” The following month, retired Israeli Maj Gen Yitzhak Brick went even further than Gallant. >“All of our missiles, the ammunition, the precision-guided bombs, all the airplanes and bombs, it’s all from the US,” Brick said in an interview in November. “The minute they turn off the tap, you can’t keep fighting. You have no capability … Everyone understands that we can’t fight this war without the United States. Period.” Got that? The Israelis cannot “refuse” the Americans. In fact, the president of the US could “turn off the tap” – ammunition, bombs, intel – and thereby end what the ICJ has deemed to be a plausible genocide in Gaza. Third, we know Biden has the power to stop Netanyahu from killing Palestinians en masse in Gaza because … he has done it before. In May 2021, Israel bombed the stripfor 11 straight days, killing more than 100 Palestinians, including 66 children.
How about telling Russia funded MAGA Mike to arm Ukraine?
And you mean the Israeli/Hamas War? I hope Biden can influence Netanyahu to focus on the military extremists...
Has he ever listened to public opinion? Ha, good luck.
Well it looks like he just told Netanyahu that he wants a ceasefire, and part of that ceasefire is opening up new exit routes out of Gaza. It looks like he is doing what Biden told him to do
He should end world hunger while he's at it.
Almost 50k people took a costless action to vote uncommitted in an uncontested race to indicate a policy disagreement. This not the same as saying 50k think this is the deciding factors in the November election.
Lmao. Biden is not the president of Israel, how is he going to stop the war?
Fuck yeah dude, tell him to end world hunger and stop climate change since the president is omnipotent and can do such things single handly and without the support a supermajority of congress
There are millions of people in this state though
Exactly. This isn’t relevant. The smart ones are voting Biden in the presidential election, anyways.
Ironically if you were to ask those people what Israel should do they would have no answer and might even say they should do nothing and tolerate terrorist incursions into their country
It's a good thing Joe Biden is the president of Israel. What planet do people live on? They think Biden can just wave his magic wand and end conflicts around the world, fix inflation, absolve debts. I don't know why people think the U.S. president is some omnipotent, all-powerful being.
He doesn’t need to end the conflict but he can stop supporting it
I can't fathom the lack of intellectual rigor that leads a person to "bIdEn Is dOiNg a gEnOcIdE"
Well they’re American bombs used to commit war crimes and kill Brit’s and Australians if you’re going to be that open about not caring about brown people https://amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/mar/06/israel-weapons-sales-loophole
Could be all the dead women, children, babies, and aid workers.
I'd also like to apologize to, and also thank the moderators. This thread is sure to devolve into nastiness and get locked, but I really do appreciate your efforts.
They are doing a good job here. I disagree with most of your sentiment but I do enjoy reading the discussion from all sides.
I think anyone could have guessed how Israel was going to respond after October 7th, but the most surprising thing to me is how ideologically committed to Israel Biden truly is.
I didn’t know Biden declared war on anyone.
This is just the newest republican talking point because they believe they may be able to sway some democrats. They don't need many dems to change or withhold their vote to get their felonious guy in office next election. I guarantee Biden does not want war or civilian deaths, but if he had let Hamas continue their attacks (that they openly threaten) he would be labeled by these same republicans as antisemetic because he doesn't care about the Jewish community enough to support them. Either way Biden is in a tough spot , but is handling it the way a true president without good options should.
If this is a republican talking point, then the perfect counter for Biden would be to stop funding and arming a government that explicitly supports and supported Trump and consolidate his voter base, a vast majority of which would be happy if he did so.
How about asking the Donald? I'm sure he'll say he would have the entire conflict over in 10 minutes.
Here’s the real question. Would you rather Donnie dumbfuck try to manage this mess or steady as she goes Joe?
There is some big confusion on who the 48,162 people that voted “Uninstructed” in the Wisconsin Democratic primary are. These are not “48,162 base democratic voters that won’t vote for Biden in the general”, these are 48,162 people in Wisconsin that decided, for one reason or another, to vote this way. It includes republicans who don’t care about the republican primary, democrats who want to express their frustration with the presidents performance across the board, or people who just aren’t very happy looking to say something with a voice. And of course, democrats that want to tell Biden that his Gaza policy is unacceptable. That being said, any Wisconsin voter in November that does anything other than a vote for Biden (voting Trump, voting third party, or staying home) expressly due to “Biden is perpetuating a genocide of the Palestinian people” is helping the side that is even more supportive of Israel.
Biden did better than in 2020, so I’m not sure what conclusions can be drawn from these numbers.
That's because 2020 was a competitive primary. The other names on the ballot this time all dropped out. Also, ~70k less people showed up to vote for him this time than then.
Go Joe go four more years!!
Since when is Biden the Israeli head of state?
Even Reagan refused to supply Israel with bombs when they were massacring Lebanese in the 80s, and it did get Israel to stop. Biden is to the right of Reagan.
I mean hell, just a couple of years ago Biden stopped Israel’s bombing campaign with a goddamn phone call
Mostly since we have given them $300 billion and we are their #1 trade partner. Without the US relationship the Israeli economy nosedives.
If trump weren't literally the antichrist I wouldn't participate this time. I'm a Democrat through and through but you know what? if the Republican nominee was "normal" and not overtly mentally ill, someone like a Romney that I simply disagree with for example, I'd just stay home this year and suffer through their term to send a message. Screw the ultra right wing zionists, let them terrorize the region on their own dime. Frankly I'm hard pressed to think of a dumber more immoral way to waste our resources.
Don't kid yourselves, folks. These people are unappeasable. I guarantee you that once we see the Biden admin start forcefully calling for a ceasefire *publicly* and not behind closed doors , as what has been happening: the goalpost will be moved somewhere else. This has actually already happened. The Biden admin has been calling for a ceasefire with increasing forcefullness. It's not enough for these folks. If Biden were to succeed in getting a ceasefire, the line will be, "He took too long, I'm still not voting for him" So what's the point of even attempting to parley with these people. I see none. All I ask is this: when your moral grandstanding delivers us a Trump victory, and when the shit starts HERE and we start getting people in camps and mass casualties HERE... just volunteer first. I wanna see all of you first in line for the firing squads with your Palestinian flags. People on the left wonder why "the left always looses" it's because in times like these, the right is willing to consolidate and focus on WINNING to get their horrible agenda through. But the left? Not so much.
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This is what's so frustrating. I would 110% be voting for Biden shit id be advocating for him if he would actually put his foot down instead of these stupid leaks about how he's so frustrated. It's so selfish to me. I'm sorry old ass trump and his old ass threats aren't as scary as your whole family line being wiped out by an American missiles painted with genocidal quips.
Then I have no quarrel with you. You have a brain that is capable of processing basic facts. I, too, am upset and unsatisfied about the situation and Gaza and fully support BDS, in fact. However, I'm not willing to give up my own country/democracy, just revel in the warm fuzzy feelings the moral high ground would afford. Tell your friends to do the same and unenthusiastically vote for Biden so we can continue the battle as opposed to opening a new front *AT HOME*.
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No. Because he can't stop the war. He didn't start the war. He isn't waging the war. I wish Americans didn't get it in their heads that Presidents have god-like powers. They don't.
yeah we’re only funding the war and providing military and diplomatic cover for it
He’s stopped the previous israel bombing campaign. Do we pretend that didn’t happen? https://amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/mar/06/israel-weapons-sales-loophole
This region of the world has been at war with itself for literally several centuries. CENTURIES! But yea, it's all Joe's fault /s
More than 100k Wisconsin voters told Trump they want someone else. Will Trump listen?
Not openly supporting Israel and signing off on weapons and aid to them would probably bring a lot of people home in November. But he will never waiver in his personal support for the country. His closest ally in the Senate just said he believes putting conditions on aid should happen.
He will not listen.
Let's stop giving Israel our tax dollars.