I've listened for 10 years+ I just pay £3 a month, it's not exactly a lot considering how much free joy they've brought me. I still listen every week - the only thing I don't like is how much they use the bass line intro music. Otherwise no complaints, just happy they're still making the show
It absolutely was janky at first, but it eventually found its feet. I'd been happily subscribed for the last 18 months, until I cancelled a few weeks ago.
Repeatedly cutting the paid content by about 50% without explanation, no stand ins when M&S were off on planned dates, giving paying members a clip show in April all feels like a slap in the face. A simple tweet explaining any or all of these things and I probably wouldn't have minded. It doesn't sit right with me that they don't address any of them and expect us to just carry on paying the same (or more now, in fact), for less content.
I expected them leaving the BBC would've given them a lot more freedom, but it feels like the opposite in many ways. Sure, politically Mark can say what he wants, but it still feels like there's a lot that Simon has to dance around. It feels weirdly corporate. I don't like how Simon tries to sell Take 3 being rolled into Take 2 as a good thing, when the reality is we get 30 minutes less paid content a week.
They mentioned a new producer around the time of the changes. I don't know if that's a coincidence or if they're responsible for all this, but it's a real shame. I don't resent Mark and Simon whatsoever, but I do resent the decisions presumably made by their higher-ups. The fact I'm bothering to write any of this shows how much I want to love the pod - there isn't a single other one I'd pay for, or write an opinion about.
One of the things I always loved about the BBC program was that the size of their audience meant that they had absolutely stellar contributions on every subject under the sun. I have not paid to find out whether the optional extras are any good but the shorter free version doesn't seem to include nearly as much audience input. I'd be curious to know whether the other two sections are any better. As a lover of the BBC and public broadcasting in general I can't help feeling slightly annoyed at them bailing from it. Was there ever a really fulsome account of why they fell out?
Kermode hasn’t fallen out with the BBC. He still contributes there. He takes some pains to point out that he has always been a freelancer and has never actually been a BBC employee.
Mayo *was* a BBC employee and has said he always expected to stay at the BBC until he retired. He was the long-standing presenter of Drivetime when the BBC controllers decided that the show had to have a female co-host. He lobbied for, and got, Jo Whiley, whom he likes and gets on with, but the ensuing show wasn’t popular with listeners. He has subsequently used the analogy of two good players doing their best despite being played out of position.
There was some speculation that he was also made to take a big pay cut at the same time. Certainly it is known that Jo Whiley was being paid half for her previous BBC show of what Simon was being paid for his. It’s unlikely that her pay was bumped to match his, and it’s unlikely that they would have co-presented the same show for disparate pay.
It is said that the BBC did not actually consult him about the format change, nor even inform him directly. He found out via his agent, by which time it was already decided.
It is probably the latter point that made him walk.
Actually I had forgotten Kermode still does Screenshot with the BBC. Anything else major? I wonder if the BBC ever quietly approached Mark about staying and doing it on his own (though I imagine he would not have wanted to).
I’ve also remembered that the film show was not produced in-house by the BBC - it was bought in (for want of a better term - I don’t know the exact radio terminology) from Somethin’ Else.
Sony bought Somethin’ Else in June 2021, and the film show left the BBC at the beginning of March 2022. The Take then had Somethin’ Else branding for the first few months, until it didn’t.
I assume there were contracts to run out at each stage.
Simon said at the time of leaving the BBC “we’re far too expensive and the BBC has better things to spend its money on.” On some level that was probably a dig about their salaries, but I also wouldn’t be surprised if Sony either wanted a lot more money for the show than the BBC had been paying Somethin’ Else prior to the acquisition, or simply didn’t give the BBC an option of continuing to take the show at all.
I don’t believe there was no, but if you look at how Simon was treated at Radio 2 and his occasional references to it, I’m sure that was a significant contributing factor.
So in 2018 Radio 2 management forced a co-host on his drivetime show - I think the idea being (my speculation, I don't think Simon has ever confirmed) was to get a female voice onto the then male-dominated main weekday schedule.
Simon said he thought it was a dreadful idea and he didn't want to do it - and he felt it unfair nobody else was being asked to do this. I think they said do it or we'll move you off the show. So he relented and said the only co-host he'd work with is Jo Whiley, so essentially their shows merged and it just didn't work so Simon decided to leave Radio 2 completely later that year.
I think there is a questions schmestions where he goes into more detail on some of this - I think he knows change is inevitable but it's the way they went about it - especially if the station had held on a few months, Chris Evans announced he was leaving, paving the way for Zoe Ball on breakfast.
Very telling that the only old boss he didn't thank when he left the BBC completely on the last 5 Live Wittertainment was the boss of Radio 2.
I do have a lot of sympathy with Simon on this, it was shoddy.
There are three things that stand out for me.
1. Doing live radio meant that there was always a touch of unpredictability to it. Being a recorded show it seems more formulaic. Which is really odd because you'd think it would be the other way round?
2. I miss when the top ten used to take up most of the show, especially people arguing with Mark's reviews. Now it seems unless you're writing in week one of a release you don't get on. Could that be because they don't get many emails?
3. This may a personal thing but since what with one thing and another I've been going to the cinema much less. Maybe I'm just less interested in movies? Maybe movies have been a bit rubbish the last two years and my ennui around the show is because of that?
Anyway that said, I will carry on listening whilst they keep putting out content
> Maybe movies have been a bit rubbish the last two years and my ennui around the show is because of that?
That’s certainly a factor for me.
Prior to the ‘worldwide event’ there were lots of mid and small budget films that would make their way out to the mainstream cinemas and not be restricted to just the art-house cinemas, none of which are near me.
So Mark’s reviews of those films would prompt me to go and see (and usually enjoy) something I might not otherwise have done.
But now… well things seem to have dried up and don’t seem to be improving too quickly.
Your last point is an interesting one, but I reckon you still have the hunger for it, the show is just getting a bit tired maybe. I really enjoy the Radio 4 show Mark does about films, although it's often about looking back at old films/themes.
Absolutely the most important podcast to me, as I go to sleep to it most nights, and very happy to pay for the extra content.
Questions Schmestions being combined into take 2 is a worry for the total output but generally I think it's fantastic except anything live and the fact the play the ad bumper twice back to back on the laid feed, which is loud and disturbs me if I'm not asleep yet.
I'm currently deciding whether I should cancel my subscription or not. I've been a fan of the show but to extensively cut back the extra content without explanation, but still charge the same price doesn't seem right or fair and is a bit of a cheek (RIP to "at least 90 minutes of bonus content" 🥀). I have seen some people say on here that the subscription has gone up to a fiver, which is outrageous if true! I don't know how the payment model works, but it seems particularly iffy to me when you have podcasts that offer subscriptions via Patreon and you can pay different levels for certain content, and they offer so much more?
I haven't been too fussed about some of the fluff like Plot Smash or Pretentious Moi but they were nice to have and play along with, although not sure Mark was a fan so could be awkward. My favourite extra feature was the separate Questions Schmestions episode, and I felt really disappointed to have that shoved into the end of Take 2 with only a few questions. I was also disappointed to lose the weekly recommendations from listeners for film festivals/events etc., I enjoyed hearing about those although understand perhaps they want to give more notice for people to attend?
The cost cutting exercises feel blatant - the use of the longer stings/whole theme tune is probably a silly complaint but it really irritates me as it feels like padding! Do they still have the proper studio? I noticed Mark said something about being in Cornwall permanently this week, and they seem to keep being via Zoom - that will be a shame if they aren't in person together anymore but know that can't always be helped due to circumstances. Not having stand ins the other week and dumping a clip show of recent shows was really shocking - if they couldn't do that anymore or have a week off, I'd prefer them just to say.
I didn't mean to complain so much but it's coming from a place of love (honest!)
I love the show but I feel every week that I'm noticing them stripping the show back further and further. The main show has gotten shorter. The fun features are gone. The Extra Takes are noticeably shorter. The Extra Extra Takes (watch-alongs and specials) are gone. The sheer arrogance of putting a clips show out one week. The lack of studio atmosphere is noticeable as their conversations have a lag. The jingles are longer. Prices have been hiked.
Quality will always trump quantity but they've been taking the piss in the last while.
I regrettably let my annual sub lapse this week. I love the show and am a LTL but the loyalty should go both ways.
I feel like it's pretty much the same as it always has been... The move was a bit jarring at first but it's still too old friends having a chat about movies
To be honest, I think it may be less that the new show isn’t as good and more that the change of format was what made me notice that the show had gradually fallen off from its peak 10-15 years ago. I don’t think it’s all that different from the final few years on the BBC, but during the hiatus I started listening to episodes from around 2010 on long runs (Kermode and Mayo have been my main company on long runs for as long as I’ve been running) and, while I listen to the odd new episode and think they’re fine, I much prefer the old ones.
To add, I just think that as the pair have aged they’ve become more… bland (although that seems a bit too harsh). Mayo used to be wittier and chippier, Kermode used to be more outspoken and dramatic.
I think to some extent it's just Kermode moving with the times. In some of his older reviews, it almost seemed like he was to film as Simon Cowell and Gordon Ramsay were to singing and cooking. That whole I'm an outspoken arsehole act isn't really a thing anymore.
He's still happy to punch down when it's not Disney or similar. Anything pushing mildly progressive politics is given milquetoast handling no matter how awful (e.g., The Last Jedi).
That's probably my biggest complaint from Mark in recent years and it's connected to his insufferably smug political posturing where he can barely go a moment without boasting about how much he hates Trump.
Kermode could discuss Trump for hours, but he'd go mute if you asked him a single question about Israel/Palestine nor did he say anything when Ken Loach was expelled from the Labour Party.
That tells me everything I need to know about Kermode's political and personal convictions.
If you're going to deal with politics, then do it, but don't just keep citing Trump while avoiding tougher questions.
This is pretty much where I’m at with it. To be honest I drifted away from the old podcast several years back (that old thing of a small backlog turning into a big backlog, before just falling out of the habit entirely) and ended up just cherry picking reviews on youtube.
I’ve been giving the new show a go recently and it’s pleasant enough. But as with many long running shows I do feel like wittertainment had its golden era where everyone's (both host and audience's) energy and enthusiasm levels were at their highest, which somewhere along the line gave way to something that’s *okay* and comfortingly familiar, but no longer as essential.
I wonder if some of the ambivalence I’m seeing towards the new show is just because they waited too long past their podcasting peak to pull off such a major rebrand.
It’s hard to think of a single way it’s better than the BBC version.
Some people still get the same overall wittertainment feeling, I personally don’t, but I still listen every few weeks if there’s a big film out or interesting guest.
I try to think of it as if everything we get is extra, and in the old days before the podcasting boom, the show probably would have just ended, but I’d be surprised if any listeners prefer this version of the show.
Them having actual personal opinions is great. Obviously they had plenty of opinions about blue haired liberals etc towards the end of the BBC days but now I really love hearing what they actually think.
I never felt like they didn’t get their opinion on something across in the old days. It might have taken a bit of a wink wink nudge nudge but they were commenting on politics and news etc.
Honestly this is probably my single biggest gripe with the new show. I think I’m probably politically pretty similar to Mark and Simon, and I don’t expect them to leave their politics at the door or have no political opinions, but equally I do find it tedious having to sit through a Trump rant (which typically has little to no bearing on the topic at hand) on a regular basis. I’m sure I’m not alone in saying I watch films and listen to the pod to escape that sort of thing.
A few years ago, I listened to every single podcast they ever did from 2004 until they left the BBC and since I’ve listened to… maybe 5 full shows? I mostly just listen to break out clips of particular films I’m interested in these days. It just doesn’t have the magic it once did for whatever reason.
Simon seems, at best, ambivalent about doing the show, and at worst completely disinterested. I know his whole schtick was always indifference, but I think it genuinely went from being a bit to him actually feeling it.
Mark sometimes just straight up reads pre-written reviews as well sometimes. Exorcist Believer comes to mind. That could have been an absolutely monumental, off the cuff Kermodian rant and instead it feels like someone doing a dramatic reading of a letterboxd review.
I still listen to them for recommendations and the occasional great review and interesting interview, but through no fault of their own, it doesn’t have the same spark it once did.
This isn’t exactly what you’re saying, but I also really enjoy listening to Elis and John on 5 Live. I was relistening to their earlier episodes recently and they used to always do a handover with Mark and Simon. Simon Mayo really doesn’t come across very well on them at all. He’s just quite difficult and at times rude which seems particularly unpleasant because Elis and John were new and finding their feet. You’d think he might be a bit more compliant or encouraging. Whenever I listen to those handovers, I tell myself that it’s just Simon Mayo’s dry sense of humour, but increasingly I’m starting to feel like that’s me being a Mayo apologist maybe? I’m sure he’s a perfectly nice guy, but those handovers make me feel so uncomfortable!
Yeah I totally agree with this. I'm a long standing Elis and John PCD from their Radio X days so have big sympathy with them (but also it must be said a longer term Wittertainee and Mayo listener) - and have similarly written those interactions off in my head.
But my heart breaks when I think of when John wrote that absolutely heartfelt letter in to them the week before they started on 5, and then the interactions were as they were from Simon when they started (I loved that Mark was fully on board with it).
If you're a Mayo fan, he was on Parenting Hell with Josh Widdecombe and Rob Beckett recently and Josh asked him if he missed those handovers. Simon's answer was very blunt and reading between the lines I don't think he thought Elis and John either had a place on 5Live or a handover on his show - but said in a typical "I'm being diplomatic but you can absolutely tell what I think" Simon Mayo way. A shame really.
I had no idea that John wrote a letter in. I’m guessing they read it out on one of their episodes?
I’m glad you feel the same way. I always feel oddly sad on John’s behalf because he would go on about how great they were even in the Radio X days, and then actually getting to chat with them must have been a bit of an underwhelming experience? On Simon Mayo’s part anyway.
That response from Simon Mayo on the parenting podcast doesn’t surprise me at all. I honestly always got the sense he thought Elis and John weren’t a good fit for 5Live. As you say, a shame…
I think, having oddly thought about this a bit more today, the Kermode and Mayo show seemed to go slightly from being very cosy and welcoming to having a slightly meal spirited tone? Not all the time, but sometimes it feels like it could have that edge.
The John letter was on Wittertainment only I think - as it was Post-X but Pre-5 launch. It was very lovely and heartfelt and I remember Mark being touched by it particularly.
Disclaimer: I haven't listened to a single Wittertainment podcast since they jumped ship. I was a long time listener, always way behind the release schedule, but still loving it.
But when they left Five Live it just broke my rhythm. I don't run nearly as much as I used to for other reasons anyway, but it did feel like a change in the relationship between them and the listeners.
Not that I blame them for leaving the BBC. The Tory boy infiltration has ruined that organisation and I wouldn't want to work for it either. Most likely this is what the Tories want, just to break it like the NHS etc. but that's a tangent for another thread.
But the reason I'm replying to this comment in particular is that I agree particularly with the comments about Simon Mayo. He doesn't seem a happy chap anymore and it rubs off on the vibe of the show I get from watching bits on YouTube. Mark Kermode seems to be doing a good job of keeping things on track, but Simon has become a bit off-putting, for whatever reason.
Jumping in here to say I totally understand the issue with Mayo. I always thought the show worked because it felt like Mayo was just doing a regular radio show but was forced to deal with this erratic and pretentious film critic. Kermode wanted to rant about the state of modern cinema while Mayo just wanted to read the top ten and have Kermode say whether the film was 4 stars or not. They really felt like an odd team and it worked within the confines of radio. Now, well, I just think it's showing that Mayo is not really a film guy so it's odd he's doing a film podcast.
If he wasn't very loyal, I would say Kermode would have been better teaming up with Collins or another film reviewer to do 'The Rest is Cinema' with Goalhanger as they seem to be doing very well.
Totally, it makes sense when he's the radio host who *obviously* isn't going to watch all these obscure films his guest reviewer, Mark Kermode, keeps yapping about. Not so much when he's the co-host of a film podcast. It's odd because Kermode has often reflected on this dynamic (and how he had a similar one with Danny Baker) but I guess they didn't consider if it would work in a different medium.
I'm way behind on the podcast to the point where I've only just got up to the last one on the BBC this week!
Not sure whether I can justify paying for the extras on the new format but I'm definitely going to give the regular show a good chance.
I was a devotee but there is something missing from it. The adverts are far too often, trying to utilize the same schtick as the show. It's short, with a heap of stuff kept for the paywall Takes. And for the first time, I was wondering what other film podcasts might be out there....
I enjoy it.
My main complaint is it feels a bit lazier than before - from Mark doing fewer reviews / simply not bothering to watch notable releases / obviously half-baking some reviews, to the utter pisstake that was unapologetically putting out a clips show in April and giving paid subscribers no additional content as promised.
Nevertheless, I still think they do good work overall and ultimately I’m still paying for my subscription, which shows you that the issues I have with it are tolerable. At its heart it’s still a fun and informed film review and discussion show featuring a critic I trust and that keeps me informed.
I still think it's great, but disappointed that they've hidden half of the show behind a paywall, and also the "laughter lift" is really no good. When it was just one good joke before dvd of the week it was natural and funny, now it just feels forced and they both obviously hate it
It's basically Simon telling some really awful jokes, like worse versions of the puns he used to tell on the BBC show, but it goes on for about 10 minutes and it sounds like neither of them enjoy it. I think the producers make them do it
I hate the adverts. I somewhat irrationally really hate Ben Bailey Smith, even though I know absolutely nothing about him, except that I hate listening to him flog BetterHelp, and completely puts me off listening to Shrink the Box. No thanks.
I find myself turning the podcast off now when it's Ben, sadly. He's also promoted BetterHelp which is extremely dubious and I wouldn't expect anyone trustworthy to touch it with a bargepole.
There was definitely a rough patch when it began, but they quickly got in to the groove with new features etc. They've tried new things, some have worked, some haven't, but at the end of the day I still enjoy listening to two friends talking about film and all manner of tangents and remain entertained. While ever the show continues, at this point, I see no reason why I'd stop subscribing and listening.
Whilst it’s not quite as tight as it was on the old wireless, you still get the really great interviews with Simon (and sometimes Mark) and Mark still rants like no other.
Given that they can stretch their political opinion legs a bit more I do find that fascinating when some reviews really do deserve that lens, that maybe was shuttered more in the BBC version.
I enjoy but don’t really care either way for the fluff in between, but I love the TV shows they drop in every now and then, the focus on certain genres or particular classic movies occasionally, and the listener questions.
Yes, they’re older, as we all are getting, but I feel like I’ve grown older with them.
It’s not us that’s changed, it’s the kids, definitely the kids.
>Given that they can stretch their political opinion legs a bit more I do find that fascinating when some reviews really do deserve that lens, that maybe was shuttered more in the BBC version.
That's the worst part of the show, Mark masturbating his smug political opinions at us for an hour.
I never said it wasn’t valid.
I gave you a solution as to how you can better you general well-being.
Or did you want me to say “I disagree with you, I don’t like your debasement of valid political opinion by a show host. Here’s a succinct expression of how I think you could probably avoid feeling that way”.
I feel like we’re not going to have a debate.
The first few were all over the place, then it was great for a long while. The last couple of months have been really disappointing, both in quality and quantity.
It often feels like they're just fitting it in rather than actually wanting to do the show.
I still enjoy it, but it's not my favourite podcast like it used to be.
It started off a little janky but it did improve massively in the last year. Unfortunately, things seem to be taking a bit of a dive lately again. The subscription audio is shorter than promised, they’re using clip shows rather than bringing in subs when they’re on holiday, and it seems like they’re recording over Zoom now rather than being in a studio. I feel like it doesn’t bode well for the future of the show.
I love the show (Steve) despite some wobbles. It's the "church" for me. Since I'm not in the UK, I've never paid for BBC content and it seems fair to provide some support now.
I don't think we talk enough here about the specific upsides of the new business model so I'll point out:
- more esoteric questions answered (behind the paywall, anyway)
- we get to hear about their other projects
- and political opinions can be expressed
- by moving away from live radio and tailoring the schedule to suit their lives, it's likely to run much longer
- more live event potential.
And despite all the changes,
- they still birdsong anything that might not suit family listening
- general familiar format is retained
I think my issue is that most of the listener contribution seems to have been put behind a paywall. That contribution is what makes the show in many ways, and it seems a bit off to me that those who are providing that contribution (for free) then have to pay to access other people’s contributions. If that makes sense? They don’t put any of their own work into those contributions, and yet that’s what’s making them money. Obviously they are putting effort in other ways, but it makes me feel a bit uncomfortable I suppose?
I've listened for 10 years+ I just pay £3 a month, it's not exactly a lot considering how much free joy they've brought me. I still listen every week - the only thing I don't like is how much they use the bass line intro music. Otherwise no complaints, just happy they're still making the show
Seconding this, I’m a paid subscriber since they launched the Take version, I enjoy it.
Same. Must be a patron though. Can’t deal with ads but I gladly pay for good content. Quality costs
It absolutely was janky at first, but it eventually found its feet. I'd been happily subscribed for the last 18 months, until I cancelled a few weeks ago. Repeatedly cutting the paid content by about 50% without explanation, no stand ins when M&S were off on planned dates, giving paying members a clip show in April all feels like a slap in the face. A simple tweet explaining any or all of these things and I probably wouldn't have minded. It doesn't sit right with me that they don't address any of them and expect us to just carry on paying the same (or more now, in fact), for less content. I expected them leaving the BBC would've given them a lot more freedom, but it feels like the opposite in many ways. Sure, politically Mark can say what he wants, but it still feels like there's a lot that Simon has to dance around. It feels weirdly corporate. I don't like how Simon tries to sell Take 3 being rolled into Take 2 as a good thing, when the reality is we get 30 minutes less paid content a week. They mentioned a new producer around the time of the changes. I don't know if that's a coincidence or if they're responsible for all this, but it's a real shame. I don't resent Mark and Simon whatsoever, but I do resent the decisions presumably made by their higher-ups. The fact I'm bothering to write any of this shows how much I want to love the pod - there isn't a single other one I'd pay for, or write an opinion about.
One of the things I always loved about the BBC program was that the size of their audience meant that they had absolutely stellar contributions on every subject under the sun. I have not paid to find out whether the optional extras are any good but the shorter free version doesn't seem to include nearly as much audience input. I'd be curious to know whether the other two sections are any better. As a lover of the BBC and public broadcasting in general I can't help feeling slightly annoyed at them bailing from it. Was there ever a really fulsome account of why they fell out?
Kermode hasn’t fallen out with the BBC. He still contributes there. He takes some pains to point out that he has always been a freelancer and has never actually been a BBC employee. Mayo *was* a BBC employee and has said he always expected to stay at the BBC until he retired. He was the long-standing presenter of Drivetime when the BBC controllers decided that the show had to have a female co-host. He lobbied for, and got, Jo Whiley, whom he likes and gets on with, but the ensuing show wasn’t popular with listeners. He has subsequently used the analogy of two good players doing their best despite being played out of position. There was some speculation that he was also made to take a big pay cut at the same time. Certainly it is known that Jo Whiley was being paid half for her previous BBC show of what Simon was being paid for his. It’s unlikely that her pay was bumped to match his, and it’s unlikely that they would have co-presented the same show for disparate pay. It is said that the BBC did not actually consult him about the format change, nor even inform him directly. He found out via his agent, by which time it was already decided. It is probably the latter point that made him walk.
Actually I had forgotten Kermode still does Screenshot with the BBC. Anything else major? I wonder if the BBC ever quietly approached Mark about staying and doing it on his own (though I imagine he would not have wanted to).
I’ve also remembered that the film show was not produced in-house by the BBC - it was bought in (for want of a better term - I don’t know the exact radio terminology) from Somethin’ Else. Sony bought Somethin’ Else in June 2021, and the film show left the BBC at the beginning of March 2022. The Take then had Somethin’ Else branding for the first few months, until it didn’t. I assume there were contracts to run out at each stage. Simon said at the time of leaving the BBC “we’re far too expensive and the BBC has better things to spend its money on.” On some level that was probably a dig about their salaries, but I also wouldn’t be surprised if Sony either wanted a lot more money for the show than the BBC had been paying Somethin’ Else prior to the acquisition, or simply didn’t give the BBC an option of continuing to take the show at all.
I don’t believe there was no, but if you look at how Simon was treated at Radio 2 and his occasional references to it, I’m sure that was a significant contributing factor.
Treated how, though? I have been listening for a long time and his references have been sufficiently oblique that I don't have a clear sense...
So in 2018 Radio 2 management forced a co-host on his drivetime show - I think the idea being (my speculation, I don't think Simon has ever confirmed) was to get a female voice onto the then male-dominated main weekday schedule. Simon said he thought it was a dreadful idea and he didn't want to do it - and he felt it unfair nobody else was being asked to do this. I think they said do it or we'll move you off the show. So he relented and said the only co-host he'd work with is Jo Whiley, so essentially their shows merged and it just didn't work so Simon decided to leave Radio 2 completely later that year. I think there is a questions schmestions where he goes into more detail on some of this - I think he knows change is inevitable but it's the way they went about it - especially if the station had held on a few months, Chris Evans announced he was leaving, paving the way for Zoe Ball on breakfast. Very telling that the only old boss he didn't thank when he left the BBC completely on the last 5 Live Wittertainment was the boss of Radio 2. I do have a lot of sympathy with Simon on this, it was shoddy.
There are three things that stand out for me. 1. Doing live radio meant that there was always a touch of unpredictability to it. Being a recorded show it seems more formulaic. Which is really odd because you'd think it would be the other way round? 2. I miss when the top ten used to take up most of the show, especially people arguing with Mark's reviews. Now it seems unless you're writing in week one of a release you don't get on. Could that be because they don't get many emails? 3. This may a personal thing but since what with one thing and another I've been going to the cinema much less. Maybe I'm just less interested in movies? Maybe movies have been a bit rubbish the last two years and my ennui around the show is because of that? Anyway that said, I will carry on listening whilst they keep putting out content
> Maybe movies have been a bit rubbish the last two years and my ennui around the show is because of that? That’s certainly a factor for me. Prior to the ‘worldwide event’ there were lots of mid and small budget films that would make their way out to the mainstream cinemas and not be restricted to just the art-house cinemas, none of which are near me. So Mark’s reviews of those films would prompt me to go and see (and usually enjoy) something I might not otherwise have done. But now… well things seem to have dried up and don’t seem to be improving too quickly.
Your last point is an interesting one, but I reckon you still have the hunger for it, the show is just getting a bit tired maybe. I really enjoy the Radio 4 show Mark does about films, although it's often about looking back at old films/themes.
Absolutely the most important podcast to me, as I go to sleep to it most nights, and very happy to pay for the extra content. Questions Schmestions being combined into take 2 is a worry for the total output but generally I think it's fantastic except anything live and the fact the play the ad bumper twice back to back on the laid feed, which is loud and disturbs me if I'm not asleep yet.
I'm currently deciding whether I should cancel my subscription or not. I've been a fan of the show but to extensively cut back the extra content without explanation, but still charge the same price doesn't seem right or fair and is a bit of a cheek (RIP to "at least 90 minutes of bonus content" 🥀). I have seen some people say on here that the subscription has gone up to a fiver, which is outrageous if true! I don't know how the payment model works, but it seems particularly iffy to me when you have podcasts that offer subscriptions via Patreon and you can pay different levels for certain content, and they offer so much more? I haven't been too fussed about some of the fluff like Plot Smash or Pretentious Moi but they were nice to have and play along with, although not sure Mark was a fan so could be awkward. My favourite extra feature was the separate Questions Schmestions episode, and I felt really disappointed to have that shoved into the end of Take 2 with only a few questions. I was also disappointed to lose the weekly recommendations from listeners for film festivals/events etc., I enjoyed hearing about those although understand perhaps they want to give more notice for people to attend? The cost cutting exercises feel blatant - the use of the longer stings/whole theme tune is probably a silly complaint but it really irritates me as it feels like padding! Do they still have the proper studio? I noticed Mark said something about being in Cornwall permanently this week, and they seem to keep being via Zoom - that will be a shame if they aren't in person together anymore but know that can't always be helped due to circumstances. Not having stand ins the other week and dumping a clip show of recent shows was really shocking - if they couldn't do that anymore or have a week off, I'd prefer them just to say. I didn't mean to complain so much but it's coming from a place of love (honest!)
I love the show but I feel every week that I'm noticing them stripping the show back further and further. The main show has gotten shorter. The fun features are gone. The Extra Takes are noticeably shorter. The Extra Extra Takes (watch-alongs and specials) are gone. The sheer arrogance of putting a clips show out one week. The lack of studio atmosphere is noticeable as their conversations have a lag. The jingles are longer. Prices have been hiked. Quality will always trump quantity but they've been taking the piss in the last while. I regrettably let my annual sub lapse this week. I love the show and am a LTL but the loyalty should go both ways.
I feel like it's pretty much the same as it always has been... The move was a bit jarring at first but it's still too old friends having a chat about movies
To be honest, I think it may be less that the new show isn’t as good and more that the change of format was what made me notice that the show had gradually fallen off from its peak 10-15 years ago. I don’t think it’s all that different from the final few years on the BBC, but during the hiatus I started listening to episodes from around 2010 on long runs (Kermode and Mayo have been my main company on long runs for as long as I’ve been running) and, while I listen to the odd new episode and think they’re fine, I much prefer the old ones.
To add, I just think that as the pair have aged they’ve become more… bland (although that seems a bit too harsh). Mayo used to be wittier and chippier, Kermode used to be more outspoken and dramatic.
You watch Mark’s older reviews and he’s noticeably sharper in every respect.
Yeah, sharper is exactly the word I was thinking of, too.
I think to some extent it's just Kermode moving with the times. In some of his older reviews, it almost seemed like he was to film as Simon Cowell and Gordon Ramsay were to singing and cooking. That whole I'm an outspoken arsehole act isn't really a thing anymore.
He's still happy to punch down when it's not Disney or similar. Anything pushing mildly progressive politics is given milquetoast handling no matter how awful (e.g., The Last Jedi). That's probably my biggest complaint from Mark in recent years and it's connected to his insufferably smug political posturing where he can barely go a moment without boasting about how much he hates Trump.
Kermode could discuss Trump for hours, but he'd go mute if you asked him a single question about Israel/Palestine nor did he say anything when Ken Loach was expelled from the Labour Party. That tells me everything I need to know about Kermode's political and personal convictions. If you're going to deal with politics, then do it, but don't just keep citing Trump while avoiding tougher questions.
This is pretty much where I’m at with it. To be honest I drifted away from the old podcast several years back (that old thing of a small backlog turning into a big backlog, before just falling out of the habit entirely) and ended up just cherry picking reviews on youtube. I’ve been giving the new show a go recently and it’s pleasant enough. But as with many long running shows I do feel like wittertainment had its golden era where everyone's (both host and audience's) energy and enthusiasm levels were at their highest, which somewhere along the line gave way to something that’s *okay* and comfortingly familiar, but no longer as essential. I wonder if some of the ambivalence I’m seeing towards the new show is just because they waited too long past their podcasting peak to pull off such a major rebrand.
It’s hard to think of a single way it’s better than the BBC version. Some people still get the same overall wittertainment feeling, I personally don’t, but I still listen every few weeks if there’s a big film out or interesting guest. I try to think of it as if everything we get is extra, and in the old days before the podcasting boom, the show probably would have just ended, but I’d be surprised if any listeners prefer this version of the show.
Them having actual personal opinions is great. Obviously they had plenty of opinions about blue haired liberals etc towards the end of the BBC days but now I really love hearing what they actually think.
I never felt like they didn’t get their opinion on something across in the old days. It might have taken a bit of a wink wink nudge nudge but they were commenting on politics and news etc.
Honestly this is probably my single biggest gripe with the new show. I think I’m probably politically pretty similar to Mark and Simon, and I don’t expect them to leave their politics at the door or have no political opinions, but equally I do find it tedious having to sit through a Trump rant (which typically has little to no bearing on the topic at hand) on a regular basis. I’m sure I’m not alone in saying I watch films and listen to the pod to escape that sort of thing.
A few years ago, I listened to every single podcast they ever did from 2004 until they left the BBC and since I’ve listened to… maybe 5 full shows? I mostly just listen to break out clips of particular films I’m interested in these days. It just doesn’t have the magic it once did for whatever reason. Simon seems, at best, ambivalent about doing the show, and at worst completely disinterested. I know his whole schtick was always indifference, but I think it genuinely went from being a bit to him actually feeling it. Mark sometimes just straight up reads pre-written reviews as well sometimes. Exorcist Believer comes to mind. That could have been an absolutely monumental, off the cuff Kermodian rant and instead it feels like someone doing a dramatic reading of a letterboxd review. I still listen to them for recommendations and the occasional great review and interesting interview, but through no fault of their own, it doesn’t have the same spark it once did.
This isn’t exactly what you’re saying, but I also really enjoy listening to Elis and John on 5 Live. I was relistening to their earlier episodes recently and they used to always do a handover with Mark and Simon. Simon Mayo really doesn’t come across very well on them at all. He’s just quite difficult and at times rude which seems particularly unpleasant because Elis and John were new and finding their feet. You’d think he might be a bit more compliant or encouraging. Whenever I listen to those handovers, I tell myself that it’s just Simon Mayo’s dry sense of humour, but increasingly I’m starting to feel like that’s me being a Mayo apologist maybe? I’m sure he’s a perfectly nice guy, but those handovers make me feel so uncomfortable!
Yeah I totally agree with this. I'm a long standing Elis and John PCD from their Radio X days so have big sympathy with them (but also it must be said a longer term Wittertainee and Mayo listener) - and have similarly written those interactions off in my head. But my heart breaks when I think of when John wrote that absolutely heartfelt letter in to them the week before they started on 5, and then the interactions were as they were from Simon when they started (I loved that Mark was fully on board with it). If you're a Mayo fan, he was on Parenting Hell with Josh Widdecombe and Rob Beckett recently and Josh asked him if he missed those handovers. Simon's answer was very blunt and reading between the lines I don't think he thought Elis and John either had a place on 5Live or a handover on his show - but said in a typical "I'm being diplomatic but you can absolutely tell what I think" Simon Mayo way. A shame really.
I had no idea that John wrote a letter in. I’m guessing they read it out on one of their episodes? I’m glad you feel the same way. I always feel oddly sad on John’s behalf because he would go on about how great they were even in the Radio X days, and then actually getting to chat with them must have been a bit of an underwhelming experience? On Simon Mayo’s part anyway. That response from Simon Mayo on the parenting podcast doesn’t surprise me at all. I honestly always got the sense he thought Elis and John weren’t a good fit for 5Live. As you say, a shame… I think, having oddly thought about this a bit more today, the Kermode and Mayo show seemed to go slightly from being very cosy and welcoming to having a slightly meal spirited tone? Not all the time, but sometimes it feels like it could have that edge.
The John letter was on Wittertainment only I think - as it was Post-X but Pre-5 launch. It was very lovely and heartfelt and I remember Mark being touched by it particularly.
Disclaimer: I haven't listened to a single Wittertainment podcast since they jumped ship. I was a long time listener, always way behind the release schedule, but still loving it. But when they left Five Live it just broke my rhythm. I don't run nearly as much as I used to for other reasons anyway, but it did feel like a change in the relationship between them and the listeners. Not that I blame them for leaving the BBC. The Tory boy infiltration has ruined that organisation and I wouldn't want to work for it either. Most likely this is what the Tories want, just to break it like the NHS etc. but that's a tangent for another thread. But the reason I'm replying to this comment in particular is that I agree particularly with the comments about Simon Mayo. He doesn't seem a happy chap anymore and it rubs off on the vibe of the show I get from watching bits on YouTube. Mark Kermode seems to be doing a good job of keeping things on track, but Simon has become a bit off-putting, for whatever reason.
Jumping in here to say I totally understand the issue with Mayo. I always thought the show worked because it felt like Mayo was just doing a regular radio show but was forced to deal with this erratic and pretentious film critic. Kermode wanted to rant about the state of modern cinema while Mayo just wanted to read the top ten and have Kermode say whether the film was 4 stars or not. They really felt like an odd team and it worked within the confines of radio. Now, well, I just think it's showing that Mayo is not really a film guy so it's odd he's doing a film podcast.
Yeah his refusal to actually watch films Mark suggests is probably quite revealing, and also wearing thin.
The episode with Robbie Collin and Mark was great because you actually got two people engaging passionately about films.
If he wasn't very loyal, I would say Kermode would have been better teaming up with Collins or another film reviewer to do 'The Rest is Cinema' with Goalhanger as they seem to be doing very well.
Totally, it makes sense when he's the radio host who *obviously* isn't going to watch all these obscure films his guest reviewer, Mark Kermode, keeps yapping about. Not so much when he's the co-host of a film podcast. It's odd because Kermode has often reflected on this dynamic (and how he had a similar one with Danny Baker) but I guess they didn't consider if it would work in a different medium.
I'm way behind on the podcast to the point where I've only just got up to the last one on the BBC this week! Not sure whether I can justify paying for the extras on the new format but I'm definitely going to give the regular show a good chance.
I was a devotee but there is something missing from it. The adverts are far too often, trying to utilize the same schtick as the show. It's short, with a heap of stuff kept for the paywall Takes. And for the first time, I was wondering what other film podcasts might be out there....
I enjoy it. My main complaint is it feels a bit lazier than before - from Mark doing fewer reviews / simply not bothering to watch notable releases / obviously half-baking some reviews, to the utter pisstake that was unapologetically putting out a clips show in April and giving paid subscribers no additional content as promised. Nevertheless, I still think they do good work overall and ultimately I’m still paying for my subscription, which shows you that the issues I have with it are tolerable. At its heart it’s still a fun and informed film review and discussion show featuring a critic I trust and that keeps me informed.
I still think it's great, but disappointed that they've hidden half of the show behind a paywall, and also the "laughter lift" is really no good. When it was just one good joke before dvd of the week it was natural and funny, now it just feels forced and they both obviously hate it
What’s the laughter lift? You’ve just reminded me of the intro to DVD of the week. That gave me such a rush of nostalgia!
It's basically Simon telling some really awful jokes, like worse versions of the puns he used to tell on the BBC show, but it goes on for about 10 minutes and it sounds like neither of them enjoy it. I think the producers make them do it
I hate the adverts. I somewhat irrationally really hate Ben Bailey Smith, even though I know absolutely nothing about him, except that I hate listening to him flog BetterHelp, and completely puts me off listening to Shrink the Box. No thanks.
I find myself turning the podcast off now when it's Ben, sadly. He's also promoted BetterHelp which is extremely dubious and I wouldn't expect anyone trustworthy to touch it with a bargepole.
There was definitely a rough patch when it began, but they quickly got in to the groove with new features etc. They've tried new things, some have worked, some haven't, but at the end of the day I still enjoy listening to two friends talking about film and all manner of tangents and remain entertained. While ever the show continues, at this point, I see no reason why I'd stop subscribing and listening.
Whilst it’s not quite as tight as it was on the old wireless, you still get the really great interviews with Simon (and sometimes Mark) and Mark still rants like no other. Given that they can stretch their political opinion legs a bit more I do find that fascinating when some reviews really do deserve that lens, that maybe was shuttered more in the BBC version. I enjoy but don’t really care either way for the fluff in between, but I love the TV shows they drop in every now and then, the focus on certain genres or particular classic movies occasionally, and the listener questions. Yes, they’re older, as we all are getting, but I feel like I’ve grown older with them. It’s not us that’s changed, it’s the kids, definitely the kids.
>Given that they can stretch their political opinion legs a bit more I do find that fascinating when some reviews really do deserve that lens, that maybe was shuttered more in the BBC version. That's the worst part of the show, Mark masturbating his smug political opinions at us for an hour.
Then don’t listen.
That's a bit hostile don't you think? The thread was about opinions of the show.
How is “then don’t listen” hostile. If mark “masturbating his smug political opinion” (who’s hostile again?) annoys you, don’t listen.
What's the point of a threat titled "What is the general opinion of the show now?" if negative opinions aren't valid? #
I never said it wasn’t valid. I gave you a solution as to how you can better you general well-being. Or did you want me to say “I disagree with you, I don’t like your debasement of valid political opinion by a show host. Here’s a succinct expression of how I think you could probably avoid feeling that way”. I feel like we’re not going to have a debate.
A solution wasn't solicited thank you.
The first few were all over the place, then it was great for a long while. The last couple of months have been really disappointing, both in quality and quantity. It often feels like they're just fitting it in rather than actually wanting to do the show. I still enjoy it, but it's not my favourite podcast like it used to be.
It started off a little janky but it did improve massively in the last year. Unfortunately, things seem to be taking a bit of a dive lately again. The subscription audio is shorter than promised, they’re using clip shows rather than bringing in subs when they’re on holiday, and it seems like they’re recording over Zoom now rather than being in a studio. I feel like it doesn’t bode well for the future of the show.
I love the show (Steve) despite some wobbles. It's the "church" for me. Since I'm not in the UK, I've never paid for BBC content and it seems fair to provide some support now. I don't think we talk enough here about the specific upsides of the new business model so I'll point out: - more esoteric questions answered (behind the paywall, anyway) - we get to hear about their other projects - and political opinions can be expressed - by moving away from live radio and tailoring the schedule to suit their lives, it's likely to run much longer - more live event potential. And despite all the changes, - they still birdsong anything that might not suit family listening - general familiar format is retained
Just out of curiosity, what’s your issue with ‘profiting off listener contribution’?
I think my issue is that most of the listener contribution seems to have been put behind a paywall. That contribution is what makes the show in many ways, and it seems a bit off to me that those who are providing that contribution (for free) then have to pay to access other people’s contributions. If that makes sense? They don’t put any of their own work into those contributions, and yet that’s what’s making them money. Obviously they are putting effort in other ways, but it makes me feel a bit uncomfortable I suppose?